So Old, So Young Book Club

Summary

Bad on Paper Podcast: "So Old, So Young" Book Club Episode Date: March 25, 2026 Hosts: Becca Freeman & Olivia Muenter

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Episode Overview

In this March book club episode, Becca and Olivia discuss So Old, So Young by Grant Gender—a novel that follows six friends across two decades, exploring friendship, adulthood, and all the messiness in between. The conversation dives deep into the book’s structure, its realistic portrayal of relationships, life milestones, friend group dynamics, and unforgettable party scenes, with both hosts sharing how the novel mirrors and differs from their own experiences.

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Highs and Lows (00:29–09:35)

Olivia’s High (00:38)

• Spontaneous solo road trip after a book event in Portland, Maine; visited several bookstores, treated herself for her birthday.
• "I haven't done, like, a spontaneous road trip maybe ever. I am a big planner...but I just kind of let myself do whatever I wanted." (01:19, Olivia)
• Birthday was low-key: antiques, book shopping, cake, TV.

Bookstore Haul (02:51)

• Bat Cove Books: So Old, So Young
• Lupin Books: Strangers (Bell Burden), Good People (Patmina Sabit)
• Perkins Cove Books: Maine (J. Courtney Sullivan)
• Barnes & Noble: Wait for Me (Amy Jo Burns), In Her Defence (per Grace’s rec)

Becca’s High (04:04)

• Boston trip to see her friend's kids and celebrate a friend's 40th birthday.
• "Easy to get to Boston...got to hang out with my friend's kids all day and it was so, so fun." (04:45, Becca)

Discussing Shifting Friend Dynamics (05:20)

• Olivia notes how the book made her reflect on her own friend group, especially as friends start having kids.
• "I feel like you just...do it well, caring about other people's kids is what I'm trying to say." (05:20, Olivia)
• Becca: "That was one of the dynamics that...most drew me to this book." (05:30, Becca)

Lows (05:34)

• Olivia: “No real lows,” just the weather.
• Becca: Anxiety about starting her third book; writer’s block and fear of beginning.
• "I'm not on the road, but I'm, like, in the car in the driveway..." (08:42, Becca)

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“So Old, So Young” Book Discussion

Book Overview (10:53)

• The novel follows six friends from college through five parties over 20 years.
• Takes place at pivotal gatherings and charts changes: love, marriage, children, addiction, and loss.

First Impressions (11:26)

• Olivia: Loved the book, thought it was "so readable" despite many characters. Found them messy but deeply real.
• "I both liked and disliked pretty much all of them in some way." (11:26, Olivia)
• Becca: “Everyone felt really real...believable.” (12:01, Becca)

Standout Scenes (12:07)

• The Halloween party—tension and foreshadowing amid a slow-motion personal disaster.

Thematic Breadth and Relationship Spectrum (12:19)

• Marriage, divorce, having children, not having children, death, addiction, and affairs.
• "You got such a smorgasbord of issues." (12:19, Becca)

Personal Connection to the Book (13:08)

• Becca: Relatable, familiar, especially the dynamic between friends who have kids and those who don't.
• Appreciated the nuanced, evenhanded portrayal of these dynamics (Sasha/Mia) without a clear "right" side.
• "I know these people...I've been to these parties." (13:08, Becca)
• Olivia: Noted how the millennial experience differs from older generations.

Honesty About Friendship (14:41)

• Book explores things left unsaid even in close friendships.
• Olivia: “There are things that are both people are thinking, but it's...too sensitive...too honest. I appreciated that he put it all out there.”
• Becca: "That's also what makes this book so dramatic." (15:23)

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Book Structure and Craft (15:55)

Party as a Narrative Device

• Only see the friends at five parties spanning 20 years—snapshots, not a continuous story.
• Olivia: Found initial jump from party to party “a little hard,” but subsequent parties built more depth and payoff.
• Becca: Admired the author’s skill at “weaving backstory in...no info dumping.”

Writing Process Insights (18:47)

• Grant Gender rewrote the novel many times; “zero words from his first draft ended up in the final draft.” (18:20, Becca)
• Olivia: Surprised, as the finished prose feels “so easy and it flows so well.” (18:47, Olivia)

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If Your Life Were Five Parties... (19:22–32:26)

Olivia’s Five (Funny, Poignant, Personal)

1. College frat party (drinking, solo cups as shoes, unrequited crush).
2. 20th birthday abroad (“vodka gummy bears” with cactus liquor).
3. Girls’ trip post-college, which took on meaning after a friend’s sudden passing.
4. The funeral—“string of social gatherings that are very weird.”
5. Pandemic wedding; most friends absent. “Encapsulated everything about who I was...what the world was like.” (24:44, Olivia)

Becca’s Five

1. Boston New Year’s party—messy, “crying at parties” era, iconic recaps.
2. Beta Breakers party in San Francisco: “make new friends, keep the old” era.
3. New York City work party (at BaubleBar). “Everyone being so ambitious...ambitious, glamorous.” (29:42, Becca)
4. COVID Zoom happy hour: “It was fun, and then you realize: this isn’t really fun.” (30:33)
5. Book launch for The Christmas Orphans Club: “I felt so loved...really important as entering a different era of my career.” (31:14)

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Friend Group Dynamics & Character Points of View (32:26–43:15)

Which Characters Resonate?

• Olivia gravitates toward Mia, drawn to her nuance, uncertain choices.
• Becca: Identifies with Mia and also found Richie’s chapters compelling—self-awareness after addiction, “richness in his interior monologue.”
• Discussion of Nina: Limited chapters but “so much empathy” due to vulnerability and social anxiety.

Author’s Intent (35:12)

• Grant Gender: “I created a friend group made up of six people, all of which were versions of various neuroses of mine..." (35:18)
• Both hosts note how relatable and distinct the characters are.

Real-Life Friend Group Comparisons (37:24)

• Becca: Maintains same group of friends from college: rare, “these relationships are...hard work.”
• Olivia: Smaller, more compartmentalized friend groups.
• Both reflect on the work, discomfort, and evolution in long-term friendships.

Friendships and Life Stages (41:15)

• Noted how kids, geography, and priorities shift things—sometimes uneasily.
• "You change, you want to change, but you don't want the friendship to change—and that's actually impossible in some ways." (38:49, Olivia)
• Mia/Sasha dynamic: tension between being left out and being overwhelmed with motherhood, neither side “right” or “wrong.”
• Hipha Palapu’s quote: “Friendships can be for a reason, a season, or a lifetime.” (41:59, Becca)

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Portrayal of Friend & Romantic Breakups, Addiction, and Realism (47:11–53:14)

Friendship Breakups

• Becca discusses her own painful friend breakup and the lack of coverage in fiction and real life.
• Appreciates book’s “imperfect” handling—how things fester, perspective-bound misunderstandings.

Complicated Romantic Ties

• Olivia: “The way that complicated everything I found really interesting. Not necessarily relatable, but really well done.” (49:17)

Addiction Portrayal

• Richie’s arc seen as nuanced; recovery as nonlinear.
• “You’ll try again—and that's really it. That is recovery.” (50:54, Olivia)

Romantic Relationships: Real or Too Pessimistic?

• Both hosts agree the book's partnerships are “not all rainbows and butterflies”—with divorce/breakup maybe warranted.
• “None of these people belong together...we should be getting some more divorces in here.” (52:25, Becca)
• Olivia: “It felt real in a pessimistic kind of way.” (52:25)

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Authenticity, Side Characters & Standout Scenes (53:14–57:24)

Cast of Side Characters (53:30)

• Reoccurring background faces add emotional realism and gossip to the group.

Goldfish Scene (54:03)

Memorable Quote (54:03–56:03, Becca)

• Becca shares Sasha’s Petco breakdown monologue as “a manifesto for modern motherhood...womanhood.”

“I have 85 people coming to my house in 90 minutes, half of whom are under the age of 12...” — Sasha (54:03–56:03, read by Becca)

Male Author, Female Characters

• Surprisingly authentic—Olivia questions if author has kids (he doesn’t), but praises both parenting and childfree perspectives.

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Maintaining Long-Term Friendships as Lives Diverge (57:24–62:37)

• Acceptance of “ebbs and flows” is key (“sometimes it’s going to be quieter, they’re going to be busier...but we always have this bond.” 57:42, Olivia)
• Becca: “Sometimes, you have to travel, you have to do more of the work [to keep friendships alive].”
• Kids’ ages, life stages—everything changes, especially "under five."

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Unpacking the Plot Device: Who Died? (62:37–64:33)

• The book starts with the knowledge that one friend has died, a device that threads suspense.
• Both hosts say it wasn’t the driving force for reading; the answer (Adam) felt “so unfair, but honestly, that, that's life.” (64:14, Olivia)
• Adam’s kindness made his death more poignant.

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The Ending & Multi-POV Craft (64:33–66:06)

• Both liked the ending; Becca: Appreciates how Adam’s death brings healing, but not perfection, to the group. “There was a strong sense of inevitability about it.” (64:43)
• Distinct character voices avoid confusion, even with a large cast.

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Read-Alike Recommendations (66:06–68:52)

• The Celebrants by Steven Rowley (friendship over decades)
• The Interestings by Meg Wolitzer (art camp friends through adulthood)
• Olive by Emma Gannon (childfree/parent dynamics)
• One Star Romance by Laura Henkin (life milestones, friendship over time)

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What Else Are They Reading? Obsessions & Recs (72:26–77:36)

Olivia’s “Obsessed With”

• Cora at Flo’s Hot Dog Stand (“Shout out to Cora. You are my obsession.” 72:12)
• Book rec: Good People by Patmina Sabeit ("Such a page turner…I absolutely loved this book." 73:58)

Becca’s “Obsessed With”

• Uptai Thai restaurant in Manhattan.

Currently Reading

• Becca: Pineapple Street by Jenny Jackson (Brooklyn family drama), Vacationland by Meg Mitchell Moore (“beach read but much more drama filled than frothy,” 77:24)
• April's book club pick: Good People by Patmina Sabeit.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

On Characters’ Messiness:

“I both liked and disliked pretty much all of them in some way.” (11:26, Olivia)

On Millennial Friendship & Choices:

“I don't think I've seen [the having kids/not having kids dynamic] deeply explored in other books...I really liked that because it's something that I feel like I'm talking about so much with my day to day life.” (13:08, Becca)

On Writing Multi-POV:

“It just seems so easy and it flows so well. So it's strange to think that he had to work through draft and draft and draft...” (18:47, Olivia)

On Maintaining Friendships:

“Some people aren't good with texting...as our lives get busier...it becomes more complicated. But understanding what is important to your friends in that moment…is just what's most important.” (57:42, Olivia)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Highs & Lows: 00:29–09:35
• Book Overview & First Impressions: 10:53–13:08
• Relationship Dynamics Explored: 12:19–15:55
• Book Structure Discussion: 15:55–19:22
• Five Parties Game: 19:22–32:26
• Favorite Characters & Voice: 32:26–36:33
• Friendship in Real Life vs Fiction: 36:33–43:15
• Breakups, Addiction, and Relationships: 47:11–53:14
• Memorable Scenes (Goldfish Monologue): 54:03–56:03
• Long-Term Friendships as Adults: 57:24–62:37
• Who Died? Plot Device: 62:37–64:33
• Ending & Structure Praise: 64:33–66:06
• Read-Alike Recommendations: 66:06–68:52
• Obsession/Reading Picks: 72:26–77:36

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Final Thoughts

Becca and Olivia enthusiastically recommend So Old, So Young for its authentic, dramatic, but never melodramatic, portrayal of adult friendships and life changes. They found it deeply relatable, whether or not you have a big friend group, as well as rich fodder for in-person book club conversation.

Next Book Club Pick: Good People by Patmina Sabeit

To join the discussion: Find Bad on Paper on Instagram or their Facebook group.

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Transcript

[A]

Hi, everyone, and welcome to Badon Paper Podcast. I'm Olivia Mentor.

[B]

And I'm Becca Freeman.

[A]

And today we have our March book club episode. We are talking about so Old, so Young by Grant Gender.

[B]

I'm so excited to hear what you thought about this book. But before we do that, let's hit some highs and lows. Tell me your high from this week.

[A]

Well, it hasn't been that long since we last talked, but I do have a high. And we recorded on Friday. I was in Portland. I had woken up there after an event. My birthday was on Saturday, and I fully planned after we recorded, it was about noon or so. I was like, I'm just gonna get in the car, drive home. And then I remembered as I was driving that there's this bookstore in Kennebunkport that I really liked, but it was closed the last time I was there. So I was like, you know what? Let's stop there. So I went in and they had my book, which was nice. And I treated myself to some books. I got myself a hat. And then I was like, oh, well, I could stop here and here and here. And then I just kept doing that, basically the whole drive home.

[B]

Lovely.

[A]

Yeah, it was so nice. I haven't done, like, a spontaneous road trip maybe ever. I am a big planner. I like to have a Google Doc with distances and directions and how long it's going to take me to get from A to B. But I just kind of let myself do whatever I wanted. And I met some really cool people and bought some antiques and lots of books. And I listened to author interviews for most of the way back, too. I listened to an interview with Barbara Kingsolver. You had mentioned her in our conversation on Friday, and I was like, I need to listen to more interviews with her. So it was just truly a really, really nice day. And then the next day was my birthday and we just kind of did the same thing. But around here, we just went to a bunch of antique stores and looked for stuff for our kitchen and got a new rug for upstairs for a really great price. And it was. Yeah, it was just a very, very low key, very chill, boring birthday that ended up just with us sitting on the couch watching TV and eating cake. And that was just what I needed.

[B]

This sounds like the perfect birthday for you.

[A]

Thank you. Yeah, it was. It was really, really good. So I'm feeling happy to be 33 now.

[B]

How many books would you say you acquired on this journey?

[A]

I think I bought six. Oh. So I went to four bookstores and I Got six books. Reasonable.

[B]

Tell me more. Shout out the bookstores and the books.

[A]

So my event was at Bat Cove Books in Portland, Maine, and I got. What did I get there? Oh, I. This is embarrassing. I got so old, so young there. Oh, okay. Because I was really behind in reading, so I got that. And then next I went to Lupin Books in Kennebunkport, and I got Strangers by Bell Burden and Good People by Patmina Sabit. Then I went to a new one for me, actually, Perkins Cove Books in a Gunquit. And I got Maine by J. Courtney Sullivan.

[B]

Very on brand.

[A]

Very on brand. Very, very cute bookstore. I think it's only about a year old. And then I went to a Barnes and Noble in Seabrook, New Hampshire. I got Wait for Me by Amy Jo Burns, which is the latest Jenna's Book Club pick. And I also got, per Grace's recommendation in her defence.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

That was my haul. I have so far read two of those.

[B]

Oh my gosh, I can't wait to hear about that later in the episode.

[A]

Yeah. But anyway, so that was my treat myself day and I'm feeling good. It's a busy week, but I'm feeling good. What's your high?

[B]

My high is that I went on the trip to Boston that I mentioned a couple of episodes ago in our Three Things episode. And it was partly to go see my friend's kids, but then also recently it was one of my best friends 40th birthdays, but she was away on her actual birthday, so we got to do a little like belated birthday dinner. And first of all, it was just really nice to go somewhere. I've just been at home since the beginning of the year, so it was nice to take a little trip. Easy to get to Boston. It's like a 40 minute flight from New York. And then on Sunday I got to hang out with my friend's kids all day and it was so, so fun.

[A]

That sounds great. I was actually thinking about you a lot while I was reading this book because I think you have more friends with kids and child freak. And so I was thinking about those dynamics. I think I'm just getting into that phase where people are making those decisions maybe is the better way to put it. And so I was thinking about you and how you'd said you're going up to see your friend's kid and you always just seem to make such an effort even though you don't want children. Anyway, it just came up a lot for me while I was reading the book and I Feel like you just. You do it well, caring about other people's kids is what I'm trying to say.

[B]

Thank you. Well, we'll have to talk about more of that in the book club discussion because that was one of the dynamics that I think most drew me to this book.

[A]

Yeah, I had a lot of thoughts. But anyway, that sounds like such a nice trip.

[B]

Yeah, it was really nice. What about on the low side?

[A]

Well, I mean, it's only been a few days since we last chatted and I had the birthday extravaganza days in between, so I don't really have a low. We were just talking about the weather is disgusting, so we'll take that. But it's actually not that cold. What's your low?

[B]

I love is that I'm having a lot of trepidation about actually getting started on book three. I spent the last two weeks reading. I read a bunch of books for research, both craft research and then, you know, books that feel similar tonally. And the next step, I think, is that I'm going to try to work through an outline of some sort. And I feel really a little bit blocked about it. Like, I'm scared to get going because, you know, once I get started, I know that it's going to be a long process. And I know that the answer is just that I need to start it and chip away at it a little every day. But I kind of have the idea that I need to have a completely open day or a completely open week in order to truly get started, which isn't realistic. And, yeah, I'm just like a little bit of a scaredy cat right now.

[A]

I understand that.

[B]

Did you have any trouble getting into book three? Because it. I mean, you've been working on this for a while, but it feels like you just jumped right in.

[A]

Well, sort of. I mean. Cause I started the one book and then I started the other one. So I think both times I did really just jump in. But it wasn't a linear process, that's for sure. But I do remember feeling like I didn't have a way into it until I just thought of, like a sentence, a scene one day. And then I was like, all right, I'm taking this and I'm running with it. But it really. I remember that feeling of like, kind of maybe avoidant is the right word for me anyway. Kind of like fear and avoidance and. Yeah, all of that. I remember that. And I feel that way now when I take time away from it. But remind me, did you start with an outline for Your second book.

[B]

I didn't.

[A]

Okay. And you didn't for your first.

[B]

No.

[A]

So you're taking a different approach this time.

[B]

I'm gonna try. I'm gonna try. I actually did already write about 25,000 words of this book kind of across the last few years, and they need to be reworked. So I do have a starting point. I know the first chapter. I know the first scene. Over the past couple weeks, I did have kind of an unlock about how I can achieve one of the changes that I'm trying to implement. Sorry, this is also vague, but. So I do feel like I have a little bit of the answer. And I've been thinking about this book since 2023, since I started back where we started. So I definitely know some things, but I'm feeling a little gun shy.

[A]

Yeah, it makes sense. It's a big thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Take your time.

[B]

I'm hoping that next week or the week after, I'll be able to tell you that I'm officially on the road. I was saying to my agent a couple of weeks ago, I can't remember if I'm repeating myself, but I was saying to my agent, I'm not on the road, but I'm, like, in the car in the driveway, and I'd like to be able to tell you in the next two weeks that I'm actually on the road.

[A]

Yeah, all it takes is one good day. I think one good day where you feel inspired in some way. So I get it, though. This week is really busy, and I keep thinking, like, oh, I don't have enough time to, like, really sit down and make any headway. But I really am trying to just be like, just take an hour. Just take 20 minutes. Just take 30 minutes. Just reacquaint yourself with the rhythm of that and try your best, and that's okay. It's better than nothing. Yeah, it's hard.

[B]

Yeah. Well, let's take an ad break and let's get into this book.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

All right, so I have the vague, balliest plot summary because so much happens in this book that it almost defies summarizing. But the book follows a group of six friends who all met in college and we get to know them over the course of five different parties spanning 20 years, going from right after they graduate college into their 40s. So Olivia, you just bought this book on Friday. You read it over the weekend. Tell me what you thought of this book.

[A]

I loved it. I thought it was so readable. I was so impressed because I have to admit that books with a lot of characters sometimes overwhelm me and a lot of characters at parties or scenes where there's a lot of characters together all the time. I tend to get really confused. But I just felt really in this book, from the first chapter, I loved the character development. I loved how messy everyone was. I loved how I both liked and disliked pretty much all of them in some way.

[B]

Everyone felt really real.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes, they were flawed. Everyone felt so believable to me.

[A]

Yes, the Halloween party scene. I was reading it like holding my breath but also knowing what's gonna happen in. In some way, in like a satisfying way. But yeah, I really loved it. It gave me a lot to think about as well.

[B]

Yeah, I was. When I was trying to summarize this book, I, I just realized, and I, I said this in last week's episode too, like the spectrum of relationship dynamics that this book explores. And not in a half assed way but like I felt like this really explored friendship and marriage and divorce and having children and the difficulty when some friends have children and some friends don't. Death, addiction, affairs. Like it just covered so much ground. There was so much happening even though it was kind of a slice of lifey novel, but by virtue of there being so many characters and so many different timelines, you know, you just, you really got such a smorgasbord of issues.

[A]

Is that why you chose it for book club?

[B]

No, I mean it was kind of self indulgent to choose it for book club. I'll be so curious to hear both what you think and then also what listeners think. But this book, like I know these people. I. I mean I Grant lives in New York and you know, I think maybe we have similar backgrounds of the colleges we went to, et cetera. And I was like, this all feels so familiar to me. And the way that he was able to distill it down into a book. Like these dynamics, some of these characters. Oh my gosh, it felt so close to home for me. Like I've been to these parties. Not all of them, but in some cases, like I'm like, I have been to that shitty New Year's Eve party on the Lower east side where they are out of mixers. Like this all felt so real to me. And then I think one thing that I particularly appreciated about this book was its exploration of the dynamic of friends having kids and other friends not having kids. Because I don't think I've seen that deeply explored in other books or if it's explored. It's a very one sided exploration. And I felt like this was pretty even handed where you see it from both characters, meaning Sasha and Mia's point of view. And neither is 100% right and neither is 100% wrong. And I really liked that because that's something that I feel like I'm talking about so much with my day to day life. Like it's, it's such a big topic at this phase in our life, but something I don't see in fiction as much.

[A]

Yeah, I agree. And I think also specifically with the, the kids and not having kids and that dynamic, I think especially with millennials in particular, it's like a very, you know, it's a different conversation than like our parents would be having with their friends totally that choose not to have kids. But I think something that granted so well was there were things that were explored that I think even in the closest of relationships aren't always said out loud. You know, like there are things that both people are thinking, but it's like it's too much to actually say that part because it's too sensitive of a topic or it's too honest. And I appreciated that he put it all out there in a way that felt really real.

[B]

And that's also what makes this book so dramatic. When you were talking about the Halloween party where you just know that it's gonna go sideways as the Reader. And you're watching these characters in a slow motion train wreck almost. Yeah, like the exploration of these dynamics was so dramatic.

[A]

Yeah, but not melodramatic.

[B]

No, not melodramatic, no.

[A]

It was like, oh, this feels real and terrible and like the kind of thing that happens that you think, oh, I don't think we can come back from this. But. But, you know, can you or can't you? I guess that's the question.

[B]

So the structure of this book is something that I feel like really sets it apart. So we only see these characters at five different parties over the course of, let's say, 20 years. How did that work for you? Going deep on just these instances as opposed to kind of more broadly following them?

[A]

Surprisingly, I think for me it worked on almost every level, except for, I think it was a little hard going from the first party to the second because I guess it was a little hard to form the basis of their whole friendship, of this decades long friendship from this one party. Even though I could understand it and I did a good job of it, it was a little bit difficult to understand if like these dynamics are so tricky and it's like you kind of don't like each other in a lot of ways, like, why are you continuing the friendship at this point? And I think I could have maybe understood that a bit more if it had a bit more of a solid foundation. Having said that, I think aside from that initial jump, each party worked better and better and better, you know, and made the last gathering that much more impactful.

[B]

I'm also astonished by this challenge as an author, because with the Christmas Orphans Club, each chapter is on a different Christmas and then the present timeline is this Christmas. And being able to fit in backstory and like weave in the important bits that happened in between, especially in a circumstance where people are outside of their day to day life. So by nature, at a party, you know, they're not at work, they're not with their families, they're at a party. And so you're not seeing so many aspects of their lives. And so being able to fit that in without just info dumping, like, I thought the backstory was really well woven in that I, I never felt lost. And then I thought the construction of each party, it was like five set pieces basically of these really high drama scenes when things were going to boil over. And so it, it was so satisfying to me. I, I think the structure was genius.

[A]

Yeah, I should listen to interviews with him. Do you know, was this the premise of the book from the very beginning? Do you know that?

[B]

I don't know if it was the structure of the book from the very beginning. I think it was the premise of the book, but I'm not sure if there was an alternate structure. I. I think, and I can't remember if he said this off the air or on the air, but I don't think he would mind sharing. But he said that he thought that zero words from his first draft ended up in the final draft. So I know it underwent a lot of changes, but I don't know how much of that was structural versus otherwise.

[A]

It's funny you bring that up because as I was reading, I was thinking about him saying that, and it almost felt impossible to me because there's such an ease to the writing. Like, it just seems so natural and like. Right. And I had to keep reminding myself, okay, this went through many drafts, mostly as like a confidence building exercise for myself. But it just seems so easy and it flows so well. So it's strange to think that he had to work through draft and draft and draft to get there. But I guess that's how it goes for everyone.

[B]

So the thing I've been most excited to talk about with this book is if your adulthood was told in five parties, what five parties would they be?

[A]

This is such an interesting question. I do have answers. I have thought about this. You gave me a heads up.

[B]

I think this also makes it a really great in person book club pick because you could talk about this and I think everyone's answers would be different.

[A]

Okay, so I. I have them. Are you ready?

[B]

Yeah, I'm ready. I want to hear.

[A]

First one is going to be a frat party at the University of Florida.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I am 18 and with my college roommate, who is still one of my best friends, Haley, and a bunch of other people from our dorm, we go to this frat party invited by Jake. Oh, I. At the time, I knew him as the vice president of the Florida Magazine Student Association. Jake is two years older than me. For those that don't know, he was also in a fraternity. Anyway, so we show up and by the time we get there, we've been drinking Pinnacle whipped cream vodka. Just underage. Sorry. I don't know. I'm apologizing to the authorities. I don't know. I think statute of limitations.

[B]

Yeah, the statute of limitations has expired,

[A]

but my friend is wearing solo cups as shoes.

[B]

Excuse me.

[A]

And I. Yep. I don't know why that happened, but as I said, when we got there, we were in a state and I was obsessed with Jake, like, obsessed with him, and I just thought he was so cool and so cute. And actually, I think at the time he had a girlfriend. But nothing happened during this party. We didn't get together for, like, two years later. But anyway, it's just such a distinct memory of my college experience, being with someone who is still one of my best friends, just going all across campus. Like, at one point, someone was in the bushes. She's wearing solo cups of shoes. And I remember walking in and looking at, like, the linoleum floor and my friend's feet in those cups. And then Jake being there and being like, okay, be cool. Just be cool. Olivia. I'm sure I wasn't, but that was kind of like my first time meeting Jake in, like, a social setting. So.

[B]

Yeah, it's, like, significant for future plot.

[A]

Yes. That was also my first and last time ever in a frat house at uf, so I'm proud of that. Okay, so I think my next one would be. I had a 20th birthday party when I studied abroad in which we made vodka gummy bears.

[B]

Like, jello shots. Oh, vodka soaked gummy bears. I know what you're talking about.

[A]

Vodka soaked gummy bears. Yes. Except we didn't have vodka for some reason, so. But we did have cactus liquor.

[B]

I don't even know what that is.

[A]

We had just been in the Canary Islands, and I don't know why we had it. It was very strong. It was like grain alcohol. So not a lot of memories from that night. But I do remember I wore this red lace backless dress that I thought was incredible.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And all of those friends I met there are some of my best friends. I can still remember my friend Tom, who doesn't drink, holding, like, a metal bowl for me at the end of the night.

[B]

Oh, God bless.

[A]

God bless Tom. Honestly, he's been through a lot, but he's still one of my best friends. This, like, very nice British man. And so, yeah, that was, like, two distinct groups of friends that I had. And so those are some of my memories of, like, meeting them. Okay, so now we're gonna turn a little darker. Okay, so my next party is me and three of my best friends from high school. One of our first, like, adult trips, we rented this completely glass cabin in the woods of North Carolina. And we didn't realize it was completely transparent until we got there. It was like the bathroom was in the middle of the room with no door. What? It was so. It was so strange, but we were so proud of ourselves. I mean, we were all, like, 24. We were 24 and using our hard earned money from our first jobs to, like, go on this trip together and come from all the different cities we lived in. And I just remember all of us talking about our jobs and how we felt about them and if it's what we wanted and our relationships and if they were going to last. And I don't know, like, adulthood just felt really, like, limitless, you know, like, on and on it would go. We'd have all the time in the world to figure it out. And two weeks after that, one of my best friends who was on that trip died really suddenly, which I've talked about in a car accident. And all I could think about was, oh, my God, thank God we went on this trip. Thank God we went on this trip. And we had a playlist of all of the songs we listened to in high school, which, at the time, high school felt so far away, you know, like, it felt like it was 20 years ago instead of five. That is one of them. And then I think the next one would be. And this book made me think of this. But her funeral, I can so remember just sitting in the backseat of an Uber on the way to the funeral with my two best friends and talking to the Uber driver about where we were going and why. And it was this kind of thing where it's like, you never know how to talk about anything. You never know when to laugh. Can you laugh? Should you cry? It was, like, my first experience with that kind of loss. It was also just this string of. And anyone who's lost someone knows this, of course. Like, it's just a string of social gatherings that are very weird. And so there's that. And then that's four.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And then I guess the fifth. I mean, I guess I would say our wedding only because it was 20, 21. It was such a specific wedding time in the world. It was incredibly stressful. But the only thing is that we didn't have a lot of our friends at our wedding. It was, like, pretty much all family because we had to cut a hundred people because of COVID So I don't know. Still, though, it was, like, in a lot of ways, in so many ways, it encapsulated everything about who I was in that moment of my life and what the world was like. There was Covid. There was. I was at, like, the height of, like, my influencer time. And it really affected how I felt about the wedding in a lot of ways that I kind of regret, actually. But that's a story for Another day. But anyway, also narrative. That's actually full circle.

[B]

I was going to say narratively, it closes the loop.

[A]

Yes. I mean, the marriage is the most important part, and that's what I'm most proud of anyway, so. So, yeah, I don't know. Those are some of the first that came to mind, but I'm. I'm looking forward to hearing yours.

[B]

I've been thinking about this all month. I have notes in my phone. I've been. I've been mulling on this.

[A]

Okay. I've been thinking about this for this morning, so I can't wait to hear yours.

[B]

So the first one is this New Year's party going into 2011 in Boston. I was 24, and a bunch of our college friends had come back for New Year's and we were all together again, and we went to this sloppy house party that was thrown by a friend of a friend.

[A]

And.

[B]

And the night was so messy. Like, I both fell down the stairs and cried. Not because of being hurt from falling down the stairs, but because I like. I was like, my friend Allie doesn't like me. She's who I saw in Boston this weekend to see her. Her children. Like, it was all.

[A]

I'm so glad the crying at parties phase of my life is over. Or at least I hope it is. That was like a solid five years, though. So relatable.

[B]

And this party was just such a mess. And then the next morning, we all wound up in my bed just recapping the night. It felt so emblematic of that time. And everyone had a story of the side quest that gone on. We were all so hungover, but we thought everything was so funny. And yeah, it just felt really emblematic of that era of life.

[A]

I loved nothing more than the next day. Party, catch up.

[B]

Oh, I mean, like the getting ready to go out and the recapping of the going out was often better than the going out. Then my next party, I think would be a Beta breakers party in San Francisco. So I would have been 25 or 26. I'd moved to San Francisco at this point and had a whole new group of friends, like made all new friends who. Who lived there. And I remember there being one Beta breakers where my friend Ashley was visiting. I don't think she'd moved there yet, but she was visiting. So it was kind of like a. A blending of different eras of my life as.

[A]

Sorry, what are you saying? Ba. Beta breakers. Bae.

[B]

To breakers.

[A]

Oh, what. What is that?

[B]

So it's like a local, local holiday. So Beta breakers is Technically a running race where San Francisco is seven miles across the city. And so you run from the bay, like the Bay Bridge to the ocean on the other side of the city. And so people actually run it, but then everyone else dresses in costumes and walks the route with drinks and gets hammered, basically. Okay, then you have costumes. So this the one I'm thinking of. We dressed as Shark Week and so we all had these shark hoodies. And then they all said the day of the week on them. They were really cute.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

One year we went as holidays. Everyone was a different holiday. But you have like a big group costume and you go with friends.

[A]

This context is helpful for me, but continue your story. Sorry.

[B]

And I think the importance of this was just like, I moved, I made new friends. My friend Ashley was there. So it was like, make new friends, keep the old. Still partying. And like, in this young era of my life, I would say the next one is I've then moved to New York. And this is at a party at Bobble Bar where I worked in 2012-2015. And we would frequently host these pop up shops and there would be parties as part of it. And I feel like that, I mean, that's where I met Grace. But it was also very much this era of everyone being so ambitious. Your work friends are real friends. We're all just like hustling. Work was such a big part of our our lives. There was like some element of glamour to it of like these fashion parties that we were all really excited about. I can't think of what specific party it would be, but it would be like one of those parties.

[A]

Yeah, that reminds me so much of some of the parties when I was working at Bustle that were just ridiculous and I would end up at.

[B]

Yeah, totally. The next one would be a Covid Zoom happy hour because I think that's just so emblematic of the stasis that everyone was in. And you went to the first couple and they were fun, and then you're like, this isn't really fun. Or, you know, maybe not even a happy hour. Like, I feel like I went to. I went to a Zoom wedding. I went to definitely Zoom birthday parties, you know, where it's like, there's this element of like, I have to show up for someone else and, like, the last thing I want to do is sit on my computer and see people. Not in real life. Yeah, I think I went to a Zoom baby shower.

[A]

Yeah, that sounds right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I did like a PowerPoint party. That was the one or two.

[B]

Totally. And then I would say my last one, my fifth one, would be my book launch for the Christmas Orphans Club. Because, first of all, I felt so loved because so many of my friends came from out of town. Grace came from out of town. A bunch of my college friends came from out of town from various places. And, you know, they really took it seriously as a milestone, and I felt so supported and embraced, and I think that was also really important as, like, entering a different era of my career. It felt so special that so many people showed up for me like that.

[A]

Yeah. And you went to Rolfs.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Which Iconic.

[B]

Iconic. I wonder if people will be surprised that I didn't say the lobster roll off, because I think people associate me with that so heavily, but I don't think that really has any real storytelling function. Yeah, it's just, like, I like to eat lobster, and it's a fun thing.

[A]

I was gonna choose, like, we had a house party here last year with a bunch of our friends from here, and I was like, yeah, I don't really. There's not really any story there. It's just, like, we have friends here.

[B]

I think that I was surprised that you didn't pick that one. I was guessing. Well, partially just because that's the only one that would have been when I knew you. But I was partially wondering if that. Because it felt like such a milestone of, like, you've moved to a new place and you have a community to have over for a party. You own this house. Like, it's very adult.

[A]

Yeah, it was on my list at one point, and I just didn't know if I had anything. But, yes, that was a very fun night. And I will say that, like, I'd always imagined just, like, having dance parties in my living room. And that's what happened. And it was lovely. And I was like, we're gonna do this in two weeks. And now it's been, like, almost a year, and we haven't done one again. So soon, maybe.

[B]

So back into the book as opposed to our lives. I'm curious, of the six friends, were there people's stories that you felt or points of view that you felt more or less drawn to? That's an.

[A]

I was thinking about this so much as I was reading. I was kind of equally invested in everyone's in a weird way, and it would kind of ebb and flow. You know, who I was most interested in or who I found most compelling? I don't. I really liked the Sasha and Mia dynamic, and I think maybe if There was anyone I was drawn to the most, it was Mia. But I can't say that she was the most likable or making the best choices.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I don't know. What do you think?

[B]

I really liked and identified with Mia. Again, she's not perfect. She's not making good choices. But there was something about her that felt very relatable to me. And I think also the moment when she said to Marco that she wasn't gonna go with him to DC because of her career, I was like, oh, I really respect that. But then she had so much regret over that. Like, I just felt like all of that was so relatable. I think there's also some aspect of identifying with her because she's the friend that doesn't have kids and has maybe prioritized other areas of her life. I guess she does get to a point where she straight up says, I don't wanna have kids. But I think for a while there was, like, an uncertainty of whether or not she wanted that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then I also felt really drawn to Richie's point of view, I think, because probably it was the most chaotic and there was so much happening. But I thought that there was, like, it was interesting. And especially in the later chapters after he's gone to rehab and there's, like, more self awareness of his toxic behavior but not being able to stop it. I just. I thought there was so much, like, richness in his interior monologue. And, like, I also thought it was really interesting that he became friends with Nina. Like, I just. I always felt like his chapters went in surprising ways.

[A]

I found Nina really interesting too, because when there was that really sort of sad chapter where she was, like, calling her mom, and I think she only

[B]

gets one or two chapters.

[A]

Yeah. And it just totally flipped what I had been thinking about her on its head. And I had so much empathy for her because I can so relate to, like, having social anxiety and being in those moments and being like, no, like, you. You deserve to be here. And, like, you're a valuable, interesting person and, like, trying to, like, talk to yourself and. I mean, she was so cringy in a lot of. A lot of parts. But, yeah, I thought that was kind of fascinating that she got only a few chapters. But it did really do a lot for her as a. As a character.

[B]

Same. Can I read you something I thought was so interesting?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So the author, Grant Gender, was interviewed in New York magazine's Substack newsletter.

[A]

Anyway, very cool.

[B]

Um, just trying to, like, credit this properly. Not on New York magazine, but like in their substack newsletter. And the interviewer asked him, what were you trying to do with each of the characters? And he said, I was really interested in how time and the pressures and new responsibilities in different stages in life affect a friend group. So I created a friend group made up of six people, all of which were versions of various neuroses of mine that sort of then became people on the page. Yeah, I thought knowing that they were all fun house mirror versions of him really added something to the book for me.

[A]

Yeah, sometimes that's kind of how I think about writing too. So that's. But is. Is that his way of saying that so his friends don't. Don't connect the dots too much, maybe, or maybe it's all of the above. You know, that's kind of writing too, is like, you're taking a little of this, you're taking a little of that. But I do love that.

[B]

But, yeah, like taking an individual neurosis and amping it up to a hundred and then playing that out as a friend group as opposed to inside of you at all, fighting it out. I was like, that's a really interesting approach.

[A]

Yeah, I love that.

[B]

So I think one thing about this book that I enjoyed so much was that the friend group dynamic felt so familiar to me. I have a close group of friends from college that I still talk to all day, every day. I saw in the last 24 hours that I think of as my closest friends. And there are people who live in different cities, are in different life stages, in different levels of satisfaction with their career. Like this just all felt really familiar to me and really realistic. But I also recognize that this may be quite rare for people to stay with the same group of friends over a long period of time. Like in all of these cases, I've known these people longer in my life than I haven't known them, which is so special. I was just curious how the friend group dynamic felt for you.

[A]

Yeah, I can't say that I have anything that's exactly similar. I think I've always just had very small, separate friend groups. You know, I have a couple close friends from high school, a couple close friends from college, and then my friends now. And that's kind of it.

[B]

I was reading a question in. Do you get Haley Naiman's newsletter? Maybe, baby.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So yesterday in her newsletter, there was a question in an advice column, and it was talking about friendship. The question was about friendship, and the asker was saying that they had always fetishized having a best friend, but maybe had more of like a group dynamic thing. And then in Haley's response, she was saying that she had actually always fetishized having a group, especially in her 20s, like having this big, raucous friend group, but always had, you know, more of the smaller best friend relationships, like, that were one to one. And I don't know, it's just. It's so interesting that I. I don't think this gets talked about that much, which is why I find friendship fiction so interesting. Because, you know, everyone has friends and, like, these relationships somehow get less examination, or we treat them as if they are easy and do not require work. But that's not the case.

[A]

Yeah. And I think it's so individual and universal, you know, like, they're. Even though I couldn't relate to the exact friend group or the structure, I should say, I guess in this book, like, I could certainly relate to the. The feeling of, like, you change, you want to change, but you don't want the friendship to change. And that's actually impossible in some ways, I think, or maybe it's not. But, I mean, I certainly. I had such close best friendships to those best friends from high school and into college that when we eventually graduated from college and we moved to our separate cities, or in one of my best friends case, she moved to a different country. I had a lot of, like, really intense discomfort with this idea that, like, it was gonna change. Like, we would always love each other, but are we gonna be speaking every single day? Probably not. Like, you know, that's how it is. And it's almost like becomes like a familial relationship, you know, where you're like, that's always gonna be there. I know that I could call them tomorrow, but we have different lives, you know, and they don't cross over a lot, unfortunately, because of where we live.

[B]

I thought one of the most interesting small aspects that this book explored was when Sasha had moved to the suburbs and she had Anoushka, who was her, like, day to day life stage bestie versus mia, who was somebody who she'd known for so long. And like, the push and pull between that, like, you're right. Like, it's like they were best friends, but they're not on the same page on a day to day basis.

[A]

Yeah. Yes. And that's hard. And. And I have, like, my college best friends now. All of them have kids except for me. And I remember when the third one of them, the last. Last one, except for me, got pregnant. I felt like, this feeling of of course, happiness and excitement, but also, like, total fear that I. I was. Because I. I still frankly don't know where I'm gonna end up on the kids thing. And I was like, oh, I'll be the odd one out. I'll be the weird one. And. And still sometimes, like, I know they have conversations about kids, stuff that I'm not part of, probably because they don't want to annoy me. But it's hard. It's really hard. And then on the opposite end of the spectrum, I have really, really close friends who don't want kids. And I'm like, well, if we have kids, will it totally ruin this friendship? So it is really. It's just tough. It's weird. It's so weird.

[B]

And again, like, it. I do feel like it's a topic that doesn't get talked about that much because it's sensitive. And especially to have the conversation directly with people in your life. You know, obviously your children are so important to you. And I think it's like an early motherhood especially is so intense that, you know, it's hard to have a real conversation about your needs or the needs of your friendship when maybe. I always think of. Hipha Palapu said at one of our live shows, she said something about, like, friendships can be for a reason, a season or a lifetime. And it's like you're in a season of your friendship where maybe friendship is not their top priority, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like, it. That's something that's really hard to talk about openly. And so. Because you don't want to offend somebody and nobody's right and nobody's wrong. But I think that's why seeing this portrayal in fiction, it felt so interesting to see it explored openly. Like you were saying, they said the quiet part out loud.

[A]

Yeah. It was so well done. I think the only thing I. I would be really interested to hear someone's perspective on this who has children, because if there was anything I felt like, well, I don't have kids, so I can't speak to this, but I didn't really feel like at any point Sasha enjoyed being a parent. And maybe that's true. Maybe when you have a. Whatever age, her kids were like, it's not really that fun. That seems. That seems true a lot of the time.

[B]

Well, you're also.

[A]

But I do know people who are deeply.

[B]

One day, that's very chaotic.

[A]

Right. I guess I was just like. It would have felt maybe a little more balanced if she, like, had a moment where it was like, she chose to do this and she loves it. Or, and I'm also coming to this as someone who is, like, reading both of these perspectives again, transparently, like, trying to make these decisions and think about it critically all the time, sort of in the back of my head. And so I don't think you read this and it's like, wow, having kids sounds great.

[B]

Totally, totally.

[A]

And that's.

[B]

I did think there was an evenness to it of Mia feeling hurt or left out, having the feeling of her needing Sasha to be her friend, but Sasha not being available to her, and then at the same time, Sasha being like, I have 80 zillion things going on that are not optional. And Mia is just texting me random memes and things for this Miami trip. Like, I, I, I thought it felt very even handed, and it wasn't like one of them was right and one of them was wrong. Like, they were both wrong and that felt correct.

[A]

I agree with you. I would only counter that I think the only unevenness is that Mia clearly feels lost in her career, but then ultimately you see that she gets a lot of value from it and she, like, feels inspired by it, whereas Sasha, it's kind of like she chose, you know, motherhood. And it's almost like it wasn't clear to me that she feels good about that choice, which maybe she doesn't. And I, I don't know. That's. That's valid too. But that was the, that's the little thing. I will say that I absolutely. Talking about the evenness. I loved the scene where Mia's talking to her friends and she's like, being such an ass about the suburbs of it all and how they're kind of like, you know, there's no restaurants here or whatever. And then she comes to find out that there are these, like, high powered PR people who are, like, leading these big careers. I thought that was brilliant, and it felt so satisfying because I totally get what Mia is saying and why she feels that way. But then, like, to have it handed right back to her, I just thought was perfect.

[B]

So let's take another ad break, and then I want to talk about some of the other relationship dynamics in the book.

[A]

This episode is sponsored by macmillan. So it's time to talk about a book that has been very much on my radar for the last few weeks. This Story Might Save youe Life by Tiffany Crumb. And just to start with, one of the most important details for audiobook lovers. This is narrated by fan favorite narrator Julia Whelan and Sean Patrick Hopkins. So if it isn't on your radar, it should be. This is a delightful genre meld that is part mystery, thriller and romance. The book follows best friends Benny and Joy, who also host a hit podcast together. Each week they share a different against all odds survival story with fans digging into zany near death experiences with Glee. But at the height of their success, Joy goes missing and the survival story trope becomes all too real.

[B]

This book is made for audio and I'm talking literally because in addition to the amazing casting, the audiobook includes exclusive audio only material including duet recordings of the podcast episodes, light sound design tip line recordings from guest narrators including the Authority, and a bonus podcast episode.

[A]

So in case you didn't catch the title the first time that is Tiffany Crumbs, this story might save your life and it is read by Julia Whelan and Sean Patrick Hopkins and it is available right now wherever you listen to audiobooks.

[B]

Coming out of this audiobook ad, I also have to say that when I reread this book, I did the audio and do you watch Shrinking?

[A]

Yes, but I'm not caught up on this season.

[B]

So each of the friends had a different narrator for their chapters and Adam was Michael Urie, who plays Brian on Shrinking.

[A]

That's perfect.

[B]

I was listening to it and I was like, where do I know this voice from? Who are you?

[A]

That is literally perfect.

[B]

It's like when you hear a celebrity in a car commercial and you're like, who is that?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I bet this would be so good in audio.

[B]

I really enjoyed it. So we talked about the dynamic of friends with kids versus not. I'm curious what other dynamics in the book you felt most drawn to?

[A]

I don't know. That's a good question. I was sort of equally drawn to all of them. Were there any for you that come to mind right away?

[B]

I always am really interested when a book tackles a friend breakup. And I think, well, partially there's a personal reason and a not personal reason. So the personal reason is that a couple of years ago I had a huge friendship breakup with somebody who was in this very close group of friends I'd known for almost 20 years. And it was so shocking and painful and such a mind that, you know, I'm always drawn to other people's experiences of friendship breakups. Not personal reason is that when Grace and I first started the podcast we used to do advice episodes and I would say most popular question we got was about friend breakups. And again, something that people don't want to talk about because it feels like maybe a personal failing or it feels too sensitive. And so, yeah, I feel like I've read other books with a friend breakup, but I loved seeing how this played out, and I really loved. I think it was in Sasha's point of view where she was, like, it was this stupid thing that spiraled. And, like, I could have just texted her the next day and been like, I was being a. And she would have said, yeah, I was being a too. And then, like, the longer you let it fester, the harder it is to come back from.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And again, like, Sasha did something so shitty in lying to Mia about blowing off their Miami trip, but she was trying to spare her feelings. And so I can't say that I would have reacted better than Mia, but in Sasha's point of view, you kind of understand that she's trying to come from a good place and balance different things. And then obviously, like, the Richie of it all, with that he is relapsing and has just found out this thing about Sasha's affair that it just kind of all spirals.

[A]

But I agree with you. I think that was interesting. I mean, I. I think one thing I have no experience with that was hard for me to wrap my mind around was, like, the romantic relationships and breakups within the friend group. And that's probably because I don't have, like, a sprawling group of people. And it's just, you know, like, two friends here, two friends there. But the way that complicated everything I found really interesting. Not necessarily relatable, but really, really well done. And the friendship breakup of it all, too, I think, similarly, because I have only, you know, a very small handful of relationships, I haven't really been through that in the same way. I've certainly had, like, the slow fade, which is painful in its own kind of way. But one aspect I think I thought was really, really well done, and I'm sure we all have in our life to some degree in our friends and family, is how they portrayed addiction with. With Richie. And I just felt like from the outside or when you're young, maybe addiction can seem very much like, oh, someone has a problem. It's very clear cut. We understand it from day one, and they're gonna go to rehab and it's gonna be fixed, and that's it. And actually, it's not like that at all.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I thought the imperfectness of it, I. I really very much appreciated, and I loved the line where I forget exactly who was talking to him. Maybe it was Mia, but Like, well, what if I try this and I, you know, and I fuck it sober again and it doesn't work? And then she was like, well, we're gonna, you'll try again. And, and that's really it. Like, that is recovery, you know. You know, I think for a lot of people, but yeah, I thought it was, it was very well done.

[B]

So another thing that I kept thinking about as I was reading this book is that there's a really common criticism of romance novels that the relationship dynamics are too tidy or they set unrealistic standards. Like everything always gets resolved in 350 pages because there's this happily ever after or happily for now expectation versus here. Almost every romantic relationship had insurmountable issues and was like deeply, deeply imperfect and deeply dramatic in a lot of cases. And I'm curious how this felt for you. Like, did this portrayal of romantic relationships feel realistic to you?

[A]

Yes, I think so. I, I also, I'm just thinking about now. I really liked weirdly the Sasha and Theo stuff and how after they broke up she was talking about how like, is this the best thing that's ever happened to me or the, the worst? And like, how much of that is a choice? And I don't know, I just found it so interesting and honest and I think it's a lot more reflective probably of a lot of people's relationships and, and long term relationships than people would like to say. Because it's not all rainbows and butterflies. Yeah, I think it felt real. I mean, a lot of it I hope to never find in my own relationship.

[B]

I was gonna say it felt, it felt really real, but like, did I come away convinced that any of these people belong together? It was like, oh, we should be getting some more divorces in here.

[A]

Yeah. But I don't know, it felt real in like a pessimistic kind of way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whereas I think there's a real optimistic version of it and I don't if that's what the story called for, but I do think that when you look at it from the perspective of when you're 20 and you look at long term relationships, you feel one way and when you're 40, you probably feel a totally different way. And you've seen so many different things and so many versions of life and I think that is true no matter where your relationship lands.

[B]

Totally. Yeah. I just thought it was such a contrast to how unvarnished this portrayal was. And you know, also you're dramatizing for plot, so there's a Lot more dramatic happenings in this 350 page book than hopefully you would find in one relationship. It was like the. I was like, this is the anti romance genre.

[A]

Yeah. Honestly, the fact that a marriage would survive that Halloween scene is really the biggest question.

[B]

Really something. Oh, can I go back? There's one other thing that I. The small thing about this book that I love so much, and it's the cast of side characters of, like.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

The fact that there's, like, these people who are kind of in the background who are, like, coming in and out where you're like, oh, yeah, Allison Liu broke her leg and, like, Sacha Patel, like, thinks her kids are geniuses. And, like, there's these people that you're gossiping about who are, like, outside of the friend group who kind of, like, keep recurring. That felt so real.

[A]

Yes. Yes. That is one thing I kind of wish I had. I wish I had a giant group of friends from college where we could talk about our other friends from college, which I don't really have.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

But can we talk about the. Well, calling back to the COVID the infamous goldfish scene.

[B]

Oh, my God. Olivia. This moment really stood out for me. And I would say Sasha was maybe one of the harder for me to relate to characters. I thought she felt very fully formed and perhaps somebody else could relate to her. But when she was, like, sneaking out and going to those bars and, like, meeting men or like that, she was like, that was in the first chapter. I was like, who is this person? What's your deal? But I think she had one of the most relatable moments in this book with that meltdown that she had at Petco where she was trying to buy the replacement goldfish for her son. And I wrote it down here because I feel like in case there's anyone listening who didn't read or forgot about it, this just felt like, could be a manifesto for modern motherhood or modern womanhood. Okay, so she says she's saying this to a Petco employee. She Sundays, I have 85 people coming to my house in 90 minutes, half of whom are under the age of 12. Before that happens, I have to change the batteries in an animatronic witch, put on a full body red leotard that doesn't totally fit, fill a plastic cauldron with dry ice, bleach the toilets in all the bathrooms, make four cheese plates look presentable enough so everyone won't talk about them later, verify that there are absolutely no peanuts anywhere in the house, and pick up three people from the train station. You may be thinking to yourself, this looks like a capable woman. Why did she leave all of this stuff to do the last minute? Especially if she has 85 people coming to her house? The answer is because up until now I've been cutting crusts off of sandwiches and making T shirts for a Bruce Springsteen cover band and driving to the pediatrician appointments and dentist appointments and parent teacher conferences and running an art gallery next to a gay club in Chelsea and cleaning spilled yogurt from under the seats in my car. I was supposed to get my first mammogram this year, but I can't find the time. And next year's not looking great either. I slept seven hours over the last three nights and have been watching episodes of Bluey since 5 o' clock this morning. And if I don't get my way right now, there is a strong possibility that I will get very, very violent.

[A]

Yeah, it's so good. Also the lead up to this and the interaction with the sales associate where she, where he's like, well, let me ask you this. Would you like to live in a tiny glass bowl? Like I was dying laughing because I could just picture so clearly. It was very, very funny.

[B]

Very funny funny where like this guy is obviously from his point of view trying to do the right thing and you're just like, not today, Satan. But I, I felt like in this, but also in other aspects, it felt so impressive to me that this was written by a male author. How did you feel about. Well, I guess both this monologue, but then also just like how he portrayed female characters.

[A]

Oh, I, yeah, I, I felt good about that too. I think I mostly was thinking about whether he has kids or not, which I would guess.

[B]

I don't think so.

[A]

No, but I thought the kids, not kids of it all, like was portrayed really well and I thought found myself wondering if he had kids or not because of that. But yeah, I think you're right that like I think the female characters were great.

[B]

Have you ever written. No. Well, I guess maybe in book three. Have you ever written from a male point of view?

[A]

Book three?

[B]

Book three. It's. It's scary. It's nerve wracking.

[A]

Yeah, it is. I haven't really ever thought about until this moment. But yeah, I guess there is a certain risk to it.

[B]

So one question that this book really brought to mind for me is like if you'd become friends with your oldest friends if you met today and like, I guess just how do you think about staying close with long term friends? Even as Your lives diverge like geographically, life stage wise, professionally.

[A]

It's a good question. I mean, I think, like I said, like, I've had a lot of time accepting that closeness ebbs and flows. And so it helps me to think about those longest, oldest friendships as more of like they're my sisters or my brother, you know, almost. And like, it's just sometimes it's going to be quieter, they're going to be busier. But ultimately we always have this bond and this closeness. And that's taken me a lot of time to accept because honestly, like, the thing is that I've learned some people aren't good with texting. Yeah, some people don't want to call. You know, some people aren't going to want to schedule the zoom visit every six months. And, and as our lives get busier and it's just, it becomes more complicated. Like right now my priority is my career and like for my other friends, their priorities are their kids and that just ends up being most important. But I think maintaining a baseline of like understanding what is important to your friends in that moment, what they're going through, what they're struggling with in whatever way possible, I think is just what's most important. And understanding that, like, it's just, like I said, gonna ebb and flow. I don't know. Do you have perspective on this? Because I feel like I'm like in that sort of early stage where things are changing more with kids coming into the picture. So maybe you have more perspective on this. I mean, you're not that much older than me, but just a few years.

[B]

Well, I, I do think about it all the time if I would be friends with my closest friends if we met today. And I think the bigger question is really like, where would I meet some of these people given that, like, we don't live in the same city, that our lives are so different. And so, you know, it's almost like our paths wouldn't cross if we hadn't have met at the time that we met. And you know, even though our lives are so different, I attach so much value to, to having these long term friendships. These people have known me through so many different stages and phases of my life. And especially, you know, coming from somebody with like a very small family, like, I don't have siblings, I don't have that built in biologically. And so, you know, like, I think some of it is just like not keeping score of like sometimes, like, I value this. So. Yeah, sometimes when friends have very small kids, it's like, you have to travel, you have to do more of the work, et cetera. I think another interesting dynamic in my friend group is that my friend Peter had kids very young. And so his kids are older. They're in middle school and high school. And it's also so much a stage of, like, I went to go visit him in Chicago over the summer, and his kids are 13 and 15. And I was shocked by, like, if they were home, you could bribe them to go out with you. Like, we could take them to dinner. We could. Like, we took his son to Dave and Buster's, and he was so into it. We took his daughter shopping, and she was. And to get, like, an ear piercing, and she was into it. But, like, if they were home, they were in their room talking to their friends. And so, like, the amount of space you have as your kids get older for other things. And also, like, in terms of travel, like, Peter, I see him so frequently outside of. He lives in Chicago, outside of Chicago, because his kids are getting older, so it's much easier for him to, like, leave for a weekend. And so also, like, knowing that because we've seen how things have changed from when his kids were young. I mean, he's always been very good at maintaining friendships, but you know how his time and demands on his time have changed from when he was young to as his kids have gotten older. You're like, I feel like the under five years are so intense.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Of, like, the demands on parents.

[A]

Yes, that is true. And I will also say something I think I've learned that I wasn't really expecting as my friends have started to have kids is like, being a parent is not a monolith. Like, yeah. There is this very common narrative that, like, when you have little kids, you're going to be like this, and that's the only way you're going to be. And I think there are a lot of shared commonalities. And, like, it is so intense when you have kids under a certain age. But also, like, not everyone is the same. Like, some people do want to talk about it all the time. Some people don't. You know, some people are really anxious. Some people aren't. Or some, you know, there's all kinds of things. And so I think over time, I've realized not to assume that my friends are going to be a certain way or even, like, to assume that I would be a certain way if I went down that path, you know, And I think that's been helpful being, you know, in my mid-30s now and not having kids. And still thinking about it, but, yeah, it's a lot. Well, one big plot driver of this book, which is so smart because there's a version of this book that I think is not very plot heavy because of the complicated structural nature of it, is that you find out on the very first pages that someone has died in the friend group. How did you feel about this plot device throughout the book? And did you feel like you knew who died?

[B]

Well, I think it was smart. I think it was smart to give it the wrapper of that. However, after the first party, I wasn't thinking about who died. You know, I was reading because I was invested in the dynamics, but I wasn't like, gotta turn the pages so I can guess who died. No, I. I wasn't really thinking about it. Who died. I mean, I think it's like Richie would have been the most obvious choice of who died. And then maybe Nina would have been like. Everyone would have felt bad, but, like, how much would they have cared? Because they were pretty cruel to her at points. Like, would Mia be getting on a flight from another country for Nina's funeral? I don't know. So it was like, okay. I feel like it would be too obvious to be Richie probably isn't Nina. I don't know. Like, I wasn't really trying to guess, but it felt. You know, there's something about Adam that was like. It makes sense when you find out he died because he was maybe the least flawed character. Like, he was like the most pure of heart. So you're like, oh, yeah. In retrospect, you were the one who died.

[A]

I felt so bad, though. I know, Me too. Why him? He was so nice.

[B]

I know. And especially given he's a father of a young child was so heart wrenching.

[A]

Yeah. And I think, like, in the final major fight scene, I don't know if the goal was to make Adam seem annoying because he's like, you know, morally superior to everyone or whatever, but that didn't really land for me. I got that's how the characters felt. But, like, I was like, no. I thought he was just always so kind and generous. And I don't just. I really liked him, so I was really sad.

[B]

Were you trying to put together who died or were you just along for the ride?

[A]

I was pretty along for the ride. I actually kept forgetting that was kind a plot, you know, thing till the end. And my heart kind of sunk though. And I saw it was Adam. I did. I don't know who. It's not like there was someone I Would rather it be, but it just, it felt so unfair. But honestly, that, that's life. That is how life goes. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

How did you feel about the ending of the book? Overall?

[A]

I liked it. I won't say it like made the book for me.

[B]

Agreed.

[A]

I mean, but I liked it well enough.

[B]

I. I really liked it. I felt like there was a strong sense of inevitability about it. Like I, I loved that Adam's death brought Mia and Sasha back together. I liked that, you know, it wasn't so tidy, that Richie was perfectly healed and that he almost relapsed but then didn't. Maybe not even by his own accord, but like he got interrupted and it like pulled him back. I like that there was an open door for Mia and Marco to maybe get together. It felt really inevitable, which I think is like sometimes the best thing you can say about an ending. Whereas like it couldn't have ended any other way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Poor Adam. I'm like, his death was necessary to heal.

[A]

To heal the first person listening to Indigo Girls, no less. I know, I know, but it was sweet. I hope they're all friends, these fake people.

[B]

That's how real they felt. And you know, another thing that really impressed me about this book was that I do feel like one thing that I think is sometimes difficult with a multi POV novel is differentiating the characters, voices. And I felt like they all felt so distinct and different.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's part of why I was in it. And I wasn't so confused by all the different names and the scenes where there's like 10 people and not only just the core characters, but then all the side characters as well. And because you're right, the voices are, are so, so distinct.

[B]

Yeah. Did this remind you of any other books? Like were there any read alike wrecks that this brought up for you?

[A]

I definitely thought about the Celebrants. Yeah, for sure.

[B]

Another great long term friendship novel that

[A]

goes from and book club pick, I think. Did we do it for book club? I think we did, but we should know.

[B]

I can't remember eight years of book club picks. That's like.

[A]

I know. We went to the event for it together. We did and I read it. Man, I can't remember. Wow, that's weird. Anyway, who knows? What about you? Were there any, Were there any that were top of mind?

[B]

Well, the Celebrants. I agree. It also brought up. Have you ever read the Interestings by Meg Wolitzer?

[A]

I have not. I was just talking to someone the other day about this, that is a

[B]

book that I think of as one of my favorite books, but I can't remember with a ton of specificity anymore. So this is really top of my list to reread at some point. And I think that book really shares the drama with this book where that book is about. I can't remember how many friends, but a group of friends who meet at like an art summer camp as teenagers and then as adults, they're kind of all in different places in life. Like, some of them have gone into art as a career, some of them have been successful, some of them haven't. Two of them got married. Like, there's a lot of juicy dynamics in that book too. I've been saying I want to reread this for years. I have it on my shelf behind me. I don't know why I haven't, but the pull of new books is too strong. Another book that this brought to mind is Olive by Emma Gannon, which was not a perfect book for me, but it's a book that heavily explores the dynamic of wanting to be child free versus having friends with kids. And I feel like that was a more biased portrayal of it. Towards the child free side perhaps. Although that character is pretty insufferable. So I don't know, there's a level of bias that maybe wasn't intended in there too, the opposite way meaning. But I think if that's a topic you're interested in reading more about, I would, I would point you there. And then also, I forgot about it until right now. I didn't even put this in the outline. But One Star Romance by Laura Henken, I feel like is such a great. That was a book club pick, was such a great portrayal of maintaining friendships as you progress through life stages at different paces. So there's one friend who kind of gets married earlier and, you know, then buys the house in the suburbs, has kids. And there's another friend who is an author who is kind of like slower going through the milestones. And what does that mean when you're each other's like person?

[A]

Yeah. Good pick. Well, is there anything else you want to say about this lovely book?

[B]

No. I'm really curious to see where sentiment shakes out in the Facebook group, in the BFF group. I feel like anecdotally I've seen mostly positive, but I'm really curious to hear other people's reactions to it.

[A]

Yeah. This is one I will definitely recommend to, like, a wide variety of people. Yeah. And it's.

[B]

I would also be interested to hear what characters people most resonated with, like, are there. Like, I felt, like, maybe closest to Mia based on the details of my life. But I'm wondering if other people were reading and they were like, oh, I really resonated with Sasha. Or I really resonated with Adam or I don't. Or Nina. Like, I'm just. I'm really curious how other people read the book.

[A]

Well, let's get into some n matter now. What are you obsessed with?

[B]

I'm obsessed with this Thai restaurant that I never get to go to, but I went to last week, and it's Up Thai that's on Second Avenue in 72nd. So it's uptown. I never get to go there. I used to have a lot of doctors up there, and I would always try to schedule my doctor's appointments around lunchtime so that I can go by myself for lunch. But last week I happened to be up there because my friend Molly was here for work, and she had to go get measured for the hem on her wedding dress. And so we were uptown, and we were right by it, and I was like, oh, my God, we have to go to my favorite Thai restaurant for dinner. And, I mean, I can make a trip up there. It's not like it's on the moon, but I never get to go there. And it's so delicious.

[A]

I used to order from here because I used to live very close to there when I was in the city.

[B]

I'm so jealous of anyone who has Uptai as their local Thai restaurant.

[A]

I think they used to do a lot of TV commercials, really. Like, I have vivid memories of watching the Today show in my apartment on 83rd. And just. It might have been a different Thai restaurant, but I swear it was this one. But I. Yes, I would order for them all the time.

[B]

Oh, that's so funny. We discovered it because a long time ago, one of my other friends, sisters lived in an apartment right by there, and she's younger than us, and it's, like, not expensive, really. I mean, it's medium, but, like, it's on the nicer spectrum of Thai takeout restaurants. But it's not like a $5 sign on Google or whatever. And she brought us there. And ever since, I'm like, whenever I'm around there, I'm like, oh, gotta.

[A]

What's your order schedule?

[B]

An uptie. I like the pad krapow, the basil chicken with the ground chicken and the egg on top.

[A]

That sounds delicious. I'm so hungry right now. I would kill for Thai food.

[B]

Honestly, I Am too. And it's pouring outside and I have no groceries.

[A]

Same time to order.

[B]

I know. What about you? What is your obsession?

[A]

I don't have one. I feel like I'm slacking on obsessions lately, but I don't know. I'm sure I have one somewhere, but I couldn't think of one for the outline. We did just record like three days ago, so I have not. Well, my obsession is Cora, a woman and the Flows steamed hot dog restaurant near York, Maine, who bought me a Flo's hot dog with her $5 bill because I had no cash. So shout out to Cora. You are my obsession. And the hot dog was good.

[B]

Yay for Cora. I would just.

[A]

I really like her name, I think.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, you can name a character after her.

[A]

Maybe I will. Maybe I will. She was very nice.

[B]

Well, what about on the reading front?

[A]

So I read this, and then I also read Good People by Patmina Sabeit. I had heard a little bit about this book, and sometimes I just have a spidey sense with the book and the way people talk about it that I think I just have an instinct that I'm gonna love it. And I've been in a tiny bit of a reading slump, and in terms of. I just haven't, like. Books haven't been hitting the way that I want them to. I've been enjoying some here and there, but this one hit, and it is just such a page turner. I cannot emphasize to you enough how fast I read this book. I think I read it in two sittings, and it's like 400 pages. This book is about an Afghan American family, and something terrible happens. That's all I will say. But the story is told through the perspective of like, dozens of different people in their community, and you don't actually hear from the family themselves at any given point. And because of this, some of the chapters are a paragraph, a sentence, a page, and you just move through this book so, so, so fast. It's such a good mystery. It's not necessarily scary. Although it deals with some really heavy themes. Islamophobia and women's rights and a bunch of other stuff. But at the heart of it, it's just a very, very well written mystery in a format that I have never experienced before. So I absolutely loved this book. I thought it was just phenomenal.

[B]

I'm excited to read this. I feel like I have seen it places, but I have steered clear of it because it has a very generic cover and Good People is a fairly generic title. So I Couldn't have even told you what genre I thought it was.

[A]

100% same. I think it was a book of the month pick for February. Of course, I had my eye on those because, you know, I was very curious as someone who had a book come out in February. And I remember being like, oh, it's a book called Good People and kind of moving on. And then a few people recommended it and the way they talked about it just made me think I would love it. And I did. I think if you liked Angie Kim's style of writing mysteries, you would really like this. But it's totally different than anything I've ever read. I think it's worth going in just and enjoying it.

[B]

Well, I think a lot of us are going to be reading it because.

[A]

Oh yes, this is our April book club pick. Yeah, there's so much to talk about just in terms of how the story ends in the mystery. So I can't wait.

[B]

I'm excited.

[A]

Well, what have you read?

[B]

I only reread things this week. Again, it's been a few days, so take that with a grain of salt. I have a stack of books that I'm reading as kind of research for book three that are like multi pov family novels. And so I reread Pineapple street by Jenny Jackson and I remember loving it, but like, oh my gosh, the writing in it is so good. And it's a type of writing that I love so much that's like deeply specific and referential to different things. I loved it. It made me so excited for. She has a new book coming out in June. I almost want to read it, like neck to compare and contrast them and like, see her growth as a writer.

[A]

I still haven't read this, which I don't know why, because I need to.

[B]

So it's three POVs. It's about this very wealthy family in Brooklyn who have made their money through real estate. And it's the two daughters who are one's in her 20s, one's in her 30s, who are like, grew up very wealthy in the city. And then the third point of view is the woman from like a very middle class or working class background in Rhode island who married their brother.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And it's a very like, rich people problems book.

[A]

Yes, I've heard it's a very good beach read.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Very frothy.

[B]

And yes, I would agree with that. Not beachy in that, like, yeah, they're in Brooklyn, it's not on vacation. But like, yes, I would agree with that. And then I Also read Vacationland by Meg Mitchell Moore, which is, again, about a wealthy family. And it's told from many different POVs. And at its core, it's really about these two half sisters, only one of whom knows about the other, set in Maine, which is the vacation state. And after her mother dies, one of the sisters comes to Maine to seek out her birth father, who was never in her life. And she was raised much more working class then. He's like a judge in Maine, and they have this, like, very fancy house with a name. And the half sister was obviously raised with a lot more privilege. And so the whole thing is like the two sisters colliding and grappling with being raised really differently. And also, you know, one of them growing up with their father and one without.

[A]

When did this come out?

[B]

A few years ago. Maybe like 2022, 2023.

[A]

Okay. Okay, cool.

[B]

Yeah, very dramatic. Like a beach read, but like much more drama filled than frothy, in my opinion.

[A]

Well, like we said, if none of these appeal to you, you can join us in Reading Good People by Patmina Sabit in April. And you can talk about any of this with us in the Facebook group under Baton Paper Podcast.

[B]

You can find us on Instagram @BatonPaper Podcast. Also in our BFF group under, you guessed it, BatonPaper Podcast, I am on Instagram ecamfreeman and my newsletter is @beccafreeman substack.com. and my second novel is coming out in October. It's called Back Where We Started. And I would love you to pre order it if you're interested.

[A]

You should do that. And if you need me, I am at Olivia Mentor, pretty much all the places. And I'll see you there.

[B]

Bye.

[A]

Bye.