Stolen Focus Book Club

Summary

Bad On Paper Podcast – Episode Summary: "Stolen Focus Book Club"

Release Date: January 29, 2025
Hosts: Becca Freeman & Olivia Muenter
Title: Stolen Focus Book Club

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1. Introduction to the Episode

In this inaugural book club episode of the year, hosts Becca Freeman and Olivia Muenter delve into Johann Hari's compelling nonfiction work, "Stolen Focus." The episode centers on dissecting the book's exploration of society's declining attention spans, the multifaceted factors contributing to this trend, and actionable strategies to reclaim focus.

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2. Overview of "Stolen Focus"

"Stolen Focus" by Johann Hari is a profound examination of the societal decline in attention and focus. The narrative intertwines Hari's personal journey—spending a summer in Cape Cod disconnected from the internet—to illustrate broader issues impacting collective attention spans. The book combines factual data, research, and personal anecdotes to present a holistic view of the attention crisis.

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3. Hosts’ Insights and Key Themes

a. Personal Resonance and Emotional Connection

Becca Freeman shares her appreciation for how the book articulates feelings about personal habits without assigning blame. She states:

"It did it in a way that wasn't blamey, where it wasn't a factor of you lazy sack of shit. This is your fault because you don't have the willpower to stay off your phone."
(04:00)

Olivia Muenter echoes this sentiment, highlighting the book's effective integration of emotional narratives with research:

"The parts that he really intertwined with that experience... were so much more about emotion and creativity than they were about, like, research. And they just spoke to me so deeply."
(15:09)

b. Social Media and Workplace Dynamics

Both hosts delve into the book's critique of social media platforms, particularly TikTok and Instagram, emphasizing their addictive algorithms and impact on attention spans. Becca emphasizes:

"TikTok is one of the most nefarious culprits of hijacking your attention... I fall into a hole and I wake up two hours later and I'm like, how did that time go?"
(19:12)

Olivia adds context by linking workplace productivity issues to attention fragmentation:

"He [Johann Hari] talks about how most American office workers never get an uninterrupted hour of time. That horrified me."
(23:35)

c. The Myth of Multitasking

A significant portion of the discussion addresses the misconception that multitasking is an effective productivity tool. Olivia reflects on her past belief in being a multitasker:

"I think the best example is probably like when I was working as an editor... I was always doing a million things at a time."
(31:59)

Becca concurs, sharing her struggles with focus:

"I'm easily distracted. I can't work in a cafe, I can't work with music. I need to be in dead silence doing one thing at a time."
(33:26)

d. Flow States and Productivity

The concept of flow states—deep, immersive focus—is explored as an antidote to scattered attention. Olivia remarks:

"My most favorite experiences in life... are when you do not recognize the passage of time."
(37:22)

Becca connects flow with activities like reading and writing, questioning the realistic frequency of achieving such states:

"How frequently would you say you're reaching this state in your writing?"
(36:56)

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4. Author Controversy: Johann Hari's Past

A critical segment of the episode addresses Johann Hari's controversial past, including accusations of plagiarism and unethical editing practices. Becca outlines the incidents:

"In 2011, he was accused of plagiarizing quotes from sources... He also edited Wikipedia pages under a fake name, adding false and defamatory claims."
(60:10)

Olivia shares her perspective on how these controversies affect the credibility of "Stolen Focus":

"While it makes me trust him less, it doesn't make me feel any differently about what I got out of it for me personally."
(64:02)

Becca acknowledges the gravity of Hari's actions but emphasizes personal takeaways from the book:

"He can never earn anything other than a menial wage because he can't do his craft of writing anymore. I don't think that that's realistic."
(65:44)

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5. Takeaways and Personal Habits

The hosts discuss practical strategies derived from "Stolen Focus" to enhance personal attention and reduce digital distractions.

a. Pre-commitment Strategies

Johann Hari advocates for pre-committing to reduce task-switching and limit distractions. Olivia implements this by:

"I download Instagram once or twice a day for like five to 15 minutes... and then I delete it."
(49:49)

Becca shares her approach to minimizing distractions:

"I keep my phone away from my desk... not having it in arm's reach has been huge."
(66:35)

b. Limiting Social Media Use

Both hosts emphasize muting and limiting social media interactions to maintain focus. Becca highlights the impact of muting Instagram stories:

"I have probably 40 or 50 people unmuted... I try to have most people muted, and it has been shocking to me."
(69:05)

Olivia adds the significance of removing notifications to prevent constant distractions:

"It is extremely distracting."
(69:59)

c. Embracing Boredom and Unstructured Time

Becca reflects on embracing boredom as a means to resist constant digital stimulation:

"Boredom is when you do the things that make you feel like you have your life under control. Not being bored is why you always feel busy."
(77:32)

Olivia discusses the importance of being present and mindful without digital interruptions:

"You are never purely like at home with yourself. You're never analyzing how you're feeling, like you're always somewhere else."
(77:35)

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6. Listener Engagement and Recommendations

The episode incorporates listener input and offers additional resources for those interested in improving focus and reducing digital distractions.

a. Listener Voicemail

Megan from Chicago shares her experience managing screen time with a newborn:

"I have a goal to keep my screen time at or under three or four hours per day... tried this new app, Opal... it's really impressive."
(72:56)

b. Additional Recommendations

Becca and Olivia recommend related podcasts and newsletters for further exploration:

• "The Bookcase Podcast with Charlie Gibson" – A cozy podcast featuring father-daughter discussions on books and author interviews.
• "Embedded by Kate Lindsay" – A newsletter exploring themes like the discomfort with boredom and the pervasive nature of digital distractions.

Becca shares an impactful quote from Kate Lindsay:

"By refusing to ever let your brain rest, you are choosing to watch other people's lives through a screen at the expense of your own."
(77:32)

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7. Future Book Club Selections and Final Thoughts

As the episode wraps up, the hosts preview upcoming books for their book club, emphasizing their commitment to immersive and diverse reading experiences.

a. February's Book Club Pick: "Isola" by Allegra Goodman

Olivia introduces "Isola," a historical fiction novel set in Canada, highlighting its immersive narrative and rich descriptions:

"It's a historical fiction about a woman who is marooned on an island... like ever after meets Robinson Crusoe with a little bit of Titanic."
(81:27)

Becca expresses excitement for the selection, anticipating stimulating discussions in future episodes.

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Notable Quotes from the Episode

1. Becca Freeman on "Stolen Focus" Articulation:

   "It did it in a way that wasn't blamey, where it wasn't a factor of you lazy sack of shit."
   (04:00)

2. Olivia Muenter on Emotional Narratives:

   "The parts that he really intertwined with that experience... were so much more about emotion and creativity than they were about, like, research."
   (15:09)

3. Becca Freeman on TikTok Addiction:

   "TikTok is one of the most nefarious culprits of hijacking your attention... I fall into a hole and I wake up two hours later and I'm like, how did that time go?"
   (19:12)

4. Becca Freeman on Multitasking:

   "I'm easily distracted. I can't work in a cafe, I can't work with music. I need to be in dead silence doing one thing at a time."
   (33:26)

5. Olivia Muenter on Flow States:

   "My most favorite experiences in life... are when you do not recognize the passage of time."
   (37:22)

6. Becca Freeman on Johann Hari's Controversy:

   "He can never earn anything other than a menial wage because he can't do his craft of writing anymore. I don't think that that's realistic."
   (65:44)

7. Olivia Muenter on Social Media Habits:

   "I feel so much happier, but I don't feel like I'm gone either, you know?"
   (52:35)

8. Becca Freeman on Boredom:

   "Boredom is when you do the things that make you feel like you have your life under control. Not being bored is why you always feel busy."
   (77:32)

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Conclusion

Becca Freeman and Olivia Muenter provide a nuanced and introspective analysis of "Stolen Focus," bridging personal experiences with broader societal issues surrounding attention and technology. They candidly discuss the implications of Johann Hari's past controversies while affirming the valuable insights gleaned from his work. The episode encourages listeners to reflect on their own digital habits and embrace strategies to enhance focus and well-being.

For those intrigued by the discussions in this episode, "Stolen Focus" offers a comprehensive exploration of the challenges and solutions related to maintaining attention in an increasingly digital world.

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Connect with Bad On Paper:

• Instagram: @addonpaperpodcast
• Newsletter: @beccafreeman.substack.com
• Olivia’s Instagram: @oliviamentor
• Join the Discussion: Bad On Paper Facebook Group | Geneva Group

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Note: Timestamps are indicative based on the provided transcript and are used to reference specific quotes within the summary.

Transcript

[Olivia Mentor]

Hi everyone and welcome to Bow and Paper podcast. I'm Olivia, mentor.

[Becca Freeman]

And I'm Becca Freeman.

[Olivia Mentor]

And today is our first book club episode of the year. We're going to be talking about Stolen Focus by Johann Hari. I. I'm looking forward to this one.

[Becca Freeman]

I am too. Also for some podcast Inside Baseball. I have cajoled Olivia into recording at 9am on Friday because I have this theory that I sound better. I don't talk as fast. I don't say like as much when we record first thing in the morning because my brain is moving slower. And it's funny because you're the morning person among us. I'm not really a morning person. So we're gonna see how this goes. We've recorded early, randomly when we've had to move the podcast and I always end up liking those episodes. So we'll see if we end up moving our recording time ongoing.

[Olivia Mentor]

I did just do the intro and forget to introduce myself. Slash, then forget how the intro goes. So.

[Becca Freeman]

But I do that all the time.

[Olivia Mentor]

Strong starts.

[Becca Freeman]

I do that all the time.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's fine. It'll be good. It's good to switch things up every now and then for sure.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, tell me your high.

[Olivia Mentor]

My high is that finally everyone I'm sure is on the edge of their seats. Finally. We have a heat source in the writing cottage, so it's done. I'm not in there today because I haven't moved my podcasting equipment in there. It gets below freezing, obviously at night, and I'm just kind of afraid the equipment would get messed up. Maybe when it warms up just slightly. It's been like the coldest week that we've had in so long. Of course I'll be fully in there, but I was in there for most of the day yesterday, like writing, organizing things, getting all my little notebooks, of which there are many. I can't keep pens in there either yet because I'm. Well. Cause I'm afraid the ink will freeze and then explode, which would kind of be a good story. But I have too many nice pens now. It's a real like full circle moment in the house. So it feels great and I'm just excited for like all the seasons in there.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, I'm so excited for you. So wait, how does this work? You have this wood burning stove in there. So you go in the morning and you light it and then how long does it take to become habitable?

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, that's the thing we're trying to figure out. So, I mean, the day that was Installed it was a low of negative eight.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, my God.

[Olivia Mentor]

And so it took like three or four hours to get warm enough to be in there.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

And even then it only got to about 60, which is honestly pretty good when you consider that, like, the ceiling is not insulated. You know, it's still pretty rough and tumble. But I think like, on a normal day it would maybe take an hour to get to being warm enough. And I have like a space heater. So, like in the very early morning I could turn that on, and then in the afternoon I could turn it off. And, you know, you have to like, add wood every hour, which is kind of annoying. But it's. It's a nice excuse to like, stand up, leave my desk, take a breather of the fumes of the fire.

[Becca Freeman]

I just. No, I see this. This feels so you. Like, I see you as somewhat not a trad wife, certainly, but like an Oregon Trail lady. Thank you. And you know, you have your, like, I'm picturing you in like a prairie style dress with a housecoat over it, and you're feeding your fire. And you know, you have your handmade mug, not that you made, but that you probably bought on Etsy. And you know, you're writing longhand. Like, I just see this for you.

[Olivia Mentor]

Thank you so much. It's very nice and it's very quiet in there, which I. I really enjoy, especially with the snow outside. It's. It's lovely. But anyway, tell me about your high.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm having such a high week. I don't have one high. I have 17 highs. Oh, my gosh.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, wow. I'll settle in.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't actually have 17. I just have a lot. Okay. First thing, fix my insurance. What a rush. The hours I have put into solving this problem. And on the phone with customer service. Thrilled. Also, I had the best Monday ever, which sounds very counterintuitive because Monday was also inauguration day and it was a very stressful day, news wise, that I chose to just bury my head in the sand for, because no good is gonna come from me being hyper fixated on like the minute by minute breaking news. So instead I went and I played pickleball for two hours in the morning. Then I went and met my friend Jess. It was her birthday and we went to Color Me Mine to paint pottery, which is my favorite thing. I love painting.

[Olivia Mentor]

What did you paint?

[Becca Freeman]

Pottery. I painted this plate that was shaped like a flower, and then I painted flowers around the edges of it. I'm very excited to see it fired.

[Olivia Mentor]

That sounds Very nice.

[Becca Freeman]

It's so meditative. Like, good, therapeutic exercise. I should do it more often. There's one in Tribeca.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. Especially something creative that's not tied to work. Actually, my therapist was asking me this the other day. She was like, do you paint or anything? Like, do you have a creative outlet that's not writing? And I was like, do I?

[Becca Freeman]

I mean, you have your adult coloring books.

[Olivia Mentor]

I guess that's true. Yeah. I should make more time for it.

[Becca Freeman]

Or your journal. Like your. Your everything journal. Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, that's true.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, back to Monday. So went to Color Me Mine, then went to Magnolia Bakery, which I didn't realize had an outpost on the Upper west side, and got banana pudding, which is fantastic.

[Olivia Mentor]

The best. It's so good.

[Becca Freeman]

Went to a fancy dinner at Dante in Greenwich Village for my friend Lydia's. An early birthday celebration for her. I just did all of my favorite things in one day. It was so ideal.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's a really good day. A really good way to start the week.

[Becca Freeman]

It was so good. And then on Tuesday, I was supposed to get my book feedback, and my editor pushed it a week, which is fine. And so I'd kind of cleared the decks to be ready to receive this feedback and start working on brainstorming in my next book draft. And so instead, I got gifted with all of this. Time to fall into a dragon hole with the latest fourth wing book, which I have so pleasurably been doing this week. During the week, during the workday.

[Olivia Mentor]

I've seen some chatter about this in the Bound Paper Facebook group, and it seems like people are really liking it.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Yeah, I have thoughts. I'll share them at the end in the book section.

[Olivia Mentor]

Ooh. Okay. Did you finish it?

[Becca Freeman]

Sure did. Last night. Three days.

[Olivia Mentor]

Amazing. Amazing. Can't wait to hear.

[Becca Freeman]

What about the lows?

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay, so my low is kind of weird. I had breakfast. The other morning, I woke up, I had breakfast. I made oatmeal with a lot of fresh berries. It was delicious. And then I took a shower, and I looked at my arms, and I had, like, these red raised bumps going up and down my entire arm, from my armpit to my wrist, both my arms. And I was like, what the heck is going on? And then I was examining myself more, and I had them everywhere. On my sides, on the back of my legs. And I was like, what the heck is this? And so I realized that they're hives. I was like, okay, I'm having an allergic reaction to something. And the only thing I ate that was a little Bit different is I had blackberries. And so I was like, maybe I'm allergic to fresh blackberries because I have frozen blackberries basically multiple times a week.

[Becca Freeman]

Hmm.

[Olivia Mentor]

I was like, that's weird. And so they kind of hung around. They started to fade. And then this morning, I got dressed, went downstairs. I felt kind of weird. And so I looked down again, and, like, they were back times like two.

[Becca Freeman]

Have you changed any of your laundry products?

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, no, but this is the interesting thing. I was wearing the same thing both times. It was, like this sweatsuit, the same material. And I think I've determined that's what it is. Like, I don't know if you can. Can you see my arm? How?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, a little bit. Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

So like, that times like, 12 is all along my sides, like, where the pants sort of were, like, resting on my waist. But it's just weird because I've worn these clothes, like, hundreds of times probably. I don't know. It was just kind of alarming because I'm not allergic to anything. As far as I know. I never have been. And they feel okay. Like, they're not particularly itchy. I took like, a Benadryl the first day. Anyway, it was just kind of alarming as someone who, like, doesn't really like health stuff. So I'm burning this close.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, no. I get hives frequently. Like, I just have sensitive skin, and I think sometimes, I don't know, I just have too much histamine in my body and I'll, like, get hives randomly or react to things that I don't usually react to for a week, and then it won't bother me again. So I don't know, Maybe try again next week.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. I wonder if it was a laundry product or something or maybe dust or. I don't know. It's definitely not, like, a high quality material sweatsuit. It's definitely like an acrylic or a nylon. So maybe it, like, broke down.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

Cause it's old. I don't know. Over here. Diagnosing myself, per usual. Dr. Olivia, Dr. Google. Together we form a medical practice. Well, what's your low?

[Becca Freeman]

I don't really have much of a low. I think my low is just how cold it's been here. We've had multiple days that the high has been 18. It is very cold, and I just feel very cooped up.

[Olivia Mentor]

Mm. Yeah. It's been very hard to make myself go outside.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Like, very, very hard.

[Becca Freeman]

I just haven't been unless I have plans or errands that I need to do, so I've just been going outside a lot less than usual and I don't know. I tried walking on my walking pad the other day and I was watching Severance while I was doing it and I just don't like the walking pad. It doesn't feel.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm actually a good.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm like, when can I get off?

[Olivia Mentor]

You can just imagine you're walking through the many hallways.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, exactly.

[Olivia Mentor]

Of Lumen.

[Becca Freeman]

Exactly.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. I've never tried a walking pad, but I don't know if I would. I don't know how I'd feel about it. I don't know.

[Becca Freeman]

I thought I would love it and I don't. It was so funny. I just came to an entry in my five year journal the other week that talked about when I bought the walking pad and I was like, I feel like this is gonna be a game changer for me. And then I was like, ha ha. I've used it five times. I hate it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, lesson learned.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, let's take an ad break and get into this book I'm very excited to discuss.

[Olivia Mentor]

This episode is sponsored by Masterclass. So just yesterday I was talking to my therapist about how I want one of my hobbies for this year to be learning. I really want to improve the craft of writing and to approach it from a spirit of curios, like as a student instead of, you know, just worrying about all of the scarier business aspects of it all the time. And that's why I am so excited about Masterclass. I can learn from the best writers out there and I don't even have to leave my house once.

[Becca Freeman]

I am so excited about the variety of options on Masterclass. There's really a class for everything. There's a class for turning your passions into achievements with the legend herself, Martha Stewart. I want to learn anything Martha has to teach me. There are creative writing classes with Margaret Atwood. There are lessons on how to do improv and overcome fears with Amy Poehler. I also love the idea of taking a class that I find interesting that has zero applicability to my own life just for the heck of it. So I was browsing last night and for instance, they have. You know how much I love any spy show. And there's a class about the art of intelligence taught by former CIA officers. Like, what a great way to spend an hour and 13 minutes instead of, say, scrolling.

[Olivia Mentor]

That sounds incredibly interesting. Especially after I have watched Day of the Jackal. Although that's Assassins and I don't think they have an assassin class, which is probably good. Anyway, I am looking forward to diving into the masterclass lessons from Joyce Carol Oates especially, who does a class that's all about the art of the short story, which I really, really want to learn more about and get better at. I plan on watching the videos and making like a whole date of it for myself, like a solo date. I'm going to bring snacks. I'll probably put myself in the writing cottage. I'll bring notebooks, pens, fun drinks. It's going to be great. It's going to be going to like my own little day camp for my brain.

[Becca Freeman]

If you also want to make learning one of your hobbies this year, right now our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual [e-mail] BOP that's 15% [e-mail] BOP masterclass.com BOP all right, Olivia, so into this book, I forgot to put a summary. I would say as the summary that this is a nonfiction book about our societal decline in focus and attention and looking at the factors that play into that and what we can do to reverse that. And it's told alongside the author's personal story of a summer where he goes to Cape Cod without any Internet connected devices to try to reclaim his own attention.

[Olivia Mentor]

Tell us your thoughts on the book. We kind of know your thoughts, but refresh us.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. So this is my second time listening to the book. I did the audio both times. I first read it last year when Leslie Stevens came on the podcast for the episode we did about phone and social media habits and addiction. And this was one of her recommendations. And I loved it. I think what I loved about it so much was, first of all, that it kind of articulated and explained with factual data a lot of the feelings that I had about myself and my own habits, but that I couldn't really put my finger on. And it did it in a way that wasn't blamey, where it wasn't a factor of you lazy sack of shit. This is your fault because you don't have the willpower to stay off your phone. I also, as a serial nonfiction abandoner, I really have a lot of trouble with nonfiction. It just, it feels like more of a slog to me to read. It's not what I enjoy reading. I thought that the framing of this alongside a personal narrative was really helpful. For me, it wasn't just data. It wasn't just facts. And I feel like, because it was kind of, it's interesting. I feel like this book was almost set up for our lack of focus because it did kind of hit on a lot of different issues. It was kind of a broad survey. I feel like a lot of these chapters could have almost been their own book. But I do feel like by kind of going through multiple different things, it held my attention more. So. I loved this.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I overall did, too. I mean, especially the first third of the book. Like, here, I'll flip through it for you so you can see, like, how much I highlighted, like, it's literally, like every page, I highlighted something. And I think it's because the parts that he really intertwined with that experience of going to Provincetown and, like, not being on his phone were so much more about emotion and creativity than they were about, like, research. And they just spoke to me so deeply. Especially, like, as I've made pretty big changes in my life in terms of social media over the past, like, six months or so that have, like, really changed me and changed how I think about myself. Like, there were so many parts that I underlined, and I was like, this is exactly it. Like, this is it. And I was flipping through some of my highlighted parts last night. And I think the reason that I maybe struggled a little bit more with the last third, say, is there's this one line in the beginning where he's like, I was standing at the ocean with my palms wide open, staring out into the sea. And that is the opposite of Facebook. And that is so perfect to me and so poetic and beautiful. And then you get to the end, and it's like, research, stats, interviews. And that's just maybe didn't speak to me quite as much. But it also could be because I'm just really more interested in the social media part of it than, like, adhd.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, the second half also really dealt a lot with raising children, which, yes, personally, is not an experience I expect to have. So it's something I care about broadly in a societal way, but it's not something that affects me. And so I cared more about the part that had to do with myself than the part that had to do with theoretical children that I don't have.

[Olivia Mentor]

Right, Yes, I would agree with that. Was there a specific part to you that, like, really hit home or you find yourself still thinking about?

[Becca Freeman]

I thought that a lot of the parts about our current workplace were very interesting to me, as were the social media chapters. Yeah, I think I really vibed with the first half, and then once it got into kind of some of the more environmental factors around lead, and then the chapters on ADHD and kind of child rearing, that was still interesting to me. And I do think I said this to you on Wednesday when we talked. The author narrates the audiobook and he has a very soothing and engaging British voice. And so it really, it still kept me going.

[Olivia Mentor]

Always helps. Always helps.

[Becca Freeman]

But yeah, I definitely vibed more with some of the workplace stuff and the social media stuff.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I would agree with that. I also think that I was reading this kind of right around the inauguration with all of those tech billionaires sitting basically in the front row. It put a very interesting spin on reading about the big, like, systemic problems that are like, really, really, really out of our hands. And so I think it made it hard for me to read about. I mean, even the environmental stuff. It's like we're at a time where, like, it's easy to feel like, okay, everything is stacked against us, you know, like, it feels like sort of in terms of these big corporations, these social media companies, they don't have any interest in helping us feel better. And I don't think they will, you know, because they have the government on their side now, too. So I think it easy for me to sort of skim those parts a little bit more than I maybe would have otherwise.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, yeah, I feel like the inauguration is definitely an interesting, timely overlap, but also the fact that right now the TikTok ban is such a hot subject of debate. And I think TikTok is one of the most nefarious culprits of hijacking your attention. Like, I can't be on it because when I'm on TikTok, I just. I fall into a hole and I wake up two hours later and I'm like, how did.

[Olivia Mentor]

Where am I?

[Becca Freeman]

Where did that time go? And I feel like that has been designed in such a way to just be so attention stealing.

[Olivia Mentor]

Here's a question about TikTok I have for you, actually. Do you think that there is a world in which you could have TikTok on your phone and use it in moderation right now?

[Becca Freeman]

No, I tried that. And so now I'm just kind of like, you can't have it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, that's kind of how I feel about all social media.

[Becca Freeman]

When somebody sends me one and I can just open it and look at one. Yes, I can do it in moderation, but once I start scrolling, I just get sucked in. Like, the algorithm is such that I feel kind of powerless against it in a way that I feel like I should be better than, but I am certainly not.

[Olivia Mentor]

Someone told me that Instagram is now changing the how the grid looks so. It looks more like TikTok. Have you heard this?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, they did change the grid.

[Olivia Mentor]

Everything okay? I'm really. I haven't updated my app probably, but does that scare you? The algorithm gets closer and closer to that?

[Becca Freeman]

No, because I don't. I mean, I don't think the reals algorithm even nearly approaches the TikTok algorithm right now. I'm sure they're trying to work on it, but.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

So one of the things in the book that really stuck with me was this notion that depth is the cost of speed. And this is just a super brief section where he kind of hypothesizes that there being some kind of future class divide existing between people who can protect their attention and people who can't. And that just reminded me so much of the TikTok of it all. And it feels very infinite, gestian, you know, the people who are just mindlessly sucked in and then the people who aren't. And it is interesting because, you know, I think there is a class divide on, you hear. Whenever you hear, like, millionaires and billionaires speak, they always talk about buying their time where time is the most precious resource. And so they're outsourcing things. That's why they have chefs and assistants and whatnot, because they're buying back their time. And then, you know, everyone else is just on TikTok, just giving hours of their time away for free. It's. I don't know. That really resonated with me in a scary, dystopian way.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I appreciated how much it touched on, like, how class affects really all of this in different ways. For example, I think part of the benefit of, like, being able to pursue a creative career of, like, a thing you love, like we are, is that we do experience this state of, like, flow that he talks about in the book, where you're, like, so deeply in this thing that you love and you're getting so much satisfaction out of it. I think that if you're not in a career, as I don't think most people are privileged to be in, like, where you're experiencing that, it's really hard to, like, understand that. It's really hard to, like, find a reason, I guess, to get off of your phone, you know, because you don't know what the opposite of that feels like.

[Becca Freeman]

So.

[Olivia Mentor]

So if, like, being in a deep state of flow is the opposite of.

[Becca Freeman]

Scrolling, I think other people get that in different ways. Like, the discussion of flow really reminded me a lot of the way people talk about runner's high where you get lost in it. And so I think that there's other ways outside of work that you can experience flow. And I think reading for me is a big way that I experience flow. Like I was thinking of the time that I read the first fourth Wing book and I just was so lost in that and it sucked me in so deeply that I was probably reading until 3 or 4 in the morning. Just the time was slipping away. So I think there's other non work focused ways for people to experience flow states that I think are probably familiar to most people.

[Olivia Mentor]

Totally. I guess a better way to explain what I was saying is like if you have three kids, you're a single mom and you're working full time, the odds that you are able to experience know two hours of uninterrupted reading or running like it becomes harder and harder when like everything is kind of working against you to be in those moments. And I think it then becomes easier when you do have those few free moments to like just dive into scrolling because it's right there, it's easy and it's free.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Yeah. I also found this statistic in the book that most American office workers never get an uninterrupted hour of time. I was like, I absolutely believe that. And that's kind of horrifying.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. I was thinking so much about my brief time working in an office when I was reading that section. I'm sure you were too. And I remember thinking all the time, like, we don't need to be here for this long. Did you think that all the time? Like when you were at your desk and you were just like, I could have done this in four hours? Or were you really truly heads down working all eight hours that you were sitting there?

[Becca Freeman]

No. I mean when I left my last full time in house job, I really felt like I was a professional meeting attender where I just went for hours a day from one meeting to the next meeting to the next meeting. If a meeting ended earlier, if I had snatches of time, I was checking my email and any work that required focus I was largely doing outside of work. Or we instituted no meetings Wednesday, which was supposed to be a day where you could get focused work done. But by and large my job was going to meetings.

[Olivia Mentor]

Wow. And do you agree that most meetings can be emails or do you think that there is an important purpose for face to face meetings?

[Becca Freeman]

I think there is an important case for face to face meetings. I think things get drawn out over emails that could just be decided. But I Think that meeting culture has spawned in a way where there's probably too many people that don't need to be in meetings, who are in meetings and that they don't have clear agendas and so they sprawl well beyond the amount of time that's needed.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I don't miss meetings, I'll be honest. Yeah, I mean, we have meetings, but it's not really like a meeting meeting.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. And I mean we have, we have very few meetings. Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

But going back to this trip he went on, I'm curious if you think you could go on a trip where you just get rid of everything for three or a month or two. Like, is this something that appeals to you? Would you want to try it? Do you think you succeed?

[Becca Freeman]

I definitely couldn't do three months, I don't think. I do have a curiosity about doing it for say, two weeks and going somewhere remote, having a project that I'm working on and just having a very monastic life of, you know, I'm working on the project, I'm reading. I picture this somewhere with a beach. So I'm spending time outside, I'm spending time on the beach, but I'm not doing much else. And I think I would really enjoy that. I think it's. And he recognizes this too. I think it's certainly well beyond the means of many people that it just like doesn't make sense if you have many jobs to be able to fuck off somewhere for even two weeks, nevermind three months. And I don't know how I would do. I don't know how I would feel. I think it's a real question mark for me if I would enjoy it or not. I feel like I'm predicting that you're gonna say that you would love to do it and you could do it for a whole three months.

[Olivia Mentor]

I think I could. I think that I would definitely experience the sort of. I think it was like after two weeks he had a moment of like existential panic where he was like not getting the dopamine that he was used to, which I have definitely experienced many times as I've spent less time on social media. And it's a really uncomfortable thing to grapple with. And I think that I'm still kind of working through it and this would be the boot camp to do it. But I mean, I really did appreciate that about his experience, that he was honest, that like, yeah, there was a point where it was like, oh, this is not romantic anymore. This is actually really, really uncomfortable. But yes, I would like this only because there was a time in my life where I literally could not even think of the concept of not sharing something on my phone that I was doing that I liked. Like, it made me physically anxious because I felt like I was missing out on a way to feel good about myself or a way to make money or that I would be boring or that people would leave or that I was bombing my career. And now I. Like, I'm okay with that idea. Like, it seems okay to me. Maybe not completely comfortable, but yeah, I would try this for sure. I think it would be harder than I think, though.

[Becca Freeman]

I can see you. I mean, I think. Didn't you kind of do this on your vacation that you just took? I mean, you certainly had an Internet connected device, so you weren't fully cut off. But you said that you didn't really. You weren't on Instagram at all. You just, you were reading and writing.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I think I went on for like five minutes a day and I posted like one photo or something. And I certainly could have not done that, but I felt the urge to do, like, I felt like I had to do. I had to do at least that, you know, which is so stupid. Stupid. But it's like, it's very hard to unlearn when it's just so directly tied to, like, who you are as a person. Like, sharing is just. I've never lived life as an adult and not shared every single moment of my life, like, ever.

[Becca Freeman]

That's so interesting because I feel like for me, I got Instagram started when I was 24. And when Instagram first started, it was very much not about selfies. Like, I think my first photo is. We went on. I went on this cross country road trip and it's just like a photo of the highway with a really intense yellow filter on it. And certainly stories didn't exist yet. And so I don't know when Instagram stories started, but it probably wasn't until I was maybe even close to 30. So I do feel like I have this experience of adulthood where social media was less top of mind.

[Olivia Mentor]

Like, do you find yourself missing that ever? Or feeling nostalgic about it or remembering how certain, like, events or experiences were different?

[Becca Freeman]

Yes and no. I mean, I definitely feel like it was less of a internal battle with myself about how much time I was spending on my phone. Like, it just felt natural. Something that throughout this book I really struggled with is the idea of, like putting all of these intense interventions in place where he talks about having a case safe, where he locks his phone away or using Internet blocking apps. And I think for me, I want my habits to feel natural, and I don't know that that's realistic. And so I think I. I definitely romanticize how natural my relationship with my phone felt in a way that didn't feel addictive. But I'm not like, oh, my God. I remember the experience of going to a concert where nobody was recording it, and that was so much more special. Like, I don't. I don't think that was true.

[Olivia Mentor]

Hmm. Were you, like, really on Facebook before Instagram? Cause I was definitely, like, addicted to Facebook in high school. Like, oh, checking my messages, uploading things, commenting like I was on all the time.

[Becca Freeman]

I certainly was a heavy Facebook user in college because it was. I think I'm like, a year younger than Mark Zuckerberg, maybe or two. So it was one of the first years that had Facebook, and it was when it was only college. So your parents weren't on it. It wasn't like, stranger. It was literally just college. So I remember especially going to the summer before my freshman year, going and meeting classmates was really exciting. And then on it, Posting photo albums during college and posting on each other's walls, but I never felt addicted to it, certainly.

[Olivia Mentor]

Do you think it's because it wasn't on our phones?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, probably.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. Maybe that's the key.

[Becca Freeman]

And I've heard that. I've heard that from other people. I know Leslie Stevens has said that too. My friend Zoe doesn't use Instagram on her phone. And I even find this with TikTok, because sometimes I'll click through if somebody texts me a TikTok, I'll click through on my computer because it doesn't always let me watch it on my phone. It tries to make me download the app. But I can watch it on my computer, and I don't find that it has the same addictive quality.

[Olivia Mentor]

I totally agree.

[Becca Freeman]

Can we switch gears a bit? One of the things in this book that boggled my mind was the piece where multitasking was discussed and that multitasking is not real. And what you're actually doing is juggling. But there's a switching cost when you switch between tasks. And it was also really funny because I was listening to this on audio, and, you know, I feel this compulsion to make every minute productive. So I was trying to do other things at multiple times, and I was like, I could. Literally. I was proving this to myself as I was listening to this book that multitasking is not real. But I guess I'm Curious. Have you ever considered yourself a great multitasker?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. But I was wrong. Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

I mean, what would an example be?

[Olivia Mentor]

I think the best example is probably like when I was working as an editor, I was in the office. I could be writing a story, I could stop, I could check my email, I could go back to the story, I could post on Instagram, I could check my notifications, I could go back to the story. I could do it a million times. And I was always doing a million things at a time. It felt during that period of my life. I don't know. I notice now how different writing something feels when it's like that is what I'm focusing on and I'm not being pulled in a bunch of different directions. And it's so much deeper and so much more satisfying, even when it's just as difficult. But now I notice when I try to clean the house, I am like, I cannot focus. I will find myself in a room and I'll clean out the closet and I'll be like, oh, look at this notebook. And then I'll start making a list and then I'll sit down and then I'll think like, you know, actually I should really organize the linen closet. And then I'll start doing that and then I'll make a pile of things to donate and then I'll leave that. Which I think is actually maybe just like textbooking. Maybe I do have a touch of ADD or adhd, I don't know. But that's the part of my life that I feel like I really have trouble. Just staying on task is like house stuff and cleaning. What about you? I feel like you are someone that I would be like, Becca can do six things at once and they will all be done very well.

[Becca Freeman]

No, I don't think that I've ever been an excellent multitasker. I am one of those people. I'm easily distracted. I can't work in a cafe, I can't work with music. I need to be in dead silence doing one thing at a time. And I've always known this about myself. And so I feel like this is almost somewhat gratifying to hear that other people aren't just getting more done or have like the skill that I don't have. I mean, I'm certainly like, as an example, the other week when I was on this two hour long three way call trying to fix my insurance stuff, I was doing house stuff while I was doing it because I was mostly on hold. So I can do two things at once, but I Cannot focus on two things.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay. I mean, it's hard. I talked about this maybe here on Substack, but one of the things I hated the most about my social media use is that I would be on all the time while doing something else. And so I would never be focused on anything, even if it was just a conversation or something. If there was a lull, I'd look down at my phone and then I. I'd be in this other space. And I hated that feeling at the time. It was second nature to me. But it's not pleasant. It just feels like you're so scattered.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

So going back quickly to the part where he talked about flow states, this was one of the most impactful parts of the book for me because I have thought about this a lot, especially in the last couple years, but I had never really put it into the words that he did. And I know you mentioned reading and I certainly experienced that too. Are there any other areas where you feel like you have achieved this flow state where you're hyper focused in this single task that you, I would assume, love? I think that's part of it. It's meaningful to you, I guess, is what he says.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, so I definitely have experienced it before with writing, but it doesn't feel like I'm experiencing it frequently writing. And I don't know if that's a product of my work habits or. I guess my biggest lingering question from this section was with what frequency is it realistic to experience this? And I feel like twice a year I have what I've termed to my therapist a non medically concerning manic streak. And it's funny because two years in a row, and I'm curious to see if this happens again. It happened when the springtime change, it was like that week. And so I don't know if it's just the weather, the time, I don't know. But for a week, maybe two weeks, I'm just so creatively locked in, turned on. I'm on fire creatively. And that is when I feel this flow state. And then outside of that, sometimes I'll be writing a scene and I'll be really into it and I'll experience some float. But I'm like, is this a state that people are reaching every day? Is this a state that people are reaching once a week? Like, what is a realistic frequency for this? Because he gives criteria where it's like you're doing one thing at a time, it's meaningful to you and it's at the edge of your abilities and not beyond them. And it's like, that sounds like something one could do every day, theoretically. But, like, he gives an example of an artist, like, is somebody who is painting, Are they getting into this flow state every day?

[Olivia Mentor]

Hmm. It's a very good question. Very good question. I would imagine it is possible. Yes.

[Becca Freeman]

I would love to read more deeply on this concept.

[Olivia Mentor]

Me too. This is the part that spoke to me most deeply.

[Becca Freeman]

Like, how frequently would you say you're reaching this state in your writing?

[Olivia Mentor]

Specifically, I would say probably 80% of the time, but for various lengths of time. So, like, if I write for three hours a day, which I'm certainly not doing right now, but I would say 80% of the time, at least one third of that time is, like, in a sort of flow state.

[Becca Freeman]

Wow. Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

My most favorite experiences in life of any kind, writing, reading, whatever, are when you do not recognize the passage of time.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

When you look up and you're like, oh, it's the end of the day. Like, that to me, it should, on paper, I guess, be like, it should feel like you're wasting time. But that, to me is like, the most, like, completely delicious experience of life where you're like, oh, I just completely zoned out for six hours and did something I love. Yeah, but certainly not every time.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

And.

[Becca Freeman]

But yeah, I guess the other experience that I associate strongly with flow is reading. And I imagine our community, who I think are mostly book lovers, probably also really resonated with the chapter on reading. I also felt, I'll admit, like, pretty morally superior during this chapter where I was very interested, that the decline in reading is a contributing factor to the decline in focus. And it makes sense because when I'm reading, it is one of the very few times that I actually do not have the choice to do something else. It is something that takes my full attention when I'm writing. The browser is right there. I can open another tab. Sometimes I have my phone by me. Like, reading is something that I do feel like is, like, all encompassing.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, it is. I love it. The more I do it, also, like, the more I want to do it. That's the thing. Like, it's. I mean, I'm not gonna sit here and say how much I love reading. Everyone knows, but I agree with you.

[Becca Freeman]

It was also really interesting to see it laid out because I feel like it feels very circular for me. Like, I feel like when I am unfocused, I cannot read. And then when I cannot read, I do not feel like myself. Like, it feels very circular for Me. And then I have to get back to reading to feel like myself again. But I wonder if somebody who isn't in the regular habit of reading and you don't have that circle. I understand how it would be an enabling factor that deteriorates your focus because you don't have an intrinsic motivation to get back to that focus state.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I've said this before, but like, reading really is like a habit, like you just said, and a practice, you know. And I have had times in my life, certainly where I was barely reading a book or two a year. And it wasn't because I didn't love reading. You know, I've always loved it. But when you're out of it and when you're out of it and you're on your phone on the time you would be reading, it feels like this herculean task to sit down and just look at a page and only do that, and you just forget how good it feels to be lost in it. I think so, yeah. You're totally right.

[Becca Freeman]

It was interesting. As I was reading this, I keep saying interesting.

[Olivia Mentor]

This is all very interesting.

[Becca Freeman]

I know as I was reading this, I saw that the Washington Post put out their reading stats survey. I don't have a Washington Post subscription, so I couldn't actually read the article and I couldn't get it to load with the workaround thing that I usually do. But one of my favorite newsletters as seen on how to report out of it. So I'll just read you these really quickly. So in 2024, 64% of Americans read a book last year, which was up from 54% the year before. So more people are reading at least one book a year, which is good. And then 11% of people read at least 20 books a year. So I think that's probably a lot of our audience. So you're in the 11% of people, which is. I don't know. I think there's an inclination to think of your own habits as the baseline as normal. And so to realize that only 11% of people are reading 20 books a year. I was, like, surprised by that, I guess. Surprised and not surprised.

[Olivia Mentor]

I mean, I think the book has this stat about the 54% of Americans only read one book a year. And that horrified me. I was like, it shouldn't have. But anyway, I'm glad to see it's going up.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. And then women, white Americans and higher earners tend to have twice as many super readers. And then in 2024, young people, Black Americans and Hispanic Americans showed Much improved readership, which I think was the quote from the piece. And then liberals read almost twice as much as conservatives, non parents read twice as much as parents, and older people read far more than younger people. I'm almost tempted to get a Washington Post subscription just to be able to read this.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I would love to know more stats for sure. And it makes me wonder how much that's said about black Americans and Hispanic Americans reading more now, how much that is directly correlated to the fact that there historically has not been, in publishing, enough emphasis on diverse authors at all. And so, anyway, it's just interesting to think about how much socioeconomic and cultural and political things influence something that seems as mundane as reading.

[Becca Freeman]

I feel like we're running pretty long here, so let's keep it moving into the technology piece, which I know both of us found very interesting. I'm curious how this made you feel.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, like I said, after having to look at photos of Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos in the capital of the United States all week, didn't make me feel great. Because I just think that both the book and those images and the reality of that really emphasized to me just how much greed and evil is behind a lot of this and how much they do not care. That was. What was the point they're doing? They do not give a shit.

[Becca Freeman]

I guess I hadn't thought about how purposeful a lot of it was. Like how they're using psychological principles to make it more addictive and it felt more manipulative when he explained it in this way than I think I'd maybe assumed. I had associated more with the unintended side effects. Where he talks about how they invented filters, where it was a cool way to make your photo look instantly artistic, and then how that has impacted how we see our own faces and standards of beauty, where it was an unintended side effect. Or with Infinite scroll, where it was like, people are frustrated that it takes more time for the page to load, so we'll just keep making it scroll endlessly. But then it's unintentionally more addictive. And I guess I hadn't. This is naive, but I hadn't really thought about the purposefulness behind it. And specifically, there was one point where he talks about Facebook having commissioned a study which, in black and white told them that it was a negative cultural factor that was doing harm, and they decided not to care.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, they do not care at all. Yeah, I think what I've realized and what this book really Underlined for me is that when it comes to social media, I think the bad outweighs the good in such a undeniable way when it comes to the effects. But at the same time, like, I have gotten so much good out of it, and it has done so much for me, like, in terms of connecting with other people, but also, like, my career. And it's really hard to hold both of those truths. It's really hard because I just don't think there's any. I mean, what Twitter has become, like, the way Met is going. I don't know how you look at those anymore and think, like, that's fine, it's hard. At the same time, it's so woven into how we interact as human beings, it feels impossible to fully let it go. So that's a really tough thing that I don't know if I've quite figured out yet.

[Becca Freeman]

I totally feel like Twitter has crossed the Rubicon into being, like, a negative force. However, I. And maybe this is naive, but I am still grappling with the fact that it feels to me like if I could right size my usage of them on a personal level, which, you know, through this book, so much of it is that this is a societal issue that we're trying to solve with personal interventions. But if I could just figure out the way that I could use, let's say, TikTok, which is my kind of, like, most addictive, most negative one, if I could figure out a way to use that for 15 minutes a day, like, I don't think that that's too negative, or I do find a lot of personal benefit in Instagram in terms of connecting with other people and discovering things. And I think I feel pretty happy with my Instagram habits right now. There is this part of me that says if I could just figure out my own habits around these things, I could still get the good without letting the bad touch me as much. But I don't know how realistic that is. It feels like it does feel naive.

[Olivia Mentor]

I don't think it's naive. I mean, I think that that's kind of how I felt. And I feel. I don't feel perfect about my social media use or how it makes me feel emotionally or any of that, but I feel like I've gone from feeling like a two about it to like, an eight. And if 10 is, like, perfect, I wouldn't change a thing. And one is, like, totally not in my control. My habits are not. I don't control them at all. Like, I feel like I have gotten better. But, you know, there's only so much you can do about the, like, the Mark Zuckerbergs of the world. And maybe that's okay. Like, you know, he's going to do whatever he's going to do on his little surfboard. I don't know if you've seen those videos.

[Becca Freeman]

I sure have.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay.

[Becca Freeman]

I sure have. Well, why don't we take another ad break before we continue our discussion?

[Olivia Mentor]

This episode is sponsored by Cozy Earth. So I am here to report back on my goal of getting my best sleep ever this year. And to say that the other night an alarm went off in our house, which it was nothing, but anyway, it went off. Jake had to go downstairs to like get it to stop going off twice, come back upstairs, the whole thing when he was going with him when he was barking. And I slept through the entire thing, like from start to finish. In the morning, Jake was like, do you remember any of that? And I was like, nope. And I was out. I was bundled and I was wrapped in Cozy Earth sheets. Is that a coincidence? I don't know. But I can say that sleeping this soundly does feel very good.

[Becca Freeman]

I think the best part about Cozy Earth sheets is that they get softer with each and every wash. So you just love them more and more over time. Their bamboo sheet set is one of Cozy Earth's best selling products. I believe it's also a former Oprah's favorite thing. And they're made from 100% premium viscose from Bamboo. Pair those with their long sleeve bamboo pajama set and you are just all set for the ideal sleep.

[Olivia Mentor]

And then you could like add a cuddle blanket from Cozy Earth on top and you just might never get out of bed. Who knows?

[Becca Freeman]

It's like my year of rest and relaxation. That's how that happened.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. You're just going to be cocooned. It'll be great. Between my deep passion for Cozy Earth towels and bedding, I am basically in physical contact with a Cozy Earth item for I would say 60% of my hours as a human being. And I am just, I'm not complaining. It's great.

[Becca Freeman]

A better year starts with better sleep. Visit cozyearth.com and use our exclusive 40% off code BOP. That's 40, 40% off with code BOP. And if you get a post purchase survey, be sure to tell them that you heard about Cozy Earth from this podcast.

[Olivia Mentor]

So what did you think about his. His sort of conclusion that he came to in the book?

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I think it's a tough thing because he laid out so many big problems. And admittedly, both times I read it, I was feeling pretty grim by the time I left the end where it was like, yes, I think he's effectively proven that it's not just me. I'm not alone. I'm not at fault. But what do we do about these things? And so I do feel like his conclusion brought it around probably as much as it could be. But I think it's somewhat of a cautionary tale book of, like, look what we've done.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, it is scary. I mean, it's scary to think where we will be in 10 years when all of these tech companies have completely unchecked power. Totally, like, completely unchecked, and some would argue, immoral.

[Becca Freeman]

So I wrote down his personal takeaways from his own research. And I'm curious if these resonate with you and you feel like they could be applied to your life or you already do them. Do you want to go through them?

[Olivia Mentor]

Sure. So the first thing he said was pre commitment to stop switching tasks. So he has his little phone safe he uses, and then he has an Internet blocking app.

[Becca Freeman]

I hate this one.

[Olivia Mentor]

I find the phone safe thing very, like, counterintuitive to, like, actually changing your habits.

[Becca Freeman]

But I'm sure it works. I just hate the idea of needing to infantilize myself this way. And maybe it's what's needed. And it does sound like it works for him, but I hate the idea of this. I just. I have an immediate negative physical reaction to it.

[Olivia Mentor]

My first thought was like, what if you need to call 911 and your phone is locked up? I don't know if this is necessary for everyone to change your habits. I just don't. I don't think it is. But if it did work for some people, you know, hey, like, fine. So the second one was that he changed how he responds to his own distraction, like seeking flow, versus basically beating himself up and being like, you're so stupid. Why? Why are you this way? I appreciate this one personally very much because I. I think in life, in all things, shaming yourself will get you nowhere. Nowhere at all. I've learned that the hard way and continue to learn that so much, and it proves true in basically everything. So I love this one personally.

[Becca Freeman]

I agree. I do think that this is somewhat unrealistic in terms of. He talks about seeking flow, where, like, what would bring me flow right now? And oftentimes that is not what I actually need to do in order to earn an income or in order to get done what I have for the day. And so I appreciate the last shame. I like having the factors you need for flow outlined to think about. But you know, like, so often I feel like that would mean for me sitting down and reading instead of actually getting anything done.

[Olivia Mentor]

Hmm. I kind of interpreted this as like, I thought of myself, like, for example, when I'm done eating dinner, I have many options. I can sit on the couch and scroll and watch TV I don't care about, or I can read. One of those things adds something to my life. The other thing generally makes me feel worse. That's how I thought about it. Okay, but I see your point about like, the actual, like, work stuff. Like.

[Becca Freeman]

Yes.

[Olivia Mentor]

Sometimes you just need to do stuff that is not going to bring you flow. 100%.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay, so the next one, this is an interesting one. It was to take six months of the year off of social divided into, like, chunks. So not six months, you know, full stop. Like two months at a time or a few weeks at a time. And he always like announces this. He says, like, oh, I'll be going offline. Here's where you can reach me. Maybe. I don't even know if he says that. What do you think about this one?

[Becca Freeman]

I don't want to do that. I also think it's unrealistic both because part of my job is being on social media, even though in many ways it's to promote things like the podcast or to promote my newsletter. And I. I think I probably could go off social media. And I know Leslie Stevens made this decision where she was like, I just won't have this channel to promote my work. And it hasn't really affected her newsletter at all. But I don't know. I don't see this for myself.

[Olivia Mentor]

I don't feel like I need to do this. So, like, I feel pretty okay about my habits at the moment, but I do think that it probably would be good for anyone. But personally, I. The way my career is being as online as it is, I just don't think I could. So the next one was mind wandering. So he takes a one hour walk every day without his phone. How do you feel about this one?

[Becca Freeman]

I like this one. I. I'm not necessarily gonna do it without my phone. I know that I feel my best when I take an hour walk. I actually think listening to music while I'm on a walk does sometimes help me reach a different state. I try not to be listening to a podcast or an audiobook and have somebody else in my head while I'm on A creative walk. But I do know for myself that I feel my best when I do this.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I like this one too. I have been trying to do those walks with Winnie and I don't listen to anything. Sometimes Jake comes so you know, there's another person. But generally I just enjoy the quiet and it's been nice. So the next one is eight hours of sleep a night and a pre sleep routine where he like lights a candle. I think he says he's not on his phone for two hours before he goes to sleep, which is I think pretty ambitious. Did you like this one?

[Becca Freeman]

I mean I like this because I am already maniacal about sleep. Like I need eight hours of sleep. So now having a justification for it feels great. I certainly don't have a pre sleep routine, but I am maniacal about knowing that I do not function well if I don't get enough sleep. What about you?

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm the same way. Yeah, Jake always makes fun of me, but I'm a nine hour girly. Like I gotta have nine hours. That's just how I am. It's like clockwork. Like if I go to sleep at 10, I'm waking up at 7, if I go to sleep at 9, I'm waking up at 6. Like.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I have seen that women need more. And I mean so much of medical research is built off of men and especially college aged men. And so it's not, you know, like eight hours is, I think, like probably isn't the minimum. I think it's also just like an outdated, oversimplified statistic.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, but I think in general all of our sleep hygiene could use improvements. So I'm on board with this one as well. And then the last one was kind of interesting. It was like unstructured play with young people in his life. Like just kind of letting them be kids and not trying to control the interactions. Did I interpret that correctly when I read it? Let me know.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I thought this was interesting because my inclination as being any kid in my life's fun aunt is wanting to buy you something, take you somewhere cool, do something special. But it was interesting to hear that, you know, having unstructured playtime is potentially more meaningful to development. I don't know that I'll fully change my behavior, but this is just an interesting thing to think about.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, it is. You know, it made me think about. So I go to this nail salon and every time I'm there, the owner's young daughter is there. She's like 4 or 5 and she plays with like Every customer, she, like, plays pretend with all of them.

[Becca Freeman]

So.

[Olivia Mentor]

So the other day I was getting a pedicure and we. For like an hour, we played ice cream shop. And she was like, how many scoops do you want? It was like, over and over again. And usually I would be like, I don't know if I'm. I'm not around kids a lot, so I'm like. I don't know if I'm, like, doing it right, you know, like, playing, like, being cool enough or fun enough. And, like, I just kind of let myself just, like, it's just kind of fun to play pretend and imagine and do whatever.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

And it was just kind of like a lovely little. So, yeah, I think this one is cool.

[Becca Freeman]

I felt very wistful about the progressive schools he was talking about in the second half of the book. I was like, me too. I want to go to that school where I can just, like, go up to somebody and be like, teach me about this. Or find, like, a completely arbitrary topic of study and study it for a term like, that sounds so cool.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. I almost looked up to see how far that school is in. I think it's in Massachusetts from. Because we're very close to Massachusetts. It was very. I'd never heard of anything like that where there's no lessons, no rules, no anything. So very interesting.

[Becca Freeman]

I do think that in some future state, if money was no object, I would enjoy going back to school for random things.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, yeah? Yes, same.

[Becca Freeman]

So it's interesting to me, interesting again that this book ended at the start of COVID And I'm curious, and I think this might be different for us because we both wrote our first books during COVID But I'm curious, do you think Covid had a net positive or net negative effect on your personal attention?

[Olivia Mentor]

This is an interesting question because I think that Covid is really what, like, made me lean really hard into the influencer space and change my relationship with social media a lot and made it a lot more, like, intense. Because not only was it tied to, like, my emotional state, but it was also tied to how I made money and in, like, a real way. And I think partly that was because I was home all the time. We were by ourselves all the time. And I was posting all the time and shopping a lot too, I think, because I was just, like, at home and nothing to do. And although all of that was fun and I'm grateful for it because it gave me the space to start writing, I don't think it had a net positive effect on my tension or like, how addicted to it I became. Yeah, I don't think. I don't think it had no non positive. What about you?

[Becca Freeman]

I think it was net positive for me by like a hair's breadth. So I think that the act of writing a book requires more focus than anything I have ever done, maybe in my life. It is certainly the longest project I've ever worked on. Like, currently, the book I'm working on is something I've been working on for two years, and it requires just hours and sitting down and working on it in a way that I said earlier in the episode that my previous work was so much geared around emails and meetings. And so it's just a different type of work that requires much more focus than I've ever had to utilize for work. And it's such a big part of my life. So I think that that has been a very positive factor. But at the same time, I totally agree with you that I think my social media habits really went off the rails because there was like, there's nothing else to do. Like, why not be on your phone? Like, you're just passing the time. And also just the highly anxious state of watching news updates and needing to know what was going on, especially in the very early phases of COVID were so attention deteriorating. So I think that the book outweighs it just slightly. But I think overall it was like a very corruptive force for attention. And also it just led to so much less structure to so many people's lives who went into an office beforehand. And I was working for myself, so I only went into an office like one day a week before the pandemic for a client. But, yeah, it led to so much less structure where I feel like your phone could just creep into so many other areas of your life.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I agree. Can you believe it's been five years?

[Becca Freeman]

No. No. I also feel like it has changed how I think about my age. When the pandemic started, I was 33. And in some ways, I do feel frozen in time where, like, I don't think of myself. I'm now 38. I don't think of myself as 38. Like, those years almost feel lost.

[Olivia Mentor]

Hmm. I think a lot of people feel that way. And Jake has said something similar too. Like, it was a very, very strange time.

[Becca Freeman]

So I want to talk a little bit more about our personal habits and things that we've learned about ourselves through thinking about focus. But before we do, before we get fully away from the book, I want to talk about the controversy around this author. So, first of all, I was very surprised that we did not get voicemails or DMs about the controversy around him. The first time I read this book, I got inundated with DMs, people being like, this is a horrible person. Don't support him, basically. And so I want to lay out the facts and then we can talk about it. This author, in 2011, he was accused of plagiarizing quotes from sources. And so what that means is basically he was pretending that things that sources said in other interviews or in their own writings were said to him. And then he was also accused of exaggerating quotes, especially quotes that needed to be translated. And so the pieces which were called into question were from 2008, 2009. So he would have been like 29 or 30, just for context. And he initially denied wrongdoing, but then later publicly apologized and admitted fault. He was suspended from his job at the Independent for two months, and then he later left. And I can't tell if he was fired or if he quit. And then he'd won something called the Orwell Prize in 2008, based on journalism that was called into question by these same claims, and the prize was revoked. He offered to repay the prize money, which was £2,000, but instead they settled on making a donation to English Pen, which I think is just like some sort of literary organization. And it was supposed to be paid in installments upon him returning to work, but he never returned to that job, so it's unclear if it got repaid. And then also around this time in 2011, he was involved in a Wikipedia controversy where basically he was editing pages for both himself and journalists that he had beef with under a fake name and adding false and defamatory claims. So he's definitely a very controversial figure. I'm curious.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, he really.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm curious how you feel having heard this and what you knew about this before going into the book. And if you feel like this makes the book uncredible.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay, so I knew a rough idea of it, except for the editing Wikipedia pages of, like, his is Nemesis Nemesi Nemesis, which I find just so utterly ridiculous. And I was reading about it, and he, like, it wasn't like he called people homophobic and, like, you know, not good things. I mean, I think here's the thing with the book. The things that I really got out of it were much more, like I said, the things about his own experience, the things that are kind of more like creative, emotional, like bigger concepts not so much the research. Like, I can't recall a single real stat other than like that stat about how many, what percentage of Americans read at least a book a year? I mean, I think none of this is great and none of this, like, should be celebrated or just, you know, it's important. But ultimately, like, I still got out of the book. I think what I was going to get out of it. And I don't think this. While it makes me trust him less, it doesn't make me feel any differently about what I got out of it for me personally. Does that make sense?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

How do you feel about it?

[Becca Freeman]

I guess I personally feel like this was 14 years ago. He publicly apologized and had real consequences in terms of both his job and then more broadly his reputation in terms of, like, serve time in the court of public opinion. It does seem like he has learned from it. I mean, I think the answer isn't that like, we should hold things against people for forever. And the answer is he can never earn anything other than a menial wage because he can't do his craft of writing anymore. Like, I don't think that that's realistic. And I mean, I think a lot of people are still hanging onto it. So it seems like he's still. And especially in the uk, I think, which is where he's from. I think he's a fairly controversial figure. And so, yeah, like, I think he's served time for this. I noticed specifically he went to great lengths to prove that he did not do this for this book. And I assume he's done this in other books. He specifically included all of the raw interview footage with sources on his website for this book to be like, these are the quotes from it. So if you wanna look into this. So, yeah, I mean, I think with any book you have to go into it with healthy skepticism of like, is this real? But I do think I trust the information in it. And I value the fact that he has laid this out in a way that for my brain, that usually is resistant to consuming nonfiction, I found really digestible. Like, I think he's done a good job. Do I wish he didn't have this past? Sure. But it seems as though he's learned from it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. One thing I will say is that I would be very interested to see if this happened to a woman journalist, if she was able to still have a career like he has had afterwards. That's one thing I. I do wonder. But. But, yeah, I am largely of the same mind there.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. So to wrap it up Almost. I have two more things I want to talk about. This episode's just gonna be long and I'm gonna accept it. Is that okay with you?

[Olivia Mentor]

That's okay. Yeah. Fine with me. I love talking about this.

[Becca Freeman]

So I know we've both, outside of this book, talked a lot about phone habits in the past year. And I'm curious because you've done a lot and you've said you've taken your relationship with social media from a 2 to an 8. Like, what are the mediations that you have found most helpful for yourself and then any other focus tips outside of phone stuff?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I mean, thanks to Leslie and her habit of not keeping Instagram on her phone, I basically do that and I just download it once or twice a day for like five to 15 minutes maybe. And I don't keep it on my phone before lunch and I don't keep it on after dinner. So usually I just spend like those five to 15 minutes after lunch and after dinner while Jake is doing dishes, basically looking, and then I delete it and then it's not there. So it's not there when I wake up, it's not there when I get in bed, which are two of my kind of prime scrolling times. I don't know about you, but those in bed, I'm like, oh, I can't leave. I'll just be here. So, so that has, like, literally changed my life for the better in every possible way. I also don't access it on my desktop at all. Like, which I find good. I don't access Facebook on my desktop. I only download Facebook to do bad on paper stuff as well. And it's just like, I, I, I love it when I go on, I focus on, like responding to DMs, engaging with content, posting stuff like actual like connection stuff for work, stuff that feels important to me or fun or whatever. And then I just leave. And it's truly changed my life. Like, I feel so much happier, but I don't feel like I'm like gone either, you know? So, like, going forward, I think I really want to think about why I feel compelled to pick up the phone and like, the emotional side of it. Because usually when I find myself thinking like, oh, I want to download Instagram right now and scroll, usually it's because I'm feeling bad about something and I want like the dopamine and like the reassurance that I'm okay and people like me. And that is a very unhealthy place to be. And so it forces me instead of Getting that dopamine or numbing myself, it forces me to actually sit with those uncomfortable feelings and understand why I'm not feeling great and address that. And so that's the part of it I really want to continue to exploring and to work on. In general, I want to be more focused on my life than I am with other people's. And I think that cutting back on social media is a big part of that. So I feel good about where I'm at. I don't feel like I need to make any drastic changes. But just thinking about it on a deeper level is important to me. Yeah, but what about you?

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I think it's kind of interesting because after I read this book the first time, I wrote a newsletter and I put a bunch of goals out there, and some of them I've kept and some of them I haven't, but I feel like I have a much better idea of what works. So the first goal that I said was to keep my phone away from my desk and to close the messages app on my computer. And I think this one has been huge. I try not to bring my phone into my office, or if I do, there's a windowsill kind of like out of arm's reach, where I keep my phone if I'm, like, expecting a call or I need to keep an eye on something. And not having it in arm's reach, I think has been huge. That, like, when I hit a roadblock, I don't immediately grab for my phone. And then closing the messages app on my computer. I'll be honest, I don't do this. But what I have done is I've taken away the new message bubble so I can't see when I have new messages. Because I do text frequently from my computer, I find it easier, especially with, like, rapid back and forth or long texts and not knowing when I'm getting texts because I'm on a bunch of group chats that do a lot of volume has been huge for my focus.

[Olivia Mentor]

This is actually really interesting because I didn't have this feature until I got my new laptop, and it is extremely distracting.

[Becca Freeman]

Take away the bubbles. Take away the notifications, like the banner notifications.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do this for sure.

[Becca Freeman]

The second thing I said I wanted to do was charge my phone outside of my bedroom. And I haven't done this, namely because I use my phone as my alarm clock. And I specifically use the sleep tracking app that I really like called Sleep Cycle. And so, like, I think the solution would be that I would get an aura ring, which is like 500 bucks. I don't really want to spend that money on it. And you know, getting like a actual physical alarm clock, I don't know. I know I should do this, but I haven't, I haven't figured this one out yet.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's hard.

[Becca Freeman]

The third one I. Oh, this has also been huge. And this is your inspiration, Muting people on Instagram stories. I have probably, I don't know, 40 or 50 people unmuted. And it's people who I see in my day to day life and, or anyone I'm just really interested in at the moment. But I try to have most people muted and it has been shocking to me. This has been the number one thing that's changed my Instagram habits, I think. And it is shocking to me how invested in people's lives I had become. That I do not know.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, yeah. Yes. This always shocks me. It's like to reflect on. Yes, I agree.

[Becca Freeman]

And again, like, I, I don't have them muted on the grid. And I think if anything huge happens in your life, you're gonna post it on the grid. You know, if you get a book deal, if you have a baby, if you get married, if anything big, you're gonna post on your grid. And so I still get the major things in people's lives, but I don't get the day to day. Here's what I bought at the grocery store. Like just minutia that I was so invested in.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I'm glad that's really worked for you.

[Becca Freeman]

It's been huge. And I, I remember feeling kind of judgmental when you brought it up of like being offended. And then when I did it for myself, I was like, yeah, this is huge. And then the last one I said, which I've really failed at, is trying not to double screen. So like when I'm watching tv, not being on my phone, and I've done a poor job of this, but I really like Caroline Chambers, who Out of the Pod came on for one of our reading episodes. She writes a newsletter called what to cook when you don't feel like cooking. She had a New Year's resolution to treat her phone more like a landline. So you go to it, not it comes to you. And I don't think I've been perfect about this, but I have been trying to do this more. And I do think that this is a huge mindset shift too, where it's like, you need to Google something. Get up. You wanna look At Instagram. Get up. Like making it harder.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. I've been like, so enjoying the experience of watching a movie without also scrolling at the same time, like. Cause I really don't have any reason to be on my phone like at night.

[Becca Freeman]

It's just compulsive.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, exactly. And it's like, oh, I'm so much more invested. I'm noticing things I wouldn't have otherwise. It's so much more pleasurable. But yeah, I love this one. I love thinking about it that way. Like a landline.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. We also have a listener voicemail with a tip.

[C]

Hi, Bethany and Olivia, Megan from Chicago here. I am a big bad on paper fan. I truly love all of your episodes. Just such a good mishmash of culture and books and what is going on in each of your lives. So just wanted to say thank you for continuing to create such a great podcast. It is such a bright spot in my week every week. And I also wanted to share. I know I think one or both of you have a goal to get your screen time at or under like three or four hours per day this year. And I also have that goal. I just had a baby, she's seven months old. And I'll tell you, there's nothing like having a kid to make you more cognizant than ever of how much you're on your phone and how useless, you know, that time spent on your phone usually is. Just really want to continue to be present in the moment and frankly, spend more time reading. So I tried this new app, Opal. I've tried other app blocking apps before to get my screen time down, but I'm actually really impressed with this one in the interface. It has so much data, which I also love. You do have to pay for it. I think it's $99 a year. But honestly, whatever can help me get that time back and just have a health relationship with my phone. I think it's worth it. So sorry this is so long, but thank you again. Hope you guys have a great day.

[Becca Freeman]

Bye. Okay, so this is interesting. I'd not heard of this app, have you?

[Olivia Mentor]

I have, yes.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, you have? I did some research and it does seem like a lot of the features in it. Apple also has native features for. But the thing that is compelling to me is that it gives you historical screen time stats and it really bugs me. And it probably is intentional that Apple doesn't give you historical screen time stats, like past a few weeks. Like you can only scroll back like, I don't know, like three weeks or something.

[Olivia Mentor]

Hate the screen time counter because I feel like it's not actually accurate. Like if I'm driving and using maps, I don't want my screen time to be five and a half hours when it's really, like it really bothers me or like there's certain things I really don't, even though they are screen to me. Like if I'm watching a show on my phone, that feels very different to me than scrolling for two hours. And so I've tried to stop looking at my screen time as a marker of anything and try more to figure out do I feel like I was doing that compulsively or not. But maybe that's just a me thing. It would be interesting to see if it goes down and all of that.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Okay, last question. Do you have any suggestions for related reading or listening to this topic?

[Olivia Mentor]

I mean, I think there's a lot of like chatter on substack about spending less time on social media, which I always find kind of funny because like Notes is a purely social media experience. Like I literally had to delete the app from my phone because I was just scrolling notes. There's one I follow called like Break Free from the Internet, which I do access via the Internet on Substack, so make of that what you will, but I feel like there's a lot of stuff on Substack beyond that as well. Did you have anything that came to mind?

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I mean, as a self plug, I think listening to the Leslie Stevens episode that we did, if you haven't already, and she has a reading list that she recommends in that episode, we can link the episode in the show notes Carly Fortune. When she came on and she did three things with us, she recommended a podcast episode of the Search Engine podcast called Is there a Sane Way to Use the Internet? Which I found incredibly interesting. So if you liked the technology social media chapter, definitely listen to that. And then as I was reading this, I read this newsletter. The newsletter is called Embedded by Kate Lindsay. And it really struck me. And the concept of the newsletter was about how we've gotten uncomfortable with not being entertained. And I'm just gonna read a quote from this that like really knocked me on my butt. So she says, boredom is when you do the dishes, run errands you've been putting off, respond to the text you've left unread. Boredom is when you bring a book to read on the subway or make small talk with the person in front of you in line about how slow the pharmacy is. Boredom is when you do the things that make you feel like you have your life under control. Not being bored is why you always feel busy. Why you keep, quote, not having the time to take a package to the post office or work on your novel. You do have the time. You just spend it on your phone. By refusing to ever let your brain rest, you are choosing to watch other people's lives through a screen at the expense of your own.

[Olivia Mentor]

Mic drop that last sentence, hit home for me. That's it.

[Becca Freeman]

We'll. We'll link the full newsletter in the show notes if you wanna read it. It's. It's really fantastic. But I do, I. I feel this in myself that I've grown uncomfortable with being bored. And I use my phone as a crutch and then it like, is to my own detriment.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, when you were scrolling or like on your phone constantly. I know we're going so long, but I just feel very strongly about this. Like, I just. I feel like you are never just sitting with yourself in whatever you're in, in that moment. Like you are never purely like at home with yourself. You're never analyzing how you're feeling, like you're always somewhere else. And I saw how it like, changed me as a person. So anyway, I. I love this. I'm gonna read the whole post. Kate Lindsay is a very talented journalist by the way. And like that whole newsletter is excellent. Highly recomm. Recommend subscribing.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Okay. Let's get out of this book into some n matter. If anyone is still with us. Maybe we're just talking into the void.

[Olivia Mentor]

What are you obsessed with?

[Becca Freeman]

So I feel like it's an unspoken rule that I cannot say a book because I would say Onyx Storm if I could. Okay. So I'm obsessed with these Peter Thomas Roth eye patches. So it's the one with the black lid and it's called the Firm Rx Collagen Hydrogel Face and Eye Patches. And it comes with 90 in a container and the container is $65, so. And you have to use two, so, you know.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay.

[Becca Freeman]

But I feel like for the value, it's pretty good. And basically I'm really self conscious about my under eyes and my eye bags.

[Olivia Mentor]

Really? I've never noticed this about you.

[Becca Freeman]

I feel like, especially when I smile, I get like a lot of eye baggage. And I do feel like this, you know, it's temporary, it lasts a day, but it does firm up your under eye area in a way that I find noticeable. And I specifically use these a lot if I'm Going to be somewhere without makeup. So, like, if I'm going to go play pickleball, I'll put them on. And I do feel like I notice a difference in how my face looks without makeup.

[Olivia Mentor]

Mm. I love an eye patch.

[Becca Freeman]

I really like these. And I don't know how long you're supposed to leave them on, but I kind of leave them on indefinitely until they start to bother me. So, like, it's like 20 to 30 minutes. I'm not using it as suggestion extra. Yeah. What are you obsessed with? Nice.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm obsessed with another book podcast. Although it's a very different vibe than ours, so I don't feel like it's in direct competition, but either way I want to shout them out. So it's called the Bookcase podcast with Charlie Gibson, and I think his daughter's name is Kate Gibson. Have you heard of this?

[Becca Freeman]

No. I thought based on what you wrote, I thought it was gonna be Julie Andrews book podcast, but no.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, does she have a book podcast?

[Becca Freeman]

She did. I don't know if it's ongoing or if they just did a season, but yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Interesting. Well, Charlie Gibson, I guess was like a well known newscaster news anchor. And you can tell because his voice is just so soothing to listen to. It's this very like, cozy podcast where they both read a book, Father and Daughter, which is kind of. And they talk about it and they interview authors and then they also interview bookstore owners. At the end of some episodes, they highlight a different bookstore, some apps. Anyway, it's very cozy. The episodes are all like, I would say 30 to 40 minutes long. And they're both like, great interviewers. They ask such interesting questions. There's an episode with Kathryn Newman for Sandwich, which is just great because the daughter and the father had different takes on the book. And it was just really interesting to hear. And I just, I really recommend it if you love author interviews. It's really, really, really nice and very relaxing. There's like a jazz song playing in the background sometimes. It's just. I've loved it this week.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, I'll have to check it out. All right, what about books?

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay, so I finished this one. I also read start to finish the book Isola by Allegra Goodman. I read it in literally one sitting. I started it at like 1:30pm I finished it at 9pm I got up to and have dinner and that's it. It's like 400 pages long. I just sat there in front of the fire. Per how the review I read of it suggested I read It. And it was one of the most like, immersive reading experiences I have had in a long time. I loved it so much. This is historical fiction. It's about a woman who is marooned on an island with her sort of like lady in waiting and her lover and how they survive. It's much more of a survival story than a love story, but it is just. I'm describing it as ever after meets Robinson Crusoe with a little bit of Titanic.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay. And so this is the one, when we talked about it in our book preview episode, that it was like marooned on an island. Also polar bears. Is there a speculative element to it?

[Olivia Mentor]

No, it's. The island is. It doesn't say directly. I believe it's in Newfoundland. So it's in Canada.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's actually a true. It's based on a true story. So there's some other details there about, like there are multiple versions of the story, which is true. It's kind of interesting. I loved this. Like, I typically don't read historical fiction, but I loved it. I loved it. I was there on the island with them. I was there with them in the polar bears. And then I also read Schroeder by Amity Gage. Again, you're on a bender.

[Becca Freeman]

I love this. I love when you find an author who has a back catalog and I did this with Katherine Sinner and you just like, you get to dive in.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. It's a delight. This is about. It's a first person narrative of a father who you learn from the very beginning has kidnapped his daughter in like a custody disagreement. And it's all about their sort of run from the law. And obviously, you know, from the beginning, like, he's done a very bad thing, but by the end, you really feel for him in some ways, which I know sounds like, ugh, I don't want to read that. But it is a very interesting character study. I don't think I loved it as much as Seawife and Heartwood, but it is an excellent book. I still really, really, really loved it.

[Becca Freeman]

So.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. And I read a bunch of other things, like 70% to test for February book club, which we'll talk about in a moment. But first, let's hear what you read. Including dragons.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, my God. I finished Beg, Borrow or Steal by Sarah Adams, which I was reading last week. And that's the third book in the Rome, Kentucky series. Like, very cute, small town romance. Loved this. I love this author. So told you last week that I was loving it. Halfway through stuck the landing. The Next book I read was One Golden Summer by Carly Fortune. And this comes out May 6th. And this is a sister book, a cousin book maybe to her debut novel every Summer after. So this is the brother from that book, Charlie's story. It's single timeline told in the present day. It's not from his point of view, it's from the point of view of his love interest, who is this woman named Alice, who is a professional photographer and goes to the lake at Barry's Bay to help her grandmother recoup after a surgery and ends up meeting Charlie at the lake. And this book is so good, it made my romance reader heart like, tingle. It is so, so, so good. Oh, my God. I think people are going to lose their minds over this when it comes out.

[Olivia Mentor]

Listeners are gonna be very jealous of this arc.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, my God. I. It was so good. I also found it really compulsive. Like on Friday night I went out and I came home at 11pm and I felt the need to read for two hours. I was like, I need to read more of this.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, that's such a nice feeling.

[Becca Freeman]

I loved this. And then of course, I read Onyx Storm by Rebecca Yarros, which is the third book in the Fourth Wing series. And I was feeling kind of mid about this series after Iron Flame. I felt like Iron Flame was too long. I thought it was confusing at parts and I didn't like it as much as Fourth Wing. And I was kind of on the fence going into this book where I was like, this is make or break. If I'll continue the series, I'm absolutely continuing. It was so good. I felt like this was incredible. It ends on a crazy cliffhanger, as one would expect with this type of series that I cannot wait to see what happens in the next book. Loved this. I won't say anything else because I know people are really sensitive about spoilers.

[Olivia Mentor]

But loved Is this a book a year situation? How many books are in this and when are they coming out? Are they set for the next decade?

[Becca Freeman]

So I think it's right now supposed to be five books. There was six months between the first and the second book, and then there was like 14 months between the second and third book. I read an interview with her in Elle magazine saying she was taking a break after this book, but it's unclear to me if she's taking a break after the publication of this book, which is kind of how it made it sound. In which case I feel like the next book might already be written because of just how long publishing schedules take or if she was taking a break after writing this book and now is potentially getting back to writing. So I don't know if book four has a. I'm curious. I feel like there's probably people who are like much more in tune with her social media updates who might be able to tell us in the Facebook group or the Geneva group. But yeah, we'll see.

[Olivia Mentor]

Interesting. Well, I'm glad it was so good.

[Becca Freeman]

It was so good. But tell us, what are we reading in February for book club? I don't know.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay. I did a lot of work. I probably screened like 10 books and read them to 80% or completion for this.

[Becca Freeman]

I appreciate. I know this is one of your goals this year, but I feel very Acts of Service, which is my love language.

[Olivia Mentor]

I really was determined to find a book that I was head over heels for and I thought other people would like. So I have chosen Isola by Allegra Goodman. It comes out February 4th. So right at the beginning of February, like I said, this is historical fiction about a young woman who by very sort of dire circumstances ends up on a ship to the new world, to Canada from France, and she falls in love with someone on the ship and they end up marooned on an island in Canada in the Canadian wilderness. It's more of a survival story than it is romance. I don't know if it will be for everyone. I don't know if you'll like it, Becca, but I just enjoyed every second of this book. I felt like I was transported to a different world. It is. The descriptions of the scenery are so beautiful. Like I said, there's a connection to a real story. We've never read a book from this time period before. We also don't do a lot of historical fiction, so I hope it's like something different, something new, something immersive. Curl up under your blankets on a cold February night and just go on this journey.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm very excited.

[Olivia Mentor]

And then watch ever after.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm very excited. I'm always excited to try something that is not our book club norm. So let's go.

[Olivia Mentor]

Let's go. I think it'll leave us with lots to talk about for sure.

[Becca Freeman]

Great. Well, speaking of lots to talk about, if you want to talk to us about stolen focus and phone habits, focus. Anything we've discussed in this episode, you can always join us in the Facebook group or in the Geneva group to chat. You can follow us on Instagram addonpaper podcast. I'm on Instagram ecamfreeman. My newsletter is @beccafreeman.substack.com I'm oliviamentor on all the places. See you next week.