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- [00:18]
A
Hi, everyone, and welcome to Baton Paper Podcast. I'm Olivia, Mentor.
- [00:22]
B
And I'm Becca Freeman.
- [00:23]
A
And today is our last book Club episode of 2025, which is very hard to believe, but we are discussing, I think, a book that most people we know have read or will be reading in the next couple months.
- [00:35]
B
Yeah, I've been seeing this book everywhere, so it feels very timely. And it also has a very nice holiday tie in, even though there's nothing about the book that's holiday centric, because so much of it deals with the theme of family. So I think it's a perfect time for it. But before we get into talking about the book, I wanna talk about highs and lows. Tell me what your high is.
- [01:00]
A
I once again, have two highs, which I recognize is a little annoying, but I have two high highs.
- [01:06]
B
And I don't think you ever have to apologize for having multiple things that are exciting going on. I'm thrilled.
- [01:12]
A
Thanks. Well, I wanted to mention them both. And the first one is I met one of my best friend's new baby, and we drove to meet her and her partner and the baby. And I'm not around babies that much, so I'm a little bit uncomfortable with them. But she kind of just thrust the child into my arms, which is, I think, the way to do it. And weirdly, it gave me a sense of confidence with the baby. So I was, like, holding him, and he was so cute and cuddly, and it was just so nice to see her and her partner just so happy and, like, it was just really nice.
- [01:49]
B
It's so wild to see friends who you have known for a very long time becoming parents and acting as parents and seeing that identity shift or seeing that role shift in real time. It's like. It's really cool.
- [02:03]
A
It is. It's strange, too. Like, I kept just thinking, wow, how weird that this person that I lived with when I was 18 years old is, like, raising a child. But they're both just so clearly cut out to be parents and they're doing such a wonderful job. So it was really. It was just really beautiful to see. And then my other high is that I went into the city yesterday, and for the very first time, I met my editor in person, even though we've been working together for, I guess, more than a year at this point. And we had lunch with my agent, I went to the little brown offices and I met the whole team, like, marketing, publicity. And it was really nice to just like, visualize a physical, real team behind this book that I care About a lot. And like, I could tell they care. And that's such a nice feeling when you're just so alone with the work for so long. And it was just cool. It was just like a dream. New York City day. You know, I was like, this is my life. I'm an author and I'm going into the city to have lunch at Rockefeller Plaza and then we go into the office and it's fancy and there are books everywhere and this is where the magic happens. And you know, it was just really magical.
- [03:20]
B
That's wonderful. That truly is very early Aughts rom com coded.
- [03:25]
A
It was a lot of running around, but I kept wanting to just have like an hour where I was just walking and listening to like Dreams by the Cranberries or something. Anyway, it was really nice and I'm. I feel really lucky to have the team that I have. So, yeah, just a good week mostly.
- [03:43]
B
Oh, I'm so glad.
- [03:45]
A
What's your high?
- [03:46]
B
I also have two highs. So my first high is that I am working on the final draft of this book and it feels so good. Every time I've been working on it before, my mentality has been so focused on what is wrong with it or what needs to be fixed. And at this point, so, so close to the end, I'm just getting to enjoy and appreciate it and I feel like I have the time I need. It's not too crunched and I'm just feeling so good and I'm feeling really proud of myself and how far this book has come and how much work I've put into it and the fact that it's going to come out hopefully next fall and people will be reading it. So I'm kind of just luxuriating in the process a little bit.
- [04:32]
A
As you should. Yes. This time next year, people will be reading it. That's so thrilling.
- [04:37]
B
I hope so. And then my second high is that yesterday I went to a taping of the Late Night show with Stephen Colbert. I wanted to get tickets before it goes off the air. And I had not realized in my 13 years living in New York how relatively easy and also free it is to request tickets to the late night shows. And so I went and it was just a very cool special experience to see it being taped. But Elizabeth Warren was the guest. And I cannot tell you how soothing it was to see a person, an elected official, in person saying, this is fucked up. Everything that is happening is wrong and fucked up. And I am personally working to fix it. You know, it's not as if she was presenting a plan or something like that, but she was talking about the Epstein files. She was talking about being on the banking committee and her desire to call in Epstein's bankers from JP Morgan and to, like, follow the money trail and just talking about affordability, talking about the government shutdown. And I almost felt weepy seeing a educated, articulate, informed person in the flesh being like, yes, this is wrong. I am fighting to fix this.
- [06:02]
A
I bet. Yeah. So good to, like, feel inspired for once.
- [06:06]
B
Yes. She was fantastic. I was so impressed by her.
- [06:11]
A
I'm so glad. She's a very cool woman.
- [06:14]
B
Yeah, it was a very cool experience on all fronts, but I was especially thrilled that she was our guest.
- [06:22]
A
When is his last show?
- [06:23]
B
It's next spring. So he did a little audience Q and A, and somebody asked him what was next for him, and he kind of punted the question, but he basically just said, oh, we still have 77 shows left. So right now I'm just focusing on that. But I hadn't thought of it in those terms. When you're doing four or five shows a week and, you know, he still has half a year on his contract. I was like, oh, yeah, that is a lot of shows.
- [06:48]
A
That's a lot.
- [06:49]
B
Yeah.
- [06:49]
A
Well, what's your low?
- [06:50]
B
My low is not that serious, but personally bad. I am in nail jail officially, after Friendsgiving, which I hosted last weekend, which was so fun. It could have been another high, but I talked about that last week, so I didn't want to repeat myself. I don't know. I was feeling stressed. I was feeling overwhelmed about, I don't know. And I picked off my gel manicure, which I feel like is a top five. There's something so satisfying about it to me in a way that I realize I'm wrecking my nails. So I ripped off my manicure, and then I bit my nails, which I haven't done in a really long time. And now my nails are bendy, weak little nubs and look so ugly. And on the one hand, I'm like, why did I do that? And then the other hand, I'm like, yeah, that's the. This stuff. But I'm in nail jail right now.
- [07:44]
A
Are you gonna fix them soon?
- [07:46]
B
I think I'm gonna let them breathe a little. I've had gel polish on my hands for, I think, like, most or all of this year, so I might just kind of give it a couple months and let them be nude and let them grow out.
- [08:03]
A
The part that I have wrecked, that's healthy. I can't sit with the nakedness of the nails. Once you ruin them, like, it just makes me want to crawl out of my own skin. I can't deal with it. So then I'm like, more chemicals on my nails. Please put the poisonous dust back on for the anc.
- [08:20]
B
Or I can give myself a pretty decent at home manicure. So I might. I might get into that for a little while.
- [08:27]
A
Okay. It's a good idea. Save some money.
- [08:29]
B
Yeah. What is your low?
- [08:31]
A
This has been a really good week, but at the beginning of the week, I just had a. A really low couple of days, mental health wise. And it was really triggered by nothing. Thanks. Yeah, it was one of those things where, like, I think I felt like I was reacting to something, but really, I think it was just an accumulation of a really busy month and a lot of deadlines or like, one big deadline, really, with book three stuff. And just a lot of uncertainty with what's gonna happen with little one and what's gonna happen with this other book. And also just feeling really insecure about how I look and, like, everything, you know, when everything just piles up and you have that moment where it's like, everything is wrong. I have to fix everything about myself. And I was just very unstable for a while, like a day or so. And that's very unlikely, but I was able to bounce back, which is great. I had therapy and I actually went and got my nails done because one of them chipped, and I was like, I cannot deal with this. I was like, I cannot do it.
- [09:33]
B
This bridge too far.
- [09:34]
A
I was like, this will set me off even further. Yeah. Yeah.
- [09:38]
B
I'm so sorry that you weren't feeling great. I definitely know. And it's almost more frustrating when you can't point to a culprit, or at least it is for me, where you're like, nothing happened. Why do I feel like this? Everything's going well.
- [09:55]
A
Yeah.
- [09:55]
B
And sometimes I then use that to beat myself up too, so. I totally hear you, but I'm glad you had therapy scheduled in and were able to use that as an outlet.
- [10:04]
A
Yes. And everything is, like, weirdly connected too, you know, it's like sometimes I feel like I'm feeling insecure about how I look. And actually it's connected to something much deeper about, like, work. And if I feel like I'm doing poorly in writing in some sense, then I feel like I'm failing there. And then it connects to this other thing and it just all builds and builds, but I'm feeling a lot better. I have a lighter few weeks. The holidays are coming up, so yeah, all is well. Well, let's talk about this book and we will start with the summary and then we'll take an ad break and then we'll get into it.
- [10:40]
B
Please lead the way.
- [10:42]
A
So the Correspondent by Virginia Evans follows main character Sybil Van Antwerp, who is a woman in her 70s who documents her life through a prolific letter writing habit, hobby. And so the entire novel is told through her correspondences to friends, family, neighbors, former colleagues, famous authors. But as Sybil's eyesight starts to fail, she reflects more on her life's work and her choices and ultimately this huge loss that kind of colored every relationship in her entire life.
- [11:18]
B
Well, let's take an ad break and then let's get into our discussion about this book.
- [11:26]
A
This episode is sponsored by Cozy Earth. I think we all have someone or multiple someones in our life who are very, very hard to shop for. And for me, Jake is one of those people because he only asks for practical items for the holidays, which is smart for him but extremely boring for me. And as we all know, gift giving is really about the person giving the gifts. I'm kidding. But in all seriousness, one of the gifts that I have gotten Jake that he has used a ton and has been both practical and enjoyable to give is his Cozy Earth clothing. The loungewear, the pajamas, the sweatpants. He is basically always wearing something from Cozy Earth on any given day and I like knowing that I gave that to him. And by the way, Cozy Earth didn't send me any of those items. I paid for them all myself and I gave them to him and he loves them and so. So it really feels like a win.
- [12:18]
B
Cozy Earth has so many amazing gifts for friends and family on your list this season. The Bubble Cuddle blanket would be an amazing gift. It's not just a run of the mill boring blanket. It's chic looking, it's soft, but most of all it is so, so cozy and full transparency. When I wrote this ad last night, I was laying under it because that is how I spend most of my leisure time.
- [12:44]
A
Give the gift of comfort that lasts beyond the holidays. And this weekend only, from Thanksgiving Day through Cyber Monday. Get 40% off@cozyearth.com with code BOP. It's the best deal of the year. And if you get a post purchase survey, be sure to mention you heard about Cozy Earth right here. Once again, that's code BOP. Cozyearth.com. Well Becca, let's get into this book, which I think this conversation will be more Interesting because you read it, I would say, before it became so insanely popular. And I want to hear about what that experience was like. I know you loved it, but did you have any inkling that it would become one of the books of the year? Yeah.
- [13:30]
B
So I first read the book back in August because on my newsletter I was talking a lot about the book of the summer. And there were a bunch of comments kind of to the tune of, hey, I know this isn't the book of the summer, but something's happening with this book. The correspondent and one of the people I heard it from was Emily Sommer, who is a bookseller at East City books in Washington, D.C. and she described it as kind of this, like, word of mouth sensation where she said, everyone who reads it tells four people about. And then they read it and tell four people about it. It just had a lot of word of mouth power to it. And I found that really intriguing. And it wasn't just her. I heard it come up multiple times and everyone who read it saying, I immediately recommended it to this person in my life. And so I was really curious about the book. And I think I was prepared to be underwhelmed because the pitch for it feels like it's going to be a very dry character study. You, from the opening pages, you understand this woman's life to be quite small and quite lonely. And throughout the book, her life opens up so much, which I think is part of what's so special about this book. Like, there's an underlying message of you're never too old to change. Or, oh, there's this quote I wrote down that Theodore says at one point in one of his letters where he says, I had begun to think that my life had run out of surprises. And I think that to me, that's kind of like the overall message and, like, delight of this book. And so, yeah, there's something really special about it. And I will say that this time I listened to it instead of reading it. And the audiobook narration is sensational. Oh, my gosh. It's a full cast for each of the different letter writers. And I hadn't really thought of this, but because it's all letters, it all reads almost as dialogue. It's basically all spoken pieces without, you know, narration bits that a regular book would have. And so the emotion in the performances was so wonderful, too, in a way that sometimes you don't necessarily get in an audiobook, but. Oh, yeah. I don't know what drew you to this book initially.
- [16:07]
A
Well, I mean, I heard you say great things. I kept seeing it pop up and, you know, I was like, I'll give it a try. As I was reading it though, I thought, oh, this would be so good on audio. So good. It's just very digestible. Like, it's really easy to fly through. And the letters, because they're all relatively short, they read like very short chapters, I think, which is, you know, makes a very propulsive book. But I think it's just, it's one of those books where it's good. It's like, obviously it's a great book, but I think part of the reason it gets recommended so often is it is truly like universally appealing. You know, there's nothing like deeply offensive. There's nothing edgy, there's nothing, you know, and I think that's really hard to do and write a book that feels really singular with a lot of heart, and somehow this manages to pull that off. So hats off to the author. But yeah, I really enjoyed it.
- [17:03]
B
I have a question for you about that universalness of the book. So I talked on my Instagram story this week about how much I was enjoying the audiobook and somebody DMed me and said that they were going on a road trip for Thanksgiving with their husband and they wondered if their husband would like it. And I was not sure. Do you think Jake would like this or do you think this is a book that feels more appealing to women in nature, or do you think that it truly does have a universalness?
- [17:35]
A
That's a good question. I think he would be entertained by it. Yeah. I don't know if he would be drawn to it immediately, like maybe a woman would. But like I said, I think it's just the way it is formatted makes it so easy to consume and so easy to stay engaged. Like, I think I read it in close to one sitting or something like that because it was just so easy to absolutely breeze through. I don't know. What do you think about that?
- [18:02]
B
I don't know. I wasn't sure how to answer and I think maybe it depends on person to person. So I said maybe, but I said that my two recommendations for kind of crowd pleaser road trip audiobooks are always Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Project Hail Mary. So I gave those recommendations too, which I feel like are potentially more universally husband friendly.
- [18:28]
A
I think it does lean probably more towards a female audience. Like for me, when I think of the Correspondent, I think of a book club of women in their 60s.
- [18:37]
B
Yeah, but not even I thought something that was so special about this book was, you know, to skip ahead a bit. My favorite plotline was the mother daughter plotline, which really only kind of heats up in the second half. And I think that it's not a relationship that you often see portrayed from the mother's side in other forms of media, like certainly TV or movies. I would say that's pretty rare. But, you know, I feel like there's kind of a large cultural narrative about people cutting contact with their families or, you know, being in therapy because of difficult family members, and you don't often see the other person's side of that. So I think it is really interesting for a daughter too, and for book clubs of people Fiona's age who might be dealing with this situation from her end. So I don't know. I definitely hear what you're saying about a book club of six year olds, but I think a book club of people my age or possibly even younger would find something in this book too.
- [19:41]
A
Yeah, absolutely. I agree. I mean, there's a reason that we both loved it and that we chose it for book club for sure. I just think that, like, if you're able to hit that demographic, it spreads far and wide because I think there are a lot of books that would appeal to that group that would also appeal to us, but there are a lot of groups that. Books that appeal to us that really don't appeal to that group at all. Like. Like it's harder to sell like a book like Shark Heart to people who are more like a little more conservative. I don't mean politically, but just like a little more traditional. But anyway, I just think that maybe like, that's where it grew, you know, like book club to book club. And then it kind of came to everyone else in a really beautiful way.
- [20:23]
B
Talking about the format, though, which she certainly didn't invent a novel in letters, but it does seem rare. Had you read any epistolary novels before? And you better believe I Googled before we got on this podcast how to pronounce that word, because it's a word that I've seen written but rarely said, and I was not confident about how to pronounce it.
- [20:45]
A
I. I think that's right. Well, you looked it up. Of course it's right.
- [20:48]
B
I Google pronunciation, looked it up right before this.
- [20:52]
A
Not that I can recall. I'm sure I have at some point. But there's nothing about it that makes me think of a certain book I read or that makes me think, yeah, that's a book. I kind of a format of a book. I would love, you know, but like I said, I think it really mimicked the feeling of short chapters which just work in terms of getting you to keep moving through the book. Yeah. What about you?
- [21:13]
B
I've read two before that I can think of, although I read them both so long ago that I don't recall the finer details. But I read the Department of Speculation by Jenny Offhill, which came out in 2014, and I think according to my Goodreads, I read it in 2016 and that is about a marriage and it's letters between a husband and wife. And I remember enjoying that book. I don't remember a single plot point of it and I remember the feeling of it reading very quickly as well. And then another one is Taylor Jenkins. Reid has, I think it's an audio exclusive called Evidence of the Affair that is, if not all, mostly written in letters. And I listened to that too.
- [22:00]
A
Did you have an experience with those where you were like, yeah, I'd love to read more books like this. Or not really.
- [22:05]
B
Well, I certainly didn't seek them out, so I don't think so. But I enjoyed it and I agree with you about the quickness of it. It lends a speed to the reading experience and you know, it also strips out a lot of the setting details, a lot of the scene setting, which I enjoy, but it just strips a lot of that out. So it just goes much faster.
- [22:27]
A
Yes, definitely. Which is funny cause you wouldn't think of it as like plot driven, but it manages to be that.
- [22:34]
B
When I listened to this book this week as a refresher, I was shocked how much plot was in it. Like things I'd forgotten about. Even just since August. I was like, oh yeah, I forgot about this plotline. Oh yeah, this plotline too. It is jam packed with plot.
- [22:49]
A
Yeah, there's a lot going on for me. I think what really makes it though is that Sybil is such a fully realized, very unique and deeply flawed but likable still character. What did you think of her? Were you drawn to her right away as well?
- [23:05]
B
Well, no, I. I found her off putting at first, but I think she is this archetype of older woman, that it's not a Karen, but it's just this particular offering her opinion on everything type of older woman where if, even if you don't have one in your family, you know, a woman like this, you've interacted with a woman like this. And so I found it really magnetic to read her perspective. But I didn't like her at first. I can say that much for sure. Like, it was a warming process between us. As I read the book, I was so struck by the first couple of letters that she writes to strangers. Because, you know, when you're reading the book, you don't know her family at the beginning. So like, I don't know, maybe they're all monsters. Maybe that's why she has a bad relationship with them. Like, I didn't have the information to draw a conclusion. But one of the first in the book as she writes this letter to Ann Patchett. And it is intending to be a lovely letter, but some of the things she says in it are just so. You're like, my eyes are rolling into the back of my head of, you know, she makes an aside comment about how Anne didn't write back to her letter, but that's okay. And like, I think I can't remember if it's in this one or if it's in a letter to a different author where she says, everyone really liked this book. I liked your last one better. It's just, oh, she's so difficult. Where it was like her universe is very self centered, you know.
- [24:38]
A
Yeah, I thought it was really well done how. I mean, you hear from the other characters in the book, but obviously Cybil's voice is the one that's really the most clear and present and dominating throughout the story. But because her personality is so clearly portrayed, you understand that the issues she has with her family are of her own making.
- [25:02]
B
Oh, completely.
- [25:04]
A
And I think that's so hard to pull off. But the author did it so well. And yeah, she is very spiky, you know. But one thing that I kept thinking about throughout in a really weird way, and this shouldn't really be a connection I made because of a lot of the details of the plot and what happens, but like, it made me really look forward to having like a very rich life when I get older, you know, Like, I loved thinking of her with her stack of paper and her tea and this thing that she spends hours doing every day. Like, I think we think of older people sometimes as, you know, less than in some way, like with more dull, kind of bland lives. And in some ways I guess it is. But she had this rich tapestry of writing and this hobby and, you know, in some ways I think it kind of kept her from getting close to people. But in terms of just like having a life that is that full as an older person and that there are still surprises and there are still relationships that you can build, I don't know, I really Liked that. I don't know if that resonated with you at all.
- [26:17]
B
I almost was meditating on the opposite of that, where especially at the beginning in the whole plot that takes place is, you know, circumstances opening up her life and her letting people into her life. And her life at the end is so much richer and more populated with different people, both within her family, speaking about her sister, but then also just these side relationships that she develops throughout it. But one thing that I was thinking of is just how I have a really weird relationship with the idea of retirement. Like, I don't. I feel like some people fetishize it in a way where they're like, I can't wait to retire early, and then I'm gonna. And especially men. I feel like sometimes you're like, I'm gonna golf all day. And retirement, to me, the idea of it feels very scary and unappealing. And at the beginning of it, it was clear that she had such an incredible career and that meant so much to her. And then her life became so small. And I think we've all known people, or I can say I've known people who have retired and their lives have become immeasurably smaller, and it's aged them in some way where, like, having people in your life having purpose via work. And there are certainly many other ways that one can have purpose. And I think this story tells how she found purpose and other aspects of her life outside of work. But, yeah, that beginning part was, like, really scary to me. And, you know, when she's writing letters to her or emails to her garden club, and, you know, she clearly takes this way too seriously, and this has become, like, a central part of her life in a way where she's maybe putting more seriousness or pressure on it than it merits. I was like, oh, Jesus. Like, it kind of terrifies me, you know? So I think that's also something that's so lovely about the book, is that, you know, the whole story is that even in retirement, even in your older age, you can still develop new relationships, you can still develop new hobbies. You can surprise yourself. And I think that, to me, is so heartening. But the state we found her in at the beginning is honestly, like, a personal fear of mine.
- [28:34]
A
That's understandable. I think it really reminded me of, like, the importance of getting used to being uncomfortable and trying new things and, like, pursuing personal growth, because the older you get. And I feel like I even see it now in my own life, in some ways, you just get more set in your Ways, like, Even in your 30s, you become less open to, like, trying new hobbies or trying, you know, new career paths or whatever. When in reality, like, I think the more open you are to that, the more flexible you are when you're older, too. And honestly, I kept reflecting when I was reading on, like, how grateful I am to have writing because hopefully, in one way or another, I will have that in some form, whether it's reading or writing or listening to audiobooks or whatever it is. Like, that's a real, you know, it's a real gift.
- [29:29]
B
I think I found that really special about the book was the relationship that she had to reading and how that was a topic that she used to connect with people in her life. Both, you know, her friend Rosemary, they were always talking about what they were reading, but then also reaching out to authors or, you know, connecting with people outside of her life. I found that really heartening and as a reader and a writer, but just, you know, like the tapestry that books create.
- [29:58]
A
Yes, me too. I totally agree with you. Did you have a favorite letter of hers, either to the authors, like she wrote to Joan Didion, she wrote to Ann Patchett, or were the family letters the ones that resonated with you the most?
- [30:11]
B
So I said before, I think my favorite plotline was the relationship between her and her daughter. I found that really powerful and really interesting to contemplate from her perspective, because by the end, I think you do really understand why Sybil is the way that she is, even if she is highly imperfect. And I think I also, you know, throughout the book, you really do see that she's not acting with malice, even when she says or does the complete wrong thing, like, she is trying. But the gap between trying her hardest and other people's expectations is sometimes wide. So that relationship was really interesting to me. But then the two side relationships that I liked the most, I loved the plotline between her and Basaam, the customer service representative at Kindred, who then she eventually goes on to find a job. And I thought it was so. I mean, it's a little hallmarky, but I thought there was something so lovely about, you know, in the first email. Oh, my gosh, she is so offensive towards him with her assumptions that he is in an Indian call center and, you know, who he is and what his life is like that she just throws right out there. But then ultimately. And you know, on his side because it's his job and he has to respond to her, I assume, but that they build this friendship and she ultimately ends up Changing his life. She gets him this engineering job, which is something that he thought that he would not be able to do with his certifications and degrees in the United States. And she finds him a job. She really does change his life.
- [31:52]
A
Was there any aspect of the. Because this was something. When I was reading that, I was a little bit worried that it was a little white savior. Yeah, in parts, yeah.
- [32:01]
B
You're completely right. But there is a doggedness to. I'm thinking of other people I know who are, like, Sybil of, like, an older white woman who is very pushy, and I'm like, yeah, she's getting people to do things. She's getting Dale to give you an interview.
- [32:17]
A
Yeah, yeah. What I was gonna say is, I think that I was worried about that. But then I think the fact that the author really illustrated that she was very offensive in the beginning, even though she didn't think she was being, you know, like, it kind of turned it on its head a little bit. And then at one point, she, like, actually ends up, in a weird way, getting him fired from his job because she is not really thinking, like, about his life beyond this sort of portrait that she has drawn of it. I think it was well handled, but there were some parts I was like, where is this going? But there's layers to it.
- [32:52]
B
And then my other favorite side plot line was the relationship between her and the dean of the English department. And I thought that was so fun. Of the fact that it comes to pass that her refusal to let Sybil audit classes has absolutely nothing to do with Sybil. And Sybil's obviously making it worse because she is being so dogged in pursuing this, and she cannot accept this. And the woman is just like. It has nothing to do with her. It is just like, of course she hates this woman who won't stop emailing her about this, but it's like, she's not settling in well. She's disrespected by her male colleagues, and this is one way that she can have power or something. But then when she meets her in person, she's like, I don't care about this. Like, honor whatever class you want, and that they then end up going on to become friends and sibils taking this poetry class. I found that plotline both very charming and also a very powerful reminder that, like, sometimes things really don't have anything to do with you.
- [33:53]
A
Yeah, it actually, in a weird way, as we're talking about it, it reminds me a lot of the Internet in some ways, because I think that like letter writing, when you are posting stuff online, in whatever form it may be, there's a sense that you can really control the narrative and you can really know everything that there is to know about a person, their life, how they feel from one post, one essay, one whatever, like, moment of Internet presence. But in actuality, like, there are whole worlds going on, you know, And I think that the Internet puts this barrier between us and everyone else that doesn't actually exist if you sit down with someone and talk to them. And in a weird way, I think Sybil was experiencing this again and again. Like, she had these letter exchanges. But when she actually did go deeper and deeper, she realized that, you know, everyone has their own stuff going on with her neighbor too, which I loved that relationship and that romance and that connection, you know, at the beginning, it's really just like she is in her own world and that's it. And she wants people to understand her point of view. And that's it. Yeah. And, yeah, she learns a lot more.
- [35:01]
B
That is a very good comparison to the Internet. I hadn't thought of that. I'm curious what your favorite correspondences or relationships were in the book.
- [35:10]
A
I really did find the relationship and the correspondence with the neighbor so beautiful, especially how it ended. It was so, so sweet. But like you, I've really loved the mother daughter relationship because I think I agree with you that I think it's not portrayed very often. But I actually think for a different reason than you maybe, I think that mother daughter relationships are really romanticized. And this idea of, like your mom being your best friend, I think is this thing that is like, if you don't have that exact relationship, you're failing in some way, or your mom's done something wrong, or you've done something wrong, when in reality, like, we're all imperfect. And like you said, I just thought it was different and refreshing and human, very human. There was only one part of it I really didn't like. And I don't know if this stood out to you too, but there's one letter where Sybil is writing to Fiona, her daughter, and she says something like, yes, I am your mom, or whatever, but I'm also just a girl. Do you remember that TikTok trend?
- [36:13]
B
Oh, no, I don't remember the TikTok trend, but this did stand out to me as well. And I. I can specifically tell you, I. I was listening to it last night when I was walking to the subway. And I can tell you specifically where I was on the street, because I like, kind of stopped. And I was like, how do I feel about this? Like, does this excuse her? Because it's true, you know, she's just a person in that relationship. And especially in the earlier years, I think she is the adult and Fiona is the child. But in their adult relationship, like I do see that as somewhat of a valid point, but I tripped on it too where I was like, I'm not sure how I feel about this, but tell me about the Tick Tock trend. I'm not, I'm unfamiliar.
- [36:55]
A
So there was this Tick Tock Instagram video trend where it was basically like emotional music, like remember that your mom is just a girl too. So I doubt that this is connected in any way. But for some reason I hooked on it and it just felt kind of like you. Like I just stopped and I was like something about that felt really off to me and I don't know why it did necessarily because I understand the point. Maybe it just didn't feel like Sybil to me that she would say that. I don't know. I think the parent child dynamic, where the parent is a little bit emotionally immature in their own ways is very interesting and something a lot of people can relate to. And that doesn't mean that like that can't evolve or change or the parent can't accept responsibility. The child can't accept, you know, that they could maybe come to the table a different way as well. So yeah, it was just, it was a great relationship.
- [37:44]
B
I'm also thinking as we're talking about who has a voice in authorship and you know, I feel like, and this is a deep generalization but you know, there's not as many 70, 80 year old women writing on the Internet. And so I feel like I see the inverse of this relationship played out over and over. Women writing think pieces about their difficult mothers. I'm thinking about Molly. John Fast just wrote a full memoir about her relationship, her difficult relationship with her mother, Erika Jeong. And you know, like you often see people writing memoirs, articles, talking on podcasts about difficult relationships with mothers. I'm not saying that those mothers aren't difficult, but like there's much fewer accounts at least that I'm seeing from mothers perspectives. And maybe that's also just my age that you know, most of my peers have children that are so young who aren't writing their own pov and then, you know, I'm not following a lot of 70 or 80 year old writers or creators. And so yeah, it's just like a relationship that I see portrayed so frequently. From the other side.
- [38:56]
A
Yeah.
- [38:57]
B
And I can't think. I'm sure there must be. I'm sure this is not the first time that I've seen this portrayed in a book or a movie, but, like, I really can't think of any examples right now.
- [39:07]
A
Yeah, you make a great point. And I wonder if it's just like. I think part of the frustration in this relationship that I think a lot of people can relate to is like, a lot of, you know, boomers or people of different generations, like, don't really, I think, have the same language or tools or resources or haven't historically to, like, access very difficult emotions, to confront them head on. And, you know, they don't come from a generation where people went to therapy regularly. That is not a thing. And I think when you have a child who does have access to that kind of stuff, like, it's just bound to create friction. And I think some of that is really evident between Sybil and Fiona. Well, are you a letter writer? And did this make you want to write letters? And if so, to who?
- [39:55]
B
No, I'm not a letter writer. I mean, I certainly had in school an assigned pet and pal for some time. I don't remember anything about them, where they lived. Like, it wasn't a very formative part of my childhood. And then I like to write cards, I like to give people cards to celebrate milestones. But outside of that, I don't have correspondence with anyone, even in email. Like, I don't have meaningful or deep correspondence with anyone. I don't know that I want it. I think I really value in person, in a voice connection. There's something really lovely about it, but I don't know that I am wistful about wanting to have a letter writing relationship with people. You know what it did remind me of? In Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert, she talks about how her. And I don't know if this is still true, but at the time she was writing it, her entire friendship with Ann Patchett was conducted over. They wrote each other letters. And I remember just finding that so kind of anachronistic, but also I was like, yeah, I feel like this fits for these two people. So I think it's lovely for others, but I don't think that I would be terribly well suited to it and. Or that I want it. I don't know. Do you aspire to write letters to people now or have you?
- [41:14]
A
So I do. I have had pen pals over the years. I have been not super consistent. I have one friend who I met in college. And we really, it's really strange. We occasionally talk on text, but mostly we send emails like maybe a couple times a year that are very more like letter like, you know what I mean? Wow. Which is really nice because, you know, you're never going to like go back through a daily text chain. But I often like reread the emails and because there's only maybe 20, 30 of them, I can see where I was like 10 years ago and when I first moved to New York City and all of that. So there's that. Maybe a year and a half ago, I got stationary, like nice desk stationary, and I keep a stack of it on my desk right in front of me. And I do send quite a few letters. I mean, they're more like notes. They're not like, like, tell me an example. Like, if someone messages me something really kind or supportive about my book, I will ask them if I can send them a letter to thank them. Oh, wow. And it's honestly more like an exercise for myself than it is like some magnanimous thing. But I like the act of just like taking a minute to say thanks because it does mean a lot to me. And like, I can say that better, I think, with my like physical handwriting on a physical sheet of paper than I can like in a DM or like, if I am going to an event with an author that's really meant something to me, I will write them a letter. Now, I didn't used to do that.
- [42:41]
B
But wow, you are a letter writer.
- [42:44]
A
It's the paper man. It gets some nice stationery and it will inspire you. I just have it in front of me in these like sheets and it's like, I love them. They have like floral details. It says, from the desk of Olivia mentor. Yeah, yeah. I really enjoy it. I really enjoy letter writing. My handwriting is horrific though.
- [43:02]
B
I think you're too hard on your handwriting. I think you have like fun, interesting handwriting.
- [43:06]
A
Thanks. I hope people can read it. But yeah, I think it's a really beautiful lost art. But I think it is best when you're writing a letter or a note to someone you don't already talk to non stop over text or something, you know, like, it feels different. Well, let's take one more ad break and then we will talk about the story of how this book came to be, which is so interesting. This episode is sponsored by Caraway and very exciting news. Caraway is having their sitewide holiday sale right now where you can get up to 20% off our favorite cookware and Caraway's other amazing products. So if you are hosting anytime during this holiday season, treat yourself to a new cookware set that is going to keep your life as stress and mess free as possible. Caraway's Non Toxic kitchenware saves you time and space in the kitchen. Whether you're baking sweet treats or roasting a whole turkey, Caraway's got your back for the big day.
- [44:07]
B
We both love our ceramic cookware sets from Caraway and Olivia has been using hers for close to six years now. So this is not a new obsession. Ceramic has a naturally slick surface which means minimal oil or butter for slide off the pan eggs. And it also means easy cleaning like so easy. I was surprised by it in a very positive way. Over a hundred thousand people have given their Caraway kitchen sets five stars. So you can trust it's not just us.
- [44:35]
A
The holidays are closer than ever, so get their gift or yours in time. Visit CarawayHome.com BoP to take advantage of this limited time offer for up to 25% off next purchase. Again, that's Caraway Home.com BOP to get new kitchenware before the holidays. Caraway Non Toxic Kitchenware made modern. So before we get into the origins of the book and the author's writing story, some quick stuff about the ending, which there is like a big sort of reveal towards the end of the book, which spoiler it is that her son died in an accident which we had known earlier in the book. But the reveal is that Sybil was there and wasn't able to prevent it, even though she should have been paying more attention maybe, and she feels a lot of guilt for this. What did you think of this reveal? Was it shocking to you?
- [45:33]
B
So I did not feel as moved by either of the climactic plot lines, meaning both the reveal that she was writing to Gilbert, how Gilbert died, that she had more of a role in it than it being a pure accident, just that, you know, she wasn't watching him as closely as she felt she should have. And then the secondary reveal of who was writing her the threatening letters. I found both of those reveals to be sort of anticlimactic. But in the case of the Gilbert one, I think it definitely added a lot of nuance to her inner emotional life and you know, why she detached from her children. She explains it in a letter to Fiona and she says, you know, that maybe she did push them away because the idea that if she were to lose them, it would hurt less, you know, it doesn't justify any of it, but it did kind of make sense in a way. And then, you know, also the fact that Dan, her ex husband, didn't know this added a layer of, you know, why she wasn't able to write him back at the end of his life. So I think it explained some things, but it wasn't like the powerful, like, oh my God moment of like the twist in a thriller. I didn't see that coming at all. It wasn't quite shocking. And, you know, with the stalker plotline, I almost was underwhelmed. I think we could have taken out that whole plot line for me at least.
- [47:04]
A
I literally have forgotten about that.
- [47:07]
B
I really thought that it was going to be bigger in that, you know, perhaps it was and I don't know Maryland law at all. But I was. I was thinking maybe it had something to do with like a death penalty case or some type of like wrongful conviction based on DNA evidence or something like that. Versus the reality was the person who went to jail had committed a crime. Not the worst crime in the world. You know, he was like seemingly working for the Mafia, maybe as a driver. He wasn't like the kingpin or anything. And that she didn't offer mercy to his family when they asked. I thought it was going to be much bigger.
- [47:47]
A
Yeah, gosh, I. As we're talking, I'm remembering just how much was packed into this book. But yeah, I don't think it was necessary either. I mean, I think the thing with her son, similar to what you were saying, is that the reveal packed a big punch in terms of characterization and how Sybil is the way she is, but not in terms of plot to me at all. And I don't actually know if the storyline with her career and what happened and the stalker and all of that kind of did anything for either.
- [48:17]
B
To me, I guess it gave her a reason to reflect on her career or it brought her career into the present in a way it wouldn't have otherwise been outside of Guy, the judge that she clerked for his passing and going to his funeral brought it into the present. So, you know, maybe it was for that purpose. But I found so much more richness in the smaller relationships and moments in this book than in like the maybe splashier plottier reveals of it.
- [48:45]
A
Yeah, totally agree with you. Well, there is a very fascinating Wall Street Journal article about this author and it's titled she Almost Gave Up. Now she has the year's unlikely hit novel. If you are a writer or you read this book, I can't recommend enough that you read it, but we will Go over the high points. So essentially this author, Virginia Evans, wrote many, many books, went to Ireland to get her MFA, came back to the U.S. it was during COVID She was in this rock bottom moment and she started writing the Correspondent kind of as a writing exercise, inspired by the fact that she had written a letter to Ann Patchett after Commonwealth came out saying how much she loved it. And Ann Patchett replied and they started this correspondence and now Ann Patchett's blurb is on the COVID of the book, which, God, she must wake up every morning and be like, what is my life? But anyway, this was the book that she sold after like rejections and failures. And now it's just the biggest thing. I don't. Did you read this too? Did you just like love every word of it?
- [49:49]
B
I read the article and I was trying to find. I'd read. I don't know if it was an interview. I'd read something on substack that had some of these same talking points in it earlier, but I couldn't find it. There's something really interesting about her writing this as a devotional almost. I think she said she was writing it from like 4 or 5am in a closet. There was something about the fact that she wasn't writing this necessarily to get published. She was writing it because I think she said her father in law had Covid or was having some type of health issues and you know, she was using it to process. I thought that was so interesting. You know what? I wish it touched on more. I think it's so fascinating that I believe the author is 39 and she wrote from the perspective of sybil in her 70s and 80s. And I'm just so curious about that. Of like, was this inspired by her own mother, A mother in law, somebody like, it's like the character felt so rich or maybe she just made it up. But I found that so fascinating that this is an experience that is so different from her own. But it has such richness to it.
- [50:56]
A
Yeah, definitely. I want to say, and I could be wrong. I want to say she said something, I don't know if this interview or somewhere else about how the novel was her way of exploring like this idea of regret and like things maybe you wish would have gone differently, done a different way. I could be totally wrong, but I can definitely see like, I think she has kids. I think the idea of writing an exercise of like a parent who maybe was doing the best they could and it still wasn't enough in some ways, but found a way, like back to, you know, their child and healing in some way could be really. I don't know, I could see it being, like, very beautiful in a weird way, because I'm sure every parent's fear is like, I'm going to mess this up in some way. Right?
- [51:41]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [51:42]
A
They interview her editor, Amy Einhorn, in the Wall Street Journal piece, and she says, like, we didn't get picked up by any big book clubs. Virginia isn't a cool girl in Brookly, Brooklyn, which I found kind of funny because I think those are, like, some stereotypes of, like, the most fancy, like, successful authors. I don't know if you feel that way as a cool girl in Brooklyn or did you feel offended on behalf of cool girls in Brooklyn everywhere?
- [52:09]
B
I didn't feel offended. But I think the quiet part that's not being said out loud here is that Amy Einhorn is a power player. Like, the fact that she acquired the book is part of the engine behind the book. Like, she's a very well regarded, respected.
- [52:27]
A
And there was an auction for the book and it was a big submission.
- [52:31]
B
Yes. So she's like, we didn't get any of these other things, but the fact that she acquired it says something within the publishing industry. So that was a part that I was like, well, it's not as if she's a complete underdog.
- [52:45]
A
Yeah, you're totally right. And I guess it is true that, like, there is this sense, I think, in the industry that, like, if you're not a major book club pick, like, you're kind of not screwed, but, like, it takes that much more work, you know, to find the path to success.
- [53:00]
B
That's what I love about this book's story is it's so fascinating. I don't think this is a TikTok book. I don't think that this is, you know, the same as, like, a Sally Rooney book that's, like, you know, a McCarran park book that you're seeing people. I mean, it's too cold right now, but that you're seeing, like, cool Brooklyn hipsters.
- [53:19]
A
Read.
- [53:20]
B
Like, there is something really wholesome about the way that this is getting passed from word of mouth and, you know, book clubs. Like, it's a publishing success story that feels of another time. And there's something really special that this book has, like, been so successful. It says it's in its 14th printing. I think they printed, correct me if I'm wrong, like, 750,000 copies or something. Like, it's, like, crazy.
- [53:44]
A
Yeah, I'm sure it'll hit a Million before the end of the year.
- [53:47]
B
Crazy.
- [53:48]
A
Yeah, it really is slow and steady and I think it was on the bestsellers list again this week. But it was. Yeah, yeah. There was this one quote from the author in the piece and she says, for all the years I was trying and failing to cross the finish line, it was like a noise in my head. A noise of hope and wanting, but also failure and disappointment. And now that noise is gone. And I was like, if that's not the dream, if that's not the dream to have a book where you never have to go through the cycle of like, I think I might be good enough, but maybe I'm not good enough. I want to be good enough. Maybe I'm not good enough. I want this. Maybe it's not for me, you know, like, oh, what relief. And I'm so happy for her.
- [54:31]
B
Well, what I find so inspiring about her story is just. I don't know if this is like quite the word, I mean, but like the gumption that she has. I can't remember how many books it says that she wrote and threw away. And the fact that she just kept doggedly pursuing this dream and the fact that she found strength within herself to continue writing books. I don't know that I would have the same strength in her position.
- [54:55]
A
It's so inspiring. I think we all have these moments, like, as writers where you have something happen and you're just like, this is the sign. This is the sign that I'm not meant to do this and I'm not good enough. And it seems like from what she said, she had a lot of those signs and yet what did they actually mean? You know, they didn't mean that she was never going to be a bestseller. They just meant that, you know, it wasn't the book, it wasn't the time. And I think it's a really good reminder of that.
- [55:22]
B
Yeah.
- [55:22]
A
Although it is, you know, the exception, maybe not the rule. But I'm very glad for her.
- [55:28]
B
Yeah, I would actually love to see. I'm a little disappointed that I didn't tap into this book, you know, when it first launched, when she was on tour. I would love to see an event with her. I would love to see her speak about this book.
- [55:41]
A
Yes, me too. Well, let's move into some men matter.
- [55:46]
B
Let's do it.
- [55:52]
A
What are you obsessed with?
- [55:54]
B
Okay, I am obsessed with these comfy home pants. They're not quite sweatpants. They're like lounge pants. Pajama pants maybe. So it's from a brand called Lissette. And it's their pointelle boxer pants. And I bought a pajama set for my friend Elizabeth last Christmas, and she was here recently and she was wearing them, and I was like, oh, I actually really do like those pants. And I ended up buying a pair of pants maybe like a month and a half ago. And, Olivia, they are all I want to wear at home. They are so cozy, but they're not that thick and they're very soft. I'm so into them. They're a little expensive. They're like $120. So I have been holding out for Black Friday to get a second pair of these, and they just went on sale. They're 30% off now. So I ordered a second pair this morning. But I am. Oh, I'm obsessed with these.
- [56:47]
A
Very cute.
- [56:48]
B
I will also warn that the lighter colors my friend Elizabeth has, the light pink ones are slightly see through. So I have a navy pair and then I got a gray pair as my second one. So, like the stick to the darker colors if you don't want them to be see through.
- [57:02]
A
Good to know. Good advice.
- [57:03]
B
Yeah. What about you? What are you obsessed with?
- [57:05]
A
I don't have anything this week. Okay.
- [57:08]
B
An obsession this week.
- [57:09]
A
Sad.
- [57:10]
B
Do you have a book that you read?
- [57:11]
A
Yes, I read the Fox Hunt by Caitlin Brees, which is a fantasy novel, so that's new for me. But I was sent an advance copy of this one. It comes out in February, and I really liked the COVID I was kind of just in the mood for something dark. It's a novel about a fictional modern day university in England that is like the most elite, like, more than Oxford, more than Cambridge. It's set in the city where it's kind of made up by the university and the various buildings and the faculty and the students. And the main character is this woman who finds herself kind of in these secret societies in this university and ends up discovering, like, a hidden world that exists on the underside of the city. I absolutely loved this book. And I don't like fantasy, so that's really saying a lot for me. But it's very atmospheric. It's not propelled just by romance. There is a romance, but, like, it's not traditional nor what you think it's gonna be, and it's just the writing is great. I really liked this one, Her Cold, Dark Day.
- [58:22]
B
Oh, this really appeals to me because I do like fantasy, but also because I love a secret society story.
- [58:28]
A
Yes. I was thinking about you, and if you'd like it or not. I think you would, because you love dark academia. You love a secret society.
- [58:35]
B
I am obsessed with secret societies. I mean, I, as a child, I grew up near Yale and there was like in middle school, my childhood best friend Jen and I were obsessed with the skull and bones and like we would make my mom dry. Like they didn't have windows on the outside. It was like these like stone, old fortress buildings with no windows. And I was fascinated by them. And I mean, the movie the Skulls with Joshua Jackson and Paul Walker was like a deep point of obsession for me. And I've just held onto that. I'm obsessed with the secret society.
- [59:08]
A
You'll probably like it then. It's also like deeply British. There's so many characters and all their names are like the most absurd, British, aristocratic sounding names I've ever heard. But hats off to the author.
- [59:20]
B
I love a British book too. Yeah, nothing you're saying is, is a red flag for me.
- [59:25]
A
Great. Well, what did you read?
- [59:27]
B
Okay, so I finished Daddy Issues by Kate Goldbeck, which just came out last week. And this is the romance about this kind of like, failed to launch. 26 year old who's living with her mom and working as a bartender and you know, her dreams have kind of collapsed in the realities of COVID when she moved home and like hasn't been able to get into a PhD program and she starts a relationship with this single dad next door who's the manager of Achilles. And I really liked this book. I thought it was really interesting and really unique in the romance genre. It was like a romance that I hadn't read before. I thought it was really interesting to read a fully Gen Z character in a romance.
- [60:14]
A
Yeah. Okay, well, it sounds like you liked it. Do you like it as much as the last one or.
- [60:19]
B
I still think I preferred you again, better. It was just. I don't usually like enemies to lovers, but something about like the snappy, snarly banter in that book just. Oh, it really did it for me. And this one is more of a like tender, soft center type romance, so. Yeah, I think I liked that better. It's also a New York book. You again. So that really appeals to me. But I really enjoyed this too, and I'll be so excited to see what this author writes next. And then in a surprise to probably nobody, I started reading Between Two Kings by Lindsay Straub, the second book in my Snakehorn series, which Olivia, I will have you know, was like number three on the New York Times bestseller list this week or something.
- [61:05]
A
I'm not surprised.
- [61:08]
B
I am not the only One reading Basilisk porn.
- [61:12]
A
Oh, I know you're not. I know you're not. You're in good company.
- [61:17]
B
But yeah, I'm reading the second book and the thing about this book, I mean, it's interesting and very sexy and whatever, but the thing about it is, is I'm like, the first book was so wild. I was like, how do you top it? How do you top it? And there's no way that she can.
- [61:36]
A
Top she topped it Between Two Kings. Is that literal?
- [61:42]
B
So far? I'm like halfway through. And no, the first book is more of a love triangle than this one. So I'm very curious what's gonna happen in the second half because so far it is less of a love triangle than the title would imply.
- [61:57]
A
Okay, good to know.
- [61:59]
B
Yeah.
- [62:00]
A
Well, we have no book club in December. We don't. I mean, we have a lot of other book recommendations. Just go through some episodes. If you need something else to read in December. If you want to talk to us about the Correspondent though, or anything, you can join us in the Facebook group under Bound on Paper Podcast. In our BFF group formerly known as as Geneva, which is under Bound on Paper Podcast. Instagram. Bound on Paper podcast. I'm on Instagram and substack liviamentor and you can pre order my upcoming book Little One right now. You can get a signed copy pre ordered if you'd like. All the info is in the show notes. I would be so grateful if you did that.
- [62:41]
B
Definitely go do that. And after you've pre ordered Olivia's fantastic book Little One, which I raved about a couple episodes ago, I read in one sitting. It is not my usual fare and I absolutely devoured it. It was so good. You can follow me on Instagram ecamfreeman and my newsletter is @beccafreeman.substack.com Bye bye.