Writing Young Adult Fiction with Jessica Goodman

Summary

Podcast Summary: Bad On Paper – Writing Young Adult Fiction with Jessica Goodman

Release Date: May 21, 2025

In this engaging episode of Bad On Paper, hosts Becca Freeman and Olivia Muenter delve into the intricate world of Young Adult (YA) fiction with bestselling author Jessica Goodman. The conversation spans Jessica’s journey as a YA author, the evolving landscape of the YA market, the interplay between teen and adult readership, and the nuanced challenges of authentically portraying teenage experiences. Below is a detailed summary of the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from the episode.

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1. Jessica Goodman’s Journey into YA Fiction

Becca Freeman opens the interview by highlighting Jessica’s background, noting her success with titles like The Meadowbrook Murders and They Wish They Were Us. Jessica shares her deep-rooted connection to reading and writing YA fiction, emphasizing how her college experience was pivotal in shaping her career.

Jessica Goodman [14:39]: “I was one of those kids who grew up reading constantly. Whenever I could, I would.”

Jessica recounts a formative moment in college where she completed a 50-page YA novel as part of a creative writing class project. This experience not only honed her writing skills but also cemented her passion for crafting stories that resonate with teenage emotions and challenges.

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2. Evolution of the YA Market

Jessica discusses significant shifts in the YA market since she began publishing in 2020. She attributes many changes to the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic, which disrupted traditional book tours and led to an increase in digital events.

Jessica Goodman [19:25]: “Publishers are trying to find ways to get people excited using sprayed edges as a way to do that for all sorts of different genres.” [22:33]

Romantasy has surged in popularity, dominating both adult and YA markets. Jessica notes that while she personally doesn’t gravitate toward Romantasy, she appreciates the market’s diversity.

Jessica Goodman [22:33]: “It started as like a fantasy element. Fantasy readers are so enthusiastic and ardently excited about collector's editions and special editions.” [22:33]

She also highlights the emergence of sprayed edges as a trend for special editions, initially rooted in fantasy but now expanding across various genres to enhance the physical appeal of books.

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3. Navigating Publishing Changes Post-Pandemic

The pandemic forced publishers to pivot from in-person events to digital platforms. Jessica reflects on how her first book, They Wish They Were Us, saw a shift from planned in-person tours to successful digital events.

Jessica Goodman [19:25]: “There are just fewer places that are doing book publicity for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with the publishing industry.” [25:09]

She explains that the decline in traditional media coverage, especially in the YA sector, has led authors to increasingly rely on influencers, bookstagrammers, and content creators to reach their audience.

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4. YA vs. Adult Readership: The Crossover Appeal

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the split between adult and teen readers of YA fiction. Jessica observes that while YA novels are marketed primarily to teenagers, there is substantial adult readership, often more prominent at author events.

Jessica Goodman [26:32]: “It's usually more adults. And that's often because who's going to like if you're a teenager and you're going to an event, like you often have to get your parents to go with you.”

She emphasizes the concept of crossover appeal, where her books attract both teen and adult readers. However, she notes practical challenges, such as the high cost of hardcover YA books, which can be prohibitive for teenage buyers.

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5. Authenticity and Constraints in YA Fiction

Jessica articulates the delicate balance between maintaining authentic teenage experiences and adhering to gatekeeper constraints imposed by teachers, librarians, and societal norms. She advocates for authentic representation of teenage life, including themes like partying, substance use, and personal struggles, arguing that fiction serves to reflect, not prescribe.

Jessica Goodman [33:16]: “I don't think that these books need to be, like, shining examples of what a perfect teenager looks like.” [33:16]

While addressing sensitive topics, Jessica strives to ensure her narratives resonate with genuine teenage experiences without perpetuating unrealistic ideals or shying away from important issues.

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6. Incorporating Technology in YA Literature

With the rapid evolution of technology, Jessica shares her strategy for incorporating social media and modern tech elements into her YA novels without anchoring them to a specific time frame. This approach aims to make her stories timeless and relatable across different eras.

Jessica Goodman [35:47]: “My main goal when I'm writing a young adult book is to have it feel like it could exist in any time period.” [35:47]

She avoids using hyper-specific slang or naming particular social media platforms unless it serves the story, ensuring that the emotional core remains consistent regardless of technological changes.

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7. The Art of Writing Thrillers in YA

Jessica discusses the unique aspects of writing YA thrillers, particularly in maintaining a fast-paced narrative while avoiding overly graphic violence or horror elements. She describes her style as "cozy," focusing on suspense and mystery without crossing into territory that could be traumatizing for younger readers.

Jessica Goodman [30:45]: “We want to be cognizant of, like, what the intended audience is consuming.” [30:45]

She also touches on feedback from publishers regarding language use, such as limiting profanity to maintain accessibility and avoid detachment of the audience.

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8. Challenges and Rewards of Writing Multiple YA Novels

Reflecting on her experience, Jessica acknowledges the never-ending challenges of writing each new book, despite having multiple publications under her belt. She emphasizes that every novel presents unique hurdles, from plot development to character arcs, underscoring that the creative process remains a continuous learning journey.

Jessica Goodman [47:38]: “It's hard every time. Every book is a shit show.” [47:38]

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9. Overview of Jessica Goodman’s Latest Book: The Meadowbrook Murders

Jessica provides a synopsis of her most recent work, The Meadowbrook Murders, a YA dark academia thriller set in an elite boarding school. The protagonist, Amy, grapples with the sudden murder of her best friend and becomes a suspect herself, driving her quest to uncover the truth while clearing her name.

Jessica Goodman [46:27]: “Meadowbrook Murders is set at an elite boarding school. Our main character wakes up on her first day of senior week and learns that her best friend has been murdered.” [46:27]

She assures listeners that the book maintains suspense without delving into excessively dark or gruesome content, aligning with her "cozy thriller" approach.

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10. Embracing Digital Platforms and Community Engagement

Throughout the episode, Jessica and the hosts emphasize the importance of digital engagement and community building for authors in the modern publishing landscape. They discuss strategies for leveraging social media, book clubs, and online forums to connect with readers and foster a loyal fanbase.

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11. Hosts’ Personal Reads and Recommendations

Concluding the episode, Becca and Olivia share their current reading obsessions, further enriching the discussion with personal insights and recommendations. Becca highlights Silver Elite by Danny Francisco, while Olivia recommends All the Other Mothers Hate Me by Sarah Harmon, providing listeners with diverse literary options to explore.

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Conclusion

This episode of Bad On Paper offers a comprehensive exploration of YA fiction through the lens of Jessica Goodman’s experiences and expertise. From understanding market trends and navigating publishing challenges to maintaining authenticity in storytelling, listeners gain valuable insights into the dynamic world of YA literature. Whether you're an aspiring YA author or an avid reader, this conversation sheds light on the intricate balance between creativity, market demands, and genuine representation in young adult storytelling.

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Where to Follow Jessica Goodman:

• Instagram: @jessicagoodman
• Latest Book: The Meadowbrook Murders

Stay connected with Bad On Paper for more inspiring interviews and literary discussions every Wednesday.

Transcript

[Olivia Mentor]

Hi, everyone, and welcome to Bound Paper podcast. I'm Olivia Mentor.

[Becca Freeman]

And I'm Becca Freeman.

[Olivia Mentor]

And today we have an episode with author Jessica Goodman talking about what it's like to write ya.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I'm really excited about this. I feel like we. Two summers ago, three summers ago, this was 2022, we did a whole series of how a book gets made. And we talked to an author paired with an agent, and then with an editor and then with a publicist, kind of all about the book process. And I feel like this summer maybe we're looping back a little to some niche topics of how books get made. So we're talking to a YA author. We also have an episode coming up in July talking to a spicy book author. I think we want to talk about the COVID process. So, yeah, just kind of some like, book Inside baseball.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm looking forward to all of it.

[Becca Freeman]

Me too. But before we get to that, tell me your high.

[Olivia Mentor]

My high was that last week we had some really warm days, like high 70s, low 80s. And there was this one day, I think it was maybe Thursday, it was about 80 degrees. I was on a really long walk. I've been doing this like four mile loop and it's been bringing me so much happiness. But I was on the walk, I was sweating profusely. And I texted Jake and I was like, that's it. We are going to a Mexican restaurant. We were sitting outside. This has to happen. I don't care what I had planned to cook. Go, goodbye. It's gone. It's not important anymore. So we ended up going to like a really early dinner at this Mexican restaurant near our house. Sitting outside, it was so hot, I was almost sweating, but not quite so. It was like truly hot. And I got an ice cold Modelo. And I swear to you, it was maybe the best sip of beer I've ever had in my life. Like that first sip of ice cold beer with lime on a hot day. I just. The sun shining on my face. I was wearing shorts.

[Becca Freeman]

This is a station vibe.

[Olivia Mentor]

It was it. Yes. It was an hour of pure bliss. Pure bliss and happiness. And it felt like, okay, warm weather is officially here. Of course I spoke too soon. Cause today it is really chilly, actually. But it was just so nice. It was the nicest weekday evening I could imagine. And then we got ice cream afterwards, so.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, thrilled for you. Thrilled.

[Olivia Mentor]

But speaking of warm weather, happiness, tell me about your high.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, my gosh. I just got back from a girls trip to Palm beach over the weekend. And this is a Trip that my college friends and I have tried to do once a year since the year we turned 30. It hasn't always worked out. You know, there was Covid. There's been some years where pregnancy stuff hasn't worked. And so we try to go every year. This year was our biggest yet. It was eight people, which was usually it's four, so it was bigger in size and scope. Oh my gosh, Olivia, it was so fun. We went to my favorite hotel, the breakers, which is just so nice. It's a resort property, so they have four pools. You don't really need to leave during the day. You know, they're shopping in Palm beach and you can go to the other hotels, but during the day we just like park at the pool. I feel like a different person. Just getting a little bit of a tan laying by the pool with my friends. People on Instagram were very kindly saying that it looked like I was glowing. And I was like, yeah, I'm just a girl who's meant to be on vacation with her friends at all times. Like, this is my peak state.

[Olivia Mentor]

That sounds wonderful. It's a good state to be in.

[Becca Freeman]

It was so good. And then the experience of all cramming into a bathroom. I mean, not eight of us were staying in a hotel room. It was three of us in a hotel room, all cramming into a bathroom and getting ready together. Like the college experience. Kind of going out for like a pre dinner drink and then going out to a great dinner and then I think we were in bed by 11 every night. Like it's not a late night place.

[Olivia Mentor]

That sounds ideal. What is your go to poolside drink? Did you kind of switch it up every day with the beverage or do you usually like around. I don't. What time are you ordering the first beverage? I want to know, like your resort habits.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, so I am promiscuous with poolside drinks. I don't have a regular. I'm kind of bopping around.

[Olivia Mentor]

You gotta switch it up.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I'd say the first drink was probably around 11. It was before lunch. It was before lunch.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's fair.

[Becca Freeman]

First coffee, hydration, then poolside cocktail. Around 11 I did a pineapple margarita. Frozen pineapple margarita in a pineapple. I love any drink. You know, fruit, give me a fun vessel and I'm sold. I did a mudslide one day which made my tummy hurt. Wouldn't recommend an ice cold glass of milk by the pool. Was not surprise to just me. Was not a good move. I also did it was Almost like a mojito with, like, muddled fruit in it. Like a berry mojito. That was very good.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yum. That sounds all great.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, it was ideal.

[Olivia Mentor]

Good. Well, welcome back.

[Becca Freeman]

Thank you.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm glad you had such a nice time.

[Becca Freeman]

Do you want to hear my low? In case anyone is like, wow, this girl's just too high and mighty. Her vacation, her tan, spending all this money. So I came back, and I'd like to tell you about a situation that will henceforth be known as tuna sandwichgate.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay.

[Becca Freeman]

Are you scared?

[Olivia Mentor]

This could go a lot of different directions, you know? So I'm ready.

[Becca Freeman]

So I land yesterday at dinner time, like 5:30. I have no groceries in my house. It's gonna take me an hour to get home. And I was like, ugh, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna get something at LaGuardia and then I'm gonna bring it home with me. Like, I've just hacked dinner. Look at me. And I've done this before. I did this once. There's a chopped at LaGuardia, and I love chopped. I think it's the superior fast casual salad place. But there's not one near me. So I got chopped to go one time, and I was, like, thrilled with myself. So I'm kind of going through the terminal and I see a potbelly sandwich. And a weird thing about me is that I love a potbelly tuna sandwich. It's so good.

[Olivia Mentor]

You were really playing with fire here. Laguardia. Potbelly tuna sandwich to go.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, so I get my tuna sandwich. I'm thrilled. And I love their hot peppers. Pot belly. Hot peppers are so good. So I get my tuna sandwich. I'm like, smugly walking through the terminal, like, yes, look at me. I get my Uber. And in my head, when it comes up on the app, I'm like, oh, that's fancy. It's a Cadillac Escalade. Nice. Like, look at me get in this car. And immediately the air conditioner is on pretty high. And I had like, kind of put the sandwich on top of my carry on bag, and it's like blowing tuna scent into the air. And I was like, oh, no. Huh. Okay. Like my Uber rating. So, you know, I turned down the air, like, the airflow, and I move the sandwich kind of away from the vent, and I'm like, it's fine. Everything's going great. So then we get to my highway exit and I'm like, oh, let me get my. My keys out. Cause they're kind of buried in my carry on, and I pick up the sandwich, which has been resting on top of my carry on bag. And the problem with the hot peppers is that they're kind of oily.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, no.

[Becca Freeman]

And the bag that the sandwich is in just, like, kind of has disintegrated. So now the bag is disintegrated. It was double wrapped in two layers of paper, but one layer of paper comes out with a bag. So now I have this kind of, like, loose tuna sandwich that's, like, wet wrapped in one layer of paper. Also, the top of my bag, the side of my bag is, like, all covered in tuna juice. And I'm like, getting my. I'm getting my keys out and I'm like, can I get out of this car without the tuna sandwich, like, disintegrating everywhere in the backseat of this man's Cadillac Escalade, Might I remind you? I'm like, careful. I'm, like, holding it like a football or like a baby. Like, I'm like, how can I keep this tuna sandwich intact? Because God save my Uber rating if this thing falls apart. Like, I do not know how I'm going to explain this. So it didn't get worse. I thought I was really nervous that it was going to get worse, but I, like, must have looked like such a weirdo the way I was carrying this tuna sandwich, like it was the baby Jesus out of the car. I open my front door and there's a little table in the lobby. And I, like, had to put the sandwich down because I was like, I don't think I can. I can't one hand it, and I don't think I can get it upstairs without it, like, falling apart. So then I had to go upstairs, I got foil, and then I, like, came back downstairs wrapped in the foil and brought it upstairs. It was like I was handling a bomb. I, to be honest with you, am unclear how much of this situation my Uber driver clocked.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, it's hard not to clock a tuna sandwich.

[Becca Freeman]

You know, if he gave me one star, I so deserved it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, the funny thing is, if he did notice it, which we'll just assume he did, he probably thought that you brought this on the plane and then you traveled with it out to the car. Because, like, my assumption wouldn't be, oh, this person bought it in the airport on their way out.

[Becca Freeman]

Just a cool, glamorous girl who carried on a tuna sandwich and then just.

[Olivia Mentor]

Kept it there the whole time. Like, at least the people who bring tuna on planes like, consume it. So he's thinking you have no tuna boundaries at this point.

[Becca Freeman]

It was such a mistake.

[Olivia Mentor]

Was it good?

[Becca Freeman]

It was delicious.

[Olivia Mentor]

Delicious. Well, you know, all's well that ends well.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. I don't know what my Uber rating was before to see if I can tell if this guy gave me a bad rating, but I deserve it.

[Olivia Mentor]

My Uber rating is terrible and I have no idea why because I always tip. I'm silent. I don't know. I don't do anything.

[Becca Freeman]

You don't bring a tuna, a large tuna sandwich from LaGuardia.

[Olivia Mentor]

I. It's not once, not once have I have I brought the tuna from LaGuardia into a car or anywhere near me.

[Becca Freeman]

Most people can probably say that for themselves, but I'm not that smart.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, it didn't spill. I at first thought this was going to go like a food poisoning.

[Becca Freeman]

No.

[Olivia Mentor]

Which is worse. So is it is a tuna sandwich.

[Becca Freeman]

Exploding in the back of your Uber if it had actually like fully come apart? Like, is that not worse? At least food poisoning is private.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's unless you had food poisoning in the Uber.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, yeah, that's true.

[Olivia Mentor]

And so it could be worse.

[Becca Freeman]

Could be worse.

[Olivia Mentor]

But it is traumatizing. Do you think this would change your ordering food as you exit laguardia situation again or do you feel.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, absolutely. I learned a lesson. I around and I found out.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, I'm glad you're here with us.

[Becca Freeman]

Thank you. Tan and humble.

[Olivia Mentor]

Not that your life was ever in danger or something, but, you know.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, do you below?

[Olivia Mentor]

I don't.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, then let's take an ad break and let's get to this interview.

[Olivia Mentor]

This episode is sponsored by Better Help. Therapy is such an important part of my life, but I was just talking to some friends over the weekend about how much my view on therapy has really shifted and evolved over the years. When I was growing up, my perception of going to therapy was very much that. It was a thing reserved for people who have like, capital P problems. And now I really understand that therapy is truly for anyone who wants to develop a better sense of self or better boundaries. And these are things that I think every single one of us could benefit from, no matter what we have or have not been through.

[Becca Freeman]

BetterHelp has over 10 years of experience matching people with the right therapist from their diverse network of more than 30,000 licensed therapists with a wide range of specialties. BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient, serving over 5 million people worldwide. Easily switch therapists anytime at no extra cost.

[Olivia Mentor]

Although my own views on therapy have evolved over the years. I think it's worth mentioning that in some spaces there really is still a stigma when it comes to going to therapy. And in fact, one recent survey found that 26% of Americans who participated said they have avoided seeking mental health support due to fear of judgment. So this Mental Health Awareness Month, let's encourage everyone to take care of their well being and break the stigma. The world is better when people are healthy and happy and therapy has certainly made me healthier and happier. We're all better with help. Visit betterhelp.com batonpaper to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com badonpaper.

[Becca Freeman]

We are so excited to have Jessica Goodman with us. She is the New York Times and USA Today best selling author of the Meadowbrook Murders, the Counselors, the Legacies, They'll Never Catch Us and They Wish They Were Us. She's a former op ed editor at Cosmopolitan magazine and her work has been featured in Marie Claire, Entertainment Weekly, the Cut, and Glamour. Jessica, welcome.

[Jessica Goodman]

Thank you so much for having me. This is so exciting.

[Becca Freeman]

You are somebody that we know offline and we did this series of interviews a few years ago about how a book gets made. And now I feel like we're deep diving into more niche topics and we really wanted to talk to a YA author because I feel like there's a whole different world.

[Jessica Goodman]

It is and it isn't. So I'm really excited to talk to you guys and kind of dive into this world and also share how it's like really similar to writing for teens than it is for writing for adults, I think. But I'm interested to hear all of your questions and I have so many thoughts.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, we're also looking forward to your answers. But to start, like, what is your relationship with YA as a reader? Have you always been a big reader of ya and is that what made you choose to write in ya or was it another reason?

[Jessica Goodman]

I was one of those kids who grew up reading constantly. Like I was reading books in the car, in the bathtub, on the bus, like before bed, constantly. Like whenever I could, I would. And I grew up in the 90s when ya was like kind of its own thing, but not really. Like, I think the Outsiders was probably the first like real young adult book that came about that people really paid attention to. Go ask Alice. Like, I don't know if you guys are familiar with that book. I devoured those, of course. And then in my later teens it was like the Hunger Games and Twilight and Princess Diaries, like, those kinds of books were coming out. I loved them all. I didn't really think of them as specifically young adult. I just thought of them as books about people my age dealing with problems that I was dealing with and relationships that I was dealing with, and I loved them. And when I went to college, I wasn't really that concerned with, like, whatever I was reading for fun. I was reading a lot for, you know, school. Obviously, I was a creative writing major, but I took a young adult writing class in college. And the project that you had to come out of that class with was 50 pages of a novel. Of a young adult novel. And we read really incredible books in that class and kind of, like, got an idea of, like, what a young adult book looked like in, like, the 2010s. And the project that I ended class with was the first 50 pages of what would become my first novel, they Wish They Were Us. It was like, oh, wow. Yes. I mean, it was like a crazy, terrible version that was, like, so different than what ended up being published. But it was like, the same idea, the same characters, like, the same general story and the same general structure. And that was obviously an incredibly formative experience for me to not only, like, have some experience and exercises like writing in that tone and that voice for that audience, but just also, like, reading incredible books during that time. And I feel like the late 2010s is when the genre really, like, popped off, or I should call it a market. It's really a market, not a genre. Like, when the adult market just, like, popped off and you had, like, incredible success stories. Like, you had Victoria Aviard coming out, leigh Bardugo, Karen McManus, Nick Stone, like, Sabaa Tahir, like, all of these incredible elaart. Like, I could name a million authors that kind of, like, boomed in this era and have continued to be, like, incredibly successful bestsellers, not only in the publishing industry, but also, like, TV and film. Like, Gail Forman's if I Stay was a huge book that then turned into a film. And you just had all of these really incredible success stories. And so when I started thinking about publishing fiction, I went back to this idea that I had started in college, and I was like, I was always really excited about this idea, and I was like, let's do this. Let's turn this into a book. And so when I started that in earnest, I really began reading more in the market to see, like, where my book would fit in. And that's when I started reading a lot of Karen McManus and Kara Thomas, who are two incredible young adult thriller writers. I write young adult thrillers and I tried to just deep myself in what was being published at the time and like, what they sounded like, what they looked like, what the covers were like, what was doing well. And it was really fun. And so I didn't really like looking back, like, I didn't really think much about what I was doing. It was just kind of like intuitive. It was like, this is the voice that I'm writing. I knew I wanted to write about teenagers because I always felt really connected to, like, those emotions that I experienced when I was a teenager. And I didn't even really like, consider writing for adults at that point my life. And so that's a really long winded answer to your question. But I just felt called to speak to teenagers. And, you know, I was one of those kids that always. Or like one of those adults actually in my early 20s that always felt like my, like, you know, age that I was in my soul was 16. I don't know if I feel that anymore now that I've like, grown up a little bit. But in my late 20s, I definitely still felt like a 16 year old. And so that. That was the voice that I wanted to channel for my entree into the publishing world.

[Becca Freeman]

No, that totally makes sense, having started especially in college, where it's like, okay, I'm an expert on being a teen, but I'm a novice at being an adult. Yeah. And so, you know, who am I to speak for the adult experience versus, you know, you're already out of high school. You're like, ooh, I know how this goes. So I totally get that.

[Jessica Goodman]

Yes, yes.

[Becca Freeman]

So your first book, they Wish They Were Us, came out in 2020, and you just told us that you started writing it when you were in college, so years beforehand. And my perception from the as a reader is that this market has changed a ton recently. And I'm curious if you agree and maybe if so, if you can talk us through some of how the genre has changed since you started writing in it, but more specifically publishing in it.

[Jessica Goodman]

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I think publishing in general has changed a lot since 2020. Not just in the young adult market, like you both probably know, just from covering the industry, speaking to authors, writing your own books, like, it's gotten a little cuckoo banane. And I think that a lot of that is obviously the pandemic kind of changed everything in terms of live events, marketing, advertising, like a kind of everything got thrown up in the air. And as someone who was publishing my first book in 2020, like they wish they Were Us came out in August. And you know, what a world of difference from August 2019 to August 2020. And even from then to now, things have changed so much too. The biggest difference that I experienced then was like the in person events were a no go. No one was touring, no one was doing any events. I had a couple digital events that were really fun and exciting. And at the time, everyone was, isn't this great? You could do events from anywhere. Like we're never going to do in person events ever anymore. And obviously that's changed as well. You know, I just published my fifth book in February and I went on like a five city tour and it was so exciting. The first one that I've been able to do. And so that was amazing. But one of the biggest changes, I think is in the past year, I guess the popularity of Romantasy has kind of taken over. Not just adult, but definitely young adult. And I think you kind of see like every couple years there's like one specific genre, not just. Again, not just in young adult. Everywhere that takes over. Like when I started publishing or writing my book, like thrillers about girls, thrillers about women with the name Girl in the title, like, that was the hot thing. That was really big. And then, you know, there was like a literary fiction rise as well, which has been, I think, continuing in a lot of ways. And a lot of that was seen in young adult too. There was a big kind of thriller Boon with Karen McManus and Holly Jackson. And then, you know, sci fi fantasy has always been huge as well. And like, just. And even within that, like Dystopian has had a moment like that was kind of because of the Hunger Games, and now it's all about Romantasy. And so what I've learned, like, in publishing is that I think a lot of folks, like, try to chase these trends and publish according to the trends. That has never been appealing to me because I think if you're like trying to write something that you're not really that interested in or that you're not really like excelling in, it's gonna show in the work. So I have no interest in, like writing Romantasy. I'm thrilled for all the authors that are seeing incredible success there. But yeah, so that's definitely like, what the market is excited about, but just like, in terms of content. But also there's like all this, like, new stuff that's popping up right now. Like, have you guys been in conversation, like seen on threads or anything? People talking about sprayed edges?

[Becca Freeman]

Yes. I mean, I feel like all the special editions have become huge.

[Jessica Goodman]

Yes. Olivia, you're laughing. Do you, do you have thoughts?

[Olivia Mentor]

No, I'm just. I was just thinking about how when 4th Wing came out and they did the sprayed edges, I just thought, like, I think that is a big reason why it was as big as it was like it had that first push. And so to see. I don't know if that's the first book that did sprayed edges, but that's the first one I can think of. And now to see it like being the thing that it is is so funny to me. But is the conversation something other than just its popularity? Is there like controversy or something behind it?

[Jessica Goodman]

I don't think there's controversy, but I definitely think it started as like a fantasy element. And I think that is because fantasy readers are so enthusiastic and so ardently excited about whatever is coming out that is in their wheelhouse, that they are like excited about collector's editions and special editions and in a lot of other genres, that's just like the appetite isn't really there for it. And so you're starting to see, see marketers and publishers trying to like, find ways in to get people excited and like using sprayed edges as a way to do that for all sorts of different genres. Like Alex Aster's Summer in the City, that's like a romance adult that came out. She's an incredible fantasy author in the young adult space. This was her first romance book in the adult space. And I think that had like four or five or six or something special editions, all with different sprayed edges.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, wow.

[Jessica Goodman]

Yes. Like, and they were beautiful and had like different designs on them and they were gorgeous. And I think that book has done really well on the market. And, you know, it's interesting to see what publishers are trying to do to get people excited about books, like the physical hard copies of books. And I think a big reason for that is that a lot of the traditional ways that we have seen books be publicized, marketed and advertised are going away. Like, I have a background in journalism. Before I was an author, I was an editor of Cosmopolitan magazine and Entertainment Weekly. And at both publications, like, I had some hand in the publishing coverage, like covering the publishing industry and books. And even when I was a full time editor, there were way more opportunities to get books in magazines. And so I think now there are just fewer places that are doing book publicity for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with the publishing industry. And I say that because in the young adult market, there are even fewer. There's always been a lack of coverage from publications who are interested in covering young adult novels, but it's been way decimated. And all of the publications that used to be geared towards teens, like Seventeen magazine or Teen Vogue, I mean, Teen Vogue, they're both still around, but they're just not as robust. Their teams aren't as large. And so I think there's just like, not as many opportunities. And I think that's because a lot of teenagers are spending their time not in magazines and digital outlets, but mostly like on TikTok, right, and YouTube. And so the creators there have kind of taken over that space that used to be reserved for more traditional media. And so making inroads with influencers and bookstagrammers and content creators is just a. It's a different kind of industry, basically.

[Becca Freeman]

I want to talk more about the split between adult readers versus teen readers in the YA genre. So this is all anecdotal, but I feel like for me, I used to read a lot more YA reader romance. And I can't say if this is because I got older and so I started to like, even I was reading them into my 30s and I started to age out of them or get sick of them, but I was reading a lot of YA romance because that was one of the only places where romance existed as the A plot before the adult contemporary romance genre really started kind of becoming its own thing in, let's say, 2018, 2019, with like Jasmine Guillory and Helen Hoang and Sally Thorne and all of these writers kind of restarting that genre as its own thing. But I'm noticing that, you know, even as we've seen you were saying, like, the thrillers with Girl in the title or Woman in the title have been such a huge trend over the past decade or so in the adult market. But you still see, like the YA mystery and thriller genre alive and well. Like, I'm thinking of Karen McManus, who you mentioned, or Jennifer Lynn Barnes with the Inheritance game series. And you obviously, even though there are, like, adult counterparts, do you have a strong sense of, like, the split of your readers between adults and teens?

[Jessica Goodman]

That's a really good question. I don't know if I have a specific sense, but I will say that, like my DMs or like the folks who come and try to chat with me about my books, it's definitely a split and maybe even more adults sometimes at the events that I'VE done. It's usually more adults. And that's often, I think because like who's going to like if you're a teenager and you're going to an event, like you often have to get your parents to go with you. And it's totally. Sometimes on a school night it's kind of like hard to go. Like something I talk about with my editor and my publishing team is always like crossover appeal. Like we hope that my books have crossover appeal and I think that they can see in their market research that they do that there is crossover appeal. But it's also like interesting. I mean, who's buying a hardcover young adult book? It's like Those books are $20. Like that is a lot to ask for a teenager to spend of their own money. And so I think you're seeing a lot like a lot of teens are probably more interested in like paperback books which is also why you're seeing more front lead books like coming out in paperback either at the same time as hardcover or just paperback. Which is also something you see in adult romance sometimes. So it's interesting. I mean as an adult, like yeah, I think I read a lot of young adults books obviously. And sometimes it's hard to tell like if I'm reading them just because like I love them and it's fun or because it's also part of my job to stay abreast of what's going on or on blurbing books. But it is definitely, I think, intended to be crossover. And also like teenagers read up is traditionally what we talk about. Like when I was 16 and 17, like I was reading adult books for sure. I'm sure you guys were too. And you know, I wouldn't be like my think my books are marketed like 14 to 18 year olds and like I wouldn't be surprised if I have some like mature 12 and 13 year olds reading my books as well.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I think the other thing about your books and about kind of YA thrillers in general is so I am a scaredy cat thriller reader, so I don't like anything that's too violent, that's too scary. And so I think that I generally enjoy a YA thriller because there's almost like a limit on how scary it can be. And I wanna loop back to that to hear if that actually is true if your publisher like puts constraints on it. But I feel like, you know, if a YA book gets too dark, they're just gonna market it as adult from like the POV of a teen character versus like I feel pretty Safe in the YA market that if I'm gonna read a thriller, it's not going to traumatize me that I can't sleep for a week. So it's like, still has that thriller pacing. It still has the fun who. But it isn't as dark as some of the thrillers that Olivia can handle that I can't.

[Jessica Goodman]

I totally agree with you. And I do think that a lot of young adult thrillers are, like, what I like to call, like, cozy. Like, if you read my books, there's very little gore and blood and guts and all of that. And I too, am like, a bit of a scaredy cat. I've read some Grady Hendrix recently, who's incredible. But there have been some scenes where I'm like, reading through my fingers, you know, like, with, like, I can't. It's hard to take in. It's interesting, right? Because, like, Hunger Games is brutal. Like, violent and brutal and, like, scary as hell. And so many young adult fantasy books are the same, like, where there's death and gore and horrible things happen, like sexual assault, like, incredibly terrible things. But as soon as you get into, like, a more contemporary space where you're talking about grounded stories that are real life, I do think that we want to be cognizant of, like, what the intended audience is consuming. At least that's how I feel. There have been very few moments where my publisher and my editor have been like, you need to pull back on this for X reason. Like, the main feedback I've gotten in that space is like, can we please limit the amount of, like, fucks we're saying? Or, like, can we limit, like, the cursing here? And usually it's because, like, so much cursing is, like, a little bit lazy. Even though that is how teens, especially teen voice speak. That's, like, the main piece of feedback that I've gotten.

[Becca Freeman]

What about sex and drug use? Is that something that there are limits on in the YA genre? Or kind of, like, rules of thumb on? Or is it now pretty open those topics in YA books?

[Jessica Goodman]

Okay, so I will say that I have had some feedback that's like, maybe we wanna fade to black here. Like, maybe we wanna pull back a little bit. It's for a variety of reasons. I think one of the reasons is that just in terms of, like, being cognizant of, like, who the gatekeepers are in young adult. And so a lot of that is, like, teachers and librarians and, like, what they feel is appropriate for teenagers to read. That being said, of course we can't Talk about this with this conversation without talking about book banning and like how many books that are totally appropriate for teenagers and all kids have been taken out of schools by for variety of reasons related to race, sexuality, sexual assault, like violence, of course. But you know, I am also like a CIS het white woman who writes mostly about like cishet white girls. And you know, to my knowledge, like my books have not been like, you know, universally banned in a lot of places. That's kind of BS when you think about all the other books that have been banned and are in like the thriller space as well, but perhaps that they star like an LGBTQ character or like a black character. And a lot of, you know, gatekeepers have decided that those books aren't appropriate for teenagers, even though, like a book like mine might be. And like, that is incredibly unfair. And like a lot of authors and you know, folks in this space are doing a lot to hopefully like, fight back against these bans. But that being said, it's like, it's interesting when you talk to different authors about like, what they feel comfortable taking out versus what they want to keep in terms of their own, like, art or like artistic expression. And I have definitely looked at my stories and said, like, in my first book, they wish they were us. Like, there's a scene where the main character Jill talks about like masturbating and like how learning how to masturbate was like an informative experience for her. And like she, you know, would prefer it to like being with her boyfriend at sometimes. And like, I think there was a conversation about if we wanted to keep that in. And I was like, I really want to keep that in because I think it's like, that's like a conversation that I think many 17 year old girls like have with themselves. And like, I think it would be important to like have that feel represented in this specific story for this reason. And so there have been things like that that there's always a conversation. But I will say, like, in my experience, it's a conversation. It's not like you have to do this. Like you can't do that.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's super interesting because you do want to speak to things that are in the world of teens, you know, like, and that might not be comfortable for the librarians to know or what. Like, this is what teen girls are talking about, this is what they're thinking about. This is what's important to them, this is what's on their mind. So, you know, it might not be comfortable for their parents to know that or whatever. But you don't want to infantilize them and be like, oh, obviously this is not. This is not on your radar. So it's interesting. It must be a very difficult line to walk sometimes that I hadn't thought about. Yeah.

[Jessica Goodman]

And a lot of my books feature, like, popular kids who are, like, often partying, like, doing drugs and drinking alcohol. And I remember in the beginning of my career, like, I would read the Goodreads reviews. I don't do it anymore. But, like, I remember specifically seeing, like, Goodreads reviews from seemingly older people being, like, it's so, like, horrible that. That all of her characters are drinking and doing drugs. Like, they should be setting better examples. And I take umbrage with that because I don't know that, like, these characters need to be examples of, like, how to live. Like, I don't think that's necessarily what fiction is about. Right. Especially young adult fiction. I don't know if it's like, here's how you should be a good person. It's more, to me about, like, here's the way that some people live. Like, here is an experience that you might be interested in reading about and learning about. And, like, perhaps there is a different kind of, like, moral or, like, point of the story. But, like, I don't think that these books need to be, like, shining examples of what a perfect teenager looks like. And a perfect teenager can drink and do drugs and learn about all that stuff, too. So my books still feature kids partying. And I think that's something that I'm interested in writing about. And I think that there are formative experiences that take place during those events that need to be talked about.

[Becca Freeman]

It's so interesting that you bring that up about maintaining the authenticity of the teen experience so that teens relate and see themselves in it. I feel like one thing that would feel super intimidating to me about the genre is just with the pace of technology and how rapidly it's evolving. It's like changing the experience of being a teen from how it was when you or I were teenagers. And I'm curious how you think about including social media and technology in your book. And, like, I don't know, like, do you have Teen Beta readers? Like, how do you keep it authentic to the experience of being a teen when the experience of being a teen is so different than when you were a teenager?

[Jessica Goodman]

Okay, so this is something I think about all the time. My main goal when I'm writing a young adult book is to have it feel like it could exist in any time period. So I'M not using hyper specific slang that is like, of the moment or like, sets you exactly in 2025 or 2022. And I'm really trying not to name social media platforms. I'm sure that I have in some of my books, but. And like, maybe Snapchat was like, you know, popular in 2020 in one of my books. But, like, I don't. I, like, I think that it's all changing. Like, who knows if Snapchat will be like, if Snapchat will be around in five years or 10 years. And like, I hope my books can, like, stand the test of time for that. So that's kind of like where I stand on, like, the hyper specific, like, tech stuff and like, you know, slang stuff.

[Becca Freeman]

Sorry, can I ask a clarifying question? Are you just staying away from naming the platform? So they're still using forms of technology and you're just using words like, you know, I posted this, I got this message.

[Jessica Goodman]

Okay, that's exactly right.

[Becca Freeman]

It's not like they're like Luddite teens that they're just like, not on their phones.

[Jessica Goodman]

They're not those very cool Luddite teens that you see in the New York Times talking about how they don't have smartphones. No. Yes, that's exactly right. It's like, oh, she posted this photo. Or like, I saw this on the messaging app. Or like, in the Meadowbrook Murders, which I just released in February. It's a board. It's set at a boarding school. And it's like a, you know, super elite boarding school where, like, one of the characters creates, like, a secret messaging app that they all use and she kind of like, hacks it together. So that's how I got around that. But yeah, the reason for that is, like, I hope that these books feel timeless and that they could, you know, you could read them in 10 years and they would make sense. And I think that you see that, like, some of the most popular young adult books are the ones that were released, you know, many years ago. Like, We Were Liars by E. Lockhart is still, like, wildly popular. And the Outsiders is still, still incredibly popular and is like, off and on the bestseller list. And that book came out in, like the 60s, I think, or the 70s. And so that's kind of how I try to get around, like, the hyper specifics. But I think that, like, the emotions and the feelings and the anxieties of being a teenager are the same. Like, we're all still concerned with we. I say we. Like I'm a teenager, but like, you know, teenagers are still concerned with, like, being left out and like, having an unrequited crush. Fighting with your parents, not sure what the next chapter of your life is going to look like after graduation. Falling out with a best friend that you've had your entire life, like, struggling with your identity, fighting with your siblings. Like, these really, like, intense experiences that are associated with coming of age. I think those are the same, but the way that they look and like, the way that they're dressed up now are different. And so, yes, there are teenagers that I try to, like, talk to and learn about their life and see what it looks like for them. And I spend a lot of time, like, lurking on TikTok. Yeah, like, my second book, they'll Never Catch Us, is about cross country runners and we're actually adapting that into a TV series for Netflix. And so I'm working on that right now. And like, over the past few months, I've spent a lot of time on high school cross country TikTok, which is like the most specific. Like such a hybrid, such a specific little niche area that, like, I'm learning so much about that. You know, I obviously, I did research for the book when I wrote it, but I'm doing more research now. And it's really fun to, like, see the language that they use, which is not specific to this time. It's specific to that, you know, subculture, basically. So I really try to stay rooted in the emotions and the feelings and the super relatable universal experience of being 16 and not knowing what your life is going to look like, or being 17 and thinking that you have everything figured out and your parents are totally wrong and then something happens and makes you realize, oh, shit, I'm just a kid. So that, I think is like a universal experience.

[Olivia Mentor]

So you mentioned earlier Alex Aster, right. Who just released her. I guess it's an adult romance, right? Her first adult romance. I was thinking about this outline and I was like, oh, I'd be curious if she'd ever want to write adult. And then I was like, actually, maybe the more interesting question is how you feel about that question. Like, is it something you thought? Because I imagine that, like, it is a little bit annoying because it's like, this is what I do, this is my career. Like, I'm successful at it. I have this huge audience of both adults and young adults. And then to be like, well, would you ever, you know, do this other thing that it's not like a next level, But I imagine maybe it could feel that way. Sometimes. So how do you feel about that question?

[Jessica Goodman]

The answer is twofold. Like, I will answer the question, which is yes. Like, I do want to write for adults. And I, like, I have ideas. I don't think it's that different. Like, writing is writing to me in a lot of ways. But in terms about that question in general, I think when a lot of people ask that question, they do mean when are you going to graduate? Like, when are you going, like, are you going to level up? And in some condescending ways, are you good enough to write for adults? And I think a lot of people think that writing for teenagers is like the easy way out.

[Becca Freeman]

Which is ironic because if you look at these like hyper best selling series and I don't know where we classify Fourth Wing, but you know, if you think about like Harry Potter, the Hunger Games, Twilight, like these huge watershed book moments that are both the best selling and also like the most enduring cultural moments around books, like many of them are rooted in YA versus adult.

[Jessica Goodman]

Yeah. And I think the reason for that is because when you're 16 or like 15 and you're reading a book and you're like, oh my God, I am obsessed with this. This book is going to get me to like reading. You remember that your entire life.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Also you have more time for fandom when you're a teen.

[Jessica Goodman]

Exactly. Like Lord of the Rings. Like, I guarantee you that like most of the people that came to that book came to it as a young person and it stayed with them. I mean, Harry Potter of course, is the prime example of that too. And so I think that writing for teens is really hard for all of the reasons that you talked about. Trying to get into a mindset of an age demo that you're not necessarily in anymore. You're kind of far away from. The hormones are all gone. And also teen readers are really brutally honest and will tell you if you're messing it up and you're not getting their experience right, which is very humbling to hear that. And also I was on, on a panel a couple weeks ago with Nic Stone, who is an incredible author who has written Middle Grade and Young Adult. Dear Martin is her most famous series and she is writing an adult thriller that's coming out this year or next year. It sounds wonderful. But she was saying that most of her young adult books are 40,000 words. That is really freaking short. Mine are 75 to 90,000. Like I don't know if you guys remember how long your books were.

[Becca Freeman]

90,000.

[Jessica Goodman]

Yeah. And so 40,000 words is short. And I say that to say that the fact that she's able to pack an impactful story with so many shades of character development, plot development, wisdom about the world in 40,000 words is incredible and shows the kind of genius that some of these children's authors, like young adult is part of children's market, children's authors have in order to say so much with so little and, and do that in a way that grabs kids attention and holds it and hopefully ignites a love of reading and learning. And I think that is like an, like I can't do that like in 40,000 words. That's like an incredibly powerful skill.

[Becca Freeman]

That's absolutely a superpower like that. I think it could be really interesting to see if as many of these YA authors cross over. Like I know Rainbow Rowell had slow dance last year. Kasie west is making her adult debut later this year. I wonder if it will almost be a secret superpower because we've been talking a lot on the podcast about how we're noticing a trend with books getting shorter. Just because I think people's attention spans are shorter. And so, you know, I've seen a few books like our book club pick this month is Audition by Katie kitamura which is 208 pages. I just read another book that comes out later this summer that's also 208 pages. Like really tight books. And so I wonder if Nick, coming over from ya we're, she's used to being constrained to 40,000 words and now maybe gives herself a little more space to do 50 or 60. But it's still much tighter than my 90,000 word book. If that actually serves her well because of the shrinking attention spans.

[Jessica Goodman]

Yeah, I'll be interested to see that as well. I know that, I mean, and young adult has a reputation of being super fast paced because you are trying to hold young people's attention like really quickly. Like things have to happen every chapter. There's like not a lot of room for just like blathering on. And that is the note that I get the most is like cut, cut. And it's great. And so I think that when young adult authors do move up into the adult market, they do have this kind of superpower of being really readable. Right. And making the pages turn really quickly. Everything is really fast paced. I think you've seen that with a lot of young adult authors who've made that crossover. Kara Thomas is another one. Like Liz Lawson has an adult thriller that's coming out next year. It's interesting. Like I Think we'll see. But the short book trend is definitely a thing. Like, did you guys read Sandwich? That came out last summer? Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, no, I haven't. I read her first book, We All Want Impossible Things, which is also very short.

[Jessica Goodman]

Yeah. Sandwich has got to be like 200 pages or something. And I think it's short. Yeah. And it's wonderful. And like, I love those kinds of books too. And my husband is in a book club with all men and they read like all New York based nonfiction basically. And their mandate is like short, like 250 kind of. That's just. People are interested in that kind of content right now. That being said, like, Victoria Aviart is another YA author who's making the crossover into adult fantasy from young adult fantasy. She's enormous. She's written, you know, the Realm Breaker series, the Red Queen series, and she's been posting on Instagram that like, her new adult book is like 200,000 words and they're like, you know, cutting it, like. But that's like, I think in the fantasy market, like, there is appetite for that. Right. You need. You're interested in that world, building experience so some authors can pull it off for sure.

[Becca Freeman]

So we've been talking pretty generally up until now, but I'm curious if you can tell us the pitch for your latest book, the Meadowbrook Murders.

[Jessica Goodman]

Oh, yeah, of course. Meadowbrook Murders is a young adult dark academia book set at an elite boarding school. And it's the beginning of the school year and our main character wakes up on her first day of senior week and she learns that her best friend has been murdered in the suite that they share together in the dorm room. And she obviously wants to find out who did this, what happened to her best friend. And as she starts to uncover secrets about her friend, she teams up with the editor in chief of the school newspaper who wants to solve the murder for her own reasons that are, you know, about solving the murder in order to get some notoriety in the school paper. But Amy, our main character, soon becomes a suspect, and so she, she has to solve the murder while also proving that she didn't do it. Ooh, it's not that scary, Becca, I promise.

[Becca Freeman]

No, I know, and I love a prep school murder specifically. And this is somewhat of a return for you because your debut was also a prep school murder mystery. And I'm curious, like, were you excited to revisit this now as a more established author, as you know, having five books under your belt, or did that feel like pressure?

[Jessica Goodman]

A little bit of Both. But I will say that I think everyone's like, oh, once you've written one, you know how to write a book. Oh, you've written five. Of course you could do this in your sleep. It's hard every time. Every book is a shit show. Like, I'm working on my sixth book right now, and I just turned in my fourth draft, and I don't think we realized what the book was about or what the plot was until this draft. It never gets easier, and I keep waiting for it to feel easy, and I just. I don't think it ever will. I think that's just not how it is. I mean, like, do you guys find it easy now that you're on your next books?

[Becca Freeman]

I have found my second book incredibly challenging. I hope that the third book feels lighter. And I. I think I came into the second book expecting that. Like, I'd worked out a lot of the kinks. I'd figured out a lot of the things that were tripping me up. Like, I. I remember in my first book, I changed the tense of it so many times. Like, should it be first person, third person? Should it be past tense, present tense? And having certainty in that. Coming into this, I was like, well, I won't waffle on this. And it's like, well, I've waffled on different things. And so I think I had a certain amount of hubris that it would be easier. And going into the third book, I'm not necessarily expecting that, but I also hope that I've learned some things about giving myself grace that will make the third book emotionally feel different than my second book has. I don't know.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I think it only gets easier in the sense that when you reach a point where you're like, I have no idea what I'm doing or how to fix this, you at least have some track record where you're like, oh, I felt like this before, and somehow I came out the other side. I don't think, like, how you fix it is ever really the same. But at least you're like, well, this isn't the first time I felt this way, and I'll keep going somehow. That's comforting. At least it doesn't make it easy, though.

[Jessica Goodman]

That's so funny. I never remember that. I'm like, I'm always like. I'm always like, it's over. My whole. I'm never gonna.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'll tell you, I'll be like, this is your sixth book. Like, you're doing great.

[Becca Freeman]

She'll be your Amy Poehler. In the audience at Mean girls. Like, you're doing amazing, sweetie.

[Jessica Goodman]

I need that texting text incoming. I mean, it's just. It's always a grind. And you're. I mean, you're right, Becca. It's. Every book provides you, like, a new way to humble yourself, where you're like, oh, the tenses are. Are worked out, but this character development is garbage. And for me, it's always plot, which is so horrible because it's a thriller. And so everyone's like, you must be a great plotter. And I'm like, my girl, no, absolutely not. Every plot is a mess. I never know what's happening. The first draft of this book that I'm working on right now, my editor was like, I think more things need to happen.

[Becca Freeman]

Just any of them. Anything. Yeah.

[Jessica Goodman]

And the Meadowbrook Murders. Halfway through the edits, I remember my editor was like, like, so we need, like, a red herring, like. And I was like, right, of course. Yes. That's how thrillers are. You want to guess along the way who did it? And misdirection. And I was like, oh, my God, I don't know anything.

[Becca Freeman]

Jaz. This has been such a fun conversation. I feel like I learned so much, and I am thinking about YA fiction differently, and it also makes me want to go read a YA thriller. But can you tell the listeners, well, first of all, remind us of the name of your most recent book and then tell us where we can find you on the Internet to keep up with you.

[Jessica Goodman]

Yes, my most recent book is the Meadowbrook Murders, and I am on Instagram essicagoodman, and that's where you can find me.

[Becca Freeman]

Are you on TikTok or you're just lurking on TikTok?

[Jessica Goodman]

I am so lurky.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Jessica Goodman]

Never posted a single talk. Perhaps one of you can show me how.

[Olivia Mentor]

No, I try.

[Jessica Goodman]

Couldn't be me. I have some drafts.

[Olivia Mentor]

Never a while, but I just stay where you are. I think lurking is the place to be since you have to be on it for your job.

[Jessica Goodman]

Yeah, yeah. It's tough because I see all these authors doing, like, amazing content, and I'm like, you look fabulous. And then I'm like, I could not do that.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's. We get it.

[Jessica Goodman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

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[Olivia Mentor]

I've already talked here about how much I loved the short story classes with Joyce Carol Oates on Masterclass. There is something about listening to a true legend talk about craft that is just awe inspiring and I felt so excited to go right after watching the lesson. Our listeners always get great discounts on Masterclass of at least 15% off any annual [e-mail] BoP see MasterClass's latest deal at least 15% [e-mail] BoP.

[Jessica Goodman]

All right.

[Becca Freeman]

Olivia, let's transition into some n matter. What are you obsessed with?

[Olivia Mentor]

I am obsessed with interviews from the author Ocean Vuong. I might have mispronounced that. Have you read any of his books or have you been seeing coverage of his latest book which is called the Emperor of Gladness?

[Becca Freeman]

I believe I have been seeing this book make the rounds. I have also heard nothing but fantastic things about his debut on Earth. We are briefly gorgeous. I am very intrigued, but I have not made it to any of this person's books yet.

[Olivia Mentor]

I haven't either and I've heard of them of course, but for some reason maybe the covers or something just didn't appeal to me or I don't know, I haven't picked them up. But I've been listening and seeing a lot of his interviews. One with Oprah, I think. Cause his latest book is Oprah's Book Club pick this month. And it's very hard to describe the way he speaks because. So I listened to an interview, I think it's on poured over the Barnes and Noble podcast with him. And at first I was. This is a little bit, like, not corny, but it's just. It's very, like, intellectual. It's very, like, scholarly. But then I kept listening and I was just so deeply fascinated by this person. And in the clips with Oprah, he at one point is crying about, like, what writing means to him, and he's so emotional about it. And I don't know, it sounds like, as I describe it, it could be cheesy. But for some reason it just feels so authentic and so interesting and moving and I don't know, I just. I can't stop watching interviews. Like, I just. I don't know how to describe it other than it's different than I've heard anyone speak before, sort of. But I'm really excited to read his books now.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, wow. Please let me know how it is. I am running a tight ship, TBR wise. But this is something that I'm very curious about.

[Olivia Mentor]

It'll be interesting. Like, going in reverse. I usually read and then listen interviews. So anyway, what are you obsessed with right now?

[Becca Freeman]

So I can't believe I haven't talked about this. I had to control F in our outline document because I was like, have I talked about this? I must have. I am obsessed with these sneakers that I bought a few months ago. They're the Onitsuka Tiger Mexico 66 sneakers. Have you heard of these?

[Olivia Mentor]

I haven't. That's just a cool name. It just sounds very cool.

[Becca Freeman]

So when I was going to Paris a couple of months ago, I was very obsessed with finding the right walking shoes because on a previous trip to Europe, I'd really screwed up and my feet hurt the whole time. And I was talking about it in my newsletter and Sarah from my sister made me buy it. Who is one of my most consistent recommenders. Like, no joke, I'm currently wearing a bra she recommended, a dress she recommended. Like, she is a very consistent recommender for me, recommended these sneakers. And it was too close to my trip to get them in time, but I ordered them anyway. And I think they stopped selling them in the United States. So you have to get them on, like, a secondhand market. Like, I got them on Goat, which is like a sneaker head marketplace. But they were brand new. Like, they're not Secondhand or anything. I am obsessed with these sneakers. So first of all, I've never been somebody who feels quite comfortable with like a dress sneaker combo. But for whatever reason these are super low profile. Like they're very thin sold and just like low profile sneakers. I feel like they look so cute with every dress, they're so low profile, but they are strangely comfortable right out of the box. Like I could walk 20,000 steps in them no problem without any break in. And then the other thing, and I hope I'm not misspeaking here, but I have read reviews on them from like the Strategist or other like wire cutter places like that. And I think they're designed that you can wear them with or without socks. And so sometimes I wear them without socks, which I think looks cute in general. But they don't chafe, they don't rub and they don't get smelly. So I've experienced no ill effects from that so far. They're like kind of a beigey off white with black stripes. They don't have too many other colors. But I'm like, do I need more of these like or is this just going to be like something that I keep buying and replacing as they wear out? Because in New York I wear out sneakers fairly quickly. But oh my God, these are like my new God tier sneaker.

[Olivia Mentor]

Wow. I just looked them up. They're very cute. I mean I am a very consistent Converse girl myself, but I found that Converse, the soles are getting thinner and it's very uncomfortable to walk long distances and then sometimes try these if you find the wrong pair. So maybe I'll try these. Yeah, they're very cute. I actually always wondered if that goat website is real. Yeah, you know, so it's good to know that it worked out. But those sound really cute. I mean they look really cute.

[Becca Freeman]

I think the challenge with those websites like Goat or stockx is the problem is that you can't fully return something. You can only exchange it for credit it. So you know, like you, if you get the wrong size or something, you can still swap it but you can't get your money back.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay, that's good to know.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I highly recommend them. I do not know what sorcery is in them but they are so thin and so low profile. But they are so comfortable.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, onto the reading front, what have you been reading?

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I got sucked into the latest book, Internet controversy drama. Have you heard about all this stuff around? Silver Elite by Danny Francisco.

[Olivia Mentor]

This was it on the New York Times. Bestseller list or something? Absolutely. Okay. I saw it there and I was like, what the heck is this? That's the only thing I know about it. Not that I was just, I'd never heard of it. And I was like, here it is.

[Becca Freeman]

So it's this new Romantasy book that came out at the beginning of May and it is written under a pen name. And the publisher said that it's a New York Times bestselling author. It's also somebody Canadian. And all of a sudden especially booktok is trying to unmask who the author is because I think for multiple reasons. One, because the publishers leaned pretty hard into this where it's like you're kind of like stirring the pot at this point. But second, I think there's a concern that it's like, are you writing under a pen name because it's somebody problematic? Like people are like, is this J.K. rowling? Which it obviously isn't because it's a Canadian author. There were a lot of theories that maybe it was L. Kennedy who writes, writes contemporary romance. I don't know. It's like there's a huge like conversation around it, drama around it. And so I got sucked in and it's being comped to Fourth Wing. And so I was like, I gotta try it. Olivia, this book is, I'm gonna be completely honest. This book is a blatant Fourth Wing ripoff. Like it's dystopian instead of fantasy. So it's in like, you know, a ruined post apocalyptic world instead of a fantasy world with, with dragons or fairies or whatever. And the main character's personality is different. Like she's kind of just a bitch as opposed to, you know, Violet being very frail and like, I don't know if I can do it but like it is almost a beat for beat ripoff of 4th Wing. Do I recommend? I have no idea. Did I stay up until 2:30 in the morning reading it? Yes. Like, I just love being sucked into this type of book.

[Olivia Mentor]

Did you like it as much as Fourth Wing?

[Becca Freeman]

No, I didn't like it as much as Fourth Wing because I thought the dragon part was very fun and interesting in Fourth Wing. And this one is much more militaristic. Like I guess they're kind of in a military in Fourth Wing, but it's like a magical military with dragons versus this is like the military. Like I'm not as into that aspect of it. And I was really into this book until the couple like actually gets together. And then I was kind of like. But I Like, ripped through it.

[Olivia Mentor]

All right, well done. A ringing endorsement, maybe, but it sounds like it was decent.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

And like, it was entertaining.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I was compulsively reading it. Don't make it your first stop on the romantasy train. But, like, if, like, me, you've kind of read all the other romantic and you're like, what's next? Like, not a bad option.

[Olivia Mentor]

So do you think it's L. Kennedy then?

[Becca Freeman]

I don't know. I don't know why. If it was L. Kennedy, she wouldn't just say, this is me. I get writing under a pen name that if you're somebody writing in contemporary romance, you might want to use a pen name so that there's not confusion for people expecting that they're gonna get like, a college hockey romance. And instead you get this, like, dystopian military romance or vice versa. People reading in that series and then wanting to check out the author's other books and then being like, this is not the same. So I. I get that, but I'm just like, why are they shielding their identity? Maybe it's just for the publicity of it. Because it's like, getting people like me to read it.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's an interesting strategy, I guess. It works. We're talking about it. We read it.

[Becca Freeman]

Right?

[Olivia Mentor]

New York Times bestseller. So I actually did Book of the Month. Just.

[Becca Freeman]

It was a book of the month this month too.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I think they did like a special edition or something. I just opened that email and. Yeah, that must have been it. Anyway, very interesting.

[Becca Freeman]

Tell me about you. What have you read?

[Olivia Mentor]

I read this book called all the Other Mothers Hate Me by Sarah Harmon. And I have this.

[Becca Freeman]

This is like in my. My sub pile of, like, there's my real TBR and then there's my, like, okay, but here's my shorter tbr.

[Olivia Mentor]

I don't know, but I think you would love this. I think you would. So.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I think it was pitched to me as a non scary thriller.

[Olivia Mentor]

Exactly. Yes.

[Becca Freeman]

Yes.

[Olivia Mentor]

And it is hilarious. Like, it is laugh out loud funny. So, so good. Okay. So I was actually sent this book. Jessica, actually, Jessica Goodman emailed me and was like, I can't remember if it was her Asian, her editor, or someone she knew. She was like, can I have them send you this book? Cause whatever. I don't know. And I was like, yeah, sure. Great. And so this is about this mom. Her name is Florence and she is. Is a. Has been pop star. She was in like, a girls group that got famous after she left the group. She has a 10 year old son. She lives in England, she's American, but she's grown up in England. And he is in this like sort of elite boarding, not boarding school, but this elite like British prep school world where all the mothers are like so posh and obnoxious and she is just an absolute mess of a human being, like so deeply unlikable, so deeply chaotic. And her son is like this nerdy like vegan, environmentally obsessed kid and she's just like chugging Red Bull at all times. And he has had a lot of issues with other kids and getting into fights and bullying. And one of those kids that he was getting into these fights with goes missing after a field trip that they're on. And he was his partner, her son was his partner at this field trip that his buddy, whatever. And so basically she begins to suspect that maybe her son had something to do with it and mystery ensues. But I loved this book, like I absolutely loved it. I was kind of just in a bad mood at some point and I was like, you know what? I want something funny. I want something where I can just be immersed in the mystery. And this just was it like I was guessing to the last page about what was going on. And it's just, I don't know, it's just different. And I think it's actually in production to be a show with the people who did the bear. Oh so. Which is also interesting. I just love this. I thought it was so, so great. Apparently it's a little bit divisive which I kind of get. But I thought it was wonderful and I think you'd like it.

[Becca Freeman]

You're really selling this to me. I'm really obsessed with the whole post fame experience of like you're a child actor, you're a pop star. What do you do after you just go be a normal person. So I'm obsessed with that. And then I mean you know that I. Most thrillers are too scary for me but I love something that has like the pace, the propulsiveness of a thriller. So like I loved First Lie Wins by Ashley Elsted, which to me was my platonic ideal of a non scary thriller. And the fact that you're saying that this is also funny, like I'm in.

[Olivia Mentor]

Funniest book I've read in so long. Yeah, I love this one.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, so if none of those appeal to you, we also have our May book club pick which is audition by Katie Kinemura which we're going to be talking about next week. And I'll tell you As a little surprise, we also are gonna have a bonus episode with Katie on Thursday. So we'll have the book club as usual on bonus episode on Thursday to talk to her about this book. The book is about a woman who is an actress, well regarded actress who's doing a play. And in the first scene of the book, she is at a lunch with this much, much younger man. And the whole book kind of surrounds who are they to each other. The book is 208 pages. I found it incredibly propulsive. I wanted to know what was gonna happen next. I found it incredibly thought provoking and beautiful and I cannot wait to discuss this with you and then also to talk to Katie.

[Olivia Mentor]

I just started this and I can't stop reading it. Like I. I was falling asleep, like trying. I was like, oh, I need to sleep but I wanna read the next chapter but I need to sleep. So I'm loving it so far part.

[Becca Freeman]

So join us for that. You can also join us in the Facebook group to discuss anything here, anything in general, for the most part, mostly books. You can also join us in the Geneva group, which is like a slack group for not work that has different rooms for different genres of books or different topics. Like there's one for cooking, there's different rooms for TV shows, there's a BOP Swifties room and then there's also rooms for different geographic locations. So if you want to join or create a book club, that would be a great place to go. We're on Instagram @BatonPaper podcast. I am on Instagram ecamfreeman and my.

[Olivia Mentor]

Newsletter [e-mail] I'm Olivia Mentor on Instagram and substack.

[Becca Freeman]

See you next week.

[Olivia Mentor]

Bye.