232. Baking it Down - Jury Duty

Summary

Baking It Down with Sugar Cookie Marketing 🍪

Episode 232: Jury Duty

Hosts: Heather & Corrie Miracle
Date: October 14, 2025

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Overview

This episode takes a humorous and insightful look at Corrie's recent experience serving on a criminal jury, and masterfully relates it back to the world of cottage baking businesses. Heather and Corrie break down the intricacies of jury duty—covering everything from jury selection and deliberation to how communication and perception affect outcomes. They expertly apply the lessons learned in the courtroom to common conflicts and marketing challenges bakeries face, highlighting the power of empathy, communication, and perspective in both the legal and business worlds.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jury Duty: The Realities and Surprises

[02:43 - 14:38]

• Corrie's first jury duty experience:
  • “My husband's actually a police officer, so I thought for sure I'd never be called into jury duty.” [03:24, Corrie]
  • Large jury pool, with group numbers and a surprise selection process.
  • Civil vs. criminal trials: civil juries have 7 people, criminal trials have 12 (+2 alternates).
  • Voir dire—a process for vetting jurors—demonstrates how each side wants specific types of people (e.g., prosecution wanting “stealing is wrong” types, defense preferring those with less bias).
• Key screening questions:
  • Law enforcement connections, food service experience, and morality scenarios (“Is there anything so inexpensive you’d let it slide?”).
• Being honest during voir dire:
  • Corrie, as a police officer’s wife, expected to be struck—she jokes, “Well, my husband didn’t empty the dishwasher, so I guess he is capable of being wrong.” [12:09, Corrie]
  • To her surprise, she stays: “I thought they were 100% not going to keep me. And surprisingly, they did.” [12:39, Heather]

2. The Case: A Crime of Beer and (Maybe) Intent

[20:10 - 37:41]

• Incident recap:
  • A drunken 22-year-old stumbles into a bar, points a gun at the waitress, and demands a beer.
  • Waitress hands him a beer and flees, as do the only two patrons. The accused never leaves the bar or pays, but doesn’t exit with the drink.
• Legal complexities:
  • Charges: Armed robbery with a firearm, and public intoxication.
  • To convict for armed robbery, jury had to find A) intent to steal and B) use of a firearm. If either part not proven, defendant walks.
  • “He never left the restaurant… Whenever we go to a restaurant, we don't pay until the end. So you're a potential thief until the check comes back.” [29:38, Heather]
• Testimonies and evidence:
  • Waitress (via translator) cannot confirm if the beer was consumed or paid for.
  • Bodycam footage is invaluable, but several crucial details (like a photo of the beer) are missing due to what Corrie calls “shoddy police work.”
  • Defense leverages these doubts: “The defense said, listen, my perpetrator right here, he's dumb… If we were here for a brandishing charge, we'd all say he was guilty. But they didn't [charge for that].” [42:00, Corrie]

3. The Power of Jury Selection and Group Dynamics

[44:20 - 54:27]

• Jury deliberation is a group psychology experiment:
  • Judge advises: Don’t take a poll at first; discuss evidence before stating positions.
  • Social pressure can lead to changes in individuals' opinions (the “lines” psychology experiment).
• The crux: Did he actually steal the beer? Was intent proven?
  • "No one said if they think he's guilty or not... the big one that we all latch on to was the fact that we never saw if there was an empty beer bottle or a beer can..." [48:55, Corrie]
  • “He put a gun to someone's head and said, give me a beer...But I don't think he showed up to the restaurant and wanted to steal a beer. I think it was a crime of opportunity.” [51:58, Corrie]
• Outcome:
  • Jury can’t agree on intent; he’s convicted only of public intoxication—a $25 fine.
  • “He ended up just getting intoxication charge and a $25 fine and walked that day wild.” [54:27, Corrie]

4. Relating Courtroom Lessons to Bakery Business

[55:46 - 68:44]

• The “Jury of Your Peers”—as both a legal and bakery community parallel:
  • When bakers post grievances in the SCM Facebook group, they're seeking validation from their “jury” (other bakers)—not always an unbiased perspective.
    • “When you come to the sugar cookie marketing group, you're talking to a bunch of bakers who know the struggle... That’s a biased jury.” [56:34, Heather]
• Communication, Empathy, and Setting Expectations:
  • Feelings are not always rational; bakers must address client emotions as well as the facts.
    • “Most of life exists in the gray area between black and white.” [59:15, Heather]
    • “If there is a feeling where someone feels wrong, you can say, wow, I'm so sorry you feel that way. I can totally understand where you're coming from.” [59:19, Corrie]
  • Proactive, clear communication can avoid “trial by jury” situations with clients—set boundaries, clarify, confirm (“If I had to present this in a court of law, would I be embarrassed for the judge to read it?” [69:37, Heather]).
• Handling Mistakes:
  • Example: Baker forgets an order, offers apology, bakes same-day, and delivers with a note and half-refund.
    • “I'm grateful I had the tools at my disposal to turn what could have been a very unhappy customer into one for life.” [90:55, Facebook Member, Post of the Week]
• Conflict Resolution:
  • Apologizing for hurt feelings (even if not in the wrong) preserves relationships, reduces negative word-of-mouth, and is “free money.”
    • “I think you should apologize like it's free money. I think you should give it away...” [58:48, Heather]

5. Segment Highlights & Community Engagement

[81:03 - End]

• STL Me About It segment (Q&A and community interaction, including updates on podcast mascot Mr. Munch the cat, and Vendy Blendy group tips).
• Post of the Week:
  • Heather’s annual pricing data roundup: Current US national average for one dozen simple decorated cookies is $53.43 (median $57.50; mode $60). Up from previous year.
• Twin Trusts:
  • Corrie’s “fall bucket list” and seasonal activities.
  • Heather’s rave review of Dyson stick vacuums as both a cleaning tool and a life lesson in uncovering “what’s hiding under the surface.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “One year in the baking world is three years of human world, human time.” [01:01, Heather]
• "Do you hold your husband in high esteem? I said, I hope so. You know, I said, I do at the Walter." [12:19, Corrie]
• “If you went to Chick-fil-A without ordering at all and took a bunch of ketchup packets, is that stealing?...There's a little bit of a morality issue.” [10:51, Heather]
• “The most interesting part of your story to me is that jury pool selection and how they're able to ask those questions to hopefully weed out the people who are too in either direction.” [55:30, Heather]
• “When a baker comes to the sugar cookie marketing group, they are the defense and they present half of the story... You're looking for a jury of your peers to agree with you.” [55:46, Heather]
• “Most of life exists in the gray area between black and white.” [59:15, Heather]
• “If there is a feeling where someone feels wrong, you can say, wow, I'm so sorry you feel that way. I can totally understand where you're coming from.” [59:19, Corrie]
• “If I had to present this in a court of law, would I be embarrassed of the judge reading it?” [69:37, Heather]
• “I want to say, at the end of the day, we are all humans. And that was the biggest thing... Our hearts went out to him. He doesn't want to be a part of MS.13.” [55:01, Corrie]
• “You can be right on every count and still get the bad review.” [71:09, Heather]

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:43] – Corrie’s jury duty experience and selection process
• [14:38] – Case details begin: what actually happened that night
• [29:38] – Legal nuance of robbery vs. brandishing, and the “potential thief” analogy
• [44:20] – Jury deliberation process and group decision-making
• [54:27] – Final verdict and Corrie’s reaction: only convicted for public intoxication
• [55:30] – Application to bakery businesses: jury of peers in Facebook groups
• [59:15] – Empathy, feelings, and the “gray area” in client relationships
• [69:37] – Communicating with clients: “Would I be embarrassed if a judge read this?”
• [90:55] – Post of the week: handling a missed order with kindness

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Final Takeaways

• Jury Selection Parallels: Just as legal teams seek an “unbiased” jury, business owners should be aware of bias—both in their own perspectives and when seeking advice from peers.
• Communication and Documentation: Clarity up front prevents disputes later; set expectations as if every client interaction might be scrutinized.
• Handle Mistakes Humanely: Quick apologies, action, and empathy go further than being “right.”
• Community as Jury: When asking for advice or validation, consider your audience’s inherent biases.
• Priced by Experience: National averages for cookie pricing illustrate growing business confidence, cost of living realities, and a shift from “race to the bottom” to sustainable pricing.

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For More

• Join The Community: Sugar Cookie Marketing Facebook Group
• Learn & Grow: The Cookie College (coaching, classes, resources)
• Tune In: New episodes “bake it down” marketing, business trends, and community stories in a fun, PG, welcoming space “where even the fries get critiqued!”

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Whether you’re dodging jury duty or dodging tough clients, Heather and Corrie show there’s always something bittersweet (and often funny) to “bake down” for bakery business owners.

Transcript

[A]

It is the podcast. Cory. Yes. You're being recorded. So you can start smiling now. I'm always smiling. What are you talking about? Not to be deterred, I remember the last time we did a remote podcast. Everyone said, girls, that was a tough listen. And I think we figured it was a. Not only was it a tough listen, it was a tough watch. But I think that I figured this out, which is perfect in time because Corey and I will be having more guest speakers who don't have to fly into Washington, D.C. to be on the podcast. And we will be running it this way.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Although we. If you have any feedback from this one, that's a great texting question. It also gives you a chance to win, you know, so let us know.

[A]

Yes, potential win and you get a critique. My mom's going to be calling in.

[B]

Endlessly, but welcome to the Baking it down with Sugar Cookie Marketing podcast. We're a group that's on Facebook about 49,000 bakers strong. And from there, we're able to see.

[A]

What'S happening in the industry.

[B]

Trends, concerns, issues, wins, losses.

[A]

The list goes on. And fortunately, Cory and I were talking about this yesterday. We've been doing this for what I consider one year in the baking world is three years of human world, human.

[B]

Time in the baking podcast world.

[A]

One bajillion longest stand. Not the best, but definitely the longest standing. Sugar cookie podcast.

[B]

Yeah, we're trying to rework it and we're. I didn't smile.

[A]

Oh, so sorry. Hold on. I want to post this. 1, 2, 3. Better, better. Fun.

[B]

So we're going to rework the podcast because, you know, your feedback is great. People love that other people were able to share their journeys. I mean, I only have so much that I could share. And after three years, I'm pretty sure you know everything that I do in my own business. So I love to hear other bakers and their insights and whether it's a military family moving from town to town and how they're able to reopen and restart the bakery every time, to people who live in small towns, to people who focus, like on farm stands and markets, mostly that stuff I can't give to you. So we want, hey, here's what I.

[A]

Did, and I wish I never did it this way is a valuable piece of information. So what I'll be doing is posting in the sugar cookie marketing group this week, which I promised a lot of people a lot of posts this week, but this is one of those, so keep me an honest woman. You can sign up to Be interviewed on the podcast. And I promise you, the. The bite is not as worse as the bark. It will be an easygoing thing. And you just sign into Zoom and then we can ask you your most personal life questions that you never wanted to tell anyone.

[B]

Just be like your. Your interviewers. And we're as interviewers, it' job to find the interview.

[A]

We will find the truth. So back to this podcast. I know we skipped last week and everyone did ask for a tell all.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Got summoned for jury duty. So what we decided for this one because you guys were like, I'd really like to know the case. And Corey's very passionate about the case. I've heard about four times.

[B]

I'm. I'm. I'm done with the case.

[A]

So this will be her fifth and final retelling. And then at the end, well, you know, we had talked about some marketing aspects of the case and why it went the way it did and how we could apply that to bake curries. My big takeaway. Don't steal if you want to own a bakery or do you guys can judge? Okay, so give us the backstory of jury pool and then kind of walk us through what happened. And I will be asking inquisitive questions that I know the answer to so they can hear the answer.

[B]

Good, good.

[A]

Leave me out.

[B]

So, you know, it's so crazy. My husband's actually a police officer, so I thought for sure I never be called into jury duty. And this is the first time in my 36, almost 37 years of life that I've ever been asked to be in the jury d realm. So what I didn't know is that you're assigned a group number. I was group 100, but there's 100 to, like 107. That's a lot of people in that jury pool. The Friday before the Monday, you actually call in to see if your jury pool is being called in your group number. So group 100 was on the docket.

[A]

So I drove. Did this start as an email or a letter in the mail or something? How did you know?

[B]

Lecture in the mail online, or you could mail it in, but it was a jury questionnaire, and it was just asking you, like, are you currently living and residing in the county? Things like that is what it was asking. So it was pretty generic questions. And then from that you were selected in a group, and then from the group you were selected to come in.

[A]

Betty, they wanted you, man.

[B]

They were firing for me.

[A]

They were firing me.

[B]

So on Monday, I show up, you have to show up an hour and a half before actually the court opens. All the jury pool actually has to show up. So there was about 200 people that showed up because there were so many trials taking place. And what I thought was interesting was it's criminal trials as well as civil trials. They were both. You can get both trials have jury options. A criminal trial has 12 jurors and a civil trial has seven. So I thought that was interesting. So from there you're divided. And if you're going civil or if you're going criminal, it was different floors of the court.

[A]

Kind of like an interesting thing. When you ever see a baker and they're like, well, I'm going to sue you. You would be a civil court case. You would, you would. And you do. If you say, I'm going to kill you, that would be a criminal court case. That's exactly it.

[B]

So I ended up on the criminal floor.

[A]

The criminal floor is where we want her so bad. To judge somebody. Yeah. It's crazy that, you know, judge not that you be not judged or, you know, like, don't judge a book by its cover, but literally it's the jury of your peers judging your entire future. I know.

[B]

I think we're using the word peers. I thought that meant friends.

[A]

It means people very similar to you.

[B]

Okay. Because nobody in the room knew anyone. And that was a question you had to answer. Does anyone in this jury know anyone else in the room?

[A]

Like, you know, a peer reviewed study would mean a doctor wrote something and other doctors reviewed it. That makes sense.

[B]

I would like to think friends.

[A]

I have a couple friends. I don't have a lot. So it's going to be a jury of three.

[B]

Why do we say my peers are getting together and you assume friends are getting together.

[A]

I have never heard someone say, yeah, invited my peers over to my birthday.

[B]

I'm going to barbecue.

[A]

So anyways, okay, so it was interesting. You get into the jury pool. It was the diff. Both did. The prosecution lawyer and the defense lawyer attorney are vetting this room full of what, 30, 35 people?

[B]

About 40 is what it started off with.

[A]

And no offense to you, but it seems like they wanted the most personality, less the most opinion free group because they were motivated too. So why the prosecution would want everyone who's like, stealing is bad. The defense would be like, but I don't want you because you think stealing is bad. So give us an example of the.

[B]

The process of how they made the jury pool down to 14 people. Was this thing called boy, there And I don't know if I pronounced that. It is a Latin term, but it was quite cool to say it. But that's where the prosecution and the defense can ask questions to make sure you're an unbiased juror. So this court case had to deal with a waitress. So they had anyone.

[A]

What's interesting is you just told them there was 12 jury of their peers, but now they selected 14. So they had actually two moles, essentially, like two plants who weren't told the entire time that they were backup people. So nobody in this entire room realizes that two people's vote actually doesn't count at all.

[B]

What's so interesting is they had to have extra people. And the reason why is someone fell ill. You know, if they couldn't get to the courthouse, they couldn't have this whole trial done again. So they had two extras. Like, extras on a set, a movie. There was two extras, and no one knew who the extras were.

[A]

Not telling them they're worthless if somebody doesn't get sick is genius.

[B]

It made everyone have to pay attention because you didn't know if you were going to be cut first, which is.

[A]

One of the screening questions. Said, do you have anything that would distract you from paying attention today?

[B]

Okay. What I did learn is that nobody wants to be on jury.

[A]

Who would have guessed? The peers are not wrong.

[B]

Some guy raised his hand to that question and was like, well, my job is hosting a fishing tournament today. And the defense was like, dude, I'm trying to help you, but you can't say I need to go fishing to get out of this.

[A]

He was like, tell me a little bit more.

[B]

How long has it taken you to set up this fishing tournament? He's like, oh, yeah, I'm not in the fishing tournament. I'm judging it. But it's been, you know, in the works for a couple months, and I'm really involved. And if I'm not one of the judges today, they'll have to reset the whole thing. Like, he was trying to sell it. He didn't want to be under. They let him go. They let him go crazy.

[A]

Yeah. No sad lesson.

[B]

He said, if you make me do jury duty, my mind's gonna really be on the fish during the whole processing.

[A]

Yeah. No daydreamers allowed in dirty duty. So interesting. Corey had said that the prosecutor was kind of dry and not easily to connect with in personality. But the defense attorney was really likable, real jovial.

[B]

She was very matter of fact, which I think is fantastic in a lot of realms. Matter of fact, she knew the facts. She just wasn't personable. She wasn't gonna crack a smile. She wasn't gonna make a joke. But defense, on the other hand, cracking jokes right and left.

[A]

And everyone's giggling, including Corey says she looks up and the judge is giggling. The judge, oh, shit.

[B]

This man is likable.

[A]

So he went through and he asked some very interesting questions that you didn't think that it would scream people out. So one was, give me some examples of the questions.

[B]

One of the questions, does anyone have food serv. Have passed in food service?

[A]

That's an interesting one. If you had raised your hand, suddenly you were dismissed. So it kind of tells you where this case is going. It's something related to food service. Now another one I thought was interest. Interesting. You said, he said, is there anything so expensive, like so much, or is there anything too inexpensive that you would say guilty or not? Which is a very interesting question that had a huge play in the thing. So reword that for me.

[B]

They said, do you think that someone should be charged criminally for something that's just too expensive? Like something. Like someone stole a house or something? She's like, something so crazy that your mind can't wrap around it. But to the other end, is there something so inexpensive that you're like, you know, they found a tissue pack in the store and took it, but they needed a tissue. I don't think that's stealing. Oh, and ketchup packet at a store is what she said, a little ketchup bottle. Would you think that's stealing?

[A]

Oh, ketchup bottle. Because ketchup packet to me. Well, it's all relative.

[B]

I know it's all relative.

[A]

A Taco Bell, they could give you a 50 billion packets. That's not thieving. But if I went And I took 50 billion packets, it's. It's all relative. Right? So that's why it's all.

[B]

It's all.

[A]

What I've learned is this all is.

[B]

Dealt on your personal life journey.

[A]

So if these. These questions figure out in couple minutes what that journey is. Yeah, that's crazy.

[B]

Because if you went to Chick Fil a and you got a ketchup. Ketchup packet, I'd be like, oh, well, she ordered from Chick Fil A and got a ketchup packet. That's not stealing. But if you walked into Chick Fil A without ordering at all and took a bunch of ketchup packets, is that stealing? And it comes down to there's a little bit of a morality issue.

[A]

In all of these questions, and I want to let the audience sit with this one. Using the bathroom of McDonald's or a gas station. But you did not buy anything.

[B]

Well, a lot of times there's signs that say, I know, but non custard.

[A]

Sometimes I rarely do it because I can always buy a Diet Coke. But sometimes, like, I'm stealing the bathroom toilet water. But you're so convenient. Every flush does cost a few. I'm telling you.

[B]

So.

[A]

Okay, so this is interesting. Corey's husband is a police officer. And Corey's husband, a couple weeks ago, was on a case where one of the jurors was actually the guy he goes to the gym with. The case is almost done, and the guy mentions it to the prosecution defense that he knows Nate. And they. They call it a mistrial because they were like, you weren't supposed to be here. So Corey's sweating bullets.

[B]

I'm sweating because I want to be honest, I don't want to throw anyone's case who.

[A]

We all secretly, all the sisters said Corey really wants to. To do this whole thing. So. But she was like. So he says, is anyone. Defense says, is anyone in law enforcement or is anyone related to law enforcement in any capacity? So Corey's like, immediately I raised my hand, I gather my stuff, I'm walking out the door. And he. Interesting question. He said, well, before you go, do you think that police officers are incapable of making mistakes? And Corey with her jokey child, with my dog.

[B]

I said, well, my husband didn't empty the dishwasher today, so I guess he is capable of being wrong.

[A]

And they're like, grab a seat. You'll be staying for this court case.

[B]

I honestly thought they would dismiss me because I had such a ties. But he said, do you hold your husband in high esteem? I said, I hope so. You know, I said, I do at the Walter. And then he said, do you think cops are human? Can they be wrong? And I said, yes. And I thought, even though, like, my answers were pretty straight, you know, in the middle of the line, that they were 100% not going to keep me.

[A]

And surprisingly, they did. When I posted last week in the group that we weren't doing the podcast because you were condemning someone to life in prison, somebody was like, I actually work for the police department, and I got called for jury duty, and we said the person was not guilty, and they walked up to my desk later and said, why did you say not guilty? So that's why. It was quite a few more people than you realize were like, yeah, my husband's a police officer. I'm a police. I got called to it. Which I guess if you. If your civic duties. To be honest, I don't know. So then they've whittled this down to.

[B]

They've whittled the room of 40 down to a room of probably 25. Correct. So still too many. What happens then was you have preemptive strikes. So the preemptive strikes were the guy who said he had the fishing tournament and the other guy who said if one guy, one question they asked. They said, if the. If the defendant the. Would be criminal doesn't testify and tell you guys that he's innocent, do you think he is guilty? And someone raised their hand. They're like, yeah, if you're innocent, you're going to be trying to tell everyone how innocent you are. So if you don't take the stand, I think you're guilty. So they dismissed him. And these are called pre strikes.

[A]

Are you kind of saying like, if anyone answers this, I know they're going to get cut? Except for your question about the police.

[B]

I thought yeah, because they were very leading questions.

[A]

Okay. So I thought, if you guys are trying to get out of jury duty, pay attention here.

[B]

Yeah. So when he asked, is anyone been in food service? All those people were cut. Right.

[A]

Which is very interesting because this comes right down to that perspective. So, yeah, so it whittles it down. Then you get the pre check. Some guys like my lower back aches and they're like, you'll be staying.

[B]

You ended up being on the trick.

[A]

It was a little confusing as to what questions would get you. Count what questions would get you. But it was very interesting to see that the prosecution wanted a certain type of juror and the defense would want to get rid of a certain type of juror. So you say kind of what they end up with is the people farthest, furthest removed from this entire experience because they would be the least bothered, biased. Except for me, because there was cops into play later. So we still wonder why Corey got selected. But she was honest.

[B]

So I was honest.

[A]

I was honest immediately as soon as they whittled down to the 14. So you got the 12 jurors and the two plants that nobody knows who they are. You're called into the courtroom, but I think you go to lunch. I actually saw a picture of a Wendy's.

[B]

She was like, listen, we want to get started. I don't want you to leave today and have to come back tomorrow and the next day and the next day so she said, go take a lunch. I'm going to give you an hour and a half and then we're going to come and we're going to get the trial started today. So she's like, anyone who's on the 14, go eat. You have to be back at this time.

[A]

But the wild part is you do have. You're allowed to have your phone the.

[B]

Whole time because you're sending to have your own phone. But they demanded. They demanded that you were not allowed to look up anything about the case.

[A]

Www what happened to this guy dot com.

[B]

And she made you say before the entire court, like, did anybody look up anything? And you had to say yes or no.

[A]

And everyone sent up. But if you'd said yes and you got off but you wanted to be there. Okay. Yeah, but you would be breaking. She. It looks like she would be judging you. That's judging you is a double judge. So, okay, so then you come back to course. At any point, did they kind of tell you how long this was going to take? I mean, you wouldn't know because there was testimony in two sides. But were they like this typically wrapped up. And she said of the Johnny Depp Amber heard trial, which happened in Fairfax County. Yeah, where we live. And it was. So it lasted for over a month.

[B]

And that was a civil trial. And the judge actually looks over the witness, the amount of exhibits so you know any evidence and the length of trial. And she does an estimate. So she told us it's estimated this will be done in two or three days. So get off from work from two or three days.

[A]

But you do get paid for this. But you do not know currently what the pay rate was.

[B]

Someone said $50 a day. $50.

[A]

I was telling her it was $30. Inflation. Who knows? Who knows you can afford one. Wendy's turns out also a little factoid here. Corey likes Wendy's.

[B]

Gross. I do like Wendy's by myself because nobody likes it. But I do like the number one single. I think it's called the Dave's Dave single.

[A]

Does it come with fry?

[B]

It does come with a fry.

[A]

Here's what I say.

[B]

I want to talk.

[A]

I want to. If you work for Burger King and you're listening and you work for Wendy's and you're listening, why you guys pick the worst kind of fry? Why when McDonald's is out there and Chick Fil a is out there and even Arby's is out there picking the best kind of fry, why don't you select the fry that is basically A.

[B]

Step above the trash. Wendy's Wendy's fry is a dry fry.

[A]

Let me tell you.

[B]

And also one thing I don't like about Wendy's. Do you know that that drink machine that has like 50 million options? Press the screen. They've all gone to that. I don't like that.

[A]

Here's the problem. Those things were state of the art. And then now I think they're a.

[B]

State of the fart.

[A]

Like they all went bad.

[B]

I think they're like, here's a wisp of what a Diet Coke should taste like.

[A]

Well, they're always broken. That lineup of the five and ice in the middle and the water tap that has not failed for years. Yeah, yeah, that's what I like.

[B]

But Wendy's doesn't have that. So be prepared to be sad when you get your diet.

[A]

But you can have a little cherry and orange syrup in there if you want. Okay.

[B]

I was starving at this point though, because I didn't think I was going to be pig. So I did not eat breakfast. And I want to tell you, I've never been in such a quiet place where you can hear a clock on the wall. So anyone's stomach was literally the sound of a dinosaur in a closed door.

[A]

That would tell my stomach to be as loud as humanly possible growl. So loud people ask you if you need medical attention.

[B]

I didn't pack one. So I. I rushed over to Wendy's and I inhaled a burg and a little Sodi Modi. And then I got back at just in time.

[A]

But. But you can't be late. Cause it can't start without you.

[B]

If some people were late. One lady got turned around. She was almost one hour late.

[A]

So we had to wait for. That's insane. Yeah, that's insane. I know. Not go late. She went to Ross or home goods and shopping.

[B]

I believe so. Okay, so we get back from lunch, they take us in and they start opening arguments. So I want to say if anyone you know is squeamish about. Hear about firearms. There is a firearm involved in this and it's involved in the whole case. So if you want to tune out right now, you totally can. But it is part of that. Okay, cool thing.

[A]

So lead me also, if you worked in service industry, you're.

[B]

If you have a fishing tournament, please excuse yourself.

[A]

Your lower back hurts, you're back in the courtroom.

[B]

So the opening arguments were pretty interesting because these two people that. Who had just asked us all these.

[A]

Questions about ourselves, but also wildly. The guy, the perp is also has been present this entire time.

[B]

He could choose. He was actually in on choosing his own jury.

[A]

He did. The defense, like, look at him. Was like, should we vote it or not?

[B]

What was so funny was there's this paper that passed between both of them. The, the sheriff kept giving it one to the other and they were striking people, but they had to come to an agreeance of 14 people. So when they finally were looking, it was like there was two defense lawyers and the would be criminal and they were looking over the paper. They would strike someone, they would send the paper back over to the commonwealth. They would strike one or they would say approved and they whittled it down to four.

[A]

It's really like PTSD of being a little kid being picked for the sports, honestly.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Corey has a lot of pent up aggression about that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So now we're back in the courtroom and it gets started.

[B]

It gets started. So I'm gonna just lay the case out to you as the case was.

[A]

Laid out to me and everyone listening in podcast land. Be your. Be the juror.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And choose the fate of this person. Then we'll reveal if you were right or wrong. Yeah.

[B]

I'm gonna say it matter of factly. Neither which way. Any way that we went. Or you just decide as your own.

[A]

Juror what you would decide. Okay.

[B]

One late night on a Tuesday night of March 2024, a drunken man stumbles in to a restaurant bar. It's around 1 in the morning. There is almost nobody in this bar. There's a dance floor, the music is going. There's barely any patrons. There's only two patrons there. And they're waiting on to go food. The waitress is so bored, she's actually sitting at the bar on her phone. Okay. The waitress hears something. She doesn't know what the person said, so she turns around, looks up from her phone. When she turns around, someone draws a gun and points it at her forehead. Okay. The person says, give me a beer.

[A]

I've never been that thirsty a day in my life.

[B]

She reaches for the first beer from behind the bar, sets it on the bar and runs for her life, Leaving the restaurant.

[A]

Okay. This is really. That was the entire court case right there. That was it. The next three days hinge on that three second story because of these details that end up. Which is very interesting because. And then this is my little bringing it back to marketing. You know, it's always so easy to make that. I wish I could go back in time. And I would have said this differently. And then you have three. You know, like in this court case, the police officers had three days of being berated by not going back in time. So a lot of times you see people saying, here's my policies. They're written in blood because of issues I've had in the past.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, you know, so it's that blurry line of, like, get ahead, and I need to take pictures of everything before it goes out to make sure there's no hair because it comes back and someone's like, there's a hair in it. Are they lying or. Okay, whatever. Go on.

[B]

Yeah. So what the commonwealth brought. The charges the commonwealth was bringing against the defendant here was armed robbery with a firearm and drunk intoxication. So there was technically three. Three charges. The two hinged on themselves. He was guilty of robbery. He was guilty of robbery with a felony firearm and public intoxication. Unfortunately, the way that the commonwealth prosecuted this, if you said he was guilty of robbery but not the use of a firearm, he walks free. If you said, no, he definitely had a firearm on him. But I don't think he was trying to rob the place. He walks free.

[A]

That's what we. We said. Maybe there's a little too much to chew here. And then it was the drunk intoxication, drunk in public or whatever.

[B]

It was $25 fine. So, like, really, he was going away for.

[A]

It was, like, going to be a.

[B]

Freebie if he left.

[A]

Okay, okay, so then. And the interesting part is now they're starting to call up police officers as what. What do you call witnesses? Witnesses. So the interesting part is. So in Fairfax county or in Prince William county in Northern Virginia, you have all the police officers have chest cams, body cams.

[B]

So.

[A]

But they. It's interesting. Corey says they arrive and they're.

[B]

They're only.

[A]

It's a It. There's no way to know who is who. And you always, like, condemn, like, police officers. Like, why didn't you do that? And Cory's like, the interesting thing is he walks up to the perp, the police officer, and shakes his hand and says, hey, it's been a while. Like, they knew each other.

[B]

And so the problem is, is when a phone call goes into dispatch, the phone caller is giving all the information they have to another person. If you ever played the game telephone growing up, this is bad.

[A]

So, yeah, Steph's lost in translation. It's also a high stress situation. And it's now edging towards two in the morning.

[B]

It's. It's edging towards two in the morning. The Dispatch has said, unfortunately, what they translated from the phone call was there someone brandishing a firearm at a local restaurant that's outside of that.

[A]

And then dispatch a police officer. So when the police officers get there, they know of nobody who is who.

[B]

They don't. And typically someone who's brandishing a firearm, they're. They're elevated, they're angry, they're showing force. Unfortunately, the perp was drunk and kind of a nice drunk back, easy going Robert. So when the cops walk in, he's so passive and like, hey, man, hey ra, how's it doing? They even do this little hand5y thing.

[A]

Him and the cops wild.

[B]

But the cops don't know he is the perpetrator at this point. So they walk in to the restaurant. The restaurant's music is. I've never heard like we're. It's beyond loud. It played so loud in the courthouse, it almost made like the whole room shake. That was how crazy it was.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

They walk into there, there's nobody in the restaurant except for the general manager is in the back. The cop yells over the music, I can't hear you. Turn down the music. The general manager, who doesn't speak a lot of English, says, I don't want to talk to cops.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Then the police officer turns around and leaves. Goes back to now the suspect in the front because he's narrowed it down. There's no one in the building except for the general manager who has food service apron on. So you could deduce that he probably works there. So now the only person left in the restaurant is this very friendly drunk man at the front. So the cop has put two in this.

[A]

The wait, the waitress.

[B]

He actually never went back into the building. So they weren't able.

[A]

We're still in the building. And that becomes a key. So the only person in the building is now police officer, the perpetrator and the guy in the back. And he don't want to come out, but the music's really loud.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So there's three people.

[B]

So the comp has deduced that the guy probably who's pretty jovial and drunk in the front is probably the perpetrator in this. So we've already done that.

[A]

Bear hug.

[B]

We bear hugged. We've gone to the family reunion, everything like that. So the cop goes back up now that he knows a little bit more information and says, hey, buddy, I'm just gonna put you in handcuffs to like get some more information. Is there anything?

[A]

Because there's a gun somewhere in this building.

[B]

Just From? Yeah, just from what dispatch said, somebody had a firearm.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So he says, is there anything on you that could poke prod or stick me or hurt me? Oh. The perpetrator said, no. He's like, okay, well, I'm gonna search you. He's like, okay, yes, there is a gun in my waistband.

[A]

Okay. And I'm sorry to paint the. The per. How old is he?

[B]

22.

[A]

And is he very inebriated?

[B]

Very, very inebriated.

[A]

Okay. Does he look like a nice guy? Does he look like the guy that's sitting in front of you as well?

[B]

He honestly looks like we could laugh and have a good time with his drunk self. He's very serious in court because I think his life is on the line. But they do look like the same people for sure. So he's got handcuffs, and they do find a firearm in his waistband.

[A]

Now, this is interesting because in Northern Virginia, all I know Virginia's gun laws is you are allowed to open carry, but the minute is concealed, which even that includes your shirt covering the firearm. You have a concealed carry firearm, and it needs to be licensed now. So if you guys are wondering, in Virginia, you can put a firearm in your passenger seat, as in the minute your purse falls on top of that, it is now considered concealed and needs to be licensed.

[B]

Yes. So you could say, well, is he getting a concealed gun charge? No, because you can't prosecute for robbery with a firearm and then have a lesser charge of he was hiding a gun in his pants.

[A]

Because I guess it would be crazy. It's like murder. But also you're a bully. And also you're a bad person. Like you. That'd be like. I keep adding five years every time we come up with something. So.

[B]

So no one ever spent any time if he had a license or no license.

[A]

It's just because it relevant to this point. It is so.

[B]

It's just the fact that they do show that they pull a gun out of his waistband and show on the body cam footage there is no bullet in the chamber. I don't know why that was such a big deal, but it turned out to be a big deal later on. But there is no bullet in the chamber, but he has two magazines on him. So there's a magazine in the gun, no bullet in the chamber. Extra magazines in his purse.

[A]

Bullets are in the magazine. So if you guys don't know about firearms, you have the firearm and then the magazine is what loads the bullets into the firearm. But it requires an extra step to take the bullet from the Magazine and put it in the chamber.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Meaning that without that extra step, there's no way to fire the firearm, which comes into play here, especially in the jury pool. Later, the jurors.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So anyways, now we got the police officer. We're still on body cam. They find the farm, and they're playing this for you guys. You're watching the body cam in our area, and you've probably seen in the news there's a gang, it's actually plagued our area since I was a little kid called Ms. 13. And this guy says to the police officer, I only carry this firearm because I do not want to be recruited into that gang. Which kind of course, that adds some humanity. It does.

[B]

In the way he's saying it as a drunk man who's 22 who said, I just don't want to be in Ms. 13. This is why I carry.

[A]

I ain't trying to be in that live right now.

[B]

This is how he's saying it. So you're like. Like, I feel. I feel for him. I feel bad for him a little bit. So they said, did you pull a firearm on the lady in there? He says, no. It's very important that we hear the word no.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But then he also says. And he's like, that's not what they're saying, is what the cop says to him. He replies with, bro, if I say yes, you'll give me another four to five years.

[A]

Which he's correct.

[B]

He is correct. So the perpetrator knows the firearms charges. Okay. Okay.

[A]

Now this is the interesting part of this whole thing, right? Because remember, you might be saying, well, he's guilty of something. Right. But remember, the state went for armed robbery, which requires two things, a firearm and the stealing of property. Yeah, but remember, and this is the complexity of it, he never has left the restaurant. So, in essence, whenever we go to a restaurant, we don't pay until the end. So you're a potential thief until the check comes back.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Because you, you know, you can eat your whole meal as long as you can go to the bathroom 50 times, but the minute you walk over the threshold, you've now run out on your check.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So remember, go ahead. The next witness they call is the waitress herself. Okay? So the waitress. We have to remember, this whole thing happened over a year and a half ago.

[A]

That's the wild part.

[B]

It's wild because people are like, she wasn't showing an emotion. She probably had emotion for the last year and a half and finally has replayed it so much, she's able to talk through it without emotion. So she does retell this whole thing. She does have a translator. She speaks only Spanish. So she has a Spanish, English translator. And she says. She recounts it that she was on her phone at the bar. She was not looking, paying attention. Someone says something to her. She doesn't quite hear what they say. She turns around, says, what? There's a gun on her face. She hears, give me a beer. She gives him the beer and runs. What she did not know is if he drank the beer. She never tried to collect the money from him.

[A]

She just left.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So now we've got a sticky situation. And you may say, well, it's not sticky. It gets very sticky because the other two witnesses who were waiting for to go food were also going to go away from this. So nobody actually gets their information. But did they talk to the police officers?

[B]

They actually. So when the dispatch called it in as a brandishing, that's what the cops went with. That mindset that this person's just raising a gun around and doing that craziness. When they went and talked to the two patrons, the two unknown patrons, the waitress and the general manager, that's when the patron's like, no, he took the beer. We saw him take the beer, and then we all ran. Unfortunately, what the cops did not do was get the information of the patrons. So it was.

[A]

So Corey said, it became. It went from open and shut case had those two patrons showed up. Because now it's not. It's. It's one lady's experience corroborated by two other witnesses who were also so affected. I think one of them is who called 911. Yeah, but now because. And Corey said the word shoddy police work, because of the shoddy police work, those two people weren't there. And it became a he said, she said story with, I didn't steal it. And she says, he did. Right. And that was problematic.

[B]

So it went from brandishing, because that's how dispatch called it in, to when the cops interviewed the patrons, the waitress and the general manager, he said, oh, this is more than a brandishing. This is a felony robbery with a firearm. And that's where the state takes it over and says, we're going to prosecute with. With the firearm charge.

[A]

And the firearm charge carries a lot more. So remember, one of the charges is just a $25 fine. The other charge is five years in jail.

[B]

Five to 20 years.

[A]

Oh, my goodness. And then one. The middle charge is actually one year.

[B]

Well, you couldn't have done. It didn't matter if the middle charge, it was either five to 20 years or a $25 fine, because you can't have one without the other. It can't just be a robbery, and it can't just be he had a firearm.

[A]

So it was like a robbery. And a firearm would add it together, and they have to be added together would be 5 and 20 or a $25 fine. So it's just is fascinating that that is the two options or not guilty, I guess. Right. So they got that third option. So sure. So now you've heard from the lady, the waitress, and that's why now you guys can see why they dismissed anyone in food service. Because you would be biased towards a waitress, which is unfair. But you'd be like, that's unfair. Like the waitress needed someone biased towards her. But no, they wanted people not biased at all in any direction. And that's why the prosecution and the defense were allowed to strike the people.

[B]

People. Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so you hear from that lady, she's not emotional. Not emotional because this has happened a year and a half ago. Okay. Wild. And then you never hear from the defendant.

[B]

Sorry, we never hear from the defendant. Because, you know, as you, if you watch any one of those, like ncis, if you watched, you know, svu, csi, they always say you don't want to incriminate yourself. So when you go on the stand to plead your case, you can plead your case, but then the other side can actually question you. And that's where a lot of people get tripped up. So you'll see a lot of defense attorneys tell their clients, don't take the stand. Because if you take the stand, they can trip you up and you can.

[A]

Put, I want every documentary possible. And they're like, and he took the stand and he was unlikeable. So it's very interesting in the terms of jury of your peers, how likability really does play into how this ends.

[B]

I, I, you know, I honestly will say, because he was very slouch the whole time. He didn't make eye contact. Honestly, when they played the body cam footage, he was embarrassed. You could tell, like him saying, oh my God, like being just crazy drunk and saying, mom, I want to call my stepdad, you know, everything like that he was probably just a tinge embarrassed because how belligerently drunk that he was. So we never hear from him, but we've watched him the whole time. And with the prosecution, what the commonwealth said was, watch him during this, watch his demeanor, see how he acts. Because they want to say everything is included in this trial. The way he sits there, the way he acts, the way that he reacts to things. They wanted you to see.

[A]

I mean, the way he reacts to things as you sit there and watch him.

[B]

Him. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, interesting. So he must have said the guy was slightly. Had contrition towards the whole situation.

[B]

Yes. So then, like, I think he was embarrassed about that, which is natural to be embarrassed. You know, you're caught drunk saying whatever.

[A]

So you're like, firearms, somebody like, come on. So Corey said it was very interesting how it was the almost. The defense wanted to look at every component of this versus a prosecution. There was a gun in somebody's face.

[B]

What's crazy is the commonwealth, the prosecutor wanted us to know. So she actually sends the firearm to get tested. Is it workable? Can there be a bullet shot through the gun? So they actually had the firearms expert come in as an expert witness. But I want to say the one thing that nobody disagreed on was the fact that he had a firearm on him because we saw the body cam footage where they pull it out of his belt. But for whatever the reason, the prosecution really wants to drive home that this gun is a working gun. She actually had us pass it around. It was in a box and we passed this so we could actually see that it was a firearm. So from what she was getting at was she really wanted you to know that he had a real firearm and this firearm was able to shoot bullets out of it and was a deadly weapon at the end of the day.

[A]

Yeah. It's interesting because Corey said, you know, you and I have been to shooting ranges before. To fire a firearm, the amount of energy and force dispelled from it is surprising. Corey said, when you watch any show, any shoot em up movie, the ease of pulling the trigger is so simple.

[B]

And they're like 52 times in two seconds. I'm like, wow, that's wild.

[A]

There's no recoil. There's no, you know, there's, you know. So I think the prosecution was trying to bring reality to it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

In a way that's kind of hard to do. And you can see that when you watch those merge out. So anyways, it goes through the whole day, it goes into the next day. But you said you're constantly coming in and going out of this thing because they need the jury to exit when the lawyers need to speak to the judge.

[B]

Yeah. So if a lawyer wants to say, like, I want to enter this into the exhibit or I want to replay this part of the body cam footage. They need to be able to say that to the judge without us hearing. Because if we hear like this is a very important part of the body cam footage, we're going to hone in on that. That's the thing.

[A]

Times like when you're watching the documentaries and the j. The, you know, defense attorney says a question in a leading way, and they're like, can you guys forget that you just heard that? It's an objection.

[B]

Jury, please strike that from your memory.

[A]

Was there any of those?

[B]

There was just what. What was funny was the Spanish waitress said something in Spanish. And right before the translator could trans translate it into English, the defense attorney knew a little bit of Spanish and he said, objection. Before the translator says that. That's the leading question. I don't want him to translate it. And the judge sided with them and said, sustained. Yeah.

[A]

So they weren't able to finish it. Did the judge know Spanish as well, or did she get the translator to whisper it to her?

[B]

I don't know. She acted like she knew Elizabeth was Spanish.

[A]

Well, impressive. Okay, so then you go through day one and you're hearing all the testimony. The interesting part about it, Corey, you'd mentioned, is that the defense attorney asked the police officer which car? Because now there's two units there. Which car did you put the gun, the firearm into? And the police officer says, I can't remember. But Corey's like, obviously the defense knew because we ended up watching it on the body cam. But he was trying to instill in the jury that the police officers.

[B]

He was trying to discredit the testimony.

[A]

Of the police officers. I don't remember. I can't remember. But again, it was an. It was a year and a half ago and these police officers responded to a million of these since then. But okay, Cory's like, they could have just reviewed the body cam footage. It was interesting to try to implant.

[B]

The doubt or a lack of care.

[A]

A lack of, you know. Yeah.

[B]

Cuz the defense with the defense was like, hey, so you guys did that nice high five at the beginning. Do you do that to all the criminals? You come.

[A]

I'd be like, he's free.

[B]

Let him go.

[A]

This is an inside job.

[B]

But as a cop for a husband, Nate says we actually come on to a thing. He's like, already? When a cop comes up to a situation, tension is high. So he said, we try to do anything to alleviate tension. So if that's the handshake, if that's like, hey, man, you know, saying endearing.

[A]

Words of Mine, Corey says the phone call says there's a younger Hispanic guy that's very broad. And in the area that the this happened in, there was, you know, high population.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So the police officer thinks this is a witness, not the perpetrator. So it's very interesting. But it's interesting how the defense took that and tried to. And you guys were like, oh, that's a really interesting way.

[B]

But what's so funny is a police officer can't add information. So he says, do you greet all of the perpetrators like that? And he had to just say yes or no. He can't be like. Like, well, when we come up to a situation, we have to kind of make sure everyone's not allowed to. No, you can only answer what they said in the defense can be like, objection. That's not what I asked.

[A]

Oh, crazy. So you're trying to paint them to look bad, and they just kind of got to take it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Another thing, because Corey's husband's a police officer, I thought this was interesting is he says, what people don't realize is, you know, people who don't get arrested never really get arrested. They really, you know, go their whole lives never interfacing with police. But the people who do get arrested are actually getting arrested pretty often. Especially when you live a certain. Lead a certain type of life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So Nate's like, it's. We've seen the same guys over and over again. They keep getting into trouble. We spend, you know, hours with them investigating. So eventually. So this wasn't the first time they'd ever met the police officer and the perpetrator.

[B]

But you can't bring in past crimes or any information like that. Nate says when he arrests someone, he'll be like, joe, man, what are you doing today? You said you were gonna do this again. Because he knows Joe. Because Joe's been arrested four times prior. So you can have a rapport with a criminal, but unfortunately, that rapport is the only thing we see in that little body.

[A]

And that's what the defense wanted you to see.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Because this would have. Just even hearing this part where we got to de. Escalate, you know, we've got it. That's why you can kind of say, like, Nate will be like, I'll come over and make a joke to see if it can lighten the situation versus escalation. Okay. So very interesting. So you go through the half of the first day because you guys went to lunch, and then you came back and it. Oh, they always try to get everyone out by 5:30.

[B]

Yeah. So we ended up not getting out till like about 6ish that day just because it went over a little bit long. So we actually didn't. They did not finish the trial that day. So the next day when we came in, they finished it in about less than an hour, 45 minutes. They called the two police officers back up again.

[A]

There's not a lot to go off of, but not a lot.

[B]

And what they said was just repeated of what they did the day before. And then it was closing arguments.

[A]

And you said in the closing arguments, it seemed like both the defense and prosecution could kind of say whatever they wanted, all the stuff that would have been objected to. Now this final thing rolls out the window. It seems like.

[B]

Yeah, it seems like. It seems like you can lead in the pieces that maybe aren't filled in. You could fill them in. In these closing hours.

[A]

It seems wild that there were so many rules all of a sudden. And now it's like, hey, guys, do you like beer? Like, you know, I know.

[B]

I just wonder, like, can they say, like, whatever they want in closing arguments and maybe someone will text in and let us know? But it seemed like it was a free for all.

[A]

Before we jump into this part, the interesting part of this whole thing is in the body cam footage and in the testimony, nobody knows what happened to this and whether it was consumed or not. And this becomes the massive sticking point because remember, it's armed. We know that.

[B]

Yeah, robbery.

[A]

And that's the part that they have a struggle with, because, did he take it or not? Well, the lady said he did. Well, he said he didn't. Now it's a he said, she said. Was there proof that this beer was consumed?

[B]

Yeah. So the closing armaments of the defense, he really honed in on. He said, listen, my. My perpetrator right here, he's dumb. Sorry, bud. I'm just gonna say it. He did something stupid and he brandished his firearm. If we were here for a brandishing charge, we'd all say he was guilty. We saw the gun and his waistband. The great thing is that this man is not on trial for brandishing a.

[A]

Firearm because the defense went for the more.

[B]

Yeah. So the defense can say it freely, which you're like, wow, the defense knows. Like, the defense isn't calling, you know, a spade. It's calling a spade a spade. It's saying he did have a firearm. So you're, like, relating with the defense because he's like, if this was a brandishing, he would be guilty in this he, he said the prosecution should have gone for a brandishing charge. We'd all be on the same page. This would have been wrapped up in less than 10 minutes. But they didn't. They've gone to a robbery. And he said, listen, when, if you ever seen Ocean's Eleven, if you've ever seen those getaway cop shows, they get whatever they're trying to steal. If they go rob a bank, they get the wads of cash and they make a run for it. He said this perpetrator didn't run. They don't even know if he drank the beer or not. What if he was in there trying to pay and no one was there to collect his money?

[A]

Would you like. But he had a gun. And nobody pays with a gun. But the wild part is that wasn't the charge. The charge was armed robbery. Who was just the charge of armed guilty.

[B]

It was armed drinking a beer. Who had been charged. We don't even know who drink the beer.

[A]

The interesting part is, did he drink the beer? Did he not? We can all assume he did, but you can't make the assumption here. And then he never left the restaurant. Which brings you back into when I order food, essentially I'm a, a potential thief until the check is paid.

[B]

Yes. Yes. So then prosecution's closing arguments was, give me a gun.

[A]

I mean, give me a beer. There's a gun in your face.

[B]

Give me a gun and a beer.

[A]

Give me a gun.

[B]

I need an order of 12 dozen cookies.

[A]

I need 12 dozen guns. One beer. So she said, give me a beer.

[B]

Gun to her face. She has nothing to lose, nothing to win. She doesn't own the bar. She's not tied to the bar owner. Her being here today is her in and of her own testing testimony seen. So then the jury is sent to deliberate.

[A]

So unsurprisingly, surprisingly, Corey gets picked to be the jury foreman. Right? Am I saying that right?

[B]

Foreman, yes.

[A]

Corey gets in there and her Corey like attitude and said, hey, guys, I'm going to move this along. I'll be using the whiteboard. I'll be grabbing the. The markers and we'll just.

[B]

I'm going to tell you the, the pin drop. We've been now a jury together, a jury pool for about, about 48 hours. It's silent anytime we go in there because people aren't talkative. That's fine. And you're not about the case. So you'd literally be striking up a conversation just with someone out of the, like, hey, I like your shirt today. So a Lot of people aren't shitty chattery. So when we finally get. The jury is now in the deliberation room, it's silent.

[A]

So this is the first time you guys are allowed to talk about the case because they didn't want you swaying anyone until this point, but now they want a lot of swaying.

[B]

Yeah. They said, I want you to come to an agreement, 12 UV, you have to decide today. So when we get in there, it's silent. So I said, all right. You know, I just like to keep things moving and I'm a great note taker. So I would just like to say if anyone would like to volunteer to be the four person, because this is your dream and you don't think you'll ever be called back, please raise your hand. Nobody raises their hands.

[A]

Now, this is interesting. The next however many hours you guys are deliberating, it kind of falls into the line. They did a psychology test where they had a bunch of. Of pretend plants walk into a room. And then one person who didn't realize they were the only person the study was on, they thought all 12 people or all 10 people were. And they held up in the projector two lines, two straight lines of different lengths. And then the test runner said, hey, raise your hand if A is the shortest line when it's clearly the longest line. And then you start running through that test over and over again. And the guy who's like, clearly that's a shorter line would start changing his mind based off of what the entire room was saying, just for that mental fear that maybe you're missing out on something and you want to blend in with the.

[B]

You miss something, they know something that you don't know. You don't want to look, like, ostracized.

[A]

Like they needed straight lines. Right. So Corey says it's very interesting how this group of individuals starts moving as a single unit.

[B]

It really does. So what the judge encouraged us not to do, she said, don't go into the room and take a poll off the bat if you think he is guilty or not guilty. She said, start discussing the evidence that was shown in front of you and the reason why, why she didn't want you to say, like, what do you think right now? As soon as we walk in, because people can be swayed. And she was like, present the evidence.

[A]

Horrifying. I know.

[B]

Present the evidence and go off of that. She also said, please don't one person go in there and just say the word guilty or not guilty.

[A]

Of course, she said.

[B]

She says, introverted people don't tend to like to go against the loudest person. So if loud people are in the room, you're going to sway people just for the fact people don't like confrontation. So we went in there and we said. And I said, all right, listen, he's up for these three charges. I just wrote him on the board. Factually, he's up for robbery, Robbie with a firearm, and public intoxication.

[A]

But remember, robbery and robbery with a firearm have to go together. So there's really two outcomes. Okay.

[B]

Talk directly. But it was three charges. So if he said yes on all of them, he would have gotten five to 20 years somewhere in there. Okay.

[A]

And if we said.

[B]

Do you hear that?

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

It was this.

[A]

Sorry, the printer. Someone like the page? I like the page. We just don't know. Yeah.

[B]

So then I put, here's our defendant. And I said, here's our witness. And I just wrote their names. I said, they actually say shared the same last name.

[A]

And I said, ironically.

[B]

Yeah, ironically, they were not related. I said, for clarification today, he will be known as his first name here, and she will be as her last name here. So please, let us deliberate.

[A]

And that's how Corey gets voted to be jury foreman. And then secretly, a man at lunch is like, I'd really like to be jury foreman if I could. So, Corey, pass the bar. So now you're in here. And it's interesting because you guys are all trying to sway each other. And people you say are motivated to try to get out of here on.

[B]

Time, they are motivated to get. Some people wanted to be out of there right away because they needed to get back to their job. Some people actually wanted more days off of work. So we're like a menagerie, people of people.

[A]

This is so crazy that. And I'm not standing up for the defendant, but to have 20 years of your life on the line here at the Max punishment, and a guy who wants to go to a fishing tournament is making the call.

[B]

I. I know it's wild.

[A]

Now you can see why the jury pool selection was so important.

[B]

It was important. And I want to say it's important for the jurors, the potential jurors, to tell the truth, because it comes down to someone lied out there, and then they had a moral injustice.

[A]

One of the jurors lied in the jury pull questionnaire. And then they comes into play. Okay, so walk us through.

[B]

Okay, so as we start deliberating, no one said if they think he's guilty or not. They're just saying here's the hard parts that I think that they didn't do well proving, and the big one that we all latch on to was the fact that we never saw if there was an empty beer bottle or a beer can on the counter at this place. And unfortunately, the cops didn't take pictures of the facilities after this whole maybe robbery happened. Okay. So we watched his body cam footage.

[A]

We really didn't have a ton of evidence.

[B]

We didn't have a ton of evidence.

[A]

He had a lot of circumstantial evidence.

[B]

The whole thing was circumstantial. So they said, let's rewatch his body cam footage and see if we can see an empty beer bottle on the bar. Okay, we will rewatch it. Unfortunately, his body camera never goes the full distance of tomorrow. You know when you try to look.

[A]

Around the TV screen? Yes. Come on.

[B]

Yeah. So they're like, well, I don't see. I don't see a beer can there. I said, well, you don't see the whole bar. So you. Of course you can't say that there's no beer can there or not. I'm just. People are saying matter of fact statements, and I'm just having them question it.

[A]

Just a little bit. And this is how we should have let Corey go. And the jury pull questioner. In hindsight, the defense made a mistake choosing you.

[B]

They did make a defense mistake choosing a big old defense mistake.

[A]

So. So you go and you deliberate for how long you think it was?

[B]

Two hours.

[A]

Oh, that's it.

[B]

Yeah. I want to say here's the thing where people were really caught up on. They can't tell that if he drank the beer, but they do believe the waitress that had said she had a pulled gun on her. They believe her on that. And I said, unfortunately, guys, if you believe her that she had a gun pulled on her, which we didn't see, in that she left him a beer on the counter, which we didn't see. And when he left, he was belligerently drunk. Drunk, which we saw. And she has nothing to gain. You can't say, well, I believe her on the gun thing, but I don't believe that she put a beer in front of him.

[A]

She works for Bedwars, just trying to get one over, but that ends up to be the crux of it. Until one juror says, I do believe there is something so minuscule in cost that it should not be penalized, which was the original screening question that she should have raised her hand for.

[B]

She said, on my conscience as a human Being I cannot put this man away for even five years if I don't for over one beer. And I said, well, then that's crazy. She's like, if it was one year. I said, whoa, whoa, whoa. I said, you can't talk about what the definition of the crime is. It's either he did or did not.

[A]

Okay. So she said, if it was a lesser charge, which did the state. The commonwealth. I'm not sure if all states are called commonwealth, but ours, the Commonwealth of Virginia, which the state kind of went off for a bigger bite. And you had said if it had been the brandishing charge, it would have been one year and maybe that would have been easier to sway. But the state wanted to go for the entire punishment because that's what the crime was alleged.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yes. So what's crazy is if he drank the beer, did he steal the beer is the thing.

[A]

But he didn't leave. And that's the interesting part. But he had a firearm. But that wasn't necessarily the charge. Charge was that two components had to be acted.

[B]

The word that people really were hung up on is did he show up with the intent to steal? So the. The word intent is the big word here, because did he intend to steal the beer? Here's the thing. He put a gun to someone's head and said, give me a beer to me, that he intended to take something that was not his under duress, like by threatening someone's life. But I don't think he showed up to the restaurant and wanted to steal a beer. I think it was. And I said, what? I said, the word you're looking for is crime of opportunity. I said, he didn't pace the joint and watch it for five weeks to see when she was there and when the least crowded night is. I said, but the BO are a crime, a crime of opportunity in a crime that's been planned out are both criminal actions.

[A]

Which is why now when you watch these murder documentaries, Murder one intent and murder two non intention are so differently weighed.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So fortunately, go ahead.

[B]

There wasn't intent one, intent two was either he intended to or he intended not to.

[A]

And the wildest part is, had he had. They had a picture of the beer empty and he had crossed the threshold of the restaurant, it would have been more open and closed, but the guy never left.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The beer was never photographed. There was no witnesses outside of the police officers. So all this circumstantial evidence now created a ton of doubt, which the defense, you said, did a pretty good job of Instilling in you guys.

[B]

They did. They did. Except for.

[A]

Not for you, for everybody else.

[B]

Well, here's the thing. Even without the witnesses, if we believe that she had a gun pulled on her and that she put a beer in front of him, he intended to take something that was not his. Whether he took a sip of the beer, whether he threw the beer across the room and hit the wall, he. He intended to take something that was not his. What he did with his intent of the beer. Like a lot of people, if someone, you know, steals a vehicle, they can either abandon it on the side of the road, they can take it to a chop shop. Their intent, whatever they do after their intended crime is on them. So, you know, he could have, you know, poured the beer down his shirt. All the thing. It's still. He intended to do something under the duress of a firearm. So to me, he was gulf, unfortunately.

[A]

But the jury, the judge said, do not exit this room without consensus.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So that's why you guys get hung up and then spend a couple more hours trying to convince each other. Yeah. And then. And then if you guys. Okay, so I'm gonna let the audience decide here how it weighs out. 1, 2, 3. Your decision is. And now Corey revealed to us what the charge was. In the end, he ended up.

[B]

The jury could not come to an. An idea that he was intending to steal a beer. So he ended up just getting intoxication charge and a $25 fine and walked that day wild.

[A]

But okay. And then, you know, Corey called me and she was super frustrated and she was like, this is so crazy that you could pull a gun on somebody, demand something from him, and then get off scot free with a $25 slap on the wrist.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it begs the burden of proof how what the intention was and communication and unfortunately, likability did play a factor in this because he said, I want.

[B]

To say, at the end of the day, we are all humans. And that was the biggest thing is he said, I don't want to be a part of MS.13. Our hearts went out to him. He doesn't want to be a part of MS.13. And he needed a gun, so he didn't join the gang. You know, so you're like humanity.

[A]

Humanity. Right.

[B]

But if you were in the place of the waitress, you would have had a totally different outcome because you had been like, wow, no one's ever held a gun to my head.

[A]

That's why they didn't want waitresses.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Didn't they? Yeah. I think they had some questions on firearms as well to kind of screen people out at the beginning. It was very interesting. Really. The most interesting part of your story to me is that jury pool selection and how they're able to ask those questions to hopefully weed out the people who are too in either direction.

[B]

Yeah. What's, what's so funny is when a baker comes to the sugar cookie marketing group, they are the defense and they.

[A]

Present half of the story, which is, and you know, people get pretty frustrated. Sometimes somebody will come into the group and say, here's what the client, you know, here's what the perpetrator. Here's everything that they did wrong. Here's what I said back. Am I right or wrong? And I'm like, well, you've, you're looking for a jury of your peers to agree with you. But, but we have our opinion on who is right and wrong is irrelevant to what your goal is. So you'll see me often say, like, what do you want from us?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you want us to help you talk this client off the ledge? Do you want us to help you respond to the bad review you're going to get get here? Or do you just want to be validated? Which a lot of it comes down to validation, which isn't necessarily business centric, and that's why those threads get locked. But it's.

[B]

The thing is, when you come to the sugar cookie marketing group, you're talking to a bunch of bakers who know the struggle. They know that that order took you two days to make and you have a biased jury testing.

[A]

Absolutely. They, you should have been struck out of there. So Corey was right. I see you sometimes. Right. Like if I was the client. Here's what that sounds like to me. And you'll see that, you know, I, as a, as somebody who isn't a baker, I would think that you could turn around cookies in a day. I've seen my grandmother bake cookies. It takes about an hour. So why wouldn't I have asked you if you were free there?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But as bakers, we, we get so frustrated and we come to a, I want to say a jury of our peers, a jury of other bakers, which will see it the way that we see it because we want them to side with us. But unfortunately, when it comes to business and it comes to the commonwealth, the state defense, you have to have an unbiased jury. That's why asking someone like, you know, if you have a friend who's not a bake, hey, did I not see this Situation for all it's worth. Here's what I see. Is there a part that I'm missing here? I often ask my husband because he's so such a simple man. He doesn't know baking. He doesn't. He just knows. Matter of fact points. This is what I heard. Here's what I feel. So it's good to ask people who aren't in the same realm as us because they have an outsider's view.

[A]

Well, I think it's an interesting thing you said. This is what I heard, and this is how I feel now. Feelings are relative to individuals, right? So even the baker comes in with all these facts, and we're like 100% right, 100%. Amen. Amen. But how did your client feel? It makes the no, you're a shut and closed case irrelevant because how you feel and kind of in the case you're going, you're like, he was a guy who held a gun to somebody, but he was also this kid who didn't want to be recruited into a violent gang.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that feeling that they were able to do so we can kind of take away from this. You know, it's easy to get mad at clients and say, here's everything I did right and here's everything you did wrong. But what I like to say is like, I couldn't imagine how you felt if you thought this is what I was doing to you. I'm so sorry. And that's why I. You know, someone said sometimes the twins don't say say to not apologize. I think you should apologize like it's free money. I think you should give it away because you get. You're not saying, I'm sorry that I was wrong and you were right. You're saying, I'm sorry that your feeling when it came to your interaction with me was not the one I intended.

[B]

Well, people are combined. When people said, the twins never say say or say sorry, we're saying, you don't have to apologize for under being booked. You don't have to apologize for that because there wasn't an accident that wasn't, oh, oops.

[A]

That wasn't a misunderstanding.

[B]

It wasn't a misunderstanding. When there's a client relationship issue, that's a fine time to apologize. When you're booked, you don't have to apologize. If you can't donate something for free, you don't have to apologize. But if there is a feeling where someone feels wrong, you can say, wow, I'm so sorry you feel that way. I can totally understand where you're coming from.

[A]

Even talking to the therapist, she's like, a lot of people operate. Me, I am. People operate in a binary system or a black and white system where if someone's right, somebody is also wrong. Right as one exists, the counterpoint has to exist. And in your court case, that was kind of it. And that's why we said if the. The commonwealth had gone for a lesser charge, maybe we could have blurred the lines a bit more. But in a bakery, when the client's upset, sometimes people are like, well, if I say sorry, then I have to offer retribution. Like I have to give them. I have to. Not only am I losing my sorry here, I'm also losing additional income. But I must say no. Know there most of life exists in the gray area between black and white. So hey, I'm sorry that you thought I meant this. And here's something small I can do to find us a closer common ground. So nobody's 100 a win, but nobody's 100 a loss. And I think that's why you get. You know, when I see the post and it's this long and there's line breaks and then there's angry faces and it. Then it. It's like it's this thing to get so much validation for other bakers and they're going to get it because of the way they worded.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

I say like, hey, you're thinking you're losing too much here because your worst case scenario is in the resolution of this is maybe 100% refund, but that's not even required. But your actual worst case scenario, if you're 100% right, here is the next post you're going to make is how do I get out of this bad review? Absolutely.

[B]

Because if you say if you discredit their feelings because you are right. Their feelings, unfortunately are the great area. Because if you're right, you would assume they would see what I see, they would agree that I'm right, and then this would all blow over. But because you have to be right, you're discrediting their feelings and feelings aren't.

[A]

Oh, yeah, you proved it.

[B]

Right. Till my feelings are gone. No, my feelings are still there.

[A]

You're right. My feelings. Stupid.

[B]

You right.

[A]

No feeling.

[B]

Yeah. Are if we take this back, if we say, okay, yeah. It comes down to. There's so much communication you have to do at the forefront of your whole process with your clients to avoid this trial by jury at the end of it. So what the commonwealth didn't do, obviously. Well was to prove her point that he did rob her and stole a beer. With your clients, when you know that you can't see the color purple or the customer is giving you vague, vague answers to things and you really need to lock it down, that's when the communication needs to be a lot more. When someone communicates to me and they're like, I had a client this weekend. I'll tell you this. She said, I don't like the color pink. I want it to be a more mo. Rosy mop to match her room.

[A]

Cory's at Gilly's heel is anything that's a light purple. I can't see mom at all.

[B]

But then you say Rosie muff. And then you say, like, her room. I don't know whose room you're talking about. So what I did was because I don't know whose room you're talking about and you assume I know your grandchild's bedroom's color. I sent her a picture of the rosy moth that I had found online. And I said, here's the rosy moth that I found online that I will replicate in your order. Please confirm or deny, because if we can communicate a lot before beforehand, we don't have this little trial by jury at the end.

[A]

Yeah. And so once it gets to the part where we have to have judge, jury, and executioner, it's always an indication to me that something wasn't done ahead of time. And that's why when I said, hey, we love to interview on this in this podcast, Even if it's 10 ways to not do something, you're able to learn from somebody else's misfortune, somebody else's misstep, so that you can implement it before that comes. So Corey and I are teaching a private class because she's making me against my will. Right. I would like to have a judge tell her. So anyways, we have the private class. Well, this is our first private class. And I said, corey, it's interesting. The communication we do before the class will set the tone during the class. Right. So the prerequisites is that the lady had to sell 10 tickets to give her a little elbow room. Corey allowed her to buy to send a private link we created through eventbrite to the individual people, which is a lot better than you have to pay for the 10 tickets up front. And then she has to to go get people to pay her back. Okay, yeah, maybe. Secretly I was hoping she wouldn't sell out the minimum she needed to teach the class. Anyways, she definitely sold out. The class. But yesterday I sent her. So we are. We are 17 days out from class. I'm actually going to just pull up that email real quick because I said, how could I write this email in a way that saves us if something goes left? And I know I've left something out of it for sure. So I sent her an email and I said, hey, Mary, I'm just recapping your class because we are still working ahead of time. Right? Yeah. Nothing has gone wrong yet.

[B]

Right.

[A]

There's. There's a. A balance. Right. There's over communication and too little communication. There's a safe spot somewhere in the middle. So this is kind of how I did it. I love a bulleted list because it draws people attention. I said, hey, Mary, to keep you in the loop on who has signed up and how many tickets are remaining before we can lock this down. Here's what we've got right now. Class Tickets told sold 6 out of 10 DIY tickets sold 1 out of 10 days until October 30th, your final day to remember, reiterating that that day is not the day of her class.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's the last day to order tickets. Because what I don't want to happen. She's like, well, I was gonna sell the rest of those tickets after the 30th.

[B]

Yeah. Because I still have to bake. So there has to be a little forgiving time there where she needs to get her tickets in order. But I also need enough time to bake for whoever's showing up.

[A]

Here's a part where the baker would get in a sticky situation if they assumed someone knew that prep time was going to be a week. And okay, yes, you can make prep time in an hour, but that's not what we wanted.

[B]

We don't want to rush.

[A]

So it said days until October 30th, parentheses the final day to order tickets is 17, and days until your class is 24. As a reminder, we just have to shut down tick or we have to shut down ticket sales seven days prior to class so we can get to prepping supplies. So if you get four folks to get those tickets before the 30th, we are all set. Then I gave her a list of who ordered the tickets so she knew who hadn't. Hadn't signed up yet. Giving her more information to make us money, right? Yeah, that's kind of the goal. And then I said, also attach is an example. This is the part that we're going to get trouble with. I said, it's an example of the place setting. Each attendee will sit in front of a. Would you mind sending us a picture of the space we'll be using at your home? On. We want to make sure we plan accordingly. And she didn't reply to that. She happily replied that she was going to sell out the class.

[B]

But I want to say when she does go back to, to present something into evidence, she will be able to say, oh, shoot, they did ask that. At the end of the day, we don't want to ever get to the point where she's presenting evidence and we're.

[A]

Presenting evidence as a small business owner, and I hate that It's. That's not fair all the time. Yeah, but if our goal is money generation, that's how we win, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. And then when we had to find the compromise in that gray area of less money generation, that's how the bakery loses. Now bakers who get really emotional and I can speak because, like, I get offended too. Like, that's not fair. I, I did everything right and the, the, the client messed it up. You're coming from the wrong place. You're coming from the wrong motivation. You're coming from a morality motivation and not a money generation generating motivation. And I think when you can switch your perspective of what can I do here that still allows me to create a margin of money, then that right or wrong thing kind of takes a backseat. Because you're like, I can still be a little right if money is the indication of how right I was. Right.

[B]

Sure, sure. Oftentimes, when it comes to bakers, someone will be like, I would love to have a private host a private class at my house. And a baker will be like, oh, I'd love that. Let me know whenever you want to. And do you see where you've left it open and ended. Open ending and not locking things down. Not locking. I'm talking to the cop. Not locking the patron down as a witness can come to buy two in a butt. So when someone's like, oh, I would.

[A]

Love to host a class, it would.

[B]

Be a great time to be like, oh, if you can get 10 friends together, we could totally do that. But to say, oh, yeah, I'd love to do that. And then she's like, okay, I have four people. And you're like, well, that's not good enough. I'm not making any money off of you, you get, well, you hurt my feelings. You said you would do a class, and that's why communication is so important. So when you say, yeah, I would love to donate Cookies. When can I expect to put an expiration date on this donation? Right. That's what's important.

[A]

You know, I kind of think the way I word this email, at least I hope it came across that way. It's me and Mary against this made up date that I came up with that she. We're not going to mention that it's me puppeting the dates, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So Mary, I want to make sure we got this for you. That date's coming at us and here's everything you need to know to fill it up. Right. So it's me and her against this date. The date is me. I made up this date on October 30th that she had to have these sold by because of my past experience.

[B]

What we don't want to happen to Mary is we give her the information a month out. You have to have 10 people, Mary. Okay, go, Mary. It gets to October 31st and she only has six people. All right, we're closing it down. You didn't do your job. You didn't get your thing. Now we ever offended. What? I didn't what. And that's why it's good to, to educate as. Before we get to that hard day. That hard that we have to cancel the class. We want to make sure that Mary has the information she needs. So if we end up having to cancel class, it's not out of the blue. And she's not taken to her knees because this class she wanted is canceled. Hey, Mary, you just need four more tickets. You're doing great, girl. If you want to get those four people to lock down, you have 17 more days to do it. Just send them the email again and see if they can just go ahead and do the checkout system.

[A]

When I talk to the therapist or whatever, she's. I'm always like, and that's not fair. And she's, she's like, but what's. What's behind you thinking that's not fair? I was like, I don't know. Cause it's not fair. And she's like, no. What's behind that? What's behind that? And having to cancel Mary's class means she has to shame facedly turn to four people and say, I don't have a lot of friends. I promised you a good time. I can't deliver. And I'm embarrassed by that. So oftentimes we. Because that's so hard to be that vulnerable with people. Anger is the first line of defense.

[B]

Well, and also shifting the blame. Guys, I wanted the class. They canceled on it.

[A]

They didn't tell me that even how many people had signed up.

[B]

Up.

[A]

So, okay, when I write this email, I say, what are the things I can get in front of that I can kind of predict? What are ways I can be on Mary's side? After I sent this email, Mary's like, girls, don't even worry about it. I actually have a wait list. So you can see she's really proud. You can see proud. Pride is a feeling. She's very proud that she's able to fill up this class because she's so friendly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or she's popular. Whatever it is. Right. Whatever their motivations are. So when you think about. In terms of dealing with clients in. In the right or wrong, a lot of it exists in this blurry gray area. And you, your client. Sometimes I was like, wow, I'd love to have your client in here and have them write their autobiography of this experience, because it's going to always lie somewhere in the middle just for the fact that the clients don't have a baking brain and the baker has a baking brain. So you're operating off of a different knowledge base.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Right. But I like to. I like to write things in terms of. If I had to present this in a court of law, would I be embarrassed of the judge reading it?

[B]

What's so funny is a lot of times when I see a customer lambast a business in a local community group, they will screenshot the communication they had with that business and put it out.

[A]

For all to see.

[B]

So while you think that you are talking to one person, think that if this is shared on social media, this could reach thousands.

[A]

And. And to that point. And this is my own personal opinion, so you can turn this one off. I know. Chat, gtp, GPT. Which. The GPT input. Which one. Pt, pt. They weren't the same. E. Sounds okay. I know a lot of times they say, I don't know if you can. If there's a thing. And make this sound like a lawyer wrote it. And it sounds extremely technical. I. I've always called it lawyer speak. And Corey's ex husband only commutes, communicates.

[B]

Therefore thou shalt not right.

[A]

And while the. The information is accurate, lawyer speak escalates the severity of it. So if I could say, Mary, it has been determined that you are four tickets away from having this class.

[B]

Otherwise you will forfeit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Your day.

[A]

And I feel like when you feel wronged, but you're trying to be on the same side of the client. But you. But you're like, I'm going to make them feel small. Lawyer speaks a great way to do that. Because you're like, well, I don't care if they read it in a court of law. Yeah, no, no doubt.

[B]

You want to be like the officer and hand. Oh, buddy. Oh, pow.

[A]

To de. Escalate a situation. Escalate.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because again, you can be right on every count and still get the bad review and still. Still get the post. And what I tell people is you may not ever realize the impact of this angry client because you'll never be in their private conversations. You. Everyone talk. You know, I've talked about it in the past couple years. That car got worked on. I've never left him a bad review. They have a lot of fanboys, and I don't want to be bullied myself, but gosh darn it, in the privacy of a conversation over a restaurant, I'm going to tell you, that was a terrible experience.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And they have no concept. The funniest part is the man that runs that company is my friend. Friend on Facebook. So he has no clue that I say, yeah, I really tried to. You know, I spent a lot of money with this company. Everyone likes and hear who they are. And here's my experience. He'll never know that the work he's losing is because I was never made whole. Yeah.

[B]

So what Heather's saying is, you don't know who you're talking to, and we don't know who they know. So while Heather isn't like a robust person on social media where she's going to lay a bastard company, I tell you, in every Tuesday lunch that me and Heather go to, she will bring up the fact that.

[A]

But she was swindled and she would.

[B]

Never go back to them.

[A]

So Heather, because. And this is what's happening to clients as well. Every time I turn on the air conditioner and it blows hot. And I had. I always remember they spent $2,500 to have that rebuilt, quote, unquote, to blow ice cold. So I'm constantly. And then with your clients, every time that birthday comes up where they had that order with you, they'll have that feeling every year, be like, oh, you remember that time I got this thing?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Terrible. And the baker's so rude to me.

[B]

And you as a baker have hundreds of clients. So one client out of hundreds, that's mad. You're not even going to give a. A second thought. But they. You could be their only baker they hire this entire year. So the bad taste you've left in their mouth. That's a bigger pun for you can be long in the tooth and it can come years after years because you're the only baker they worked with. Whereas you're like all these clients, they've been so happy with me, just this one person. So whatever.

[A]

Like if we go to a restaurant and have a subpar experience, I'm never going to leave a review about it, but I'll never go back. So it's a long term loss. But okay, so imagine that if, if any. Everybody who ordered from me, and that's what we did a podcast on a couple of weeks ago is why don't you have returning clients? And I think sometimes it comes back to something like this where when something goes wrong, you're so quick in the black binary. Right wrong that you fail to see the long term cost again because your motivation is kind of, kind of one for morality and not necessarily from money. And I think that if you put the shoes on of the other person and had to argue their case against you, you'd be kind of see like well, it's not as cut and dry as I thought it was.

[B]

Yeah, I see back through my emails I can see where they interpreted that just a tinge bit wrong or you.

[A]

Know, I intended to send them an email and I didn't get around to it. And that may. I'm still, I still did right by myself but that would have really helped this situation. So yeah, something to keep in mind that takes us through the court case. Wildly interesting.

[B]

Hopefully. I hope I'm never on jury duty ever again. That was actually draining for me.

[A]

Corey was so angry for the last week. She was like I said you're doing the podcast. She's like, they were wouldn't want to hear me right now. They wouldn't want to hear me right now. So you guys had asked to listen to that recap and that is what that was. Now actually let's move along here because we're taking up a lot of their time.

[B]

Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.

[A]

Corey said us telling you that you should sign up for the cookie college is not as motivating as a witness. I tell you, I want to say.

[B]

When you hear it from the mouths.

[A]

Of these babes, when you hear from.

[B]

Me and Heather, of course we're going to be biased. Guys, why is my life just a.

[A]

Very full now we're gonna be biased.

[B]

Because we made it. So I said let, let them hear from people who have been there and done that.

[A]

So Cora made a post in the cookie College Facebook group, which you get when you sign up for that tier, that member. And she was like, hey, I be full disclosure, I'm a big person. If you're gonna scratch my back, let me scratch yours. If you give us an honest review and we read it on the podcast, you get a 10Amazon gift card. So please understand if you want to see, they're biased. They could be biased by the $10 gift card, but this is their honest reviews. They're allowed to rate it on a scale of allowed to say which parts they liked and which they didn't. I'll never read to you the bad ones. I will. But here's this one. So I'm going to just read this. So the Cookie college dot com. Just a backstory. The cookie college is these five memberships we offer. They're all geared towards marketing your basically sugar cookie business. It's if you are like, well, I, I sell band Aids. I'm not sure this is the best fit for you, but if you sell baked goods, it's going to be. But it's always geared towards marketing. In business, this is simple treats. So I'll reach out to you with your 10 gift card. Ms. Sawyer. And she says if you're looking. So the question is, if you had a right three sentence statement about the cookie college, what would you say? And she says, if you're looking for a more refined baking marketing page of people walking the same path as you, this is it. These people are who are truly invested in growing their business the best it can be. And the lessons, the topics and the conversations are more narrowed down and focused. And I like that review because what she's saying is everyone who signed up there is in the same space. I would like to make more money selling online in my sugar cookie bakery business.

[B]

The thing about the sugar cookie marketing group is there's, there's hobby people, there's people who baked and then quit, there's people who are taking maternity leave, there's people putting on the back burner. There's all, there's people even thinking about selling and they haven't sold yet. So the sugar cookie marketing group is a myriad of people. There's people at different angles of their business. Business or they're not in a business. The cookie college is people who are in business.

[A]

Yeah. So kind of think about it in other terms of like if I wanted, okay, that car I keep talking about, right? It is a 1995 Generation 1 Dodge Viper. Its quirks are only known by people with the exact same car. Now Gen one, because they have five generations of that car. The guy with the fifth generation doesn't know that the generation one doesn't have good air conditioning. So any tips and tricks he offers me me, I'm like, okay, thank you, but no thank you. You don't understand the battle I fight sweating through my clothes. Right. The same when you join a big group on marketing and sales. Love it. But the person who's selling a car isn't going to have the same questions or a process as somebody selling cookies. So that's why I think people really like that Facebook group because they can go and everyone there has had the same life experiences down to the exact product being sold, so they know the exact method they took to. To help the situation.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

So if you like to sign up for the cookie college and be judged by a jury of your peers, go to the cookie college.

[B]

I'm ready to judge, guys. Got some, some judging under my belt.

[A]

I just did the. I do it every second Monday of the month. The get to know your membership 101. And the biggest complaint we hear about the membership of the college is there's just too much here. It's so much. I feel overwhelmed because I don't know which so. And I want to tell you that that's the benefit and also the determination tractor is there's so much there. But all you need is to find the things that work for you and implement those. And if that changes and shifts throughout your membership, great, then we'll focus on this other part. But the thing is there's something there for everyone. What was Ms. Sawyer's things that she.

[B]

Found that were useful in the cookie college? I know that I think you said that was a question.

[A]

She said you had a choice between I think 10 or 12 different options of things that we offer. And I said, which what is the cookie college helped you with? She says, cookie classes, organization, social media and community. Community building. And then I said, sort the features that you use most frequently. And she chose the Facebook group and the class kits. So again, that Facebook group is where she's going and that's why her. Her three. Three sentences pitch you on the Facebook group because that's where she's getting a lot of help and then teaching those classes, which is a, a different membership itself, but it's included in our highest tier as well.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So I really like that. I said what was one. Well, what would you say was one of the biggest aspects of your bakery that the cookie college helped with? And she Said social media post and social media management, which I think is interesting.

[B]

That's great though that a lot of us get most of our business from social media. So Facebook, Instagram, things like that. So if that's the angle that you want to take your marketing, where your forefront of the business is, your social media presence, it's you got to balance between how do I sell to them, but also how do I create a community on there, how do I get them to buy my stuff but then in between buy them stuff, not leave because you know their birthday already came and left and they're not going to what, want me for a whole 365 more days. How can I keep them in the fold? Keep them in the line. So when they do need a baker or when someone asks about the baker, I'm the first thing that comes to mind. And that's where people who use their Facebook page as the number one selling tool, that's what they have to master that that very much. It's a song and dance. How do I sell and how do I keep them engaged?

[A]

And not to bring it all the way back to the podcast topic, but you can turn people into your advocates or you can turn people into your enemies on social media and they will.

[B]

Hold that torch forever. I want to tell you social media followers can be die hards. They can be your biggest lead source. You can have people recommend you do who never have bought from you, met you in real life and only follow you on social media. They're your ride or dies, right? Or dies.

[A]

And Corey has a couple of those and she honestly waters them a lot because she said this person brings me so many more leads than they cost cost me in this free stuff that I give them. And by all means I agree. I'm going to pull up my other email and we're going to go to the STL me about it. Sponsored by Cookie Design Lab, which if you are in our digital downloads membership. I use that software to create the free STL cutter file and it is just a neat in the cookie. I was just actually talking about it. We have a no sales rule in all the groups so Cookie Design Lab can't really sell themselves. But everyone was saying really good things about how easy it was to use.

[B]

Yeah, Heather just gave me a cutter the other day and it was nice.

[A]

Because it said it had DD for.

[B]

Digital downloads and then it said ghost. So I know when I see that cookie cutter and I'm looking for how do I design its face again it's with the Digital downloads, and its shape is a ghost. So my Halloween box.

[A]

Yeah, I love a naming convention. Okay, we have four texting questions. If you want to text in to be entered to win a month of Cooking design lab, you can text in 571-5-56-56-44. Or if you're on, like, Spotify, you can click the text in a question button that said one of these four people. And if also I had to tell everybody, you know, that one texter enter that had been asking us questions but never won. She actually did win two weeks ago because she texted in twice. So we had read her questions, but she also had won that one. So now you can all say, goodness. I was like. So she texted in. She's like, it's to let you know that was me. I won. So that was great. So we have four texts to choose from.

[B]

Number four.

[A]

I'll never choose number one.

[B]

Oh, wait. Oh, wait. Number one.

[A]

You say?

[B]

I never choose number one.

[A]

Number one, could you pretty please stl us about how Mr. Munch is doing? We'd love to hear our favorite mascot has been up to lately. Sincerely, the podcast Cat Appreciation. You know, unfortunately, maybe. Are our animals a product of their parents, their parenting? Is my son, Munch the cat? If you guys don't know, Munch is a cat. They're called Munchkin Cats, and I just named him Munch because he kind of acted like that. But they're. They just have short front legs, but everything else is normally shaped on them, so it's. It's kind of. It's not like a defect or anything. They live happy, long lives with. His parents are 18.

[B]

He is. He suffers from being the most annoying cat on the planet, though he meows a lot.

[A]

He's very, very vocal. And sometimes my sisters say he's just meowing to hear himself. He's not necessarily. Oh, yeah, we froze. It's just when there's a lag on either of our connections, it's gonna freeze.

[B]

But.

[A]

But the audio should continue, hopefully.

[B]

Okay. Mr.

[A]

Munch is doing great. Corey saw him this morning. I was actually watching them. I have these cameras around the house. I like to watch people. You were watching me, and I could see him. He was meowing at it. And I said, give that man a treat.

[B]

Did. I did. But he meowed incessantly to get attention. So I was talking to my grandmother, how are you doing?

[A]

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he's like, believe that. Munch can't tell me and Cory apart. So when he sees me, he's like that's my mom.

[B]

What was so funny was when I walked in he was scared because someone was walking into the house. So he went to caboodle away but right before he turned the corner he stopped and his whole little munchkin body.

[A]

Squished because he wanted to see me. So he was like this and he saw me and he was like, oh.

[B]

I think I know that lady.

[A]

Would you get a munch yourself?

[B]

I am now a catless home. I would in a day different life. I think I have. I. I don't think I will ever be prepared for another cat. But he is fun. He is very annoying though. Very high maintenance. A high maintenance boy. Yeah.

[A]

But someone called him a scaredy cat the other day and I think he just, you know, I do sometimes you see that people are like my dog only likes women. I feel like my cat only likes women and hates men.

[B]

I think because after me so short. Unfortunately, because he can't jump like other regular cats, he can't get away from things. So he has to always be scared that he could be stepped on because he's literally foot length.

[A]

He is. So he's always screwing around and he likes to run and play. But a blast of a pet. Actually another texting question. Okay, so I'm so sorry Ms. Munchkin Cat Appreciation Society. Email me at heathersugarcookie marketing.com and I'll set you up with the cookie design lab. A really fun little software after I forgot how to give that other the other winners one away because that she had nominated someone else because she doesn't make her own cutters.

[B]

But one feedback for you, just real quick. Every time you put your hand in front of the camera, it's thinking about focusing on your hand and then on you.

[A]

So stop talking with your hands. That is a hard thing to do. Birdie, hands down by my side. Like my mom said we had to add a Vendy Blendy segment which is the next text in question. Not a winner. But first in my heart, how can I encourage baker friends who do not have a business to join the Vendy Blendy for deals? That's a good one.

[B]

So you don't need to be a business. You don't need to be a business. This is literally baking supplies. So if you, you bake and you like supplies while you're baking, this is.

[A]

The place for you.

[B]

It's not business driven, I promise.

[A]

I would tell, I would tell them. If you're talking like friends or family who like to make cookies, I'D be like, hey, here's. There's a spreadsheet. I would just send them the spreadsheet and you'll have the spreadsheet when you join that marketing or the Vendee blendy group that day trying to explain to somebody and they're in 24 hours and then it's deleted. There's these kooky twins and then they post things in their door prize that unless you say I want your help to win the door prizes. I think it's a little overwhelming to pitch somebody. Somebody who isn't a marketing bakery selling stuff.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I think, hey guys, here's the list. This list is active for 24 hours. There's a bunch of discount codes. I think it'd be good if you wanted to stock up on some supplies. Here's the shops I'd recommend shopping with. Yeah, if I hear that there's a discount code, I'm going to check it out. I want to see what's on sale.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

But to give you guys a recap for the Vendee bunny, Corey and I said this week starts the beginning of the vending blending blendy spam. We have 39 returning vendies I'll be opening this week to new vendors or new shops or shops that haven't done the Vendee blendy before. And then we have over 1600 people pending which is right on target for the goal. And now we're gonna gear in. Please. The roller coaster is about to do. You know what's so funny? Every time I hold my thumb up like a thumbs up, it's trying zoom. It's trying to tell me, do you want to react with a thumb up?

[B]

That's so funny. I heard that people do that and.

[A]

It'S not showing on my hand. It's. It's not. I didn't also send it to you. So you don't.

[B]

What if I do a thumb down?

[A]

Did. Is it offering you one?

[B]

It's not offering me either.

[A]

Or let me react. I'm going to give you a thumbs up. Did you see the thumb?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

You're floating.

[B]

You're floating up the screen with it.

[A]

Look. It's telling on me that, oh, she did that. Thumbs up. Yeah. It's your first one you're going to get. Your last one you're going to get. So yeah, the Vendy Bundy is a one day sale. Cost nothing to join. It actually costs the shops to pay to sell to at a discount for 24 hours. It is a blast. If People have done it last year. They always say I'm back this year. I had no idea how much how much fun it would be to spend.

[B]

Yeah, a blast blast.

[A]

You can check out more about that going to sugarcookiemarketing.com Vendy Blendy. Have a countdown there and everything.

[B]

I just took off my shoes. I wonder if you can hear that in the feedback.

[A]

No. Zoom does a pretty good job of removing external audio.

[B]

I wonder but if I'm hearing me take off the shoes, does that mean.

[A]

You know what's great? No. I haven't heard you take off your shoes. When you even laugh so high pitched it mutes you on land.

[B]

So rude.

[A]

Thank you, Zoom. Last question. I'll read. Hello, my two favorite twins. Don't make me choose. I love you both. Can you please make saying okay. Can you please make saying cute al magutal a requirement for every podcast? Cutele. I think you said cuto. Yes. I hope this VIP question ends me wins me an awesome prize. Not this time. That's hilarious though. You cute aoodle you. That's your phrase. I think that's the first time I ever said the word cutle magoodle. I've never seen it written out like that.

[B]

That's hilarious.

[A]

Cutow magoo tau even has dashes cute dash al magoo dash towel maguto. Hilarious. So anyways, that takes us through the STL me about it segment. If you didn't win but you still want to buy Cookie design Lab, you can actually buy it for seven days, which is a really discounted thing. And you can use code twins to get 15% off on that. Now they're coming out with some new features you receive telling me about some stencil type stuff and everything. But it's a really, really simple, easy to use way to make cookie cutters. And if you're getting into I think right now bamboo, the printer I have is running a ton of sales on filament, but they do run a sale on printers on Black Friday. So definitely the two. What I'd be asking for for Christmas if I didn't have a 3D printer is one of those bamboo A1 minis. Probably if I was just going to print cookie cutters.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Okay. Cory and I decided to add a new segment in addition to people being interviewed on the podcast to each pick our fav post of the week. Made in the sugar cookie marketing or the cookie college group or the baking group. So Corey has her pick. Let's hear it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Of course it was sitting there ready.

[B]

To go the entire time. And now it has boopled me out of it.

[A]

But mine are still I found it. I found it.

[B]

This is from Heather. She says Reasons I love this group the cookie college in my local community which is number 745. That's the area code for Texas. It says Too long Didn't rain Today I lived a baker's worst nightmare of a forgotten order. But in the end, only happy tears were shed because of what I've learned from those mentioned above. A lady rang my doorbell about noon today and she said she was here to pick up a cake. Unfortunately, I didn't have any orders on my calendar for today. Cue the panic. She proceeds to show me the confirmation email on her phone and I know exactly what the order is.

[A]

An easy one.

[B]

Thankfully that got lost in the shuffle while I was switching my websites. I immediately put my SCM hat on to figure out what I can do to fix the the situation. They're not celebrating until later tonight so I have time to bake and decorate it and I offer to deliver so she doesn't have to drive to me again. I want to go above and beyond because I feel so bad about her having driven all the way to me to leave with nothing. So while the cake is baking, I reach out to a local friends for advice and they suggest a handwritten note with a half refund, which I happily do. By six o' clock the cake is finished and I'm on my way to deliver. She happily accepts the cake and is grateful I brought it to her. A little while later she messaged me to say that the cake is delicious but that she won't accept a refund.

[A]

Great.

[B]

She is a small business owner too and understands that mistakes can be made. She's happy that the cake made it on time and it did exactly what she wanted. Thank you so much to all those who had given advice to prepare me for a situation like today. I'm grateful I had the tools at my disposal to turn what could have been a very unhappy customer into one one for life.

[A]

That's a great one. And I'm not even sure I'm that good of a person to have done all of that with a happy heart. But I know Heather Campbell Berkshire has never had a bad day in her life, so she's capable of it. She's also the Disney trip planner and the quintessential Disney adult.

[B]

Whatever she was made with, she's made with sugar and spice and like everything.

[A]

Here's the interesting part. This is a Weird analogy. As a weird correlation. Ruthanne, we have. Ruthanne is our grandmother and our cousin Jason loves Fourth of July. He has deemed it his holiday. Right. So he's, he spearheads it. He'll come to our house and he wants to set off fireworks that are illegal in Virginia. Right. Because they're loud and they're obnoxious. Okay. So she will go to each neighbor and say, hey, are you okay with this? Now? Even if they were or weren't okay with it, she's an adorable almost 90 year old lady. And they're like, absolutely. In fact, we're going to pull out chairs and watch with you guys. And again, like, everyone was so okay with it. And I said, it's interesting because had you not asked, they would be frustrated that somebody's doing something that they, they didn't approve of. But because you ask, because you offer, because you give them a voice, they are able to let that energy of. Like, that's so frustrating that those, you know, I have a dog and his fireworks are annoying and they're scaring my pets. They're able to say like, oh, it's not a big deal, it's fine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I said, had you not, that animosity would have kind of festered there if somebody wasn't happy about it. And who knows what their true motivation was.

[B]

And now she's not doing these fireworks on February 24th randomly in the middle of the night. Like, so people know, like July 4th is when all of Northern Virginia seems to be setting off all the insane fireworks. So now it's actually where they actually come out and enjoy it.

[A]

And now the whole street stopped buying fireworks and we just look at these for about 20 minutes. But yeah, it's kind of like offering the refund allows that person who's been wronged in the situation with Heather. You know, I'm a small business owner too. Don't even worry about it.

[B]

No.

[A]

Is that my grandmother?

[B]

I'm almost done.

[A]

Toby. I'm sorry. Walk around real quick. Okay. Say hi.

[B]

Jason, come here real quick. She says, come and say hi. She said that you're our other granddaughter. Who's my other granddaughter? Hello.

[A]

Hi, G. Look at those flowers in the bag. Gams is so nosy.

[B]

Are you okay?

[A]

Yeah, she looks fine. Hi, Gams.

[B]

I love you.

[A]

So great example of. That's Ruthanne, by the way, the evil firework lady. Great example of how getting in front of something and still finding the common ground. Remember, she didn't do a full refund, she did a half refund. And then the client still wouldn't accept it. But she really did her best to acknowledge the pain that the client went through, the disappointment, and then to find a solution. Yes, it puts Heather out, but it's a better solution than both people being put out with bad experiences, right? Both with Baker and the client. My. My post of the week was my own. No, I did we do this once a year and I typically do around September, finding the average sale price of one dozen simple decorated cookies. And you guys are pretty great at following the rules. So we had over, I think, a thousand people voting with data. 1024 Comments of what people? And again, dirty math. Subjective. What is considered simple to Corey may not be simple to Baker.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Or somebody who's got 20 years in this thing will think Cory's an idiot. Right? So this is just the average. And here is what I'm going to read. Drumroll please. After 8 hours of collecting 1024 comments not deleted by folks not following the rules from group users, the current average price per dozen for a simple design set is $53.43. Okay, so some additional data that people like to read. The average of all that was $53.43 but the median was $57.50 and the mode was $60. Right. So the minimum that somebody had charged in this was $24 and the maximum somebody charged for a simple dozen was a hundred. So again, that shows you that this data is all over the map. We have people from really high cost of living areas like Southern California and the people from rural America who are lower cost of living areas. So someone had asked me actually an interesting question. They'd said can you make a thread where everyone post what a simple dozen is to them? And it was widely varied through we'll.

[B]

Never get like how much is the person down the street charging from you? And like so what we can do from this information is from that if you are below the national average, you could think about maybe raising your prices. If you are so much higher above the national average and you're not making sales, maybe you need to adjust your pricing for it.

[A]

Right? Because the motivation for people to raise their prices could be inflation or it could be, you know, the run on eggs that we had and they didn't self correct historical data. In September 2024. That was a year ago when I took this poll, the average was $51.63. So we've increased from last year to this year by a dollar and 81. Again, all real dirty math.

[B]

I want to say though right on the increase because we know the pricing.

[A]

Of ingredients have increased.

[B]

Yeah. So I can hope that people are raising their prices to according accordingly the December 2022.

[A]

So again, this is over. This is four years ago. Three years ago was $47.73. So we've increased by $5.71 per simple dozen since then. And then August 2021 was $41. So we've seen since August 2021. And again, the group has grown as well. Prices have changed, economics have changed. That's been a $12.26 increase.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

@ least it's going up to match, you know, and inflation is increasing and things are changing and people are getting more experience. There could all be indicators of the reason why that has increased.

[B]

Sure. Interesting.

[A]

Interesting data though. I'll be curious if it ever goes down. I will be curious. I don't think it will. The Federal Reserve lowered its interest rate, which will lower the cost of borrowing money. And I'd be curious if that because really when we started, the cookie marketing group was the year of COVID and the interest rate was below 2%. Right. It was. It was the cheapest money to ever buy. But that creates inflation. So every year we've taken this poll, inflation has increased. So if inflation ever goes down, I'll be curious if these prices ever correct. I do want to say, not saying.

[B]

Sugar cooking marketing did this, but before the world of sugar cookie marketing, I was in other baking groups and a lot of those groups have also come and gone. It's been 5ish over 5 years. So what was funny is it used to be a race to the bottom. If you want to get more clients, you charge a less amount of money to more clients. Undermined everyone around you. Charge less, make more clients. But then all these people were just getting burnt out. So when Heather actually right before we started trigger cookie marketing, I said, this can't be right.

[A]

I said money making cookies, I'm making them for free. Paying people to eat. Also I want to add, and I'm not saying that sugar cookie marketing had anything to do with this, but I'd like to say that's the messaging we always send is the messaging that you're new here and you're not good, so you shouldn't be able to charge. What I charge is not a mathematical strategy. Right. There is a minimum price at which you can charge and still be a profitable business. So whether you're new or whether you're 10 years in or you're two months in, there has to be margin. Be able to be able to reinvest back in that business to create the better quality product. And that's why, you know, you know, we do allow the, you know, what should I price this at Question. But it is comes down to a, an actual math problem, not a subjective. Here's what I feel feel that's worth. Here's what I think you should minimum be worth. And maybe we can feel on that. That percentage of profit.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. And that's where you hear a lot of businesses talk like my margins are razor thin or I have big margins on this one item. The margins is what your business will live or die by. You can't have zero margin because you will die as a business because we know that your website isn't free to edit your photos, that software isn't free. So if you're always in the negative, eventually the business will close down.

[A]

You also be miserable. Right. It was interesting. You know, we always talk about the gas station by my grandmother's house. Brian was in town and he looked up and the gas station is. Has so many cars in it that they're pouring out into the street. And he said, must be cheap gas. And I said that's exactly why. Because the gas is so cheap, they're always booked. And it's because they're always so full. I actually do not go to that gas station anymore as much as I'd like to. So they're the invisible hand of the market will always deny, determine how we're going to raise our prices. Because what's happening is now that's overflowing into the travel lanes, getting upset. So they're going to have to figure how would they limit how many people are coming in, raise their prices.

[B]

Absolutely. That is how it goes.

[A]

Or they'd not raise their prices and they'd have to hire somebody that tells cars to turns away cars. Which one do you think they're going to do? Lose money or make money?

[B]

Make money.

[A]

Mike Morning is one hand in the market, guys. Yeah. That takes us to our podcast sponsors which we're working on rejuing this up and having the podcast sponsors actually leave us voice messages to play. But we haven't done that yet. So we're going to go to. I'm going to make this interesting. I'm going to give you a color theme. I want you to guess the podcast sponsor and their code. I know you think I'm going to make this easy. Okay, this one is, is going to be purple.

[B]

Purple. I mean their logo is A.

[A]

Violet purple. Is that Viking crossing? Their code is Twins10. Then it could be cookies. It is not. It is. Daisy makes. Oh, my goodness.

[B]

Find it.

[A]

I think she was pink.

[B]

It's.

[A]

Well, I'm sorry. You also can't really see purple, so maybe it is pink. It's a. It's a violet reddish purple.

[B]

Isn't it like fuchsia.

[A]

Fuchsia.

[B]

Okay. I didn't.

[A]

Couldn't even think of the word.

[B]

It's in the realm of pink.

[A]

Okay. This one's logo, I just want to.

[B]

Say what Daisy makes is. Is molds for cake pops. So if you're looking for an easy step into cake pops, this is the way. No longer are cake pops just these round, big old bulbous cakes. Chocolate on them. They can be themed out so she has different shapes that she drops. She does a lot of partnership. The ghost. The ghost bat one that she has right now. Super stinking cute for Halloween.

[A]

It's so funny. She's made state cake poppers.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So Florida and Jersey right here. And they have the day of the Dead cake poppers. And then they Thanksgiving leftover themed cake poppers. So you really think it's an interesting shape? Yeah, it's the platter and it's the turkey body. And it's.

[B]

People are just so talented with them, how they make them.

[A]

Okay. This company's logo is a dark. No, it's a blue Primera. Primera technology. They don't have a discount code, but they do have an event coming up. So Primera is the Eddie printer and the Freddy frosting printer. Kind of. Would you call that frosting flutter? It's a direct to food printer. The Eddie one. Corey loves it, swears by it, and we don't have a Freddy yet, but it's pretty cool. I've seen some members of the cookie college have it and it will. You just leave your cookie on this tray and the whole machine will flood the cookie. And then you essentially could transport that to your Eddy tray and Eddie would print the cookie.

[B]

I know, it'd be crazy. If you want to see them in action, they have a meetup that's going down in Orlando in January.

[A]

January. And I think they still have tickets available and I think they even have vendor spots available. So go to primera.com to look for that or join their Facebook group. Okay, this one is interesting because I. I don't believe you ever looked up their website because they. Even though they give you you a free yearly membership, you're so.

[B]

I just know because I haven't set up my 3D printer yet. It's Cookie Design Lab.

[A]

Cookie Design Lab. And that's what is a sponsor for the STL me about it segment. So you can use Code twins to save 15% on that. And I do really like that they have that weekly offer if you're not big into printing cutters, but you do want to do it every here, here and there, that's probably a great option.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. This one, their logo is another. This lot of purples here. This is a. A purple logo. The code that they offer is favorite twin.

[B]

I want to say Baking Me Crazy.

[A]

Baking Me Crazy, which is a supply shop. And they're back for the Vendy Blendy this year, which means they have to offer at least 25% off. I want to say Design Lab.

[B]

Okay. I want to say, though, for making me crazy, I have a lot of people in this community group asking for DIY kits. If you need sprinkles for diy, why kits? You want to stock up now and stock up for a discount because those are what make those kits cute.

[A]

True, true, true. Yeah. So maybe tell someone. This company's logo is a mix of two different oranges. Orange colors. Their code is Code Twins.

[B]

Tell me.

[A]

Marine pattern. Oh, yeah. Robot royal badge.

[B]

I think that's pink. Pink and orange.

[A]

Orange. Oh, I don't believe it's okay. I don't know. You guys can go to Royal. You can go to bakeitybake.com. my whole computer is freezing. I can't get that away. I need to go back to the website. Girl that's orange. Her whole branding is orange. The background of her bag is pink.

[B]

Yeah, the bag is pink.

[A]

And wearing the bag, she did do a little rebranding. I don't know if you've seen that. Now Royal batch is super groovy looking. A groovy looking text. But they'll be in the Vendee Blendy as well. Last but never least is is Bosch. They're not technically a sponsor, but they're running a sale right now. And if you use Code Sugar Cookies at checkout, they'll give you $20 off, $100 off sale to get a Bosch mixes, and then it gives us $20 off, which we use to run the ads for the Bendy Blendy. So you win and we win. And that's the only reason why I say that. I'm sorry. Royal batch used to be pink the bag and now it's orange. She should be next time then. That would be why I'll let you slide on that one.

[B]

Thank God.

[A]

Now, last up towards twin Trust, Twin dress. Do you have a 20 interest? Yes. So my grandmother has one of those Dyson stick vacuums, which you always say, those stick vacuums, they're never great, they lose suction. You know, the, the goat vacuum is always the.

[B]

I want to say the stick vacuum is great for hardwood floors.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not necessarily deep carpets, deep carpet, high pile carpet or whatever, but she got one of those Dyson vacuums a couple years ago. And it doesn't matter how clean Ruthanne is one clean, clean little lady. It doesn't matter how clean you are, that Dyson will suck. It will find the dust and it will suction it and I'm impressed by it. I know Shark has some other options and Dyson is really expensive in my opinion for a vacuum, but I said I will figure out a way to save my red cents to buy a Dyson vacuum. Just how impressed it was. So I bought one the other day for myself and wow.

[B]

Just.

[A]

I mean, you just think you're a clean person and then you vacuum and you're like, what, Barbara Barbarian lives here? Because I didn't think it was me so wildly impressed with this one. So now Dyson has one that has a wider head for carpets to cover more surface area so you don't have to do so many back and forth. And then it also tells you, this one had the HEPA filter, which if you have allergies, you're big into air filters and air purifiers. This one is the one that sucks the dust out of the air, saying.

[B]

That'S why I have air purifiers.

[A]

Mine.

[B]

Even though I did talk the majority of the podcast.

[A]

As far as hunters go, I have.

[B]

A. I have had started a list, fall things to do to feel fall.

[A]

I saw that list today.

[B]

Yeah. So I just want to go over.

[A]

The things on the list.

[B]

I'm going to go over the things that I've done so far.

[A]

Corey thrives in the last three months of the year.

[B]

I do. And I said, you know what? It always escapes me. The fall season escapes and I can't let it escape through my little fingers. This time I don't think I must enjoy fall. So burn fall candles. Me and Heather stocked up on fall candles this year. Been burning the poo poo out of them. Just been burning candles right and left. Even yesterday I didn't light a candle. My husband says it's been nine hours and a candle has not been lit. I said, you're right.

[A]

Candles and I hate the soot that they create, but they really add an ambiance.

[B]

They do.

[A]

And it smells sets of stage.

[B]

Decorate for Halloween. I do do this every year.

[A]

Do another poo poo joke. But did you decorate for Halloween?

[B]

I decorate inside.

[A]

Inside?

[B]

Yeah. So I can truly enjoy it. Everyone else can go and do their own Halloween decorations. Watched Sabrina the Teenage Witch. This is more my home. The throwback. Yeah, a throwback. Watch Gilmore Girls. This is more fall. And honestly, this is my first watch through Gilmore girls. And at 36, that must be a crime against humanity.

[A]

Did you. Do you like it?

[B]

I really do like it.

[A]

Really do. Like, wow.

[B]

Paint your own pottery. Fall thing.

[A]

Did you get them?

[B]

Not yet, but I will.

[A]

It's closed yesterday.

[B]

They're closed on Mondays.

[A]

Oh, I Forgot. All of AAN closes on Mondays, and.

[B]

It was only open 12 to 4 on Sunday, and I didn't get that. Okay, so we did do paint your own pottery. Me and Heather did and that. And we and her made little tiny pumpkins. Fall walks. I've walked the fall and now I have to walk now. Now the chi. The trees are changing.

[A]

But what's the weather? Because I feel like it's been real hot.

[B]

It's been really, really rainy.

[A]

Okay, the next weather. Sorry.

[B]

Today.

[A]

71, 74, 67.

[B]

66.

[A]

66 degrees on Friday.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sorry.

[B]

Deed says thanks for the donuts.

[A]

Oh, very nice. I bought donuts this morning.

[B]

Okay, fall walks is done. And I went to the pumpkin patch. Me and Arch did one Saturday. On Sunday. It was a blast.

[A]

How much did you spend on pumps?

[B]

We spent $32 and there were 79 cents a pound. So you do the math. There was a lot of pumpkins.

[A]

I actually saw your video. He got one of those ones with the warts on it, which I love. That's my favorite type of pump. I almost think it might be a gourd.

[B]

I think it was a Gordy pump. I think they had like, cross pollination. We're gonna carve the pumpkins next weekend.

[A]

Just the two.

[B]

The warty pumpkin is gonna stay as our Thanksgiving pumpkin.

[A]

Have you ever carved a pumpkin before? No. You have to get whatever the tools are.

[B]

I did buy the tools. Ready to roll.

[A]

Please don't lose a finger.

[B]

Here's the rest of mine.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Carved pumpkins.

[A]

Okay. He's on the list.

[B]

We haven't carved him yet, so I.

[A]

Haven'T checked him off.

[B]

Candy corn cake class at Angels.

[A]

I already signed up. Have you taken anybody with you? Cause you did that last year.

[B]

You know, I Was building last ticket, and when I was gonna send it.

[A]

To someone else, it was like, oh.

[B]

Maybe Jen would want to go. It was like, classes sold out. So just be Corey and the candy corn cake class watch. Ichabod Crane.

[A]

Bought it yesterday. I already had it on my list.

[B]

Bought it on YouTube. You can only stream it on Disney plus, which we don't have, or you have to buy it for 3.99 on YouTube.

[A]

I will be buying it. Ichabod Crane is an original Disney movie. It's a 1940s. Oh, 49 away. Yeah, that's what I googled yesterday. Google it just to make sure.

[B]

Bake pumpkin spice everything.

[A]

Can you bring that? How do you say my pumpkin spice.

[B]

Everything's. I've already done a cinnamon cookie that I found on Tik Tok.

[A]

Delectable. Delectable.

[B]

It's A story of Mr. Toad. The Adventures of Mr. Toad and Nikabod Crane is what it was called.

[A]

Wow. You're right. It came out on October 5, 1940. 39. It had. It had us in a chokehold. We watched it every Halloween. Yeah, I did.

[B]

I did add that to my list.

[A]

Yeah, it's a good one. That's a good one.

[B]

Me and Arch are gonna go see a horror movie at theaters.

[A]

You guys have fun on your own. I'm not a big horror girly myself. I live too much in the moment.

[B]

Arch said he was prepared. And I asked Nate, do you think he's too young for it? And he said, no. The nights of being scared, whatever's in the theater, I don't even know what's in there now.

[A]

Sometimes the Alamo Drafthouse will play older movies.

[B]

Someone said that AMC and annandale was doing 31 days of Halloween, and they were showing things like Hocus Pocus from back in the day. That would be ideal for me.

[A]

That would be better because some of the movies today are a little.

[B]

Are a little crazy.

[A]

Yeah, a crazy. Oh, it's called Halfway Annandale or Arlington.

[B]

One of those A's.

[A]

Okay, but they just said it was an AMC theater over there.

[B]

And if they did the Hocus Pocus Focus one, that would be fantastic because that would really put me in the mood.

[A]

That'd be so. What a great idea. 30 days. I think you might have to search it. Thrills and chills. AMC brings you the very best in horror. If you're looking for a terrifying trip to the theater, you've come to the right place. Oh, yeah, they're called. It's called the 2025 Halloween bring backs. Oh, that's killer. Lineup. Friday the 13th, Candyman scream the Terrifier. Some of these are really old. And then you got to find your participating theater, which there's so many across the country. That's very fun.

[B]

So I thought we could do that one. We have pumpkin spice latte on there.

[A]

I usually get one a year. Remember, if you don't want it to say coffee. If you don't want to taste coffee, you ask them to take the coffee on. It kind of creates a pumpkin cream. Milk. Yeah, something like that.

[B]

I have pumpkin donuts, which I got today from Yodis. That's delights.

[A]

Are they good? I haven't eaten them.

[B]

I was letting them pick them from. But I'm going to do one on my way out. And then a fall scenic drive.

[A]

Oh, I've got that one. A scenic fall drive where you'll be driving to the Skyline Drive Scenery.

[B]

Scenery That's Polish.

[A]

Or do you want to go to the natural Branch?

[B]

Well, we think. What if it was Luray Cavern?

[A]

It's not so fast sign in. But that's. That's Skyline Drive. And, and that's a little bit closer.

[B]

Not three hours. It's like one hour and 29 minutes.

[A]

To the Cavs Arch.

[B]

Did want to go revisit the Cavs.

[A]

He wanted to go revisit the Cavs Caverns. For those uninitiated about Laray, Laray is when you go. When you live in Northern Virginia and you've gone to every museum in D.C. suddenly they're like, why not an underground cavern? So that was a field trip for many, many years. We did.

[B]

We loved it. And. And my list is just going swell. It is going swell.

[A]

All right, well, I gotta go. I dropped my phone on its screen and it shattered and I have an appointment. I wanted to get it replaced.

[B]

All right, well, best of luck to you in your phone.

[A]

I'm not a phone dropping girly. It was so sad. Now you are girl now for not in an hour I won't be. Okay, I'll see you guys. And if you guys want to watch this, this will be on YouTube.