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- [00:00]
Kriti Gupta
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Joe Matthew
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Kriti Gupta
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- [00:33]
Bloomberg Announcer
Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts Radio news. You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at noon and 5pm Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts or watch us live on YouTube.
- [00:55]
Joe Matthew
Turn our attention to Capitol Hill now at an development here. As we've been discussing the countdown to a potential shutdown for days and even weeks, I can now tell you that the cr, the continuing resolution to keep the government running into November, has passed the House of Representatives. That happened just a short time ago to 17 to 12 the vote. Now it heads to the Senate where things could get a little more complicated. And I'm glad to say we're joined by Congressman Tom Emmer, the Majority whip of the U.S. house of Representatives. Congressman, welcome back to Bloomberg TV and Radio. It's great to see you. Are you in victory lap mode right now? Are you worried that this bill is going to crash into a wall in the Senate now?
- [01:34]
Congressman Tom Emmer
It's like coaches used to tell me as a kid, when you score, you're supposed to look like you've been there before and you're going to be there a whole lot more. Now we're, we're moving on to the next thing, which is moving the appropriations process forward. That's what this was all about today. I and look, I it was a good day for the country because we passed the, the government funding bill and I believe that it's going to pass the Senate.
- [02:03]
Interviewer
Well, Congressman, in the scenario that it doesn't pass the Senate, are you planning to come back to town?
- [02:08]
Congressman Tom Emmer
I look, it should pass the Senate. If Chuck Schumer is serious about these foolish threats, he's felony dumb to let the let the government shut down because he's going to own it. The continuing resolution that was sent over by the House guys is clean. I mean, completely clean. It's nothing new. There's nothing partisan about it. It's just continuing the status quo. There's no reason to vote against that unless you want to play political games. And I'll tell you, not only will this hurt his entire Senate conference, it will hurt the Democrat Party. And I'll tell you what, it probably will guarantee that Virginia will have a Republican governor again.
- [02:53]
Laura Cooper
Wow.
- [02:54]
Joe Matthew
Wow. You connected the dots on a couple of things there, Congressman. Democrats obviously want to have a debate about extending Obamacare subsidies. We should remind our viewers and listeners that the plan that you just passed, to your point it continues. What's already in place was basically Joe Biden's budget, right?
- [03:13]
Congressman Tom Emmer
Yeah. I mean, it's the same one that's been continuing since Trump was inaugurated. We did the same thing last March. The difference between last March and now, though, is that the House Appropriation Committee, which you all know is made up of both Republicans and Democrats, passed all 12 appropriations bills, passed several of them off the House floor right now. We had a formal motion to go to conference a couple weeks back. I think that's the first time that there's been a formal conference procedure done since maybe 2014. And Republicans and Democrats in the House have been in conference with Republicans and Democrats in the Senate. They're very close on three bills right now. And their belief is if given more time, they're going to be able to get the entire 26 appropriations package done at some point. So this was a step forward to getting that done and having the next budget.
- [04:08]
Joe Matthew
Don't dare us to say regular order today. Congressman Emmer, I will say that I'm hearing a lot of folks.
- [04:17]
Congressman Tom Emmer
A lot of folks.
- [04:18]
Joe Matthew
No, I know that I'm being sarcastic. It's just not something that we're terribly used to, at least getting across the finish line. And I know that's the goal of yourself and the speaker as outlined at the beginning of this Congress, but you're actually getting a lot of credit for this tactical move here. I don't know how much it was in the design to essentially jam the Senate. Here's the bill, we're taking off, and by the time we come back, there really won't be enough time to re litigate anything. So it's kind of a take it or leave it. Was that the purpose or are you concerned about being accused of jamming the Senate?
- [04:51]
Congressman Tom Emmer
Yeah, look, if you want to jam the Senate, then we would have put a bunch of our priorities in it and we would have sent those over and gone home. We didn't do that. We effectively are leaving things the way they are. It is a nonpartisan continuing resolution. In fact, the only thing that was added to it is something that I think everyone here agrees on, Republican and Democrat and everyone across the country should agree on that is plussing up dollars for the executive branch, for the Supreme Court justice's security and for members of Congress, senators and representatives for, for our security. So this is a nonpartisan effort. The, the person that's going to get blamed primarily will be Chuck Schumer. And if he's making a decision to shut the government down to, you know, like some speculate, to save his own political hide, well, he'll be destroying any chance of his party making a comeback and he's going to cost him a governor's seat again.
- [05:54]
Interviewer
Well, Congressman, just walk us through what the next three months of the year look like here. Are we back in negotiation mood mode right before Thanksgiving on November? If this does go through November 21st, what happens on November 22nd?
- [06:07]
Congressman Tom Emmer
Well, you can't. There are human beings involved. But I think the, so you can't. It's kind of like the weather. I can make some forecasts for you, but they never have to be right. I do have to be right. So I'm not going to forecast something that I can't accurately predict. I can tell you what's going to happen.
- [06:25]
Joe Matthew
Now.
- [06:26]
Congressman Tom Emmer
The House appropriators, even though we're not going to be in session until after the, the government funding deadline, the House will not, will be adjourned. They, they will continue their negotiations on the three bills and other bills that the House and the Senate are going to try to, to try to tie up. And the goal would be to have as many of those done by November 21, because as the whip, that will allow me to go to our members when I'm asking them for their support, to say we're making progress, this all done, or it's, it's close to being done, it's moving in the direction that you want it to. If it doesn't, for some reason, if Democrats walk away from this process, which I haven't seen the rank and file necessary walk, necessarily walk away. I've just seen Hakeem and Schumer posturing as if they're walking away. But if that were to happen again, then, then we'd have to sit down with the speaker and figure out what the next step is. And there are some ideas, but we're not there.
- [07:28]
Joe Matthew
Really Interesting. Lastly, Congressman, appreciate your generosity with your time today. I know it's a busy one. Democrats charge to extend the Obamacare subsidies that we were just mentioning, and this has been a kind of a long running conversation now is something that has split the parties here. I don't know what term you want to use, but I'm just wondering where you are personally on this. Not part of this crisis. But when you get back to work and you're negotiating the next budget for the new year, is that something that you support? We saw polling from Tony Fabrizio shop that showed the expiration of these subsidies could do a lot of damage to Republicans chances in the midterms. I'm just wondering where you are in principle on that.
- [08:11]
Congressman Tom Emmer
Yeah, well first off, you got to understand the job I have. You will not get me to take a position because I've got members who are split on this. My job is not to tell them. This is, you got to agree with me. My job is to say, all right, where are you at? What are you able to do? How is this going to work? So what I do know is this. The, the continuing resolution that was just signed, our, our speaker said this is about funding. This is a funding bill. We will be talking about that policy question before the end of the year because of course they expire at the end of the year.
- [08:48]
Joe Matthew
Yes sir. It's good to have you back with us. Congressman Tom Emmer, the Majority Whip, he got the bill passed and it's great to have you back on Bloomberg TV and radio. Stay with with us on Balance of Power. We'll have much more coming up after this.
- [09:03]
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- [09:40]
Bloomberg Announcer
You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at noon and 5pm Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. Just say Alexa play Bloomberg 11:30.
- [09:59]
Joe Matthew
There is more breaking news. Our conversation with the Republican Whip at the top of the hour just 26 minutes ago. Tom Emmer has not aged very well. The Republican stopgap funding bill that did pass the House earlier, it's what we were talking to the whip about has failed in the Senate already. A live view of the Senate floor. Now knowing that there will be another vote on a separate stopgap bill crafted by Democrats, which too is expected to fail. Lawmakers are set to go home after this treaty and when they return following next week, it's a holiday week with the Jewish holidays. They will not be back until two days before a potential shutdown and it's looking more likely that that will happen.
- [10:43]
Interviewer
And it's interesting though, if they change their tune, maybe after this we'll hear more lawmakers say, actually maybe we will stay in town. Maybe we will hash it out.
- [10:51]
Joe Matthew
It's possible. We'll see what the panel thinks. Bloomberg Politics contributors Rick Davis and Jeannie Shann Zaino are with us. Rick is, of course, our Republican strategist and partner at Stone Capitol. Jeannie is our Democratic analyst and democracy visiting fellow at Harvard Kennedy School's Ash Center. We spoke to Tom Emmer, Rick. He said this was going to pass the Senate. We know that the Democratic plan doesn't have the votes either, so we're shutting down.
- [11:20]
Rick Davis
Yeah. It's so welcome to hear Kritty even raise a question as to whether members would have enough. Thank you, Kritty, for not being so stained by our politics. They're going away. They like their holidays. This is one that comes at an important time. There's a lot going on in the country right now and they want to go home and talk to their constituents and they want to avoid the glare of Washington, especially because they haven't passed a budget for the government to run on. And so so I highly doubt they'll take the extraordinary measures to stick around and do their day job. That being said, I don't think there is going to be a deal until their backs are up against the wall and maybe, you know, they get back and Democrats are willing to, you know, take a hamburger today for a dollar tomorrow. I mean, like their deal is going to be, you know, vote for the House passed bill and we'll consider some of your changes to the health care legislation that are needed, you know, as part of the appropriations process. And frankly, Member Emmer kind of indicated that he's got a bunch of Republicans who don't want to get the blame for cutting off that Obama subsidy for ACA health care. And my guess is you're going to have a 72 hour negotiating session. It could wind up stopping the government from, from shutting down.
- [13:01]
Joe Matthew
Well, that's going to be a whirlwind session, Jeannie. Will Democrats play along with that scenario?
- [13:09]
Kriti Gupta
I don't think they have a choice. I think what is problematic here has to do with the fact that you have two sides dug in, and they are dug in because we have gerrymandered districts and we have parties that are increasingly running to their most extreme sides. And so all of the House members facing reelection, which is all of them in the midterm, and the senators who are, they are scared to death of a primary from their left and their right. And so they are doing the bidding of the most extreme elements of their parties and not of the American people. And you know, in what universe when there is a crisis at your work, do you say, oh, goodbye, I'm going to go on vacation. But that's exactly what they're doing. And that's not to say they're not going to be working in their districts, but they're not going to be doing the business of the American people. So this is truly, when it comes to Congress and has been for a long time, a very, very broken system. We don't ask a lot of Congress these days. It's a bare minimum that through regular order you consider and pass a budget to keep the government. And they haven't been able to do that for a very long time. So I think it's pox on both parties and the entire House and Senate for the way this is turning out. But it's just an old, old story in D.C. today.
- [14:36]
Interviewer
Well, Rick, let's bring it right back to those health care subsidies. If they are not extended, do Republicans face the consequences at the midterms?
- [14:44]
Rick Davis
Yeah, it could be a backlash. Right. I think that nothing impacts people like their pocketbook. 75% increase in your health insurance costs are pretty extreme. I mean, there is a debate that should take place as to whether the federal government should be subsidizing some individuals and not others for their health care. I mean, and we went through that debate at the time ACA was passed under Obama and it was a party line vote. Right. And so this has been a polarized issue for a long time. And yes, Republicans could take the heat for that. When people start looking at the costs of health care, they'll be able to point to a Republican bill. That being said, it's not a done deal. I thought that Congressman Emmer's point that we're going to have to come to grips with that before we finalize this budget that goes into effect. You know, once it's passed, those, those subsidies don't run out until June till January. And so they do have time to put a patch in to policy legislation, not a continuing resolution.
- [15:57]
Joe Matthew
We haven't talked about rescissions for a while. Jeannie, do Democrats need a guarantee there will not be another package of rescissions?
- [16:08]
Kriti Gupta
They do. And that's something they should request during the appropriations process. And more than request, they should fight for health care subsidies and to ensure that when they support a bill that it is not going to be clawed back. And it's certainly something they're asking for. The problem is, is that it's very, very difficult to do that in a CR context. You've got to do that in the appropriations context. But this is exactly the playbook that Russ Vote on behalf of Donald Trump has been using. Russ Vote has talked about this very moment going back to at least 2011. He is well prepared for what is coming ahead. And he and the president would like nothing more than to blame the Democrats for shutting down this government and to use that to distract people from the reality that under this Republican controlled Washington, health care is going up, the economy is going down, unemployment is going up. These tariff wars have not turned out the way the president planned. A whole host of Mrs. On the part of the president economically, cost of living and otherwise. They don't want to take responsibility for it. So they will try to point to the Democrats. And Democrats have to be very careful not to fall into that trap. And I fear they're falling into it because again, they're being pushed from a very angry and rightfully so base about everything else the president continues to do in so many other contexts.
- [17:38]
Interviewer
Well, Jeannie, how do Democrats feel about the security budget and the security measures that are likely to get tacked on to any future negotiations? Is this a foregone conclusion that this is going to be a part of the next agreement?
- [17:51]
Kriti Gupta
I do think most Democrats, like most Republicans are supportive. They too are very concerned about the safety of themselves, their colleagues, their families and in this environment, rightly so. So I do think that's something they support. But I think they have got to be very clear on what their demands are. And you know, that clarity should have started several, several months, if not weeks ago to their own constituents and the American public. The concern is without leadership, real leadership at the top of the Democratic Party. A lot of this is very confusing to voters who will probably end up blaming everyone in Washington, D.C. we do.
- [18:32]
Joe Matthew
With the blame game pretty that's one thing we do know how to do in Washington. Jeannie. Thank you, Rick as well. Jeannie. Shan Zaino and Rick Davis will join us on the late edition of Balance of power. Our great panel Bloomberg Politics contributors here in Washington. I'm Joe Matthew alongside Kriti Gupta. We've got breaking news coming out of Estonia. Another article 4 is triggered thanks to Russia. We'll have the story next only on Bloomberg. Stay with us on Balance of Power. We'll have much more coming up after this.
- [19:03]
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Running small and medium sized businesses is hard work. Business owners need to be sure that their ads are working just as hard as they do. Amazon Ads allows businesses to track and optimize campaigns for better ROI from their marketing. With Amazon Ads, you can be more sure that your marketing is reaching relevant audiences during premium content and shows they're actually watching. Trillions of browsing, shopping and streaming insights help you optimize your campaigns in real time, and measurement tools show you what's working the hardest. Gain the edge with Amazon ads.
- [19:41]
Bloomberg Announcer
You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at noon and 5pm Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app Listen on demand Wherever you get your podcast us or watch us live on YouTube.
- [19:57]
Joe Matthew
Live in Washington talking politics and connecting the dots here between Washington and Wall street with an important development. If you're just joining us, the stopgap continuing resolution, the CR as they call it, that Republicans wrote to keep the government from closing at the end of the month passed the House of Representatives. However, it has failed in the Senate and a second version authored by Democrats is also expected to fail. So as we heard from Tom Emmer, the Majority Whip, at the top of this hour, Republicans and Democrats are not agreeing on the extension of Obamacare subsidies. And as our political panel told us, we may well be shutting down on the 1st of October. We'll have more for you on that as we turn now to geopolitics. And a very important development here following the President's discussion with reporters on his trip to the UK about the war in Ukraine, he was asked about his relationship with Vladimir Putin and the prospect of secondary sanctions. Here's what he said. He's let me down. He's really let me down.
- [20:58]
Congressman Tom Emmer
War is a different thing. Things happen that are very opposite of what you thought. You thought you were going to have.
- [21:04]
Joe Matthew
An easy time or a hard time.
- [21:05]
Congressman Tom Emmer
And it turns out to be the reverse.
- [21:09]
Joe Matthew
It seems Vladimir Putin has let President Trump down again with news today that Russian fighter jets MIGs actually entered the airspace of Estonia. And just now on the Prime Minister of Estonia writing this morning, three Russian MiG31 fighter jets entered Estonian airspace. NATO fighters responded and the Russian planes were forced to flee. Such violation is totally unacceptable. The government of Estonia has decided to request NATO Article 4 consultations. And, Creedy, this is the second time this has happened in the space of a week. Poland did the very same thing after Russian drones entered Polish airspace.
- [21:49]
Rick Davis
Absolutely.
- [21:49]
Interviewer
You mentioned this was right on the border of Romania as well, so it would be an additional incursion on that front.
- [21:55]
Laura Cooper
And.
- [21:56]
Interviewer
But the second country to your point that has invoked Article 4 in terms of military consultations, I wonder how close we are to Article 5.
- [22:03]
Joe Matthew
Well, that's the fear right now on exactly what response the US Will have, which is why we're glad to be joined by Laura Cooper, the former US Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Russia, Ukraine, and Eurasia. Laura, it's wonderful to have you with us here on Bloomberg TV and radio. We have two Article 4 incursions being triggered here in countries that are very concerned about Vladimir Putin's next move. What will this lead to?
- [22:28]
Laura Cooper
Well, absolutely, this is a big source of concern for all NATO countries at this point. I think that when you first saw the drones flying into Polish airspace, there were many who initially thought, well, perhaps this was a mistake. Perhaps, you know, these drones went off course. I think at point this. This point, we all have to treat these drone incursions and now these fighter incursions as Putin testing NATO.
- [22:58]
Joe Matthew
Well, there's a difference between drones and fighters, Right. There were. There were pilots in those planes that. That could have turned into a conflict.
- [23:04]
Laura Cooper
Absolutely. And certainly our NATO pilots are trained to operate in a safe and professional way and to intercept incoming fighter jets. And thankfully, that's exactly what they did. But now is the time to shift from this focus on the specific military operation and think about what is the larger political response, because this testing that Putin is doing, he is testing to see if NATO will stand unified. He is testing not just Estonia and Poland, he's testing the United States of America. And he is waiting to hear from U.S. leaders that this is unacceptable and that we will push back. When we saw the drones going into Polish airspace, we did not see even a forceful rhetorical response. Now, certainly, our military, working with allied militaries, have planned and for more robust defenses in Eastern Europe. They are executing that mission as we speak. But what Putin is looking for is a sign of true division politically within NATO, and he is looking to see whether the US Will show support.
- [24:26]
Interviewer
What does that response actually look like? If you were in the White House right now, what would you say the appropriate response is?
- [24:32]
Laura Cooper
Well, again, the first response is to be forceful in your speech. Silence does not signal that we are supporting Europe. So there needs to be an actual, you know, verbal response and, you know, ideally something beyond a quick tweet, actually a statement of concern and support. Then you shift into the more tangible responses. And I already talked about how in NATO military channels, our militaries are doing exactly what they need to do. They are working together to shore up defenses in the east, and that's what needs to happen. But in Ukraine, what you see is a structure right now of European support for the Ukrainians that appears to not include the United States of America. And that is what Putin is seeing.
- [25:26]
Joe Matthew
Should those Russian MIGs have been shot down?
- [25:29]
Laura Cooper
Well, I certainly wouldn't. Wouldn't make a military recommendation. I have great confidence in how.
- [25:35]
Joe Matthew
It's not an article 5. Would it. Would the nation need to be attacked by those jets to bring us to the next level?
- [25:40]
Laura Cooper
Article 5 specifically refers to an attack, whereas this Article 4, they're assessing the situation and they're needing to consult on further measures.
- [25:48]
Joe Matthew
And four lead to five. Can that review lead to something greater?
- [25:51]
Laura Cooper
Four could lead to five. The idea is that, you know, NATO, a NATO nation, would invoke Article 5 if they actually felt they were under attack. And that is not the assessment at this time. Again, I would characterize this as testing NATO countries. And again, the United States is being tested.
- [26:12]
Interviewer
Let's talk a little bit about the thought that's been put out there, that the potential way to getting to a ceasefire end of a conflict rests in territory swaps, whether it's ceding some of the land that Russia is already taken over or Ukraine potentially getting Russian land and holding onto it. Is that a realistic prospect? Either one.
- [26:35]
Laura Cooper
So I think it's important to reject that proposal, which is wholly a proposal that Vladimir Putin agrees with. The Russians are looking to achieve through some kind of magical silver platter offer of territory what it could not achieve through military operations on the battlefield. We have to remember that even though the Ukrainians have suffered tremendously, what we are seeing is an incredibly slow Russian advance. I mean, if Russia kept advancing at the same rate that they are doing now, it would take years for them to conquer all of Donbas. Donbass. Donbass is precisely the area that Russia wants Ukraine to give up. And the word swap is a complete misnomer because this isn't an exchange. This is Ukraine being forced to give up sovereign territory.
- [27:28]
Joe Matthew
Another annexation.
- [27:30]
Laura Cooper
Exactly.
- [27:31]
Joe Matthew
Give us a status update on what's happening right now with weapons being provided to Ukraine, because the President has a different approach than Joe Biden. He's allowing NATO members to essentially buy American equipment and provide it to Ukraine. So we're not incurring the cost. We know there was an initial purchase by the Netherlands and we've seen some other action, but is this working as planned? Is Ukraine getting what it needs?
- [27:54]
Laura Cooper
So, first of all, I think it's important to not use the term allowing Europe to purchase US Weapons because for decades now, Europeans have been purchasing US Equipment, US Weapons. And it's not, you know, a grand gesture on the part of the United States.
- [28:08]
Joe Matthew
And I'm not trying to make a statement by using that term, but of course we were providing that weaponry until Donald Trump.
- [28:13]
Laura Cooper
Absolutely. So what you see right now is Europe has actually stepped up and they are basically shouldering not just the US Share, the previous US Share of weapons. They're also continuing to shoulder a burden on their own. And so if you look at their new process, it's this prioritized Ukraine requirements list process. It's kind of a cumbersome name that is managed out of NATO headquarters. This is a process where the Europeans and other countries around the world for that matter, can purchase what the NATO staff and what the Ukrainians deem are their most important requirements. But this is all the stuff that the US Used to provide. It's the munitions for himars, these longer range launch systems, it's interceptors for Patriot systems for air defense. So these items, these munitions in particular, are now being funded by the Europeans. They're helping US Defense industry maintain open production lines, which is extremely helpful for not just US Industry, but also for US Readiness, so that if we need to purchase the same things, the factories are up and running and we can just go right in and be able to purchase. So this is a huge boon to the US and it's certainly helpful for the Ukrainians. But you have to wonder, how long can Europe do both, do both its share and the US share before 2025? At the point of January 2025, the Europeans and the US had provided about the same amount, over $60 billion in security assistance. So it was equivalent. If you want the equivalent volumes in order to pressure the Russians to go to the negotiating table to agree to a cease fire, that means that the Europeans may be actually spending double what they were. This could be very challenging for their budgets. And you also have to look at the fact that they're paying for their own defense. They've all agreed to increase their defense spending for their own defense as well. NATO now has a 5% of GDP target of spending. And so, you know, these defense expenditures are going to be really considerable for these NATO countries and they'll have longer term implications for European defense industry and for US Defense industry.
- [30:50]
Interviewer
Well, Laura, it's famously known that Europe has been underfunded in its military for a very long time, which is why you're seeing the squeeze here. But they've also the NATO contributions, even under the previous target, they've missed them significantly, I think the exception being Poland at the end of the day. So in terms of actual NATO security guarantees that can be offered to Ukraine, can Europe even do that? And how far away are we to a viable security guarantee that comes from the European continent?
- [31:19]
Laura Cooper
So I think first of all, it's important to not, to not rule out that the US should be a part of whatever the security and I would say security assurances for Ukraine as opposed to security guarantee because I think that right now Putin is only looking at one country as the signal of whether he's going to get away with taking over Ukraine and maybe moving beyond, and that's the United States. So I wouldn't say just European. That said, what the Europeans are doing right now is really impressive in trying to stand up a mechanism that would offer support to Ukraine. It is not an Article 5 guarantee. I don't think that there are many countries in, in Europe or around the world that actually would consider, you know, fighting directly with Russia in response to future Russian aggression. But what the Europeans are trying to do is have an architecture that bolsters Ukraine in its ability to withstand aggression. It's really important to recognize that what they're talking about is for after a ceasefire. So we can't ignore the fact that business right now should focus on the ceasefire. You can't ever get to security assurances if you don't actually stop the fighting in the first place. And of course, this is what President Trump was focused on in the past. So the European will look to a potential multinational force again to help bolster Ukraine in the wake of a ceasefire. And that force would be multidimensional and has a lot of aspects that still need to be worked out.
- [33:00]
Joe Matthew
Wow. Come see us again. It's a fascinating conversation and we'd love to tap your experience more as we learn whatever the next steps are going to be in this long running story. Laura Cooper's former US Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense Events for Russia, Ukraine and Eurasia with us in studio here in Washington. Stay with us on balance of power. We'll have much more coming up after this.
- [33:23]
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Running small and medium sized businesses is hard work. Business owners need to be sure that their ads are working just as hard as they do. Amazon Ads allows businesses to track and optimize campaigns for better ROI from their marketing. With Amazon Ads, you can be more sure that your marketing is reaching relevant audiences during premium content and shows they're actually watching. Trillions of browsing, shopping and streaming insights help you optimize your campaigns in real time, and measurement tools show you what's working the hardest. Gain the edge with Amazon Ads.
- [33:59]
Bloomberg Announcer
You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at noon and 5pm Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. Just say Alexa play Bloomberg 11:30 we.
- [34:19]
Joe Matthew
Track the Friday trade. Yeah, I said it. It is at last Friday and I did have to check twice today. It's been a long week after another long week with the re emergence of political violence in this country. The killing of Charlie Kirk that has spawned the political blame game here in Washington and around the nation forced a major television personality off the air and has left a country asking some big questions, some hard questions about free speech, about the Constitution and the role of government in our lives. With the White House now testing the limits of its authority in trying to shape government into President Trump's own image, it's a time that calls for some context. And I have an important voice to introduce you to. It's a conversation that we've been looking forward to and that you will only hear on Balance of Power here on Bloomberg. Hassan Kwame Jeffries, College of Arts and Sciences Alumni, Associate professor of History at Ohio State University, is with us right now. And Professor, I want to welcome you to Bloomberg. It's great to have you with us here. I don't know how you would describe this period of time that we are in, but I'm sure it's something that is spawning a lot of conversation on your campus. And I wonder how your students are feeling about this. What kind of questions you're hearing?
- [35:39]
Hassan Kwame Jeffries
Well, first, it's great to be with you and on this important topic and during this, during this tumultuous time, and that's how I would in fact describe it as being a tumultuous time. And the students at Ohio State, brilliant students, very thoughtful students, there's a degree of fear, there's a degree of concern, there's a degree of confusion because they're being hit with a lot of mixed signals. Do you want us to have to sort of speak our mind and Learn and be curious, or do you want us to sit down and be quiet? And in the absence of, like, really hard conversations about America's difficult parts of its history, then the things that we see today just seem out of context, seem to be coming out of nowhere. I'll just say quickly, you know, America has a long history of political violence. And so what we see today is less an aberration than a historical continuation, despite how we may want to interpret it.
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Joe Matthew
Well, you've been studying and writing about civil rights for many years, and there have been some remarkable developments over the past couple of months. We saw one emerge this week in a story in the Washington Post about the Trump administration ordering national parks to remove certain slavery references. And we should note here that the national parks are home, in fact, to many former slave plantations, not to mention Civil War battlefields. In one case, a depiction of a slave. The Washington Post reports the administration wanted the scars removed from his back. Can you speak to why these depictions exist to begin with and what it would mean to remove them?
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Hassan Kwame Jeffries
The depictions exist because they accurately reflect America's history. The depictions exist because they are snapshots of history that actually happened. And it is important that we focus and study and share with the public and don't bury and try to hide the scars that aren't just on the backs of individuals who were held in bondage, but the scars that we all bear as Americans, because this is our history, too. Nobody today is responsible for slavery in America. So this isn't about, you know, shame or blame, but this is about understanding, because what drove that institution so that it could exist for 250 years just wasn't a handful of unfortunate or bad individuals or misguided individuals. It was the nation as a whole said, this is going to be the basis of our economy. And so we. We have to understand that and understand the implications and legacy of that. And when you erase that history, try to remove those pictures and sanitize that aspect of America's past, you not only fail to understand the past, but you also fail to understand the present.
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Joe Matthew
So rationalize this now with me, Professor. The attempt to change the names of some military bases back to their original Confederate names. In some cases, you'd find a name that this administration has found a name that matches, but it's an actual different person. In the case of Fort Bragg or some of these others, Pete Hegseth, the Secretary of War, as the president calls him, and President Trump both want the old Confederate names to be restored. How does that coincide with the removal of the images that we're describing.
- [39:22]
Hassan Kwame Jeffries
Well, I'm glad you see the connection, because there is a connection. And first, I would point out that a lot of the names that were removed, the former Confederate generals were. Didn't exist in perpetuity. I mean, they were. These were bases and forts and the like that were renamed in advance of World War I, during the height of Jim Crow and the resurgence of white supremacy in America, to get Southern Democrats at the time to get on board with America going into World War I. And so, you know. You know, when we say, you know, the time had passed, the time has passed to have names that reflect the beautiful mosaic that we are in America and to remove the names of those who were traitors to the nation. It isn't. You aren't erasing history. You are, in fact, you know, making history more reflective or the present more reflective of America's values in the present, which is critically important. And just to link the two more clearly, you know, one of the things that we do, we have done in America, rather than confront the most difficult aspects of our past, is to create false narratives about the past. And the biggest false narrative that we have created is that of the Lost Cause and celebrating Lionizing the Confederacy, to downplay the horror of slavery and to shine a light on those who engaged in rebellion against the nation is the Lost Cause narrative. And we're revisiting that by trying to rename these forts and bases and return.
- [40:57]
Joe Matthew
The controversial reconciliation monument sculpture to Arlington National Cemetery. The plan by Pete Hegseth, in this case, honoring the Confederacy here in the nation's capital. They unveiled plans to rebuild statue commemorating Albert Pike, a Confederate brigadier general, just a few blocks away from the US Capitol as well. What we heard when we asked about this from the Pentagon was the United States and the Department of Defense is not interested in erasing our history, acknowledging it and honoring it, which also would run counter to the removal of certain pieces of history. Wouldn't.
- [41:40]
Hassan Kwame Jeffries
You know, removing statues, updating names so that they reflect the values of the society in which we live, the principles, the goals, the objectives, you know, is not erasing history. You know, you can remove Confederate monuments. The Confederacy still lost. Robert E. Lee was still a traitor. And so that's a talking point. What you are doing, in fact, is. And I think every community over time, every nation over time, should pause and reflect and think about what occupies our public space and does and do these monuments and memorials reflect who we ought to be and who we aspire to be? And I would humbly submit that uplifting the Confederacy and Confederate generals, those who took up arms against the United States, do not reflect the best aspects of America's past or America's present.
- [42:33]
Joe Matthew
You may have seen the White House peace vigil which was standing there kind of a tent with some signs around it and a 24 hour stand by some anti nuclear peace activists. Essentially. He's been there for 44 years. Professor, widely considered the longest continuous act of political protest in American history, has been dismantled. They park police went outside, tore the whole thing down. Last night after a reporter mentioned this to the president in the Oval Office, another symbol that has left us here in the nation's capital. And I know you're no stranger to Washington, Professor, Our viewers and listeners should know that you are the brother of House Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries. We've seen quite a, quite an interesting couple of weeks go by here with the federalization of our local police, National Guard troops here on the streets. Can I ask you, with the course of study that you follow and the conversation that we're having right now, are you concerned that your university will run into political trouble as you teach the history of civil rights?
- [43:47]
Hassan Kwame Jeffries
I'm more concerned that my university, Ohio State University, home of the defending national football champions, I should say will not necessarily run into political trouble because what they've done is they've actually already bent the knee. They've shuttered diversity, equity inclusion programs. They right now just announced the ACLU of Ohio has filed a lawsuit on behalf of a student who was expelled for nonviolent non threatening posts about the war in Gaza. And so I'm less worried. I mean, Ohio State has demonstrated that they are aligning with the Trump administration on many of these issues. So I'm less worried about them, you know, succumbing to political backlash and more worried about them clamping down on not just free speech. And you mentioned the memorial of the protest, the peace protest there, but clamping down on the right to dissent on campus, particularly among students. And it's not and it's pressure that they're feeling and they're going along with it, not only from the Trump administration, but also from the Ohio state legislature. And so many of these now, as we would call them red states, are facing this sort of dual threat when it comes to free speech and the right to dissent, not only from the federal government, but also from state government. So I'm deeply concerned and worried that we're continuing to make it more difficult and not create space for that kind for students to raise their voice and dissent not only about what's going on campus, but also what's going on in their nation and in their world.
- [45:28]
Joe Matthew
Well, I appreciate the conversation, professor, and I hope you come back and see us sometime on Bloomberg, because I this is something that's going to take time and probably more than one talk. Hassan Kwame Jeffries College of Arts and Sciences Alumni Associate professor of History at Ohio State University it's great to meet you, sir. Come back and talk to us again. Thanks for listening to the Balance of Power podcast. Make sure to subscribe if you haven't already at Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And you can find us live every weekday from Washington, D.C. at noontime Eastern at Bloomberg.
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