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Bloomberg Balance of Power Podcast Host
Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts Radio news. You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at noon and 5pm Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts or watch us live on YouTube.
- [00:55]
Joe Matthew
We plunge further into a government shutdown with huge questions about how we get out of one. I'll let you know. There were already no votes, as expected, on the Democratic version of the continuing resolution. The House has already done that now for, I believe, the sixth time today. And we're watching voting now, I should say the Senate watching voting now on the Senate floor on the Republican cr. This is the one that did pass the House and is expected to fail again here. Thanks for being with us on the Wednesday edition of Balance of Power on Bloomberg TV and radio. Of course, it's a different mathematical equation in the Senate where you need 60 votes, something that I discussed with Republican Senator James Lankford of Oklahoma. Let's listen.
- [01:34]
Senator James Lankford
The challenge that we have is we don't have 60 votes. We're not even close to that. So the alternative then is to just keep the government closed down forever. That doesn't help us either. We've got to actually have conversations with Republicans, Democrats who disagree on a lot of things, figure out how we can get 60 votes in the Senate to agree to something and then to be.
- [01:53]
Joe Matthew
Able to move conversations with Republicans and Democrats, cats and dogs living together that will actually occur this hour on this program. We'll be joined in a moment by Republican Congressman Jason Smith, a key figure in this debate as he chairs the important House Ways and Means Committee. As I mentioned as well. Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury of New Mexico will join us with the Democratic view. But we want to start at the White House here because, of course, President Trump is so important when it comes to messaging and direction for the leadership on Capitol Hill. And Bloomberg's Washington correspondent Tyler Kendall's on the North Lawn right now on a rainy day here in the Capitol. Tyler, what's going on?
- [02:30]
Tyler Kendall
Yeah, hey, Joe. Well, it's so far a relatively quiet day here at the White House. We haven't really heard much from officials in the way when it comes to any sort of progress on reopening the government. But we have heard from House Speaker Mike Johnson, asked directly after President Trump yesterday commented on the potential that federal workers might not get their back pay. House Speaker Mike Johnson saying that his interpretation of the law is that they are entitled to that that pay, saying that they shouldn't face financial consequences just because there is a shutdown. Of course, this comes after reports, including our own here at Bloomberg News, that the OMB has drafted a memo that says that federal workers are not guaranteed to compensation once the federal government reopens. President Trump was asked directly about this yesterday and it's interesting to see here because it does appear that the OMB might be taking aim at this 2019 law that was actually signed by President Trump, essentially guaranteeing that there would be this back pay. The OMB now saying, saying that it needs to be explicitly appropriated by Congress. Joe, we're already starting to see potential solutions here. We heard from Republican Senator Susan Collins yesterday who was floating a potential backup option where maybe there could be a measure tied to the shutdown bill that would eventually reopen the government. The thing is, that measure isn't currently in this clean CR that we're seeing them currently vote on as we speak. And at this point it would have to be added. But we know that at the moment we are just going through the same process over and over again voting Joe, on this same clean stopgap measure that would fund the government until November 21st.
- [04:03]
Joe Matthew
Starting to feel like Groundhog Day. Tyler I'm looking at the president's schedule, by the way. Nothing public until a couple of hours from now. He's participating in an event not geared toward the shutdown or trade, as we frequently see, but at a roundtable in the State Dining Room on an tfa. Do we know anything about what's going to happen and how this will work?
- [04:25]
Tyler Kendall
Well, we are expecting them to welcome US reporters in the White House poll today in to that room. There are reports that independent journalists will also be there to discuss Antifa. We know that President Trump had moved to formally designate antifa, which is a loose collective of far left militant groups, as an official terrorist organization. But there have been questions since that executive order on exactly how this would work. Federal law allows for international groups to be labeled as foreign terrorist organizations, but we haven't seen how this would be enacted for this domestic group and how broad ranging it would be so potentially there could be some sort of details there. But it does come as President Trump, of course, widens escalates his rhetoric against mayors in Democratic cities, Democratic governors around the country, as we've seen National Guard troops invoked. And I would expect some common themes surrounding the president's moves there to emerge today when we enter that room.
- [05:21]
Joe Matthew
All right, Tyler. It's always a good day in Washington when Tyler Kendall's in the pool. She's live at the White House. We'll have more a little bit later on as we approach that event at 3pm Tyler mentioned back pay. This has been a big question in Washington, or maybe it's not so much a question any longer. Speaker Mike Johnson, who's going to join us on the late edition of BALANCE OF POWER today, seemed to put this to bed a bit earlier. Let's listen to what he said.
- [05:42]
Rick Davis
That's my position.
- [05:42]
Joe Matthew
I think they should be they should not be subjected to harm and financial.
- [05:48]
Senator James Lankford
Dire straits because Chuck Schumer wants to play political games with regard to paying the troops.
- [05:53]
Rick Davis
I want everybody to listen to me very carefully. Hakeem Jeffries and the House Democrats, as.
- [05:57]
Joe Matthew
Leader Scalise said so well, are clamoring.
- [06:00]
Senator James Lankford
To get back here and have another.
- [06:01]
Rick Davis
Vote because some of them want to.
- [06:03]
Joe Matthew
Get on record and say they're for paying the troops.
- [06:04]
Rick Davis
We already had that vote. It's called the cr.
- [06:08]
Joe Matthew
It's called the CR he said. And that CR is getting a vote as we speak in the Senate. It is likely to fail. But these are really important matters. And of course, we know the 10th is the next pay cycle for federal workers, including the staffers of members of Congress. And then the 15th is the paycheck date for the military. We're joined now by Congressman Jason Smith, Republican, of course, chair of the House Ways and Means Committee, who's watching all of this from the other side in his chamber. And Mr. Chairman, I want to welcome you back to Bloomberg TV and Radio. Before we get into all the politics around this, are you with the speaker on back pay for federal workers?
- [06:47]
Jason Smith
So, without a doubt, back pay for federal workers who have not been furloughed, who have been working, should absolutely be paid. There's no question about that. Where the discussion is is for individuals who have been furloughed, who are not working during the shutdown. That is where the big debate is.
- [07:07]
Joe Matthew
Isn't that covered by law? Mr. Chairman, are you referring to those workers who were furloughed before things shut down? Because that's 750,000 dol. Thousand people right now. Correct.
- [07:20]
Jason Smith
So I don't know the exact number. But what. What has been considered an essential employee and what has been considered.
- [07:35]
Joe Matthew
Looks like we may be having trouble with the connection. Mr. Chairman, if you can hear me, we might need to reconnect with Jason Smith because the technology gods may not be playing. This is something that we've talked about, of course, since this came up yesterday at the White House and the law that's on the books going back some years, we've talked about this a couple of times now. The Government Employee Fair Treatment act of 2019, which the President did sign during the record long shutdown, 35 days Gefta, they call it, widely interpreted as ensuring that furloughed workers automatically are compensated when shutdowns end and they are in fact reinstated in their jobs. There's a question about whether that law will be interpreted the same way by this administration. The Office of Management and Budget says Gefta has been deficient, having been amended after its passage nine days later on 25 January in 2019. And I think that we've reconnected with Congressman Jason Smith. I'm sorry for the interruption, Mr. Chairman. I was just talking about the Government Employee Fair Treatment Act 2019, which is the law that, that is of course at hand here, which the President signed in his first term. It does ensure that furloughed workers are made whole following the end of a shutdown. Should we be looking at this law differently?
- [08:59]
Jason Smith
I think what we need to be looking at. We shouldn't even have to discuss this law at hand. The Democrats need to open up government. They're on the sixth vote right now in the United States Senate blocking just a continuation of funding. We're just trying to fund government as it was on September 30th. Today, if they just open it up, there would be no question about who's getting paid. All federal employees would get paid. Do your job, do something that you did six months ago. This bill is exactly the same to what they passed in March of this year. But they're only holding it hostage right now because of the unrelated, unrelated policy objectives. They don't oppose anything within this 24 page continuing resolution of funding. They want things outside side of the bill. That is why they're voting no. They're not voting against what's in it. And, and who's affected. The 1.3 million military personnel a week from today that will not have a paycheck. These. This is absolutely inappropriate.
- [10:04]
Joe Matthew
Do you have the same approach then to military paychecks. There's been a question, I'm sure you've discussed it with your colleagues, about whether there should be a separate piece of legislation to make sure that the military is paid, maybe using that $150 billion in the big beautiful bill. The speaker clearly doesn't idea. How about you?
- [10:22]
Jason Smith
The speaker is exactly right. We've already done our job. We funded government more than three weeks ago, paying all military personnel. The Democrats have always supported this in the past, but once again they're playing political games with people's future and people's livelihoods. They need to stop obstructing the 60 vote filibuster over the United States Senate. They need to break that right now. If it means delivering paychecks for military and for, and to open up government. It is unacceptable that Chuck Schumer and Democrats can, can hold hostage the economy. They can hold hostage the government.
- [11:00]
Joe Matthew
You hear all the same arguments that I do, Mr. Chairman. Specifically when it comes to not necessarily impoundment, but the extension of Obamacare subsidies. And I realize that you're framing that as an unrelated issue. Democrats say, hey, we've had two resistance packages so far and letters are going out with rising premiums. If we don't deal with this now, now we're going to miss the deadline at the end of the year. What's your response?
- [11:26]
Jason Smith
Premiums have gone up 80% in the last 10 years in Obamacare exchanges. Premiums have continued to go up because it's been a complete failure. What they've done with these subsidies only increases the incentive for insurance companies to raise premiums, which is the wrong thing. Can we get together and have a good discussion about access to health care? We absolutely should. I represent an area area that rural health care is, is in dire need. But guess what? One of the demands that the Democrats have within let's reopen government for 28 days is by cutting $50 billion for rural health care. That is unacceptable. So let's have a real discussion. But those premium tax credits, they don't expire till December 31st. And, and the only reason why they expire is because the Democrats made them temporary and not permanent in the inflation red.
- [12:25]
Joe Matthew
Well, should they expire, I know that you have members of your conference who say these were Covid era subsidies and they have no purpose now.
- [12:33]
Jason Smith
They should not be extended as they are because a married couple making more than $600,000 a year are being subsidized for this. That's completely unacceptable. We have to look at what will bring down the cost of premiums. What will provide more access to health care? This is what needs to be in the discussion. And let's try to do some transformational health care policy that delivers for all Americans, not just 24 million Americans, because that's what's on the exchanges. There's 347 million Americans, 174 million are employee health care insurance. And we're not even discussing that with all of these premium tax credits. 78 million people are on Medicare, 82 million are Medicaid. That's not even being discussed by those, those folks on premium tax credits. So we're only talking 24 million people when they talk about those premium tax credits.
- [13:28]
Joe Matthew
Well, you've got a pretty unique view as chair of the House Ways and Means Committee and outside of the blame game, and I know there's a lot of noise in politics here and you're effective at making your case. Mr. Chairman, outside of who's at fault, how much longer do you think this goes? Do we. The president said four or five days. We might start to talk about real mass layoffs. Is that when the government reopens?
- [13:51]
Jason Smith
You know, it's disturbing.
- [13:52]
Joe Matthew
The.
- [13:53]
Jason Smith
There's no winners here. The people that's losing is the American, the American public. I said, I said at the very beginning, if the Democrats force the shutdown, it will probably be longer than the prior shutdown, which was 35 days, because the Democrats will have to vote for the bill that they have continued to vote against now six times over in the United States Senate and the same bill that Chuck Schumer and the Democrats voted for in March. Nancy Pelosi has been on record numerous times saying you should never shut down government for policy issues. You should fund government. Let's follow through with those actions.
- [14:35]
Joe Matthew
It's looking, by the way, like the House passed continuing resolution that we're discussing here. The Republican version that we're discussing with the chairman is on the precipice of failure in the Senate. And with that said, Mr. Chairman, we could go through this 10, 20, 30 more times. To your point, who knows how long we're going to be closed? We've got November 21st as an end date on this. CR is that going to need to be extended? Because, my goodness, this goes another couple of weeks. It's going to be a pretty short continuing resolution.
- [15:03]
Jason Smith
Well, the Democrats CR that they wanted was only 28 days with an additional $1.4 trillion worth of spending, including providing health insurance for illegals and taking away $50 billion of rural health care that was their alternative. We have to just open up government. Now there's a CR that has passed the House. It's over. In the Senate. It they're on the sixth vote. The only reason why it's not passed in the Senate is because of a procedure vote where the Democrats are filibustering. Let them vote on the bill. Stop the filibuster. Just let them vote on the bill. If they do that, we'll be able to pass it.
- [15:43]
Joe Matthew
You think we should do the filibuster like we used to in the old days, like actually have to get up there and filibuster and keep talking until you can't?
- [15:52]
Jason Smith
I think, I think people have to earn their stripes and they absolutely should have to actually filibuster, be talking at the microphone instead of just like, okay, if there's not 60 votes, it's not filibuster proof. That's that's crazy. Force their hand.
- [16:11]
Joe Matthew
Well, that goes both ways, Congressman. I guess that's something you won't have to worry about in the House. But I'm glad that you could join us today, Mr. Chairman, thank you for the insights as always. As I mentioned, he's knee deep in this. He's in the center of it it as chair of the House Ways and Means Committee, Congressman Jason Smith, just one of the voices that we're going to be hearing today, the decision makers who are trying to make their way through this, leading all the way to the speaker of the House himself. He's going to join us in the five o' clock edition, the late edition of Balance of Power here on Bloomberg TV and radio with his view on things having stayed in Washington at this point while many of his members have gone home. They'll be back next week, presumably, but but do join us around 5:20pm Eastern when we talk with the Speaker. Later this hour, we'll talk with a Democrat in Melanie Stansberry, the congresswoman from New Mexico's first district, who knows what it's like to have troops deployed in a town in her state. We'll have more on that coming up right here on Bloomberg TV and Radio. Stay with us on Balance OF power. We'll have much more coming up after this.
- [17:13]
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- [17:45]
Bloomberg Balance of Power Podcast Host
You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at noon and 5pm Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts or watch us live on YouTube.
- [18:01]
Joe Matthew
Here in Washington, there's not only a lot of talk about a government shutdown, and we can tell you that the continuing resolutions up for votes today in the Senate appear to already have failed. There were not enough votes for the Democratic version. They're just wrapping things on the Republican version now. So we carry on to a ninth day tomorrow. And we will be talking later on the late edition of Balance of Power with the speaker of the House, Mike Johnson starts at 5:00pm Eastern Time. The U.S. northern Command says the troops will be mobilized for 60 days in Chicago. This started last night, according to the president's border czar, Tom Homan on Fox News a moment ago. National Guard started working last night. Of course, they've been a few miles outside of the city, more like 50 miles in Elwood, as a matter of fact, the Chicago Tribune reporting in the New York Times, for that matter, troops, about 500 of them spotted carrying riot shields at Elwood, a combination of 500 troops from Illinois and Texas. The question is, when we see them rolling down the streets of downtown Chicago, if that is going to happen. That's where we start our conversation with our political panel today. Bloomberg Politics contributors Jeannie Shan Zaino and Rick Davis are with us. Jeanne is democracy visiting fellow at Harvard Kennedy School's Ashe Center, Rick partner at Stone Court Capitol, our Republican strategist. It does feel a little bit different this time, Rick. This is the third city, of course, following Washington, D.C. where we live and Los Angeles. The mission here is a bit more broad, simply there to protect ICE activities and ICE law enforcement is what we've heard from the administration. Are we going to see troops in downtown Chicago? Sure.
- [19:45]
Rick Davis
And this is not too dissimilar to the rationale they used when deploying troops in Los Angeles. They were there to protect federal assets, buildings, things like that. So they're keeping within sort of an interesting normality of bounds when it comes to what they're being told to do. But of course, you know, I don't think you have to look very far to find a lot of criticism as to whether or not this is anything that would be considered normal in its execution of law enforcement. There are lots of federal law enforcement agencies that could be brought to bear as they were in the District of Columbia to Chicago to assist them. And I don't think the, the governor or the mayor would be opposed to that. But the deployment of US Troops in, in domestic cities across America to do something they're not trained to do, which is law enforcement, is I think, stressing a lot of people out, as well it should.
- [20:51]
Joe Matthew
Maybe it's not a surprise, Jeannie, but city and state officials have not heard from the administration, have been largely kept in the dark on all of this. Mayor Brandon Johnson says they have not communicated with me. And you know what the president has to say about J.B. pritzker. He talks about him just about every day. Although there is one point I could mention on Truth Social. The president kind of reached out writing chicago mayor should be in jail for failing to protect ICE officers. Governor Pritzker also. So should these two men prepared to be arrested? Jeannie?
- [21:23]
Jeannie Shan Zaino
Yeah, I mean, we're so used of his comments and things he says we sort of brush them off. I know I do. You know, nothing surprises us anymore. But the idea that the president of the United States is calling for the jailing of the mayor of one of the biggest and most important cities in the country and the governor of the same state, it's utterly astonishing. And both Johnson and Pritzker did respond to and noteworthy, Johnson said it's not the first time that Trump has tried to have a black man unjustly arrested. Of course, a reference to what Donald Trump did when he before he entered politics in New York City. You know, so you have that kind of statement by the president, no communication. And then you have the National Guard in to protect the ICE troops who are using things like black hospital helicopters to descend on five story buildings and pull people out, including children in the middle of the night. And then our films saying things like, well, after those children, you know, it is a horrific situation there. And it is not horrific because there is crime in Chicago, but that they need to be there for the crime. It is of their own making. And that is what Johnson and that's what Pritzker and and that's quite frankly what the judge out in Portland said. You are untethered from reality if you think you need this kind of show of force to address peaceful protests that have been going on. You can go in and get illegal immigrants, members of gangs without using militarized Black Hawk helicopters and people in masks to pull residents out of their where they're living.
- [23:07]
Joe Matthew
Yeah, well, the legal side of this is pretty compelling. And whatever might Come next here could be interesting, Rick. The U.S. district Judge April Perry in Chicago had given the administration until tomorrow. There's a hearing on Thursday to rule on the state's request for a temporary restraining order. And that judge had kind of suggested the administration wait until Thursday to start rolling out the troops. Does this mobilization make the administration's case more difficult to make sure?
- [23:38]
Rick Davis
I mean, you know, just by even moving these Texas troops to Elwood is putting pressure on the legal system to test their resolve on ruling against them. And of course, you know, this won't stop at this district level. If the administration doesn't get what they want or the governor doesn't get what he wants, they're going to appeal this. So this first skirmish has been really a replica of other things that this administration has done where they want to press the legal case, they want to challenge the courts to limit their power. They believe in, you know, the executive power and what it is able to do in these cases. And they're willing to take it to the courts, do that. So, so yes, they are executing a strategy to put a lot of pressure on the court to rule against them, at which point in time they'll pivot and do it all over again, until at which point it gets to the Supreme Court where they've had pretty good support for the things that they've done in the past, almost winning every case. So, so I think this is all just part of a kind of policy, if you want to call it that, that may not be giving it enough priority, but this has been the policy of this administration. Any city in the country is going to be subject to this, you know, for any, any kind of reasons. If there's a protest, if there's a governor that says something that Donald Trump doesn't like, if, if there's a sanctuary city that is pushing back on ice age agents, all these things could tip this kind of thing into other jurisdictions around the country.
- [25:13]
Joe Matthew
Well, the courts are also going to decide the fate of James Comey. And I have to ask you about the former FBI director entering a not guilty plea to U.S. charges today in Alexandria, Virginia. Pretty remarkable, Jeannie charges that he lied to lawmakers and obstructed a congressional proceeding. His lawyer says that the charges will be dismissed. But we do have a trial set for January 5th. Will he get that far?
- [25:42]
Jeannie Shan Zaino
You know, I don't know. I've heard some people in the legal community say that the trial on January 5th is sort of a place marker. We probably won't see it. And of course, if the charges are dismissed, we will not. But, you know, I think what is so stunning about both of these stories, both the Comey story and, and the raids going on and the nationalization of National Guards into other states is the deadly silence on the part of members of the Republican Party. You know, we have heard almost nothing from anybody in the Republican Party. As a judge, a Republican comes out and says, this is a violation of the 10th Amendment to send these troops in. That used to be Republicans who believed that nothing. And then on Comey, you know, he is charged with lying, obstruction of justice. He has pleaded not guilty. They couldn't even get prosecutors in Virginia to prosecute the case, so they had to bring in two prosecutors from down south to take these charges on. And nothing from members of the Republican Party to say, wait a minute, this is not the way we do business in the United States, where justice, at least theoretically, Joe, should be blind and not subject to so much politicking. And that's obviously what we're seeing. The President himself has said that many times publicly.
- [27:09]
Joe Matthew
No perp walk today for Mr. Comey in Virginia, though. Rick, many folks are looking this as yet another precedent setting moment, another through the looking glass moment when you see the former FBI director hauled into court only days after the President went to Truth Social to urge to his Attorney General to make it happen. How are you feeling about this today?
- [27:30]
Rick Davis
Yeah, there's no question. It's another sort of shattering glass of the judicial institutions of America. And look, I mean, everybody's got a right point here in the sense that, you know, I think the judge is going to look at this and say, you know, is this malicious prosecution? Wow, Joe, just what you said. The President actually ordered it to be done a couple days before the term ran out on the violations. They then had to, as Jeannie said, scramble around because nobody in the Southern District who was charged with this prosecution was willing to take it to court. I mean, like, that tells you a lot about the legal system's pushback, and yet they were able to get a couple people from North Carolina to come up, literally with a day's notice.
- [28:18]
Jason Smith
So.
- [28:19]
Rick Davis
So this judge will likely treat this badly. I can't imagine a scenario where this gets much of a hearing other than this is malicious prosecution, and we aren't going to stand for that in the judicial system. Then the onus is on the Trump administration. How far do you want to go to try and really make a case here? Or was this just to embarrass Mr. Comey and accomplish that and so move on. There are others who are in a similar situation administration who are fighting prosecution and I think there are a lot of people in Washington and elsewhere who worry about this kind of thing coming to their doorstep. And so it is a difficult environment right now.
- [29:00]
Joe Matthew
What a time to be in politics. With the help of our great panel, Bloomberg Politics contributors Jeannie Shan Zaino and Rick Davis. Thank you both for the insights, as always. Stay with us On Balance of Power. I'm Joe Matthew in Washington. This is Bloomberg. Stay with us On Balance of Power. We'll have much more coming up after this.
- [29:20]
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- [29:51]
Bloomberg Balance of Power Podcast Host
You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at noon and 5pm Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. Just say Alexa play Bloomberg 11:30 Politics.
- [30:10]
Joe Matthew
At hand in Washington. It's day eight of the government shutdown. I can now tell you there will be a ninth as both continuing resolutions have failed again in the Senate. This has taken place just since we've come on the air at noon and only moments ago we realized the votes were not there for the Republican CR to pass. It did pass the House, not so much in the Senate. Senate, where of course, the conversation lies. Before we spend some time with the Democratic congresswoman from New Mexico, we've been looking forward to this conversation with Melanie Stansbury. She'll be with us live from Capitol Hill, reminding you that, yes, there are members of the House in town, as we saw earlier when Jason Smith joined us, but spent some time with Senator James Lankford, a Republican from Oklahoma, who knows what it's like to try to strike a deal, remembering the bipartisan deal he struck on the border last year, which was summarily canned by then candidate Donald Trump. The idea of Republicans and Democrats working together, for instance, to extend Obamacare subsidies feels like a foreign language, a foreign concept right now in the nation's capital. With some exceptions, Lankford may be one of them. Here's what he said We've got to.
- [31:20]
Senator James Lankford
Actually have conversations with Republicans, Democrats who disagree On a lot of things. Figure out how we can get 60 votes in the Senate to agree to something and then to be able to move. That's why it's so surprising. During the Biden administration, all four Septembers, we had a continuing resolution during this time period as well, kept the government open while we continued negotiation. That was not an issue. But when President Trump comes, Democrats are now saying we're just going to shut the government down, not negotiate. That doesn't help us.
- [31:50]
Joe Matthew
Well, Senator Lankford, whether it's now or when the government reopens, they'll have to be a negotiation at some point. The president indicated yesterday that talks with Democrats, Democrats were underway, at least on an informal level, on extending Obamacare subsidies with maybe some new guardrails around it. You know a lot about making deals, Senator, and we watched you put, I think, four to six months of your life into a very important bipartisan deal on the border that the president then turned away from. This was last year, of course, before he was in office. Candidate Donald Trump affected the outcome there. And I know you don't need me to tell you what would be different this time. Would you lead a gang to help negotiate something on health care, or would you have advice for others who are.
- [32:32]
Senator James Lankford
Well, I would say first and foremost, we got the president, the House and the Senate all on the same page to be able to work through that. At that time, I was trying to be able to navigate a situation where I had a Democrat president and I had a Republican House and a Democrat Senate and trying to be able to figure out how do we actually solve this intransigent issue of open borders with a president that did not want to close the borders. So it's a very different issue at this point, now that we have a president that does want to be able to solve this, the problem of the budget. We have the House and Senate that do want to be able to solve this. We've got to be able to figure out how to be able to navigate it. Now, there are a couple things on the on the Obamacare subsidies, the Obamacare subsidies, the base level are not in the argument. These are plus ups that were done during COVID and this is what a lot of my Democrat colleagues are trying to conflate. It's not the base subsidies being talked about. This was the temporary ups for Covid that they're trying to say they now want to make permanent. That's a very different issue.
- [33:26]
Joe Matthew
No, you're right to point that out. And we've tried to make that delineation when we talk about it as well, Senator. So that begs another question. Should they be sunset altogether? We're not in a pandemic right now. Do you fade this out after a year because Democrats want a permanent extension?
- [33:41]
Senator James Lankford
Right. Democrats actually put that in during the inflation reduction Act. They said this was temporary for a health emergency and were sunsetting it at the end of 2025. So it already has a sunset. It was set there by Democrats when they said this is only for the pandemic time period. And now they're saying, just kidding, I want to be able to make that permanent. The difficult question is, yeah, the Affordable Care act is either not affordable because they continue to need more and more and more subsidies on it drives up everyone's insurance cost. So we got to figure this out. It's one of the things that the president said he wants to go back and look at what is systemically driving up the rates this way. We can't just keep pouring more money into it over and over and say the way that we make it more affordable is more tax subsidies.
- [34:27]
Joe Matthew
Republican Senator James Lankford of Oklahoma talking with us on the late edition of BALANCE OF Power yesterday. Just the latest in a series of voices from the Senate from both sides of the aisle that we brought to you in the past week. And we want to cross back over to the House now for a conversation with the congresswoman from New Mexico, Melanie Stansberry, the Democrat representing Mexico's first district, with U.S. live now on Capitol Hill. Congresswoman, it's great to have you on Bloomberg TV and radio. We've made the point that the House is out of session. What compels you to be in town right now? And should all members of the House be here?
- [34:59]
Jeannie Shan Zaino
Yeah.
- [34:59]
Melanie Stansbury
Well, let me just point out that it's not just that the House is not in session. The speaker of the House has shut down the House and is refusing to call his own members back to Washington, D.C. and in fact, Democrats have shown up now, now, week two, we are here. We are fighting to get a bipartisan deal to reopen the government, to address American health care costs and to make sure that our democracy works for all Americans. And if Mike Johnson is not going to call us back, we are still going to continue to show up for the American people because that is what we do. Now, I do take a little bit of difference with what I just heard from my colleague across the aisle here in this Senate. We are fighting to make sure that Americans healthcare doesn't get jacked up in the coming weeks. We're talking about your healthcare premiums going from let's say 300, $400 a month up to 800 $1,000 a month. This is not just some hypothetical about health care policy. This is about real costs that real Americans are going to feel in the next few weeks if we don't act now.
- [36:07]
Joe Matthew
Well, you know what Republicans say about this, and we just heard from Jason Smith before you joined us, that this is unrelated to the funding issue, that Democrats don't object to anything in the bill. So you should pass it and get the Congress reopened to actually have a negotiation over Obamacare subsidies. How would you respond to him?
- [36:25]
Melanie Stansbury
Well, that's absolutely ridiculous because Republicans control the House, the Senate and the White House. And they spent the the first nine months of this year working on a domestic policy package that cut health care, that cut food assistance, that cut educational assistance, and that gave billionaires multi billion dollar tax breaks permanently and slashed benefits for millions of Americans. And so for them to claim that you shouldn't use a budgetary process to enact policy is the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard in my life because they just, just spent nine months doing that and taking American health care away. And now they're refusing to fix what they broke. So their arguments hold no water. And the fact that the House is closed and the speaker is refusing to bring people back to even negotiate, even if they did want to cut a deal, they couldn't because the House isn't even here.
- [37:23]
Joe Matthew
Part of the reason why I wanted to talk with you, Congresswoman, is that you're a former OMB staffer and the Office of Management and Budget has the kings to the castle, the keys, I should say, to the castle. Right now, President Trump is talking about potentially laying off mass numbers of furloughed workers. He's also suggesting that some of the furloughed workers now who are not receiving paychecks not be made whole when they come back to work. I realize the speaker takes issue with that. He believes that federal workers should be paid and receive back pay when they come back. But as somebody who's been inside the agency at omb, talk to us about the decisions that are being made right now and how much leeway Russ Vote has over federal spending.
- [38:06]
Melanie Stansbury
Well, I think we've seen time and time again this administration seems to have very little regard for the law. But the law is very clear here. You cannot fire federal workers during a shutdown. And we pass passed legislation in 2019 to guarantee back pay for federal workers. So whatever the president says he cannot just make stuff up. The law applies, and they cannot withhold pay from federal workers. So if you are a federal worker out there listening to this, if you receive a RIF notice, if you receive notice that you're not going to receive back pay, that is just untrue. You have rights and the law is on your side.
- [38:44]
Joe Matthew
Congresswoman Stansbury, I want to ask you about a separate matter. As National Guard troops mobilize outside of Chicago, it appears that we have a third city now where National Guard troops are being deployed by the president. But there's something interesting that's been going on in your state. The Washington Post reported on this a couple of weeks ago because there are, in fact, National Guard members who have been in the city of Albuquerque now for more than 100 days. The headline on the story, this blue state governor sent the National Guard to her biggest city. No guns, no Humvees, no arrests. This deployment looks very different from the way President Trump has used soldiers in places like D.C. and Chicago. In fact, you've got guys and gals walking around in black polo shirts and khakis, not carrying firearms and have actually come to know some people in the community. Some folks have come to rely on them. What is your governor, Lujan Grisham, doing differently than the president in making this work?
- [39:43]
Melanie Stansbury
Well, there's a fundamental difference between a governor coordinating with local officials and local law enforcement to provide additional support and backup where it is wanted and discussed and deployed in a safe manner in a community, versus the president illegally deploying National Guard to states and cities where it is unwanted, where the governors and mayors have said, no, do not send them, and is trying to use legal authorities that frankly don't exist. It's also very clear that the president is doing this as a show of force. He is trying to scare the American people. He is trying to show that he has power, and he's going to send individuals in with guns to scare the American people to back up his policies. But that is not the same as a coordinated legal authority under which a governor and local authorities use the deployment as a way to support local law enforcement.
- [40:41]
Joe Matthew
Well, I think it's a fascinating story because this is, of course, an extremely controversial issue when you factor in the matter of posse comitatus and to see this happening in your city, with crime in Albuquerque now falling across most all categories, this idea in this year, I guess it runs against the grain of those criticizing the idea of using National Guard troops and speaks to the nuances of how we can use them. Do you agree?
- [41:11]
Melanie Stansbury
No, because actually, the reason why crime is falling in Albuquerque is because we have had a sustained investment over the last seven years in behavioral health programs and getting fentanyl off the street and in community policing. And so the ad over the last several weeks of additional support for law enforcement helps to relieve pressure on existing law enforcement, but it is not what actually drove crime rates down in Albuquerque. What drove crime rates down was actually investing in our community and behavioral health.
- [41:44]
Joe Matthew
Would you like to see these hundred or so troops continue their jobs in Albuquerque?
- [41:50]
Melanie Stansbury
What I would like to see is continued investment in behavioral health and getting fentanyl off the street because that is the number one thing driving crime in most major cities in America right now. And we have an addiction crisis and we need to be investing in our communities.
- [42:06]
Joe Matthew
Now we're talking about National Guard troops and there's a question about military of active duty military troops going without pay starting on the 15th. Congresswoman, some folks are pushing for a standalone piece of legislation to pay them out of money from the president's big beautiful bill. We've only got about a minute left. Speaker Johnson says no, we already passed a bill to pay the troops. How about you?
- [42:27]
Melanie Stansbury
I personally, personally think we need to pay our troops. We're here in the Capitol. Our Capitol police are not getting paid. We need to pay our troops troops, pay our federal employees and get the government reopen. And that requires Mike Johnson reopening the House.
- [42:43]
Joe Matthew
Well, I appreciate your joining us live from Capitol Hill, Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury from New Mexico with us live on Bloomberg TV and Radio, a former OMB staffer with a sense of exactly how some of these decisions are being made on funding agencies and furloughing workers. Of course, this being day eight of a government shutdown and there will be a ninth, as we told you, if you're just joining us, both continuing resolutions, the Republican and Democratic versions have failed again in the Senate. Thanks for listening to the Balance of Power podcast. Make sure to subscribe if you haven't already at Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And you can find us live every weekday from Washington, D.C. at noontime eastern@bloomberg.com the forces shaping markets and the economy are often hiding behind a blur of numbers.
- [43:29]
Tyler Kendall
So that's why we created the Big Take from Bloomberg podcasts, to give you the context you need to make sense of it all.
- [43:35]
Joe Matthew
Every day in just 15 minutes, we dive into one global business story that matters.
- [43:40]
Tyler Kendall
You'll hear from Bloomberg journalists like Matt Levine.
- [43:43]
Jason Smith
A lot of this meme stock stuff.
- [43:44]
Joe Matthew
Is, I think, embarrassing to the sec.
- [43:47]
Tyler Kendall
Amanda Mull, who writes our Business Week Buying Power column.
- [43:51]
Jason Smith
Very few companies who go viral are, like, totally prepared for what that means.
- [43:56]
Tyler Kendall
And Zoe Tillman, senior leaders legal reporter.
- [43:59]
Melanie Stansbury
Courts are not supposed to decide elections. Courts are not really supposed to play a big role in choosing our elected leaders.
- [44:08]
Joe Matthew
It's for the voters to decide. Follow the Big Take podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.