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Do that with the all new Adobe Acrobat Studio. Learn more@adobe.com do that with Acrobat. Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts Radio news. You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at noon and 5pm Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts or watch us live on YouTube.
- [00:58]
B
Many people spending their Christma holiday digging through Epstein files. Lawyers, journalists, there are rooms full of them with thousands still to pour through. And you know, we got another dump yesterday. We talked about it here with an interesting wrinkle, a bit of an update on how this is going to work because so far it's been very difficult to follow. It's not coming out chronologically. There's no schedule for release because they were all legally supposed to be put up last Friday. The Trump administration, according to Axios now estimating it's got about one week to go. All right, so maybe this will barely crack the new year, as many as 700,000 more pages to review before they're made public. And then the redactions and all that stuff happened. So far about 750,000 records have been reviewed and disclosed by a team of about 200. So it's not just the journalists and lawyers, it's the doj, of course, and they've got national security folks pouring through the files and all the rest of the this has become a full time operation for Erik Larson and his team. Bloomberg News legal reporter joins us ahead of our conversation with Dr. James Zirin, who's got some thoughts about this. Eric is at world headquarters in New York and it's great to see you. Happy Christmas Eve, Mr. Larson. But the interesting here, we've got a week to go. We're still just barely getting through the the documents that we have. And pretty interesting among the findings, the newer findings, a photograph of Donald Trump and Ghislaine Maxwell that came off Steve Bannon's cell phone. Is anything else popping out to you here that's new?
- [02:36]
C
Well, you know, like you said, we got that first batch on Friday and then another one late Monday that everyone was pouring through yesterday. Lots of people here and around the world, I'm sure, looking through those files, some of the things that we found related to Trump. There were a lot more references to Trump in the second batch of files. For example, references to flight logs on Jeffrey Epstein's private jet said that it was an internal. It was a prosecutor's email from the Southern District of New York to an unknown individual referencing how often Trump was on that flight log. It's indicating that it was much more often than they had expected. And including flights where it was just Trump and Epstein listed as the only two passengers, and another flight where it was just them and a 20 year old individual who was not named or whose name was blacked out, I should say. So there were a lot of references to Trump, Trump's use of Epstein's jet, even though Trump has maintained and said explicitly last year that he never flew on Epstein's jet. So there was more details about the private jet says scenario. And also some internal FBI intake forms in which people had called a hotline about Jeffrey Epstein and given some details about what they. Some allegations and some claims that they made about Trump and Epstein. They were pretty explosive. Of course, they're not proven or anything. These are just intake forms from tips. It's unclear what happened beyond that. And of course, there was the reference in a letter that Jeffrey Epstein purportedly sent to Larry Nassar around the day he committed suicide.
- [04:18]
B
Eric?
- [04:18]
C
Yeah, I was just gonna say they said it was fake. Yeah, so that's.
- [04:22]
B
That was another update. You know, we're trying to be fair here, and it's like, you're never going to satisfy everybody on Twitter. But that is important. One of our panelists brought this up yesterday. This is the. This is the infamous. What did we call him? He was. He was a doctor for. For gymnasts, right?
- [04:42]
C
Exactly. Yes.
- [04:43]
B
2019 jailhouse letter from Epstein to Larry Nassar was post dated after Epstein's death. So I guess that's all we need to know.
- [04:53]
C
It's true. They. They said that they were looking into it yesterday and then hours later came out officially saying the FBI had found it was fake. It. It interesting they didn't come to that conclusion before they published it in the Epstein files, but there you go, right?
- [05:07]
B
Processed by a Virginia mailroom that did not handle letters from Epstein's New York jail as well. Eric, thank you. You're really making me doubt my wardrobe choices. Today. We got another. Eric's got a tie on Christmas Eve.
- [05:20]
C
Thanks for Branding, like you said, no one's watching.
- [05:24]
B
That's right. Famous last words. Well, they're listening. I mean. That's right. Dr. Zirin is with us. I've been looking forward to this. Former Assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, James Zirin, on the latest here with regard to the Epstein files in an important Supreme Court ruling yesterday. Doctor, it's great to have you back on Bloomberg TV and radio.
- [05:46]
D
Well, you.
- [05:47]
B
What is getting your attention that's coming out of these files right now.
- [05:50]
E
Yeah, you honor me because I'm hardly a doctor. I'm just a lawyer. I did get a degree called Juris Doctor, but. Got it. I think the first person who's ever called me doctor, and I'm delighted.
- [06:03]
B
Well, you make us all sound smarter that way.
- [06:06]
E
That's right.
- [06:06]
B
What's any. Anyway, what do you make of the rollout of these files? They're not chronological. There are questions about the redaction, some of which can be removed because they weren't actually blacked out. They just. They just did this digitally here. How's the administration doing so far?
- [06:25]
E
Very badly, even among its most ardent supporters. I mean, Ezra Klein in the New York Times this morning said the right is at war with itself over the Epstein files, and the production is clearly not in compliance.
- [06:46]
A
You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at noon and 5pm Eastern on Apple Podcast and Android Auto, the Bloomberg business. Listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. Just say Alexa. Play Bloomberg 11:30.
- [07:05]
E
Now 30,000 more. There are references to Trump. The redactions are just astounding. I've never seen a production like this where entire pages are redacted. We don't even know the context. If you wanted to protect the privacy of victims, you'd say Joe Smith said to. And then you'd have the victim's name redacted, and then you know the context. But here, we don't even know the context. We don't know why it's redacted. We don't know whether it's protecting victims. We don't know whether it's a pending investigation. The two. The only two outs that the Congress gave the Justice Department. So it's a very haphazard, sloppy production which isn't going to pass muster. Already Senator Schumer wants to introduce a bill to require full compliance. We don't know how far that will go. But I'd like to ask you. The entire matter isn't over yet.
- [08:10]
B
I talked to Congresswoman Becky Ballard, Democrat from Vermont yesterday, she's the at large member from Vermont who is really animated about the lack of disclosure so far, the redactions as you put it. And she says Congress will hold the DOJ to this law. Here's what she said.
- [08:29]
F
We deserve to get the information unvarnished, unfiltered from this release of documents. And of course the president and his team are going to try to spin it. But just the fact that there were eight flights that he was on that he did not admit to. There is other material here. And Americans can handle the truth. We want to see the truth.
- [08:51]
B
Americans can handle the truth. You know, there's talk about Tom Massie and Ro Khanna holding the attorney general in inherent contempt. Massie also asserting is going to pursue an impeachment of the attorney general. Will any of these approaches work?
- [09:08]
E
Well, impeachment clearly won't because I doubt it will pass the House. If it passes the House, you won't get the 2/3 majority in the Sen. Whether they can hold him in inherent contempt. It's something that's seldom been used or hold her because it's Pam Bondi who has the ultimate responsibility for it. But there'll be a lot of chatter in Congress about this and there'll be a lot of chatter in the press about it. And it just as Yogi said, it ain't over until it's over.
- [09:47]
B
Well, we're hearing from some victims. You know, victim whose name was left unredacted in files released Friday says her name appeared several times. She's getting unsolicited calls now about it. And a Statement signed by 19 women, 19 victims released by their attorneys. They say the files did not include financial disclosures and that grand jury minutes previously approved for release were fully blacked out. They're accusing the DOJ of clear cut violations of the law. Will victims cases make a dent in this?
- [10:21]
E
I think there's going to be a lawsuit brought by members of Congress to have the judge inspect the files in unredacted form and decide whether the production has been complete. This often happens in litigation and usually it's referred to a magistrate. In this case, it might have to be referred to five or six magistrates. But they will review the files. The files are searchable and determine whether these redactions comply with the law or don't comply with the law. And I think that's really the remedy there.
- [11:04]
B
It's great to talk it out with James Iron. It's been a while. I'll call you a doctor one more time if you want to Former Assistant US Attorney for the Southern District of New York. Thank you, Doc, and have a great Christmas. We'll assemble our panel which might have some thoughts on this. This was not the only legal story moving the needle. Yesterday though, here in Washington, we heard from the Supreme Court. Pretty important deal here. A 6:3 ruling to prevent the President of the United States from mobilizing the National Guard in the city of Chicago. A rare rebuff from the Supreme Court for the administration. We're going to get into that now and consider what it might mean for other cities around the country when we assemble our political panel. Next, they'll have the latest two on Epstein Files. Jeannie Shan Zaino and Lisa Camuso Miller are spending this Christmas Eve with us. So stay with us. As always On Balance of Power right here on Bloomberg.
- [11:57]
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A
You'Re listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at noon and 5pm Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloo Burke business app. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts or watch us live on YouTube.
- [12:45]
B
Yep, it must be Christmas. Happy Christmas Eve to you and thank you for spending part of it with us here On Balance of Power. Doing things a little bit differently today and I'm glad you're with us. Former Congressman Denver Riggleman is going to pay us a visit. Talking a lot about trouble in the labor market. The slowdown that we've been seeing prompting the Fed to cut rates even in the face of of stubborn prices. The most recent metric we find with the holiday brings us to the mall. Mall Santa Things are not great for Santa this year. You thought I was going to talk about consumer spending? Know the job market here for those looking for temporary work, gig workers, the guys who put on the Santa outfit. There's not as much work this year. This follows of course the pandemic when everybody was trying to get on the bench here. Fascinating story in Axios. Mitch Allen, who runs Hire Santa. This is a staffing agency that does big business once a year. Not just the malls, but the private parties and the corporate stuff. All the rest, he tells Axios People calling to inquire about four hire Santas to appear at malls, schools, offices, private events are down almost 30% from 2024 for mall Santa's. Some of that soft demand is structural and long in the making. There are fewer malls and more people are doing their holiday shopping online. But still, if you went to the trouble to buy a Santa outfit, you either put on a bunch of weight or chose not to take it off. You got the beard up there, it's very itchy and you can't get hired this year. It might speak to what's happening in the economy as well. And that's where we start with our political panel. Bloomberg Politics contributor Jeannie Shan Zaino is with U.S. democracy Visiting Fellow at Harvard Kennedy School's Ash Center. And Lisa Camuso Miller is here, too. Republican strategist Rock Solutions, former RNC spokesperson Happy Christmas Eve, guys. If Santa, Jeannie, if Santa Claus is feeling the pinch in the job market, we know of course, that it's beyond just the holiday. We talked about this concept of affordability versus abundance with Frank Luntz a short time ago and I'm wondering your thoughts on this as well. The s and P525 minutes ago closed at a new closing high, a new all time, all time at the closing bell. But the president is telling people that they don't need as many dolls or pencils for Christmas this year. How do we rationalize those two facts?
- [15:27]
F
Yeah, Joe, I just want to say I was just told that the NORAD tracker has Santa departing the North Pole about three hours ago. So no worries. He is coming for anybody out there. And I know you're going to track him carefully, Joe. I know you're going to, you know, we can ascribe it to the K shape. We can talk about the Goldilocks. The reality is something that most presidents get very frustrated by and most public officials, which is that there can be very strong numbers and the president has had good numbers in the last 48 hours and the latest you just mentioned. But people have to feel them. And if people aren't feeling them and consumer sentiment polls say that they're not, then that is a problem politically. And we've seen this divide with Joe Biden. We're seeing it now with Donald Trump. Of course, it was much easier when Donald Trump was candidate Trump to blame Joe Biden and say he was going to come and fix it. Now he's here. He's still blaming Joe Biden and saying it's nothing to worry, nothing to look at here. So you know, he's got to wrap his head around the fact he's in office and he's got to be a bit more empathetic. And I'll tell you who's doing an okay job on this is JD Vance of all people telling people to hold off, wait, it'll come. Yep. So there we are.
- [16:47]
B
Well, you know Jeannie, I just want you to know we got the NORAD tracker up here. If you're with us on YouTube, this is why you need to see the show on YouTube. He is apparently over, over the ocean somewhere right now. Ed Duffner reports he is avoiding Greenland over the ocean currently. When I got what are they going to do? Is Santa going to be able to get over the Caribbean? That's like, didn't the President close that airspace? He does have by the way, in the guidance he's going to be doing something with NORAD later on. He's going to take part 4:30pm from Palm Beach. He's going to take part in the norad. Santa calls Lisa. Do you remember when the president did that in the first term and he asked a seven year old girl if she still believes in Santa? Is that what we get later?
- [17:30]
G
I don't know. I mean I think that that's so difficult, that's such a difficult conversation to have, especially if you're the President of the United States. I mean, I think more than anything let's focus here in on the magic of Christmas and the magic of the holidays. And that really goes back to the value, the value of being with those you love, whether it's family or friends or just being amongst pets that are good to you. Right. I mean that's the biggest thing here. Now the breakdown between what's reality and what's, what's happening though, Joe, is precisely what you got back to is that even though the market itself appears to have really rebounded and is in a really good place, the problem is that affordability and the cost of living has gone up so much in the last three years that people are still, still catching up. And that's precisely what the Vice President is talking about. The President's words I think were a little imprecise when he talked about dolls and pencils for I can't imagine he ever went to Macy's to shop even though I'm sure the movies had him there. You know, it's to me more about just sort of meeting people in the reality that they're living in. And certainly I hope the president does not ask anyone if they believe in Santa Claus because really, it's none of his darn business.
- [18:42]
B
So brutal. You gotta. I mean, that was a moment for YouTube, by the way. I'm probably ruining some Christmas for a poor kid in the backseat of his awful parent who listens to Bloomberg. I hope that's not the case and I'm sorry to your family if that is. Yeah, I'd. Boy, Jeannie, I don't know when the president starts talking like Jimmy Carter though, that's the part that gets me. You don't need the dolls, you don't need the pencils. You know, we can pull ourselves up by our bootstraps a little bit. That's one thing when it's Jimmy Carter with, with the cardigan sweater. It's another thing when it's a multi billionaire who's playing golf in Palm beach today. Is it not that. It's just the words might be the same, but that message is going to land differently.
- [19:25]
F
It is, Joe. You make everybody's Christmas Eve better. So don't ever say such a thing. It's all good.
- [19:31]
B
I'm just sorry.
- [19:35]
F
You know, it is. I mean, there is this sort of, you know, two different pictures of Donald Trump, the gold plated White House, the big ballrooms, you know, the big parties that he's throwing on Halloween and yet talking about austerity, it just doesn't fit well. And this has been a messaging problem. I mean, there is, you know, the Donald Trump that is campaigning and very good at being an outsider. But once he's in power and he's in control, he's got nobody else to blame. And so he's sort of, to your point, adopted a Jimmy Carter message. You know, I think the President is setting up a problem, quite frankly for Republicans who are now as the, they are home now. They're going to hear a lot from their constituents. They're going to come back. Are they going to adopt this, oh, affordability is all a hoax message or are they going to side with their constituents and say it is very real? And they're going to have to say it's very real because unlike Donald Trump, their names are on the ballot in a few months. And so it does create a lot of problems, not just for Trump and the administration, but for Republicans turning coming back. And Joe, if I can just add more, one more thing on the Santas, if you could please do a reading of David, David Sedaris Santaland Diaries about His time as an elephant, Macy's. It would fit right in with this story.
- [20:55]
B
I'll work on that. You know what, there's also the optics of the gilded Oval Office. Incredible reporting today in the New York Times. If you've not seen this story, they spent time in the Oval like no one has, cataloging each inch. And all of the changes that have taken place over the last year. There have been a lot of them. By the way, the flags are abundant as they write, five times as many as most other presidents displayed. We've got the gold framed copy of the Declaration of independence. Portraits now, 20 of them, mostly of presidents past. Except there is Jackie Kennedy. Yeah. By the fireplace. The only image of a woman in the Oval. The President requested that fascinating gold statuette of an eagle flying over the Constitution. Arrived last month. Near the flags behind the desk, a wooden box with a red button. You know, that's the Diet Coke button. That's different. It's not gold. But the question of whether the gold is real also acknowledged when you look at all the frames, the mirrors and the photos, some thought that this was just cheap plastic. No, the White House says that while the underlying materials are made of plaster or metal, they are covered in real gold leaf. A craftsman from Florida travels to the White House on the weekends to guild parts of the Oval Office by hand, typically when the President is away. And Lisa, I know you've been on the Oval Office. This is fascinating. You know about the peephole in the outer Oval. Most people don't know about this. There was a peephole that until quite recently would allow staff to just check on the meeting to see what's going on in there, make sure you president's all right, you're going to walk in, you know what you're walking in on. Trump has blocked the peephole with new mirrors. If the door is now closed that you see next to the fireplace there, they cannot see what is happening in the room. What do you make of all the changes and the optics of a gilded Oval Office, which was at one time a very simple, minimalist, stately Oval Office? Lisa, has it been improved?
- [23:00]
G
Joe, I have been visiting Trump properties for as long as I can remember. Don't forget, I grew up in New Jersey politics, where we spent a lot of time in the casinos of Atlantic City. I have been to his properties in a variety of places all across the country, New York City, they all look like this. This is his style. He is a real estate guy. And so while some of us turn up our nose and think it's a little over the top. It is precisely his style and precisely what you could expect from him. And perhaps the mirrors are just part of the decor. But also too, you know, this is, it's the preference of the president. And so I suspect that that's probably what has happened here. But if you've ever been visited a Trump property, the mirrors and the gilded, the gildedness is very much on brand for this president.
- [23:48]
B
30 seconds left. Jeannie, are you surprised Donald Trump's the first president to block the people?
- [23:55]
F
No, And I'm not surprised it's with a mirror because how else can he see more of himself, Joe, unless he's got more mirrors. So he never gets enough. So more mirrors the better.
- [24:06]
B
I wasn't trying to set you up like that. I am surprised that another president before now did not block the peephole. Great conversation, you two, and thank you so much for spending part of your Christmas Eve with us. There's only one Jeannie. Shan Zaino, Bloomberg Politics contributor. Jeannie, thank you. And I'm so happy that Lisa Camuso Miller could be with us, our Republican strategist. Merry Christmas to you both.
- [24:26]
A
You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at noon and 5pm Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. Just say Alexa, play Bloomberg 1130.
- [24:45]
B
President Trump, of course, by the way, he did tweet Merry Christmas or put it on Truth Social, all caps. It was 12:40am yes, indeed. Twas the night before Christmas. And all through the house, not a creature was stirring, except for the president's mouse. I stole that from Ed Duffner knowing that the president has not been projecting a message of abundance on this Christmas holiday. Quite the opposite. Listen, they gave you high prices.
- [25:19]
E
They gave you the highest inflation in history.
- [25:21]
H
And we're giving you, we're bringing those prices down rapidly. They say, oh, he doesn't realize prices are high. Prices are coming down very substantially.
- [25:29]
E
But they have a new word, you.
- [25:30]
H
Know, they always have a hoax. The new word is affordability. I have no higher priority than making America affordable again. You can give up certain products. You can give up pencils. You don't need $37 for your daughter. Two or three is nice.
- [25:47]
B
You don't need 37 dolls for your daughter. Maybe there'll just be two under the tree tomorrow. So when we wanted to get into this topic today, when producer Matt asked me, who would you want to talk to about that. You can have anybody. We didn't have to think about it very long. How do we get Frank Luntz on the air is always the question in the newsroom. Then Matt makes it happen. And here he is now, of course, the famed politics and communications consultant, pollster, CEO of fil, a man who can speak to the conscience of Americans in a way that most people cannot. Frank Luntz, welcome back to Bloomberg. Happy Christmas Eve. How do you get to this contrast with a billionaire president who's building this massive ballroom and is playing golf in Palm beach right now as we speak, not broadcasting a message of abundance with the stock market at an all time high, but in fact telling people almost like Jimmy Carter to put on a sweater, turn the heat down. Frank Lentz, you don't need all those dolls and you can give up pencils. What do voters make of that message?
- [27:01]
D
You know, it's the best of times, it's the worst of times, and a lot of it depends on who you voted for. We used to divide by income and education, then we divided by race and ethnicity and now we're dividing by whether we're Democrats or Republicans, whether we voted for or against Donald Trump. For the people who voted for Donald Trump, these are the best of times. Even those who are economically challenged believe that things will get better and they have faith and confidence in the president. For those who voted against him, as he himself says he could cure cancer and they still wouldn't give him a break. We live in America today that's hopelessly divided, that's polarized beyond anything we've seen since the late 1960s. It's become toxic that we now that it's actually become more important than our religion. Our faith has become our politics. And that is as divisive and polarizing as it can possibly be. So it's hard for me to give you an overall assessment because it depends on where you sit and how you vote.
- [28:07]
B
That's right. And that is why it's so difficult for people, I guess, to find common ground in so many cases on this holiday. You know, there are folks who are nervous about going to Christmas dinner with the family. Frank, I'm sure you talk to a lot of people like this because they don't know what's going to come up at the table. This brings us back to that, that contrast that we felt in the first term and I would love to just go back a year with you and have you walk us through the evolution that this, this president and this administration has experienced, remembering A year ago, him being swept into office with one of the most remarkable and unlikely political comebacks in American history. We saw the hiring, of course, of his staff, the placement of his cabinet. And over the course of this year, we've seen prices remain extremely stubborn. We've seen the volatility around his tariff regime. And we're capping this year with the release of the Epstein files. That seems to be overshadowing everything, including this massive increase in health care premiums because Congress can't seem to get anything done. Is there buyer's remorse inside this White House?
- [29:15]
D
Now, let's be fair. We've also seen the solving, not putting a band aid on immigration, but actually solving the problems at the border. And that's one of the issues that Donald Trump ran on. Now, the danger for somebody like me is that if I say something positive, points to a success, that everyone and I have them in my head as I'm thinking about what I'm going to answer you. And they're all going to say, oh, he's a Trump apologist, or he's a Trump loyalist. And if I challenge him on, on inflation, on affordability, all the Trump people will see this and they'll say, oh, you can't give him a break. You're just challenging him. You're just hostile to him. In the end, the reason why Bloomberg is so important is that you don't have a choice. You have to tell the truth. People make decisions based on what they hear from your show and the other shows on the network, and those decisions determine whether or not they have an economically great year or bad year. And so we have to be honest. And here's the problem. The thing that bothers me the most at the end of 2025, it is so hard to tell the truth and to do so and be backed up by people who watch shows like this, because in the end, the American people don't want to be informed. They want to be affirmed. And I hope that that's not the case with the Bloomberg viewer, because there are good marks for the president and there are bad marks, and both of them are correct. There are successes and there are failures. Just as in America, we have our own successes and own failures. Make the mistake. There are a significant Number of Americans, 55%, more than half, who in some way live paycheck to paycheck every week or every month, struggling to pay their bills. There's one third of Americans who cannot afford a $500 emergency bill. And there's 45% of Americans who cannot afford a $5,000 emergency. That's not a country that's sleeping well at night. That's not a country that feels comfortable with the future. And it's our responsibility, yours and mine, to tell the truth, because if we do, that's how you solve the challenges and to accept that people have to learn to work together side by side to get these things done.
- [31:42]
B
Well, I love that answer on so many levels, Frank. Because if I ask you about stubborn inflation, it will be assumed that I am only giving the president a hard time. Right? If I ask you about the success at the border, we have the same mirror image of you. If I ask you about that, then I will be accused of defending the president. When did we get to this space in time? Does this predate the first Trump term? Or it's since social media, more than that.
- [32:17]
D
It's. It's hyper right now. And I want to go back to health care because that's something I've been studying over the last few weeks. It doesn't matter what the solution is. That I read in the media and I see in the media right now that the issue is whether or not they continue the price supports, they continue the subsidies for Obamacare. And that's not the point. It's not whether or not you agree or disagree with a specific policy. It's whether your solutions are better able to bring costs down to make things more affordable and most importantly, to make health care less expensive. The president is correct, and I will emphasize this, that he is correct when he says that the public desperately needs support and that in the end, they trust the individual more than you trust either the government or the health insurance companies. We're ending this year with both of them being demonized legitimately for high prices. And he's suggesting, though the message is not getting through, that he's suggesting that it's far better for the government, whatever it's going to do to give it to the individual than it is to hand it over to the government or hand it over to the health insurance companies. So that's where the president is right. The president is wrong on dismissing, on calling it a hoax. Because if you can't afford eggs or you can't afford meat, if you can't afford the house you want to live in, or as we talk about insurance, either health care or otherwise, they aren't affordable to you. No matter what he says, it's still a fact, because in the end, it's about perception, not reality. So here I praised him for health care. I've challenged him on the word of affordability because he really needs to change his hostility to it. It's how the Americans communicate. So in the end, our objective is to make a meaningful, measurable difference, is to improve not just quality of life but also standard of living because both of them matter. And in the end, the only way that's going to work is if they start in Washington, if they stop, I should say these endless fights and learn how to cooperate and compromise. And compromise is a bad word. So maybe you should just stick with cooperate. But it's up to them to make a difference, stop blaming each other and start solving the problems.
- [34:46]
B
Cooperation. I think we learned about that on Sesame Street. Frank, it's great to see you. I really appreciate it. I know that you're up at West Point and I hope that everything is well with the people close to you, that the cadets are well, and that you have a healthy 2026 in front of you. Frank Luntz with US File Many thanks for all the insights over the course of the last year here on Bloomberg. We've been through a lot this year. Stay with us on Balance of Power. We'll have much more coming up after this.
- [35:15]
H
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- [36:25]
A
You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at noon and 5pm Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. Just say Alexa play Bloomberg 11:30.
- [36:44]
B
Big questions about what might happen in Venezuela. Well, we're not paying as close attention on Christmas. Of course. There's always folks paying attention to the Bloomberg newsroom. But with America paying more attention to the holiday friends and family, it's an opportunity to do some things. Maybe we'll get another Epstein file dump. We know that that will continue coming for at least another week with 700,000 more pages. And we also know that we have been moving more troops and material into the Caribbean. The question is why? Talked about the motivations behind the administration's policy in the Caribbean yesterday with Jake Auchincloss, the Democratic congressman, Marine Corps combat veteran who served in Panama for a spell, helping to train Panama security forces on drug interdiction, working with the Colombians. And so he knows about an operation like this. And when we hear about V22s, C17s bringing even more potential strength to the region, the question is whether we're on the march to war. And it might not matter, according to the congressman, if that's what the administration is aiming at. Sometimes you can sleepwalk into a scenario that you can't get yourself out of. Here's how he put it. There is a way to responsibly try to manage regime change in Venezuela to support Macado over Maduro. And Maduro absolutely is a tyrant who has immiserated his people. There is a way to ensure that the Chinese cannot exploit those oil reserves, that the Iranians and Russians cannot exploit those oil reserves, but rather that they are used for the benefit of the Venezuelan people, of the Latin American people. But this is not the way to do that. What this is is sleepwalking in to the same kind of mistake that George W. Bush made in Iraq, sleepwalking into war. It's where we start our conversation with Denver Riggleman. Been looking forward to seeing Denver. It's been a while. Former Republican congressman, of course, from Virginia, U.S. air Force Intelligence. Now the CEO of the company rigged Denver. Welcome back to Bloomberg and Merry Christmas Eve, broadly speaking. And I want to ask you, with your special ops background and your, your background in intelligence, I want to ask you about what you think this most recent deployment is all about. But do you agree with Congressman Auchincloss, who used the term yesterday, blood for oil. Is that why we're there?
- [39:12]
H
Well, you know, what a, what a good, easy question to start with. Thank you. I tell you, Merry Christmas.
- [39:18]
B
We'd do some, some light holiday programming. Denver.
- [39:21]
H
There's some light programming. I love it. You know, when I was listening to Jake in that comment. And I'm looking at what's going on in Venezuela. First of all, you have to start looking at the reasons why it might happen. And when you're looking at the reasons the administration is using, the reasons that they're using, simply like these are drug runners, we're stopping this amazingly awful drug running into the United States, there's a. There's a lot of countries that are a lot worse. And when you're looking at China, and I'm just going over what Jake said and what you talked about at the beginning, Joe, when you're looking at China and you're looking at Belt and Road, there's some countries that they have much more, I would say, penetration into. When you're looking at Argentina, Peru, Panama. Right. And I was there in 2020. 2019, 2020, on a congressional delegation looking at Belt and Road challenges for trade there. So I'm pretty familiar with South America, probably too familiar. I'm very familiar with South America. So when you're looking at this blood foil, the only thing, when you start looking at the reasons that this is oil based, because they are not the primary threat when it comes to drug trafficking in any way, I would say they're not even a secondary threat. So that's the first thing. And when you're looking at Venezuela, I don't know if people look at the geography of Venezuela, when you're looking at drugs coming into America, you're looking at Mexico and you're looking at other northern South American countries that are much more capable and much more dangerous when it comes to that. So I have to say that that's the fact. Now, the one thing I would disagree with is sleepwalking.
- [40:52]
B
Okay.
- [40:53]
H
I think there's a difference between sleepwalking and incompetence. I don't think that this administration is sleepwalking at all into this conflict. I think that they're being driven by, by personal incentives, but also by donors, but also by certain other things that we might not be seeing that really come down to business decisions and using the military to enforce those business decisions. And I think what you've seen from the administration so far, I think would back that up as something, as just an educated opinion without all the facts and what's going on behind the door in the White House.
- [41:26]
B
Interesting. So what are we positioning for? When you hear about the assets that we sent down just this week, the Wall street journal, the first to report 10 V22 Osprey tilt rotor aircraft. You've got a C17 cargo plane from Fort Stewart, Fort Campbell. And you know, the units that are at Fort Campbell, Fort Stewart, we're talking about the 101st Airborne Division, the 75th Ranger Regiment. Why would you send them down there?
- [41:49]
H
Well, you know, either your saber rattling, right? Chest thumping, it's a threat to get to negotiations, or you're looking at specific incursions. And you know, President Trump isn't real great at keeping, keeping classified data. Right. He's, he's publicly announced CIA involvement, which mind bogglingly, you know, incredibly, I would say ignorant to do. But I think that we're, we're definitely saber rattling, but doing mission planning. If I'm looking at C17s rolling in, I'm looking at some of those specific units that you talked about rolling in there with V22s also, when you're looking at any type of carrier groups, but you're also looking at, we have amazing reach when it comes to even our bottom bomber patterns out of the United States in our bases, even fighters coming out of specific areas. So really what it comes down to, but it looks like it's a mission plan, right? A joint mission plan that they're trying to execute right now. And I used to do this. I mission plan, as you know, that's my background, is mission planning multiple assets to go after targets, mostly terrorists or ground forces using air power. So my guess is, buddy, is that this is a joint mission planning effort. Either. Saber rattling, but I do think they're probably pretty serious on some ground incursion at some level into Venezuela.
- [43:01]
B
Wow, that's really something. Potentially a deterrent, as you mentioned, but there's a purpose here. You mentioned the President confirming reports of a covert CIA operation on the ground in Venezuela. What are they doing? Are they mapping targets? Are they, are they doing advance work for an invasion or are they trying to prevent one?
- [43:25]
H
Well, goodness. Now these are interesting questions right there. So again, an easy Christmas interview. Joe, I tell you, I think, you know, I don't want to guess what the CIA is doing. I probably can, but I think there's a few things that you look, I think there's a few things that you can look at generally when you're looking at intelligence preparation of the battlefield called IPB or Intelligence Preparation of the Battle Space, they might have a new acronym for that. But what you're looking is Order of battle. You're looking at other sorts of things, right? Order of battle being what their position of their forces are, what they have on the ground, what their geolocations are. And I'm sorry, let's use another word where they're actually located so we can get to them. But there's some other things I think they're possibly doing, especially when you're looking at money, a lot of money. I don't think people know this. When you're going into another country and you're first in, there's a lot of money that transacts from contractors and things that like. Like that for food stuffs and things of that nature, but also other things. So, you know, I think that's all I'm going to talk about. But my guess is there's a lot of things going on just besides the CIA.
- [44:29]
B
Okay, so you do know. Now I'm starting to understand. All right. By the way, this is kind of like a, a Trump cognitive test. The questions get harder as you go. Denver so let's talk about the Epstein files. That's sort of a joke, but I am going to invoke the Epstein files.
- [44:46]
H
Actually.
- [44:46]
B
When lawmakers come back from Washington, Republicans have got a lot of stuff to deal with. It's not just the president here. There's massive rifts within the party. And you used to serve with a lot of these same individuals when it comes to, yes, the Epstein files. When it comes to war powers, the story that we're talking about with regard to Venezuela, when it comes to health care, and there's a thought that this could all collide when lawmakers return into yet another government shutdown. What does Speaker Johnson do? What does the House Republican leadership do to keep that from happening?
- [45:20]
H
Speaker Johnson's in an impossible situation. He has to do things that are unethical. So what you're talking about is he has to listen to the president and try to, you know, maneuver through, maybe even. You talk about sleepwalking, sleepwalking into another government shutdown. Right, Joe, you know, we have that, too. And when you look at the Epstein files. Right, the Epstein files, when you look at Venezuela and things of that nature, they are just distractions from the Epstein files. But I think that what you're having happened in MAGA right now, what he has to try to fight is the sepsis that's seeping into maga. And I think there's three things that have happened where we are getting the first real indications that MAGA is not only in trouble, it might be in a flat spin. I think the first thing is the Epstein files. I think when you see the releases, not only how much Trump, I mean, the fact that he's in there so many times so they try to redact it out. And the incompetence of the DOJ with the redactions, we can do a copy paste and look at the redactions. I mean, for me, I'm just shaking my head like, how could you be more incompetent? And the stuff they forgot to redact and then they had to retract. If we can't redact, retract. I think that's the new statement. Right. So I think that's the one thing that's seeping in, because when you're looking at MAGA, you also have that QAnon bent where that hatred of pedophiles, even with conspiracy theories, they're already aligned not to trust Deep state or globalist with these massive pedophile rings. And it looks like Trump's part of it. So that's sepsis. That's the first part of the infection. I think the second part of the infection that Mike Johnson has to worry about is healthcare and the economy. And I think when you're looking at rates going up through the roof for healthcare, you have another piece of infection that's setting in. But the third thing I think that really finalizes the complete infection of MAGA is war. And MAGA is inherently nationalist. So when you have these three things, the Epstein files, healthcare, Medicaid, you're talking about the economy, people not being taken care of, and you have proactive war without the ability to really rationalize it in any cogent way. And you're already seeing what the Trump administration has done to enrich his family. But those around him. I think that sepsis, that boil has popped, and I think it's starting to pus a little bit. And I think that's the issue that Mike Johnson's going to have to fight with in Congress.
- [47:31]
B
Wow. Yeah. Light holiday fair is how we build.
- [47:35]
H
Hello, Merry Christmas.
- [47:36]
B
That we're making. Good on it.
- [47:39]
E
Denver.
- [47:40]
B
All right, so what do you got to. Two minutes left or something like that? What's your favorite Christmas movie? I'm serious. What do you watch when you sit down with your wife on Christmas Eve?
- [47:49]
H
You know, everybody says Die Hard, you know, but I think the best Christmas movie.
- [47:54]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [47:55]
H
If you want to be cool. But it's a. It's a Wonderful Life is the best. So people just need to.
- [47:59]
B
Yeah.
- [48:00]
H
Take it from me.
- [48:00]
F
Right.
- [48:01]
H
Yeah. And I think. Because it actually has a message. I mean, I, you know, there's other. Of course, there's the one they play every year. What is it? Oh, gosh. I just forgot the name of the one that I watch every year that was made in 1983. A Wonderful Christmas.
- [48:14]
C
Yes.
- [48:16]
H
A Christmas Story, obviously. Yeah, Christmas Story. So there's that. So I think that's really a great movie. But, you know, I am a little bit worried this Christmas, Joe, in these last two minutes, I just hope they let Santa Claus into our airspace. I don't. I don't know if he's a US citizen, so I'm a little bit worried with the way things are going to. I. I hope Santa can.
- [48:32]
B
We were just watching him on the NORAD feed. He's out over the ocean there and he's trying to get around Greenland and Venezuela. This is fraught. It's a fraught journey this year.
- [48:40]
H
It's a close journey right now, buddy. I tell you, I hope they have good rain.
- [48:45]
B
What are you drinking on Christmas Eve? Give us some advice at Silverback Distillery. Is it bourbon? Is it browns or clears on Christmas Eve? What are you pairing with dinner?
- [48:54]
H
You know, it's always browns on Christmas Eve. And the thing is, I know a lot of people the bourbon and straight rye. But here's what you need to drink this. You need to drink honey rye with whiskey. You know my wife, silverback honey rye whiskey is the best Christmas tree.
- [49:07]
B
I knew there'd be an answer. He's over land now, Cece. Where is he? I can't figure out where the sleigh is right now. Hey, Denver, it's great to see you. Thanks for humoring Christmas Eve and I hope you have a great holiday and state of Virginia, former Republican Congress. A Merry Christmas to you as well. And to you. Thanks for spending a couple hours with us today on Bloomberg Foreign. Thanks for listening to the Balance of Power podcast. Make sure to subscribe if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And you can find us live every weekday from Washington, D.C. at Noontime Eastern@Bloomberg.com these days, it seems like AI agents are just about everywhere you turn, every field and every function. But without identity, you can't trust they'll serve your business instead of jeopardizing it. Fortunately, Okta helps you get identity right by securing your AI agents identities, giving you a single layer of control, a single standard of trust. So whether an AI agent supports a single user or your entire enterprise, with Okta you'll turn risk into opportunity. Secure every agent, secure any agent. Okta secures AI. We buy insurance for peace of mind. But every year, millions of claims are denied. Not because people did anything wrong, but because their policies quietly excluded what happened. Insurers know every detail. Policyholders rarely do. That's why MyPolicyAdvocate exists for just 27 cents a day. Their platform reads your policies and explains where you are vulnerable. They don't sell insurance. They deliver transparency. Before you trust your policy to protect you, let my policy advocate tell you what it really says. Go to mypolicyadvocate.com.