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- [00:00]
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- [00:38]
Bloomberg Intro Announcer
Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts Radio news. You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at noon and 5pm Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts or watch us live on YouTub Tube.
- [01:01]
Joe Mattey
Live from the Kennedy center here in Washington, of course, President Trump speaking to the Saudi Investment forum that is underway today featuring the likes of, as you just heard, Scott Besant, Howard Lutnick, both in the front row as we look at the room here, Elon Musk there in person as well, along with dignitaries from Saudi Arabia. He was introduced while we were just coming to air by the crown prince himself, Mohammed bin Salman, who was not speaking through translation. And President Trump. Now, if he makes some more news, we'll keep you posted on what's being announced because this has become a day of deals announced by the likes of the aforementioned Elon Musk, his ex AI to build a 500 megawatt data center in Saudi Arabia that will rely on chips made by Nvidia. Which brings both of these gentlemen here to Washington, D.C. on Nvidia earnings day, which is quite remarkable that we'll be talking with him later. Ed Ludlow in an exclusive interview with Jensen Huang, not to mention his earnings call apparently will be coming from the nation's capital here. This follows news yesterday that the President was going to greenlight the sale of advanced AI chips made by Nvidia to Saudi Arabia, not to mention the sale of F35 fighter jets. So a lot to unpack here and we're lucky to have Aaron David Miller with us as we try to let some of this news settle to get a sense of exactly what the US Got in return for this treatment. The senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace is with us now on Bloomberg and it's great to see you, Aaron. The headline on the terminal is Trump's Warm Welcome Gives Saudi Prince Lopsided Rewards. Does this feel lopsided to you?
- [02:42]
Aaron David Miller
It does you know, having worked for administrations from Jimmy Carter to Bush 43, having voted for Democrats and Republicans and worked for them on this one, I think clearly the Trump administration gave a lot more than it got. Now, maybe some of the deets are not yet clear in terms of the reciprocity, but this was a visit designed, I think, far more than anything else to demonstrate that whatever concerns, doubts, anxieties that the US and the Trump administration has had about MbS, his human rights record, the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, full disclosure here, Jamal was a friend of mine. Whatever doubts, they're all in the rear view mirror now. And what struck me extraordinary, his extraordinary Oval Office yesterday, was how comfortable the Crown Prince felt both in that Oval meeting with the President and how comfortable he now feels. In fact, he introduced the President at Kennedy center. Rather, it's rather remarkable. And I think, Joe, we have to keep in mind that the average length of a Saudi king's tenure, then they've had seven kings, including King Salman, who MBS will one day replace is 13 years. Mohammed Salman is 40. He could rule Saudi for 50 years. It's extraordinary. And he's, he's got a long view and he wants to get as much as he can from the US without giving a whole lot with respect to distancing himself from Russia and China. 360° foreign policy for this guy and we're part of it.
- [04:32]
Joe Mattey
Wow. All right, so you pointed us there. And I want to ask you about the comments that we heard from both of these men in the Oval Office yesterday when an ABC News reporter named Mary Bruce had the gumption to ask about this. The President himself, who said that MBS is doing a phenomenal job on human rights. He said, you're mentioning somebody that was extremely controversial. A lot of people did not like that gentleman you're talking about in Khashoggi. Whether you like him or didn't like him, things happen, he said, but he, MBS knew nothing about it. We heard from Mr. Khashoggi's widow on CBS News last night. Aaron, here's what she said.
- [05:15]
Anna Ashton
There is nothing to justify the crime. Even if you don't agree or like certain person because of his opinion or vision for his country to say he's controversial and he is unlikely, it does not give anyone right to just kidnap him, torture him, kill him and dismantle his body. Yes, and this did hurt me a lot. And it's taking away as well, it looks like taking away the freedom for the journalists to do them jobs.
- [05:47]
Joe Mattey
I want to give you some space here, Aaron, how did we go from the killing of Jamal Khashoggi, the fist bump heard around the world, to now Saudi Arabia being designated a major Non NATO ally?
- [06:01]
Aaron David Miller
18 other countries in addition to the Saudi have that distinction. It doesn't imply a mutual defense agreement or at least a defense agreement, but it's significant. The Qataris have it as well. So the President's notion that Saudi is among a rare few is really not accurate. How we got here, just one data point, Joe. When US Presidents are inaugurated and they take their first foreign trips abroad, they don't go to Saudi Arabia. And in Trump 1.0, 2017, this was the president's first trip. First foreign trip. Now he went on to Israel and then on to meet with NATO allies. But clearly the best part of his trip, without a doubt, was the Saudi part. SWORD DANCES and I think it reflects the fact that of all the sub regions of the Middle East, Saudi Arabia is the most important country. To the President, it represents the scene of his diplomatic triumph, the Abraham Accords, and he hopes to add Saudi at some point. It represents hydrocarbons and oil. It represents extraordinary business opportunities for the Trump Business Organization. And again, let's be very clear here. I worked for a lot of administrations. No American president has ever blended the line between the American national interest and the President's family's business interests. It's extraordinary to me, really is remarkable. So that's how we got here. And I think the justification and the President's comments, I mean, even the Crown prince, if I heard him wrong and he said this before, that this was a mistake. Eight Saudis were put on trial.
- [07:51]
Joe Mattey
That's right.
- [07:51]
Aaron David Miller
Where they are now is unclear. I'm not sure at all that they're in prison. But the President's remarks, not only dissing Jamal Khashoggi, but essentially a blanket, a blanket excusing of the Prime Minister. He had no knowledge of this. So I think it again reflects the fact that for this president, Saudi Arabia is a valued partner and human rights. Khashoggi is killing. The repression and arbitrary detention of Saudi citizens that is pervasive in Saudi today. This stuff doesn't matter.
- [08:32]
Joe Mattey
Got about a minute left, Aaron. Should Saudi Arabia be leaving town with F30 fives?
- [08:39]
Aaron David Miller
They're not going to be leaving town with the F35 eyes, which represent enhanced avionics and comms capacity and radar function. That if the F35 is what we give to the Israelis, I would. It strains the bounds of credulity to the breaking point that this administration would give F35s given to our NATO allies without demanding certain intelligence constraints and protections from allowing this technology to be accessed by the Chinese. And I'm hoping the export version of this, I suspect, won't be the F35i that we give the Israelis. But again, President wants to make Mohammed bin Salman happy and you have 35 is a part of that happiness package.
- [09:32]
Joe Mattey
I feel like we're going to need to talk again when we do get the deets. As you say, Aaron David Miller, thank you as always for being with us here on Bloomberg. Senior Fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, I'm Joe Matthew in Washington. That's where we start today. On Balance of Power. We've got a lot more ground to cover. Stay with us On Balance of Power. We'll have much more coming Up after this.
- [09:55]
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- [11:00]
Bloomberg Intro Announcer
You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at noon and 5pm Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York store station. Just say Alexa.
- [11:16]
Joe Mattey
Play Bloomberg 11:30 Flurry of deals that have been released since the crown Prince arrived here in Washington. Want to mention a couple of red headlines that just crossed the terminal? And Michelle, it's great to see you back here today. All of this ties into the AI story. The United States now planning to own up to 10 new nuclear reactors, according to officials at the Department of Energy. The DOE Chief of Staff speaking at the conference in Tennessee that we've got an eye on here. When it comes to energy, this would be an incredible development in a country that had completely turned away from nuclear energy, but is in desperate need of this power now because of data centers.
- [11:56]
Michelle
Right? That's right. And certainly another tangent in a long speech that is ongoing right now with Trump at the investment forum. So a lot to unpack today, but it all comes back to this part two, day two of the NBC visit and what will come out of it. So hopefully we can kind of organize all the thoughts that are swarming.
- [12:15]
Joe Mattey
Well, that's for sure.
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Michelle
That is certainly one of them. Jensen Huang is playing center stage today.
- [12:19]
Joe Mattey
Yeah, that's right. To see Wang and Musk together on stage. By the way, Jensen Huang was wearing a suit, no leather jacket. Let's see if that is the case when he talks to Ed Ludlow later on. But we're talking about just a massive data center and a massive amount of computing power that's being dedicated to Saudi Arabia with Elon Musk rolling this out with Jensen Huang. Because they'll be relying on Nvidia chips.
- [12:43]
Michelle
Well, certainly. And there's the big question too, not only with Saudi Arabia but also with China. How much do we allow to be transferred? What is advanced and when you transfer the tech, will it be safely in the hands of the person that it's intended for?
- [12:57]
Joe Mattey
Exactly.
- [12:57]
Michelle
Or could it be transferred further?
- [12:59]
Joe Mattey
I wonder what Anna Ashton has to think about that. This is coming off our conversation with Denver Riggleman yesterday as he described the potential for leaks or creep or whatever we want to call it in Saudi Arabia. Knowing that the country is buying, for instance, weapons, defensive weapons systems from Russia will now be owning F35s, will now have access to high end AI chips made by Nvidia the likes of Blackwell. Does any of this end up in the hands of the Chinese? She's the founder of Ashton analytics and a specialist in US China trade. Former China analyst with the Department of Defense. Anna, it's great to have you back. Are we on the right track here?
- [13:41]
Anna Ashton
Far be it for me to answer that question, but I will say, you know, it's reasonable to ask whether or not this presents some sort of leak risk that could allow the Chinese to get a hold of the more advanced Nvidia chips that Nvidia is not allowed to sell into the Chinese market. These are definitely much closer to top tier chips than what China can buy. And you know, there's this awkward reality that China has built large parts of Saudi Arabia's digital and telecom infrastructure in order to strengthen its relationships in the Middle East. Now that stuff's going to be run, you know, with US chips according to US rules, maybe so that, you know, that does potentially give China access, although there are a lot of controls in place on the US side that, that are supposed to prevent that. But more importantly, it changes the strategic game for China vis a vis Saudi Arabia and the Middle East. You know, it potentially limits China's influence and it complicates its strategy of making Saudi Arabia a long term tech partner. It complicates China's plans for the digital belt and road.
- [14:56]
Michelle
Well, just to offer the counterargument, and of course you've been attuned to this, I'm sure, but the debate has really been heating up between the China national security hawks and the tech world. And what we hear often from the White House, particularly the likes of David Sachs, is that you can be a China national security hawk or XYZ national security hawk and still embrace the tech side of it. Is there a way to thread the needle? Is there a way in this argument to assure that the tech can be transferred safely and securely and still benefit in all the ways that you would from tech prosperity while also guarding against the national security risk?
- [15:32]
Anna Ashton
I mean, certainly that is the position of people like Jensen Huang. And it is, it is also, you know, absolutely the case that these very tech companies that give the United States its competitive edge in any tech competition with China, you know, do need to be able to access bigger markets than just the US and Europe. They need to be able to sell their chips abroad and lots of other places in order to have the funding to remain at the competitive edge. Especially when we're talking about China's government bankrolling a lot of the efforts to catch up with US check advantages. And one of the biggest markets there is, of course, is China.
- [16:22]
Michelle
Well, and I want to follow with something a little more China focused and given that's also your expertise. In any case, Bloomberg was reporting last week that the US and China have yet to agree on the sort of rare earth export controls lifting that was agreed between the two leaders. Where do you see that conversation going? Do you have any sense of whether or not there will be some sort of agreement to kind of free up the rare earths that, that the US side so badly wants?
- [16:48]
Anna Ashton
I mean, definitely we've had lots of signals that there, there is an agreement in the works. I mean, there have been announcements from Chinese government agencies and announcements from the US Government indicating that that's that's the track that the two countries are on. The question is, are the US Perceptions of what was agreed to the same as the Chinese perceptions of what was agreed to? You know, in the past, it really mattered coming out of any U.S. china talks whether or not there was a joint statement. And it mattered because of the fact that there often were differing perceptions about exactly what the two sides had signed up for. We don't often have any sort of written outcome document now, one from either side, let alone one that is a joint outcome document. So there certainly are questions there. And, and, you know, I think it's important to reiterate that even with the agreement in place and moving forward, regardless of whether it looks like something that Washington thinks it is or whatever Beijing thinks it is, it's not permanent, it is temporary, and it is not a total lifting of all restrictions. It's simply, you know, a lessening of, of the hurdles for the US to get access to certain, certain of these materials.
- [18:17]
Joe Mattey
Anna, what does Beijing think, What does President Xi think of this dance this week in Washington between President Trump and the Crown prince?
- [18:29]
Anna Ashton
I'm sure that it is not a surprise because we've seen that Trump has courted the Crown Prince in the past, and, you know, he takes a very.
- [18:40]
Joe Mattey
Threatened by this relationship.
- [18:43]
Anna Ashton
I don't think that Xi Jinping is threatened by this relationship, but I do. Do you think that he has to be taking it seriously as potentially complicating his own relationship with Saudi Arabia? Absolutely.
- [18:57]
Michelle
Yes. Certainly a lot to explore there. And also the Russia component, that's one thing that we were bringing up yesterday in our conversations with guests about whether or not the tech transfer, particularly of F35 military aircraft, could, could fall in the hands or the wrong hands in any case, in the U.S. s view. I mean, going back to what we were talking about previously, do you. Where do you see Russia kind of playing into this conversation at the moment?
- [19:23]
Anna Ashton
Well, I mean, I imagine that there are both worries and reasons for optimism in Moscow as well as Beijing, because, you know, on the one hand, I think that there's. It's obvious that there is a desire to not see the US Cozy up to the Crown Prince and be able to facilitate a stronger US Saudi Arabia relationship. Both Russia and China have interests in keeping that relationship from being too close. On the other hand, you know, the kinds of technology that the US Is offering to Saudi Arabia absolutely. Are of interest to both to both China and Russia, and Saudi Arabia may potentially provide an avenue for accessing those.
- [20:12]
Joe Mattey
And we talked earlier on the sidelines of Bloomberg's New Economy Forum in Singapore with John Waldron, president, chief operating Officer at Goldman Sachs, who addressed the geopolitical risk here when it comes to the engagement of the US And China. Listen to what he said.
- [20:29]
John Waldron
I think that the, the dynamic between the US And China, which we call increasing strategic interdependence. So the countries are interdependent, but there are going to be areas where they're going to be more focused on national security. And because that relationship is getting much more complicated, you're seeing more fragmentation around the world. And so a lot of the conversation here in Singapore this week has been about fragmentation, new regional alliances, redesigning supply chains. You know, I worry about that because it's a new world order, and we don't really know what to expect in that new world order. And I think that will create disruption and pressure in the system, which is, you know, kind of unprecedented for, for the system that we've operated under for quite a long time.
- [21:09]
Joe Mattey
So, Anna, where does the Middle east, where does Saudi Arabia fall in that new world order?
- [21:15]
Anna Ashton
I think that Saudi Arabia and the Middle east are going to be important to a new world order, maybe not any more important than they are in the current world order. You know, they're positioning themselves to just sort of graduate from their traditional dependence on fossil fuels to run their economies and their economic growth to becoming tech hubs. And they've been doing so pretty successfully so far. So I do think that they're going to remain important. I also think that the, the thing that was said there that deserves a little extra attention is that the US And China remain interdependent, because, yes, we do. But one of the things that the China's working very hard on is reducing that interdependence on its own side, just as we have been trying to reduce that interdependence. And, you know, I think that there's a real question as to how fast that might happen. And, you know, what will this new World order look like if there is less interdependence, especially on the tech front?
- [22:18]
Michelle
Well, certainly a lot of big questions we've been tackling today and all week. And if I could just go in the moment, today we've got the Nvidia earnings report. What are you looking out for?
- [22:30]
Anna Ashton
You know, I'm looking out for any sign that gives more clarity as to exactly what the US Government is prepared to allow Nvidia to. To sell and what that means for possible. What that means for possible U.S. government earnings or U.S. government accruals of like a piece of the pie in those Nvidia sales.
- [23:02]
Joe Mattey
And it's great to have you back. We appreciate your insights. The founder of Ashton analytics on an important day here as we gear up indeed for the Nvidia earnings report in Michel the the thread that goes through all of these stories is national security, whether we're talking about AI chips or F35, the transfer of technology. And that's going to be a big part of heart of this earnings report this evening when we consider export controls for the likes of China and other countries. We want to just do a quick beat with our panel on this. Rick and Jeannie are here, Bloomberg Politics contributors Rick Davis, our Republican strategist and partner at Stone Court Capital, joined by our Democratic analyst, Jeannie Shan Zaino, democracy visiting fellow at Harvard Kennedy School's Ash Center. Jeannie, what's your take on this? Are we mortgaging our national security in the sake of creating this new world order?
- [23:52]
Jeannie Shan Zaino
You know this, we've had this debate so many times in American history. I think back to the post Cold War era. This was the debate going on. Bill Clinton was trying to move towards free trade with China and all of the more hawkish folks in the Democratic Party said not so fast. So it's a continual debate. It is necessary that we keep up with the time, so to speak, and that we really do have this openness. But at the same time, we have to be careful about the impact on national security. And so I don't see this as a, you know, you can go one way or the other. You've got to have people in both camps in the United States who are watching like a hawk to make sure we don't veer too far in one direction or the other. So I think moderation is the watchword here.
- [24:39]
Michelle
Well, Rick, we talk a lot about, you know, who are our friends. Is the White House dealing with the right people? Are they talking about for the sake of talking, giving an open forum, or is it resulting in deals that are worthwhile for the U.S. i mean, can the White House and Trump specifically, can they make the case that this Saudi visit is part of something that is a down payment on longer term prosperity?
- [25:02]
Rick Davis
Well, I think that's exactly where this administration was headed even in the first term. Look, there's a reordering of the global, you know, alliances. And this administration and previous administrations, both Republican and Democratic, have been fighting over turf in the Middle East. You know, remember at one point in time, the Chinese were trying to build a port in the UAE and the United States stepped in and said, you got to make a choice. Either you're going to be aligned with us or you're going to be aligned with them. There's no in between. UAE decided to be aligned with us. I think this is part of the same kind of an effort. It's not whether we can fit into the technology that China has on the ground in, in, in Saudi Arabia, it's how hard can we push to get it out of Saudi Arabia. And moderation hasn't worked with China. That's what put us in the position we're in now. China is an adversary in trade, in national security, in, in, in international culture and regulations. I mean, there's nothing that we really agree upon right now with China. And so as this world gets more and more opportunistic, we have to be there shouting our name.
- [26:17]
Joe Mattey
Rick Davis and Jeannie Shan Zaino will stay with us. Our panel stay with us. On balance of power. We'll have much more coming up after this.
- [26:27]
AutoTrader Announcer
Auto Trader is powered by Auto Intelligence, the hyper personalized way to buy a car. Autotraders tools sync with your exact budget and preferences to tailor the car shopping experience totally to you. Budgeting lets you input your info to see listings in your price range. Search and inventory helps zero in on your dream car. You can choose from new or pre owned, the style of the car and the features like engine size, color, all the way down to whether you want a trailer hitch. Go ahead and get picky. Don't worry about scrolling endlessly. AutoTrader powered by auto Intelligence Auto only shows you vehicles based on what you can afford and what you want and pricing shows you which listings are the best deal so you can feel like you're winning the negotiation without negotiating. You can even choose how to close the deal online at the dealership or a little of both. Autotrader Powered by Auto Intelligence makes the process of buying a car less of a process. Try it today. Visit autotrader.com to find your perfect ride.
- [27:32]
Bloomberg Intro Announcer
You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at noon and 5pm Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. Just say Alexa play Bloomberg 11:30.
- [27:51]
Joe Mattey
It's any time now. The President at any time could sign the discharge petition. The bill that was passed to Florida forced the release of the Epstein files. I guess technically the discharge petition is what forced the vote on the Epstein files. Now the question is whether the DOJ will be compelled to release them, knowing, in fact, that the president ordered investigations into Democrats like Bill Clinton that could prevent these files from being released while an ongoing investigation is underway. But I'm jumping too far down the road here. The fact of the matter is all but one member of Congress voted for the release of these files yesterday. Only one member of the House, Clay Higgins, the aforementioned Cajun, John Wayne, back when he was a sheriff, now Republican member of Congress from Louisiana, framed this as a stand on principle. He voted no. Everyone else voted yes. I asked Pete Aguilar, Democratic Congressman from California who chairs the Democratic Conference in the House, his thoughts on this and how the numbers were so overwhelming. Here's what he said. This shows that, you know, Donald Trump allowed them. He said he was in a losing position. He knew he was in a losing position. He knew this was going to happen. And so he basically directed all of them, all of our colleagues on the Republican side, to vote for this measure. And so that's the power of Donald Trump as well. He has said himself, he's the president and the speaker. He proved it today with that vote. Remembering, of course, Michelle, that the president could compel the DOJ to release these files literally at any time, pick up the phone, release the files, we'd be done. But he's still following this channel.
- [29:32]
Michelle
Well, and far be it from us to predict what will happen next, but we can raise these questions, and that is a good question. Where does he go next with the doj, and will he draw on the powers that he has of the president to direct them, to keep things safe.
- [29:46]
Joe Mattey
Knowing he could have done that at any time?
- [29:48]
Michelle
Yes.
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Joe Mattey
In the last nine months or whatever it's been here. Knowing as well that he's, as I mentioned, ordered the investigations into the likes of Bill Clinton, Larry Summers and others. He's pointing the nation's attention toward Democrats. But he has also said he's going to sign this bill. So we're wondering when this happens. You've covered the White House. He could pick up the pen, do that anytime today, right?
- [30:08]
Michelle
Yeah, he's got quite a busy day, of course, just coming out of that investment forum. And of course he wants to keep the narrative on this sort of prosperity as well as affordability that we keep losing in the past few days with everything else going on. But certainly he wants to own the narrative and not in a way that highlights any of this. So maybe, you know, we could see a midnight signing or something meant to be more under the radar.
- [30:30]
Joe Mattey
That's right.
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Michelle
To try to keep it out of the front page of the news.
- [30:32]
Joe Mattey
Maybe late Friday night. We'll see. Could happen any moment now. And that's where we start with our panel, Bloomberg Politics contributors Jeannie Shan Zaino and Rick Davis. Davis are with us. Rick, his partner, Stone Court Capital, our Republican strategist, Jeannie, our Democratic analyst, democracy visiting fellow at Harvard Kennedy School's Ash Center. What do you think, Jeannie? Are we ever going to see these files or will there always be the so called smokescreen of an ongoing investigation?
- [30:58]
Jeannie Shan Zaino
I don't think we know yet. But I do think that you were just talking, you and Michelle, about the right question is the next step is the president's signing. And I am very curious if he does try to do a midnight signing on or if he listens to the victims. I was so moved, Joe, by those victims, those women standing out there and holding up. And I'm sure you saw this, the pictures of themselves, 13, 14 and 15 very young girls saying this was me when I was abused, raped, assaulted by Jeffrey Epstein. And they have asked the president, some of whom voted for him, to please have them in for a signing ceremony because they want what they have gone through to be recognized. And I think it would be so powerful if the president would do that. So I'm very curious to see what happens after that. Of course, it is on to PM Bondi and the doj. And to your point, do they try to hide behind a smokescreen of new investigations to not release files? But I think in the long term, the fact that this is a bill out of Congress, it's going to make that all that much harder to do. But they could try.
- [32:07]
Michelle
Well, Jeannie, you hit on one thing that I did want to kind of ask about, which is the survivors, as they call themselves, haven't gotten a whole lot of play amidst the talk about will he or won't he sign, what is he going to do with the doj, that sort of thing. But they were the center of attention for the likes of Marjorie Taylor Greene and others who have been pushing for this. And they were actually, in fact, the center of attention, arguably for Representative Higgins, who said that he voted against it because he was worried about the disclosures hurting the survivors. So where do you see that going from here? Where we can. I mean, we're obviously focused on the procedure of all this. But are we going to be hearing more from the survivors, you think, in the days to come?
- [32:45]
Jeannie Shan Zaino
I do think so. They have waited so long to get any relief. They suffered in silence for so Many years. And they have been pushing for this. Their attorneys worked with Congressman Massie, worked with Ro Khanna to get this bill put together. And I think, you know, when we talked about it, it was, you know, it's a discharge petition. Those never go anywhere. The fact that they pushed this, and I think I agree with Massey and Khan, it's really on the work of these victims that they were able to push this over the line in the sort of triumphant, victorious way I don't think any of us imagined. And so I do hope that we hear more about them. This is what they've been asking for, that what happened to them not be forgotten and that the people who either were a part of it or who turned the other way and apparently are prominent members of our society even today have their reckoning. And I think that we will hear, I hope we hear more from them about that.
- [33:42]
Joe Mattey
Well, there's an interesting ad that's on the air that involves the victims themselves. I don't know if you guys have seen this, but it's kind of interesting that it's coming from Reid Hoffman who has been linked to Epstein in a series of reports. And even the President of the United States has called on him. Reid Hoffman posting this ad on Twitter writing the Epstein files must be released in full Tonight. I supported World Without Exploitation behind the ad to run this ad on Monday Night Football. So you might have actually seen this already. Let's give this a taste for our viewers and listeners.
- [34:21]
Michelle
I was 14 years old. I was 16 years old.
- [34:25]
Joe Mattey
14 years old.
- [34:27]
AutoTrader Announcer
This is me. This was me.
- [34:28]
Jeannie Shan Zaino
This is me when I met Jeffrey Epstein.
- [34:30]
Michelle
This is me when I met Jeffrey Epstein. There are about a thousand of us.
- [34:49]
Bloomberg Intro Announcer
It's time to bring the secrets out of the shadows.
- [34:53]
Joe Mattey
Now for the benefit of our radio listeners. It was exactly what Jeanne was just describing. Close up shots of the victims current faces. Now they're standing directly in front of the cameras with a black background and holding images of themselves when they were victimized. We see the contrast of their young faces with the way they look now. The ad goes on to read five administrations and we're still in the dark. Now I don't know what the deal is with Reid Hoffman or what any of these files may or may not say about him.
- [35:27]
Anna Ashton
Rick.
- [35:27]
Joe Mattey
But as someone who has worked with campaign advertising extensively over the years, I wonder what you see the impact of this campaign being.
- [35:37]
Rick Davis
Yeah, look, this is a very powerful ad. I think that it reminds us that this Epstein controversy has been in the public domain for almost 25 years. And, and so it is sort of a subtle reminder that just because it's been around so long doesn't mean we actually know much about it. Previous administrations, both Republican and Democratic, have swept it under the rug, which gave rise to incredible conspiracy theories as to why that was and what we don't know. And so we finally come to the pinnacle of this moment where Donald Trump will sign a bill passed by Congress, started by a discharge petition with unanimous consent from the Senate, which never happens. And we will now then see these documents. I can't imagine a scenario where the Justice Department can take that kind of volume of activity that has welled up over 25 years and not respond to the moment. This administration arguably has done everything wrong when it comes to managing this crisis since the day of his inauguration. And you just got to hope that they get this part right, because this will not go away. It's, it's had legs. When everyone thought it would go away, it didn't. And, and it's not about to, to be out of the front page of our attention spans in the future. When these documents come out, and with all the search capability you have, we're going to learn a lot of new things. And if it's not clear what it is, the Department of Justice and the Trump administration is going to come under withering pressure to clarify things that are maybe redacted and, or not ultimately produced.
- [37:34]
Michelle
So, Rick, understanding that the White House hasn't taken your advice in the past several months on this issue, I'm wondering what you would say to the Republican Republicans, especially in the Senate, but also in the House, who maybe said, don't release the files, and now have voted for the release of the files. What do you say to them as they prepare for this midterm campaign that is not so far off in the future? How are they going to play this? How should they be prepared to defend switching on this issue?
- [38:03]
Rick Davis
Yeah, look, I mean, you know, it's going to be difficult for Democrats to attack a Republican, you know, since they all voted.
- [38:10]
Joe Mattey
Right.
- [38:10]
Rick Davis
I mean, save one that we've described, who isn't about to have a challenge in his district. And so the reality is everyone's going to stand up and said, I did what I thought was the right thing. Right. Regardless of their positions before, no one's going to remember that my name is a yes on the passage of that discharge petition. And, and by the way, that that takes it kind of out of a partisan political environment. Right. I mean, like, I can't imagine a Democrat who's going to want to say he voted yes, I voted yes. And by the way, we're different. You know, if anything, this is why it's so crucial right now that the administration responds in kind, because the entire political system has done something we have not seen done in a long time, and that's through almost complete unanimity supported something that is very, very important to the public trust. And, and now they got to make good on it. And so can this be completely depoliticized? I think so. I'm not sure that the Epstein files are going to be a political issue in the 2026 election unless the Justice Department withholds the information.
- [39:19]
Joe Mattey
Jeannie, the attorney general, Pam Bondi, talked to reporters a little earlier today. We just got these quotes on the terminal. The Justice Department quote, will follow the law. She said the law will be followed while providing maximum transparency and protecting victims. She went on to say, and here's the news. The DOJ quote has new information. New information has come forward is the line. She did not elaborate, encouraging all victims to talk to prosecutors. What do we think this means?
- [39:50]
Jeannie Shan Zaino
Your guess is as good as mine. I mean, to Rick's point, this has been 25 years. It's hard to imagine. But we do know the president ordered her to begin a new investigation. Maybe it's related to that. But I think there are huge political implications here. I don't think this is deep politicized. And one of them is the fact that we saw Donald Trump for the first time in his second term beat by the backbenchers of his own party. Tom Massie, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Marjorie Taylor Greene said this nearly destroyed the MAGA movement and President Trump was forced to retreat 180 degrees and say, okay, vote for it. I know why his voice was not, you know, he had something of a sore throat this week. He was probably screaming his head off at Mar a Lago over the weekend as he lost this. He is losing the fight over redistricting. This shows that the coalition has cracks and Donald Trump is feeling that now he's going to have to put it in Pian Bondi's lap. But note his his comment on truths, social release, whatever is legally releasable. That is a sign that they could try to withhold.
- [40:59]
Joe Mattey
Be interesting if it turned out the oversight committee gave us more insight into Jeffrey Epstein than anything around the discharge petition. Thanks to you both, Rick and Jeannie always here for us. Bloomberg Politics contributors Rick Davis and Jeannie Shan Zaino, thanks for listening to the Balance of Power podcast. Make sure to subscribe if you haven't already at Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And you can find us live every Weekday from Washington D.C. at Noontime Eastern@Bloomberg.com Pro drivers live for race day, but for small business owners, every day is race day. That's why going pro with Lenovo Pro matters. One on one advice IT solutions and customized hardware powered by by Intel Core Ultra processors. Keep your business on the right track. Business goes pro with Lenovo Pro. Sign up for free@lenovo.com Pro Lenovo Lenovo Ah, greetings from my bath festive friends. The holidays are overwhelming, but I'm tackling this season with PayPal and making the most of my money. Getting 5% cash back when I pay in free. 4. No fees, no interest. I used it to get this portable spa with jets. Now the bubbles can cling to my sculpted but pruney body. Make the most of your money this holiday with PayPal. Save the offer in the app ends 1231. See paypal.com promoter points can be redeemed for cash and more. Paying for subject to terms and approval. PayPal Inc. And MLS 910457.