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- [01:08]
C
All right, there you have it. Live from the Oval Office on Bloomberg TV and radio, an extended conversation between President Trump, the Saudi Crown Prince, MBS in the room and scores of reporters who assembled there, including Bloomberg's Anne Marie Hordern, making some news, as you might have just heard on potential interviews and an eventual pick for the next Fed chair, the president pointing to Scott Bess and saying, I wanted this guy, alluding to potentially some more creative names as well. I'm Joe Matthew in Washington alongside Michelle Giam Risco. This is Balance of Power and we're glad you're with us here on the Tuesday edition. Michelle, the president made an enormous amount of news there and we can start with what is important to our audience for real takeaways. The level of investment that the Saudis are making in the US Is what headlined this conversation that veered into any number of political and cultural corners, the president saying, and it was in fact MBS who detailed this, that they're increasing the investment from 600 billion to a trillion trillion. I don't know exactly what all that money is going to go to, but the president was suggesting he didn't know that news was coming.
- [02:11]
D
It is important to frame that too, Joe, because in their meeting earlier this year, there was that commitment of $1 trillion, which was the kind of headline commitment that Trump was going after that eventually came down to 600 billion. That was referenced today. And now Trump is now jawboning that back up to $1 trillion, which MBS did confirm in the meeting.
- [02:32]
C
So there could be a little bit of fuzzy Math here and announcing monies that have already been allocated has, has been a recurring factor for this president on the idea of advanced chips. We're going to talk to Mike Shepard about this in a moment with regard to export licenses. And Michelle, they were talking about actual Blackwell chips from Nvidia, at least in reports leading up to this meeting. They're negotiating that right now. We're working on that. Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State said we may have announcements on that later today. Things got a little chippy with the news reporter Mary Bruce, who we heard from there a couple of times, first asking about the killing of Jamal Khashoggi. The anger that 911 family shared over this and actually generated a response from MBS which was quite remarkable.
- [03:15]
D
Yeah, it was really a remarkable exchange there where the ABC reporter did bring up, as you mentioned, the case that was before everyone in thinking about how to receive MBS today. And of course then there was Drew, this exchange between the two leaders about how Saudi Arabia was actually a great leader in human rights is how Trump framed it and talked about his friend really taking care of business in the right way. So pretty, pretty remarkable given the he.
- [03:44]
C
Was offended by that. And then the follow on question to which he threatened to have ABC's license as he pulls it pulled, talking about the vote today on the Epstein files which is anticipated shortly in the House of Representatives that lasted the better part of about 45 to 50 minutes. Let's bring Mike Shepard back in here. As we mentioned in our Washington bureau, Mike, we just have to step back and acknowledge how remarkable this was. No one thought questions would even be taken by Mohammed bin Salman, never mind this raucous conversation that took place with questions from all corners. We tried to run through a lot of it here, but broadly speaking, this attempt to mainstream or normalize MBS is well underway.
- [04:28]
E
It really is, Joe. And Trump is leaning very heavily on this relationship that he has formed with the Saudi head of government, de facto head of state really in a way. And he is doing so not only with the trappings of the flyover of all the jets that coincided and heralded his arrival at the White House, but also with this appearance in the Oval Office. It's something we've seen him do with so many other foreign leaders, with Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine, Crane, you name it. And then tonight there will be a black tie dinner, not a state dinner with capital S and D jokes, but in all but name. And the President is really trying to roll out the red carpet in so many different ways to signify this relationship he has built with the Saudi leader, the top petroleum exporter in the world. Saudi Arabia is critical to the President's vision for investment, investment and especially manufacturing here in the United States. You heard Mohammed bin Salman talk about his desire to expand and invest here in the US in areas that include artificial intelligence and data centers. And he also talked about it as a two way street. And we are expecting to see perhaps some license approvals for artificial intelligence data centers in Saudi Arabia to be able to gain access to those sophisticated U.S. chips.
- [05:56]
D
Well, it seems like a lot was still pending out of the conversation today. But what are you seeing, Mike? I mean, you, you work in the tech world and there's a lot of shock and awe, as we mentioned today, out of that availability. But did anything kind of change the game in what you heard them discuss around chips and the other technology that Saudi could be getting?
- [06:12]
E
You know, Michelle, it's a great question because we did kind of go through this exercise in May when the President visited Riyadh and he also visited the United Arab Emirates. And we saw a lot of the same pomp and circumstance, but this time for the U.S. leader. And at that time we did hear so much talk about deals. The question will be this time around, how much will be new? During the President's very first trip to Saudi Arabia after taking office in 2017, during his first term, we saw a similar unveiling of so many different agreements, yet a number of them were already in the works or have been forged or announced prior to his taking office. What we'll need to see is how much is building upon what was discussed back in May during his first visit to the Middle east as of his second term in office. And then how much new we will see in terms of Saudi investment in the U.S. like, what are we going to see happening here as well?
- [07:10]
C
You know, when there are big questions about the air spend right now that we discuss a lot, the AI race, to what extent will Middle Eastern nations like Saudi Arabia, the UAE help to pay for our build out here at home?
- [07:21]
E
Well, they'll help to pay for it in a couple of ways, Joe. One is of course, using some of their ample coffers to be able to finance some of this. There's just, you know, so much need for money to continue to do all this expansion of data centers. It's very expensive. All those semiconductors are not cheap, nor is the steel and everything else that has to go into these factories, as Jensen Wong likes to think of them. But they are also going to be an engine, Joe, of how I will be applied in the future. And we know that in the Kingdom they are pushing efforts into autonomous vehicles. This is something that, you know, we've heard the Nvidia CEO talk about and other big AI leaders, including Elon Musk of Tesla. They have talked a lot about this. And you can't do that kind of art, you know, that kind of autonomous driving and other ventures without AI.
- [08:13]
C
Elon's at the big dinner tonight, right?
- [08:15]
E
And he is scheduled to be who's.
- [08:17]
C
Who on the list. Mike Shepard, thank you so much, as always. Always great to have Shep with us on an important day like this. So we're going to keep tabs on what's happening at the White House. They're retiring to a lunch now. And then, of course, the big, as Mike put it, State dinner with a small S will take place in the East Room a bit later on this evening. We carry on here on Balance of Power with the voice of Jane Harmon and our eyes set on geopolitics here. The former Democratic congresswoman from California joins us here, former ranking member, the House Intelligence Committee, author of Insanity Defense, why Our Failure to Confront Hard National Security Problems Makes Us Less Safe. The title of that book plays directly into our conversation, Jane, and it's great to have you with us once again on Bloomberg TV and radio. Should we be giving Saudi Arabia air Chips Blackwells from Nvidia or F35? Because it looks like they're getting both today.
- [09:09]
A
They may be. My head is spinning. Talk about insanity defense. That was a whopper of a press.
- [09:14]
C
Conference would you make of that session? I can't believe it even happened.
- [09:18]
A
Back it up to the horses in front of the of the West Wing. I don't remember ever seeing that. Plus the flyover and the, and the red carpet for someone who is not head of state, but give him credit. I was just in Saudi Arabia with the Munich Security Conference and I saw what what is a changed Riyadh with women driving cars, incubators for startups, and in a climate where most of the population is thrilled about MBS's Vision 2030 vision to change his country. No discussion of human rights and no real discussion of human rights here today either, which I thought was unfortunate. And I thought that the president's gratuitous criticism of Mary Brewster of ABC was way over the top and unjustified. But be that as it may, to answer your question, yeah, I think there will be more money from Saudi Arabia coming here, whether it's a trillion or not. It's kind of a soft number, as I see it. How much will go into data centers, how much of it will go into job building? What I hear is that unfortunately, AI may take away a huge number of jobs, especially of recent college graduates. So that needs to be factored in. But the economic relationship is pretty solid. There was also conversation about everything else, certainly including F35s. And again, that's a little vague, but it does sound like we're sending Saudi Arabia the same planes that we send to Israel, which has never happened before unless Congress intervenes. Congress has tried to block sales in the past, but not been successful. But that sale has been underway. There was no conversation or I didn't hear it. And in all the flow of words about anything about civil nuclear capacity, I thought it was good that that was left off because that's very complicated and I don't think vague promises would work there. But this is now a growing relationship. The other piece that was discussed was whether there will be some Saudi recognition of Israel. And that depends, as the crown prince said, on a pass to two states, he's hanging in for that. And that was US Policy until this administration. And I as an American strongly believe that that is in Israel's security interest to agree to a path to two states. I don't know if Bibi Netanyahu's administration will survive in this form if he does. But certainly if Trump wants to settle wars, get huge numbers on the board, this, this torrent of words was, was in the correct direction.
- [11:57]
D
Well, Congressman, I want to pick up on one item that you mentioned. That is the F35s which we among the laundry list of items that the Saudi ruler has asked for, that seems to be the most sure at this point. How would that change the balance of power in the region, the dynamics out there? If, you know, currently Israel, as you mentioned, is the one that has the F35s. If Saudi gets them, too, what does that, what does that change?
- [12:22]
A
For better and worse, Israel is unhappy about that. It's always had the qualitative edge in military aid. But, you know, this has been a very complicated period since October 7th, and I think Israel's use of some of its material is been criticized certainly by the United States Congress. So I think there may be an appetite to do other defense deals. It means a lot of money to the U.S. trump was very careful. Let me underscore this because I know it's true for Israel, too, to I forget the use of words, but two or three words to say that this is not our most advanced software that F35 contain in the United States. And there is a worry, of course, that Saudi has a deal with, with China, but I'm sure that to get these planes they will have to promise that they won't share the technology. And oh, by the way, I can imagine that China is probably pretty astute in trying to reverse engineer a lot of our material, not just to Saudi Arabia, but, but I'm okay with that deal. I think I'm not okay if we start on a path to sharing or permitting more nuclear developments in the Middle east unless we absolutely know that won't spur an arms race and undo whatever progress Trump claims he's just made with Iran. That would be very unfortunate.
- [13:46]
C
Jane Harmon, we're lucky to have you with us for a couple of reasons. We just have breaking news now coming from Texas and a pretty remarkable headline we didn't expect to see today. And you can put your hat on as a former member of Congress for this one to interrupt with a completely different story. Texas, the Texas redistricting map has been thrown out by a judge. Texas cannot use this new redrawn map drawn by Republicans in hopes of generating, what, another five additional Republican House seats. This is from a panel of three judges just ruling today a massive blow to President Trump's efforts to redraw the congressional map. And it, of course, follows Prop 50 passing in California. That, you know a thing or two about, Jane Harmon, is are we going to find that Gavin Newsom actually has the upper hand at the end of this event, or are all these maps being redrawn off schedule going to be a problem now?
- [14:41]
A
Who knows? This redistricting arms race is very troubling to someone like me who was strongly for the commissions in California. But hey, you know, if Texas is doing it, California is going to do it. This was a lower court decision, I'm sure, Joe. So it's going to be challenged. And let's see what happens as it goes up the ladder. And the California plan will also be challenged. I don't know where this ends up. I mean, some of the speculation is quite amusing that, that the people, people expected to win these seats may not win them. I just think it's a tragedy to the voters of the United States that the decade, the observance that is set up by the Constitution, that we redo the population statistics every decade is not going to be respected. But I do understand why California did what it did in response to Texas. So let's see. I mean, this is one of the more exciting news days ever. What else is going to happen in an hour?
- [15:37]
C
That's true. My God.
- [15:40]
D
Certainly a lot to unpack here. Well, as that Texas ruling has come down, we certainly are also watching Indiana. Congresswoman, I wonder your thoughts on where things go from there. Of course, the president has been applying a lot of pressure on his fellow Republicans in the state.
- [15:55]
A
Well, I think it doesn't end there. I think a lot of other states are going to try to get into the game. Sadly, I think the game is sad. That is really my point. I think the decision of voters should not be interfered with. But be that as it may, I'm certainly not going to watch or sit by as some in this administration try to prejudice the fair votes of Americans in the next cycle. I don't think that's right. So let's see. Let's see what the courts decide. As someone who cared intensely about the Voting Rights act back in the day, I thought it was wonderful that we were enfranchising all voters. Now to see us disenfranchising voters is a really sorry chapter in the American Democratic story. And one more point on human rights because I think human rights were really not discussed in this press conference. I would say MBS has a way still to justify what happened a few years ago with the journalist Khashoggi. He didn't really face it in the questions today. And I would also say that our U.S. case for, you know, moral authority is a bit tarnished lately too by some actions of this administration and in both of those make me sad because democracy needs, needs to be robust in this world. It's the latter for the people of this world who deserve respect and opportunity.
- [17:27]
C
Jane, it's great to have you. Thank you so much for weighing in.
- [17:29]
B
Thank you.
- [17:30]
C
On all of these stories. That's of course, Jane Harmon, the former congresswoman from California, former ranking member of the House Intel Committee. Stay with us on balance of power. We'll have much more more coming up after this.
- [17:43]
B
Support for the show comes from public.com. you're thoughtful about where your money goes. You've got your core holdings, some recurring crypto buys, maybe even a few strategic option plays on the side. The point is you're engaged with your investments and Public gets that. That's why they built an investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can put together a multi asset portfolio for the long haul. Stocks, bonds, options, crypto, it's all there, plus an industry leading 3.6% APY high yield cash account. Switch to the platform built for those who take investing seriously. Go to public.com market and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com market paid for by Public Investing. All investing involves the risk of loss, including loss of principal. Brokerage services for U.S. listed registered securities options and bonds in a self directed account are offered by Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC crypto trading provided by Zero Hash. Complete disclosures available@public.com disclosures.
- [18:44]
A
You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at noon and 5pm Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts or watch us live on YouTube.
- [19:00]
C
We want to assemble our panel. We're going to stay live here as we go into overtime with now a third story that we're watching. We've got the MBS visit at the White House that generated one of the most remarkable news conferences we've probably ever seen, or at least briefing with reporters in the Oval Office. We've got a vote today, an imminent vote here on releasing the Jeffrey Epstein files in the House and now dropped in our lap just about five minutes ago, news that the Texas redistricting map is being thrown out by a lower court. And I can only assume this is going to the Supreme Court. Let's bring in our panel. Lester Munson is with us today, Republican strategist and head of the international practice at BGR Group. And of course, Jeannie Shan Zaino is here, Bloomberg Politics contributor, Democratic analyst and Democracy visiting fellow at Harvard Kennedy School's Ashe Center. Jeanne, I am not sure where to begin here, so I guess we'll go with the most recent. What does this mean about a national rewriting of congressional maps if it cannot happen in Texas?
- [19:59]
F
Yeah, I mean, this is not surprising development. I'm sure that it will be appealed to, your point, right up to the Supreme Court. But this was always the risk of this strategy. And you know, just sitting here with you watching this amazing White House press avail, so much of what the president was trying to do in there was focused on domestic violence policy. He knows he's in trouble. Republicans are in trouble in the midterm. And of course one way to avoid that was to redistrict in Texas and pick up these five seats. And so this is a huge blow to Republicans, but of course it may be matched by big blows to Democrats. So we really are still in the same situation. This is a very precarious way to try to move forward politically for any party. You are better off appealing to voters by focusing on what they care about than trying to redraw maps. It's a risky strategy.
- [20:57]
D
Well, Lester, I want to pick up on that. You know, amid all that's happened today, as Joe said, it's hard to know where to start. But just starting off on, you know, what Jeannie's talking about here and what the congresswoman address, how dangerous is it for Trump to keep pushing this line on redistricting? To the extent that, you know, it does become this battle back and forth, forth between the parties. I mean, dangerous for arguably both parties. So how do you see it?
- [21:21]
C
Look, I think the reality is this was already dangerous. We were already in a situation where states were so gerrymandered that the number of seats held by certain parties didn't come close to their actual vote. I'm from Illinois originally. I think there's 17 congressional districts. Three are held by Republicans, less than than 20%, and yet Republicans regularly get 40 or 45% of the statewide vote. So. So this is already going on. Yes. Trump turns the volume up to 11 to quote spinal taps on a lot of these issues. It's kind of what he does, but he's, he's not inventing the issue. This fight was already going on, and maybe it's a good thing that it's kind of elevated and maybe we can get some sort of national resolution of this and a way forward that's more sensible because these redistricting points, plans are bananas on both sides. Wow. How about. Well, he may have just turned it up to 12, Lester, on truth Social. Just now as we're talking, Jeannie, President Trump writes, I am working with Governor Mike Braun and other Indiana Republicans. Michelle just mentioned Indiana on picking up two Republican congressional seats. The governor, a good man, must produce on this, he says, or he will be the only governor, Republican or Democrat, who didn't, which is clearly not true. I won Indiana, he says, in a landslide. The most votes ever gotten in the state. Such an honor. A RINO State senator Roderick Bray, who doesn't care about keeping the majority in the house in D.C. is the primary problem. Soon, Donald Trump writes, he will have a primary problem, as will any other politician who supports him in this stupidity. Thank you for your attention to this matter. He's not done with the pressure play here, Jeannie, is he?
- [22:56]
F
He is not. And this has been one of the startling things about the last couple weeks. We have seen again and again and again. For the first time in this second administration, Republicans saying they are not going to abide by the President's wishes. He is pushing back hard on that. But we are seeing it repeatedly. I mean, this vote that's going on in Congress today, we may get a unanimous vote to release those files against the President's initial wishes. What we've seen on redistricting over and over again, we are seeing Republicans say, not in my state. So the President has a problem on this side and he is starting to see the reality of living in a divided, separated system. You don't get everything you want. And this is not a comfortable place for the President to be. And I think we saw a little bit of the wrath and the anger he feels when he was responding to Mary Bruce from abc. He does not like to be in the system of democracy that we have in this country, where he is forced, like all other politicians, to answer questions and to have to compromise and not always get his way.
- [24:01]
D
Well, Jeannie, speaking of uncomfortable positions, and we've talked about this certainly all week and all month and all year, arguably. But today we get the big Epstein vote in the House. What are you watching for in terms of reaction from the White House taking things politically from here?
- [24:18]
F
Yeah, I think we saw in that press conference how frustrated the President is to even be asked about this and how he wants to to turn it on the Democrats. I think what we're watching for is what happens really first in the Senate. I think we will get a vote there and the President has said he will sign it. But I'm most focused on what happens in the doj. I agree with Tom Massie that it is likely a smokescreen, this investigation under which they are going to say we will can only release some of these files and we are going to be right back to square one, which is, I think, a problem for the President because this is not going away.
- [24:54]
C
Got about a minute left, Lester. The votes today. Maybe the President makes an order. He could have those files released if he wanted to. Will we ever see them? Well, we're getting little parts of them. We're getting day by day. Right. Like. Well, we see something incriminating that we kind of want to be waiting for. Don't we want the story to last for a long time? I mean, this is the best clickbait out there. It's been on the front page for months. Well, that's true. I don't know how it's going to end, and I don't pretend to. The administration could release the files if they wanted to they don't need the congressional vote. Right. So it's, it's, there's a lot of Kabuki theater going on here. Kabuki theater with none other than Lester Munson. Thank you sir. And Jeannie Shan Zaino, our great panel today. Bloomberg Politics contributor Jeannie, thank you. Of course, we'll have much more straight ahead here On Balance of Power. In fact, we're going to spend some time with former Republican Congressman Denver Riggleman, who now runs an AI company, speaking to what's happening at the White House and knows a thing or two about the House of Representatives. We'll have that straight ahead here on Balance of Power only on Bloomberg TV and radio.
- [25:55]
B
Support for the show comes from public.com you're thoughtful about where your money goes. You've got your core holdings, some recurring crypto buys, maybe even a few strategic option plays on the side. The point is you're engaged with your investments and Public gets that. That's why they built an investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can put together a multi asset portfolio for the long haul. Stocks, bonds, options, crypto, it's all there. Plus an industry leading 3.6% APY high yield cash account. Switch to the platform built for those who take investing seriously. Go to public.com market and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com market paid for by Public Investing. All investing involves the risk of loss, including loss of principal. Brokerage services for U.S. listed registered securities options and bonds in a self directed directed account are offered by Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC. Crypto trading provided by ZeroHash. Complete disclosures available@public.com disclosures.
- [26:55]
A
You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at noon and 5pm Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. Just say Alexa play Bloomberg 1130.
- [27:14]
C
You're on Bloomberg TV and radio alongside Michelle Giam Briscoe. I'm Joe Matthew having survived the near hour long news conference, if we can call it that, a briefing with reporters in the Oval Office. And what is a big day here in Washington. Mbs the Saudi crown prince visiting with Donald Trump. And they're going to have a state dinner following their meetings and lunch together. But we need a bit of a status check here because it's been an inch incredibly busy day. We are also anticipating a short time from now a vote in the House of Representatives on a discharge petition that would force the disclosure of the Jeffrey Epstein files. Knowing now that President Trump is backing that effort, telling Republicans to vote for it, some suggest we could see a unanimous result. And a short time ago this hour, we learned that federal judges have blocked Texas's redistricting map, that which prompted the Prop 50 in California and a national effort to redraw maps in time for the midterm elections. That story just emerging now and what has become a doozy of a day in political news, Michelle, we think about the proper voice at a time like this. Someone with military and national security experience has dabbled in the AI field, in fact has his own AI company now, somebody who served as a Republican in the House of Representatives at the time that all this stuff with Epstein was happening. I think his name is Denver.
- [28:38]
D
I think he's a perfect guest to have on today. Certainly, Joe, I mean, how's your heart rate? This is quite a day, a doozy of a day, as you say in political news, and certainly a lot to still unpack from the MBS visit, which is ongoing, as you say, and through tomorrow, we could be getting news about what these deals actually might mean.
- [28:56]
C
Indeed. And so the Denver I refer to, of course, is the former Republican Congressman Denver Riggleman, who is with us from Virginia, as always, Denver, it's great to see you. Thank you so much for joining us. We could talk about all of these stories or just one of them. I'm going to, I'm going to get in with you here on AI because you know what it's like to actually purchase and operate a Blackwell chip. And it looks like the Saudis are going to be the next ones on the list here. With all the talk of national security concerns and export controls with China, is Saudi Arabia the right country to be next on the list?
- [29:32]
B
No, I think. You know what's amazing to me right now, Joe, and all the things that you see right now in the House of Representatives with the chip Roy is talking about, you know, bringing up the Muslim Brotherhood conspiracy theories again and Sharia law conspiracy theories and sort of the ridiculousness and pushing this, hate this Islamophobia. I find it amazing you're not going to get a whole lot of statements about what you're saying in the news that I just heard the update in the news, by the way, for both of you. My heart rate went up specifically with Paramount. I could tell you why sometime if you ever ask me about that. You know, I'm like, oh, my goodness, there's so much there. But I think what you're looking at with Saudi, I think people in the country, you know, the grownups realize that you have to have certain relationships globally, but I think those global relationships have to be mature. And I think when you're talking about Blackwell chips, you're talking about AI, you're talking about technology transfer. My question is what other technology transfer to Saudi Arabia have. For instance, how would they just receive surface to air missile systems from Russia? And when you're Talking about real DoD decision makers, real adults in the room, which I think there's a lack of in this administration, I think what you have to consider is regardless of the relationships you have to have for certain strategic goals or objectives, you have to look at the government itself, but you also have to look at what happens with something called fme, foreign material exploitation. And the fact is, if we're providing chips or F35s, we're providing technology, advanced technologies. And the Russians are there also with their technologies, they can exploit what we have without us having insight into that. And I just wonder if anybody's looking at any of this in any way that doesn't actually have decisions just based on what Donald Trump wants, whether it's for his own business interest or whatnot. So I think that's the thing that gets people who've been in the actual defense business, who've been in Congress, who've had to make serious decisions that even with the press conference, again, the news, the updates, it's unbelievable. Even with the press conference, our administration seems so decidedly unserious about what could happen to our American war fighters and to our citizens citizens if they're not making decisions based on real intelligence analysis and really real foreign policy expertise.
- [31:40]
D
Well, Congressman, there was, as we know, a pretty long wish list from the Saudis for today. And they did get, at least we know, the F35 package they wanted. They're also in talks around the chips, as we mentioned, civil nuclear energy, that sort of thing. It does seem a lot was asked for and a lot was granted. Whereas on the US side, it's a little on unclear. Beyond that $600 billion, that's supposed to become $1 trillion. What is the US side getting? Can you kind of unpack, you know, from either side, did somebody win this negotiation, and if so, what is the loss on the other side of the ledger?
- [32:15]
B
I don't think the American people won this at all. I think Saudi won. But I think if you see the people that won, you wonder what the cascading business Effects are for the Trump family and those around them. I think that's the first thing you would look at as an analyst. What is the win? Is it lower oil prices? You know, what does that do, you know, sort of economically for the larger oil and processing companies in our, in our country? I think, I think that's what you look at. Michelle, your question on the F35 is one that bothers me. You know, as a United States Air Force intelligence officer, I, my expertise were fighter jets. I was trained on intelligence on F15s and F16s and then the supersonic bomber, the B1, and that's after 9 11. I deployed 10 days after 9 11. So this is a subject that does get to me is that, for instance, if the Russians had signed a deal in 21 or 22 to deliver Pantsirs, which the NATO designator is the SA22, it's a surface air missile system, does multi layer defense with missiles and guns. People can look it up, you can Google it right now, just google the SA22 Greyhound. But those are unclassified things that you're seeing, even though weaknesses. And my big fear, Michelle, is that if we're, if we're providing F35s, are they, are they utilizing F35s in practice runs against the Pantsir or the SA22? And what are the Russians learning about our weapons systems? Also, we don't know what the technology transfer looks like in the Middle east specifically. Right. We don't know if those Blackwell chips are going to find their way into other hands, which was something we worried about with China and other Middle Eastern countries. And again, I just feel like we're just not, we're not looking at this in a way that benefits the American people. It's a specific portion of those at the top of the government that look like they're trade dealing outside of what's good for America. And again, I wonder what the Republican side of Congress is going to do after they're screaming about Sharia law or about, you know, the, the sort of Muslims, you know, creeping into our country's infrastructure. You know, this scary thing, right, Joe and Michelle. So I think again, we have to be very, very careful when you don't have real decisions from professionals and you're doing this for personal gain or for other gains. We can't see what does that do to our war fighters in the future and what does it do to our geopolitical standing in the future?
- [34:23]
C
Also, that is a scary scenario that you outline, Denver, and we need to pull you into some deep waters with regard to what's happening in the House today. I'd love to know what you're hearing from your former colleagues, if you believe as well that this discharge petition to release the Epstein files will receive a unanimous vote and if you're also part of the chattering class now in Washington who says it won't matter because the DOJ has an ongoing investigation into the likes of Bill Clinton and other Democrats that will make it impossible for them to release any Epstein files. How are you looking at this?
- [35:02]
B
You know, the best way to, for a squid to escape is to squirt a lot of ink, right. Joe and Michelle. And I think, you know, so I think what you're saying is a massive amount of ink squirting going on in Congress right now. And for me, you know, when you're talking about redactions, when you're talking about what kind of executive privilege he's going to invoke, when you're talking about the legal challenges, when you're talking about what this vote signifies, it's pretty interesting that They've had about 10 months to get their act together after they said they were going to release the Epstein files on day one. You guys remember the phase one binders, right? And the giddy influencers coming out with obviously empty binders at this point. You know, I mean, it's mind boggling that the sane or the rational would think that's anything but performative theater that you're saying. And, and I do believe right now that I don't think we're ever going to see all the Epstein files as long as Trump is, you know, in place. I think anything that you see, you know, the far right is going to say no big deal and the centers in the far left going to say, my Lord, what are we just seeing here? I think, I think we just have a bunch of ink squirting going on right now.
- [36:05]
D
Well, Congressman, you wouldn't know it from today's events and how they've been pitched by the White House and the focus on the Saudi deal here, but you know, the White House has been trying to get back to affordability as a message. So it made affordability with we've got MBS this week, we've got Venezuela cookin hot, which we've forgotten about almost this morning. All of these issues. You've been to Ukraine many times. I wonder if you fear that that issue will kind of fall by the wayside, that we're not having our eye on the ball in terms of what do we do next here, certainly on President Trump's mind as the last war that he wants to solve, as he often says, and he's losing patience. But where do things go from here on the Ukraine front?
- [36:46]
B
Oh, goodness, that's a great question. My gosh. But that is a great question. You know, as you know, I was just in Ukraine recently. Incredible memory. And I'm about to go back right in the next few months. And I was just talking about Ukraine today. I think Ukraine does sort of fall by the wayside. I think I find it interesting that the Trump team stole, stole affordability. The word from the Spamberger campaign, who actually has a real plan here in Virginia, and all of a sudden they're grabbing onto her messaging that was successful. That's what I'm seeing right now when you're looking at the national landscape. But as far as Ukraine's concerned, Michelle, I'm very, very worried. I, you know, I know it took him a long time to take Pokrovsk, you know, the Russians going in there and obviously I get updates. I know a lot of people there. But I do think there's going to come a time, even with the advances in drone warfare, where Ukraine's going to have, you know, maybe some attrition problems. And I think, can they last through this administration? I hope they can. But I think at some point the United States has to make that decision to arm them in a very, very huge way. And again, it goes back to the fact I don't know if we're providing again, F35s, Michelle and Joe, to Saudi. And we're not worried about Russian equipment there. Are we not worried about Russian intervention or Russian incursions at all into neighboring countries? I mean, at what point, point after 10 months do we say, well, maybe the Trump administration just isn't that interested in what's going on in Ukraine based on whatever conspiracy theories or whatever foreign policy doctrine they've come up with.
- [38:14]
C
Would Tomahawks make the difference? Denver, we talked about that up and down until the president decided it wasn't time to send those cruise missiles to Ukraine. And what if we did give them F35s, would be able to train Ukrainian pilots to make a difference, Be rough.
- [38:29]
B
I mean, training F35 pilots quickly would be very rough. I mean, there's some of the best pilots in the world. But, but I will tell you this. I mean, if there is a way, right, where we could use allied F35s, that would be fantastic. Listen, Tomahawks would give the Russians a pucker, a maximum pucker factor. I mean that, that is just the truth. We, we are so much, we are so much, well, more armed, just more technological than the Russians. They've shown themselves not to be effective in a large landmass war against Ukraine. Now you got to give Ukraine credit. They're one of the most savvy opponents I think the Russians could imagine based on the fact that they can change their tactics, techniques and procedures on a dime. They have brilliant engineers over there, especially in drone warfare. But yeah, I think we're at a point right now that those type of arms like Tomahawks, I think it would give the Russians pause because they really, really didn't. They wouldn't have much they could do against them. When you're talking about anything like that, we talk about cruise missiles or you can talk about Tomahawks. The Russians would not be happy about that. And again, I think we should have probably done that sooner rather than later.
- [39:33]
C
Really interesting. Denver, it's great to have you back. You mentioned, by the way, Abigail Spanberger, I know that you're working on the transition team. I believe that's public now for the soon it is to be installed Virginia governor. Come back and talk to us about what you're doing. I'd love to hear how that works for a former Republican congressman to be helping to stage the next Democratic governor of Virginia. We miss you. Come see us in Washington soon. Denver Riggled in former Republican Congressman. Thanks for listening to the Balance of Power podcast. Make sure to subscribe if you haven't already at Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And you can find us live every weekday from Washington D.C. at noontime Eastern at Bloomberg.
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