Jordan West Ignites the Social Commerce Club on TikTok

Summary

Bald Ambition Podcast — Episode Summary

Episode Title:
Jordan West Ignites the Social Commerce Club on TikTok

Host:
Mookie Spitz

Guest:
Jordan West, Founder of Social Commerce Club

Release Date:
May 23, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This energetic episode of Bald Ambition features Jordan West, an e-commerce entrepreneur and expert on TikTok’s burgeoning social commerce phenomenon. The heart of the conversation centers on the dramatic industry shift from traditional “influencer marketing” to a new paradigm powered by everyday creators, the unique opportunity of TikTok Shop, and how brands can thrive by embracing this decentralized, creator-first model. Through humor and plenty of actionable insights, Jordan and Mookie unpack what’s working now, what’s broken in big-brand marketing, and practical tactics for both brands and creators navigating the TikTok era.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. From "Influencers" to "Creators" (01:40–06:00)

• Jordan's Frustration With Traditional Influencer Marketing:
  • Brand-influencer collaborations were often adversarial and difficult to scale.
  • “It was really hard to create a win-win...it’s really hard where it’s like, what kind of value are you going to get versus me selling my soul to you to talk to my audience.” — Jordan (03:00)
• Shift to Creators & Word-of-Mouth at Scale:
  • TikTok Shop enables ordinary creators—not just large influencers—to effectively drive sales.
  • The process is less about follower count, more about content skill and product storytelling.
  • “It’s the first time that we found a win-win between creators...and brands.” — Jordan (02:30)
  • This shift democratizes selling and gives both sides incentives to succeed.

2. The TikTok Shop Revolution (05:04–09:00)

• "Word of Mouth at Scale":
  • The real power comes from enthusiastic “product love” and authenticity, not scripted promotions.
  • Brands now “sell” to creators, who in turn sell to their audiences.
  • “Your job is not to sell a product to the end consumer. Your job is to sell a product to the creator. And if the creator buys in, then you get them.” — Jordan (05:40)
• Pareto Principle in the Creator Economy:
  • Out of 3.7 million signed-up TikTok Shop creators, only a tiny percentage are truly impactful sellers.
  • Both brands and creators must learn new muscles for this ecosystem.

3. Who Are the Best Sellers? (09:29–11:25)

• Top-Performing Demographic:
  • Contrary to conventional wisdom, millennial moms are TikTok Shop’s powerhouse sellers, not Gen Z.
  • “Gen Zs suck. No, it is Millennial Moms... They know how to sell.” — Jordan (09:31)
  • They have purchasing power, digital fluency, and experience building online audiences.

4. The Brand Paradigm Shift (12:16–18:29)

• Brands Need to Cede Control:

  • “You cannot control your narrative anymore, right? The narrative is in the hands of the people.” — Jordan (12:29)
  • Large brands like Nike and Lululemon are too slow, losing ground to agile, creator-savvy upstarts.
  • Example: Liquid Death’s irreverent, viral strategy as an anti-case study in not over-policing brand message.

• Social Commerce Club’s Role:

  • Helps brands understand, execute, and scale on TikTok Shop.
  • Sifts through the creator pool to find high-performers and matches them with brands.
  • Supports culture shift away from legacy “marketplace” mindsets to embrace new brand channels.
  • “We help brands understand how to execute...and actually scale on the channel.” — Jordan (17:05)

5. Authenticity, Incentives, & the Invisible Hand (19:40–26:42)

• Alignment of Incentives:

  • Creators are only paid when sales happen—no more flat fees regardless of outcome.
  • Creator commissions can be clawed back if products are returned or oversold—a "microcosm of capitalism."
  • “It creates a win-win between the creator, between the brand. It is the invisible hand at work constantly.” — Jordan (26:24)

• Content, Not Audience, Drives Reach:

  • TikTok’s algorithm surfaces content on merit, not follower numbers (contrasted with Instagram/YouTube).
  • Top TikTok creator videos repurposed on Meta outperform native brand content.

6. The Importance of Product-Creator Fit (28:00–30:10)

• Success on TikTok Shop Relies on Picking the Right Products:

  • Example: Ninja Creamy blew up because creators loved it, not because the brand forced promotion.
  • Brands are advised to release or adapt products specifically for TikTok creators.

• Paradigm Shifts Trump Tactics:

  • Brands need to make organizational mindset changes.
  • “It’s actually not a tactical issue right now. It’s a paradigm shift.” — Jordan (30:26)

7. Social Commerce as R&D Feedback Loop (32:29–35:08)

• Brands Can Use TikTok Shop for Instant, Scalable Market Feedback:

  • “I have a whole chapter...talking about how you can cut your entire research and development budget because you have creators telling you what to do.” — Jordan (33:04)

• Economic and Social Impact:

  • Social commerce has created thousands of flexible jobs (especially for moms and creators at home).
  • The economic ramifications of TikTok’s continued presence in the U.S. are significant.

8. What’s New in the TikTok Ecosystem? (35:08–38:18)

• New Opportunities:

  • TikTok Shop is now opening to digital products and travel.
  • No perceptible change in creator experience or platform operation after TikTok’s change in ownership.

• “Halo Effect” & Measurement:

  • Success on TikTok Shop boosts sales across retailers and e-commerce sites ("omnichannel" impact).
  • Social Commerce Club’s “Halo” tool quantifies this effect for clients.

9. Paid vs. Organic Content, Economics for Creators (39:24–43:40)

• How Are Creators Paid?
  • Brands pay creators a commission for organic and paid/boosted videos (rates differ).
  • Transparency is emphasized in explaining commissions to non-business-savvy creators.
  • Idea discussed: Allowing creators themselves to pay to boost their own videos, empowering ownership.

10. The Future and Closing Wisdom (45:00–50:59)

• Survival Requires “Building the Muscle” Now:
  • Brands that don’t adapt risk irrelevance; Instagram and YouTube’s algorithmic lag is called out.
  • “The brands that don’t get it now and don’t build the muscle now are dead. They’re dead.” — Jordan (45:40)
• What Should Brands Do?
  • Reevaluate marketing ROI: Traditional ad costs are skyrocketing, legacy tactics futile with new digital natives.
  • Listen to creators—they know what sells and have the feedback loop brands need.
  • Embrace the “social commerce” paradigm and use it as an R&D, reach, and sales channel.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Paradigm Shift:

  • “You cannot control your narrative anymore... The narrative is in the hands of the people.” — Jordan (12:29)

• Why Millennial Moms Dominate:

  • “Gen Zs suck. No, it is Millennial Moms... They know how to sell.” — Jordan (09:29)

• Why Social Commerce Is Different:

  • “It is a brand new brand channel. It’s even beyond a demand generation channel. It’s a brand channel.” — Jordan (16:41)

• On the Algorithm:

  • “In the world of AI... your content is. It should know who you are and it should match you with an audience. What’s so hard about it?” — Mookie (24:39)

• On Creators’ Economic Impact:

  • “The amount of these millennial moms that don’t have to go into offices and can work from home with their kids. That’s cool. That’s super cool.” — Jordan (34:36)

• On the Future of Brand Consulting:

  • “One of the big things that I want to launch... is the McKinsey of social commerce change.” — Jordan (49:59)

---

Timestamps for Major Segments

• 01:40: Jordan describes the influencer-to-creator shift and TikTok Shop’s emergence.
• 05:04: Explaining “word of mouth at scale” and the role of creators vs. influencers.
• 09:29: Revealing millennial moms as TikTok Shop’s best performing creators.
• 12:16: Brands’ loss of narrative control and the problem with legacy PR/brand marketing.
• 16:36–18:29: How Social Commerce Club operates and why brands are behind the curve.
• 19:40–26:42: The economics of TikTok Shop: win-wins, content meritocracy, and the invisible hand.
• 28:00–30:10: Product fit and advice for brands entering social commerce.
• 32:29–35:08: Using creators’ feedback as a zero-cost R&D tool.
• 35:08–38:18: New TikTok Shop categories, “halo effect,” and quantifying cross-channel impact.
• 39:24–43:40: Dynamic between paid and organic, creator commissions, and ideas for empowering creators to boost their own content.
• 45:00–50:59: Closing strategies for brands, the case for urgent paradigm shifts, and summary of actionable takeaways.

---

Conclusion: The New Era — “Word of Mouth at Scale”

Jordan's closing rebrand:

• “This is social commerce. This is word of mouth at scale.” (50:59)

Jordan and Mookie agree: the age of top-down marketing and monolithic brand control is ending. To thrive, brands must integrate with the creator economy, cede control, empower authentic voices, and shift their thinking. TikTok Shop, and social commerce at large, isn’t just a new channel—it’s a paradigm shift.

---

For more from Jordan West, Social Commerce Club, and future discussions on the changing landscape of branding and creator-powered commerce, subscribe to Bald Ambition!

Transcript

[A]

Hello and welcome back to Bald Ambition. I'm still bald, but the one with ambition today is Mr. Jordan West. He's the founder of the Social Commerce Club. And I can't wait to talk to you about TikTok and its evolution, especially for influencer marketing. Welcome aboard, Jordan.

[B]

Thank you so much for having me. Really looking forward to this. I, I am, yes. I'm the one with ambition today and still some hair as of now. I'll tell you.

[A]

I know I'm often reminded of this, this delta and you got a nice bouffant there. If you're on video you can see Jordan's ploof and if you're on audio, you can use your imagination. I'm obviously operating from a pretty, pretty basic baseline. So you know, Jordan, Jordan's stepping up in terms of the follicular count and, and you're also stepping up in terms of empowering influencers on TikTok. Now, a little bit of background. I'm on TikTok too. I'm a micro influencer. I've got about 17,000, 17,500 followers.

[B]

Awesome.

[A]

And maybe about 300,000 likes. So I'm, you know, just hovering. Yeah, I'm, I'm poking the ecosystem and I've noticed changes in social media. I've noticed changes in the evolution of influencers and their relation to brands and stories, storytelling. And of course TikTok's going through its own changes with new ownership as well. Can you give us some context and show us what value you provide the, the TikTok universe, the tick, the tick toca sphere.

[B]

So interesting that you talk about influencers. Right. And I think that that's the world that a lot of us have grown up in over the last probably 15 years of maybe not even quite that long with Instagram and then Instagram morphing into, into TikTok.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And, and a bunch of the, you know, sort of young people going over to TikTok and spending so much time there. And TikTok's algorithm being absolutely crazy, it's created this whole influencer ecosystem. I'm actually not here to talk about influencers today. What I'm here to talk about is creators, right? And this really big shift from influencer marketing from top down marketing, brand marketing, into word of mouth at scale. And that's really what happened with TikTok shop. I got interested in TikTok shop about two years ago. I owned a bunch of brands. I've owned eight different brands over time, mostly all on apparel and we sold our last brand and then we had one of our brands go bankrupt and I had no more brands left and I had the small agency on the side and I was like, you know what, this is a really interesting opportunity. I saw TikTok shop come around and what, what I realized is that it was the first time that we found a win win between creators or, or what, what we were calling at the time, influencers and brands. Before that. I hated working with influencers. The reason I hated working with them is. And just so, so everyone knows, like I also, you know, in the business world do the influencer thing. I've got about 30, 000 followers on, on LinkedIn. So I get bright like I get deals from software companies all the time. And I will tell you, it's really hard to create a win win, right? It's really hard where it's like, what kind of value are you going to get versus me selling my soul to you to talk to my audience, right? And so suddenly TikTok shop came around and it was the perfect marriage between these creators. The algorithm, right, the algorithm that was not follower based. So it didn't really matter whether you had influence over anyone or not. It just mattered whether you knew how to go viral or not and talk about products. And suddenly there was like this marriage between brands and products, sorry, creators and brands and they actually somehow created a win win, which I'm just all about figuring that part out because that's how you create scale, right? At one point if someone's trying to screw the other person, you can't really create scale, right? You're going to have a business relationship that's going to. I'm sure people have had that out there before where it's like, okay, well I got screwed by this person, I'm never going to work with them again. And that was happening with influencers all the time. It was always, always relette. So I'll pause there for a second because I could just keep talking this whole time.

[A]

So that's a great contextual setup. Because I'm older school, I've done marketing for big brands too. And this idea of the influencer has been pivotal. And the shift to creator is great because it's about intentionality. If you're a creator, you're out there pumping content, you've got a point of view, you've got your own style and you're not overtly trying to change behaviors or ostensibly manipulate. You're just sharing. And it sounds to me like you're tapping into this natural energy and zeitgeist of folks who are sharing whatever talent, whatever point of view they have and then contextualizing it within the shop. Is that right, Toad?

[B]

And so what I like to call it is word of mouth at scale, right? It was like the first time, I remember this when we own brands, where it was like, how do we manufacture word of mouth? And like, the best way just everyone knows to manufacture word of mouth is to have a good product, right? Like, look at the Teslas and the apples of the world, right? Like, who just have great products that you're like, well, I want to, like, for the longest time, Apple never paid for any product placement because people wanted to have the Apple logo in their movies or in whatever they were doing to show that they were cool, right? So product is the number one way to get word of mouth at scale, right? This is to me, the way to then actually systematize that, right? And it's starting with TikTok Shop, but it's not stopping right there. Like the, the agency that I, that I founded, it's called social Commerce Club, not TikTok Shop Club, right? Because social commerce is what we call this new world where creators are doing the marketing for you. Like, we, we talk to brands all the time. We're like, your job is not to sell a product to the end consumer. Your job is to sell a product to the creator. And if the creator buys in, then you get them. I, I joke. I'm like, it's kind of like the MLM of 2026. Like, like your whole job is to create this pyramid, right, of people selling to people, to getting them on board. Like, that's the whole thing. So, like, if you're a potential cult leader, this is like, this is exactly what you want to do.

[A]

So how does it, how does it happen? When I cracked like 10,000 followers, then I got a bunch of messages and invites and I've seen TikTok shop and then I get invites from brands often I don't even know what to do with them. And I haven't really integrated that relationship into my content. So where do you step in? How do you help? Who do you help? And what kind of value do you provide within, not the influencer ecosystem, but this new creator reality of word of mouth and brand identification.

[B]

So on TikTok Shop, there are 3.7 million creators that are signed up through, through TikTok Shop, right? I'm sure that at some point you got an email and it was like, hey, I'm going to become a TikTok shop creator. Like you're eligible to become a creator. And so the problem is there's out of these 3.7 million creators, it is the Pareto principle, the 8020 of the 8020 of the 8020of the ones that can actually sell and have figured it out now. I think that it's going to get better and better. I think that as education comes around, there's some stuff that we're into.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I'm at the top end of that funnel. 80, 20, 80 20. I think I got only a few layers in.

[B]

You're at like 79. 70.

[A]

Yeah, 79.5. And I'm like, what am I supposed to do?

[B]

Well, because it's a new muscle for both brands and creators. Right. That's the problem is that we've never really had this before, but.

[A]

And no support. I mean, you got the app, it's sitting there looking at you and you start tapping and then totally.

[B]

So that's on the, on the creator side, right? So for us, we're really obsessed with how do brands actually find these creators that actually know how to sell? Like, how do they create essentially a sales team for them on. On TikTok shop? And that's what, what we're really obsessed with is like, how do we find these creators that are doing really great work. Our next thing that, that I personally will be obsessed with is how, how do I then train creators to be better creators, right. And actually talk about products. For me, it's funny, like, you know, coming from owning all these brands and agencies and all this sort of stuff, I have really, at the end of the day, I am just a salesperson. Like, I love selling product, but only stuff that I really believe in. Like even when, when, you know, when brands or software companies will come to me, I always try the product out and I'm like, do I actually like this? I'll just talk about products that I love. And that's what these creators are incredibly good at. They see a product and they're like, oh, I know exact how to fit this in. So, interestingly, this is a great sound bite for you. Interestingly, the best creators on the platform, can you guess who they are? Can you guess demographics wise, what they, what do they look like? Who are they?

[A]

Gen Z Female.

[B]

No, no, Gen Zs suck. There's another sound bite for you. Gen Z suck. No, it is Millennial Moms, because that's

[A]

actually the other extreme. Right?

[B]

Yeah. So who knows who is the one that's talking about the most amount of products Number one has the most purchasing power, is buying the most amount of things, needs to constantly be looking for different things for their family. It's the millennial moms. They know how to sell. Plus they've had enough time online, right? They've probably had the most amount of time online of anyone because they were early adopters of Instagram and Facebook. Probably. First Facebook, then Instagram. I am married to a beautiful millennial mom, digital native. Totally. And so they already understand how to build these things up. Now, again, the, the big reason why we do not call these people influencers is because they are selling themselves constantly. Right? An influencer has to be really careful about what they put out to their audience. Now, the way that the TikTok algorithm works, and I'm sure you know it is content based. Right? It's content focused. And so it doesn't really matter whether you've got a great following or not. Right. In fact, it's probably better if you don't because. So one really interesting thing with creators is they actually want to work with the same brand or, sorry, with the same type of product with different brands. They're totally fine repping Coke and Pepsi together. That's just wild, right? Like, why would they be okay with that? But they are. They're totally fine with that because at the end of the day, they just want to bring cool products forward. And even if it's so, if they find two in the same category versus an influencer would never do that. They would never sell out.

[A]

The brand would not want them to do that.

[B]

No. But in this new world of social commerce, it's the creators that actually have all of the leverage. Right? They're the ones that have the leverage over, over the brand. It's wild.

[A]

Fascinating distinction. I. I grew up in old school PR and I actually worked for some of the big agencies in Manhattan. Fun, reputation, fun, fun, fun. And then the reputation was everything. You're one article, you're one phone call, you're one bad message away from complete brand destruction, and you're walking around on pins the whole time. And this new perspective, exactly like you described, it's a fluid natural environment where people are sharing content. The waterfall is actually a tsunami. And it's about operating at scale in a way that empowers the distributor, the creator of content, rather than the brand, which needs to be protected.

[B]

I, I wish what we could do right now is go on to ChatGPT and look at these massive behemoth brands and how much their stock is down right now. Right. And the reason right now, by the way, I'm, I'm doing an audiobook on this. Reason why I'm doing an audiobook is it's just so much faster. And so I'm going through this in part of the beginning, part of the audiobook of all of these brands that are down massive amounts right now because they do not understand that they cannot control their narrative anymore, right? The narrative is in the hands of the people, right? When Instagram came out, right, it started to be like, okay, well, we can control the narrative. We can, we can. You know, like with pr, right, it's like you're constantly controlling the narrative. You cannot do that anymore. You have no more control over the narrative. And so the control that you have is over your creators at least talking about your products, right? And the way that you treat your creators, the brands that crush that. We work and we work with a lot of like really Big Fortune 500 companies in social commerce club. We're, we're the, as of this month, we should be the number one agency as far as GMV on the entire platform. GMV just being revenue push. So we do know what we're doing. We know how this works. We know how to work with these massive brands when it comes to this. And it's really, really fun. But also, the majority of these huge brands are so scared to give up the message, right? And they want to see every single, every single item that comes through. And the problem is it's not going to work. It's not going, they're going to get left behind. Look at Lulu. Look at Nike. Look, look at them this year, right? Like we're, we're also, we're the top fashion agency. We won top fashion agency this year at TikTok. And those, those big behemoths are moving too slow. It's not like it's not working for them. They need this new word of mouth at scale, right? That's the, that's the issue. Because there's all of these fighter brands that are coming up and absolutely crushing them. That because they can move faster, right? They're working with creators, they can move faster. Their messaging shifts with how creators talk.

[A]

It's wild and disruption and humor and usually the things that were kryptonite for PR for major brands because they heightened risk is the lifeblood of a lot of this stuff. Look at liquid death.

[B]

Yes, yes. Really good example.

[A]

Zany social stuff. Creators going nuts with the product user generated left and right. It's just a, it's a can of water.

[B]

Man, it's water. It's water. It's a really good brand to look at, right. When you're looking at. At studies of, like, what to do as a brand. Right. And. And how it's. So I've run. I've run a podcast for years. At first it was called Secrets of scaling your E Commerce brand. When I went all in on TikTok shop. It's now called Unofficial Tik Tok Shop Podcast. Just because I really love. I really love talking about that. And there's not a lot of people out there in the space that know. But I had the opportunity to interview the CMO of Liquid Death before. They were huge. And I. We.

[A]

We're not worthy because they are really the archetype of exactly what you're talking about.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Except I looked at it and I was like, oh, this is a small brand. I don't. Because I. At the time I was talking to. Making sure to try to talk to brands 50 million and above and they were not there yet. And I was like, I'm gonna pass on this one, Silas. My. And I could not believe. It was like six months later. I'm like, get them on the podcast. I need them on the podcast. And I missed my opportunity. So I will tell you, ego. Ego is the enemy, guys. Like, like never. Yeah.

[A]

This is why I say I was looking at crypto. In 2011, I went to Mount Gox. I was hanging out. I was like, this looks like bullshit.

[B]

Hey, I think long term. I'm just gonna say I think long term. You're still. Right

[A]

at the moment. I mean, I don't know. It was $5 and 55 cents. But anyway, we. We digress. I'm completely aligned which this. With this evolution, transformation from the influencer to the creator. And it sounds like to me you're working with brands to connect with the right creator. Is. Is that. Can. Can you zero in on. On the. On on your service?

[B]

Oh, what we do at Social Commerce Club. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's a new. It's a new world. It's. It's a new world for people, for brands. Right. And they don't know how to make the paradigm shift. They have to make a paradigm shift. Right. A lot of brands are treating this as a new sales channel. Right. So they'll often put it into their marketplace division, which just makes me laugh because I'm like, you obviously don't get the channel if you're putting it in with like Amazon and Walmart and these channels. Like, it is not a demand capture channel. It is an entire brand new brand channel. Right. It's even beyond a demand generation channel. It's a brand channel. And so it, it's very obvious that most brands do not understand the channel. So they come to us at Social Commerce Club for number one to understand the channel. Right. Number two to execute at a high level on the channel with our creator network to start. So what we do is we sift through the 8020 of the 8020 of the 8020 to find the best creators so that when brands come on board with us they get those creators from day one. And so that's, that's really a huge part of what we're doing. And the next part of what we do is we, we really help brands understand how to execute on the channel in a. In a very large way and actually scale on the channel. There's brands that work with us again I can't say their names but very big publicly traded companies that work with us who this is the pace car of their entire business. They have said to us this is the channel might not be the highest revenue channel yet, but it is the pace car of their business. Some of these brands will do like next year $100 million on the channel. Think of that, think of that. And it halos over to everything else. And so that's what we do. Our team is incredible. I don't want this to be a big pitch fest but like there's no one that's even the concept is.

[A]

Is so on point, so timely, so trending and it's transformative for marketing, advertising and outreach. Basically empowering creators who are. You're ultimately empowering their customer if you really think about it, which is people who are naturally enthusiastic about a product and then integrate it into the flow of their own narrative. The question that I have though is how do you draw a connection? So you got the to your exact point. Creators are creating. They're not going to read a script for you. Which is the old. It's the old definitely will not. That's what I mean. So counterpoint to the influencer model. So control is mitigated to non existent. You're providing guidance and not guardrails. How do you make that connection between creators and brands that are apropos and then how do you provide that linkage, that alignment to in a sense assure that the communication is organic and natural and whiplashes back to the brand in a way that boosts their KPIs.

[B]

So capitalism is the answer here, right?

[A]

The capitalism is always the answer.

[B]

Well, the incentives are completely aligned, right. If the, if the creator posts videos that don't sell the product, they don't get paid. Right? So they only get paid when they don't get any retainer deals. There's nothing like that. We don't believe in like big retainer deals unless the brand has worked. Occasionally we'll pay. A creator will be like, hey, we don't want you to work with any of the competitors, right? Like, let's just say I'm trying to name brands that aren't our brands. Let's just say I don't work with Nike right now. Let's just say that Reebok, right, was like there and we're like, yeah, we, we Lego.

[A]

You're a LEGO guy, right? You don't want to be a mega, Mega blocks.

[B]

Sure. I can't name, I can't name those brands. So.

[A]

Yeah, okay. Wow. You got, you got some reach. I'm just, I'm just reaching into the barrel and, and yeah, just. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So as of today, we don't work with Nike or Reebok and I really want to work Nike specifically, I would love to work with you. I think that they're moving way too slow. Nike and Lulu, those are ones that, it's just like, why? Again, I'm, I don't know if you know, I'm a Canadian. Have lived, was living in Vancouver for a long time. I actually live a little, little ways away. But like all of these incredible Vancouver brands are moving way too slow. They're moving way Aritzia. We see. I'm like, what is your problem? Like, do you not understand that this

[A]

is BlackBerry guys, come on, man.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, BlackBerry is going to do massive on TikTok shop. So today, by the way, just a quick aside. Today they announced a, an invite only program for digital products on TikTok shop. That is massive. That is a really big. People have been asking me about this for a while, like when are they going to have digital products? So now all of the, they unlocks this massive category of digital products on TikTok Shop. Absolutely huge. Also travel, travel is coming to TikTok Shop as well right now through a special TikTok program. So really very cool things that are happening there. So, so sometimes we'll lock up retainers, retainer deals for certain creators so they don't go and work with the competitor. That's the only time that I can really see, see doing that now on the other side as well. Right? If a, if a creator over promises, right? They talk about this pot and pan set and they're like, oh my gosh, this is the most incredible pot and pan set. You've never seen anything like this. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Does this, does this. And they lie about it. They get their commission clawed back from refunds, right? So the entire thing, it's a beautiful. Again, it is just. TikTok shop is just a microcosm of capitalism.

[A]

It's just like exactly the invisible hand of Adam Smith, Right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What you're saying. So if you mess it up, creator, then your own profit plummets. And if you're good at what you do, you make money and then the brand is being disseminated.

[B]

So versus influencer marketing did not have any of that. Influencer marketing is like somebody will pay me four or five grand to post for them whether it drives sales or not. And it doesn't matter. There's no incentive for me to do more or less or whatever. That's why I don't think influencer marketing works. I think that it's like, it's this, it's. And again, influencer marketing hasn't really been around that long. Like think like read Shoe Dog and read what Phil Knight did, right? Like, that was fairly new. It wasn't like a. It wasn't a thing. Like when he, when he got Michael Jordan on board, right? That wasn't like that big of a thing. And that was really like the, the advent of this type of marketing. And again, there's, there's some examples of previously, but not really. Right. And. And so we've been working out how to create this win win with people online. And now every single person can be a creator. That's wild, right? That's really, really wild. And then you see the other platforms, right? You see YouTube coming on and making it easier and easier for that to happen. You see Instagram hopping on board at the same time, right? We're just, we're just. Everyone knows we are inundated with these platforms coming to us being like, how do we launch? Like, what should we do? Exactly.

[A]

Talk about being behind the curve. I mean, the Instagram algorithm, And frankly, the YouTube algorithm for a creator sucks compared to TikTok. There's no accident that, that the, the original algorithm was that hot and it became such a hot potato, even politically, because it works. It's astonishing.

[B]

It's also scary.

[A]

Yeah. It really knows the user and measures the hell out of everything and it, and it treats it as a content focus. To your point, it circulates and recirculates your videos. Instagram never does that. Right. You don't need to tweak the SEO like you need to do in, in YouTube. Why do you need to be a PhD in SEO to get your, your YouTube video visible?

[B]

Well, it's ridiculous in the world of AI, right?

[A]

What your content is. It should know who you are and it should match you with an audience. What's so hard about it? You have done all the work creating your content, so all of a sudden you need to be an algorithmic expert. Just to be seen.

[B]

I mean we're all, we all feel that. Yeah.

[A]

Allow me to vent a little bit as a, as a creator and in a sense to extol the virtue of the TikTok algorithm as being perfect for this kind of experience for both creator, for brand and for user.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It is qualitatively different, folks. TikTok is.

[B]

And this is why TikTok was able to have TikTok shop absolutely take off when every third video is a TikTok shop video. Right. They understood that people actually want to hear about new products from regular people. So go over to Meta. Right. So what, One of the things that we do at social commerce club is we then take all of that, all, all of those videos and then we take the top videos, we get rights from the creators to use them and then we use those over on Meta. And what do you think the top performing videos for all of these massive brands are now? They are these whitelisted incredible creator videos on the other platforms. Right. And they beat all of their other videos. That's crazy. That's just crazy.

[A]

It's not surprising. And then you've got built in editing tools like, you know, Cap Cut is great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then creators are empowered with creating their own multimedia little clips, which is super fun. And creators too, just to add to that is not just even making money on product, but you grow your following exponentially with every viral success that you do for a brand.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

And it does create, it creates a win win between the creator, between the brand. Right. Then the brand's putting money behind your, your videos which then gets you out to a bigger audience, then gets you a better following. Right. It is, it is the invisible hand at work constantly. So I love that.

[A]

Makes a hell of a lot of sense. So how do you tap into a brand's identity? So when you're working with brands, you're essentially a B2B resource. Here it sounds like where I've got brand X and I'm behind The curve. And I know I need to rock it on TikTok. I've got an antiquated marketing and advertising team. They're still placing hard copy ads in People magazine and I need to up my game.

[B]

I think I was trying to think like, what's something worse than that? I, I can't maybe, I can't think of anything worse than that. As far as like what a marketing team could do.

[A]

Go to your supermarket and there's People magazine.

[B]

No measurement.

[A]

No. Yeah, nothing. Right. Like how the hell do you know? It's like, you know, you're watching TV as a five year old and then you get an Alzheimer's drug ad on your tv. Watching the cartoon them. I mean, really. So we still have a long way to go, but the trailblazer is exactly what you're talking about here. So, so how, how does it work? I'm, I'm, I'm a CMO of a company that, that's got to catch up and I know that TikTok's hot and you've got a proven reputation and you do this creator stuff on TikTok shop.

[B]

Yes. So it can't be. This isn't brand, this isn't brand marketing. We don't start with brand marketing. Right. We're not just putting all of our products out there. Right. What we recommend is that you pick your top three products. Right. That creators want to sell. So beloved products that creators love. So Ninja, which is not one of our brands yet, but we're actually talking to them next week so I can talk about them. So Shark, Shark Ninja is a really, really good example, right? Their products that took off our beloved products. The Ninja Creamy is a product that people love. Now how much does a Ninja Creamy cost? Something like $200. It is, it's, it's a large amount of money. But creators love the Ninja Creamy and so creators took that product and it absolutely crushed. Shark Ninja does a massive amount of revenue on here because they looked at the products that creators would love. They're not selling vacuums, Right. Creators do not want to sell a vacuum on there. Now maybe Dyson would be good for that. Right? Because people love the Dyson vacuums. Whatever a creator would love and can get behind that is the product to give to them. Right? And so, so that's really part of the key is figuring out which part of your product line. There are brands that we're recommending actually make specific products for TikTok Shop. That's the crazy thing I was going

[A]

to ask you about. That. So I love your approach, which is you don't swim against the stream and you take the lowest of low hanging fruit of brands of products that your creators are already loving and they can't wait to talk about it. So you're not forcing it onto a creator. Again, old school influencer marketing, which is knowing nothing about the audience. And here's, here's five grand Boviate about this. But they're already using it or they're enthusiastic about using it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then the other point you're making, which is terrific, which is you don't have a product like that yet which kind of fits that profile. Tweak it, make it totally.

[B]

Which is why some of these big brands do not understand how to get on the platform. Right. Like we have been in many, many boardrooms. I was in, in Manhattan last week and as a little Canadian over there, oh my gosh, not little, but I'm like six, four.

[A]

You got tons of hair.

[B]

Oh yeah, yeah. That really helped me with New Yorkers. I will tell you. I had to puff my chest up a little bit at points, you know, trying to help these huge brands understand what they're going to have to do to get onto the platform. Right. And, and again, this is why I right now am trying to put the book on the subject out there is because it takes a paradigm shift. It is not just tactical, right. I have a YouTube channel with, with tons of videos, hundreds of thousands of, of views constantly for tactics. But it's actually not a tactical issue right now. Right? It's actually a paradigm shift. I don't know if you've ever had this in your life before. I'm sure you have, you know, seeing your, your, the amount of hair you have right now, right. Knowing that you've been through some stuff and you have this massive paradigm shift and you're like, oh, I finally get it. I get exactly what we need to do. I get what. And, and that's the problem is that brands don't get this yet. It is, it's a very similar, very similar issue right now to AI in which we don't understand yet what that's going to look like. The amount of AI content that I am constantly consuming to understand, like what is the next world going to look like? Like, like our organization is going to be hundreds of people soon. And so like what do I do as the founder of an organization like that to prepare? It's the same thing with brands right now. They need to understand that there is going to be this massive shift that you're going to have to make in your brain and that paradigm shifts are, are the absolute basis to be able to, to catapult off. And you've seen it, you see it with older people, right? All the time you're like, yeah, they just never made the paradigm shift.

[A]

It's the old executive. So you have people who grew up with influencer marketing. The reason that they're senior management is because they've been an ass in a chair for 10, 20 years.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

You need young talent folks. Get your intern and put them in charge for, for a week. Seriously. Seriously. Because they get it. They live this stuff. Yeah.

[B]

P and G was always really good at this, right? Where they took from, from the front lines, right? They took the feedback. We're constantly trying to do that. In fact, I, I'm so inspired by, by Elon's management in the way that he goes and does skip level meetings throughout his organization to find out like what is actually going on. What is, like what is the pain on the ground? Like where he'll just spend days upon days on the assembly line figuring out what's going on. I am so inspired by that. And that is what TikTok shop and what social commerce does, right. It allows you to be on the factory floor hearing from your creators, constantly having this constant feedback loop from creators. It is, it is incredibly compelling to be able to again, just as a research assistant for you, right, Go ahead, break even on the channel. Just as research to find out what people actually want. Right? No longer are brands going. I have, I have a whole chapter in this book talking about how you can cut your entire research and development budget because you have brands telling. Or you, sorry, you have creators telling you what to do and then you have constant validation from the market. Right? Like especially in the States, guys, we have 200 million people spending 90 minutes a day on this platform. Number one. Like, I just cannot believe that people spend that much time on their phones on one app. Right? The, that all aside, people are doing it. And so as brands, you need to be where people are. You're not going to. You know, morally I'm like, I feel like a cigarette executive in the 80s where you're like, I think that this is the cigarettes of our day.

[A]

You're the Madman TV show.

[B]

Oh, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. Yeah. Like one of my, one of my soon to be business partners lives in that kind of place. And, and I feel I'm like, oh yeah, that's right. We're the, we're the cigarette Executives. Okay, I got it. And. And yet on the other side, we have created tens of thousands of jobs at social commerce club for creators.

[A]

Oh, absolutely.

[B]

Right. Incredible what we have been able to do for them. And then you look at the broader ecosystem, there's gonna be millions of jobs created from this. Like, I am so glad that in the States they did not get rid of TikTok because it would have been horrific economically. I think about the amount of these millennial moms that don't have to go into offices and can work from home with their kids. That's cool. That's super cool. Right? So that's what we hold on to. And the way that, that I sleep at night.

[A]

Absolutely. And what about the new regime? TikTok was bought ostensibly to keep it in play. And have you noticed changes to the algorithm? Is it more receptive than it was before to monetization to opportunities like TikTok shop? There's. There's kind of a new management. There is a new management. I hate it when people say kind of sort of in their speech. You notice that if you. Yeah, you kind of. It either is or it isn't. I.

[B]

So I was again at New York head office last week. We have a lot of access because we're one of the top agencies in North America and we have not. I, if I didn't know, I wouldn't know that there's much of a difference. So as far as we can tell, it's business as usual. It's being, It's. Yeah, I don't see any difference. I think it's just on paper I

[A]

understand it could be a sensitive subject to you, but our listeners and viewers are wondering what, what's up? Because, you know, TikTok was almost bye bye. People were going over to the red line or whatever in China and they were outraged and jumping ship and TikTok got saved. It's under new management and people are just wondering.

[B]

Yeah, so we see no difference. We see zero difference as far as it being managed.

[A]

Reassuring, I think, to creators.

[B]

Yeah, I, I think that creators, if, if anything they will figure out how comparatively TikTok is under monetized compared to other channels. So one of the things that people might not realize is that TikTok was a horrible platform for understanding the customer journey from ads over into.com or Amazon. And yet we knew that when we turned off TikTok ads, suddenly everything stopped. But we lived in this world where everyone had to measure everything and justify everything except for influencers somehow.

[A]

And.

[B]

But paid media was like that. That's why I really believe that that's where TikTok shop came from, is like, they're like, okay, we need to figure out how to actually show this. And in a closed ecosystem, every single dollar is accounted for. So much so now that like spending on GMV Max, which is the automated platform that you use to spend money on TikTok shop ads. It is I, we have a tool internally at Social Commerce Club. It's something actually we're going to put out into the broader ecosystem, but it's such an, such an insane tool that we're only allowing our clients to have it. It's called Halo. It measures the halo effect from TikTok shop over onto these other platforms. And it's wild. Guys, there's a, there's a client of ours who does around 50 to 70k a day on the platform and they're doing $200,000 extra on their retail, their owned retail and their dot com and Amazon an extra $200,000 a day.

[A]

Think about that like they, that's called Omni Channel, right? Where.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

It's jumping from one to the other. And then you've got people using multiple devices in different ways throughout the day and people are acclimated, especially the digital natives who are eating this stuff up to just be absorbing content from multiple sources, multiple modalities, and jumping from one platform to another. So that, that makes all the sense in the world. You did bring up paid advertising and I wanted to ask, ask you about that now. Being an influencer, being a creator on TikTok, you could go organic, which is you pump your content out there and see what the algorithm will do for you based on your content, based on who you're following, based on who's following you. And you hope to grow. Everyone wants to expand their reach and engagement, then you have an opportunity to pay to play. And how does that factor into the creator ecosystem in terms of that capitalism that you were talking about earlier?

[B]

So brands still, here's one thing that people don't realize. I think brands don't realize before they go in brands, when they are employing or deploying capital in paid ads, also pay a percentage to the creators still on their, on their videos. And so it's not the same percentage as organic. So luckily this is something that we pushed back on in the early days. Again, we were one of the first agencies here. We're like constantly giving TikTok the feedback of like, no, we need this. So one of the big things that we pushed back on at the beginning was creators. We need to pay out creators separately with organic content and paid content that we're putting money behind. And so often we'll have, let's say, a 20% commission on organic content and like an 8% commission on paid content. That's to make up for the fact like brands, again, to, to create a real win win. And this is what we're constantly talking about. We need creators to understand because these creators are not business people. They're like the opposite of business people. Like, you do not want to, you have to explain these things to creators. Right? These are moms at home who are creating, really good at creating content and selling stuff, but they do not understand the economics of selling things online. Right. And so you need to help them understand, okay, we're going to pay you 20% here because we can afford it, and we're going to pay you 7% over here because we're also putting ads behind it. I think being more transparent with your creators is great. Hey, by the way, this channel we only make 10% on, that's not our regular, you know, that's not a regular profit that we're. That we have on other channels. But we're doing it for this and should. Breaking down the cost for them, I think is really important because most brand, most creators don't understand this.

[A]

And would you inspire creators to run their own ads?

[B]

So as you said that, I thought to myself, so this is not an option, as far as I know, this is not an option on TikTok shop is for creators to run their own ads. As I was thinking about this, I was like, man, like, this is classic affiliate marketing. You would run your own ads behind different offers. This is not a thing on TikTok shop, as far as I know right now, Mookie, like, this is. Creators have not gotten this far. Now me just being at TikTok, I should have brought this up to them and they should create something like this.

[A]

Bring, bring me along next time you can get reflected sunlight from my head in the, in the conference room.

[B]

Well, it might actually, it might actually help a lot with my credibility, you know, to come in. They all probably think I'm so young, you know, because of this hair that I have here, you know, but it's.

[A]

They're just jolly like I am. That. That's all. That's all. But again, I think this idea of, of integrating engagement with paid advertising is evolving to your point and empowering creators with that tool as well. Because now as a creator, you're empowered to Pump your ads that are, that are just your own content. Right? I mean, I get ads every damn day. Every time I pump my own micro influencer, micro creator content on TikTok. Yeah, I get an opportunity, get 3x, 3x the views. Mookie, with this great rant you just did about, you know, Canadian hockey, and then boom, right? I can pay 20, 30, $50 with guaranteed reach.

[B]

I. I need to. So you have, you have gotten me thinking here about this and whether creators are able to do this or not. This is something I'm putting in. I'm going to make some content about tomorrow because this is a really interesting idea and something that I wonder if creators will start gamifying and something that we can help them gamify.

[A]

Absolutely would. There's no question about it. Because as a creator, you're always at decision point. You know, when Yogi Berra said, if you hit a fork in the road, then take.

[B]

Take it. So, like, just the best advice, though, by the way, just make, make decisions. Just make a decision.

[A]

Just keep going. Just keep going. Just stay in, stay in motion, folks. It doesn't matter if you mess it up. You're in motion. So you could get back on the, on the, on the train, the number one fork in the road. Every time you hit post, you've already always got it in the back of your mind, like, if I actually pumped a few dollars into this, would it exponentially increase my reach and pop me viral? And then TikTok, frankly, play with you with this. TikTok will give you a gift every once in a while as a creator, where all of a sudden you're getting an average engagement rate of maybe a few thousand views and boom, you go viral. And then you're like, oh, that felt good, but that's a blip. You might go viral in a week, you might go viral in a month, and you gotta taste. And right after you go viral, they're like, hey, creator, did you like that? You want a little more?

[B]

Totally. And creators do. They do want more. They always want more.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. And the other thing is, what I have noticed about the new ownership is that they're. They're pushing monetization even harder for creators than they did before.

[B]

It's. It's a drug. I mean, that's the, that's the thing about all of this online content is it is a drug. When you see those numbers, you're like, I want more. I want more. Yes, it's playing into and. And for better or for worse, it is the way that brands are blowing up right now. Right. And creators. And I can't think of a better way for brands to be able to get out in the world right now than on TikTok shop. Like, there's no better way. And I know the other platforms are coming, which, again, we will be first on all of those platforms. I have no doubt. I just think that the brands that don't get it now and don't build the muscle now are dead. They're dead.

[A]

I totally agree. And frankly, I'm astonished as to how clunky Instagram still is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I, I post the exact. This is another phenomena that I'm sure you're familiar with among creators. I don't just post on TikTok. I take the same damn video with the same hashtags and the same captions and all the doodads, and I put it on Instagram and YouTube and I get 1 10th, 1, 100th, 1 1,000th the engagement. It's the exact same content.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it's. Yeah. I mean, this is why Tik Tok became what it is. This is why people spend so much time on Tik Tok.

[A]

And there's like a billion and a half people on Instagram. So Zuck is like, oh, we're. That's fine.

[B]

Yeah. Except. Except that I. Except they're really lacking creators over there. Right. That is one thing that you. That you have heard from them time and time again that they want. They've been trying to pay creators to move over huge amounts of money. There's stuff that came out where they're paying like, hundreds of thousands of dollars to get creators off of TikTok over to Instagram. Right.

[A]

Why would you do that? The interface sucks, the algorithm sucks, and you need to do your SEO magic. You've got all these, These experts who are advising you how you need to tweak your tagging. Get out of here with this. I just made content. You should know who my audience is. Yeah, yeah. Why? Because TikTok already does a good job of it. Yeah. So it's astonishing. It's really the challenge of leadership. You know, when the, the, the leader falls asleep like IBM computers.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

You get tired and lazy. And frankly, I think Meta is like that, and even Google's like that in the space. I want to be respectful of your time, and I want to close it by giving you a chance to pitch, which is. I'm a decision maker at a brand and I'm trying to Figure this out. So what happens for me to get my brand up to speed? What, what needs to change in my head? And then what tactical steps do I need to do to build this army of creators that'll energize me in the social space in ways that my multi channel digital campaign with banners that no one looks at can never do. Now, what's gotta happen, Jordan?

[B]

Well, I think the first, the first thing that I would help you realize, Mookie, is that your ads are continuing to cost more and more on these channels that you're trying to shove content in front of people. Right. If you've noticed your meta CPA going up massively and your frequency on meta going up constantly, the reason that's happening is that the content that you're putting out there is only reaching this certain audience that will buy no matter what. Right. And you no longer are able to get in front of the people that matter. Right. And the new people that are making purchases. And so you've hit this small amount of audience that everyone else is going after that sucks at advertising right now. Right. And. And you don't know what people out there want. Right. You don't know what your customer wants anymore because you're not close enough to them. You don't have the close enough, tight enough feedback loop to understand what they want.

[A]

Bing. The creators know because they. That's the beauty. That's how I wanted to tie this all in a knot. I can do all the market research in the world and I can hire McKinsey and all these other folks and it's nothing compared to an army of creators with their own following. Reaching out personally in the digital space on a platform that has an effective algorithm like TikTok. I think that that's the key differentiator.

[B]

One of the big things that I want to launch in the Next, call it three months, I'd love to launch next week is the McKinsey of Social Commerce change. I don't think that anyone sees how to do it yet. And this is how big orgs change is with, with big amounts of data and, and this. That's how you change. That's how you move a big ship.

[A]

The creator, the lens of your troops in the field. Right?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

All that petabytes of data flying at you, right? One on one.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Jordan west, the social commerce Club. Activating creators and connecting them with brands to do marketing and advertising in a way that's no longer marketing and advertising. What would you call it, Jordan? Just to put a cap on this. What do we call this new kind of engagement through the lens of social through creative.

[B]

This is social commerce. This is word of mouth. At scale is social commerce.

[A]

Respectfully that you need to rebrand that brand. Social commerce. Sounds boring, Jordan. I'll think about it. You need a term with Zing buddy for this. Come back to me. We'll do another podcast and we'll think of something that's sexier than social commerce. Come on, you're a. You're a salesman.

[B]

Sounds good. I'll, I'll be back for that.

[A]

Get some riz like comment Share Everybody subscribe Bald ambition. Thanks so much to Jordan. I would love to follow up with you and see where this is headed. And good luck with your pitch coming up.

[B]

Yeah, thanks for having me on, especially

[A]

with that buana hair. You're going to rock it, buddy.