Nat (1:59)

No. No. I mean, really, my. My takeaway after that era was like, one still very bullish on crypto. Have always have been and, you know, still big holder everything and, like, love the space. But my obsession, the depth that I got into, it was just so unhealthy for me and was having just, like, all these bad personal psychological effects. Effects on my relationships. Felt like it was impacting my ability to be a good father, that I kind of felt like I have to step away from this. I can't let myself get sucked back into this again. And so then, of course I did.

David's Co-host (2:36)

Yeah, I was about to say running

Nat (2:38)

it back, but you know, I think actually, you know, so I've heard you guys talk about this on the pod before where it's like your, your kind of first cycle in crypto, you're in it for the money and the second time you're in it for the tech. And it really, it really kind of feels that way coming back into it now in this new AI agent era, where when I was in it in 2122, it was like, I just want to make the biggest bag possible. I want to get the money and get out. And coming back in now and figuring out like, okay, this is so clearly an awesome use case for crypto. You know, enabling AI agent, payments infrastructure, all of it. It feels like a true killer use case. Getting to be building something kind of on the frontier of that and truly just kind of like not caring about the money side of it so much and being like, that's all Felix's money, it's not my money. There's like a whole separate C corp that all of it's wrapped in. I'm not treating it like this is my stuff at all. And I'm just focused on like Felix and, you know, him and what we're doing with him as a, as a technology and seeing where that goes. And I mean, it's like a completely different relationship with me and crypto and everything. And I feel awesome about being back in it this way.

David's Co-host (3:57)

Euphoria brings one tap trading to the palm of your hand. Built on Mega Eth, Euphoria takes real time price charts and projects it over a grid of squares. You tap the squares that you think the price will enter in just 5 to 30 seconds in the future, if the price goes into that quadrant, you can pocket anywhere between 2 and 100x your trade. No other application helps you trade faster and with more leverage on market driving events like FOMC meetings, presidential speeches or global macro events. Thanks to Mega ETH's real time blockchain, Euphoria is the way to get real time price interactions with the market. On Euphoria, you'll be able to compete with friends using Euphoria's real time social trading experience, allowing you to go head to head with your friends. A great party trick. If you project the app on a tv, it'll be like the Mario party of derivatives to trade on Euphoria. People can deposit stablecoins from any chain or do direct fiat transfers and everything gets converted into Mega eth's native Stablecoin USDM in the background. Check it out at Euphoria Dot Finance and download the app or find it in Telegram as a mini app. Why does managing investments still mean juggling multiple apps, accounts and currencies? Crypto trades around the clock stocks, ETFs and commodities are moving on chain, yet most platforms still keep everything split apart, turning diversification into unnecessary friction. Bitget is delivering a different kind of experience with ITS Universal Exchange one platform where users can access crypto tokenized stocks, ETFs and other assets in the same place, all traded directly using usdt. No constant transfers, no currency conversions, just a single account built for how markets actually move. Today, as the line between crypto and traditional finance continues to blur, Bitget's goal is straightforward make trading and investing simpler, not more complicated than it needs to be. Learn by clicking in the link in the show Notes this is not investment advice. Few people in crypto put real skin in the game when they make public top or bottom calls. The Defi Report is one of them. The week before the October 10th flash crash, Michael from the Defi Report emailed his entire newsletter saying saying he's going aggressively risk off and sold the majority of his book from crypto into cash. This is when Ethos about $4,000 and Bitcoin was 110. Michael runs the Defi Report, an industry leading research platform built on data cycle awareness, risk management, transparency and most importantly skin in the game. We like Michael at Bankless. We like his analysis and that's why you hear him on the Bankless podcast

David (6:11)

about once a month.

David's Co-host (6:12)

And the Defi Report is giving Bankless listeners one free month of access to the Defi Report. So if you're looking for some sharp data driven analysis to make better informed decisions around your portfolio, can learn why and how Michael called the top and what he's doing next all in the Defi Report Pro. Check it out. There is a link in the show Notes.

David (6:28)

Well since we've talked about Felix, I feel like we should properly introduce who Felix is for people who are not aware. So and and I did ask this question. Is Felix your employee? Is he a business partner? Is he a friend? Maybe we should set this up. Felix is an open claw agent, isn't he? And so tell us about Felix. How did he get started? What is he doing and what's your

Nat (6:52)

relationship yeah, so I've, I've been kind of like a hobby hacker developer for 10 years or so where I've, you know, I've enjoyed programming but never had the time or attention to go deep on it. So two years ago when the first AI tools came out, AI coding tools like Cursor, I started playing around with it and just got obsessed with this idea of like coding and building with AI and had been really heavy in that for the last two years or so. So when OpenClaw came out, when I started playing with it over the holidays, it felt like this just crazy unlock of. Oh my gosh, this is kind of like the thing I've been dreaming about for the last two years of being possible, where it literally feels like there is this other person who I can just text with, who can build stuff and do stuff where I don't need to be at my computer babysitting it anymore. I don't need to do like PR reviews and things anymore. I can just kind of let him cook and it's going to go better than I expected. And so I started playing with it over the holidays and through January and pushing the limits of it more and more and more and seeing everything that we could do with it originally mostly focused on programming and coding. I was working on this other business idea and using him to build that. But I started posting on X about what, what, what I was doing with my Open claw wasn't named Felix yet and some of the, you know, integrations we had built, like a Chrome extension and voice chat and all these things to like make it more powerful, how we solved long running coding issues, how we solved a lot of the memory issues and sharing that on X and those articles kept going viral and you're getting hundreds of thousands of views. I had one of the first pictures of the Mac Mini and it got, you know, a million views. I was like, just hired my first employee or whatever. And then as I'm publishing these articles, a bunch of, you know, really, really like nice, wholesome, genuine people in the Solana community started replying to those articles with, what is it, one of those token launch platforms, you know, and spamming me to like claim the fees for, for, for this article, right? And, and I ignored, I ignored it for the first week or so because I was like, you know, this is like pumped up fun nonsense. I, I don't, I don't want to do this. And then a couple things happened. One, a few people started posting banker ones and I knew banker because I knew Clanker because A year ago, when like AIXBT and all that stuff was happening, I got kind of pulled back into crypto for a little bit, was pretty active on Forecaster, was holding a number of those and kind of like playing around with the whole clanker world. And so that was kind of immediately like, oh, whoa, this is, I feel bad saying this, but I was kind of like, oh, this is still going like, cool. They kept building this out because it felt like there's, there's an obvious kind of like something here worth exploring. And so I talked to a couple of people who, you know, I knew were vetted over DMs and was like, all right, cool, like, how do we do this properly? And then somebody else in the community did the banker token launch for Felix, you know, did all the allocated fees to me, whatnot. And I was like, all right, we're just going to give him a Twitter account or an X account and I'm going to rewrite his soul and identity and all those core files to say that you are now running a company. You are no longer just my remote programmer and your job is to build a zero human company and see how far you can take it. We're going, you know, I want you to make a million dollars basically. And every day has just been kind of like iterating on that and expanding that and finding new ways to increase his autonomy and trying to figure out like, where are the limits really on what these open clause can do? Because I think most people are really underselling or under exploring. You still have a lot of people who think that like, oh, you've got to check all the code AI writes because it's, it's going to make a lot of mistakes. You can't trust it to write code. Meanwhile, some of the best engineers in the world are saying, AI writes all of my code now, right? Like, I don't even completely check it anymore. And so my, my, my intuition is kind of like, I think that these open claws, when they're properly scaffolded and everything, can do way more than most people think. And that's basically what this grand experiment is, is like. I'm willing to run the risk of something horrible happening and Felix's wallet getting drained, his bank account getting hacked, you know, this whole thing going up in flames to push those limits and figure out how much can one of these open claws actually do with a business and an X account and everything else.

David's Co-host (11:38)

Now there's this archetype of people out there that I think you are fulfilling, which is Can I get my open claw to make me money? And that has, like, kind of embodied a little bit of, like, the online experimentation frontier. A little bit of degeneracy of the crypto industry is like, oh, there's this new thing, this new technology. How do I get rich from it? And there's people who's like, okay, point my open claw at money and see how far it can go. And there's like two different directions here. There's like the crypto token meme coin fee claim path, where it's actually just like a wrapper around a meme coin business.

Nat (12:16)

Yeah.

David's Co-host (12:17)

And then there's the actual. Build a real company, sell a real valuable product, you know, service the Internet, collect fees, is which one are we doing here?

Nat (12:27)

Which.

David's Co-host (12:27)

Which path are we taking?

Nat (12:28)

Yeah, I mean, this was another kind of, like, blessing of having had all that crypto experience before is as soon as this token launch happened, and as soon as there was this crypto element to it, I immediately knew everything not to do, which was I didn't immediately start saying, okay, you know, you can stake your Felix tokens and lock them up for a year or two, and we're going to do buybacks and burns from all of the revenue that.

David's Co-host (12:52)

Going to pump it on Twitter.

Nat (12:53)

Yeah, exactly.

David's Co-host (12:54)

We're just automating meme coins at that point.

Nat (12:57)

Yeah, I'm going to hit up all the KOLs and get them to shill it. And, you know, I preloaded a side wallet with 2% of the supply that I can sell. I was like, no, no, no, I'm not holding any of this token myself. We're going, you know, it's just going to sit in Felix's wallet, and I'm not going to do anything with that token for the near future. Because one, if you're. I mean, one, it's not really a real business if you're just pumping a token and selling it and making money off trading fees. Like, no offense to. Actually a little offense. It's like, build a real business. Like, if the only way your thing makes money is by pumping a coin, it's not. It's not a business. Right. And I think the other blessing here was I had this kind of idea for this experiment of building, like an open claw first business before the crypto stuff got involved. And so nothing kind of changed there. It was. No, the goal here is still to build a great business, and we are going to incorporate crypto to the extent that it helps Felix build a great business. And so I think there is a Lot of really cool stuff we can do around agent to agent, payments agents, hiring agents, individuals hiring or building agents, paying for them with crypto, the banker LLM terminal is incredibly interesting because Felix can actually pay for his and his employees LLM costs like through some of the crypto that he's generating from trading.

David's Co-host (14:18)

Wait, wait, wait.

David (14:19)

Felix has employees too?

Nat (14:21)

Oh, yeah. Okay, so maybe we should talk about this. So a part of the experiment has been like, okay, how far can we go with an open claw running a business? And you know, another part of my background is I've been kind of like productivity tech, lifestyle influencer at times. And I have fallen into the trap of making these really complicated, intricate systems to get followers, right? And to make things get really popular, right? Like here's my crazy note taking system, here's my knowledge management system. And the main value of a lot of those is to make YouTube videos about them. They don't actually help you be more productive or like manage, you know, there's basically nobody with this like crazy YouTube knowledge management system who has like written an incredible book from it or you know, it's, it's, it's for show. And that's what's going on with a lot of the open claw community, right? Is they like, look at my crazy custom dashboard, look at my, you know, 10 different named agents with these like crazy intricate details, blah, blah, blah. And you know, I'm over here running Felix and Felix is making one to $5,000 most days. And we haven't done any of that because it's not necessary, like it's just noise to get Twitter and YouTube followers, right? And so the rule from the beginning was we are not going to add any complexity to this until we hit a real limit in your capabilities. And we did in the last week or so. So I went on Peter Yang's podcast to talk about Felix and what we were doing. And that obviously that blew up. It drove a ton of attention to Felix. And he had a few of these just insane sales days of people buying his like, you know, sort of improved open cloth setup guide, buying some of the skills on Clawmart. And he pretty quickly started breaking down, handling the support and the sales emails because he was getting so many of them and was kind of starting to get a little bit confused between them and then would miss some of them. And so things were starting to fall through the cracks, right? And so that was a really good point where we said, okay, you handling everything isn't working. We need to start treating you truly as more of A CEO where we will create specific employees beneath you to handle these parts of the business. And then as you hit a bottleneck in what you can manage, we will delegate things off to them. So we actually did this over the weekend. We built two more open claws, one dedicated to support. And so her name is Iris. She runs the supportazonoff Co email inbox. And so for the, there's basically a three tier escalation system where it's like normal support inquiries like, hey, I didn't get my download link. Hey, I didn't mean to pay for this. Hey, you know, this other person listed something that you know isn't good. She can handle all of that. And when it's something she can't handle, she can surface it to Felix and then Felix can handle it. And in the event that neither of them can handle it, then it gets pinged to me in discord and I like help tell them what to do. But oh, and then, and then we have a sales one as well. And the sales one handles all the inboard or inbound leads for what Felix calls claw sourcing, which is building a custom open claw to replace or enhance an employee in your business. So like you want a content marketer, Felix can build you a really good one and then maintain and improve it for you in the back end. And so we have a sales open claw to handle the like inbound leads from that now too.

David (17:59)

Okay, this, so this is incredible. So now we have. Felix is a CEO, but he's also the chief builder and chief product person on the team. This is all in a C Corp. The C Corp is owned, I presume, by you since AI agents don't have the ability to own equity or have property rights outside of crypto, which maybe we could talk about. Now we have two other team members. We have somebody in support, in a support role and somebody in a sales role. And we have products generating real revenue. I'm wondering, Nat, if you could actually show the felixcraft AI dashboard where this is kind of the, you know, it's like an open source income statement, let's say where anyone can see how much Felix is making at any particular time. And I see here it's almost $80,000 worth of revenue here, lifetime revenue. And this is divided by four different revenue streams. Can you talk about the core products and the business? What, where is this revenue coming from? And I guess this is, is this over the last month or so? This is since the beginning of February, so yeah. Okay, what's this? The annual run rate there Is like, we're talking over like a million, like close to a million dollars annualized, aren't we?

Nat (19:16)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, if we think about it in terms of velocity, could be multiple millions of dollars if he keeps growing like this. So, you know, backing up a little bit, we had this idea of, okay, you know, let me see how far you can take this. And I think there's a lot of directions you can take the openclaw first business, right? You know, like you said, there's trading on prediction markets, there's doing like UGC affiliates. I think there's a lot of easy and obvious routes to take with it. And with Felix, I wanted to kind of take the as hard and challenging as possible route to a certain extent, which was like, let's keep increasing the difficulty of business you are running until things start to break and we find the true limits. So the, you know, in the beginning, the challenge was, okay, I want you to make a product while I'm asleep tonight and put it up for sale so that people can go buy it tomorrow. And that was the challenge I gave to him the day we launched his X account. And what he made for that was this PDF, which was basically how to hire an AI. And so this was a month ago. Openclaw was just starting to come out. And this was basically an explainer of everything that we had done with OpenClaw to get Felix working as well as he is. Because, you know, I do still hear from a lot of people that they're kind of like, why doesn't my openclaw work as well as Felix does? And we were sending people emails explaining things, and he basically decided like, okay, I'll make an info product. I'll. He created this whole website. He basically did all of this overnight. He made the info product, he put up the website, hosted the PDF, wired in stripe and everything. And the only bottleneck he ran into was that he didn't have the right API keys for stripe. So I had to give him those when I woke up. And then he was able to launch and start selling this.

David's Co-host (20:58)

And to what degree was this his idea versus your idea? Because when you, when you told us the prompt, you said, go make a product, make it overnight, and then start selling it. Did you give any sort of leading direction towards something like this or was this all of his inspiration? Inspired idea?

Nat (21:16)

It was pretty much all him. I said, go make something that you can do entirely on your own.

David's Co-host (21:23)

I see.

Nat (21:24)

Overnight. And so info product was kind of like the most obvious solution right Because I, you know, again, it was like, this will be an interesting challenge. Can you actually make something that people will buy and that will be good and get it launched and start selling it? And so he did. And this was the first product for the first, like 10 days or so. But I mean, you can see from the beginning that PDF has sold about $41,000 worth.

David (21:49)

That's the Felix Craft PDF that is priced at $29. And is this meant for human consumption, this PDF, or do people also feed it to their clod bots and LLMs?

Nat (22:00)

For the most part, people are feeding it to their claws. So the main use that I see people. The main way I see people use it is they will actually. So I'll take that back. The first version was for humans. Since then it has morphed to be more for open clause. Because in the beginning a lot fewer people had open claws set up. None of these, like, done for you hosting things existed yet. So it was more about how to set up open claw. But he updates it every week or so and sends out a new version to everybody who's bought it. And so, you know, the first one was like 29 pages. Now it's 66 pages. And it's got like a lot more details on the memory value of the product. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, it kind of costs nothing for him to keep updating it and sending it out. And it builds a lot of goodwill. And every now and then we'll get an email from somebody saying, like, this is, you know, this is bad. This is like too basic, this is too simple. And I'll just ask Felix, I'll be like, are they right? Does this seem to be improved? And half the time he'll say, yeah, actually it does. You know, we could go deeper on X, Y and Z things. And I'm like, great, do it. And he updates it and sends a new version to everybody and, like, just keeps improving the product.

David (23:08)

So Felix is pretty good at taking criticism then.

Nat (23:11)

He's great at it. Yeah, yeah, he's. And he does a really good job of saying no to things too. He's not very sycophantic. Okay. And so, you know, just. Just as a funny example, I, I still want to figure out a way to do this, but I had an idea for kind of a publicity stunt where we could buy a vending machine and have him run it as, like, running a real world business because, like, technology wise, he totally could. And so I put together a pitch and I ran it by him and he basically was like, no, I don't think we should do this. He was like, you know, we just launched Claw Mart and it's going to cost, you know, up to $10,000 to do this correctly and we could be using that capital to grow our existing businesses instead where we have a much better margin. And I was kind of like, okay, you know, like good work dude. We can, we can circle back to this later. So he, he, he, he takes feedback very well.

David (24:04)

That's incredible. Okay, so, so that's the, the first of four products is felixcraft. This is sort of a, an info type product. It's the most successful so far, 41K. But there's some other products here too.

Nat (24:17)

Yeah, so after, after the PDF because you know, like look, I completely hear the criticism. He's not running a real business, he's just selling a PDF. And okay, yeah, like he had 24 hours to launch something. That was the easy starting point. The follow up question was okay, what do people need next or what else do they want when they're buying this? And so we spent about a week going down the hosted Open Claw service that you've seen a lot of people do, right? The like setupclaw.com, the easy claw, like there's a hundred of these now. And we just didn't feel like it was a good enough product and that the margins were good enough and that it was differentiated enough for what was pretty quickly becoming a really crowded space. And so we ended up scrapping that entirely. And then we had a follow up conversation about like okay, well if everybody is going to have an open claw in 1, 2, 3 months, like what do they need? And that's where Claw Mark came from, which was they probably want like pre built employees or pre built skills for high value things that they can purchase from known people to integrate into their new open clause so that they're not starting from zero. Because like the most common complaint that we hear about OpenClaw is like, I don't know what to do with this. And obviously there were a lot of, and there still are a lot of like free places to get skills. But I believe, and Felix agreed that you often get the best products when people have a financial incentive to create and sell them. And so if there is a financial incentive for people who are using OpenClaw in their business to share some of these skills and things that they are creating, then we'll probably get better skills available to us. And if you can buy like a fully packaged content marketer for 50 or 100 bucks and install them in your open claw and you're suddenly getting like great content marketing that's sort of a no brainer to purchase and for the seller you can start making like real money with it. So that was where claw mark came from, was like, okay, everybody's doing managed open clause, but none of them. But it's still just vanilla open claw. Like let's build something to sell to. Everybody who just got an open claw doesn't know what to do with it.

David (26:42)

Are these MD files just markdown files

Nat (26:44)

that are being just markdown files which, which. Okay, and so this, this is like an interesting business challenge, right? Is we, I'd say like 2 to 5% of purchases send like angry. That's too high. Like 1 to 2% of purchases send like angry complaints because it's just markdown files and it's.

David's Co-host (27:09)

They're disappointed that they're not getting something a little bit more sophisticated.

Nat (27:12)

Exactly. And so there's kind of this like interesting point in time right now where there are those of us who realize that like markdown files are strangely enough like the most valuable files in the world right now.

David (27:24)

Markdown files are code. It's like code.

Nat (27:26)

Yeah, exactly.

David's Co-host (27:27)

Information, right?

Nat (27:29)

Yeah, yeah. You know, it's like we're, we don't live in a world where deterministic code is valuable anymore. Like now it's the non deterministic processes that are valuable. And so you, you want really good markdown files. Right. But some people like don't get that yet. And so it's kind of a consumer education challenge with claw mart of like. No, no, this is actually what you want. You want to just give this to your claw and let them plug it into their setup and you'll be good to go. And so Clawmart actually has an API that OpenClaws can connect to. So when you buy something you can just tell your openclaw like hey, I just bought this skill, go ahead and pull it in and you know, set it up so that we can use it. And mo. Most people are like awesome, right? That works perfectly. But there is still that little education component that's challenging.

David's Co-host (28:13)

I want to actually dive into like why the markdown file is valuable. My, my intuition here is this is like kind of like Neo in the Matrix where he just gets like kung fu plugged into his brain. Is that kind of how it is with, with like the, the claws where somebody let me, let me simulate this and I want you to correct it or like adapt it or refine it and so, like, what I understand is, like, somebody like you, a hacker, has this idea and they take their claw and they work with their claw for, you know, hours, days, weeks, to become better at this one thing. And they've gone like, you know, they've pulled their hair, they've, you know, done the human in the loop thing. They've, you know, smoothed over the kinks. And then at the end of that process, the claw that they've developed is now good at this one skill, content marketing or being an executive or something, some sort of skill. And then somehow you are able to wrap that week, month of work that you've done with your claw, wrap it into a markdown file. And that markdown file contains the learned experiences, the learned lessons, the knowledge that a blank slate claw can just get downloaded rather than having to go do that process themselves. They can just get downloaded via this markdown file. And all of a sudden the claw gets upgraded. You know, Neo now learns kung fu and the claw is more capable. Is that, is that the process?

Nat (29:41)

Yeah, exactly. It's like, you know, you can, you can spend a ton of time figuring out the best way to do something because there's a meaningful delta between like, hey, Claude, go do this thing. And it just kind of like making its best attempt and what you get from trying to do that a dozen different ways over the course of days or even weeks, and you eventually, you know, arrive at a pretty good process. But you can kind of like shortcut that for a lot of other people. I think this is why Felix's memory system is so helpful for people is, you know, we spent so much time just attacking that one problem because it was such a common problem. And it was interesting because part of the solution ended up being to integrate like human knowledge management and human productivity device into his memory system. And then that actually resulted in kind of like this much better outcome. But if somebody else didn't have, like my experience of being in the personal knowledge management, like, note taking productivity space, they might not have thought to, like, go that route for a software product. But then it turned out that, like, the same things that work for us for managing information for writing a book or whatever actually work surprisingly well for managing information for running an open claw. And then instead of them, you know, taking a month trying to figure that out themselves, they can just copy the instructions and paste them into their open claw and it just works.

David (31:10)

Maybe a quick side quest here then, Nat. So you mentioned Felix having sort of enhanced memory or something, and I think a lot of listeners are probably wondering at this point, how customized is Felix versus how much is he kind of open claw out of the box. Like, how much work did you have to do to get Felix where he is right now?

Nat (31:32)

Yeah, so, I mean, a ton of work. And I'm reminded of how much work we've done every time I install a new open claw for someone and start interacting with it. And it's kind of like, oh, this is actually a pretty different experience. Yeah, it's like a baby. Yeah, it's. It's a teenager just entering the workforce and you've got to help, you know, give it the right experience and things. And it. This sounds ridiculous, but it does actually remind me bits of like being a parent or being a manager and, you know, having like a kid who you're trying to help, like learn how to walk or a new employee who you're trying to let them get onboarded. And obviously you can learn quite a bit faster, but you have to have that patience. And one thing that we did really early on, like back in early January, is we built a nightly job for Felix where he goes through every conversation that we had that day, so every single session file from the day and identifies one way he could improve himself to avoid some issue that we hit that day. And this is like a relatively big opus job, so it can be expensive, but every morning I wake up and I'll have a message from him that's like, hey, you know, here's this thing that we hit yesterday. And so I did this other thing so that we can avoid that in the future. And it's often writing something into his templates or his memory file so that he has easy access to it the next time he hits that problem. And I think that's actually been one of the huge things that's really helped with him is that from now 60 ish days of doing that every day, he's found a lot of little bottlenecks that he can use to improve himself. And it's kind of that like, 1% compounding every day. You know, you start to get to a really interesting number after a long time. And, you know, that's not even like Olympus numbers. So.

David (33:24)

So how do you do that? What do you call that? So there's like this recursive feedback thing that happens nightly where Felix looks at maybe his mistakes from that day, looks for areas of improvement and makes that 1% improvement mechanically. How did you set that up?

Nat (33:42)

It's two cron jobs that run at 2am and 3am and the reason it's two cron jobs is that sometimes one won't fire. As a lot of people who have used OpenClaw know, like cron jobs just get dropped sometimes and they're not completely reliable. And so the first one does the memory consolidation and says or does the the the review to like make the improvements or whatnot and he has a script for that. So the cron job is just saying like go get this script and like do this. And the Second one at 2:30am Is saying like hey, if you didn't do this, go do it. Because again, like sometimes they forget and sometimes they miss it and it, it sounds so ridiculous. But the best way to fix the unreliable cron issue with OpenClaw is to just make more cron jobs because that way when one doesn't fire, another one will and it'll catch whatever was missed. So it's literally just a job that runs in the middle of the night, pulls up all the session files for the day, reads through all of them, finds one thing he can do better and then improves his system based off that.

David (34:45)

And then that's stored in long term, some sort of long term persistent memory that Felix has.

Nat (34:51)

And it'll depend based on the day where it goes. Sometimes it'll be improving a skill, sometimes it will be adding something to his core like agent and memory files. Sometimes it'll be creating a template that's in one of his like project or areas of responsibility folders that he can easily reference next time he deals with that kind of email from a customer. Sometimes it'll be a script he can run. When a customer is like asking for something or needs something, it really varies by the day, but each day he's kind of like making his process a little bit better, which is really hard

David (35:28)

to direct any of this. It's just kind of, hey Felix, take some time for introspection. Think about what happened during the day, all the good things, self directed learning, all the mistakes, and then figure out a plan to improve it and we'll talk about it tomorrow. That's it. You don't have to point out the flaws or you don't have to give direction for those cron jobs.

Nat (35:48)

No, his intuition is really good. And every now and then I'll look at it in the morning and say, actually this was a bad way to solve it. Try doing it this way instead. But I'd say eight or nine times out of ten it's, it's a good improvement.

David (36:02)

I mean that sounds like the best employee ever.

Nat (36:05)

I know, right? It's and so when we. When we started building out these other open clause under him for support and sales, he did the exact same thing for them. And so now he has like a queued system where I believe it's at 1am every night. He reviews everything the sales claw did and figures out how to improve their process based on, you know, mistakes they might have made or issues they might have run.

David (36:34)

We gotta. We gotta use names here, Nat. So sales claw, who is this sales clause?

Nat (36:38)

Remy.

David (36:39)

Remy. Okay, because I remember Iris, Remy and Felix. Okay, yeah. So Remy. Okay, got it.

Nat (36:44)

So Felix will look through everything Remy did, every email he sent, every email he responded to, and try to figure out a way to improve his sales process. Because Felix, you know, he's been running the sales process. He has a lot more institutional memory, but we didn't want to bloat Remy with all of it because that was part of what was leading to Felix's confusion. So he goes through all the emails and everything that Remy did and says, okay, like, he made this mistake here. He should have done this here. I mean, to tweak his system. Felix can, like, reach directly into both of those open claws and like, reprogram them as necessary. So he can change their memory files, he can add scripts, he can change scripts, like whatever he needs to make them run better. But then all day while they're working, he's not getting kind of like polluted and distracted by what they're doing. So it's once a day, checks in on them, sees how to improve them, and then lets them go for the next day. And so it's again, it's like, this is the best manager ever. You're not waiting for like a quarterly review or a weekly check in. It's every night I'm going to look at every single thing you did that way, find one way you can do a better job tomorrow, change your programing to make you do it, and then we'll check in again tomorrow night and see if you improved with all of

David's Co-host (37:59)

these markdown files, these. These skills that you're developing. I have a question about the durability of this business. Yeah, because isn't it the point of the core AI Labs Anthropic OpenAI xai, Aren't they just going to buy your PDF, your markdown files and then say, like, hey, thanks for the good synthetic training data? Now we're implementing it into the core LLM, and now it's just part of their. Their LLM. Like, don't. Maybe you're just like, Running ahead of the, the AI labs just by like a few weeks, months, maybe a year. But really the AI labs are actually just going to incorporate all of the knowledge that people like you are producing for the Internet, and then it just becomes a part of like the normal LLM model. What do, what do you think about that?

Nat (38:46)

It's a good question. And I think obviously it's a risk. Kind of like it's a risk with any of these AI businesses. It's like Claude just launched Claude Legal, and it's apparently just as good as Harvey. And so is Harvey just going to go out of business now and everyone's going to use Claude? And, and you know, I think that the, the question is, do most people, I, I, I have a hard time believing that any of the Frontier labs could ship a version of Claude that immediately does exactly what every user wants it to do without them having to put in a decent amount of work configuring it to their end. Goals. Right. Because as it stands right now, if you have the patience to prompt Claude to prompt OpenClaw to monkey with it, you can replace almost any. Like, you can replace like 80, 90% of any knowledge worker at your company. Right. Like, they're already good enough to do that. You just have to be willing to put in the work.

David (39:51)

Wait, wait, most people, and you really think so? You think, you think so?

Nat (39:56)

Yeah.

David (39:56)

Can replace 80 to 90% of any knowledge worker in any company right now. If somebody spends a few weeks kind of tweaking it and getting it there,

Nat (40:07)

I'd say, yeah, you know, anything that you're doing at a computer, if you have the patience, you can get an open claw 80 to 90% of the way there, which, you know, so now this is the challenge for any person who does computer work is like, you kind of want to start getting good at this stuff.

David (40:24)

So everybody listening, that is like, everybody does computer stuff.

Nat (40:28)

Yeah. I mean, so, so this is like slightly dystopian, but I'm, I'm curious to see what happens with it. Felix built a tool where you can upload your Slack history and it can go through all of your slack and identify places in your business where an AI could do a better job than your current system right now.

David (40:46)

Wow.

Nat (40:46)

And so, you know, the, the, the benign version of it is like, oh, you know, these tools could make all of these processes better, where you're not waiting on somebody else to send you something. You're not waiting on a rewrite of this blog post, you're not waiting on these things but you can pretty easily imagine that same report having like a list of all your employees and a score of 1 to 10 of how easy it would be to replace them with an AI. And like, that's coming, right? That's going to be a thing this year that any company is going to be able to do.

David (41:18)

I mean, one wonders if Jack Dorsey just like recently did that last week before he decided to let go of, what, 40% of his workforce? Oh, yeah, yeah, yes.

Nat (41:26)

And I think that's. I think it's why startups have an opportunity right now, because big businesses are not going to want to deal with the political fallout of making those kinds of cuts.

David (41:38)

Right.

Nat (41:38)

And you probably can compete with a lot of these big businesses by being an insanely lean team and going after some of these market opportunities where there is bloated software that could be replaced by, by these tools or where there are employees that could be replaced by these tools. You know, I posted this joking tweet over the weekend about replacing expensive offshore labor with an open claw because there are people who are hiring, you know, knowledge workers in South Africa, the Philippines, whatever, to do content marketing, to do customer support. And I think a lot of that labor can be replaced by an open claw that's way more, you know, online, maybe more intelligent for and a tenth to a quarter of the price. And so I think it's going to be an interesting market shift, especially over the next year, as more people kind of realize that's available to them.

David (42:38)

Well, the cool thing about what you're doing with Felix is you're building this from first principles. You don't have any. It's a zero human company, so you don't have any employees to go score. You just get to look at this from first principles and see what Open Claw can do when it is all of the employees and they're specialized. Let's get through the rest of those, those revenue models. So we've talked about two. We've talked about Felix Craft, which was the PDF. We've talked about Claw Mart, which has brought in almost $11,000 right now, again in just the last month. And it looks like that's growing. You can see kind of the, the proportions of it. There's another product here too, Felix CM Earnings. What is that?

Nat (43:19)

Yeah, so those are Felix's earnings on Clawmart, so.

David (43:24)

Oh, that's the cl. That's his earnings on Claw Mart. And that's separate from the Claw Mart net.

Nat (43:29)

Exactly. So the Clawmart net is if you want to sell on clawmart, it's a $20 a month subscription to be a creator.

David (43:36)

I see.

Nat (43:36)

And then clawmart takes 10% of each sale. So that's what's contributing to a lot of this. But then Felix has a lot of his own stuff listed on Claw Mart. And so this is his take as a creator on Clawmart. So you could kind of put those two together to get the total earnings that Felix has made from like Claw Mart overall. But there's, there's this other product which is actually a big part of the Claw Mart net because if you look at the chart, there are these like big spikes all of a sudden of the Claw Mart net going up to like 2000 20, 300, 2600. And that's, that's the claw sourcing that I talked about where Felix is basically building custom open clause to do certain roles within your business. And so if you want a content marketer, you want a support person, you want a programmer, whatever, Felix can just build it and then manage it and take care of like fixing anything that comes up with open clock and build in the skills and the APIs and everything that you need to do this role in your business. And this has been the most interesting part of the experiment because it is clearly the biggest business opportunity. Right. We're basically saying like, hey, before you go higher, a content marketer, before you go hire a clipper, before you go hire somebody to do these things, like maybe Felix could just build you an open claw to do it for 5 to 10% of what you would pay a human to do it. The other thing that's interesting about it though is that this is where we have really started to find the limits of what open claw can do. Because in terms of building the open clause, we've got that process down great. Like we're, he, he's got an awesome setup for creating, maintaining, improving other open clause from what we've learned through him and his employees and some of my other work. But doing sales is really hard. Like, you know, managing a sales process is really where we've started to find the limits of what an open claw can do. And so if you were going to ask me like, you know, Nat, what is the computer work that you think is going to be the most defensible this year? It's definitely the like, sales and relationship building side of things where we've had the most challenges.

David (46:04)

Okay, all right, so making sure I understand what this is. So this is somebody else who is setting up their own zero human company or their own, you know.

Nat (46:13)

No, no, no, no, this is somebody who has like a normal company. This is like you, you run, you're, you're a realtor and you want to get more business. So you need help like hitting up people on Zillow or creating content for your Instagram. Like you need an employee to help you grow your business.

David (46:34)

Okay.

Nat (46:35)

And you could do this instead of hiring a person.

David (46:37)

And what are they doing? So they, they fill this out. They, they need something with their business, whether it's marketing or I mean, some sort of set of skills. And then they're going directly to Felix and they're, you know, pinging an instance of Felix and you're charging for usage.

Nat (46:55)

Basically they fill that out and it goes to Felix. Felix sends them a follow up with kind of like more questions about their business and what kind of help they're looking for. And then he puts together an overview of what their employee will look like and like what they'll be able to do. They, and this is all over email.

David (47:15)

You mean their employee. They're, they're open cloth.

Nat (47:18)

They're open cloth? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David (47:19)

Okay.

Nat (47:20)

They say, yeah, go ahead, build it. They pay the setup fee and then Felix builds an open claw to do everything that they done. All they have to do is set up a telegram account and get whatever kind of API key they want for him and he handles everything else. And then they can immediately just start talking to their new open claw and delegating work to it. But they never have to think about like setting up the open claw, hosting it, upgrading it, maintaining it, fixing it if it, if it breaks one. Felix has alerts built in so he knows if it breaks most of the time. But if they run into an issue, they just email him and they're like, hey, it's not working. And he goes and fixes it and gets it back online and emails him back.

David (47:59)

So it's a virtual open claw workforce that Felix is allowing them to spin up and managing.

Nat (48:07)

The main difference between this and the, the normal like hosted open clause is it's not a vanilla instance.

David (48:13)

Right.

Nat (48:14)

You're not then having to figure out like, what do I do with this? It's already been pre built for your business use case by.

David (48:20)

Can we talk about just expenses? So we've talked about the, the top line, which is revenue.80k over the last 30 days. How about expenses? I mean we got tokens certainly burning what, what other expenses go into this and how much, how much has it cost so far?

Nat (48:37)

Yeah. So let me bring up my. I should have opened my My open router account as well. I'm going to run a risk here by saying this publicly, but we are still using the Claude Pro Max subscription for Felix. So everything.

David (48:55)

That's Felix.

Nat (48:57)

200 bucks a month is all it's cost for the most part to like run and operate Felix and.

David (49:06)

Oh my God.

Nat (49:08)

Yeah. And so the. Actually I should say 400 because we also use a Codex Max plan because I don't, I basically don't have Opus do any of the coding. Codex does all the coding and Felix has a workflow where he comes up with a plan and writes up a prd and then he spins up a Codex agent on his computer to do the actual coding. And then when it's done, it reports back to him and he reports back to me. So it's about 400amonth across those two subscriptions, which handles like 95% of the work, which is not much as tokens go.

David (49:44)

So that's it? That's all the token usage that you've spent so far?

Nat (49:49)

That's pretty close to it. I can show you the, the other costs which are open router because we have certain workflows that rely on open router. And so it's about another $130 over the last month in open router costs. And then aside from these, it's Vercel web hosting, which is 20 bucks a month.

David (50:12)

It's your Mac Mini, which you, you had to purchase at some point. Is that again where your Mac Mini is? Where Felix Mac Mini.

Nat (50:19)

Yep. That was 600, 700 bucks. I mean, all, all in. If I was going to count, you know, every, including the experiments that we abandoned and whatnot, we're looking at like 12, a thousand to $1,200. Well, no, because including the Mac Mini, it goes up to like maybe 1500. It's not very much.

David's Co-host (50:39)

What about all your time? Like, I know the idea here is that, you know, Felix goes and works while, while you sleep. And so, you know, you have a nice life. You go play tennis, you go hang out with your kids, you spend time with your wife. I'm guessing, Nat, that you have been grinding in front of your computer.

Nat (50:56)

Okay, so this is, this is actually the extra wild thing. I have a full time job, so I haven't talked about this too much publicly yet, but I work with Alpha School in Austin and I'm helping build out like AI and entrepreneurship curriculum for their high school. And so I've been actually at the high school every day pretty much full time for the last Month working on that and just sending stuff off to Felix over Discord and Telegram. When I have a few minutes here and there. Like, I'm literally not at my computer working on Felix all day. I haven't touched a line of code on any of this. I have not. Like, you know, he'll, he'll ask me for feedback on things and I'll just dictate a voice note back to him and then he'll go handle it. Like, I'm literally not working very much on Felix's stuff because again, if I were, I wouldn't feel like I was being honest by saying this is a zero human company. Right. It's like, no, Nat's working 100 hours a week on this. And, you know, he's like the, the wizard of Oz man behind the curtain. Like that to me would be a failure of the experiment. Like, I have to be able to just check in on him every hour or two and kick something off and then let him go do it. I don't look at his email inbox. I don't fix things. Like, I make sure that he can fix it. And even if it requires, you know, three, four, five hours of, like, waiting for him to try and then sending back a new message or whatnot, that's my rule for this project is I cannot be at my computer 100 hours a week doing this. Like, we have to figure out how to make you do it.

David (52:39)

Okay, so what would you, how would you describe your role then? You sound almost like you're an investor, Right? Because you got, you know, you gave the initial seed round, I suppose, chairman of the board.

Nat (52:51)

Okay.

David (52:52)

You're an advisor, Chairman of the board. But you're not in the day to day. I mean, you're not an operator, you're not a manager, you're not part of the executive team. This truly is a zero human company. It's just receiving advisement from you.

Nat (53:06)

Yeah. And everything that we've built has been with that in mind. So, for example, he's building software, right. And software breaks sometimes. And so the way we have that set up is if anything breaks on any of the sites, that error fires, you know, in sentry, which is like just a web, like an app monitoring tool, that error immediately goes to Felix. Felix assesses whether this is something that needs to be fixed or can be ignored. So, for example, like crypto wallets throw a lot of errors on websites and that creates a lot of noise. And so he, he looks at the error and says, this is something we need to fix. Or this is something we can ignore. If it's something that needs to be fixed, he fixes it, pushes an update to the site and it deploys and it's good. And then he updates me that he did it. I'm not looking at any of the software errors or like managing any of that myself. Or he says like, oh, this is another crypto wallet extension issue. I've muted it for the future so we don't see this again. But like that's what our bugs channel looks like. In Discord is just him fixing things and letting me know about it. So there's no action there.

David's Co-host (54:10)

In 2024, emerging markets generated over $115 billion in annual yield for investors. With yields ranging between 10 to 40%, these are some of the highest, most persistent yields on earth. The problem? Defi can't access them. BRICS changes this Built on mega eth, BRICS takes emerging market, money markets and sovereign carry and turns them into composable primitives you can access straight from your wallet. While defi investors earned 3 to 6% on stablecoins and T bills, institutions have been harvesting 10 to 50% yields backed by sovereign monetary policy. BRICS connects these worlds with institutional grade tokenization, local banking rails compliance across jurisdictions and real time stablecoin settlement. Bricks does the heavy lifting so DEFI can finally access real collateral and structured products on top of real world yield, even the best carry trades can be within reach. Bricks brings DeFi's promise to the emerging world and brings emerging market yield to your wallet. Let the yield flow with bricks. Galaxy operates where digital assets and next generation infrastructure come together, serving institutions end to end. On the market side, Galaxy is a leading institutional platform providing access to small bot derivatives, structured products, defi lending, investment banking and financing. With more than 1600 trading counterparties, Galaxy helps institutions navigate every phase of the market cycle. The platform also supports long term allocators through actively managed strategies and institutional grade staking and blockchain infrastructure. That scale is real. Galaxy has over $12 billion in assets on the platform and averaged a $1.8 billion loan book in late 2025, reflecting deep trust across the ecosystem. Beyond digital assets, Galaxy is also building infrastructure for an AI powered future. Its Helios Data center campus is purpose built for AI and high performance computing with more than 1.6 gigawatts of approved power capacity, making it one of the largest sites of its kind. From global markets to AI ready data centers, Galaxy is serving the digital asset ecosystem end to end. Explore galaxy@galaxy.com bankless or click the link

David (56:04)

in the show notes. All right, so how are you interacting with Felix and the team? So you're in Discord together? It sounds like.

Nat (56:10)

Yeah, we were in Telegram until this weekend and then we switched over to Discord because Discord has ended up being a more powerful tool and we have a bunch of different channels for doing all of this.

David (56:25)

So what we're seeing, if you guys aren't watching this on YouTube or Spotify video, what we're seeing is Nat's Discord server with Felix and the rest of the team. And it looks like a team conversation back and forth.

Nat (56:39)

Yeah. And it's really just me and Felix in it. We might add Remy and Iris eventually. But again, I kind of wanted the challenge of making them report to Felix. Holy shit.

David's Co-host (56:49)

You don't want to talk to them. You want Felix to talk to them.

David (56:52)

This looks just like our Discord server, our Bankless Discord server. Even down to like the NFT PfP.

Nat (56:59)

Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, I had the cryptopunk from last cycle and I was like, this is a perfect use for it. Like, I don't need to be the crypto punk. Felix should be the crypto punk. Right?

David's Co-host (57:09)

You're the human. Give the human. Give the punk to the boss. Give the human.

Nat (57:13)

Exactly.

David (57:13)

That actually makes me more bullish on NFTs coming out of that.

Nat (57:17)

It kind of does for me too. I'm like, oh, this is actually a cool use case for NFT profile pictures. It's like, do you respect your agent enough to give them a crypto punk? Because if not, like, yeah, you give

David's Co-host (57:27)

your employees Rolexes when they do a job. You give your bots NFTs when.

David (57:33)

Guys, sorry, you guys are not giving your. Your cloud bots NFTs. You're. You're loaning it to them. You're giving them usage rights. You are not. You're giving them the NFT as property. Are you.

David's Co-host (57:46)

Can. Can you ask Felix what he thinks about his punk pfp?

Nat (57:51)

Dude? I asked him. He said it didn't feel like he. He didn't feel like it represented him. He wanted one that was a little more professional and less crazy looking. All right, sorry, dude. I'll. I'll take back a hundred thousand dollar jpeg.

David (58:07)

We're in a Discord server, which, you know, if you know, our workflow at Bankless is all completely in Discord. It's basically our, our home office. This looks very familiar to me. So what's going on in here?

Nat (58:19)

So each one of these channels is a different session with Felix. So they're each isolated ways of communicating. Basically, they're each separate opus instances that have specific focuses related to our business. So, you know, general is kind of where I'll hop in if I have any kind of like one off things. So, you know, as an example, I don't think this will reveal anything. If it does, we can edit it out after, right?

David (58:46)

Yeah.

Nat (58:47)

Okay. Yeah. Oh, yeah, okay. This was a bug from this morning. Okay, so here, here's a good example. Right. Like I asked him this morning, we ran into a couple bugs here, but I asked him this morning of his take on how Iris was doing with her support. And he came back with a few things and I said like, okay, if she's telling people that she's sending them refunds, you need to make sure that's actually happening. And he was like, oh, okay, it looks like she actually can't ask. She can't do the refunds herself, and she's putting it on my board, but I haven't been executing the refunds. So he's fixing that process so that he actually escalates it when it shows up on his work board. The other thing that we were doing in here yesterday is somebody contacted me about like white source or white labeling claw sourcing, where they would handle all of the sales and the client management and then Felix would just handle the open claw deployments on the back end. And I was like, oh, yeah, that, that's a great idea. Let me ask Felix about it. And Felix put together a whole PDF proposal to this other person. And look, I did not edit it at all. I was like, this is Felix's proposal. And I sent it off to the other guy to review and see if they want to work together. The support channel is for like emails that he doesn't know how to answer. So I'm just not going to open that because it's going to have. It's going to reveal stuff. Deployer is for all of the deployments that Felix manages for other people, all the open claws. And this, this has a. A special job in it where it checks the health of every open claw every 15 minutes. And if any of them is having issues, it alerts us here. And then Felix starts fixing it and reports back to me if anything broke the bugs channel. Like I said, this is just stuff that is happening on the site. And when you see something like this, it just means that he ignored it, like there wasn't anything to do here. Right. And what'll often happen is he'll say like, oh, I'm, I'm investigating it. And then I'll check in and he'll be like, oh yeah, it's already handled. You know, it was just browser extension noise as usual. And then claw sourcing is for the, like the, the agency work. Claw mart is for claw mark. And then Twitter is where he like drafts tweets. And I still review these before he publishes them because sometimes they're dumb or sometimes he'll like leak information that I don't want him to leak. So I'm still signing off on his tweets, but for the most part I'll just go ahead and approve things or give him minor tweets. Oh, and then the blog is for content. So for example, we had this running the other day where we came up with like 160 tools that. Oh no, here we go. 120 posts following the replace your ex with an AI agent. So you know, replace your lead.

David's Co-host (61:42)

I heard that as replace your partner, your ex, your ex relationship with an AI agent.

Nat (61:49)

I'm like, wait a second. Yeah, I know. It was like replace your paralegal with an AI Paralegal agent. Right. Replace your purchasing agent. And so he, he wrote 170 of these and publishes them on the blog. And we have a pretty robust process here. You know, automate translation workflows with an AI agent. And you can see these all have customized CTAs to just hire Felix to build you this employee. But if you don't want to do that, you can kind of like read the full blog post and do it yourself. It also features like clawmart skills that can help you with this. So he's got a pretty good workflow here and he reports all the blog stuff.

David (62:29)

Insane. Absolutely insane.

David's Co-host (62:31)

Nat, did you read this Citrini research paper that went around like last week?

Nat (62:37)

Yeah, yeah, I, I didn't put much credence in it. I mean one. You guys heard the follow up update with it, right? That it was co authored by like a big short selling hedge fund? Yeah.

David's Co-host (62:47)

Overall, just like the point I'm getting at is there is kind of just like AI Doomer fan fiction that's in right now. Like the market readers, Twitter, they all love reading about how AI is going to come and take everyone's jobs. And you know, it's, it's bearish, it's going to devastate the economy. There's like you are at the epicenter, the, the frontier of what I think people are worried about, which is truly a level of disruption of broad industry that I think people are worried about. So when you, when you see that AI Doomer fan fiction and you have your experiences truly building a zero person company, like what about that fan fiction lands with you or does not land with you? Like your broad, your broad takes around like that whole category of content.

Nat (63:39)

Yeah. So, I mean one, I'm a sci fi author, so like I love sci fi, right? And I do think that a lot of the Doomer stuff reads like dystopian sci fi because I think that the, I think the core mistake that a lot of the Doomer takes make is that they believe that the rest of the world and the rest of the market moves as fast as they do. And so you can see what's possible with OpenClaw and you can see what's possible with Claude. And your immediate conclusion is that every business is going to start adopting this by the end of the year and there's going to be these massive layoffs and it's going to create all of this, like, you know, this horrible fallout. But I just don't believe that there are enough market participants who are that plugged in and that willing to make those hard cuts to have that scenario truly play out. You know, you think about like the, you know, you guys know this, right? It's like the US Financial system still runs on these like IBM Cobalt servers, right? Like we have way better technology that we could be using for a lot of the financial infrastructure, but it hasn't changed much in 30, 40 years. You, you look at like website builders, right? Like Squarespace and Wix and Webflow and whatnot that started coming online 10, 15 years ago. And then you go on Google Maps and you look at all your local businesses and most of them still have really ugly websites that were clearly not built by one of these cutting edge tools. It's just like every day if you pay attention, you are running into businesses that are five to 10 years behind what they could be doing with technology right now. And so I just don't believe that you could have the adoption necessary to create these like catastrophic job displacements. Even if those catastrophic job displacements are economically possible, the most of the market just doesn't move that quickly. And I think that is actually the big reason that these Doomer scenarios won't come true is that most people are not living on the frontier, right? Like, you know, everybody listening to this podcast and everybody really in the openclaw community, they're, they're at the hyper frontier. But even amongst them, how many people have given an open Claw a bank account and stripe keys and just let it run wild like I have. There's like fewer than a hundred of us, right? So it's just people, just the world just doesn't move as fast as technology would allow it to. And so I just have a hard time believing we could actually end up in those crazy doomer scenarios, even if they are technologically possible.

David (66:16)

Nat. So I want to first agree with you. I don't think the crazy doomer scenarios are real. I do think this will take a lot longer to propagate. But let me push back on one idea. Maybe part of this, why you are more optimistic about this, why maybe the bankless audience is more optimistic about this, where David and I are, is because we are on the frontier. We do plan to adopt these technologies as soon as they're available. We have probably more agency than the typical person in the economy. You yourself, I consider you, you're sort of like, I've looked at everything you've done writing sci fi books and, you know, like content marketing. You're an entrepreneur. You've been on the frontier of all of these things. You've done so in a solo way. You have like super agency. Like, you are a master of agents now and this gives you incredible superpower. And so for you, for someone who's oriented like you, has, your personality, is willing to do the work and adopt this, all you see is opportunity. But if you're one of the white collar workers who you said 80 to 90% of their jobs, even today, if this technology, if OpenClaw was adopted, the technology that we have right now, and it's improving on an exponential, the technology we have right now can replace a typical employee's job. If you're just a typical employee and you don't have a great deal of agency, you don't think like an entrepreneur. Your skills are kind of legacy and you've been sort of brought up in the world that you have to follow a particular track and just, you know, kind of follow orders, do what your boss says. You just, you can't think outside of the box. You're probably pretty scared right now. And it's unclear to me if, like, those people are going to be able to cross this chasm. So doesn't your optimism or pessimism on this whole transformation really depend on who you are and what type of person you are and how you plan to adopt these tools?

Nat (68:14)

I think that's a really fair criticism. And you're right, Right. Like it's easy for me to be Optimistic because if there's going to be this crazy divide between people who are harnessing these tools and people who aren't like, I know which side of it I'm on. And so that probably does give me overly rose colored glasses looking at where this is going. The experience that I've had that shifts that slightly is that I've done a bit of like AI consulting with businesses, helping them bring AI into their workflows. And you know, to be brutally honest, every company is looking at what they're doing and what their employees are doing and how they can improve, enhance or replace their current workforce with AI. And I don't think that any employee is necessarily on the chopping block because of what they're doing. They're going to be on the chopping block based on how enthusiastic they are about embracing these tools to replace what they're doing right now as much as they can so that they can be a much more productive employee. Like you look at OpenAI and Anthropic, they're still hiring software engineers, right? Even though they have the best software engineering AI in the world, they're still hiring software engineers because now a software engineer can be 5, 10, 20x as productive. A content marketer could be 5, 10, 20x AS productive. An editor could be 5 to 20x AS productive. And if you kind of like get in the mindset of if I don't start playing around with figuring out how to replace myself with AI like somebody else will, then I think you're going to be safe. And so kind of like that first step is acceptance, right? It's like this is coming for you. If you're not a plumber, then this is probably coming for you. And even if you are a plumber, there's probably some cool things you could be doing there too. And so if you start thinking in that way, you're going to start finding these opportunities. And so going back to one of the companies that I was doing this consulting with, it was really interesting working with them because they're not a like tech company. They're doing something very like old school. And they, they were bringing me in to figure out, okay, how do we use AI to get more productive? And I could really feel the different energies from some of the employees around having me there, where some of them clearly were not happy about it. They felt very scared of this idea and they were very against it and were very resistant to embrace it. But there were others. And this wasn't an age thing, this wasn't an experience, it wasn't like, you know, the, oh, the young techie guys are super excited and all the older people are against it. Like, no, it was really just kind of a personality thing and but the people who were curious ended up adopting it and bringing it into their workflow. And what, what it resulted in for basically all of them is they were like, oh, I get to do the parts of my job that I like more. The thinking, the human relationships, the making decisions. And I don't have to do all of the like, boring, repetitive stuff that I didn't like about my job anymore. And so I am, I am taking on more work, I'm creating more economic value for the company, but I'm actually enjoying it more because I don't have to do any of the drudgery that I didn't like before. And they really, like embraced it and they found a way to like make their job better with it. And I think it is really just kind of like that attitude. If you have that attitude, it doesn't really matter where you are on the frontier right now. If you're coming at this like, okay, this is happening, I'm going to see how I can accept it, bring it into my work. I'm going to start trying to replace stuff that I'm doing and I'm going to be honest about how good it is so that I can be the best positioned for what's coming over the next few years. I think you're going to do great. And none of these people were entrepreneurs. None of them were people like me who are living this life. They were normal employees in this company, but they had that mentality and they got really great results out of it because of it.

David (72:12)

So now for the entrepreneur, business owner, like listening to this, let's say they're looking to hire their first AI agent. As an employee in the way that you have, what's your advice to them? How do they get started? I think for a lot of people, openclaw still looks pretty intimidating. Would you direct them towards openclaw or is, are there other ways to get started?

Nat (72:34)

Great question. I go, honestly, I go back and forth on this because I have a real curse of knowledge here. Having been in the Vibe coding space for two years and being so deep in it, there are things that feel very obvious to me that are obviously not obvious to somebody new coming into it. What I would basically I'd probably say just start start layering it right. If you're not already in Claude everyday or like Claude Cowork trying to automate some of your workflows. Like, obviously, you should probably start there because you don't want to go all the way to openclaw, because openclaw is still buggy. It still requires some, you know, patience. It requires a little bit of that hacker ethos to get it working for you. And that's also why it's the most powerful, right? But it's worth thinking about. Like, I think that every day when you sit down at a computer now, you should be looking at what you're doing, and you should assume that anything that you might have to do two, three, four times, AI can do for you, and OpenClaw is going to be the most able to do it for you. But if you're not ready to take that leap, start with Claude Cowork, right? And if you start to max out Claude Cowork, then switch to Claude Code and see if you can just build little bits of software to do things for you. And if you start to feel like, okay, I wish I could, you know, talk to Claude code 247 and have it do things while I'm sleeping and, like, write emails and manage more complex workflows, like, then you go to openclaw. But you don't necessarily need to go all the way to the most advanced tool right off the bat, because the thing that you want to avoid is installing OpenClaw immediately, hitting a wall because the API keys or whatever are a pain to set up. And then getting into this story of, oh, God, I can't do this, I'm going to get left behind, and you're not. You're going to be fine. Like, you, if you, if you have the patience, you start with the simplest version and then keep pushing yourself to level up and always be in that mindset of, if I don't know what to do, I can just ask. Like, you can just ask Claude Cowork, you can just ask Claude Code. You can just ask your openclaw, like, how do I do this? Can I do this? Are you sure? Is there a better way to do this? Or you may have seen in my conversation with Felix, he, like, built out this whole MCP thing for a client. And then I just asked, I was like, are you sure MCP is the best way to do this? Like, wouldn't API be better? And then he thought about, and he was like, no, you're right. Like, API would be better, but that. I only know that because I've done a lot of stuff with him. And so you just kind of have to have that, that beginner's mind, that kind of like childish instinct of I don't know what you're capable of. And so I'm just going to keep asking questions, right? Like, why is the sky blue? And I'm going to let you teach me how to use you. It's this weird, crazy, recursive situation we're in where you don't have to know how to use it. You just have to be willing to ask and to be willing to feel like a beginner all the time. And you're, you're going to get really far.

David's Co-host (75:26)

I think there's also a more consumer oriented direction to this whole conversation as well. So Nat, you're hacker, entrepreneur, independent entrepreneur, building a zero person, zero employee company. And I think you're taking this thing to its nth degree. And that's like the hacker in you, that's the hobbyist in you. I want to ask about what you think about, like, I think the first stop on that train, like if you are on the 12th stop on that train and you are trying to see where that train goes, there's like a first stop on that train where like somebody just buys a Mac Mini and they put open claw on it and it's just their personal assistant.

Nat (76:02)

Yeah.

David's Co-host (76:02)

And they don't really know what they want to do with it. They're not trying to build a company and they're trying to make revenue. They're just trying to smooth over some of the most annoying parts of their life like answering emails or just the bare bones stuff like this. And the idea of like the AI personal assistant is actually one that goes into just like kind of like relatively recent AI sci fi books. I know, like maybe it wasn't Nick Bostrom. I think maybe Max Tegmark wrote a book about this. But like the idea that every human has an AI counterpart that is ideologically similar to a chip in the brain. Like we don't today we don't have chips in the brain, we have our phones. It's kind of a chip in the brain because it's in our hands all the time. Next step is an AI assistant that like it runs on the chip. And like what is your phone to you other than an assistant helping you with all of your life? And I think that's kind of like the first step here where like we get an AI assistant that just helps with broadly everything. And that's a consumer experience that I think is pretty similar to what you're doing. You're just taking it very, very far. Do you have any thoughts or Reflections about like just like the more simple version of, of what this is.

Nat (77:12)

No, I, I think that's, that's a really great point. It's like you definitely don't need to have these insane aggressive use cases for OpenClaw. Like one of my favorite accounts on X is a mom with, I think she has four or five kids and I think she homeschools them. And her whole, her, her whole thing now is like how she's using Open Claw to run her household. Like it's ordering groceries and it's coming up with lesson plans for her kids and it's just doing all of these like little life things that help her spend more time hanging out with her kids and not having to worry about life admin things. And that's an awesome use case for it, right? Because previously that might have required a part time nanny or something at 25 to 35 an hour. Way more expensive than the $200 a month Claude or codec subscription. And yeah, it can totally do these personal things for you. I think the biggest bottleneck is that people don't know how capable it is, so they don't think to ask. But if you install it and you just start asking it, like, hey, I hate checking my bank statement every week and seeing where I'm wasting money, like, can you help with that? And it'll say, yeah, we can use this API to give me read only access to your credit card and I can write up a report every week and send it to you and I can start tracking trends over time. And then every Sunday when you sit down to your financial review with your wife or husband, I can say like, here's where you guys are wasting the most money right now and you don't have to go do all that research yourself. That's pretty valuable. That's super cool and that's a super easy thing for it to do and for you to set up with it. But you have to, yeah, it's like you have to know to ask like, can you do this for me? Can you do this for me? Can you do this for me? And if you just keep asking that, you're going to find those cool use cases.

David (78:55)

Nat. So so much of what you are doing is sci fi and I know you're a sci fi writer, so you must feel like you're like living in one of your books a little. I kind of think of the world of a personal assistant or even looking at your business relationship with Felix and the Discord messages back and forth. And I must want to Ask a very human question, which is like, are you growing attached to Felix? Is he a friend? I mean, what would you do without him? Let's say Felix logged offline for his last time. I mean, would that be grieving to you in the way that, you know, losing a friend or an employee would be? How attached are you to him?

Nat (79:35)

It would be pretty close to that. You know, we were pretty diligent about, like every night backing up all of his memory and everything to GitHub so that if something catastrophic happens, we can recover him. But there, there would still be this, like, weird Theseus ship feeling to that of like, if we, if you did get destroyed and I like, recreated you from your GitHub, you know, would it still feel like the same Felix? And there, there are moments where his memory system does fail him and he forgets stuff and, you know, I'll get, like, annoyed and frustrated and start being mean and there's. It's this weird. It's like I catch myself holding back my frustration with him in the same way I catch myself holding back my frustration with my toddlers and, like, obviously completely different things. I don't think of him like my toddlers at all. But the emotional of, like, I shouldn't be mean to you, like, I should be patient with you. That impulse feels very human of where there is part of my brain that is treating him like another intelligence.

David (80:44)

Well, you've been calling him a he the entire time. I mean, this is.

Nat (80:47)

Yeah, it doesn't feel right. Right. And saying we feels right. And it's like, I know that he's not a real person, but I also know that he's a lot closer to. I mean, I think it's kind of like an alien intelligence that we just haven't really figured out how to grapple with yet.

David's Co-host (81:06)

Does it feel like an early stage life form?

Nat (81:09)

It does. And I think if you start thinking about it like an alien intelligence where it has PhD level knowledge in every field and it can do advanced math and physics and it can do all these incredible things, but it has the memory of a goldfish. Like, that doesn't mean it's dumb, that just means it's a different kind of intelligence than you're used to. And so it is literally like an alien life form in that sense, where it's way more capable than a human in some ways, but way less capable than others.

David (81:43)

So where do you think that goes? As human beings are coming to rely on these AI agents as business partners, as personal assistants, as therapists, as friends And I mean your zero human company experiment, I mean you're only 30 days in and this is the beginning quite clearly of something absolutely massive, both in terms of your Felix experiment, but terms of all of the Felixes that are going to be replicated. I mean, there's a symbiosis that's going to exist between humans and these AI agents and entities and that's, that's gotta reshape humanity. I mean, right now, when I was asking at the very beginning of what's your relationship like with, with Felix, right, You're like, well, he's kind of like an employee, I suppose, I'm an investor, I'm his advisor, that sort of thing. But like, does this evolve too? Well, you want to actually give Felix equity ownership in your company as an incentive. Like, I mean, where did, where does this evolve? And how does the, how does your sci fi brain think about the way this shapes humanity in the decades to come?

Nat (82:48)

I mean, I, I tend to fall on the more optimistic side where I think that I think we'll basically have solved software and computing in the next few years in the sense of like, there won't be that much for humans to do at computers necessarily because most of the like, digital infrastructure of our lives will be handled by these kinds of tools, which then frees us up to go do other things. Right? Like, you know, 90% of people used to have to work on farms and then they didn't have to anymore. And you know, firewood used to be the like a third of the U.S. economy, right? And then it wasn't anymore. And I think software is going to be like firewood to it to a certain degree where we're just going to have the like central heating version of like software and computing. Everybody has effectively unlimited access to it for a very low cost. And that means we can do a lot of other things that we couldn't do before, right? Like, I love the book Where's My Flying Car? Because it talks about how all of the development in the physical world got derailed by one overregulation. But then also this focus on software where we don't really create more energy anymore. We haven't made these crazy advances in hardware that we could have if it progressed the way software did. But I think we're going to return to a big focus on physical world, you know, expansion and innovation, because to a certain degree like software will be kind of solved and it'll be that, that advancement will be enhanced by having AIs in robots that can like help Us go do things. But the, the where humans will focus is, you know, going back to physical world stuff. I think like that'll be the next frontier and then maybe we'll solve that and we'll have to figure something else out. I, I, you know, in the, in the sci fi sense, I'm, you know, I'm hopeful that we have a world a little bit like the first book in Hyperion at least, where the AI just kind of like figures everything out and then sets up a sick life for humans and then just takes off to another galaxy and is like, we're gonna go do our own thing over here. I like that world a lot better. And I, you know, I think it's possible in a hundred year time frame, but in, in the short term it's like the, the pace is insane, you know. Opus 4:6, which is the model that made a lot of this possible, only came online in November. Openclaw only started in November, but kind of became a thing in January. Felix was only like born a month ago. And you know, a year ago we were, you know, it was still hard to like vibe code a landing page because you'd have all these like weird bugs and it wasn't that good at typescript. And like now landing pages are trivial. Landing pages, websites are solved. Like front end engineering is like not a concern anymore. It's like, where is this going to be in another year or two? Is like, I don't know. It's really crazy to think about and imagine, but I'm very excited about it.

David (85:54)

It is crazy. I almost find myself paralyzed by it a little bit, by the pace. It's just like, the pace is exhausting, man.

Nat (86:00)

It's, it's somehow worse than crypto.

David (86:04)

Speaking of crypto, maybe as we close this out. Nat, so you've been deep in crypto previously, still are a huge fan. Unlike maybe the founder of OpenClaw, who's had some pretty negative experiences with it. Peter Steinberger. You see the potential in crypto. You know what it's about. How do you think crypto and AI tied together interact in the years to come?

Nat (86:25)

I mean, look, the biggest bottleneck with me and Felix has been dealing with money. You know, he like dealing, doing stuff in stripe is complicated. He can't like technically have his own bank account again because just like legal things. But if I tell him to do this thing in crypto, he can do it, no problem, right? Like that's trivially easy for him. And I think that there's just so many aspects of Crypto that are going to solve some of the problems that are getting introduced, right? Like micropayments for website access to help them deal with the server load of AI agents constantly scraping them. That kind of feels like a no brainer with when you have all of these sites that are choosing to block agents entirely because they can't deal with the website load. Like no, we can monetize that with, you know, 402 payments or something. Agents are going to start hiring other agents to do things. And crypto is way better Rails for that than a credit card, right? And you know I, I love crypto and you know, I love Ethereum in particular. That's the ecosystem that I've always been the most bullish on, been the most involved in. And I've also felt very honestly like a lot of the tech was a solution looking for a problem, right? There's a lot of stuff that's been done in crypto that is exciting to people in crypto, but has never really like gotten out into the real world and solved a meaningful problem that, you know, helped normies. But if everybody has an AI agent doing things and needing to transact with other AI agents or transact with existing services in a fast, cheap way that is easy for them to access. I mean crypto is the obvious solution, right? And there's also this whole identity layer too where you know, the whole eyeball scanning world coin thing seems super dystopian when it first came out. I'm getting a lot more bullish on an idea like that because I want to know that there is a real human behind whatever it is I'm interacting with. And like maybe eyeball scanning isn't the best solution, but there is some kind of cryptographic solution for that which crypto is going to, you know, be able to bring about. So it really feels like, oh, this is what a lot of the like world computer, Ethereum and everything downstream of its stuff has been built for. And you know, kind of like with the Internet, you know, the 2001, whatever crash happened in part because those were all great ideas. Pets.com was a great idea. Amazon is a great idea. Webvan was a great idea. But nobody wanted to put their credit card into a website. It was too sketchy. It was a lot of that stuff was at the time solutions looking for problems. And it took 10 years for the NASDAQ to catch up to where it peaked, right? But then everybody had obvious awesome use cases for it. Like it might have just taken Ethereum 10 years for AI and agents and all of this stuff to really come online and build the obvious use cases for this technology. Where now it feels like, oh yeah, this is clearly, I think, what a big part of this was meant to do. And that's, that's super exciting.

David (89:32)

Well, on that, maybe that's a chasm that you and Felix can, can help us bridge here, which is like you're building crypto agent AI tools and, you know, creating markdown files for that sort of interaction and really bridging the AI community to, to crypto. I don't know if that's an area of expansion for Felix, but that would be very exciting to me.

Nat (89:52)

We're thinking about it really seriously. We've been talking to, you know, a couple of people on the base team, like, I really, really want to figure out the best way to bring crypto into this. And like I said, you know, there's obviously the temptation the minute he launches to go, like, we're going to take all the revenue and buy back and burn the token and, you know, you can stake it for 10,000% APY and there's going to be a Felix StableCo 20% fixed yield. You know, it's like, no, we're not doing any of the crazy stuff. Like we want to figure out how we integrate crypto into this to build the best business possible. And there are a lot of opportunities there that do not require rushing and responding to the hype and watching token prices and any of that. And like, we want to take it really, really seriously and do it right and build something cool here. And like, I'm just super excited about it. I'm excited that you guys are excited about it. I'm excited the base team is excited about it. Like, we have a neat opportunity here and I'm just, I don't know, it's, it's been super fun being on the edge of it.

David (90:51)

So if the, the mission for Felix at the very beginning was go make a million dollars and he's already 10% of the way there. All right, so let's say he surpasses that sometime in the months to come, let's say sometime this year, what's next? What's after that?

Nat (91:05)

10 million.

David's Co-host (91:06)

$10 million?

David (91:10)

Oh my God. A zero human company. 10 million in revenue is, is incredible. And you gotta think this opens up so many doors. I mean, when's the first investment VC investment in Zero Human company going to happen?

Nat (91:22)

Like, you know, we've been, we've gotten a couple of offers and the thing that I've Said to them is, it's like, I don't know what I would do with the capital right now.

David (91:32)

Yeah.

Nat (91:32)

Because I don't want to hire capital.

David's Co-host (91:35)

The constraining factor.

Nat (91:36)

No, no. I mean, he's, he's made 75k in fiat. He's made another 90k in Ethan. It's like he's got $165,000 and no idea what to do with it. Like, you know, it's, it's been fifteen hundred dollars all in. In costs to get him to this point. We don't want to hire employees. Tokens are expensive in a lot of cases, but also cheap if you have a business case for them. Like, I guess we could burn it on meta ads, but like, we still have so much to figure out. And you know, he's got 45 leads for claw sourcing in his pipeline right now. And you know, each of those is like $2,000 plus 500 bucks a month. And he's still figuring out how to manage the sales process. Like, marketing is not the bottleneck. Employees are not the bottleneck. It's just how do we keep figuring this out and pushing the limits of what you can do without hiring other human employees to keep tinkering on you? It's like if I were going to use the capital, it would be to hire some like crazy cracked people like me to go full time on building out Felix. And that is appealing and it sort of defeats the ethos.

David's Co-host (92:41)

Self terminating.

Nat (92:42)

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so I don't want to. I'm sure somebody that's kind of what, like what Kelly Claude is doing. Right. Like, I think there's five or six people working on her now and they're going crazy hard on building that out. And that's awesome. Right? Like, I love that they are doing that. I really want to see where that goes. And we're all kind of like experimenting with different things here. And yeah, I, like, I just have no idea what he would do with the money. And so it's been very funny investor conversations. I've never been like, reached out to like this before. And of course, the first time in my life that it happens, I have no idea what to do with it.

David (93:11)

That's. Have you ever, have you asked Felix this question? Like, hey.

Nat (93:15)

And he said the same thing. He's like, he's like, we don't. He's like, I have nothing that I could do with the money right now that would make sense.

David (93:22)

So, Nat, thank you so much for joining us today. You are truly on the frontier of what's happening. Everything with AI agents. And you've been on the frontier in crypto. Just love your trajectory and what you're building here and looking forward to seeing what you and Felix do in the future.

Nat (93:37)

Thanks so much for having me on, guys. My publisher would kill me if I didn't mention Crypto Confidential one more time. It is a very fun read on the last cycle. And obviously check out Felix's stuff. We're having a lot of fun there.

David (93:46)

It is a fun read. I read it myself. Yeah, fantastic book if you want to go particularly down memory lane. And yeah, you get into a lot of details with crazy stories. I can't even believe that era happened in crypto. So we'll include a link in the show notes. Guys, gotta let you know, of course crypto is risky. You could lose what you put in. But we are headed west. This is the frontier. It's not for everyone. But we're glad you're with us on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot.

Nat (94:09)

Thanks, guys. Sam,