Bankless Podcast Summary

Episode Title: Tokenized Stocks: The $100 Trillion Onchain Shift | Ondo Finance Ian De Bode & Nathan Allman
Date: September 11, 2025
Guests: Nathan Allman (Founder & CEO, Ondo Finance), Ian De Bode (Chief Strategy Officer, Ondo Finance)
Hosts: Ryan Sean Adams, David Hoffman

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the transformation of financial markets through the tokenization of real-world assets (RWAs), especially equities and stocks, and the broader implications for both traditional finance (TradFi) and decentralized finance (DeFi). Bankless hosts Ryan and David are joined by Ondo Finance executives Nathan Allman and Ian De Bode. The discussion covers the rise of tokenized treasuries, the nuances of “wrapper” vs. “native” tokenization, regulatory hurdles, liquidity models, permissionless assets, and the future structure of capital markets.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Wrapped vs. Native Tokenization Debate

• Primary Theme: Much of today's tokenization—including stablecoins and tokenized stocks—is via "wrappers" rather than true native, on-chain representations.

  • David (00:43): “The big takeaway I have from this episode is the whole wrapped versus native debate...there is going to be a little bit of a tug of war between native securities tokenized on chain...versus what Ondo is doing, which is a wrapped version which is more similar to stablecoins.”

• Rationale: Native tokenization faces major compliance and KYC obstacles, which dramatically limit permissionless use and integration with DeFi. Wrapped models, similar to stablecoins, offer a practical path to composability and global accessibility.

2. Lessons from Stablecoins and Treasuries

• Product-Market Fit: Stablecoins succeeded because of capital efficiency, liquidity, and adaptability—qualities the panel expects to drive the adoption of other RWA tokens.

  • Ryan (01:39): “Just take what happened with stablecoins and extrapolate that to every other real world asset category...The model that scaled...was collateralized with real world assets on the back.”

• Tokenized Treasuries: Initially slow, tokenized treasuries have grown rapidly, now exceeding $7 billion, much faster than stablecoins took to reach similar scale (14:54).

  • Ian (14:54): “When you look at how long it took stable coins to get to the 7 billion number, it is much, much, much longer [than treasuries].”

• Tokenized Treasuries vs. Stablecoins:

  • Stablecoins: Great for payments, but lack yield and have mixed investor protections.
  • Treasuries: Offer better investor protection, daily yield, expanding use cases (e.g., as collateral).

3. The Regulatory Landscape & Access Barriers

• Geo-blocking and Compliance: U.S. investors are generally geo-blocked from many tokenized security products due to regulatory uncertainty, even as global demand surges.

  • Nathan (32:40): “I don't think we will be blocking US Persons for too, too much longer. For what it's worth...the SEC's indicated very publicly...openness to engage with issuers on multiple different models for tokenization in the US...”

• Progress and Challenges: Retail in the U.S. already has access to stocks via mainstream brokers, but the goal is unlocking global, 24/7, permissionless access and broader DeFi integration.

4. Ondo Global Markets Tokenized Stocks

• Innovation: Ondo’s new platform launches 100+ tokenized stocks and ETFs on Ethereum—permissionless, with instant access and competitive pricing (37:59).

  • Ian (37:59): “Honda Global Markets is the first platform where the assets are both permissionless and you can buy these things in size at the right price...”

• Liquidity Model: Instead of relying on pre-funded DEX pools (like XStocks), Ondo enables “just-in-time” minting and instant tap of TradFi liquidity, eliminating slippage and inventory costs (41:00-45:52).

5. Property Rights and Investor Protections

• Structure: Ondo’s tokens are debt securities, fully collateralized by the underlying shares/ETFs, with a third-party collateral agent enforcing backing and handling default or wind-down scenarios (46:04).

  • Nathan (46:04): “It's actually a debt security that is secured by, collateralized by the underlying security itself, and that provides a return that tracks the underlying, and we reinvest the dividends.”

• Comparison to Brokerage: Similar or better risk profile compared to holding stocks in margin accounts at a broker (51:29).

  • Nathan (51:29): “...ultimately what you have is IOU to your broker...if you compare that to holding one of our tokens...that is tremendously less risky, I would argue, and a whole lot of dimensions than holding stocks at a brokerage.”

• Dividends: Dividends are reinvested to keep the on-chain tokens composable with DeFi.

6. Permissionless Use & DeFi Integration

• Global Composability: Once issued to non-U.S. investors, tokenized assets can move freely and be integrated into protocols, exchanges, liquidity pools, etc. (28:35).

  • Ian (28:35): “By making these assets permissionless, they can be integrated into a wide variety of defi protocols, just like with stablecoins.”
  • Ian (67:57): “...we structured them as permissionless bare instruments...so people can use these things in defi.”

• 24/7 Trading & Price Discovery: While primary market mint/redeem stays within TradFi market hours (24.5h weekly), on-chain assets can be traded and priced permissionlessly even on weekends—potentially leapfrogging TradFi’s restrictions (65:33).

7. The Role and Future of Layer 1s (L1s) and Multi-Chain

• Chain Choices: Ethereum is the primary platform due to DeFi network effects, intense infrastructure, and liquidity, but issuers (including Ondo) are building purpose-built L1s for specific features (latency, privacy, etc.), while assets (as OFTs) can move to wherever DeFi exists (79:45).

  • Ian (79:45): “We issued all of our assets as Lira 0 ofts in part because we expect these assets to go to wherever the users are and to wherever there is a vibrant defi ecosystem that can support these things.”

• Interoperability: Real-world assets (RWAs) will flourish in a multi-chain world—public and purpose-built L1s, with the challenge being to avoid liquidity fragmentation.

8. Societal and Wall Street Readiness

• TradFi's Attitude: Wall Street is waking up, with institutions preparing for onchain RWAs, but most are still underestimating the scale and pace of change (91:24).

  • Ian (91:24): “I don't think they really do [know what's coming], if I'm being honest...with increasing regulatory clarity, I’m very bullish on what a lot of these asset managers in particular, and now even some banks are starting to do.”

• Partnerships: Ondo is partnering with large institutions like Fidelity, J.P. Morgan, etc., to bridge traditional and onchain markets.

9. The Road to 2030

• Hockey Stick Adoption: Panel expects a sharp, sudden acceleration (hockey stick) as DeFi and tokenized assets become the default rails for new investors (93:16).
  • Ian (93:16): “I do feel pretty confident that, you know, five years from now, 2030, a lot of people who open up an investment account for the first time, it will be on on chain rails, on blockchain rails, and they'll be able to hold equities...”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On TradFi’s User Experience:
  “I think people don't understand actually how much tradfi kind of sucks until they use it...Like, I'm learning about finance by route of crypto...”
  — Ryan (10:33)

• Stablecoins as the Template:
  “If a stablecoin had originally been issued as true native cash sitting at a bank account, I'm pretty sure that evolution probably would not have happened.”
  — Ian (57:48)

• Permissionless Assets and DeFi:
  “If you fundamentally believe that an RWA cannot truly operate on a permissionless chain, I'd almost say what's the point?”
  — Ian (91:06)

• On the Future:
  “...We've always viewed tokenized Treasuries as a wedge, a beach ad into broader tokenized securities capabilities. It's become a very, very competitive, almost commoditized space.”
  — Nathan (20:30)

Timestamps of Important Segments

• Wrapped vs. Native Tokenization: 00:43–03:39
• Stablecoins & Tokenized Treasury Growth: 06:08–14:54
• Repo Markets Explained: 17:49–18:55
• How Tokenized Securities Work, Whitelists, Compliance: 25:36–31:03
• Why US Investors Are Blocked (for now): 31:03–33:42
• Ondo’s Tokenized Equities & Liquidity Model: 37:59–45:52
• Legal Structure / Property Rights: 46:04–54:46
• 24/7 Trading & Price Discovery: 64:29–66:39
• DeFi and Tokenized Stocks as Money Legos: 70:53–78:04
• Role of L1s / Multi-chain Future: 79:45–84:59
• Wall Street’s Awareness/Preparation: 91:06–93:16
• 2030 Predictions: 93:16–94:22

Conclusion

This episode is a deep dive into the inevitable shift of the global financial system toward blockchain rails, with permissionless, highly liquid, investor-protected tokenized versions of stocks, bonds, and other RWAs. Through practical lessons from stablecoins, regulatory progress, and new models pioneered by platforms like Ondo, the panel paints a future where DeFi and TradFi merge on the blockchain—with efficiency, composability, and global accessibility at the core.

Final Word:
Ondo’s approach—emphasizing well-collateralized wrappers, global permissionless access, and seamless liquidity bridging—is paving the way for a “$100 trillion on-chain shift” and a radical reinvention of capital markets by 2030.