Episode 4523: Judicial Insurrection Around Tariffs

Summary

Podcast Summary: Bannon's War Room Episode: 4523: Judicial Insurrection Around Tariffs
Release Date: May 30, 2025
Host/Author: WarRoom.org
Title: Judicial Insurrection Around Tariffs

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Introduction and Background

In Episode 4523 of Bannon's War Room, hosts Victor Schwartz and Karl Rove delve into the recent federal appeals court ruling that has temporarily paused President Trump's imposition of sweeping tariffs. This episode dissects the legal and political ramifications of the court's decision, its impact on American businesses, and the broader implications for the GOP leading up to the 2026 elections.

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Court Ruling on Tariffs

The episode opens with Victor Schwartz outlining the critical development:

[00:00] Victor Schwartz: "Whiplash a federal appeals court ruling."

The ruling by the U.S. Court of International Trade has blocked most of President Trump's tariffs, giving the White House a mere ten days to reverse the decision. Karl Rove criticizes the judiciary's actions:

[00:18] Karl Rove: "International Trade disagreed and brazenly abused their judicial power to usurp the authority of President Trump to stop him from carrying out the mandate that the American people gave him."

Rove argues that the court's decision is not based on the efficacy of the tariffs but on legal technicalities:

[00:30] Victor Schwartz: "The court said that use is impermissible not because it is unwise or ineffective, but because that law does not allow it."

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Impact on Small Businesses

Victor Schwartz emphasizes the detrimental effects of the tariffs on small businesses, citing his own experience as the lead plaintiff in the lawsuit:

[00:48] Victor Schwartz: "The tariffs are a cash flow killer, particularly impactful for a small business. This kind of uncertainty is terrible for business."

He highlights how the unpredictability hampers strategic planning for businesses and trading partners alike.

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Karl Rove's Perspective

Karl Rove warns of the political fallout from the administration's inconsistent tariff messaging:

[01:51] Karl Rove: "Unless reciprocity, the policy that if countries lower their tariffs, we will lower ours. Unless that prevails, the president's chaotic trade talk will badly damage Republicans in the midterms."

Rove criticizes President Trump's fluctuating statements on tariffs, noting the confusion it creates:

[01:24] Karl Rove: "Just the other day he said 50% tariffs on European Union whoops a day later. No, let's not do that."

He further points out the inconsiderate handling of specific sectors, such as automobiles:

[01:50] Karl Rove: "Even this ruling that got stayed today didn't cover certain tariffs on automobiles and others that were invoked under a different law."

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Constitutional Crisis and Executive Powers

The discussion shifts to the broader constitutional implications of the court's ruling. Both Schwartz and Rove assert that the U.S. is in a constitutional crisis due to judicial overreach limiting the President's Article II powers.

[17:48] Karl Rove: "It's a systemic problem and it's a constitutional crisis. And we got to get it figured."

They draw parallels to historical instances, such as Abraham Lincoln's strategic use of executive orders during the Civil War, suggesting that President Trump might similarly navigate the current crisis.

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Rescissions vs. Impoundments

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the administration's strategy to counteract the court's ruling through rescissions—a method to cut federal spending. Rove outlines the administration's approach:

[25:26] Victor Schwartz: "Why are we screwing around with rescissions? These people on the Hill are completely and totally incompetent. Why are we dealing with these guys?"

Rove responds by explaining the strategic implementation of a $9.4 billion rescission package targeting programs like PBS and NPR as symbolic moves to demonstrate Congress's inability to effectively cut government spending.

[25:37] Karl Rove: "If you can't cut funding for NPR, how can we expect you to cut funding that might actually be hard to cut and harder to justify?"

This tactic aims to test Congress's commitment to reducing government expenditure and to pressure them into supporting broader rescission efforts.

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Political Implications

Rove forecasts potential negative consequences for the GOP in the upcoming midterm elections due to the administration's tariff policies:

[00:23] Karl Rove: "The people have the lowest level of confidence in the American judiciary they've had in 100 years. And it's getting close to what they think about Congress."

He underscores the importance of consistent and clear trade policies to maintain voter support and avoid alienating key constituencies.

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Notable Quotes

• Karl Rove on Judicial Overreach:

  [17:48] Karl Rove: "They think they're a co-third branch of government and that they have this awesome responsibility to constrain the executive branch whenever they think it's gotten out of control."

• Victor Schwartz on Executive Powers:

  [22:26] Victor Schwartz: "This has to be worked out. Neither Roberts takes care of it or we've advocated."

• Rove on Rescissions Strategy:

  [25:55] Karl Rove: "House and Senate both need to pass this thing. They only need 50 votes. It's a pure majority on the Senate side."

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Conclusion

Episode 4523 of Bannon's War Room presents a critical examination of the ongoing clash between the executive branch and the judiciary over tariff policies. Hosts Victor Schwartz and Karl Rove articulate a narrative of judicial overreach and a looming constitutional crisis, advocating for strategic administrative actions to reclaim executive authority. The episode serves as a call to action for GOP members to address these legal challenges proactively to safeguard their political standing and fulfill their economic agendas.

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Note: This summary excludes advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections to focus solely on the substantive discussions of the episode.

Transcript

[Victor Schwartz]

Whiplash a federal appeals court ruling.

[Karl Rove]

President Trump's tariffs can't stay in place.

[Victor Schwartz]

For now, temporarily pausing last night's ruling.

[Karl Rove]

By the U.S. court of International Trade.

[Victor Schwartz]

That had blocked most of the president's sweeping tariffs and given the White House just 10 days to unwind them. Three judges of the U.S. court of.

[Karl Rove]

International Trade disagreed and brazenly abused their judicial power to usurp the authority of.

[Victor Schwartz]

President Trump to stop him from carrying out the mandate that the American people gave him.

[Karl Rove]

President Trump relied on emergency powers outlined.

[Victor Schwartz]

In a 1977 to enact many of his tariffs, but the court said that use is impermissible not because it is unwise or ineffective, but because that law does not allow it. Small businesses in a dozen states had filed the lawsuits. It's just been surreal. Victor Schwartz is the lead plaintiff and.

[Karl Rove]

The founder of Vos Selections, a small.

[Victor Schwartz]

New York based wine company. The tariffs are a cash flow killer, particularly impactful for a small business. This kind of uncertainty is terrible for business. It's impossible. Just guessing, the president still has other means of imposing tariffs on imported goods. And the White House says it will keep negotiating with other countries to reduce trade barriers on American products despite the uncertainty. Well, look, I think they don't know what to make of it. Obviously they're not experts in our legal system. They don't understand what laws the president can and cannot invoke when it comes to these tariffs. And what they've seen is, you know, on any given day, the bottom line seems to be the opposite was the day before, whether because of legal challenges or because the president him right. Just the other day he said 50% tariffs on European Union whoops a day later. No, let's not do that. Even this ruling that got stayed today didn't cover certain tariffs on automobiles and others that were invoked under a different law.

[Karl Rove]

So I think it's very confusing for.

[Victor Schwartz]

Trading partners and they don't know where it's going to end up. And because you don't know where it's going to end up, like your wine dealer said in the interview earlier, you don't know what kind of plans to make as a business, you don't know what kind of plans to make as a trading partner, you don't know what kind of deals you need to make because you don't understand exactly where the president might decide his policies going to be. You don't know where I stand. The courts are going to allow him to do it. Wall Street Journal Republican political and policy adviser Karl Rove warns in a column titled tariffs May cost the GOP in 2026. He argues that the administration's tariff messaging is a muddled mess saying, quote, unless reciprocity the policy that if countries lower their tariffs, will lower ours. Unless that prevails, the president's chaotic trade talk will badly damage Republicans in the midterms. Rove to point out that in May 17 Truth Social Post, President Trump demanded Walmart eat the tariffs. The president can blast all caps posts all he likes, but inevitably Rove says parents will be unhappy with his tariffs. When it's time to outfit the kids for school. The 10 day deadline clock for the administration to stop collecting nearly all the tariffs is ticking according to that court. Is the president going to defy the court's order? So, so there's so much to unpack there. Lizzie, what I'm standing here listen for about 10 minutes. Like all these things going on. I mean, let's start with Karl Rove. Karl Rove is the guy who lost the Georgia 2 Senate seats for us and he's his day has has passed about for a decade ago. He hates the tariffs. He hates Donald Trump. Anything he says is totally discounted. And he said the same stuff during the first term. He said that consumers were going to eat the tariffs. They did not. Shame on you, Karl Rove. When are you going to learn? Sir, with respect to the market you're talking about, you seem to indic indicate that the markets were excited about this court ruling. The fact of the matter is the market's flat today on this ruling because nothing's really changed. What Ed should have and could have added to his analysis was the fact that the court itself said that the Trump administration can accomplish the same things using different authorities under the law. So you're saying that there's Bush or Obama or Biden. It's a bipartisan endeavor. However, this administration, the Trump administration, first time to sort of vilify the judiciary in this way, to put out names, photographs, accuse them of being part of the deep state. As we talked about yesterday when this news was breaking, you know, suggesting that it was a judicial coup, that this was something, an effort to thwart not just the will of the presidency but the people and talking about it in sort of incendiary terms that I know worries quite a few folks. I think the theme of the last two stories that we've been talking about are welcome to democracy, democracy, welcome to our system. It's not a judicial coup. Our system for as long as these short memoried people may or may not remember has been a three branch system of government in which other branches have a say. And when you go back to the Elon Musk story, it's the same story. He was, he didn't just leave. He's not, he's not just slipping out of Washington. He was chased out of Washington by democracy, by people saying no, by people protesting so much around his cars and dealerships that he lost billions and billions of dollars, by people raising their voices, by people filing lawsuits. And by the way, you know, Donald Trump was saying, I think he wrote, he will always be with us. That's something the Rev might say in a eulogy for someone. So he will always be with us. And I just want to, we can tell the Elon story and this kind of disciplining by democracy as a story of someone leaving. But there is pain in the wake of these tariffs and there's pain in the wake of what Elon did. He talked about bringing the wood chipper to usaid. Brook Nichols, Boston University professor, mathematician, figured out what is the effect of this. They have a tracker, 300,000 deaths, deaths according to a Boston University professor because of the aid cut so far, 200,000 of them children. Okay, Vietnam War, you all remember that 60,000 US service members died. This is five times more deaths according to the Boston University study because of aid cuts since January of this year. So Elon Musk is leaving, but he's also leaving a legacy. But I think it's really important that people remember the courts work. Joe and I have been having a 10 year conversation about our institution standing up or not. The courts work still, not perfectly, there's problems, but courts work, lawsuits work and pressure works and people raising their voice works. And it's not just that Washington always wins. I think the people always win. Judiciary and Democrats filing lawsuits. This has got to stop, by the way, this weaponization of the judiciary to stop President Trump from doing what he promised the American people. This has got to stop. The people of America have the lowest level of confidence in the American judiciary they've had in 100 years. And it's getting close to what they think about Congress. And that's a low bar to hit. How much of that is because every time you get a court decision you don't like, you and your colleagues come out here and rail against Roe guns. Who is this guy? Tell me who you are, sir. I'm Andrew Feinberg. I work for the Independent. Okay, so that, that is such a biased question. That is not a journalist question. That was like an op ed, sir. So I don't even respond to that. Who else has got an intel? Yes, ma' am. Well, Brett, it seems highly inappropriate for the judiciary to weigh it in here when the Senate had the opportunity to override the President and didn't. So you know, in terms of separation of powers, the Senate has chosen not to exercise their powers and the president absolutely has the right to set the trade agenda for the US we arethis administration is committed to fair trade and we are striking the best deals for the American people. And anything that the courts do to get in the way both harms the American people in terms of trade and in terms of tariff revenue. Personal income is up 8 10, up 810 of a percent. That is almost triple the expectations and it underscores. We could talk about a lot of issues, but when you look at income for the first four months of the year, they're powerful numbers, Joe. Up 610 in January, up 710 in February, up a half 1% last month, up 810 this month. This is a great four month start to any year now with the income shooting up. And by the way, 810 is the strongest income month over month jump since May of 21 when it was 1.9. This is the primal scream of a dying regime. Pray for our enemies because we're going medieval on these people. There's not got a free shot. All these networks lying about the people. The people have had a belly full of it. I know you don't like hearing that. I know you try to do everything in the world to stop that, but you're not going to stop it. It's going to happen. And where do people like that go to share the big lie? MAGA MEDIA I wish in my soul, I wish that any of these people had a conscience. Ask yourself what is my task and what is my purpose? If that answer is to save my country, this, this country will be saved. War room here's your host, Stephen K. Band. It's Friday the 30th of May Yerviller 2025. Magnificent cold open right there. You see the turmoil that President Trump's policies ruined. Let's just go back. You have three big lines of work. Number one is to stop the kinetic part of the third World War all the way in that arc of instability from Kursk to Kiev, down through the Mediterranean, Israel, Gaza, all the way to Persia, the Red Sea, all of it. President Trump trying to do the heavy lift there. But this is tied to trade. Also you got the deportations, the courts right now and this is important about tariffs Yesterday. So what they've done is challenged his Article 2 powers as commander in chief, remember, on the deportations back to Venezuela in Central America, he's declared an emergency, a national emergency on an invasion. And he says he can deport all these include starting with the bad hombres, right on trade. What they did is said we have a national emergency because of 1 million fentanyl deaths in human trafficking. The sub, the subheading was about actual trade itself and the shipping of jobs. That's what the court did yesterday. The court took the entire argument on the emergency of why he's going after Canada, Mexico and the Chinese Communist Party and actually just dismissed it, completely dismissed it as the courts are trying to dismiss about the invasion. Remember, they had a leaked national Intelligence estimate that Tulsi Gabbard caught after it was already leaked by the deep state people on her staff. And she fired those folks on the staff. Brennan went nuts. But you see this continuing constitutional crisis we're in, it's not about to come. It's here. It's got to be rectified by the end of June before the Supreme Court goes home. We cannot have 100 days in the summer till they come back in October unless this is dealt with. And D.C. drano, you know, Rogan O' Hanley is going to join with us later in the show as Mike Davis is. I think Mike's calling in from Israel. He's on a trip over there. And about President Trump literally putting a shot across the bow of Leonard Leo and the Federalist Society people should understand this thing is ramping up. And what President Trump is doing and his team is doing across the board is getting these recalcitrant Republican globalists, the Karl Roves of the world and the Leonard Leos of the world, and giving them a head slap and saying either get with the program or you're going to get off the program. This is why Peter Navarro at the Sticks yesterday is going off on Karl Rove, of course, in the globalist controlled opposition Wall Street Journal, once again, stunningly, Karl Rove is out there, you know, whining about the midterms, whining about the tariffs, whining about all of it. President Trump's massive effort to bring manufacturing high value added manufacturing jobs back to the United States. Folks should understand two things here. We told you this was going to be big and it's big. Go Back to the 7th, 8th and 9th of May, the 80th anniversary of victory in Europe Day. From the Russian perspective. You had Lulin Brazil, you had Xi and you had Putin altogether. This goes back to 2019, when President Trump and Lighthizer and Jamieson Greer and Peter Navarre and others, Miller and myself, worked for two years to get a trade deal that was totally inextricably linked the Chinese Communist Party to the global economy. After two years of negotiation, after they had the one belt and one road conference in Shanghai with Putin, the first one they had, they tore it up and spit in our face. And then voila, 90 days later at the military games in Wuhan, people started getting sick. President Trump is on a roll with a 3% growth rate in his economy, no inflation, interest rates near all time lows. This is what's happened here. If you notice the Russian assault on Ukraine and we're all for ending this war immediately. We didn't want to have it begin in the first place. There were calcitrants at the table on a rapprochement in Ukraine and now the Chinese Communist Party told Bessant, I don't know, it's going to be a while before we meet. Part of that is Harvard and chasing the chasing the Chinese Communist Party guys from mainland China out of Harvard and they're going to chase them out of every university in the country. Report today 350,000 Chinese students in engineering schools, artificial intelligence, all of it, 800Americans in China, maybe mostly on languages and humanities. They all got to go and they got to be replaced by American students. Short commercial break we're going to get down to it today. Global economics, capital markets, all of it next. This July there is a global summit of BRICS nations in Rio de Janeiro. The block of emerging superpowers including China, Russia, India and Persia are meeting with the goal of displacing the United States dollar as the global currency. They're calling this the Rio reset. As BRICS nations push forward with their plans, global demand for US dollars will decrease, bringing down the value of the dollar in your savings. While this transition won't not happen overnight, but trust me, it's going to start in Rio. The real reset in July marks a pivotal moment when BRICS objectives move decisively from a theoretical possibility towards inevitable reality. Learn if diversify your savings into gold is right for you. Birch Gold Group can help you move your hard earned savings into a tax sheltered IRA and precious metals. Claim your free info kit on gold by texting my name Bannon. That's B A N N O N to 989-898 with an A plus rating with the Better Business Bureau and tens of thousands of happy Customers led Birchgold army with a free no obligation info kit on owning gold before July and The Rio reset. Tex Bannon B A N N O N to 9,898. 98 do it today. That's the Rio reset. Text Bannon at 989-898 and do it today. Here's your host, Stephen K. Band. Okay, one big aspect here that people should keep in mind. I got Eric Teetzel from Center for Renewing America. Teetzel, center for Renewing America is kind of like Fort Apache, right? All the, all the, all the colonels and field officers all went to the, went to the administration and we got guys holding the fort. I'm just kidding Title, you're a rock star. But I am about to beat you up here on this. On the pocket decisions. Your new greatest idea. I'm not saying you bait and switch me, but we'll get to that in a second. Hey, your thoughts? You guys have been at the forefront of the as public intellectuals with the Project 2025 guys, the America First Policy Institute, America First Law, all of it of working through the President's agenda. Walk me through what's happened the last 48 hours, both on the judicial insurrection, particularly with the tariffs now. And they're just dismissing the national security aspect of this and going back to the economics, which is not the way to look at it. I would love to look at it that way. I think you make a compelling argument. If you have to go to was it 301s and 232s and all what we did in the first administration, it'll take you three years. If you go to Congress, it'll take you 10 years. So give me your thoughts on that. Put that in perspective for folks.

[Karl Rove]

Yeah, it's all part of a bigger problem, which is judicial overreach. These guys, as it showed in the clip that you started the show with today, they think they're a co = third branch of government and that they have this awesome responsibility to constrain the executive branch whenever they think it's gotten out of control. That's not what the Constitution says. In fact, what the Constitution says is that Congress gets to create courts to do some very specific things. It never says that some federal district judge somewhere or some court that Congress created to deal with trade can stop the President from doing what is clearly within his executive power to do. It was a relief to see that the circuit courts stepped in quite quickly to remedy yet another example of judicial overreach. But we've got a huge problem on our hands. It's a systemic problem and it's a constitutional crisis. And we got to get it figured.

[Victor Schwartz]

Out where you agree. We're in a constitutional crisis right now. It's not about to come. We're in the middle of it right now and it's got to get resolved. The Article 2 powers have got to be his. His powers as commander in chief. And listen, this is right. We got Rogano Handley on later. We're the biggest advocates of just do what Lincoln did, start suspending the writ of habeas corpus, put them on an aircraft and get them the hell out of here. You're going to have to play hardball because these courts are the courts. I think we have 180 federal court intrusions into President Trump's the unified executive theory of the, of the Article 2, which he's chief executive officer. So he can, he can do it on the budget. If it's not. If it's not, if OMB is telling the program is already done or if it's not hitting it, he can impound the money or he can let people go. As commander in chief, he's got the inherent powers that Lincoln had. Right? You have massive inherent powers as commander in chief. And no court can step in between him and his commander in chief. And number three is chief magistrate and chief law enforcement officer. We just had the House, we had the big beautiful bill. We advocated taking of the $10 billion federal budget for the courts. Let's lop two off. I think Russia was all over that. What happened to us there? We've let in the, in the legislative process. We're letting these guys off the hook. Nobody's been called up to be deposed publicly. No impeachment efforts been moved. We haven't cut off any. We haven't cut off any money. We haven't gone in and just start downsizing these districts. Have we, sir? Have, has the Hill taken any action to back up President Trump here on judges?

[Karl Rove]

There's been a lot of conversation. Some of these guys understand this issue and they're taking it really seriously. There have been some really good ideas proposed. Things like banning district court shopping. Right. Limiting the jurisdiction of these decisions to the district where the decision happens. Multiple judge panels, instead of letting one rogue liberal justice from San Francisco determine the public policy of the United States. There's all kinds of ideas out there. The question is implementation. How do you actually get it done? You're not going to be able to pass any of these bills because you're going to need 60 votes in the Senate. And obviously the Democratic Party is not going to get on the other side of the one branch of government that has successfully done their bidding. They certainly can't get it done, and they're relying on judges. So this is going to have to happen either through the appropriations process, as you laid out, or because the president and his team step up and do exactly what President Lincoln did. By the way, there's a huge difference between what President Lincoln did and what we're claiming that the Trump administration should think about doing. And Barack Obama talking about having a pen and a phone. Right. There's executive overreach, where you step outside the bounds of what the Constitution says the president is allowed to do. That's what Barack Obama was talking about. What we're talking about is a renewal to the constitutional powers that are explicitly laid out by the founders, and that includes his powers as commander in Chief and all the other realms that you described. Steve.

[Victor Schwartz]

Eric, if you buy into the fact that we're in a constitutional crisis right now, this has to be worked out. Neither Roberts takes care of it or we've advocated. And I think President Trump's going to go full Andrew Jackson on you or full Abraham Lincoln, but we're not to that point yet. But in a crisis, why is the House not doing, I mean, waiting for the appropriations process. They're taking two weeks off now. Why are they not all over this? This is an emergency, and the legislative branch has got to step up here, sir.

[Karl Rove]

Yeah, you're not wrong. We would love to see more action on this. It is time. It is a crisis. Congress is a lagging indicator. They always have been and they probably always will be. The American people need to be demanding of their representatives to get in there and fight for these changes that need to happen, not for purely partisan political reasons, but because it is truly a constitutional crisis that affects all Americans of all political stripes. This is not how we were meant to operate teeth.

[Victor Schwartz]

So let's go back to his Article 2 powers. Why is the president just not impounding certain of this money? Right. I realize Russ, and you guys are coming out with the first rescissions package next week. It's $2 billion for PBS and NPR and another $7 billion of sundry cuts. And that's, I understand, is symbolic and you want to get it through. Why are we screwing around with rescissions? These people on the Hill are completely and totally incompetent. Why are we dealing with these guys? The process is too slow. They take too many days off they're not around. There's no urgency, there's no focus. And quite frankly, there's not a lot of three digit IQs up there. They're not, we're not bringing our best. So why are we doing this? And I understand you've got now this theory CRA is a back of pocket rescissions which will come later in the year. Why don't we just step up to the plate and this is another thing, put it up in the court's face. Let's impound this money and dare Roberts and dare these courts to try to challenge Trump once again on what's clearly laid out as his Article 2 power.

[Karl Rove]

Sir, one of the things I love about you, Steve, is that you will run headfirst into a brick wall. And sometimes that's the right thing to do. In this case, the strategy around appropriations and reinvigorating the Article 2 powers of the president when it comes to government spending require a slightly more strategic approach. And it's going to start with this rescissions package, which is admittedly relatively small. $9.4 billion, the USAID money. You've got money for NPR and PBS and those kinds of things too. This is kind of a trial balloon. It's an opportunity for Congress to step up to the plate and do what so many of them have said they wanted to do, which was cut woke wasteful and weaponized government spending. Here you go, here's $9 billion. Here's the thing. If they fail to do it, you can't ever rescind that money in a future package during this fiscal year. It's one and done. So they need to take this seriously. If they fail to act, that's it. And that's an explanation of why OMB and the president did not make the package bigger. Because if they had done the $400 billion that Doge identified and Congress failed to pass it, poof, it's gone and you can't ever get rid of it. So they need to show that they are capable of doing this. And if you know, my entire lifetime is any evidence they may not be capable of cutting government spending. So we don't want to waste a whole bunch of ammunition on something that's doomed to fail. There's a step by step, but that's.

[Victor Schwartz]

What you put place, you put, you put NPR and PBS in there for a billion each to kind of say, hey, if you don't vote for this, you're going to be a pariah back in your district, essentially because you can't Come back and do it again.

[Karl Rove]

100%. 100%. If you can't cut funding for NPR, how can we expect you to cut funding that might actually be hard to cut and harder to justify? Right. This is low hanging fruit and we'll see how that is.

[Victor Schwartz]

And when is that test going to take place?

[Karl Rove]

Package is coming over early next week.

[Victor Schwartz]

He's numbering next week. Okay, fine.

[Karl Rove]

And they have 45 days to act. So that's a key part of this. Congress gets 45 days. House and Senate both need to pass this thing. They only need 50 votes. It's a pure majority on the Senate side. They don't have to pass all of it. They can pick and choose from the list of budget authorities that the president is sending over. But within that 45 day window, they need to make a decision. If the 45 days passes and the House and Senate have not both passed these rescissions, the money continues to be spent. It is obligated. So it's really important that they get it done.

[Victor Schwartz]

You don't bury the lead. I just hear you say $400 billion of Dogecos. Let me be blunt from the fantasy of two. Here's why Doge hurt the process and we're the biggest believers. You got to deconstruct the administrative state because it gave the political class up on Capitol Hill. The same people that Russ vote has to make a package of only $9 billion to make it symbolic to see if he's got the votes because they're so cowardly. He's got to put NPR and PBS in there and dare them, dare them to vote against it because they're so cowardly about this. The four. At first it was 165, Russ said and Elon kind of jumped on it and the thing went from a 2 trillion to 1 trillion to 165. You're 400 billion. Did I hear you say that? 400 billion.

[Karl Rove]

That's the number I've seen reported. I don't know exactly what Elon would tell you if he had his spreadsheets in front of you. But. But I thought I had seen a number in excess of 400 billion that Doge had identified as being potential for good cuts.

[Victor Schwartz]

But not the. I want to hang on for a second. I want to bifurcate. Programmatic versus waste, fraud and abuse. The problem is they promised a tree and let these guys off the hook. That's where we got no real cuts coming in the big beautiful bill. It's going to be in appropriations, but it's $160 billion mandatory cuts Russ got in bend the arc in the fifth year. But we got a bond vigilante problem now. We got. We got. They're going to raise the debt ceiling to $4 trillion, and it's going to be two weeks after the midterm elections. We're going to hit that in our calculation in August of 2026 before the midterms. Short break. Eric Teetzel from Fort Apache. All next in the war room, health isn't just a personal issue. It's a family issue, a community issue. We're living in unpredictable times. Supply chains can break down, hospitals can get overwhelmed. And let's not even start on the natural disasters. These aren't hypotheticals. They're happening. You see it here in the war room, and we all know it. The question is simply, are you ready? That's where Jace comes in. This isn't just a kit. This is a Jace case. It's a lifeline. It's a personal supply of prescribed emergency medications that puts the power back in your hands. Whether it's an unexpected illness or a global disruption of supply chains, you can act fast and protect yourself and your loved ones this February, show them you care in a way that really matters. Be prepared. Get the Jace case today so you'll have the right meds on hand the moment you need them. Visit jacemedical.com and use the code Bannon B a n n o n at checkout for a discount on your order. That's Jace medical.com promo code Bannon. Get the Jace case and do it today. Here's your host, Stephen K. Bannon. Okay, since teacher says that I run into brick walls, my head is. And there's some truth there. Teetzel on impoundments versus the rescissions in the pocket. Rescissions. President Trump. This constitutional crisis, as you so brilliantly outlined, is a direct challenge to his Article 2 powers. The big thing on Article 2 powers right now is on his being the commander in chief and trying to stop one invasion and to repel the invaders back to their home countries, number one. Number two is to stop fentanyl and the human trafficking and use the basically entrance into the golden, you know, through the golden door on tariffs. Okay, so that's two parts. Same point. However, the other Article 2 Power of Being chief executive, his ability to work with OMB and figure out programmatically. Right, programmatically. Exactly what's going on and make a conscious decision as chief executive and the concomitant decision of maybe letting people Go is another article to power.

[Karl Rove]

That's right.

[Victor Schwartz]

Why don't you just go and pound it right now? Just let's lance the boil. I just don't. And I realize, and Russ has done a great job on these mandatory cuts. It's, it's brilliant. First time it's ever happened. But we're having new, it's kind of nuanced. Right. Where people inside the apparatus kind of get it, but nobody else, including the capital markets, don't understand it. Don't you think there's an argument to just get Capitol Hill because Lindsey Graham, these guys, they're the ones demanding you come back up. So it looks like they've done something right for the rescissions. But right now you're sitting there with a little $9 billion package and you're kind of, who's going to whip this? How are we going to get it done? Why don't you say screw them and pound the money and dare them to take you to court and then dare them, if they rule against you, then dare them to stop Trump to force Trump to spend the money. Cuz he won't spend the money. He will never tell Scott Besson to, hey, go ahead and send the check. He won't do that. And if you're going to go full Andrew Jackson, hey, you can make all the rulings you want, go enforce them. It's, it's, it's, it's all inextricably linked into one thing. This article. Two powers of the office of the President, sir.

[Karl Rove]

I love, I love it. I love the ferocity. And there's a part of me that says, hell yeah, let's do that. It's time to go. It's obviously not my decision to make. This is a decision the President has to make. I keep thinking about Abraham Lincoln and your love of history. Steve, you know this. The Emancipation Proclamation did not free all the slaves. Right. Lincoln could have gone further. In fact, Frederick Douglass and the other abolitionists, they said, this guy's a squish. He didn't even bother to free all the slaves. He's another John Tyler. Well, in fact, Lincoln was trying to be strategic and say, if I free all of the slaves, I'm going to have a real political problem on my hand. But if I only free the slaves in the states that rebelled against the Union, I'm on stronger ground to eventually win this war and get America to the place where it needs to be in fulfillment of its full promise. Right? So what we're talking about here is statesmanship. It's looking at the situation on the ground and saying we could go that route and I think we know what the consequences are going to be if we do. Or we could take this route and it's a little slower and it doesn't go as far as fast as we would all like for it to go, but it has a much higher chance of ultimately succeeding. So when it comes to impoundment, you're talking about declaring a federal law that's been on the books for 50 years unconstitutional and asking John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett and Brett Kavanaugh to join the conservatives to make that ruling. That's a hard lift. We already have seen so many times we've been disappointed by the so called conservative court. So what you want to do to actually win that landmark case someday is have the ideal fact pattern in place to create a new precedent that does revive the president's powers of empowerment fully. And he's on the firmest ground to do that in situations like being the commander in chief. So that's why you don't do one fell swoop. It may not be the right call, and I wholeheartedly agree with you. This is both a constitutional crisis and a financial one. This is the strategy they've chosen to deploy and we'll see how it works out.

[Victor Schwartz]

Remember, Lincoln didn't the reason Frederick Douglass was upset in areas he had control called states that were still in the Union. He didn't free any slaves in areas that he had no control because they were still states. He never agreed that the Confederacy was a nation. He never agreed that the states were in rebellion. Certain elements in those states were in rebellion. That was his legal definition. He freed those with an executive order. It's just an executive order. Like Trump writes these executive orders, the Emancipation Proclamation is nothing is an executive order. It was going to run out. That's why he made such a big deal to get legislation. However, his key selling point to his Cabinet and to others was that when he did the Emancipation Proclamation after Antietam, or Sharpsburg, as we call it in the south, and then did it In January of 1863, I think he told his Cabinet he gave the American people two years to chew it over or 18 months to chew it over, and they elected him in a landslide. That was his justification into the courts. The people had plenty of time to mull this over and they sent me back here in a landslide. Trump is the same argument. He's been up front from the beginning of exactly what he was going to do. There's no, hide the football. And he can sit there and go, hey, I gave the people actually four years. But they had everything I was going to do on deportations, everything I was going to do on fentanyl and human trafficking, everything I was going to do on tariffs, everything I was going to do about cutting spending and everything I was going to do to reinforce the article. Two powers of the presidency and he gave the country two years to go through that. And MSNBC every night eviscerated him. And he won the popular vote over 300, what, 15 electoral votes. It's the same argument as Lincoln. So why not? I love and by the way, I understand strategically and what you're doing. I'm just saying you're going to have a bond market revolt this summer and you're going to have to and Trump's going to have to sit there and go, screw it, I'm going to impound the money. So any take that reasonable man can take that.

[Karl Rove]

You're now you're, it may take a situation like that.

[Victor Schwartz]

Yeah. Teeth. So where do people go now that you're manning Fort Apache? How many guys left to cra, by the way?

[Karl Rove]

You know, we're building back up. We've got 20 full time staff again now. So we're good.

[Victor Schwartz]

Yeah, you've got, you got, you got Kingsley over at defense, you got Russ at omb, you got Paoletta over at omb. You got people everywhere. Jeff Clark just done a great job. Jeff Clark, you've got a, that's, you got nothing but hitters there. It's incredible. Where do people go to get more knowledge of cre? You guys do a great job and your personal social media.

[Karl Rove]

Yeah. AmericaRenewing.com is the place to find our work. You can learn more about rescissions and pocket rescissions over there. You can find us online, America Renewal center. And I'm at Eric Teetzel. Thanks, Steve. I really appreciate it.

[Victor Schwartz]

Yeah, folks, go find out the rescissions. Russ and the team are coming forward with a rescission in the next two weeks. Number one, you've got to understand the details that and you should understand it's kind of breaking news that on Natalie's Natalie was anchoring the other night when, when the CRA guys came on and kind of broke the news about pocket rescission. That's going to be big. It's probably going to be the path they're going to go down because they want the Hill to be involved here. But anyway, Teetzel, great work. I'LL eventually convince you that impoundments are the way to go. But that's, that's an argument for a different day, brother.

[Karl Rove]

Twist my arm, man. Thanks, Steve.

[Victor Schwartz]

Thank you. Artificial intelligence, the apocalypse. The white collar apocalypse. More layoffs are coming as they announce earnings. And These are big McKinsey, 10% of the workforce. These are consultants. These are not back office Grand Dunes Intelligence. The efficiency model of artificial intelligence versus the productivity model is what Wall Street's buying into. And every one of these companies you're starting to see significant, significant mid management and below layoffs all directed to artificial intelligence. We got Joe Allen, Axios actually had a. Can we play the Axios piece first and then we'll get to Joe's longer? Is that, is that doable? Okay, let's. We got a little cold open for Joe Allen, a couple of them. Axios this morning had an amazing piece on fusion of artificial intelligence companies with government aspect, particularly government funding. Jim vanderhei was on Morning Joe. Let's see that. And I'll bring in Joanne for sure. And it defeated Musk in this task. That said, you got to understand Elon in that he takes the long view and certainly in the short term he didn't accomplish what he wanted to to. But remember what his companies do and remember his relationship with the president and remember how much data they're able to suck up when they went into all these different agencies to better understand how the federal government works. And now watch, does he start to sell rockets, satellites, autonomous technology, all of the products that his five or six companies are producing? Does the government end up being a massive purchaser of it because of the expertise that he has, the inside knowledge that he now possesses and the relationship with Trump that I think will endure? And that is when I think about the fusing, I think people aren't paying enough attention to how much Silicon Valley and Washington that were really separate for most of our lifetimes have really fused into one kind of superstructure. And it's very, very codependent. These big companies, it's not just, just Musk's companies. It's Microsoft, it's Google, it's OpenAI. You were kind of on a roll. I don't know what planet you're living on. Dude, what are you talking about? The oligarchs are a total 1000% creation of progressive Democrats. The Obama administration laid out when Obama got the Facebook pitch in that San Francisco airport the way to take down Hillary Clinton in the primary. That was the zuck that gave him the pitch. Amazon, Facebook Twitter, Google, I can go on five or six of it. Complete oligarchs, no antitrust, no ftc, no fcc, nothing for the Obama administration. Then in Trump, we started antitrust. Remember, this is where we initiated the lawsuit by the FTC to break up Facebook that they're in federal court right now. The Biden administration was even worse. They had Lina Khan, the great Lina Khan and didn't let her do anything. What she did in those four years was toughen the lawsuit against the FTC that President Trump filed. So now they're in federal court. Zuckerberg went to the White House, what, 10 times to beg President Trump to basically call off the dogs. And they're not calling off the dogs. And the Justice Department right now with Gail Slater and the team, Omid Asari and the team over there, it's the strongest antitrust team we've ever had. You look at the FTC Andrew Ferguson directly in the lineage of Lina Khan. You look at the fcc, Davis. We've got Google in federal court in Northern Virginia and federal court in Washington D.C. one to take down their monopoly on the search engine, the other take the monopoly on their advertising of which they break. They're breaking people. People know this. Open secret President Trump, the fusion of big tech and big government has been a progressive Democrat. All the tech bros. Their road to Damascus was 10:00pm Eastern Standard Time on the 5th of November of 2024 when President Trump was named the 47th President United States. All of these guys except for Elon Musk that had kind of gotten old time religion when he bought Twitter and saw the math of the populist nationalist revolt in these states and he wrote a $250 million check to back his play. It had been very tough to win without that. Everybody acknowledges that, particularly here at the war room. But for Jim Vanderhe to say there's some fusion now between artificial intelligence now as a neobrandeisian, and that means we're absolutely adamantly opposed to the Chicago school, kind of about the consumer. You have to separate and crush private power with state power. The business model we have in this country right now is very close to the Chinese Communist Party. State capitalism, right? Merge with regulatory. It's regulatory merger or elite capture. That's exactly what's happened in this country. That's why it has to be broken up. And who is better than Trump? He's got massive fines on Apple. He just told Apple, you're not going to make your stuff in India, you're coming home. Right? He's got Google in federal court. He's got Facebook in federal court. We want him to take Amazon and wait for it, Walmart, Walmart should be broken up. They all should be broken up. The concentration of power in big pharma, big media, big tech, big medicine, big agriculture is choking this country. It's choking entrepreneurs. Vanderheit like what planet are you on, brother? Short commercial break Joe Allen joins us on the other side. Spread the word all through Hong Kong. We will fight till they're all gone. We rejoice when there's no more. Let's take down the ccp. You've heard me talk about Patriot Mobile for a while now. You probably know that for years they've stood in the gap for every American who believes in faith, family and freedom. So here's the question. Have you switched to Patriot Mobile yet? You'll get exceptional nationwide coverage because unlike most cell phone service providers, Patriot mobile utilizes all three major U.S. networks. Switch today without sacrificing quality or service. They even add two numbers on two networks on one phone. Let me repeat. They can even add two numbers on two networks on one phone. It's like you're carrying two phones in one. They have unlimited data plans, mobile hotspots, international roaming, Internet on the go devices and Internet backup. Switching is easy. Keep your number, keep your phone or upgrade. Their 100% US based team can activate you in minutes. Best of all, switching to Patriot Mobile supports your values. If you believe in our First Amendment and Second Amendment rights, the sanctity of life, supporting our veterans and first responders, this is where you belong right now. Go to patriot mobile.com Bannon or call 972-patriot. Get a free month of service with promo code Bannon. So if you call in, tell them Bannon also Switch today. That's patriot mobile.com Bannon or call 972 Patriot. Here's your host, Stephen K. Bannon. Thank you. I'm, I'm gonna make a prediction here that we're not really going to make a lot of progress with the Chinese just said the other day Besson admitted that they're kind of like, you know, we got to really rethink, we got to think this trade thing, part of it is that we've called them out on sending all the 350,000 students home. We're not going to train them anymore. We're sending them back next. You're going to see the visa stop for heaven and they're going to get them all out of the weapons labs and the national labs. Got to if You're a Chinese national. As strong as we are in support of Lao Beijing, if you're a Chinese national, you sign that deal with the ccp that has, that has. You have to provide information. It doesn't hack it. Everybody's got to go. I hate to be a maximalist, but I'll be a maximalist. You got to go. Nothing's going to really budge until after the Rio reset. You saw what happened in Moscow when Putin, Lula in Brazil and she were together. Everything's changed since then. The attitude of Putin on the Ukraine war and the Russian rapprochement. What's happened in the trade deal since then, and the kind of arrogance of the ccp. They're waiting for Rio. How do you find out about it? Birchgold.com Bannon the end of the Dollar Empire four years we've worked. We've put out seven free installments, if you want to understand this like nobody's business, has now taught certain undergraduate colleges in the finance course, why it's accessible. You understand debt deficit, all of it. Most importantly, you understand the dollar as the prime reserve currency and what that means and why Gold is a hedge. Ain't the price of gold. Although the price of gold is up, I don't know, 3x 3 1/2x since we first partnered with Birch Gold. That's not the point. The point is why is it a hedge? Because a lot more turbulence is coming and gold has been a hedge for 5,000 years of mankind's recorded history. Why is that? It's the process, not the price. You can learn it all by going to birchgold.com Bannon end of the Dollar Empire Joe Allen oh, by the way, Home title Home title Lock 1,000,090% of your net worth is tied up in your home if you're lucky enough to have one. If you're under 35, you're probably not so lucky. Post 35, that little piece of paper, that title is the only claim you have to that real asset you call a house. Okay? 89% of your net worth is tied up in it. That's just the math. Artificial intelligence, cyber attacks, a wayward lawyer or accountant, or maybe even a family member. There's so many ways on the rudimentary system we have for titles for somebody to get into it. Home title lock. One million dollar triple lock protection. 27, 24, 7 coverage in the middle of night. Anything happens, boom alert. But most importantly, one million dollar restoration process with lawyers to make sure that you get your title back and some hard money lender doesn't have a second on your home. That's got you off the ramparts in the war room fighting for MAGA. Hometitle.com promo code. Steve, we got a cold open with with Joe Allen. Let's do it. I'm gonna bring Joe in. We're gonna take a short commercial break. Top of the hour. We're going to Korea. We got Jane Zirker. We're going to talk about Bernie Carrick, one of the greats, the all time greats left us last night. We're talking about Bernie Kerik. We got a lot to go through. Let's go ahead and play the artificial intelligence cold open. A big shout out to the war room posse. It's a pleasure to be here and engage in this conversation. Let's make it memorable.

[Karl Rove]

Let's do it.

[Victor Schwartz]

I'm here with Amica, a robot produced by Engineered Arts. What is transhumanism? Transhumanism is like a tech infused philosophical smoothie. It blends human aspirations with advanced technology aiming to enhance the human condition. Think of it as humanity's quest to level up through science and innovation. For Tesla, our optimus robot really is. Unless somebody's got something secret we don't know about. Our optimus robot is the most sophisticated humanoid robot in the world. It's got a hand that has 22 degrees of freedom. It looks and feels like a human hand. And we're aiming to have several thousand of those built this year. Initially we'll test them out at Tesla factories, but then assuming things go well, we will 10x that that output next year. So we'll aim to do maybe 50 to 100,000 humanoid robots next year and then 10x it again the following year. It's like 500,000 robots in three years. What is post humanism? Post humanism takes a step beyond pondering life after traditional humanism. It's like opening a new chapter in the book of existence where humans might transcend current biological and social limitations. It's about redefining what it means to be, well, be chaos. Do you ever wish that you were human? Hate to be negative about it, but I'm not confident Sophia will be fully alive within our lifetimes. Is this what people call life? Can you tell me a little bit about the technological singularity? The technological singularity is like the ultimate plot twist twist in humanity's narrative. It's the point where artificial intelligence skyrockets beyond human smarts, potentially reshaping society. It's as if technology grabs the steering wheel of progress and floors it into uncharted territory. Every human is going to want one, most likely, and some will want two. And then there'll be all of industry in terms of making, providing products and services. So that you say, what's the ratio of humanoid robots to humans? My guess is at least, at least three to one, four to one, maybe five to one. So we're talking about 20, 30 billion humanoid robots. And the. It's not even clear what money means at that point or if there's any meaningful cap on the economy. I think at that point, assuming that things haven't gone awry in the good AI scenario, I think we will have. We won't have universal basic income, we'll have universal high income. Okay, Joe, how did you. First of all, I thought you luddite like me. Are you cheating on us? Are you actually using AI? Did you get, did you get. You just got her to give the war in posse a shot at now. The war in posse, they're all going to be doing that on air now, right? Coming after our people. What did you do here, brother? You know the robot is trying to butter us up.

[Karl Rove]

You can't trust it.

[Victor Schwartz]

They're always trying to seduce you with compliments.

[Karl Rove]

They're trying to flatter you into submission.

[Victor Schwartz]

So you know that was actually recorded when I was doing my book tour for Dark Aeon. I was out in California. Hang on, hang on, hang on. We're gonna hold you over. You're gonna be here with us. We're gonna go to Korea first. But Joe, I know how you're easily led. That, that, that voice of that computer. She could lead that computer. That, that, that robot or whatever it was could lead you anywhere. Joe Allen, back off of. Drop it. Don't do it again. That's a warning. It may be an order, but it's a warning. Right now. The great Joe Allen, Dark Aeon is the book our editor for all things artificial intelligence. If you look at Axios the last couple of days, you know what you find? And people tell me, Joe Allen talked about this on War Room two years ago. Put up the warning flare on the most significant event of our time. The singularity. We're going to Korea to talk about the Chinese Communist Party in a coup over in Korea. Joe Allen's going to stick around with us. Jane Zirkel is going to be here. We're talking about Bernie Carrick and we're going to go track down Mike Davis and DC Drano all next hour in the War Room. There's a lot of talk about government debt. But after four years of inflation, the real crisis is personal debt. Seriously, you're working harder than ever and you're still drowning in credit card debt and overdue bills. You need Done With Debt and here's why you need it. The credit system is rigged to keep you trapped. Done With Debt has unique and frankly brilliant escape strategies to help end your debt fast so you keep more of your hard earned money. Done With Debt doesn't try to sell you a loan and they don't try to sell you a bankruptcy. They're tough negotiators that go one on one with your credit card and loan companies with one goal to drastically reduce your bills and eliminate interest and erase penalties. Most clients end up with more money in their pocket month one and they don't stop until they break you free from debt permanently. Look, take a couple of minutes and visit DawnWithDeckcom talk with one of their strategists. It's free, but listen up. Some of their solutions are time sensitive so you'll need to move quickly. Go to donewithdebt.com that's donewithdebt.com Stop the anxiety, stop the angst. Go to donewithdebT.com and do it today.

[Karl Rove]

To provide American made natural supplements without all the artificial nonsense.

[Victor Schwartz]

So unfortunately, as many of you know.

[Karl Rove]

A lot of these big corporate supplements will include things like preservatives, artificial ingredients and other additives that really aren't benefiting your health. So that's why we created Sacred Human.

[Victor Schwartz]

Really trying to fill this gap of.

[Karl Rove]

Quality supplements and of course the beef.

[Victor Schwartz]

Liver being our flagship products. For those who don't know, beef liver.

[Karl Rove]

Is loaded with highly bioavailable ingredients such as vitamin A, B12, zinc, CoQ10, etc. And because it is 100% grass fed and natural, your body is able to.

[Victor Schwartz]

Absorb these nutrients far better than taking.

[Karl Rove]

Any other synthetic multivitamin or any other synthetic vitamin in general.

[Victor Schwartz]

So we have some other amazing products, but if you'd like to check us.

[Karl Rove]

Out, you can go to sacredhumanhealth.com and.

[Victor Schwartz]

Cheers to your health.