Podcast Summary: Bannon’s War Room
Episode 4970: A Conversation With Sam Tanenhaus — Buckley: The Life and the Revolution That Changed America Pt. 2
Date: December 3, 2025
Host: Stephen K. Bannon
Guest: Sam Tanenhaus
Overview
In this wide-ranging conversation, Steve Bannon sits down with historian and journalist Sam Tanenhaus to discuss Tanenhaus’s new biography, Buckley: The Life and the Revolution That Changed America. The episode delves into pivotal mid–20th-century moments that shaped American conservatism, such as the Alger Hiss trials, Whitaker Chambers’ conversion from communism, early debates over Israel and neo-conservatism, and the emergence of William F. Buckley as a central intellectual figure. The dialogue threads together personal anecdotes, the evolution of conservative thought, and the intersections of politics, morality, and media.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
The Whitaker Chambers–Alger Hiss Affair
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Chambers’ Accusations and the Era of Slander
- (01:39) Sam Tanenhaus outlines how Chambers, a former communist turned Christian, accused several respected government officials of Soviet espionage, noting the seriousness of being labeled a communist in that period.
- Steve Bannon relates the personal and ideological battles of the Cold War era, emphasizing the spiritual and moral stakes.
“Chambers goes from a hardcore, if not Trotsky, you know, Marxist, Leninist, atheist, to a Christian, that his Christianity informs every movement of his life... This is what consumed post-war America... all the way through President Reagan's presidency.”
— Bannon (02:06) -
A Spiritual and Moral War
- (02:54) Both agree that the Cold War was, at its heart, a spiritual and moral conflict, not just a policy dispute.
- Tanenhaus recalls how such views were marginalized or scoffed at in the public square.
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Modern Echoes: Israel, Gaza, and the Right
- (04:15) Tanenhaus draws parallels to current debates over Israel, noting how skepticism toward Israel’s actions is sometimes smeared as anti-Semitic—a dynamic also present in earlier conservative debates.
“If you go back and look at the debate Pat Buchanan had… there are accusations that if you are skeptical of Israel and the way it's conducting this war right now in Gaza, you are anti-Semitic.”
— Tanenhaus (04:15) -
Pat Buchanan and Neoconservatism
- (06:02) Bannon probes why Buchanan’s opposition to the Gulf War was so controversial. Tanenhaus asserts that leading conservative intellectuals were, in fact, often sympathetic to Buchanan’s position, contrary to historical myth.
- Tanenhaus remembers Irving Kristol and Jeane Kirkpatrick supporting skepticism toward the war, and highlights how historical memory is often distorted.
“This idea… that intellectual elite declared war on Pat Buchanan over [the Gulf War]… is untrue. They agreed with him.”
— Tanenhaus (08:26) -
National Review and Early Conservative Attitudes toward Israel
- (09:36) Tanenhaus reveals National Review's early hostility toward Israel, quoting a 1956 article calling Israel "the first modern racist nation."
“National Review referred to Israel in 1956 as, quote, the first modern racist nation, unquote.”
— Tanenhaus (09:36)
The Evolution and Contradictions of William F. Buckley
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Buckley's Background and Early Influences
- (11:54) Discussion shifts to Buckley’s transformation from a Connecticut Catholic with Texas roots, and his avoidance—then acceptance—of military service.
- Tanenhaus provides rich anecdotal detail about Buckley’s upbringing, family religiosity, and the fish-out-of-water position of Catholics in WASP New England.
“Being an infantry officer... does transform him. And to be kind of more of a guy’s guy.”
— Bannon (12:18)"Across from the Buckley house is the oldest church in town... Down the street, the Methodist Little Lower Church. You have to go practically into a back alley to find the Catholic church. And that’s where the Buckleys worshiped.”
— Tanenhaus (13:05) -
Buckley and the Openness of National Review
- (10:53) Tanenhaus admires Buckley’s willingness to platform unconventional views, such as considering the Palestinian perspective in the 1950s.
“That’s why Buckley was great. He could open up… You think, make the good argument and I’ll run it.”
— Tanenhaus (11:12)
Hiss, Chambers, Nixon & the Power of Details
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Chambers’ Ordeal and Types of Smears
- (19:06) Bannon and Tanenhaus recount the tactics used against Chambers—alleging homosexuality, mental instability, or alcoholism—standard methods of character assassination in Soviet-influenced circles.
“There were three accusations that the party would use to smear somebody… One is to say he's a homosexual… Two, that he's mentally unstable. And three, he's an alcoholic.”
— Tanenhaus (19:06) -
The Birdwatching “Prothonotary Warbler” Detail
- (41:08) A small detail—mutual interest in birdwatching, specifically the prothonotary warbler—serves as a narrative turning point. It convinces investigators that the relationship between Hiss and Chambers is real, cracking open the case.
"Chambers said, Alger once got really excited when we saw a rare warbler, a prothonotary warbler... There's no way this guy [Chambers] makes up that Alger Hiss had seen this bird."
— Tanenhaus (41:08) -
Nixon the Outsider
- (32:09) Both discuss Nixon’s outsider status: denied elite positions despite academic achievement, Nixon identifies with overlooked Americans and pursues the Hiss case diligently.
“He’s got nothing going for him, but he's very, very smart and he has a great word. He says there’s something mouthy about Hiss.”
— Tanenhaus (33:02)
The Pumpkin Papers and the Dawn of a Political Era
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Discovery of Physical Evidence
- (46:44) The narrative climaxes with the discovery of the “pumpkin papers” on Chambers’ Maryland farm—microfilm hidden in a jack-o’-lantern, containing secret documents tying Hiss to espionage.
“He walks them out. It’s winter, it’s December now 48... Chambers takes him out to a pumpkin patch... And he pull[s]... tin canisters of microfilm that he's got from Alger [Hiss].”
— Tanenhaus (50:10) -
The Tragedy of History
- (46:47) Chambers’ testimony is depicted as a moment of personal tragedy, in which he testifies against a man he once admired in the name of higher morality.
“Chambers says... I knew Mr. Hiss and I liked him. I still like him. But he and I are caught in a tragedy of history, and so help me God, I have no choice but to testify now.”
— Tanenhaus (46:47)
Buckley’s Legacy and Tanenhaus’s Research
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Buckley's Literary Excellence
- (26:54) Tanenhaus expresses his appreciation for Buckley’s writing craft, recalling his own transformation from household skepticism to deep respect.
“I realized this guy’s like an exquisite writer. Why didn’t anybody tell me this?”
— Tanenhaus (26:54) -
The Importance of Teaching Historical Context
- (08:15) Bannon and Tanenhaus lament the lack of historical instruction on these events for young people and the hunger for this knowledge outside the academy.
“Remember, young people are thirsting for this information because none of this stuff is taught.”
— Bannon (08:15) -
Comparison to Robert Caro
- (24:37) Bannon compares Tanenhaus’s work to Robert Caro’s, praising its depth and narrative ambition.
Notable Reflections and Self-Positioning
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Nixon as Tanenhaus’s Favorite President
- (39:04) In a memorable exchange, Tanenhaus admits Nixon is his favorite president—citing Nixon’s outsider status and the empathy he elicits.
“People hate it when I say it, but it’s really true. Nixon's my favorite president.”
— Tanenhaus (39:04) -
Shifts in Political Culture and Tanenhaus’s Intellectual Journey
- (21:57) Bannon notes how unusual it is for a New York Times liberal to espouse such frank reassessments of Cold War history; Tanenhaus attributes his perspective to post–Soviet openness and diligent archival work.
Notable Quotes & Timestamps
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Spiritual War of the Cold War:
“It’s a spiritual war… It’s a moral war.”
— Bannon & Tanenhaus (03:02) -
National Review’s early take on Israel:
“National Review referred to Israel in 1956 as, quote, the first modern racist nation, unquote.”
— Tanenhaus (09:36) -
On Buckley’s openness:
“That’s why Buckley was great. He could open up… make the good argument and I’ll run it.”
— Tanenhaus (11:12) -
On smears against Chambers:
“There were three accusations… you're a homosexual… [mentally unstable] and… an alcoholic… They said this about Chambers.”
— Tanenhaus (19:06) -
Empathetic Testimony:
“I knew Mr. Hiss and I liked him. I still like him. But he and I are caught in a tragedy of history, and so help me God, I have no choice but to testify now.”
— Tanenhaus (46:47)
Important Timestamps
- Cold War as Moral & Spiritual Conflict: 02:54–03:14
- Reassessment of Gulf War and Israel: 04:15–10:53
- Buckley’s Upbringing and Class Position: 12:38–14:28
- Nixon’s Outsider Status and Hiss Case: 32:09–33:02
- Pumpkin Papers Discovery: 50:10–51:03
- Empathy in Chambers–Hiss Testimony: 46:44–46:47
- Tanenhaus’s Admiration for Nixon: 39:04–39:27
Tone and Style
The conversation is vigorous and wide-ranging, mixing incisive historical analysis with personal anecdotes, asides, and humor. Bannon’s tone is provocative and combative; Tanenhaus is measured, often reflective, bringing narrative detail and empathy to historical events, all while maintaining a scholarly but accessible style.
Conclusion
This episode offers a deep and highly engaging discussion of American conservatism’s origins, personalities, and philosophical battles, alive with insight for both seasoned political observers and newcomers. Through the stories of Whitaker Chambers, Alger Hiss, Richard Nixon, and William F. Buckley, the listener is invited to reconsider the roots of today’s political divides and the role of intellectual courage and moral conviction in public life.
For anyone seeking to understand the intellectual history of the American right—and its controversial, complicated legacy—this episode is essential listening.