Episode 5566: One On One With treasury Secretary Scott Bessent

Summary

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Bannon's War Room – Episode 5566

"One On One With Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent"
Date: August 4, 2026
Host: Stephen K. Bannon
Guests: Scott Bessent (U.S. Treasury Secretary), Natalie G. Winters

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Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth, commercial-free interview with U.S. Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent, offering a rare, unfiltered look at current economic policy under President Trump's administration. Secretary Bessent breaks down the latest economic data, the administration's "Trumponomics" plan, trade and tariffs, wage growth, reindustrialization, and deficit reduction efforts. Later, Natalie G. Winters delivers exclusive investigative reporting on foreign influence in U.S. voting systems and exposes high-level military and media figures' ties to Chinese Communist Party (CCP) influence operations.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Economic Overview: Wage Growth, Inflation & the End of the K-Shaped Economy

[00:01–02:52]

• Wage Gains at the Bottom:
  • Secretary Bessent reports, “The bottom quartile of wage earners have had year-over-year 5.5% wage gains, that's three times more than the top quartile.” (Bessent, 00:54)
  • Real wage gains for working Americans are resulting in improved affordability and optimism.
• Defeating the 'K-Shaped Economy':
  • Bessent claims the economy is now a “C-shaped” recovery, with the lower end “finally clawing it back just like they did in President Trump’s first term.” (Bessent, 02:25)
• Trump-Era Tax Policies:
  • Signature policies include no tax on tips/overtime, reduced taxes for seniors, and auto loan interest deductibility—all boosting working families.

2. Trumponomics: Return to 2019 and the Supply-Side Plan

[02:52–06:24]

• “Back to the Future” Economic Strategy:
  • The administration focused on recapturing the strong, inclusive growth seen before COVID in Trump's first term.
  • “In President Trump’s first term, hourly workers did better than supervisory workers. The bottom 50% of households had a bigger increase in net worth than the top 10%.” (Bessent, 05:18)
• Barbell Tax Cut:
  • Corporates get full expensing for capital expenditures; individuals get targeted tax relief.

3. Growth, Deindustrialization, and Reindustrialization

[06:24–09:53]

• Growth Targets:
  • Pre-Iran conflict, the economy “was growing at probably 4%,” aiming for a 3%+ target for the year. (Bessent, 07:14)
• Manufacturing Revival:
  • “I can snap my fingers and trade the yen, but I can’t snap my fingers and build a factory. What I can do is make the conditions for factory construction in the US the best possible in the world.” (Bessent, 08:03)
• Deregulation & Deindustrialization:
  • Spotlight on the EPA’s historic role in deindustrialization; praise for Lee Zeldin’s rapid deregulatory action.

4. Tariffs: Structure, Litigation, and Economic Impact

[09:53–14:57]

• Tariff Theory & Reality:
  • Bessent breaks down the legal tools: after the Supreme Court struck down the IEEPA tariffs, the administration pivoted to “Section 122” (10% global) and “Section 301” (targeted, durable tariffs).
• Tariff Wall:
  • Specific country deals (e.g., 15% EU, 19% Vietnam), industry tariffs (autos, steel), and an effective 45–48% tariff wall on China. (Bessent, 13:39)
• Tariffs & Inflation:
  • Bessent: “There are no facts that show … in the US the inflation has been service related and goods inflation is at zero. So you don't import your personal trainer … that's what's been driving inflation.” (Bessent, 14:57)

5. Elites, Betrayal, and Working-Class Anger

[15:45–18:06]

• Discussion of U.S. political elites, especially Democrats, as the architects of deindustrialization and “lying to working people.”
• Colorful anecdote about Senator Moreno highlighting luxury EV subsidies:
  • “They would come in and they were buying very expensive luxury cars and they're laughing at all of us. And these people were laughing all the way to the bank. How did Al Gore get a billion dollars?” (Bessent, 16:24)

6. What’s Left to Do in Trumponomics?

[18:06–20:37]

• Need to “get to the other side of the Iran conflict,” then “let it cook”—allow time for the macro effects of policy to settle in.
• Main Street Revival via Community Banks:
  • Focus on “no longer one size fits all” regulation.
  • “A $500 million community bank in small town America shouldn’t have the same regulations as Bank of America … They give a majority of small business loans in America.” (Bessent, 19:41)

7. Experience, Global Finance, and Preventing Contagion

[20:37–23:18]

• Bessent reflects on his decades in finance and learning from the 90s’ Asian crisis:
  • “The only thing good about being 63 and still standing is … you've seen a lot. The emergency is stopping an emergency.” (Bessent, 21:15)
• Philosophy: pre-emptive mitigation instead of waiting for crises to unfold.

8. Deficits, Debt, and Fiscal Policy

[23:18–25:55]

• Deficit has fallen from “6.7, 6.8% of GDP” in 2024 to “about 5.5%” in 2025; longer-term trajectory depends in part on post-war military spending. (Bessent, 23:18)
• Short-term deficit tolerated in favor of capital investment:
  • “You’re taking a hit on current tax revenue to build productive capacity to have more tax revenue. ... This is real productive capacity in the U.S. that’s what creates national wealth.” (Bessent, 25:16)

9. AI, Market Risk, and American Leadership

[25:55–29:41]

• AI Bubble?
  • Bessent argues hyperscalers (Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Meta) “have incredible cash flow … This isn’t pets.com. These are serious companies.”
• National Security & AI Leadership:
  • “The biggest single danger is that China gets ahead … their AI models are formed by distilling—which really means stealing.” (Bessent, 27:35)
• Benefit for Main Street:
  • “We’re going to see small business formation. We're already seeing it...” (refers to IRS data)
• Bessent concludes: “I sleep better being on the same side with them … And I also think that we are leading the AI race and it is very important to stay ahead.” (Bessent, 26:42–28:00)

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Segment – Natalie G. Winters: Foreign Influence and Espionage

[35:55–55:26]

10. Exposing Foreign Control over Voting Infrastructure

[35:55–41:44]

• Voting Security Bombshell:
  • New Jersey’s voter verification is operated by Idemia, a foreign (French) company also running TSA PreCheck and multiple DoD contracts.
  • Idemia’s private equity owner (Advent International) is deeply invested in China, partnering with CCP princelings.
  • “A foreign company is literally deciding who gets to vote and now all of a sudden conveniently is making mistakes allowing noncitizens to vote.” (Winters, 38:02)
  • The same tech is used in 36+ other U.S. states.

11. Buy American and Pentagon Procurement Loopholes

[41:44–44:00]

• Lax enforcement and loopholes in Buy American laws allow critical DoD and electoral services to foreign entities.

12. CCP Influence Operations: The Military Angle

[44:00–55:26]

• Operation "Sonya Initiative":
  • Former top U.S. generals and admirals (some named: Peter Pace, William Owens, John Abizaid, Jack Keane) created “secret backchannel[s]” with CCP military influence fronts (CAIFC, QCEF).
  • “CAIFC is literally a political warfare branch of the People's Liberation army that … [does] intelligence collection and conducting propaganda and perception management campaigns.” (Winters, 52:16)
  • Some went on to lobby for CCP companies (e.g., Huawei), write op-eds, consult, or open D.C. offices for Chinese contractors.
• Chilling Indictments:
  • Winters: “You cannot sit in a room with [the CCP] without being compromised—full stop.” (Winters, 54:54)
  • The segment denounces the selling out of national security for personal enrichment, implicating both military brass and the U.S. media.

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Notable Quotes

• Scott Bessent:

  • “The K-shaped economy is over … we're seeing more of a C economy where the lower end of wage earners are finally clawing it back.” (02:25)
  • “You don't import your personal trainer … that’s what’s been driving inflation.” (14:57)
  • “The emergency is stopping an emergency.” (21:15)
  • “You’re taking a hit on current tax revenue to build productive capacity to have more tax revenue.” (25:16)
  • “Their AI models are formed by distilling—which really means stealing.” (27:35)

• Natalie G. Winters:

  • “A foreign company is literally deciding who gets to vote … and their private equity backer is literally doing business with relatives of former leaders of the Chinese Communist Party.” (39:34)
  • “CAIFC is literally a political warfare branch of the People’s Liberation Army … you cannot sit in a room with them without being compromised—full stop.” (52:16, 54:54)
  • “These people need to be shamed into oblivion … It's gross.” (54:54)

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Timestamps to Key Segments

• [00:01] – Opening remarks on wage, shelter, and inflation data
• [03:55] – Trump’s economic plan and recovery from covid-era disruption
• [09:53] – Tariffs: implementation, court decisions, legal fallback strategies
• [14:57] – Do tariffs cause inflation? Bessent debunks notion
• [18:06] – Financial deregulation, Main Street banking revival
• [21:15] – Bessent’s lessons from global financial crises
• [25:55] – AI, CapEx, and national security
• [35:55] – Natalie Winters: foreign-controlled voter verification, Chinese influence
• [44:00] – CAIFC “backchannel” and U.S. generals' cooperation with CCP fronts
• [50:45] – Names of former U.S. military leaders involved in the initiative
• [52:16] – Winters on total compromise in CCP intelligence operations

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Memorable Moments

• Bessent’s robust defense of tariffs as non-inflationary and critical to reindustrialization.
• Vivid critique of elites’ betrayal of the working class and Senator Moreno's car dealership anecdote.
• Natalie Winters shocking revelations about foreign contractors in election infrastructure and DoD, and the covert relationships between top U.S. generals and CCP intelligence actors.
• Bannon’s dramatic close: “They always put it in some sort of, like, it’s always like some sort of Hello Kitty group which are undermining and committing treason against the United States.” (46:16)

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For Listeners New and Returning

This packed episode offers a sweeping look at the Trump administration’s economics—with specifics on how policy aims to favor workers, bring back manufacturing, and control deficits. The deep-dive with Natalie Winters highlights urgent national security issues around election security and influence operations. The show’s tone is urgent, combative, and sometimes deeply personal, with memorable behind-the-scenes anecdotes and strong criticism of political and corporate elites.

Skip to:

• [00:01–18:06] for Bessent on policy, tariffs, and the economy
• [35:55–55:26] for Natalie Winters’ exposé on CCP infiltration and U.S. security lapses

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Transcript

[Stephen K. Bannon]

To you that the underlying problem with shelter or with services or with wages, are there signs that maybe the good numbers we just saw on the past reports, will that continue even though oil's back up and give chair war some leeway in September?

[Scott Bessant]

Well, again, I don't think that chair wash or indeed the overall fomc. You got to remember Joe, when they raise rates here, if they raise rates, they're looking at long and variable lead times. So they've got to be thinking what, what's going on 9, 12, 18 months out. And I do think that there are a lot of things going on there. You know, we're seeing shelter owner's equivalent rent rents come down and that that's where core inflation is. And the, the media doesn't want to report it. But President Trump has done it again, same as he did in his first term. In the president's first term, hourly workers did better than supervisory workers. And now what we're seeing now is the bottom quartile of wage earners have had year over year 5.5% wage gains and that's three times more than the top quartil. Look, this inflation and this affordability crisis that the Biden era got us, you know, this big increase in our step function increase in price levels. There are two ways to combat that. There's you can they slow the inflation, which I do believe the core inflation is slowing. But for working Americans, real wage gains and you know, we, we can see that the bottom 25% of workers had a 2% wage gain. And with everything that we're seeing in the media is difficult to discern. But we think that the American people will be feeling that over time and they're also feeling the benefits of the working families tax cuts. I also oversee the IRS and 44% of American households had one of the president's signature policies, no tax on tips, no tax on overtime, reduced tax taxes for seniors on Social Security and deductibility of auto loans. So we are starting to see I got sick of hearing about this K shaped economy. I can say here definitively the K shaped economy is over and we're seeing more of a sea economy where the lower end of wage earners are finally calling it back just like they did in President Trump's first term.

[Steve]

Tuesday for August, year of Allure 2026. Nothing short of a star turn this morning by our former contributor, the Secretary of Treasury Scott Bessant on squawk box 35 minutes without commercial break we won't get that long but we're going to have it without Commercial break. Also, Secretary Bessant, here's I just want to make sure the audience understands this. I want to go back in time. You were an advisor to President Trump before the campaign, then on the campaign, then you were selected Secretary Treasury. You and President Trump have had an idea from the beginning to get back to the, to everything that converged together in the fall and Christmas of 2019. You talk about that a lot. Can you walk us through the original plan, including the supply side tax cut, everything you guys were focused on, how is that working through today, particularly as I think we're seeing a lot of green sprouts in the economy and it's kind of worked its way at least so far through the excursion we've had in the Middle east. Sir.

[Scott Bessant]

Steve, good to see, good to be back here on War Room. I missed miss you, miss the posse. It was great during the campaign when I was a little freer to speak. But that's a great question you ask. And what we're seeing in Trump, President Trump's second term is back to the future because in President Trump's first term, you know, you were, you were there, you were part of it. And then by January 2020, we had an amazingly strong economy. President Trump was probably up 8% in the popular polls nationally, which for an incumbent president, it was out of the park. Then Covid came. And what we've been trying to do is get back to that status. And I think we've done it in an even more powerful way here because the working families tax cut signed last July 4th not only had the corporate side, it's more of a barbell on this side. So, you know, on the corporate side, full, full expensing for equipment, for factories, for ag share structures. And then for working people on the individual side, no tax and tips, no tax and overtime, no tax on Social Security, deductibility of interest on auto loans for American made cars. And both of those have been very popular this year. So despite the rise in energy prices, we saw very large tax refunds. And so, you know, I think that those have been a very good bridge here. And as I said on the show this morning, President Trump's done it again because in his first term, working hourly workers did better than supervisory workers. The bottom 50% of households had a bigger increase in net worth than the top 10%. And what we've seen over the past year is the bottom 25% of wage earners. Their wages are up 5.5%, inflation's up 3.5 and I think we're going to see that coming back down. And that 5.5% is 3x what the top 25% of earners have had.

[Steve]

You also said the time you've always been someone that's supply side of focus on growth. You said, look, the problems we got, the deficits, the problems we have with all the embedded inflation from the, the Biden years, we're going to have to grow our way out of this. This was the whole structure of the tax cuts. It was also the forcing function of the tariffs to bring manufacturing jobs back here, also the part of the supply side to bring capital back and have companies invest over here. Do you think you're hitting the growth targets that you wanted? And if not, what has to be done on that to basically make sure wages keep in front in front of wage increases, keep in front of inflation and that we keep the deficits I think was under 6%. Was your. The target was 6. You want to take it down to 3. Do you feel you're accomplishing that with the growth we have now?

[Scott Bessant]

Look, I think we were growing at probably 4% before the president made the decision to go into Iran. And I think we can easily get back to 3, 3 for 3 for the year. And we're seeing across all parts of the economy that things are very strong. And we're seeing small business formation, we're seeing large companies pick up hiring and expansion. So I think we may see a drop in the unemployment rate and I think that, you know, manufacturing is back. A couple of my friends on the Democratic side when I go in for my hearings, well, you know, you promised a manufacturing revival and you can't have, look, I can snap my fingers and trade in the yen, but I can't snap my fingers and build a factory. What I can do is make the conditions for factory construction in the US the best possible place in the world. We can have tax certainty, regulatory certainty and energy certainty. And we are seeing company and the trade certainty with the tariffs and we are seeing factories come back and you initially see construction jobs that turn into good paying factory jobs. And that's exactly what we're seeing. We're seeing like if you, if you look in the data, it's under structures or non residential construction is off the chart. And Steve, to your point, the other thing that's happening is this deregulatory agenda that I did not realize before I came into government the US had made the decision to deindustrialize. You know, we often make fun. You do it, we do it a lot on the right for what the Europeans, specifically the Germans, who are manufacturing powerhouse, made the decision to de industrialize a lot of it through energy policy, through these ridiculous green policies. Well, we made the decision decades ago to deindustrialize and a lot of that was through environmental policy. When I talk to factories who want to come back, they say like the EPA drove us out. What can you do for us? And Lee Zeldin, president calls him rookie of the year in the Cabinet for everything he's doing. He's going as quickly as he can.

[Steve]

No, it's pretty extraordinary. What on the do you think the tariff situation, which is central and I tell people if you don't understand President Trump's theory of tariffs, you don't understand Trumponomics. Do you think given what the courts have done, you know, some of the pressure even coming from Capitol Hill, do you feel comfortable now that we're set into a terror? I just saw we did a courts transaction the other day on tariffs very focused on India. Do you feel comfortable that the tariff regulatory apparatus that we have right now is something that will, that will stick and it won't be, it won't be ripped away?

[Scott Bessant]

Yeah, look, I EAPA the International Emergency Economic Powers act or was worth trying and it gave the president instant negotiating leverage, which of course, you know better than anyone he likes. And I think we were able to strike the deals there. It's unfortunate that the Supreme Court, in what I thought was a flawed decision, said that it struck down the IPA tariffs, but we immediately fell back into what's called Section 122. That's a 10% global tariff. And then since then, USTR Ambassador Jamison Greer has been conducting what are called Section 301 Studies. And one of the studies has just happened. It's the use of forced labor. There's another one coming on over capacity. So basically the one for the use of forced labor put about a 12.5% global tariff. And you know, my strong inclination he's going to have to complete the study and I'll have to be put in place, is that the overcapacity tariffs will enable us, if successful, to get back to the exact tariff wall that we had. And if that happens, the Section 301 tariffs are very durable. They've had more than 5,000 legal challenges since pro President Trump's first term and have been successfully defended against them. And Steve, to be clear.

[Steve]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Scott Bessant]

One of the things that happened here, We've got the re industrialization of the U.S. but here at the U.S. treasury, I had 168 billion of tariff revenues that we're going to have to refund. When the Democrats scream, oh, the refund should go back to the American people. Well, the American people had it. It was in the US treasury and it was paying down the debt. And the other thing too is that I said that these lawsuits that the Democrats are doing are corporate welfare. And it turned out they were, that they wanted to refund the money to the corporations. So now the corporations have it. Some of them are using it to reduce prices, some of them are using it for hiring, but a lot of them are taking in the profits. And to be clear too, when, when I get these House or Senate members screaming, who pays the tariffs? Well, we sent $3 billion of tariff money back to Japan

[Steve]

on the Diepo was what we did first to get leverage and jump in. Obviously when the court came back and disagree with that. The three of ones though these will be, these studies will actually lay in and particularly the excess capacity or overcapacity is very much one of the issues with China and their state owned industries. But the 301s will you think, give us a floor of 12 and a half, 20%, whatever that is, that those will be the permanent tariff wall around the United States?

[Scott Bessant]

Yes. So the way for viewers to think about it is there are specific deals country by country, and that's what we negotiated last year and President Trump, it could be 15% for the EU, 15% with Japan, but then they commit to invest 550 billion into the U.S. you know, 19% for Vietnam. But on top of those tariffs are also industry specific tariffs. So for autos, for steel, for aluminum. So you know that a lot of those tariffs get stacked. So for instance, when we take the tariffs From President Trump's first term, plus the 20% that they have now, we get to about 45, 48% tariff on China.

[Steve]

Amazing. Can you put to bed also? You've been dealing with us now for over a year. When I cut on MSNBC and they had these people yammering about, oh, the inflation's, the tariffs are causing inflation. Can we put that to bed right now? Because I don't think there's any data out there supports that, sir.

[Scott Bessant]

Look again, everyone says to me, oh, you, you, you take either the journalists or the Democrats to the woodshed. I said like that. I like being fact based, Steve. As you know, and as you said, there are no facts that show that what we've seen over the past year is in the US the inflation has been service related and goods inflation is at zero. So you don't, you don't import your personal trainer, you don't import the babysitter, you don't import medical, you don't import your doctor. So that's, that's what's been driving inflation.

[Steve]

The I just want to make sure for go to the next topic is that the deindustrialization was done by the same elites in the same party there that were at the time supposed to represent working class people.

[Stephen K. Bannon]

Right.

[Steve]

This is one of the reasons the factories left, the high value added jobs left, the type of jobs that you can support a family on, all left and went to other places with less environmental controls, less labor laws, all of that. But that was done by a party that sat there and lied to working class people. I think it's one of the frustrations with working class people today is that they've been lied to so, so long by the elites in this country and particularly the Democratic Party. And you saw it after you got into treasury, correct?

[Scott Bessant]

Well, look, I saw it growing up. I saw that. I saw the textile industry in South Carolina get gutted. And it was funny. I went to right before what the Senate calls the bodarama for the working class families tax cuts, or the President likes to call it the one big beautiful bill. There were cuts on green subsidies, especially for the subsidy on EVs. That just went to high income people. And Senator Moreno, who's a firecracker and very funny, stood up and said, look, I'm not bragging. I used to be a luxury car dealer and 2/3 of my clients were people who ran these environmental scams. They would come in and they were buying very expensive luxury cars and they're laughing at all of us. And these people were laughing all the way to the bank. How did Al Gore get a billion dollars?

[Steve]

You've got, you've got the big beautiful bill which gave the supply side tax cut. You're on the path once again, President Trump, because it's undergirded by energy, full spectrum energy dominance. You're working the deregulation, the regulatory environment, particularly over at EPA with Zelda and of course across the board. We've got a tariff and a Plan now with 301s for tariffs to be in place. All the elements are coming together. What other action? Understand, you got to work that every day. You got to work the problem every day. When you look at the overall kind of battlefield and what you and President Trump have tried to do to get Trumponomics to work like it did in 2019, what else in your mind is left to do?

[Scott Bessant]

Well, we got to get to the other side of the Iran conflict and I think we're getting there. We've seen oil come trundling back down and we, we will get to the other side of that. And then Steve, at a point we just got to let it cook. We just got to let it cook that. You know, I think that the economy has great momentum and in my, in my old job I used to, we weren't particularly good at doing like detailed analysis. Non farm payrolls today are going to be this, the PCE is going to be that. But we took our cues from inside the stock market. And inside the stock market everyone likes to talk about, you know, AI and the AI bubble, but small cap stocks are doing very well, bank stocks are doing very well. And you know, I think that that's going to go down as one of the great victories for President Trump in this administration is the financial dereg and for the banking system getting small and community banks back to lending. I spend a lot of time with these bankers. I'm going to see them out in Arizona either tomorrow or Thursday. And that we saw after the financial crisis banks became, they used to say, too big to fail. Well, the small banks became too small to succeed. And we lost more than 50% of the small and community banks since the GFC. So we've got them working well capitalized. We've got a great controller, the occ, Jonathan Gould and he is tailoring bank regulations is no longer one size fits all. Bank of America has one set of procedures. A 300, $500 million community bank in small town America shouldn't have the same regulations, they don't have the same risk. And they know their customers, they know their community. They give a majority of the small business loans in America, the AG loans, the small commercial real estate loans. So we've really tried to have a Main street revival and part of that is going to be the small community and medium sized banks and paying attention to them again.

[Steve]

When President Trump, as he always does, was asking when you were being considered for treasury secretary and it was pretty consistent people saying hey, Scott Bessen is a safe pair of hands, understands global capital markets as particularly knows finance ministers all over because he's done this for 20, 30, 40 years. Talk about your experience, particularly like the crisis in the late 1990s. How does that inform your activities when people are talking about this situation with Japan and supporting the yen and how that plays back to support for the issuance of treasury notes, bonds and securities. Sir?

[Scott Bessant]

Yeah, Look, Steve, the only thing good about being 63 and still standing is, well, I get Social Security in 14 or actually the 12 and a half months. But the other good thing is you've seen a lot. And for now I can still remember it. And I remember the Asian financial crisis in the mid-90s like it was yesterday. And one of the things that triggered it was a very weak Japanese yen that then kind of caused a tsunami, the weak yen. Then Thailand couldn't compete, Indonesia, Malaysia, and now it would be Korea. So I remember, I don't know, one of the Democrats and I were going back and forth or maybe, well, same thing, but maybe it was somebody on one of the Sunday morning shows said, well, you're invoking iepo. What's the emergency? And I said, the emergency is stopping an emergency. And so that's kind of my motto in the markets and in life. We don't have to get to the crisis, let's remediate it early. And that's what we're trying to do here with our partners. In Japan,

[Steve]

you had hoped, you know, 3% target on the deficit was your hope. But there we had tons of potential waste, fraud and abuse that we thought we could get out of the system right away. However, Capitol Hill, we're still paying for a lot of that. The other was tariffs. We're going to generate a billion dollars or more. We were on the path of that. Then the courts interceded. So a lot of that money is getting returned. Now with the deficits you've gotten, how do you as Treasury Secretary handle roughly a $40 trillion debt, $9 trillion. So it has to be refinanced every year. And we still have these $2 trillion deficits. When you look out over the horizon and see this continuing, how is treasury going to handle that?

[Scott Bessant]

Well, Steve, we actually, one thing we didn't get any credit for at all was the deficit. Calendar year, not fiscal year, calendar year 2024 was about 6.7, 6.8% of GDP, highest it ever been when we weren't at war, weren't in a recession. And we got it down to 2025, about 5.5%. And so we were on the slope downward toward my something with a three in front of it by the end of the President's term, obviously with the military spending for the Iran conflict. And then the President upsized the military spending for the redo of the military because I think that he, Secretary Hegseth were shocked when they got in in terms of the neglect that had gone on during the Biden administration. But if we put just the one time increase in the military to the side, I do think that we can continue on this path. And this year, aside from the military spending, we will either be flat on the deficit or slightly up. And I'm not that bothered or I'm not as bothered by it because a lot of the, or one of the reasons we're not making progress on the deficit is the full expensing for equipment factories and ag structures that, that is creating more productive capacity. So you are, you know, I call it, you're pulling back the rubber band and creating this productive capacity that's going to give us more sustainable tax revenues over the future. So you know, you're taking a little hit up.

[Steve]

You're, you're taking, you're, you're taking a hit on current tax revenue to build

[Scott Bessant]

productive capacity to have more tax revenue.

[Steve]

Yep.

[Scott Bessant]

Yeah. Then you also create a whole bunch of jobs so you know, it's really win win and you just postpone. So if 26 is flat to slightly up, this isn't wasteful social spending. This isn't the, you know, the Giving Stacey Abrams $2 billion when she's never had more than 300 in her bank account. So this is real productive capacity in the U.S. that's what creates national wealth and that gets us in great shape for 27, 28.

[Steve]

I notice I've seen the Secretary of Treasury, your billet in a lot more of these documents on AI since supposedly you had a meeting, you and the chair of the Federal Reserve had a meeting with Jamie Dimon, some of the other money center banks during I guess the week of the IMF and the Semaphore Conference. They talked about some of the concerns they have with some of these AI models and maybe can be disruptive to money center banks. One of my concerns is that this whole entire AI business model we have, we have kind of a highly leveraged bet because we're highly leveraged in the US High leverage bet on a highly leveraged bet. Does that concern you? The leverage of these companies and the CapEx and what's the return on CapEx? Are they going to be able to pay for this or do you, do you go to sleep at night comfortable with that? Because once again, you're a pretty safe pair of hands.

[Scott Bessant]

Yeah. So the way I look at it, and I lived through the 90s and that turned into, that actually created a lot of productive Capacity in terms of a lot of the office equipment had been around for a long time and the local area networks people started integrating those in the Internet, obviously. And that stock market was extremely speculative. What we're seeing here is the so called hyperscalers, but really Microsoft, Amazon, Google, Metta to some extent Oracle who are spending this money, they have incredible cash flow and look, I'm going to leave it to them to decide whether they're going to get a return on that. I think they know better than I do this isn't like some, this isn't pets.com or whatever foodwagon.com kind of thing. So these are serious companies, people who built serious wealth. And like these Google guys, I imagine they probably got 90 something percent of their net worth still in their companies. Mark Zuckerberg, same way. So you know, I sleep better being on the same side with them. And I also think that we are leading the AI race and it's very important to stay ahead. President asked me to when we were at the G7 in France, President asked me to give a few words to the world leaders and one of them said, well, what do you think the biggest danger from AI is? And I think one of them, I think they thought I was going to say, well, some kind of harm to young people or something to the financial system. And I said, look, the biggest single danger is that China gets ahead because I deal with these, the folks every day. Steve, you have a long history and the reason that they are willing to have a discussion on AI with us is because we do have the lead and I think we will stay ahead because their AI models are formed by distilling, which really means stealing. And so you can't really ever if someone's looking over my shoulder and copying my homework, they can't do better than I do. And if they don't get all the homework, then they're behind me. But I think there's going to be transformative. And the good thing for Main street, which is what I think about a lot, is I think we're going to see small business formation. We're already seeing it. I have the honor of running the IRS until we get a commissioner in and we can see.

[Steve]

Mr. Secretary, can you hang on just for one second? Take a short commercial break. We'll return to the Treasury Department. Secretary treasury next.

[Stephen K. Bannon]

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[Steve]

It's too late.

[Stephen K. Bannon]

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[Steve]

The secretary is good enough to give us 30 minutes right after the market close. Good on you his Twitter. He had to bounce his Twitter. Treasury Secretary Scott Besson at Sec. Scott Besant. Can we put that up? Denver sex Scott Besant on Twitter That's Sec. Scott Besant. Want to thank the secretary for, for spending time with us. Obviously what he said I thought was very interesting. We want to get ahead of emergencies. That's why they're doing what they're doing in Japan. And Scott has been on Wall street since 84 and really been kind of a major force or one of the people working with some of the most important people in the world starting in the late 80s, early 90s. He was there for the entire Thai baht. We talked about yesterday the Thai baht crisis that led into the collapse of Long Term Capital Management. What you don't want to have is contagion like with this AI hedge fund run by a 24 year old whiz kid that got leveraged up 400% and, and then collapsed overnight. And then you had the Japanese situation markets on fire today. And Scott Besson, you know, Scott got a plan and the plan is working and they're sticking to it. He says you got to give it a little time to gestate. Of course we've had the excursion and he's upfront about how the excursion has kind of taken them off track but they're going to stick to the plan. The five part plan they had of deregulation, you know, tax supply side tax cuts, full spectrum energy dominance, deregulation and of course a tariffs. Now they have a tariff wall. Take your phone at Bannon 989-898 Birch Gold. You get all access to how do you invest in gold and precious metals in the age of Trump? Most importantly, get to talk to Philip Patrick and the team. That's what you need to do now more than ever. A still point attorney world in a time of turbulence. As Scott said, you know, take the emergency and get ahead of the crisis. Deal with the emergency and get ahead of the crisis. Very powerful. Want to thank Secretary Treasury Besant. We miss him. Good to have him back on here. Natalie G. Winters. Natalie, your substack ma'.

[Stephen K. Bannon]

Am.

[Steve]

When you get those to me, my head blows up every time. It's so blatant and so egregious. Your investigative reporting, so great. But then I ask myself, I go, why is it just Natalie G. Winters that does this all the time? This information, you got to dig for it, you got to work for it, but it is out there. Can you tell us the latest and particularly how this ties into what the President and Bill Pulte and John Solomon are doing and the Democrats absolute assurance that just cause there's 278,000 foreign nationals and illegal aliens on four states voter

[Stephen K. Bannon]

rolls registered to vote.

[Steve]

It doesn't mean nothing to see here, ma'. Am.

[Natalie G. Winters]

Well, it's always an honor to be in the war room, but especially after Secretary Scott Besant is on, we have two stories that I think converge quite nicely with what President Trump talked about and his obviously historic speech. One has to do with the non citizen voting and the other has to do with basically all the way to the highest levels this time when it comes to the United States government, not just journalists and propagandists, but being directly embedded, having financial ties to the Chinese Communist Party, particularly their espionage fronts and propaganda apparatus. But to stop start with what is just an absolute bombshell. I know there's been a lot of discussion about the 6600 or so non citizen registered voters in New Jersey. And there's been so much discussion, even, you know, senators and the governor there have weighed in saying, oh my gosh, how could this happen? But really a glaring, I think error from the get go here that warrants further investigation. And frankly, the canceling of contracts. Is that the actual company that is responsible for verifying the identities of voters there. So right. Interfacing between the dmv, the motor voter stuff is a company called Edemia. People may have seen the logo. It's the same company that runs TSA PreCheck. They actually run a lot of the CBP's biometric entry exit stuff. They have extensive contracts with the Department of Defense. Except one glaring thing here, Steve. It's a foreign company. It's a foreign company. It's headquartered in France. There's nothing American about it. Why a foreign company is allowed to have any influence, let alone dispute.

[Steve]

Hold it, hold it. Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. Go through that punch list. What do they run?

[Natalie G. Winters]

TSA PreCheck, CBP biometric entry, Exit Mission, and tons of DoD identity verification programs and a host of other federal contracts like that is their business.

[Steve]

Hang on, hang on.

[Stephen K. Bannon]

You're telling me the Department of War,

[Steve]

the Department of War's verification ID Verification program program is run by a foreign entity that can't you. Come on, it can't be.

[Stephen K. Bannon]

That's too good.

[Natalie G. Winters]

You have Chinese engineers at Microsoft running their, you know, combatant programs. It's not that far off, but yes. And they run the same program that led to this New Jersey mishap. We'll Be euphemistic. They run the same tech in 36 other states. So again to emphasize, I know this is like it's not necessarily a buried lead because it's so obvious, but it's a foreign company that is literally deciding who gets to vote and now all of a sudden conveniently is making mistakes allowing non citizens to vote. But where this gets even more interesting is that the private equity fund behind it is a firm called Advent International. They're based in Boston. But the company that actually runs this, like the people who are doing the dirty work, the tech stuff, they are foreigners. They are foreign nationals, probably French, realistically, probably Indian. But this firm since the 90s has invested billions of dollars in China. They have a massive portfolio there. So much so that they even work alongside. They partnered with a firm called Boyu Capital which was actually co founded by a grandson of the former Chinese President and Communist Party leader Jiang Zemin. So just to run that through one more time, the company that is responsible for registering noncitizens to vote in New Jersey is a foreign company whose private equity backer is literally doing business with relatives of former leaders of the Chinese Communist Party.

[Steve]

No, I mean the most senior of the leaders of the CCP and Advance had a reputation for decades of being one of the initial investors, private equity investors into Chinese companies in the Chinese mainland which as you know, makes, makes you business partners with the ccp, ma'. Am.

[Natalie G. Winters]

Well, and I would also add too, you know, I'm sure Ms. Now is already prepping their, you know, conspiracy theory attacks on this new unfound baseless thing. But when you take this into consideration, right, with Article 7 of China's National Intelligence Law, where essentially any business over there as a dormant state owned enterprise can be requisitioned by the state to achieve anything that the Chinese Communist Party deems of interest to their national security, let alone their regulations and just the chokehold that they have over these American companies, the market, greed and lust alone, but just the regulations that they have on these companies. This is obviously a glaring national security threat. Even if it were the UK running this, there should be no foreign involved involvement, let alone who's deciding who's to run elections. But the bigger thing here is that they're running so many federal contracts all the way up to DoD identification,

[Scott Bessant]

you

[Steve]

are in the process of becoming an expert on Department of War procurement. Let me ask you, do they even have. I'm kind of shocked, particularly when I was in the Pentagon, I shocked that they even had the ability to, to contract Some of these, some of these contracts to foreign entities, is that because this all based on low bid? Are they under some sort of regulatory restrictions that they're forced to use a

[Stephen K. Bannon]

foreign contractor for something so sensitive?

[Steve]

Or is this just simply that they think they can do a better job and so they.

[Stephen K. Bannon]

I thought we had all these restrictions on Buy American.

[Steve]

I know we have Buy American as far as products go, but services also in some of these services that they provide to the Department of War. Does the Department of War have flexibility on this? Are they forced to do this? And if they have flexibility, why are they choosing foreign companies?

[Natalie G. Winters]

Well, I think this links quite nicely to the other story which you're going to see how people all the way up to the levels, including former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, are literally working with these Chinese Communist Party influence groups. You wonder why we keep getting into all these kinetic conflicts where we're draining our weapons and stockpiles our munitions and ammo, basically giving the PRC just even more of an advantage if anything were to go down in and around Taiwan. Steve, it's dependent kind of per what they're actually sourcing with the contract stuff that is directly involved with American troops. What they're doing on the ground are supposed to be done completely here in the United States. There's the physical side where it gets hard. For example, there are just like no companies that produce steel in America anymore. It's pretty crazy when you look at what the country used to do with regard to manufacturing. So there are some elements. Obviously you've seen a whole movement of re industrialization kicking up, but it's quite difficult to source certain components from the United States, the rare earths, all that stuff. But there are loopholes where sometimes if there are certain contracts, you can outsource it to foreigners, which is absolutely mind boggling. Obviously a lot of it is the, you know, weird offshoring to India. But as we saw not too long ago, the Pentagon did swoop in when there was a contract that was given to Microsoft where it turned out that Chinese nationals were doing the work on it. Might I also add Microsoft, the same company that literally created Windows China Government Edition, which the China's Chinese Communist Party literally administers their country from that technological backing. So Steve, even if we're not inviting these people in to directly run these contracts, the IP theft, we've basically given them the keys to the kingdom, right, by doing all these joint ventures and collaborations, it's all basically just a euphemistic excuse to steal IP so they can do stuff like this, but we're, I guess, dumb enough to invite them in to run it. We'll probably run into the next break if we have time. But obviously people remember the story that I broke, what was it last week, talking about how that one group, qcef, was paying these journalists for favorable coverage about China. They were taking them on trips overseas and you could see after they came back, they were shilling Chinese propaganda, plain and simple. Well, the same group, but in conjunction with a group called caifc, that's the China association for International Friendly Contact, which is even more explicitly part of China's military apparatus. It's part of basically the PLA's Political Warfare Department. They do joint espionage and intel collecting, but also from a military standpoint, getting people to push info ops on the American people. And they were running basically the same exact program, not just with idiot schmuck journalists, but with former chairmans of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, vice chairmans, former COCOM commanders, commanders of Pacific Command, Chief of Naval Operations. I have the name. We can read it after the break. But they were basically taking these people over as a program called the Sonya Dialogue, the Sonia Initiative. It started in 2008. They were meeting with the highest levels in American government, too. You have pictures of them with Hillary Clinton, a lot of the people who were involved. So again, these are not like military commentators. These are people who literally ran the theaters of war that the Chinese Communist Party wants to understand what our, you know, coa, our course of action is, were anything to break out. These are the people who are literally interacting with a spy front. They that has been caught up in the same schemes where they are literally buying this information off of people and these people literally later go to jail. But this is something that, like I was saying, has gone on for nearly two decades. They've even gotten up to the U.S. naval Academy. We've had some of the leaders of the CMC up and around there talking with people. But Steve, it's important. There's two parts to the story. One is the public facing stuff, right where they do the mill to mill exchanges. And it's all happy, which I would argue there's no such thing as happy collaboration with the Chinese. But then there's the darker secret side to this, which is that these names weren't published. And these are people, including former vice chairmans of the Joint Chief of Staff, Admiral Bill Owens will make him famous, who literally became a consultant for Huawei after participating in this, helped try to bid for contracts and help them gain a foothold in America, to get their product here, literally was writing op eds called America must start treating China as a friend. That's your former vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. And there are about two dozen people who are all a part of this. The highest levels of the US Military.

[Steve]

Hang on. We're gonna get down in Nathan, now that you get my head blown up again. Plus, I want to give the the group's name, you know, the Joint Society for happy Efforts. They always put it in some sort of, like, it's always like some sort of hello Kitty, you know, group which are undermining and committing treason against the United States.

[Natalie G. Winters]

You know, they got to keep it happen.

[Steve]

Hello Kitty. Okay, Natalie, on the other side. Short break.

[Stephen K. Bannon]

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[Steve]

You will not regret it.

[Stephen K. Bannon]

War room. Here's your host, Stephen K. Ban

[Scott Bessant]

over

[Steve]

the White House right now. I think they're wrestling with the executive order. They're working on executive orders about artificial intelligence. Next hour. I'm going to spend the entire hour with Tristan Harris, one of the leaders of the pro human movement going to talk about a new film that's coming up, but part of this movement to make sure that we have total accountability on artificial intelligence, every aspect of it. A fascinating individual, met him through Joe Allen. All the what all the great work that Joe Allen is doing. So stick around. The next hour is going to be pretty and guarantee it's going to be pretty intense. Remember Scott Besson said, hey, deal with the emergency to get ahead or avoid the crisis. End of the Dollar Empire Understand what we're talking about, why gold has been a hedge against fiat currency for thousands of years, why it's important today, why it's important to understand gold and where it sits in global capital markets. Birchgold.com Bannon Endothedollar Empire Everything Birch gives you is totally free. All the information, all the end of the dollar empire, all of its, you know, portfolios they hand out to think through. How do you invest in gold and precious metals today? No obligation, totally free. Birchgold.com Bannon Endothedollar Empire or just simply Bannon@989898 the key thing is to get to Philip Patrick and his team and Philip is going to join us a little later in the week. And once again want to thank Secretary Bessen for spending 30 minutes with here on the afternoon worm after markets close, which is always a quite busy time for the Treasury Secretary. Natalie, it's outrageous. The journalists did it and of course,

[Stephen K. Bannon]

none of them denied it.

[Steve]

They all tried to spin it. Well, I was just trying to find out more about a fascinating culture. None of them fessed up to the fact that they're they're useful idiots to a murderous regime. But what is most disturbing is when people in uniform do it. They've taken an oath to uphold the Constitution and they understand the existential threat that is the Chinese Communist Party. Go ahead. Once you, once you give us a few names, man, let's make a few people famous.

[Natalie G. Winters]

Yes. Quick caveat, Steve. These names were not ever publicized. Right. These are from brochures, Chinese language brochures buried in pages that we were never supposed to find. That I will say, Steve, after we've made Q stuff really famous now their website doesn't really work anymore. It's interesting how that works. But in this case, here are the people that we want to make famous. That's General Peter Pace, the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral William Owens, the former vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General John Abizade, former commander of US centcom, General Raymond Odierno, former Army Chief of Staff Admiral Jonathan Greenert, former Chief of Naval Operations Admiral Timothy Keating, former commander of U.S. pacific Command, General Ronald Fogelman, former Air Force chief of staff General Dennis Reamer, former Army Chief of Staff Admiral Joseph Kerr, former commander of U.S. pacific Command, General John Keane. Yes, that's Jack Keane of Fox News. So take that, former Vice Chief of Staff of the Army, General Walter Sharp, former commander of U.S. forces Korea, General Charles Jacoby, former commander of U.S. northern Commander.

[Steve]

This is a, you are, you are literally going through a who's who of some of the most respected military, both Navy, Army, Marine Corps and I think some Air Force. Once again, just give the audience what have these folks done? And of course they haven't advertised. It's all in Chinese language. What have they done to compromise the security of the United States of America?

[Natalie G. Winters]

They have worked hand in glove, forming a secret back channel that makes Mark Milley look like child's play with a group the CAIFC and qcef. That's the pay for play chirp group. Group CAIFC is literally a political warfare branch of the People's Liberation army that plays according to the US Government, dual roles of intelligence collection and conducting propaganda and perception management campaigns. After meeting with the prc, obviously they had these back channels. God knows what they shared with the Chinese Communist Party. Some people explicitly ended up on their payroll lobbying for Chinese Communist Party owned companies, shilling them in the press. But these are people who for years have met secretly with Chinese Communist Party the highest levels of their military officials. Steve, I don't want to hear it from these people that it was about, oh, mutual understanding. Because you know what, where the United States stands right now when it comes to our military footing against the Chinese Communist Party. It's pretty abysmal. You see, these are all the same voices that pushed for us to get into these kinetic combats God knows where abroad. Deplete our weapons, deplete our stockpiles, give the Chinese Communist Party a leg up. These are the people who say, oh, nothing's going to happen in Taiwan. We'll just automatically have military sensitive supremacy. And these are the same type of people, Steve, you see it every few months. There's always an indictment about someone who's working for some federal agency or the military and they're selling over documents. Sometimes it's people who are literally just accessed via LinkedIn, a simple DM. They get a couple thousand bucks. It's abysmal the prices these people will sell out for and they hate President Trump. None of these people see if you want to understand why there's been such a quiet when it comes to the media about Chinese influence in our elections? And you think any of these people are going to comment on that? No way. They're in on the take. And they make so much money from these weird shady firms, their spouses end up on the payroll. They all start these shady consulting firms helping Chinese businesses gain a foothold in the United States. It's absolutely disgusting and there's absolutely no justification for it. The Chinese Communist Party, the way they do their intel collection, the way they work with espionage and propaganda. You cannot sit in a room with them without being compromised. Full stop. End of sentence, end of story. And these people who spent their entire careers learning how political warfare works by the Chinese Communist Party, it is literally like they are sitting there, Steve, like prostitutes begging for cash from the Chinese Communist Party, saying, hey, what do you want to know about what our plan is in some theater of war for. Oh, let me guess, probably around Taiwan. And it's disgusting. They helped connect them to government officials and they're literally talking about mill to mill exchanges with the Chinese Communist Party. Here's the difference. In one room, on one side you have Chinese spies. On the other side, you have greedy, lustful for capital and trying to feel important. Former American generals who just want to sell out, sabotage the American. The United States of America for some consulting fees for Huawei. That's not a fair match, obviously. It's mismatched motives and it's absolutely disgusting. These people need to be shamed into oblivion because this is. It's gross and we need.

[Steve]

We need more than that. Where they go for your substack and social media, ma'. Am. This is a hot one.

[Natalie G. Winters]

Natalie Gwenter, substack.com Read the names and Twitter. Natalie Gwenters. Thank you, Steve, for having me. I appreciate it.

[Steve]

Okay. We will have a long conversation after the show about your security. Natalie. Winners going into deeply uncharted waters. You are amazing. Thank you, Natalie. We'll make sure this gets pushed out. You thought Wall street and the corporations and the tech bros, that. And we're going to talk about this next. About this whole thing about. About if you're against data centers or if you want to actually think through AI and have a few, you know, mandatory control controls on it. Are you pushing the CCP's agenda? Far from it. We're going to talk to an expert next. Tristan Harris, short commercial break. We will be back in the worm in just a moment.

[Stephen K. Bannon]

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