WarRoom Battleground EP 1017: Bay Of Pigs 2.0

Summary

Podcast Summary: Bannon’s War Room Battleground EP 1017: Bay of Pigs 2.0

Date: May 26, 2026
Host: Steve Bannon
Guest: Sam Tanenhaus (author, journalist, former editor of The New York Times Book Review)

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Overview

This episode of War Room Battleground dives into the intersections of American conservatism, culture, and Cold War history, with Steve Bannon hosting acclaimed writer and historian Sam Tanenhaus. The discussion centers around Tanenhaus’s new paperback release on William F. Buckley Jr., insights into Whitaker Chambers, the politics of literary recognition, cultural polarization, and the far-reaching implications of the Cuban Revolution and Bay of Pigs through the eyes of Buckley and contemporary commentary. The episode also threads Buckley’s personal ties to historical players, and examines the increasingly rare ability to write empathetic, nuanced biographies across ideological lines.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Personal Side of Literary Icons

• Book Signing Anecdotes
  • Steve Bannon and Sam Tanenhaus share stories about signed books, literary heroes, and marking up texts as readers and writers.
  • Tanenhaus tells a touching story of meeting his literary idol John Updike and having him sign a "Rabbit" novel—even though Updike almost forgot the political leanings of his own characters.
    • "The writers you discover when you're really young are the ones who stay with you." (Sam Tanenhaus, 02:52)

2. Writing about the Right—From the Heart of the Left

• Empathy Across Political Divides
  • Bannon probes how a "progressive liberal secular Jew" like Tanenhaus, who ran the New York Times Book Review, wrote such empathetic books about conservative icons (Whitaker Chambers and William F. Buckley Jr.).
  • Tanenhaus laments that today’s cultural polarization makes it "impossible" for writers on the left to grant conservatives intellectual complexity or humanity.
    • "You like these guys." (Bannon, 07:13)
    • "Oh, yeah. Well, they're great men..." (Tanenhaus, 07:14)
  • Both agree cultural gatekeeping now prevents cross-ideological works from getting serious attention or awards.
    • "People just won't listen." (Tanenhaus, 09:01)

3. Literary Politics: Awards & Censorship

• The Whitaker Chambers Prize Controversy ([12:14])
  • Tanenhaus recounts how a judge on a major book award committee refused his Chambers biography the prize because of political bias, regardless of its factual accuracy.
    • "I don't care what the facts are, we're not giving the prize to that book." (Tanenhaus quoting a judge, 13:09)
  • They discuss how, today, even well-researched, sympathetic biographies of Buckley or Chambers would be considered unacceptable in elite literary circles, while works exposing right-wing extremists are celebrated.

4. The American Right & the Cuban Revolution—Lessons for Today

• Contextualizing Cuba: Buckley, Castro, and the Cold War
  • Tanenhaus details how Buckley, informed by his father’s experience in the Mexican Revolution, quickly saw through the romantic liberal embrace of Castro, seeing the anti-clericalism and Communist core.
    • "Buckley thinks that liberals are misreading Cuba... what you think is a social revolutionary is a bandit who's murdering people." (Tanenhaus, 16:19)
  • They contrast contemporary media's initial celebration of Castro (including Harvard’s embrace and The New York Times) with Buckley’s skeptical, hardline view.
    • "I'd sooner be governed by the first 2,000 names in the Boston telephone directory than by the faculty of Harvard University." (Bannon quoting Buckley, 18:17)

5. The Bay of Pigs and the Kennedy Era

• Planning, Failure, and Conspiracy
  • Bannon and Tanenhaus meticulously reconstruct the Bay of Pigs timeline—Eisenhower's planning, Kennedy's (reluctant) execution, CIA manipulation, and the myth of spontaneous uprising.
    • "We're going to land this counterrevolutionary force... and it's going to be an immediate uprising of the Cuban people... Just. All I got to do is read Bill Buckley." (Bannon, 32:03)
  • They outline how the failed invasion sowed deep distrust, leading to a series of purges and a rift between Kennedy and the intelligence community.
    • "He fired them all... That begins the deep state's move on Jack Kennedy." (Bannon, 34:32)

6. Buckley, the CIA, and Cultural Loyalty

• Espionage, Loyalty, and the Buckley Mystique
  • Details on Buckley’s personal CIA service, his close ties to E. Howard Hunt and support after Watergate—Buckley’s loyalty stood out even as Hunt was abandoned by all others.
    • "Buckley was very personally loyal... and he helped Howard Hunt out all his life." (Tanenhaus, 39:37)
    • "Buckley paid all of Howard Hunt's legal bills himself." (Tanenhaus, 41:16)
  • Discussion of how Buckley’s CIA training became the foundation for his Blackford Oakes spy novels—a “sophisticated American James Bond.”
    • "He really wanted to have it remain the film..." (Bannon, 44:50)

7. Literary Recognition Versus Cultural Bias

• Reception, Readership, and What Remains
  • Tanenhaus and Bannon agree that his biographies offer modern readers the best window into the American conservative movement, precisely because of his outsider status and ability to write with empathy.
    • "Years from now, the only books anyone will read to learn about the conservative movement are these two biographies." (Michael Lind, via Tanenhaus, 48:03)
  • Bannon contends that only an "outsider" immersed in the liberal culture could write such honest, detailed biographies of Buckley and Chambers.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Empathy in Biography:

  • "It's impossible... you almost can't make the case for not even the other side, somebody outside your little circle now.” (Tanenhaus, 10:28)

• On Literary Awards & Political Gatekeeping:

  • "I don't care what the facts are, we're not giving the prize to that book." (Tanenhaus quoting a prize judge, 13:09)

• On Buckley’s Intellect and Charm:

  • "Why do you think they all were friends with Buckley? ... Isn't it possible they thought he was smart and funny and kind and warm and generous?" (Tanenhaus, 09:18)
  • "Years from now, the only books anyone will read to learn about the conservative movement are these two biographies." (Michael Lind via Tanenhaus, 48:03)

• On American Foreign Policy Missteps:

  • "They had 1,200... of these Cuban exiles. Castro's waiting for them. And yeah, they think, well, they must hate Castro as much as we do." (Tanenhaus, 32:53)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:11] — Tanenhaus on John Updike, literary heroism, and signed books.
• [07:14] — Discussing cross-ideological empathy in literature.
• [13:09] — Political bias in literary awards ("I don't care what the facts are...").
• [16:19] — Buckley’s perception of Castro and Cuba after the revolution.
• [18:17] — Harvard, Castro’s “star power,” and the "charisma" concept.
• [23:25] — Buckley’s warning about Soviet missiles in Cuba, predicting the missile crisis.
• [32:03] — Bay of Pigs, U.S. intervention, and failed expectations of Cuban uprising.
• [34:32] — Kennedy’s firing of CIA leadership post-Bay of Pigs.
• [39:37] — Buckley, the CIA, and personal loyalty to Howard Hunt.
• [44:50] — The Blackford Oakes novels and possible film adaptations.
• [48:03] — Michael Lind’s praise for Tanenhaus’s biographies as historical benchmarks.

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Conclusion

The episode weaves together the personal, political, and cultural intricacies of mid-20th-century conservatism, spotlighting the lives of Buckley and Chambers while exploring the evolving nature of American polarization in both politics and literature. Through Tanenhaus's unique position—admiring and chronicling conservative icons from a liberal milieu—the show surfaces profound questions about empathy, memory, and the meaning of loyalty, all anchored by a rich recounting of Cold War drama from Havana to Harvard, Watergate to modern culture wars.

For more information:

• Visit SamTanenhaus.com for more on his work or to buy his books.
• Paperback of the Buckley biography releases early June.

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Transcript

[Steve Bannon]

This is the primal scream of a dying regime. Pray for our enemies because we're going medieval on these people. Christians. I got a free shot. All these networks lying about the people. The people have had a belly full of it. I know you don't like hearing that. I know you try to do everything in the world to stop that, but you're not going to stop it. It's going to happen.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

And where do people like that go to share the big lie? MAGA Media.

[Steve Bannon]

I wish in my soul, I wish

[Sam Tanenhaus]

any of these people had a conscience. Ask yourself, what is my task and

[Steve Bannon]

what is my purpose?

[Sam Tanenhaus]

If that answer is to save my country, this country will be saved.

[Steve Bannon]

War Room. Here's your host, Stephen K. Banner. Okay, welcome. You're in the War Room. And we have one of our favorite people in Rancon, Sam Tenenhaus joins us with the bucket book. Now, listen, as much as we humped the hard back of a book, that's not ours, and we just love it. And we love you as a writer. Hey, as hard as we humped it, I never got a signed copy of the hardback. But you did come in today. You're very gracious. You're very gracious to sign the copy of the new paperback that's out.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Well, is this my.

[Steve Bannon]

Is this my consolation prize? I get a copy. I get a signed copy. A Santana House first edition signed copy of the Buckley book would have been something that, I don't know, would have had some real value on ebay.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Well, let me. Let me give you that one then. I didn't know you wanted it.

[Steve Bannon]

See, I'm so. Actually, as I. I feel very uncomfortable. I don't get to have authors sign books because I mainly, you know, in paperback, I never have that because I like marking my books up, even the hard copy of books. I did mark up the first copy of Buckley I got it, marked it up for our first conversation with it over a couple hours. Have you ever. Have you ever had a. Have you ever had someone. You're a renowned writer. You ran the New York Times book section, which is, you know, besides, the New York Review of Books is probably the most legendary book review in the country. Were you a guy that often got signed books?

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Only once. And that was when one of my heroes, John Updike, the great novelist, came in and his new book had come out. I'd reviewed it myself, but she didn't often do at the time. But I wanted to do.

[Steve Bannon]

It was so important. You reviewed it?

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yeah, I wanted to because I. I wanted to Write a kind of essay about him. So they took the new book. It wasn't one of his best, but that happens when you write 50 or 60 or 70 of them.

[Steve Bannon]

Please, please tell me. I. I'm not going to hear a story because you're kind of a hero to me. I'm not going to have her story where you actually asked John Updike, after reviewing the book for. Assigned it, to sign the book.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

I'm afraid I did, Steve. I'm afraid I did.

[Steve Bannon]

Is that that big? He was that big to you?

[Sam Tanenhaus]

He was to me, because I was a kid when I discovered him. And the writers you discover when you're really young are the ones who stay with you. So I had this copy of one of his Rabbit novels. Remember the Rabbit? Second one? That's the one I had.

[Steve Bannon]

And that's one of your.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

That's the one. Well, no, it's the one I had him autograph. It's one of my favorite books. I'm amazed you remember that title. I. Lot of people don't. So I had it as a miss. And Updike designed his own book jackets. Yeah, he was an artist when he was a kid. His ambition was to be a cartoonist. He ended up being a writer instead, and. And so he was very proud of his jackets. I'm kind of like you. I don't keep the jacket. I just, you know, mark the thing up. This had, like, coffee cup stains on it. And I gave it to him. I said, Mr. Updike, I just got one book. Please can you sign this thing for me? He said, oh, I'm happy to do that. And I said, well, let me spell the name for you, because my name's pretty difficult. I said, no, I think I can do it. And he wrote the last name. People always spell my last name wrong. He got it right. Sam Tannenhouse. He said to my benefactor. So that was it. So I held on to that when I never asked another question.

[Steve Bannon]

I want to go back in time there did not. What year was that? That was in the 80s, correct.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Well, when I did that with him, that was not long before he died. He died just after that. Oh, and I want to tell you another story about that, see if we get a kick out. So I did a video interview with him. Was 2008.

[Steve Bannon]

Oh, wow.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Which was the year Bill Buckley died. And. And update came in.

[Steve Bannon]

Updike died in the same year?

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yeah, they were pretty much contemporaries. They liked each other.

[Steve Bannon]

Two big cultural figures.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yeah. Yeah. Buckley really admired Updike, in fact, because

[Steve Bannon]

Buckley became a novelist.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

He did that.

[Steve Bannon]

Blackford Oaks.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Blackford Oaks best selling novels. And you just reminded me of something, Steve, I've never told anybody else before that Bill Buckley tried to get John Updike to write the introduction to a new edition of Whitaker Chambers as Witness.

[Steve Bannon]

Wow.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

I've got the correspondence. And Uptight didn't want to do it,

[Steve Bannon]

so he backed off because Wood Chambers was identified. Yeah, but he, he did it because of the First Amendment. That Updike would be a great defender.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Well, that's it. So. So Updike is in there and we have an interview doing one of our first video interviews, 2008. And so we went in the boardroom and the Times and I said, well, here we are in an election year, Mr. Updike, who do you think Rabbit Angstrom, your hero, would vote for? Because Rabbit's just kind of. He's like a Reagan Democrat.

[Steve Bannon]

Yes.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

That's what's fun about the books is forget Updike takes his own politics out and he does the politics of the guys writing about it. And he, and he was very pro Obama. And update said, well, I am so pro Obama, I can't imagine creating a character who wouldn't vote for him. And I said, well, you know that Rabbit in the last novel you wrote voted for George Bush. And Oprah said he did. He didn't remember. That's a great story.

[Steve Bannon]

Wow.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yeah. So he did. And then. Well, that's how these guys write so many books. They don't remember what they put in them.

[Steve Bannon]

I want to, because I don't have my hardcover. It's out of my library, one of my other places, but I got the soft. The paperback, which I love. More of Whitaker Chambers. I have a question.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yeah.

[Steve Bannon]

You're a Upper west side or Upper.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Well, I live in Connecticut.

[Steve Bannon]

Connecticut. But you, you lived, you did live in New York City.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

I did at one time, yeah.

[Steve Bannon]

Are you observant Jewish or secular?

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Secular.

[Steve Bannon]

Okay. You're a progressive liberal secular Jew who was the editor of the New York Times book section, which is one of the cultural institutions of the established order. How do you write? No, no, going back to. And read again. You write the book, particularly in today's politics. You write a book about Whitaker Chambers many decades ago, a guy who was an atheist. His journey is atheist to a devout Christian. And then you write Buckley, who is a devout. And I don't think people know this, particularly the devout Catholicism that drove him. The empathy and love. The writing's so spectacular, but you can tell in both books that you are. You like these guys?

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Oh, yeah.

[Steve Bannon]

You like them?

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yeah. Well, they're great men, but in Today's

[Steve Bannon]

time, in 2026, that doesn't happen. A progressive editor of the New York Times Book Review, that's also an author, doesn't write. Take two cultural icons of today. You can't write an empathetic book. You actually. You can feel the love for these men and the interest in American history at time as told through their journeys. Not men of the. Of the left or chambers. Kind of starts out the way, but Buckley's the most adamant stand in the breach to bring conservatism and make it a national civic religion. How does that happen? And what have we lost in this country that you agree with me? It's impossible for that to happen today.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yeah, I know it's impossible, Steve. And I saw some disappointment with the reaction to my book. People were fine about the book, they like it. I'm a good storyteller. But they don't give Buckley an inch. And I think. But Buckley wasn't like that after reading

[Steve Bannon]

the book, or they just came into such a mindset that they couldn't.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Well, that's. That's where you're at the tricky part, Steve, because they'll say, all right, this guy's pretty good writer. He does a. He does his homework. He tells a story. He's making me like Buckley. So what's he up to here? What's the secret agenda here? That's what it ends up being. So you end up. End up getting depicted as, you know, I'm looking at the great side by conspiracies and coincidences. I become, in their mind, somebody who's trying to promote this evil product.

[Steve Bannon]

Exactly.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

And I'm thinking, no, these are like great Americans.

[Steve Bannon]

You haven't changed. Right. But they're sitting there. That's why modern. What does it mean about the country and the point we are in culturally? That is a thing. And you saw it just firsthand with the release of the Buckley book.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yeah. People just won't listen. I'll tell you about an interview I did. A young guy called me up. He was doing something on Buckley's famous wife, Pat Buckley, for listeners of viewers of yours who are interested in the Met Gala, you know that big fancy costume thing. Pat Buckley basically invented that back in the 80s and 90s.

[Steve Bannon]

A little classier back then.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

A little someone.

[Steve Bannon]

That's what's evolved into.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

That's what I thought this guy was going to interview me about. About how when the Buckleys did It. It was a classy thing. I thought, okay, that's a good story. Instead, two minutes in the conversation, he starts hammering Buckley. And I said, what's going on here? And he said, well, he had these horrific, inexcusable, insufferable opinions. And I said, well, if that's true, how come he was friends with Jesse Jackson, George McGovern, Norman Mailer. Right. Murray Kempton, the great columnist John Kenneth Galbraith said, why do you think they all were friends with Buckley? And this guy says, maybe they wanted to redeem him. And I said, isn't it possible they thought he was smart and funny and kind and warm and generous? Yeah. Isn't it possible they actually liked him for who he was? I have found you're right about this. You almost can't make the case for not even the other side, somebody outside your little circle now. And I think this is what I'm supposed to do is about.

[Steve Bannon]

You saw that in this situation of releasing the hardback edition of. Of the Buckley.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Well, now go. Yes, I did. I'll tell you a story about the Whitaker Chambers book. That one was up for all the prizes. He's a finalist for. And. And Buckley was. And it was up for a couple, but Chambers was a. Was shortlisted.

[Steve Bannon]

They're both beautifully written. I think one of the things about Chambers is that in the midst of time now, except for some people in the. In the hardcore conservative movement that come out of Hillsdale College or something like that, he's lost in time. So when you read the book, you bring back both books, but this. But you bring back an era that most people have not gotten access to. You make it so accessible because the arc of the story is so compelling. And he's such a. Odd figure. He is.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

And it's all about the stories, you know, in these books. So this book is up. It was shortlisted as it was a finalist for the National Book Award. Very big prize. I thought, well, that's great.

[Steve Bannon]

It's a dinwiddie in the book. A surprise, in your opinion, in the

[Sam Tanenhaus]

literary world, probably, or it used to be, I don't know, between us, right now, between us and your listeners, either one of them counts for as much as they used to, but in those days, it did. This is 1997. So then I was at an event after you. You go to the. The. The. Where. Some ballroom somewhere, and they. They put a. Like a medal around your neck when you're a finalist and it's like a dog show, and then they announce the winner and the Winner goes out and makes a speech and oh, you get

[Steve Bannon]

a medal just for being, just being the finalist.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yeah, that's like making the Final Four. Right. So. So somebody came up to me not long after that. A very good historian does a. Used to a lot of the. The scripts for the Ken Burns films. And he said, I want to tell you something. He said, I was on the committee. I don't know why you're bringing stories out of me. Said I was on the committee for the National Book Award, Ward, and your book was going to get it. But there was one person, the chairman of the jury was a friend of Alger Hiss son Tony. And he said, and this is what Jeffrey Ward, famous historian, told me, said I'll never.

[Steve Bannon]

Jeffrey Ward is, was Burns's co writer for the Civil War.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yes, he was. He's a very big guy, wrote famous books about fdr. And Jeffrey Ward said to me, I'll never forget what this judge said about my book. She said, quote, I don't care what the facts are, we're not giving the prize to that book.

[Steve Bannon]

You see that foreshadows today. She was actually on the right side of history. She's on the right side of history.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

She saw it was going.

[Steve Bannon]

She saw exactly where we would be in 25 years.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yeah.

[Steve Bannon]

Because that's the attitude today. This can't get shortlisted for the, for the National Book Award.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

No, not today.

[Steve Bannon]

Not today. Because it's. You're. You're making Whitaker Chambers empathetic. You're giving Whitaker Chambers a platform, is what they would say.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yes, that's right. And especially Buckley, because now all these people are going on looking at YouTube.

[Steve Bannon]

Yes.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Ezra Klein is now looking at YouTube things on Buckley and it is very interesting how that happens. And I think now see, if I'd written a book that was an expose.

[Steve Bannon]

Yes.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Of Timothy McVeigh and the skinheads.

[Steve Bannon]

Yes.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

And I did it the same way I do here with, you know, hundreds and hundreds of footnotes going into archives, interviews. Great storytelling. And I showed how there's a conspiracy to destroy America that a handful of people who used to be in the U.S. army or Marines are behind. That book would get on that short.

[Steve Bannon]

Yes, yes, exactly. But not my major.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Somebody told me it's very respected scholars have told me, they said, it's your subjects, you take them too seriously. People don't want to think they should have to take Bill Buckley or Whitaker Chambers seriously.

[Steve Bannon]

Yes.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

And they're, they're just great figures with

[Steve Bannon]

incredible stories, things we've been doing and the Audience appreciates it's happened the last couple of times is taking things that are happening today and looking for perspective through the two books and your understanding of American history. One, I want to get you on the day. It's obviously, you know, it's being discussed, but it's even going to be more discussed the situation in Cuba and Buckley, and particularly in the Buckley book here, Yearn of communism here, Buckley. Talk to me about Buckley and Cuba and bring that up to, like today of why the origins of the Cuban revolution and Castro and all that inform so much of how the country thinks about Cuba today.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Today. Yeah. Well, the. The chapter in that book, I was just looking at it again, it's called Freedom Fighters. And when Castro won, he had that revolution. They're up in the mountains and they come down, they overthrow Batista and now this very young guy. You're younger than buckley. This is 1959. Castro is in his early 30s, and he is now the dictator, the leader. We don't know who he is yet, of Cuba, which is a much bigger country than Americans realized, you know, and there it is 100 miles off the

[Steve Bannon]

coast of Florida, and Havana was a spot. I mean, the Godfather who showed that. But Havana was a. I remember when I was a kid in the International League back in the 50s, I think Havana was still a team. They still had a team in the International League.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yeah. Great ball players came out of it. Boxers, remember all the great Cuban heavyweight fighters. And what Godfather 2 is for anybody who hasn't seen, I assume most of your audience has. The Havana scenes are fantastic. And they are set during the revolution. Right. They're down there in the casino.

[Steve Bannon]

Magnificent scene on New Year's Eve when it actually they. The. The fall of Cuba.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

You see it happen. So Buckley thinks that liberals are misreading Cuba. Why does he think that? Because they think Castro is just a great social liberator.

[Steve Bannon]

Right.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

So they think he's. What does Buckley know that they don't? Well, his father had made his career in Mexico in Mexican oil at the time of the revolution. And he would write. Buckley's father was writing letters to Woodrow Wilson saying what you think is a social revolutionary is a bandit who's murdering people. And that's. Buckley looks at Cuba and he has a pretty good idea that's what's going on there. Partly because of the Catholic Church. They're chasing all the priests. They deported dozens of priests and the bishop of Havana to Spain. Get them out of the country. So Buckley is an idea, says, okay, let's Find out what's really going on in Cuba. So first Castro's being treated as a hero.

[Steve Bannon]

First of the New York Times was. Was over the top. And this guy was a agrarian reformer and was this kind of romantic rebel, right? There was no underpinnings of the basically hardcore Marxist, Leninist, do you know, Stalinistic when it came to the. To the church or any organized religion.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

One of national reviews early really great jokes that Buckley came up with used to be this famous ad. People would say, I got my job through the New York Times because the one hands they showed Fidel Castro, they said, I got my job through the New York Times. Right.

[Steve Bannon]

It's really what made him acceptable to an American audience for a while.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Well, so then what happens is Castro is invited to give a speech at Harvard. So this is perfect for Buckley. Buckley had just made that really famous comment, right? Where he says, I'd sooner be governed by the first 2,000 names in the Boston telephone directory than by the faculty of Harvard University. Probably the single most famous thing he ever said.

[Steve Bannon]

So he wants dead.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Spot on, yo. Yeah. So he. So it's. How are we going to do it? Well, we've got a really brilliant young guy on staff, guy named John Leonard, who went on to have the same job I later did editing the book review. And Leonard was a Harvard dropout. They kicked him out because he never went to class. He just wrote for the newspaper instead. And buck the Crimson.

[Steve Bannon]

He wrote for the Crimson, but that wasn't good enough for the authorities.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

No. And he had a scholarship. He's from Long Beach, California. He doesn't fit in. He's not a preppy. He doesn't belong there. Not only did they revoke his scholarship, Leonard's widow told me this. Harvard made him pay it back.

[Steve Bannon]

Wow.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

So he hates Harvard. Buckley says, well, John, why don't you go up to Cambridge and report on Castro's speech? So he goes up there. There's a spring of 1959. I'm just looking at this again.

[Steve Bannon]

Castro was given the commencement. So in Harvard Yard when you go. Because the colleges do their own. But the. When I was their vulgar Volker, gave it actually in Harvard Yard. And the whole university can kind of

[Sam Tanenhaus]

show up, but 7,000 people were in a stadium to see him. And he's introduced by George Stadium McGeorge Bundy, remember him? Right, the guy. National Security Advisor soon under Kennedy.

[Steve Bannon]

The best and the brightest.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

So. Exactly.

[Steve Bannon]

So who was a little obsessed by Cuba.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Well. And leather. Can't believe what he's hearing so he

[Steve Bannon]

files a report to Buckley because George Bundy's the president of Harvard College at the time.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yeah, yeah. He's one of the top deans. Yeah, Dean, undergraduate, dean, which is the same thing. And Leonard can't believe what he's singing. And I was looking at it again. He says, well, the social event of the season at Harvard, he calls it, because he nails it. It's a social event. Said everybody's wearing Castro like little beanie caps. Everybody wants to look like Fidel. And there was a new word that was just being. This will interest you because you like the history so much. There was a new word that was being used. Used in politics that had never been used before. We're familiar with it. The words charisma means star power. Castro was the first guy they were saying was charismatic. So Leonard puts this into his piece, and then he gives it to Buckley. And Buckley adds some sentences. And Buckley says, well, however dazzling a personality he may be, that doesn't keep him from bulldozing over the bones of the people he. He's killed in Cuba. So this thing is running. Then Buckley says, we have to do more than that. We have to find out what's going on in Cuba. So he arranges through all his contacts in Latin America for John Leonard to get a press pass to go to Havana. And what he's going to do is interview a journalist who'd been on the left, the way these guys so often are, then turned around. His name was Ernesto de la. John Leonard goes down to interview him, they say, and the government says, no problem, Mr. Leonard, come on in. We'll make him available to you. Never happens. He can't talk to anybody. He's sitting in his hotel room and he writes a report that says Defay is in prison. He's facing possible execution and a show trial. He is not allowed to see anyone in his family. They've never been in touch with him. And they publish it in National Review. And it was one of the first articles that told the truth about what was going on in Cuba. That's 1959. Well, then later, Buckley was not yet a syndicated columnist. That came a couple years later. He wrote his columns in National Review, and he wrote about cast. Remember, Buckley was fluent in Spanish. I've met Spaniards who told me. I asked them much, was Buckley fluent in Spanish? They said, no, he wasn't fluent. He was perfect. You could not tell because you remember

[Steve Bannon]

he was going to. You couldn't tell if it was a Hispanic person talking or not. It was that Good. He was a teacher. His first gig was really teaching Spanish at Yale.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yeah, yeah. And he'd been raised by, you know, and he knew Mexico.

[Steve Bannon]

He knew Spanish culture, knew it really well.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

So he goes, so. And Buckley regretted that he hadn't gone to Havana himself. He always regretted that he sent this young guy instead of. Well, then Buckley writes a column and he says, well, what should we do about the charismatic rebel in Cuba? He'll say, I'll tell you what we should do. And this comes right out of what his father had taught him about Mexico. He said, if Cuba is going to appropriate any American property, we're taking that back and we're take it with military force if we have to. And he says, by the way, intervention is right only when it came to Communism. He's a little bit like Pat Buchanan that way. When it's Communism, yes, but never anything else, because Communism, they're killing priests, are destroying his religion, so Catholicism. So Buckley also says. He says, you know, there's. There's talk out there that the Soviet Union actually is going to set up missile launch pads in Cuba. And people think you are, what, the 1960. Hello. And people think this is a conspiracy guy. He's out of his mind all of a sudden.

[Steve Bannon]

He's a wingnut, right wing wing nut.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

And he said, if they're going to do it, we've got to stop it. Two years later, of course, we end up having to do that. So I think, okay, but maybe that's Cold War paranoia, right? So I do my job as a historian. I'm thinking, what did Khrushchev, who was the leader of Russia then, right, the premier general party secretary, what was he doing during the Cuban Missile Crisis and also during the Bay of Pigs invasion, which JFK blew because he wouldn't send his own people in. So here's what the very quite liberal biographer William Taubman, Bill Taubman, records Khrushchev say Khrushchev could not understand why Jack Kennedy would allow Castro to operate in his backyard. He said, I can't. But he liked Castro, said, I can't believe he's letting him do this. Why? Because what did Khrushchev do when he had uprisings in Hungary and Poland? He sent the tanks in, right? He sent the tank brigades in. And he can't believe that JFK is going to send the Marines down there. Then he says, so I think, well, okay, so he actually thought it would have made sense for us to send our own people there. And listen, there are many schools and thought and all these issues. So I think what did Khrushchev really plan to do with the missiles in Cuba? Because there was an argument that said, well, maybe they're defensive missiles. Think what kind of argument is that? Because it's already a provocation one. So there what did Khrushchev say? So we're going to try to put some missile bases down there and even if they take three of them out, we'll have two that we can send to the US and get their cities. That is what Khrushchev said. It's exactly what Buckley is saying. And they call Buckley a nut.

[Steve Bannon]

I want to go back. We got a couple, we got a minute here on this side, his understanding from his father of the Mexican Revolution, the Civil War, particularly the anti clerical nature of it and getting rid of the Catholic Church. And see how much did that inform Buckley's understanding early on of the true nature of Castro when everybody else missed it hugely.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

So and Buckley made an unusual tactical error when he went after the Vatican for that encyclical where they were critical of capitalism. Many years later he said, I couldn't understand why the Vatican would be so indulgent of the Communists when Castro was persecuting clergy in Cuba. But he never said that at the time. He only said it later. If he had brought that point point up, you would have had a very interesting controversy. Viewers and listeners do not think Donald Trump is the first president to quarrel with the Vatican. Bill Buckley, if he'd been president, would have done it too.

[Steve Bannon]

But a huge cultural name. We kind of take our guidance from Buckley there. We're we're up against the Vatican all the time, like for the secret deal they signed with the Chinese Communist Party. We're going to take a commercial break. I want to thank our sponsor, Birch Gold birchgold.com end of the dollar not.com birchgold.com Bannon free into the dollar empire we've been working we've been doing this for six years now in free installments. Now put it into a book and book is sold out already. It's on backorder, but you can get all free. We have the eighth free installment out. We talk about Bretton woods and the dollar is the prime reserve currency and that meaning and impact it has on your life and why gold is a hedge against fiat currency in times of turbulence. Short Commercial Break SAM 10 House on the other side, the dollar's convertibility into gold ended in 1971. Gold was fixed at $35 an ounce. Well, fast forward to today in the U.S. dollar has lost over 85% of its purchasing power. Gold, on the other hand, is increased in value by over 12,000%. That's why Central banks are buying gold at record levels. That's why major firms like Vanguard and BlackRock hold significant positions in gold. And that's why I encourage you to consider diversifying your savings with physical gold from Birch Gold Group. But it starts with education. Birch Gold just announced their Learn and Earn precious metals. Eventually. This free online event rewards you for learning the basics of investing in precious metals. Sign up to get a free silver on your next purchase. Get even larger incentives as you go. The more you learn, the more you can earn. But you must act now as this special event only runs through April 30th. The dollar lost its anchor in 1971. You don't have to lose yours. Text my name, Bannon B A N N O N to the number 989-898 to join Birch Gold's Learn and Earn Precious Metals event by April 30th. Text Bannon B A N N O N to 989-898 and do it today. War room. Here's your host, Stephen K. Bannon. Okay, you triggered me the further you said and Kennedy didn't send his guys in in the Bay of Pigs. So I just want to make sure people have the timeline here. It's so great to talk about critical path with you.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yeah, let's work it through.

[Steve Bannon]

So the 5859 casher comes to power and he's what you referred to him as what the, what the progressive left thought is that he was a left bank intellectual. Intellectual, read books, was an author but, but also the glamour of being a revolutionary. Of course his wingman is Shay Guevara. So these guys are highly romantic and they're also, they, they, they're fighters. I mean they, they basically won as rebels to beat Batista who is no easy, you know, no easy guy that then and all sudden the United States after 1960 and President Kennedy comes in there's in the best and the brightest. When you've read Albertstein's book there are obsessed with standing up to communism as communism tries to spread throughout the world. Right. And they're one hand they're going to try to do it intellectually but they're going to make some stance of this Cuba more than Vietnam is like Bobby Kennedy said we've got 50 Vietnams here every day. Back in the early days they dismiss Vietnam as being anything important because we didn't have a Commitment. Cuba was different. Cuba's always central to the Kennedy, to the best and the brightest. And President Kennedy as an anti communist warrior.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yeah. You know, there's a great moment you mentioned the best and the brightest, where David Haberstam describes how they're getting ready to invade Cuba. They're thinking about it and some guy in the State Department, I forget who it is, says, do you have any idea how big Cuba is? Do you have any. They think it's like he says, they think it's the size of Long Island. No, he. So this general lays out a map. It's 800 miles long. He said it's like going from New York to Chicago. You think this place is easy to invade?

[Steve Bannon]

Yes.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

You think these people don't have something that they're going to fight for? And so they said, no, don't do it. And during the debates, remember the famous debate Kennedy and Nixon in 1960, Kennedy was sort of taunting Nixon by saying, what are you going to do about Castro? Well, they knew there wasn't all that much you could do. Right. Kennedy keeps goading Nixon, then Kennedy wins. Now it's up to him. He's the guy who has to do something, but it's not up to him.

[Steve Bannon]

But let's go back to time frame. I keep telling people, when you talk about the Bay of Pigs, it happens in April. You don't take office until the third week of January. April's the next day.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Oh, it was planned early.

[Steve Bannon]

Oh, no, it's planned during Eisenhower. My point is, I mean, not just planning planned. They're rolling. They're, they're, this is an execution mode. The, the Cuban missile. The, the Bay of Pigs happens, I think, in early April of 61. And they came and gave Kennedy admitted later he's just learning the job. They come and give him a presentation. Was it John Foster Dulles? Allen. Allen Dawson, Allen Dulles, CIA. And they give him a thing. And, and it's the most, it's, I hate to say this, it's kind of like we're going to bomb Iran, we're going to bomb Tehran for 48 hours. And, and the people are going to rise up in revolution. It never changes, folks. This is what the Mossad and the CIA pitched to President Trump. We're going to bomb Tehran for 48 hours and you're going have a mass uprising to overthrow these horrendous dictators. That's essentially the Bay of Pigs. We're going to land this, this counter revolutionary force that we've trained exiles from Cuba Gaza. We've trained in Louisiana and Florida and Mississippi, the School of Americas, the infamous school of our famous School of Americas. And they're going to land, and it's going to be an immediate uprising of the Cuban people, because Cuban people are deeply religious and they hate Castro, they hate the Communists. Just. All I got to do is read Bill Buckley. He's telling me that. Right?

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yeah. So. Yeah.

[Steve Bannon]

And guess what? Just like in Tehran was not accurate. Right. For many different reasons. There was no. They landed the Bay of Pigs. And in fact, not only was it not a revolution, not a spontaneous call for people to come, they actually helped thwart the landing on the beach.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yeah. And Castro was waiting for them, too. You know, they totally underestimated how committed Castro was. They had 1200, you know, Brigade 12, 1200, 1400 of these Cuban exiles. Castro's waiting for them. And, yeah, they think, well, they must hate Castro as much as we do. And they forget the dictator he overthrew. Reminds you a little bit, Steve, you go way back.

[Steve Bannon]

Baptista was no. Was no date.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

No. I mean, he's like a gangster. You go back to Iran and you. And we're hearing a lot about 1979, 1953. We don't hear about 1953, where the CIA engineered the coup that brought the Ayatollah in. And we don't like to tell those.

[Steve Bannon]

So Dulles, Dulles, and now the Joint Chiefs get involved. And they had signed off on this thing. And now lemayne, these guys, they all want American air power. First thing they want is close air support. And Jack Kennedy, who had fought in World War II, and he had his war hero. War hero. And he had the Department of Labor, his labor secretary, had fought in World War II. Many guys have fought in World War II. They were very hesitant, and he was adamant. He says, hey, the pitch I got up to now, nothing's happened according to plan. I think that we're not going to do that. We're going to. And they go, you're going to leave him on the beach? And he was against even extraction. Extraction exercises. Said, hey, look, you know, is what it is.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yeah.

[Steve Bannon]

That's for many conspiracy theorists, that is the beginning, even more than Vietnam, that. That is the beginning of members of the government and others, particularly the CIA. Because afterwards, he came out and says, hey, Dulles has got to go.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

He fired them all.

[Steve Bannon]

Fired them all. Dulles got to go. And I'm going to get my hands on the CIA. We're going to take care of this thing. This thing has had too many, too many screw ups. Right. So we don't know what's going on from Suez to, you know, everywhere. We got to get our hands on it. And that begins, that begins the, the, the, the deep states move on Jack Kennedy.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yeah, that's a very interesting argument. And there's another strand of it too is if you just look at it through Kennedy administration foreign policy. All right, so early on you'll remember this, Steve. Even before Cuba, there had been that, or maybe it was a little after, there was the, the summit where Khrushchev really beat him up. Beat up Jack. He wasn't prepared. He wasn't prepared. He's a young guy up against that.

[Steve Bannon]

Khrushchev was the guy they sent to Stalingrad. He was the commissar they sent to Stalingrad to. Because they were losing. They sent him to Stalingrad to shoot some generals because they weren't retreating an inch. Khrushchev was a thug. He was as hard as you can get.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Very.

[Steve Bannon]

He's one of the guys when Stalin died, remember, they had the whole thing with barrier. Khrushchev was in back of that. Khrushchev is hard as nails.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Very tough guy. Sees jfk, looks like a kid, prep school kid to him, and he embarrasses him. And that's when Vienna. Yeah. And that's one school of argument that says that's when Jack Kennedy decided he had to be the tough guy.

[Steve Bannon]

Oh.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Because when he first met with Eisenhower, when during the transition, Eisenhower didn't talk that much about Cuba, he talked endlessly about Laos. Remember Laos? You've got to make the stand there. So then Kennedy thinks, okay, I'll be a tough guy. We'll make the stand in Vietnam. And you're thinking Vietnam. How many educated Americans could even find it on a map back then? And they decide to do it in Vietnam. And as you know, it's a CIA again. They have him. Right. Carry out a coup and an execution of DM, who's a. Right early 63 that commits us to the war.

[Steve Bannon]

Buckley always thought, why didn't I go in the CIA? They were recruiting the best and brightest in the post war Ivy League with his language skill. In fact, he had a gig in Mexico.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

He did. Yeah.

[Steve Bannon]

He had a gig in Mexico City. Became also central to the plot against President Kennedy. Later, the Mexico City tapes or the Mexico City about the Oswald going to Mexico City. When Buckley turned his hand to being a novelist. Blackford Oaks, he went back. Blackford Oaks was a CIA agent. Correct.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

And the very first of those novels, Saving the Queen was the first published account of what CIA training was like in Washington D.C. because at the Farm. At the Farm it was published in 1975. And in those days, remember, that's when the church committee and the others are exposing the CIA. And Buckley wants to defend it. He said, thinks these are patriots. So the CIA, which vetted everybody's book, you know, they go through it, they read pencil it, they trusted Buckley so they let him write what he wanted to. So he described what his own training had been like and Washington back in 1950. Then Buckley goes over to Mexico City and we know who his boss was. Guy named E. Howard Hunt.

[Steve Bannon]

For conspiracy theorists, you're having a field day now.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yeah, now in the exact, in the exact.

[Steve Bannon]

The station chief and the operatives in the Mexico City embassy that later becomes so controversial because actual. Either a guy who doesn't look like Oswald shows up saying he's Oswald right before, in September, right before the assassination.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

And after the assassination, guess what friend of Buckley's in the CIA was feeding him information. But also it was Howard Hunt saying, no, this looks like there's something else going on here. There might be a bigger conspiracy here. So Buckley always knew that stuff. He had all these contacts.

[Steve Bannon]

He knew during, during the Bay of Pigs and then later the missile crisis. Given Buckley, Billy's understanding of Spanish culture, particularly the church, what, what Castro had done. Where did he come out on all this? On both the Bay of Pigs. Was he a interventionist and felt we should do more and that because you mentioned that Kennedy didn't send his guys in.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yeah, right. Yeah, he was.

[Steve Bannon]

That's always been a bone, that's always been a bone of contention among the hardcore guys like Buckley. You did leave him on the beach. You could have won if you just reinforced them.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yeah. And you know, Howard would tell him that stuff because Howard had worked with those guys, Howard Hunt, and then when they became exiles in were living in Miami, Howard Hunt, after he was released from jail following Watergate, went down to Miami and was living looking after those guys. So he was very close to them and it had ruined his career. Buckley was very personally loyal. You know, it's one thing everybody loved about him. And he helped Howard Hunt out all his life and tried to support him in all the things he did. And he, he really respected the CIA. Buckley, you're right, he did come out

[Steve Bannon]

of that upper class culture. Buckley knew. Buckley knew immediately. When the Watergate break in happened and E. Howard Hunt was named, he realized this is more than just a Break in of Democratic Party here. There was something E. Howard Hunted had his hand in many different operations throughout the thing that Buckley knew about. Right.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Well, then I've got a scene in the. The book. You'll remember when. After Howard Hunt's wife dies in a plane crash during Watergate.

[Steve Bannon]

By the way, the beautiful, brilliant, tough as nails, E. Howard Hunt's wife.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yes.

[Steve Bannon]

Extraordinary woman.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

She was an extraordinary woman. You know who really admired her was Norman Mailer. Has a lot of pages on her in his book Harlot's Ghost at the CIA. And then Howard Hunt, because Buckley had been trying to get Howard to tell the real story of Watergategate. You wouldn't do it. Wouldn't even tell Buckley what went on. Then, finally, so there's like the winter of 72, early 73, Howard Hunt goes to see Buckley, tells him everything. Everything. Tells him about a plot to murder Jack Anderson, the columnist. I mean, tells him everything. He knew more about Watergate than Woodward and Bernstein did and Bill Buckley, and he kept it to himself. What I saw was he would drop these little hands. Hints no one ever picked up in this. He dropped little hints in his column. He'd say, well, I think Nixon's okay in Watergate unless we find out, say, there's an attempt to assassinate Jack Anderson. And you're reading this, you say, what's Buckley talking about? Buckley's talking.

[Steve Bannon]

He's telling Buckley. Ever write that down in anywhere? Is it ever? Did he record anything that is in any of his papers? The true stories he heard from Howard Hunt about. About Watergate.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Never did. The one who heard the most was his son Christopher, who record some of them in his great little memoir, mom and Pop. He told me once, I think Christopher decided that it better kept to himself, that Buckley told him at one point he was getting phone calls from Hunt in prison. Buckley paid all of Howard Hunt's legal bills himself because Buckley would do this.

[Steve Bannon]

Buckley would give money to.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Also a liberal.

[Steve Bannon]

What a loyal guy.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Incredibly loyal. He helped me.

[Steve Bannon]

Everybody abandoned Hunt.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yeah. That's why. That's why Buckley stood by him. It was not about Nixon. It was about Howard Hunt. And he wanted to defend him. He saw. He really admired Hunt and he liked him. And he thought he was a patriot and he was getting really abused. The other guy who stood up for them all was Reagan. Reagan stood up for all the Watergate guys,

[Steve Bannon]

Kennedy and Buckley, their relationship. Did he admire him? The relationship there. And particularly as it relates to the. Because the two big incidents in Kennedy's administration, because Vietnam was Still, until they assassinated Diem, was still Cuba was everything, right? Obviously Oswald, the whole situation. Oswald goes to New Orleans, he's part of this Cuban operation. What did Buckley think about all that?

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Buckley really admired Kennedy as a person. He liked his style, he liked his

[Steve Bannon]

wit, because it's very Ivy League. League.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Very Ivy League and also great. Listen, Irish.

[Steve Bannon]

Yes, you know, Irish.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

America. Catholic at its peak. My theory is based on a lot of digging and reading. Is a Blackford Oaks. Although his personality is modeled on Buckley, his physical appearances is Jack Kennedy. Jack Kennedy.

[Steve Bannon]

I'll tell you a Blackford Oak story you haven't heard before.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Oh, my.

[Steve Bannon]

So I start my investment banking first firm in Hollywood after I leave Goldman Sachs. And we're doing a lot of film financing, a lot of restructuring. And my kid brother, who is also a naval officer pilot, leaves the Navy and comes to work for me. And he's put in kind of the organizing of the film production site and things like that. And we're talking about potentially starting to do our own projects because we're learning distribution, we're learning finance. And my kid brother brings up Blackford Oaks, the novel series. And I go, what are you talking about? He says, I think these would make a great. Television wasn't really a thing then like it is today. Says, I think these would make great films. And I had not read them because I don't read a lot of fiction. And so my kid brother gives me Saving the Queen and it's so mesmerizing. Yeah, right. And you tell Buckley knows the inside and you know that scene where he's in the room with the queen and everything like that. He's a great love of the material. It's such a compelling. And he's a smart guy. He know. And I didn't really know at the time he had all these CIA connections. I go, man, this is. This is like an insider's. An insider's view. This is really an American James Bond from a very sophisticated thing. And I said, I said, told my brother Chris, I said, look, what are you talking about? He says, well, I want to contact Buckley and see if we get the rights and go make a film, start making films. And I go, it'll be like a James Bond franchise. And I go, bill Buckley is not going to talk to us. It's Bill Buckley.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

He's.

[Steve Bannon]

I'm sure he's had 20 producers, David Brown, all these classy producers have talked him all. So my kid brother calls, he gets Buckley on the phone, they start having conversations. I don't think any. Because Hollywood was so liberal. I don't think anybody had ever approached Buckley about actually making the films and had some conversations and they talked about. Now just. We did. We had so much other stuff we're doing. It didn't come to fruition, but he said he was the nicest guy, the most engaging guy and he really wanted to. He really wanted to have it remain the film.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

I'm sure he did. Yeah. I've seen correspondence, I don't know if it was about your brother, where he says, well, there's somebody who's written a script. One of the. I don't know if your brother went that far.

[Steve Bannon]

Somebody wrote a script was on Saving the Queen and one of the.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Later, I can't remember now, but. And I think he mentions it maybe

[Steve Bannon]

for him to take that, given his love of the CIA at the Agency as particularly when he was. Was joining it and, and the details and also for him to take the risk, profile wise of actually writing a novel.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Right.

[Steve Bannon]

Because you know you're going to get hammered if you're a serious political observer. Right. To start writing a novel, they go, it's always like a sideshow here. Right.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

It's an easy way to go out from. And then the opposite happened. People have the same reaction to the book. They couldn't put them down, write them really fast, big time. Because he knew readers wanted to keep things going and that was a big surprise to his book editor. He said, I thought you were going to write some intellectual treatise and turn it into a novel. He said, you've written like a page turner. Because the, the novel Buckley really liked was Day of the Jackal. Remember, Dave? The Jackal? That was fantastic film, love. Really great film.

[Steve Bannon]

Couldn't make that film today because it's too realistic.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yeah, right.

[Steve Bannon]

In fact, I think they did a remake that didn't.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

But the original remake was a lot different. The original was fantastic.

[Steve Bannon]

The original is mesmerizing.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yeah.

[Steve Bannon]

Edward Fox is the assassin.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Right.

[Steve Bannon]

It's just, it's. It's shot in the streets of Paris all throughout. I mean, it's, it's a real film.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Why did he become a bigger star ever Fox? He was so great or was he a big star in England?

[Steve Bannon]

I always thought he was like in, In A Bridge Too Far, he plays General Hor. He's always kind of that second lead.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

I think they try to make him

[Steve Bannon]

a leading man at one time, like in the Day of the Jackal. He's a guy that can actually be the Jackal. A movie Star is going to be a movie star. Right. He's. He's. If Sean Connery had done it, it had been a different thing. Or it had been Sean Connery as a movie star. He. He actually was a actor.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yeah, right.

[Steve Bannon]

And I think that's why he didn't become a big movie star. We've got to wrap up. We've already done an hour and.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

And I got to get a train now. You got to get a train.

[Steve Bannon]

Hang on the paper. So should people be buying the paperback?

[Sam Tanenhaus]

It comes out in early June. Everything now you go on Amazon and

[Steve Bannon]

get that you want to sell is look, we want to do good by Random House that they want to keep selling hardbacks.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

They probably do until this comes out in June.

[Steve Bannon]

The hardback copy, the hardback edition that you've got, how many printings is it through?

[Sam Tanenhaus]

It's. I think it's in the fifth now. At least half of them, thanks to you.

[Steve Bannon]

Well, I'm just saying you've only been in your first printing when you came here. No, because people love. All this needed was to get access to the story and people jumped in there and here's what they tell me. It's just one great vignette and one great story after the next. That's the power of your books. I do want to make a plug for Whitaker Chambers.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yeah.

[Steve Bannon]

This is actually. This is brilliantly written. I love this book. This will work in literature.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Don't you think that's an interesting film? No, this is not for me to say.

[Steve Bannon]

No, no, no. This is. This is. Both of you combine these from Pre World War II all the way up to really, I guess Trump, right. You get a whole picture of panorama of the country.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

I'll tell you something. I shouldn't say this, but a guy whose work I respect, I think you do too. Mike Lind. Michael Lind.

[Steve Bannon]

Oh, sure. I love my.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

He sent me a note and he said, years from now, the only books anyone will read to learn about the conservative movement are these two biographies. Because the stories are there. The Big Bill and the stories I tell people.

[Steve Bannon]

Get Tannen House, Whitaker Chambers in Buckley. You're going to get that. You're going to really understand American history, modern American history. You have heaven. And only an outsider could do it. You couldn't do if you were conservative. I don't think you could have written these books. I think it took the perspective of somebody that had been part of the liberal cultural apparatus.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Yeah, I haven't thought of it that way. I think of more of it's discovery for me. So it becomes more exciting than if I'd say grown up real quickly.

[Steve Bannon]

Where they go Homepage. Where they go to?

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Sam Tannen House.com.

[Steve Bannon]

got everything there.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Everything there. Yeah. And Amazon.

[Steve Bannon]

You see the Bucks June 2nd. Go order it now.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

You will not.

[Steve Bannon]

You'll be able to mark it up. It's magnificent. Sam, thank you once again.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

What a pleasure.

[Steve Bannon]

Great brand.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

I end up. I end up learning more than I.

[Steve Bannon]

You're my Orson Bean to my Johnny Carson.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

I.

[Steve Bannon]

Just kidding.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Nixon's favorite comedian.

[Steve Bannon]

I did not. I did not compare myself and. And Andrew Breitbart's father in law, Andrew Breitbart. See you tomorrow.

[Sam Tanenhaus]

Where is it.