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Bannon`s War Room
WarRoom Battleground eP 1027: The Current Crusade For The Christian Faith
WarRoom Battleground eP 1027: The Current Crusade For The Christian Faith ...
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- [00:03]
Steve Bannon
This is the primal scream of a dying regime. Pray for our enemies because we're going medieval on these people. Christians, I got a free shot. All these networks lying about the people. The people have had a belly full of it. I know you don't like hearing that. I know you try to do everything in the world to stop that, but you're not going to stop it. It's going to happen. And where do people like that go to share the big lie? MAGA MEDIA I wish in my soul, I wish that any of these people had a conscience. Ask yourself, what is my task and what is my purpose? If that answer is to save my country, this country will be saved. War ROOM here's your host, Stephen k. Band Tuesday, the 9th of June your Lord 202026 we're welcoming Raymond Abraham, one of our favorite guests here actually in the War room today. Raymond, you're back in D.C. for a major conference. Walk people through because you know, we know you from your great books on the history of the the War of Islam, the 1400 year war of sword and scimitar of Islam versus the Christian West. You've got the, the Great Heroes of the west, another one, but it goes back to the Middle Ages. And you've got this amazing book on the military orders which I love. Just amazing. And Knights Templar and Knights Hospitallers of St. John. But you're actually very involved in current national security intelligence and kind of this war against Christian communities. What's this conference? Who's at it? Why is it important?
- [01:44]
Raymond Ibrahim
Yeah, Steve, it's called, it's being hosted by Coptic Solidarity, an international human rights organization that primarily focuses on the persecution of Christians in the Middle east in general, in Egypt in particular, the Copts, because that's the largest concentration of Christian minorities in the Middle East. And it's a two day conference. It has a lot of congressmen, congresswomen, analysts, experts, specialists, victims, testimonials. Very interesting. I'm invited, I held a panel dealing with actually the attacks on the Coptic or Christian heritage in the Middle east, such as the St. Catherine Monastery and also the holy family trail in Egypt, how they're being appropriated by the Egyptian state essentially. And but lots of information is, you know, we spoke one, one was an apostate from England, man of Pakistani heritage, who shared his story, including images and the man has been beaten several times almost near death just for leaving Islam. And of course there's definitely a security and political dimension as well. Lots of experts talking about those particular.
- [02:51]
Steve Bannon
So this is something that's almost never talked about, and we do it a lot on the show. But the war against Christianity and Christians and Christian sites all throughout the Middle east. And this is happening in Israel now, too. This is why I'm a huge advocate. We need a Christian, a new Christian state of Jerusalem. The, the Muslims have Gaza. I mean, Qatar's financing it. The Turks are going to provide security. I kept arguing the overreach of the Greater Israel Project will lead to that and President Trump's construct the Board of Peace. That's what's happening. You need a Christian state. But I want to go back to the heritage St. Catherine's Monastery and the Holy Family Trail. Let's start at St. Catherine's Monastery. What is it? When was it built and what's the problem today?
- [03:35]
Raymond Ibrahim
So this is basically, I think, the oldest continuously run monastery in the world. And it was built, I think, during Justinian the Great, the emperor. It was literally built before Islam came into being, about a century or two before in the Sinai area, around the area where Moses the burning bush and the Ten Commandments. Sinai, essentially. So it was built to commemorate their very ancient, very holy site. And ever since the Islamic Arab conquests of the 7th century, it has been under attack. It is in all sorts of ways burned and rebuilt. And this goes for all monasteries and churches, of course. But finally, after the vicissitudes of centuries of attacks from different invading Islamic occupiers, Arabs and Turks and Fatimids and Seljuqs, et cetera, et cetera, now it's finally in one piece and it's a UNESCO heritage site. And out of the blue, the Egyptian state, because a regular Muslim man and Islamists, according to the reports support him, actually brought a territorial claim saying that, no, no, the land that the monastery is built on belongs to me. And long story short, a few months ago, the Egyptian court ruled that, yes, all the land around that monastery belongs to the state and it's going to appropriate it. And that, of course, created a lot of lash back, especially from the Greek Orthodox Church, who. Because it's an Orthodox site, it's essentially a Greek Orthodox site. And, you know, eventually, just to cover face, the Egyptian government said, no, no, it's just a technicality, nothing's going to change, it's still a heritage site, etc. Etc. But, you know, most observers, myself included, argue otherwise, that it's essentially being appropriated. And what really gives credence to that is something very similar has happened since then. And lesser known, which is in Egypt, there's what's known as The Holy Family Trail, which is at the time when Joseph and Mary and baby Jesus, when they fled to Egypt. For centuries it's been known where they went, and the Coptic Church has actually maintained it for spiritual and heritage reasons. But now the Egyptian state is again appropriating everything, taking control of it. And keep in mind, you know, so the Coptic Church, the Christians, again, that whole. All those heritage sites were under attack by Muslims. Now, however, because it can be used and exploited as a tourism site, basically the Egyptian government's taking it, appropriating, and of course, taking all the revenues that come from it. And, you know, to fully understand this, if you want to really understand how bad it is, because it's usually everything coming out from that region is bad anyway. But to understand it by analogy, imagine or think about what the US Government is doing towards Native Americans. The complete autonomy they have, the lands that they can keep, their sacred sites. They. They keep all the revenue coming out of casinos and all that sort of thing. Well, this is identical because the cops are the indigenous inhabitants, as I mentioned, you know, Sinai, Catherine, that. That was there centuries before Arabs and Muslims, before Muslims even existed, before Muhammad was born. Okay? And you can see the difference between how the US Government is, you know, at least allows the natives access and to profit from their own regions. Whereas in Egypt and in the broader Middle East, Christians are completely being denied and their actual structures, the Native Americans don't even have buildings that they built before the, you know, Europeans came, whereas in this case, you have actual monasteries and ancient sites, actual tangible assets. And lo and behold, here's the Egyptian government essentially taking over.
- [07:10]
Steve Bannon
So, but here's what I don't get. We give. Because your Coptic conference has. You've got a lot of players there. You've got guys from the administration. I think you have the counterterrorism person over at the National Security Council. You got a number of prominent congressmen. I mean, this issue of Christians being under attack is now starting to get the type of profile that we need. And particularly people think, well, hold it. Egypt is a General Sisi is one of President Trump's closest guys in the region. We give him, I think, $10 billion a year. Used to. I think it was five. I think it was up to $10 billion a year of monetary support for the government, plus military support. If we're giving them that kind of money, how can they, on the other hand, be taking sites from the Greek Orthodox Church and from Christians, particularly the land around it? I mean, how are we allowing that? We just should call them up and say, hey, you want the 10 billion, you got to turn the land back over to the. In this monastery that's been around, you know, for over a thousand years. It's got to be hands off. And the holy family trail's going to be turned back over to the Greek Orthodox Church. And we want the thing cleaned up, protected in security, and don't tolerate any BS when they come back with it. Why are we not doing that?
- [08:25]
Raymond Ibrahim
Well, that's exactly it, Steve. You know, when you listen to any of these experts and analysts who speak at these conferences, going way back, since I've been attending them for like 15 years, the number one thing that they always want to do is have the US Government pressure the nations that they give money to. In this case, as you point out correctly, Egypt, okay? And the fact is they don't. They'll never say one word about this because they, you know, if they did, it's such a minor thing. They are not going to. The Egyptian government in this case would comply because it's such a minor thing. They're not going to risk those billions of dollars for that. But it's ultimately a testimonial to just how indifferent and apathetic most US Governments and administrations are when it comes to even speaking up on behalf of Christians who are being persecuted because it's already there. We don't have to do a first Crusade, you know, we don't have to send war because. Or send warriors because the Egyptians, the Muslims are abusing and taking advantage of Christians, and there's nothing we can do except go to war. Actually, it's very simple and it's just part of the package. We're already paying you, and the least you can do is, you know, be civil and treat these religious Christian minorities.
- [09:35]
Steve Bannon
But why is that not happening now? You got all these major players from the administration. Why is the Egyptian government particularly. They're under, okay, the Egyptian government is underwritten by the United States of America. And the Saudis. And the Saudis do it because the United States tells them, hey, you got to do it, you got to have stability. This thing collapses. I think Egypt's got what, 80? How many is that 100 million or over 100 million people that Egypt has?
- [09:57]
Raymond Ibrahim
Yeah, over a hundred. Over 100. Yeah.
- [09:59]
Steve Bannon
And it's huge amounts of young people, you know, under 25 years old. If Egypt and Egypt's economy, it's always been the kind of the sick man as far as economically among the Arab nations. It's a finance basically in the west, we shouldn't tolerate any of this. Is this message getting through? Is this why you've got the Coptic 26?
- [10:23]
Raymond Ibrahim
Yeah, the message. Look, the message is understood by everyone who cares and who's advocating for this. But apparently the people who are in charge, who can include in their package stipulations regarding, you know, not mistreating other Christian minorities and you know, hands off the St. Catherine Monastery and the Holy Family Trail. Obviously they're not doing it. That's the whole issue. If we could just get them to put it in as part of the package. But it's just not worth it. They don't want to jeopardize whatever it is, whatever deal they have. That particular factor is just not worth it. So that really underscores how different the mentalities are of so called Christians in the west in the 21st century compared to their, their forebears for this aspect of it.
- [11:10]
Steve Bannon
Where do people go? I want people to get as much information, particularly about St. Catherine's Monastery, the Holy Family Trail. You'll learn a lot. You'll learn about the Desert Fathers, you'll learn about the Church. Our church came out of the desert, right. It's very important in the first century. Christianity up until the middle of the second century was quite different than it is today. It was very much a desert religion. And it behooves us, I tell people that St. Augustine, I think arguably the greatest of all the thinkers in the early church of the Church Fathers was a Berber. Right. North African. He was a Berber. And all the great Church fathers in North Africa were North African.
- [11:53]
Raymond Ibrahim
Right. Well, the chief particular of the Nicene Creed, the chief articulator of the Nicene Creed, which all Christian denominations still now profess, was an Egyptian, Athanasios.
- [12:04]
Steve Bannon
Yes. No, we got to know that history and we got to defend that heritage. Where do people just go for this?
- [12:11]
Raymond Ibrahim
Yeah, I think this organization, Coptic Solidarity, if you go to their website, they have a lot of resources, a lot of actual special reports, some of which I write myself exclusively. Reports that deal with all of these topics, including the Saint, Saint Catherine Monastery and the Holy Family Trail. And there's petitions people can sign and ways to actually get involved in this, you know, in helping set this wrong to right.
- [12:37]
Steve Bannon
So let's pivot to the. Our subject for today is the First Crusade. We, we, we got the, the, the call of the Crusade last time. Now the Crusade is that it's been kicked around. Did the families. It was really a Norman, correct me if I'm wrong, it's really a Norman adventure. They were the tip of the spear with the Norman families. Is this that they get motivated to do this, that they have an economic reason to do it? I mean, people don't realize the Normans had already can't get, I think Sicily, Malta. I mean, they're just not up. It's just not Vikings meeting French girls in northwest, northwest France. These guys really spread out. Why did they, why did they go give the message to them first and did they embrace it?
- [13:24]
Raymond Ibrahim
They most certainly embraced it. And I think because it was widely understood that the Normans were essentially the ultimate warrior aristocracy of Europe at the time, for the reasons that you mentioned, they were highly active. They still maintained that sort of adventurous Viking spirit that saw the Vikings go all over the place, but now through a sort of Christian paradigm and a Christian mentality. So they were still fierce warriors, but they did it in the name of, on behalf of and in defense of Christendom. So I think that's why they were frequently targeted. And, you know, these messages also very much resonated with them. And this was also a little bit after the popes had decreed, you know, the peace. The peace, these peace treaties amongst Christians where, you know, in certain days you can't fight. And so all this martial energy that had hitherto been, you know, exhausted on each other because they were violent people was now kind of marshaled and directed towards a just cause. As it was seen, the First Crusade, which is helping these Christians who are being persecuted, as we discussed in the previous episode, which was beyond horrific. You know, just earlier today I was looking over some notes and I know I've many times regaled you with all the atrocities that were being committed right before the First Crusade. And looking again at my notes and my books, they're so much worse. You know, just the, the sheer amount, the horror, the actual widespread amounts of savagery is mind boggling. And so this is why it made sense that both the Normans and among them the Franks, of course, and the Franks is more of a generic term. And sometimes people conflate the Normans with them, even though they are of course, a separate group. But the Franks is generally, you know, Frankia, the French, but also all these other nations near them, Belgium was conflated with them. Sometimes the Germans were seen as Franks as well. So that's why the sources, both Muslim and frequently even the Latin sources, just talk about the Frankish people. But definitely the spearhead was very oftentimes the Normans. And that comes out very clearly, especially
- [15:28]
Steve Bannon
in the first Crusade in the First Crusade. How do we get from motivated in this speech in the field to up near where World War II invasion took place? You're in Normandy, and how do you go from there? Constantinople, which made the call for help, is a long ways away. And Jerusalem, if you're taking a land route around and not going by sea, is even further. Tell me about the logistics. How did they get started, how they get moving and where they're going to go by sea and do a direct assault upon the Holy Land? Or were they going to take the long way away and stop in Constantinople and actually really meet our allies for the first time?
- [16:09]
Raymond Ibrahim
Yeah, well, if you talk about the Crusades in general, it was often both and frequently later Crusades were mostly seaborne adventures from Europe, possibly because they learned from the First Crusade, which was all by land, and it was just very exhausting and tiring. You can imagine. These are pilgrims, most of them unhorsed, walking thousands of miles from the middle of Europe, let's say, all the way to Constantinople. And, yeah, the overwhelming majority of the first Crusaders, I think all of them actually, it was by land and they went there and just, you know, by the time they got to Constantinople, it was already. They'd been through all sorts of, you know, violence. Sometimes they provoked it because they didn't have enough food and not enough resources and their logistics had failed. You know, the People's Crusades, which is often, you know, highly condemned, which preceded the. It's part of the First Crusade, but it happens very soon after the call at Claremont by Urban ii, which we were referencing, and, you know, they're the ones who we often hear went and started causing, you know, chaos in the Rhine, attacking Jews, plundering, even fighting with fellow Christians. And tell about that.
- [17:17]
Steve Bannon
That was the People's Crusade. It was a Peter. Peter the Hermit, I think, was the Children's Crusade. The people. This. This crusade was not organized along military lines with either the Franks or the great Norman families. This is just people that got so motivated by the call that they. And they started out. They started out first. Correct. And they're going to hoof it around.
- [17:38]
Raymond Ibrahim
Yes, yeah. These were just very enthusiasts. And, you know, it was often before we called it the People's Crusade, it was known as the Peasants Crusade. So these were essentially peasants, not part of the military class who just got so inflamed with ardor, hearing what's going on and taking it as a pilgrimage. They just. They were the very first to take off and many people warned them not to. And to wait for the. Because the professional armies needed time, of course, to get the. To get themselves together and raise resources and properly prepare because they know what war is. Whereas the Peasants Crusades, it was just, you know, it was a. It was an act of extreme enthusiasm and they took off unprepared. And very often, yeah, with Peter the Hermit, often, he was their leader. But there was also another one, I think Walter something. And apparently he's one of the one who. Along the Rhine, when they were starving and there was no. Because they didn't plan correctly and they left early. They started basically saying, you know, why are we traveling all this distance to fight the Christ haters, the infidels over there, when they're right. Here was his argument basically in reference to the Jews. And so they attacked them, killed them, plundered them. But it's notable, we should keep in mind, because many people always. This is the one instance that almost everyone knows about when we talk about the Crusade and is always thrown out to basically discredit it. But you have to keep in mind that the Pope himself and the clergyman actually called it out, banned it, punished and even anathematized many of the people who were involved in this and when they could, would offer protection to the Jews. So we can't say that that was part. It was definitely part of it. It was a human aspect that went awry, but it was never sanctioned. It was not seen as a good thing. It was condemned officially by the Church. So that's important to keep in mind. But again, it's a reflection of how unprepared and just. This is not a warrior class. It's just zealot people who are traveling and who have no money, who have no food and are getting desperate and figured, well, we're going to attack these rich Christ killers. As it comes out in the sources,
- [19:47]
Steve Bannon
the. Whether it's the Peasants Crusade first or the real bulk of the army, the first Crusade, if you don't go by sea, you've got to go down through the Balkans. The little towns and villages in Hungary and these other places are not, you know, what is Yugoslavia. I guess they're not prepared for this. There was a lot of consternation. And some of these crusaders, I mean, these were rough folks, right? I mean, these are warrior class. And they had. At first, I think some of the times they were greeted favorably by towns they were looking forward to. They were very enthusiastic about this. But after the word got that these guys would, hey, kind of like take what they needed and you know, we'll give you a confederate dollar to pay for it. They're not exactly giving you gold or silver. People started saying, hey, we got to hide from these guys when they come. And that word got to Constantinople, right, that what they had called for showed up, which was a bunch of tough hombres, but tough hombres being what they were in those days, they brought a little deal baggage with them.
- [20:55]
Raymond Ibrahim
Right, right. Well, when the People's Crusade, the Peasants Crusade, they were the first to reach Constantinople. And Alexius, the emperor, he just ferried them over and he basically, he warned them, actually, he told them, no, wait, but, you know, you can't wait here. And they were again, very enthusiastic and said, no, we want to go there. So he was like, okay, it's your head. I warned you. And he ferried them over. And lo and behold, they got butchered to a man. And in fact, from the first. When the, when we say first Crusaders, we usually do mean the warrior class, the real Crusade, which sets. Which doesn't even start setting out till 1090, late 1096, early 1097, whereas these guys were already right after the call of Claremont in 1095, by 1096, I think they were already at Constantinople. He ferried them over. They just. With Peter the Hermit and some others, they were completely butchered to a man and the women were enslaved. And we have actually descriptions about what happened. And the first Crusaders, when they came to Nicomedia, which is one of the very first areas that was once you cross from Constantinople, they actually encountered a massive pyramid of heads. And it was the peasant crusaders who had been completely butchered, and they made. And the Turks made a. A pyramid of their head. But when the first Crusaders came, finally, they were definitely the tough hombres that Alexius was taken aback by. And, you know, he kept parlaying with them, trying to convince the leaders, the heads of the Crusade, such as Godfrey and Raymond of Toulouse and all these other men, to swear a sort of fealty to him and also to agree that whatever lands they conquer, they give it back back to him. And in return, he would give them support, because remember, the lands that they were entering into Anatolia, Asia Minor, were part of empire.
- [22:42]
Steve Bannon
But this is what I want to get. This is what I want to get the audience to understand after doing this march across Europe, down through. And you don't have super highways, so you're take. You're marching basically an army through unknown territory for them, all the way down through the Balkans, which is, you know, no easy task. Fighting a lot where you're going, because some of the locals are saying, hey, look, you can't have my stuff. They get to Constantinople, they're not welcome with open arms. It's not like, hey, come in, we want to show you the city, why don't you? We'll pass and review in front of the king. They're kept really on the European side, correct. I mean, there's a whole debate about, you know, we got to make it these. The head of the Byzantines has said, oh, my God, the reputation of these guys, we can't let them in. So it's a whole series of negotiations where they're not embraced. Correct?
- [23:37]
Raymond Ibrahim
Yes, this is true. It took a long time, lots of back and forth, lots of parlaying with him, until he got some assurances. And they got some assurances, and I think it's pretty notable that they even agreed to give the conquered lands. And they did, as we'll see, until, according to them, and it depends on who you're going to believe. But according to the Crusaders, eventually Alexios reneged during, I think, the siege of Antioch, which was a little bit later. And so then at that point, whatever they conquered, they just kept. But, you know, honestly, from Alexius, so the story goes, is he did call for help from the. From the Franks, from the Normans, from Pope Urban, and. But he only expected a sort of highly specialized elite warrior class. He did not expect a mass movement. This, in fact, the First Crusade is really seen as those kind of puzzling questions about how it became what it became, just based on preaching from Pope Urban and people like Peter the Hermit. Everyone expected, at best, you know, like, okay, we'll raise an army, and that would be the end of it. But it became a mass human movement. If you look at the sources, it literally talks about about 100,000 people, women and children, old people. It was. It was. Because it was a pilgrimage. It was an armed pilgrimage. And so apparently Alexius was not expecting that because it was such an overwhelming force that had already created some damage, as discussed, on their way down to his region, to Constantinople, and. But in the end, yes, he agreed to it. They made deals. He ferried them over. He did bring supplies, and actually the very first siege, which was Nicaea. So after the first Crusaders entered and they saw the pyramid of skulls in Nicopolis a little bit after they reached Nicaea, where the aforementioned Nicene Creed that I talked about in the year 325 was articulated under Constantine's first ecumenical council. And so Nicaea at This time is now controlled by the Turks and only recently it was only recently probably conquered something like 10 years earlier, maybe even less during the Turkish adventure.
- [25:41]
Steve Bannon
Raymond, Raymond, hang on one second. I'm, I'm going to take a break. We're going to continue in the second half. Want to thank our sponsor Birch Gold. The article and analysis from Dr. Jeffrey Tucker reinforces what we've been saying and we've got that up on our site and pushing that out to everybody. Want to be a force multiplied into the Dollar empire. There's a hardback edition of this as the seven of the original installments. As you get up to speed on everything, we've included an eighth online and we're working on the ninth. So there's eight installments now going to be nine. Make sure you talk to go to birchgold.com Bannon end of the Dollar Empire this, that with Tucker's piece and other pieces are going to come out, you'll start to understand how the purchasing power of the dollar is basically a devaluation done on your shoulders. This is why gold's exploded over the last couple of years. We kind of called this shot years ago. And now it's incumbent upon you to talk to Philip Patrick and the team at Birch Gold. Have them explain to you why central banks are buying gold at record rates in effect and more than they're buying US Government securities that are tied to the dollar. Short break Raymond Abraham on the other for the first time since World War II, our national debt held by the public has exceeded GDP. America, this is a wake up call. Our sins of the past reckless government spending have finally caught up to us. So what's next? Higher inflation, higher prices, higher cost of living expenses and higher interest payments on the national debt? Every dollar Washington spends on interest is a dollar it has to tax, borrow or print. Smart retirement planners prepare for potential setbacks and they can do that by diversifying with a time tested asset known for weathering the storm that is physical gold. Now physical gold you can get from my trusted friends at Birch Gold Group. Text the word Bannon B A N N O N to the number 989-898 and Birchgold will send you a free info kit on converting an existing IRA or or 401k into a tax sheltered IRA. In physical gold you don't pull the ripcord on your parachute once you've already hit the ground. Don't wait for economic turbulence to diversify. Text Bannon to the number 989-898. Again, text Bannon to 989-898, own some gold and own it from Birchgold. The American health care system is broken. And for most Americans, nothing changes. There's still delays, denials, high cost insurance roadblocks. So when I find people doing things differently, I talk about it all. Family Pharmacy is not your typical big chain pharmacy. This is an independent family owned pharmacy that gives you access to over 400 medications delivered straight to your door. They've got ivermectin, antibiotics, antivirals, nad, even your daily maintenance medications and so much more. If you already have a prescription, your doctor can send it directly. If you don't, their doctors handle it. As long as there is a medical necessity, they'll take care of you. And I'll tell you this, the feedback from people listening to this show and watching has been incredibly strong. People are using it, it's working for them and they're sticking with it. That's because it cuts out the delays, the middlemen and all the usual nonsense. This is about being ready before you need it. Go to allfamilypharmacy.com that's all one word. All family pharmacy.com Bannon and use code Bannon10 to save 10%. The health care system is broken. Your pharmacy doesn't have to be. If you're 65 or already on Medicare. Listen up folks, and grab a pen, maybe even a number two pencil. Call 845-WAR room. That's 845-WAR room. Call it right now. I'm serious. Call it now. Here's why. The insurance companies and their lackeys in the Washington swamp have built a Medicare system designed to confuse you and rip you off. Rising premiums, denied claims, fine print. Nobody but a lobbyist understands. Millions of American seniors are paying too much and getting too little. And worst of all, most don't even know it. Hey, that could be you. That's why if you're already on Medicare or will be soon, you need to talk to our friends at chapter. They have a team of advisors trained to serve American seniors, not the insurance companies. In under 20 minutes, they can find you the best plan for your needs at the lowest cost. Why? They're a data company. They have all the data on every plan. It's totally free. There's no pressure, no bs, just straightforward, honest help from fellow patriots. So don't wait. Call 845 war room right now. That's 845 war room. Tell them Bannon sent you. Now listen, in the first couple of days of the launch of this company with the Warren Posse. Posse members saved tens and up to hundreds of thousands collectively of dollars in these fees. Go check it out today. That's chapter call 845-WAR-ROOM. Do it today.
- [31:16]
Raymond Ibrahim
War Room.
- [31:17]
Steve Bannon
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- [33:45]
Raymond Ibrahim
Yeah, I'm familiar with that story. I think I may be wrong, but I think it might be part of the Second Crusade, not the first. And it was an accusation that was made against Alexius. You know, the Byzantines have their reverse accusation and exoneration, but it's definitely part of the, the narrative that the Crusaders believed in that. But I don't think it's in the first one. The first one. The main, the main complaint was that after, when they had finally. So this is important, right? When they get there, I tell, you know, I told you they were besieging Nicaea and they actually conquered it and on one condition, because the Turks were so terrified, they had fought back and the, you know, these Crusaders just had no compunction. The things that they would do, the Turks were the sorts of things the Turks would do, but they were not used to Byzantines doing so. For example, the Franks, after they saw that pyramid of skulls, and now they besieged Nicaea, they started to actually, in their catapults, when they were bombarding Nicaea, hurl the heads of the Turks that they had killed and they would impale the Turks and put them in front of them, in front of the walls of Nicaea. So at the very end, when they couldn't take it anymore, the Turks agreed to surrender only on condition that they surrender to Alexios. Basically they wanted the Crusaders to leave, and the Crusaders, you know, to their credit, agreed to it and they gave Nicaea to Alexios, even though it was their handiwork, their siege. So up until this point, they were still working together and Alexius was supporting
- [35:17]
Steve Bannon
was it, was it, was it could. It would be fair to say that the level of violence the Norman knights brought, actually the Turks were as tough as you could get, kind of shocked even the Turks. And they knew they had, you know, they weren't dealing with the Byzantine guys anymore. They were dealing with a whole new breed of cat. And these people scared them.
- [35:39]
Raymond Ibrahim
Yes, that actually does come out in the sources. It's pretty clear, explicitly and implicitly that. I mean, there's even anecdotes or speeches allotted to Kerboka, for example. He's one of these Arabegs who came to the relief of Antioch here in the First Crusade. And when he parlayed with the Crusaders, he basically said, this land is ours. We took it from a bunch of effeminate men in reference to the Byzantines. But when you look at what the Crusaders were doing, they basically, you know, it was tit for tat with them. They were not going to be cowed by these sort of terror tactics that the Muslims and the Turks had long been engaged in the beheading and that sort of thing. So they frequently engaged in what we would call terror tactics, beheading Turks. And also, interestingly, I know at least one source, and I quote it in Sword and Scimitar, a contemporary who says they were doing that literally as, as a reciprocal treatment because they wanted to give as good as they were getting. And so they were not going to be cowed by these sorts of terror tactics. If anything, they just said, okay, if you want to play that way, we'll play that way. So, yeah, it was definitely a different breed of Christian than what the Turks had hitherto been used to.
- [36:51]
Steve Bannon
When you come through Turkey, you've got, you know, you enter in the Holy Land, you got Syria, you get Lebanon, all the way down to Israel or Judea and eventually Jerusalem. The target. It's not a walk, it's not just a pilgrimage, it's not a walk in the park. You've got these great cities of Christendom that have been, you know, like Antioch and these others. You have to go almost major town by major town and have a siege. You have to take them back because you can't have the Turks behind your flank as you march. It wasn't. One of the biggest hang ups is that the battles they had to fight even before they got to Jerusalem, in that heat, with, you know, no logistics train, surrounded in a hostile environment, isn't that what kind of drained out the Crusaders?
- [37:34]
Raymond Ibrahim
Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. That was probably more, you know, harmful to the Crusaders, the first Crusaders than the Turks, than the Muslims were themselves nature, essentially. And in fact, right after the, we were talking about the Battle of Nicaea or the Siege of Nicaea, which they gave to Alexios in 1097, then, then they continued their march southward through Anatolia. And then one of the greatest battles, the Battle of Dory Laum took place. And this was an ambush by the Turks. And it was their full force. In fact, the sources talk about they had Arabs, they had, you know, Africans, of course, Turks, they had the Kurds. It was a large Muslim force that ambushed and it was supposed to put an end to the first Crusaders. And that was a really pretty brutal, savage battle because they were going through a pass, very empty pass, and they were stretched thin and they came very heavily, I believe, on the rear guard of the Crusaders. And you look at the sources, it was again, what's really notable about the wars of these first Crusades is just the complete, the amazing fortitude of these first Crusaders, because as you're mentioning during all this time, they are traveling, you know, hundreds and thousands of miles. And oftentimes at this point, it's pretty barren region, mountainous region in Anatolia where there's no one, then there's no water. And the Turks were poisoning whatever water there was, hard to find food. So this. So the travails that they experienced just from nature, you know, from hunger and famine and thirst and disease and pestilence, that itself really took out probably more crusaders than the actual Turks did.
- [39:08]
Steve Bannon
Yeah, it's siege of Antioch. Others, Tasso, the great poet of, I think Italian poet of the. Of the Middle Ages, wrote this magnificent epic poem like the Iliad called Jerusalem Delivered. Talk to me about when they finally, after Antioch and all the, you know, these sieges, this horrible conditions of the heat, they got all, you know, their armor. They're not meant. They're meant to fight up in northwest France, not in the deserts of the Holy Land. When they get to Jerusalem, talk to us about. Because the First Crusade is the one that delivered the goods. They did take back the holy city of Jerusalem.
- [39:46]
Raymond Ibrahim
Well, if I have a few minutes, there's a lot of more important stuff, actually. Jerusalem is certainly the climax. But after this battle of Dory Layim and the sufferings that they go through, two notable things happen. One, the first actual conquest, is the county of Edessa, which Baldwin, the brother of Godfrey, actually conquers. And how he does it is very interesting because the Christians, the indigenous Christians, primarily Armenians, Syrians as well, who were living there, were so oppressed by the Muslims that when these newcomers from the west came and everyone was just startled by their very appearance, these giants and metal walking in iron, walking around. But they noticed that they had crosses everywhere, cross banners. And so these indigenous Christians, recognizing that mutual symbol, the cross, would go up to them and throw themselves at their feet, kiss their feet and just see them as their deliverers. So they often help them, including in the conquest of Edessa. So that's really important to keep in mind because oftentimes I've read a lot of historians who make it sound like, oh, everything was fine in the Holy Land, Christians weren't suffering at all. In fact, it permeates the sources about how all these Christians, wherever they were Maronites in the mountains, when they'd find these men from the west come, always went to them and swore fealty and helped them, gave them food, gave them logistical help and advice and whatnot. So I think that's very important. And then the second thing is the siege of Antioch, which was in 1098. And that one was in many ways seen as more dramatic even than Jerusalem, because that one was so long, so prolonged. And again, famine. The Crusaders were reduced to eating, you know, let their own leather shoes, okay, Drinking their horse's blood, really desperate stuff. Okay. And. And the walls of Antioch. Antioch was one of the, you know, Antioch is where the word Christian was coined, according to the Book of Acts. So it really was an important place for Christians to reconquer. And long story short, they did manage to get it after I think, eight grueling months where so many more Christians died. Again, it's a testimony to their fortitude. And again, the Christians who were living in Antioch helped them. In fact, apparently the man that helped threw a rope and had them climb in at night through a tower is believed to have been an Armenian who had been forcibly converted to Islam. And his wife had been seduced and taken by the ruler, the Muslim ruler. And he was very bitter and vengeful. And then after that, finally, you know, so many Crusaders are dead. So many had already quit. So many and others stayed in Antioch. And then finally, under primarily the leadership of both of Godfrey of Bouillon, a very small band, finally went to the final goal, which is the taking of Jerusalem. And they went there again, very grueling, very brutal. It's just imagine, it's so hard to imagine the life of these men, these first Crusaders. It's just non stop war with no food, no drink, you know, just the bare necessities, if that, and enemies from everywhere. And at the same time you just see all the faith that they have. You know, someone like Godfrey, during all this time, he still kept a group of monks around him so he can celebrate mass like every day, you know, and that's what kept him going. The Battle of Antioch, which I didn't even mention. Right after they conquered Antioch, the Crusaders, a very large Muslim force came. It's the one I mentioned under Korboga. He was the Arabeg of Mosul. And that should have been the end of it because they had just been besieging Antioch. Now they finally got in and then the day later, something like 40,000 Muslims come and there's no food in Antioch because the Muslims there had already finished it during the siege. And at that point the Christian just said, okay, we're going to die, but we're going to do one final sally, we're going to go out and give it our best. They were like outnumbered, maybe something like 1 to 7. And the other guys, the Muslims are rested and well fed. And these guys, as I told you, have been through what they have been through. They came out and fought like utter mad men again to the point that the Muslims couldn't even believe it. The, the descriptions of the Crusaders are just, they're fighting and they look like porcupines. They literally say that in the sources because of all the arrows sticking out of them and they're still fighting. Most of them had no horses because they had eaten their horses already and they're on foot and they would kill and defeat Muslims and take their horses. So really amazing, stalwart stuff. And yeah, then it culminates with the conquest of Jerusalem, I think around July 15, 1099. And very similar, same dynamic that I've been describing goes on. It's prolonged not as long as Antioch actually. And because at the time Jerusalem wasn't that well prized or well cared about, that became an important place for Muslims later on for symbolic reasons. But even then it wasn't seen. Antioch was a greater loss actually for the Muslims at the time. And. Yep, so they finally got it. They finally mission accomplished. And it's just amazing. It's amazing by today's standards when we think about warfare and what drives men to war, what they fight for. And just what these guys fought for was something so transcendent, it's hard to actually comprehend with our modern minds to see how it drove them to these amazing feats.
- [44:56]
Steve Bannon
What was the, the motivational force? Were they doing spiritual exercises? Were they constantly having mass said? Were they having confessions and, and, or the Holy Eucharist? What. Because when you read this, it's all, it's so unbelievable given the conditions, given the hostility, given how far from home you are, given how you're losing, you know, compadres every day or some are just quitting and getting a boat and getting, you know, not going to march back. They're going to take a boat and get to Italy. The, the ones that were there at the end are such heroes of such scale. How did they do it? How. What was the motivating force that drove these against all odds to deliver Jerusalem?
- [45:43]
Raymond Ibrahim
I would argue it was love, believe it or not, because that's what they said, that's what the sources show, that they actually were trying to follow Christ's commandment, which is love God with all your mind and your heart and love your fellow man. And both were under extreme assault. The Holy Land, the Holy Sepulcher, had been destroyed even earlier, was again under attack. And you know, sacred sites is something very important to Christians Back then, just like it is today to Jews and Muslims, not Christians anymore, apparently. So it was very important to go and recover the Holy Sepulcher because it was being desecrated and all the other churches. So that was their expression of love for God, but also love for their fellow man, the other Christians who were under assault, who were being killed. This is why these Christians, as I said, when the crusaders did appear, went and threw themselves at their feet and thanked them. Okay? So believe it or not, it was a very muscular kind of love. Not the sort of love that, you know, some sentimental, cloying kind of love that we talk about now. And that, I believe, is what actuated them and, you know, kept them going as long as they could to engage and perform these essentially supernatural acts. When you read them and you see what they were able to accomplish with nothing, literally no food even, and they're fighting their case, you know, they're carrying from the sea, carrying on their back for miles lumber so they can build catapults and without food and with pestilence. It's just really amazing, you know, what the human spirit can do when it actually has something meaningful to fight for.
- [47:12]
Steve Bannon
I want to hold. I want to hold and give the details of actually the siege of Jerusalem. We'll come back to that. Do a whole hour in that, because it's so unbelievable. Before I let you go, given the conference you're at today, given your writings, all that, what are the lessons of the first Crusade for young men, you think, in Christendom today?
- [47:33]
Raymond Ibrahim
Well, the lessons are, you know, times were really bad. Christians were under assault. You know, there was all kinds of attacks, explicit, implicit attacks inside, subversive attacks, external attacks. And this goes actually to my idea of the two swords of Christ, which we'll talk about another time, how, you know, the Christians had to fight spiritual warfare, subversive warfare, but also physical warfare. And those Christians of the time, like I said, were very much actuated by the commandments of Christ. And, you know, the concept of love that they had is not what we have. Like I said, we have this weird sentimental. It's like a feeling to them, love is what love really means, which is willing the good for the other. And so I'm going to sacrifice myself for the love of the other so I can relieve the other from what he's suffering. And I think that sort of thing was so motivating. I think it would be motivating today to people if that's actually what they were fighting for. Of course, our wars today have Nothing to do with that. And so I think the lesson is that when you actually have a true motivation, a true goal, something that's pious, something that's good, something that really jives with the human spirit, you can do all sorts of things as long as it's there. And nowadays I don't think we have those kinds of motivations as much anyway.
- [48:51]
Steve Bannon
Where do they get your three books? Sword and Scimitar gives us the whole conflict between Islam since its rise in Christendom. You've got Defenders of the west, which talks about these amazing figures, Richard the Lionhearted, all the different Godfrey of all the Crusades. It's just incredible. And then you've got the two swords of Christ, which are the military orders. So I tell people, read all three of them and you can start with any one. They're all magnificent. Where they get your writings, where they get your articles. Raymond, because you're doing a tremendous public service by writing these books like novels. They're all page turners.
- [49:32]
Raymond Ibrahim
Thank you, Steve. I appreciate that. You know, all three books can. You can get them easily on Amazon. That's the easy place. Or any other online bookstore. Some bookstores like Barnes and Nobles, actually, I'll walk in and they'll have at least usually sorted in Scimitar. They'll have. And so you can get them there. You can get them from my website. You can get a signed copy, which will helps me out. Helps my website out as well. Just go there, you can get it there. And also my writings, you can get them on my substack, which is just my name with substack. And also I have a YouTube channel. I'm trying to now reach the younger generation by putting all this information in video formats and doing it that way.
- [50:08]
Steve Bannon
That's amazing, Raymond. Hope you had a great conference. We want to get more information about that. We'll promulgate it and push it all out. And thank you for taking time away in D.C. to come by the. To come by the war himself and. And walk us through the first Crusade. We'll do a whole hour on just taking. The taking of Jerusalem the first time. So it's such an incredible story that it's just unbelievable. The Tasso's poem Jerusalem Delivered. I recommend anybody. You think that all the epic poems are just like the Iliad and the Odyssey or the Aeneid. It's not. They've got one about the First Crusade. Jerusalem Delivered. Thank you so much, Raymond. Appreciate you being here.
- [50:43]
Raymond Ibrahim
Thanks very much, Steve.
- [50:45]
Steve Bannon
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