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WarRoom Battleground EP 773: The Dark World Of Organ Harvesting And Human Trafficking
WarRoom Battleground EP 773: The Dark World Of Organ Harvesting And Human Trafficking ...
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- [00:00]
Steve Bannon
So, David, never in a million years did I expect that I would meet an actual survivor of forced organ harvesting, of this barbaric practice that the Chinese.
- [00:12]
Jan Jekielek
Regime has been involved in for decades. Tell me about Mr. Cheng's case.
- [00:19]
David Matas
I could see in terms of the raw data there's something there because he's obviously Falun Gong practitioner. He's obviously been organ and harvested because we've got the medical reports. I mean, the X rays don't lie. So I spent a fair amount of time basically just kind of getting the chronology, the names and the dates and so on.
- [00:42]
Pei Ming Chun
My name is Pei ming Chun. In November 2004, I was forcibly taken from Daqing prison to the Forest Hospital of Daqing where they did a surgery on me. This is my surgery scar. It's 35cm long. Today, as I stand here, I may appear normal. I walk and speak normally, but in reality I can never return to the person I once was. My left side is in constant pain and it throbs with every beat of my pulse. At night, I struggle to breathe when I lie down, and it is truly unbearable.
- [01:39]
Jan Jekielek
Pei Ming Chang was able to come to America with the help of former Assistant Secretary of State for Democracy, Human Rights and Labor, Robert Destrow.
- [01:48]
Steve Bannon
What did it take to get Mr. Cheng here? Because I understand there was a bounty on his head.
- [01:53]
Robert Destro
There was a bounty on his head. He was hiding in Thailand. And when I heard about the case, I said, well, let's get him out. And so we had to negotiate with the Thai government because he wasn't in Thailand legally. So we got him out and we brought him here and the rest is history. We put him through extensive medical testing and imaging and everything else. And it's pretty clear consensus that they took stuff out. We are now confirming the suspicions we've had for all these years that Mr. Chang was a victim of forced organ harvesting. We now know that and the Chinese have confirmed the details.
- [02:31]
Jan Jekielek
Well, so explain to me about that.
- [02:33]
Steve Bannon
How is it that they could have possibly confirmed the details?
- [02:36]
Robert Destro
Well, they confirmed that the surgery happened. You know, they confirmed where it happened, they confirmed when it happened and what we were able to do because we were able to get Mr. Chang here in the United States, we were able to get independent experts to look inside and see what's missing. We confirmed that part.
- [02:56]
Steve Bannon
So what did it take?
- [02:59]
Jan Jekielek
At the time, Cheng had been serving an eight year sentence and had endured extreme torture and repeated electric shocks. The Chinese regime claims the surgery was to help him after Cheng, in protest of his persecution, swallowed a small Blunt nail and blade. But medical experts say there's no reasonable scenario where the operation which removed significant portions of Cheng's liver and lung, could have been to retrieve such swallowed items.
- [03:26]
Robert Destro
As the record shows, they didn't need to go into his side, all the way around his back and through his chest. They could have gone down into his esophagus with an endoscope and pulled everything out. They were fishing.
- [03:39]
Steve Bannon
You, of course, are speaking to the sort of official.
- [03:42]
Robert Destro
The official narrative.
- [03:44]
Steve Bannon
Yes. Is it, is it surprising to you that there was any official narrative at all?
- [03:50]
Robert Destro
Yes, I'm amazed that there's any official narrative at all. They've engaged on the conversation, and as we lawyers would say, that's an admission against interest.
- [04:03]
Stephen K. Bannon
This is the primal scream of a dying regime. Pray for our enemies because we're going medieval on these people. I got a free shot. All these networks lying about the people. The people have had a belly full of it. I know you don't like hearing that. I know you try to do everything in the world to stop that, but you're not going to stop it. It's going to happen.
- [04:25]
Steve Bannon
And where do people like that go.
- [04:26]
Stephen K. Bannon
To share the big lie?
- [04:28]
Steve Bannon
MAGA Media. I wish in my soul, I wish that any of these people had a conscience.
- [04:35]
Stephen K. Bannon
Ask yourself, what is my task and.
- [04:37]
Steve Bannon
What is my purpose?
- [04:39]
Stephen K. Bannon
If that answer is to save my.
- [04:41]
Steve Bannon
Country, this country will be saved. War Room.
- [04:46]
Stephen K. Bannon
Here's your host, Stephen K. Ban. It's Wednesday the 21st of May, year of our Lord 2025. Thank you for being here for the second hour of our late afternoon early evening show. I've wanted to do this for a long time. You saw that horrific cold open. Jan Yakalik joins me. Jan, huge fan. Epoch Times. Amazing show. And a great investigative reporter in the best broadsheet in this nation, the Epoch Times. I've also asked Liz Yorr and Ben Harnwell to join me. Ben from Rome, because this speaks to a bigger issue. You're an expert on this situation with organ harvesting by the Chinese Communist Party. It is so barbaric, so incomprehensible. And one of the reasons I've asked the other folks on here, because the persecution of Falun Gong and the persecution of the Catholic Church and the underground evangelical Christians is so out of control with the Chinese Communist Party. And the rest of the world just looks the other way, including the. The Catholic Church, which has a secret deal with them. And I know I saw you on one of the webinars on the committee on the Present Danger of China, which I'm one of the founders, was so brilliant. But let's start with in the 21st century. It's so barbaric. I think we almost have to explain to people how this actually goes on because people are saying, well, hang on, we give these people plenty of capital. We have commerce. President Trump's talking about a deal now with these guys. We're not going to cut them off. We're not going to uncouple, maybe strategic young couple. But this barbaric practice. And the Catholic Church has a deal with these guys. Limbs select the bishops. Walk me through the organ harvesting part of this, how you got interested, how you came upon this and how you became kind of, I guess, the expert in the west on this.
- [06:42]
Steve Bannon
Well, Steve, first of all, thank you so much for having me on. You know, while you were indisposed, if I'll say that lightly, Kash Patel was hosting for you and had me on a little bit about this. And I was incredibly grateful. It was such a huge response. The issue with this, for starters, is that it's a crime. That is something that people don't want to believe. There's, in fact, there's a film called Hard to Believe about it. I mean, we're talking about at scale, state sanctioned murder for organs, people, prisoners of conscience in the forced labor camps, in the dark black jails, in the prisons, being blood type, tissue type, medically tested ahead of time to the tune of I don't know how many, but hundreds of thousands, if not millions, and then ready to be killed to or order by the regime. And I might add, you know, this is something we know has been happening at scale, you know, something 60 to 90,000 a year of these transplants that are happening with really no credible organ source. Right. There's no credible organ donor registry. We could talk about that.
- [07:47]
Stephen K. Bannon
When you say at scale, explain that to people. The whole preamble at scale. This is an industrial process. This is just not one or two bad guys trying to do this for money or some mad scientist at some jail or some prison. This is actually state sanctioned. It's an industrial process. It's very much like the industrial process to eradicate the Jews during the Holocaust was an industrial. If you've ever been to the camps, you see how the German engineering mind thought this down to the microeconomics of it. You're saying that this is the same type of thing?
- [08:22]
Steve Bannon
Well, so that's a really interesting question, Steve. In 2000, pardon me, in 2020, the China Tribunal was convened by a guy named Sir Jeffrey Neese. And Sir Jeffrey basically got all the experts. And I would add, I'm not really the expert. There's a few out there that are, I would call the experts like David Matis, Ethan Gutman. A number of people have dedicated their lives to this issue. Torsten Trey is another one. I'm kind of de facto an expert because I've been covering it for 19 years and I just know more about it than most people. But no, so, so here's the issue. The China Tribunal is the definitive body of information. They took a year to gather all of the evidence they could. Chinatribunal.com that's the website if you want to understand the breadth of this, the huge body of information. But here's what they struggled with. They asked themselves, is this genocide? Right. Because this, this is a much abused word these days. But, but genocide is the intent to eradicate a group of people in whole or in part that intent part.
- [09:24]
Stephen K. Bannon
Like the Holocaust.
- [09:25]
Steve Bannon
Like the Holocaust, exactly. And so what they strug was, you know, David Matis estimates it's about, I think he said, a $9 billion annual industry over there. So, you know, there's a significant profit, profit motive. So what they struggled with is, well, if, if, if the pro. If there's this profit motive, maybe the motive isn't a rat. It isn't to destroy the group of people. So it might not quite be genocide. Maybe it's just a horrible crime against humanity. I mean, I'm being a little bit glib here, right? But, but that's the level of debate. The question is, is it, you know, fully intentional? But of course we know there's a level of intent because Jiang zemin back in 1999 where he, when he outlawed Falun Gong and said in his words, eradicate this group, he even wasn't necessarily saying kill everybody. Part of it was transform them, re educate them. And if they're, if they comply, you know, we can, we can let them go. But what happens when you use that type of language that's actually genocidal language because if the people don't comply and it turned out that the Falun Gong were unus resistant to this horrible, horrible things they did to them. I won't even go to the, into the details. I mean like totally medieval methods of torture and horror to basically, you know, all Falun Gong deaths, this was an unwritten rule, would be considered suicides. Right? Because you basically meaning you can work on this person, do whatever. The point was when they turned out to be so resistant to be able to this transformation. Well, I guess. I guess it has to be death then, right? I mean, I'm not. I don't know someone was exactly thinking that, but that's the logical conclusion. So, you know, Bob Destro, former Assistant Secretary of state for DRL, back in Trump, 45, he believes it's a genocide, along with Tibetans and Uyghurs, which are the Uyghurs of the official group that's being genocided in China. This is something we forget. We talk about making deals, we talk about doing this. There's like, they are. You know, it's very difficult to get someone to say, yes, a real, actual genocide is happening, then a entire eradication of an entire group of people. We officially believe that. Well, the U.S. government believes that according to at least one group, I would argue at least three, in communist China. So, you know, you got to be careful when you're dealing with a literally genocidal regime.
- [11:37]
Stephen K. Bannon
When you talk about prisoners are conscious in industrial scale, at scale in 60 to 90,000 a year, of these parts are organ harvested. So that must be from individuals. Are these prisoners of conscience, principally Falun Gong? Did they use this as they target Falun Gong, the spiritual practice, because of this?
- [12:01]
Steve Bannon
That's a great question. So when you look at the growth of the organ industry in China, and keep in mind there's no organ registry, right. They're basically, from what we know, they were using people that were, quote, unquote, disposable people. Actually, one of the earliest accounts of this organ harvesting happening from a prisoner is by a Uyghur surgeon who I've spoken with. Now, basically, it's the China Tribunal that came up with this 60 to 90,000. That's kind of where it got to. But at the beginning, if you chart the persecution of Helen gong beginning in 1999, that's exactly when the whole organ industry takes off stratospherically in exponential growth from basically 1999 to 2000.
- [12:46]
Stephen K. Bannon
Individual. That said, we can monetize these people and in doing it, terrorize them so much that they'll give up the spiritual practice.
- [12:54]
Steve Bannon
So we don't know who that is. I have some theories about it, actually, myself, but we don't. We don't have any definitive evidence. We do know that in the Communist Party mentality and approach, if you are deemed an enemy of the state, if you are deemed, you basically become disposable. I mean, they kind of see people in general as disposable, but you have an. There's an Extra level of contempt. And that's why there was this huge, huge propaganda campaign that was launched. I mean, they said, these people eat their children, they burn themselves alive, all sorts of really extreme things. Because you had a group that was incredibly popular in the 90s. I mean, to the 60 as it was a 70 to a hundred thousand, sorry, 100 million people were practicing this in China, in mainland China, per government estimate. Right.
- [13:40]
Stephen K. Bannon
Just I remember seeing it in Hong Kong in. In the mid-90s, I guess it was. And I asked somebody what it was, and they said, it's a spiritual practice related to Buddhism and had this physical. You know, I saw people out there practicing. And he told me, I was in Hong Kong, just come and start forever. He says, well, it's all over the mainland. And I was like, this is all over the mainland? He goes, yeah, it's everywhere. It's huge. And I did make the comment at the time. I said, well, I don't know how long this is going to go, because those are guys that don't like. They don't like people having associations that are not related to the Communist Party 100%.
- [14:14]
Steve Bannon
And there's this other.
- [14:15]
Stephen K. Bannon
Is that what happened exploded so much.
- [14:17]
Steve Bannon
Much. It exploded. But here. Here's the really interesting thing. And I think this is the real reason why the persecution became so heavy on this particular group. I'll add it because it took me maybe 15 years of looking at this to actually kind of have this realization. Yes, there were more Falun Gong practitioners in the Communist Party. And it's a very jealous, you know, organization. It doesn't like things bigger than it.
- [14:36]
Stephen K. Bannon
Communist Party is only about 90,000 individuals back.
- [14:39]
Steve Bannon
So back in the time, I think it. If I recall, it was about 60,000. And it was 70 to 100 or 70. Yeah. But anyway, there was also this jealousy of Jiang Zemin because Li Hongzhi, who was the founder of Falun Gong, he had kind of had the love of the people. It was generally known that Falun Gong practitioners are healthy and moral. Truthfulness, compassion, forbearance. People are living by these principles and are very serious about it. And here's the really interesting part. Lihongzhi wrote voluminous teachings, okay? He's called the Master, the teacher. Some people don't like the word master. And. But there aren't a lot of rules, okay? Voluminous teachings, but not a lot of rules. One of them is, you can't enrich yourself from it. I mean, I'll tell you, these are my interpretation of what the rules would be Something every Falun Gong practitioner would agree to. Another one is, you know, there's no worship of the master or the teacher. Another one is you never coerce someone to do it. Right. Another one is, let's say you're a really great Falun Gong practitioner. You practice truthfulness, compassion, forbearance really well. Okay? I can't emulate you. I can't say you're my great model of a Falun Gong practitioner. I have to yourself, I have to understand the teachings and live them myself. And that's actually what defines me. There's no roster, there's no houses of worship or anything of this nature. None of this. It's what defines you as a Falun Gong practitioner is you live the teachings. So what struck me, Steve, it was like, this is an unbelievable level of agency. Like basically 70 to 100 million Chinese in the communist system, which kind of demands you be kind of an automaton of the system. Right. Are suddenly exercising and believing incredible agency. Right. Compared to any other. There's nothing keeping you in being a Falun Gong practitioner. Even in religions where you have. There's no hierarchy. Another one rule would be there's no hierarchy. It's your internal level that matters. There's no one to tell you what to do in the teaching.
- [16:32]
Stephen K. Bannon
In the teaching itself, though. Could you be. Could you take on Falun Gong and then be a member, also be a member of the Chinese Communist Party?
- [16:40]
Steve Bannon
I mean, there were many people in that, in that situation.
- [16:43]
Stephen K. Bannon
There are many people in the Chinese Council that took up the spiritual practice.
- [16:46]
Steve Bannon
Absolutely, absolutely. I remember it was being actually taught. There's, there's examples. I know someone who was in one of the headquarters in Beijing who was learning it because someone was teaching it. I mean, this was. Through all this is the other part about this movement, right? It was all the way from the migrant.
- [17:01]
Stephen K. Bannon
No wonder they try to shut you guys down.
- [17:03]
Steve Bannon
Well, Michael, migrant field worker, all the way up to the high level Communist Party official and a number. And there's, you know, evidence that people even in the politburo or their relatives were practicing in 99. And actually a lot of people advised James Minh back in the day, do not do this. These are decent people. It's nonviolent. That would probably be another role. Right? Again, you know, well, why the crackdown?
- [17:25]
Stephen K. Bannon
They got, they got nervous and, and why this hideous. Because they've cracked down. We're going to have been. They've cracked down on the, on the house evangelical Christians. They've cracked down, unfortunately. A shame to us, they've cut a deal with the Vatican to basically eradicate the underground, real Catholic Church, the state Catholic Church. What was it about Falun Gong that they determined they had to have this hideous practice to basically not just torture them, but send the thing out. Their fear that if you continue on this, you could be rolled up into industrial level organ harvesting.
- [17:59]
Steve Bannon
Well, I think that a big part of it was just the scale because this group was much bigger than anything else, right? They've been persecuting weed, Tibetans, but these are somewhat smaller, isolated, geographically isolated groups. This was, and this was kind of everybody. But this is the part. It's this agency part. Like, think about it. If I'm a communist leader, right? And I suddenly, I think, by the way, there's evidence. Jiang Zemin believed that in two weeks he could roll up Falun Gong. He thought it would go away in a few weeks, right? But it turns out these people do not reeducate easily. In fact, there's numerous accounts of practitioners literally telling the torturer, you know, this is, this is bad for you. You're gonna, you know, you're gonna suffer for this. Yes, I'm suffering now, but you're gonna suffer a lot more later. Like, that's the approach. And people literally walking away from that saying, you know what? Good point. I don't think I want to torture this person anymore. I mean, the scale of it. Just imagine across all of China, right? So the, the flip side is what it turned, what it created was the largest, arguably the largest, civil disobedience movement in existence today, where you have tens of millions of people going around China. The way Falun Gong practitioners do it is they have, you know, they have. There's like an estimated 200,000 underground printing presses, DVD pressing sites. And they just go to people and say, look, the propaganda you heard is wrong. Let me tell you about what Falun Gong really is about. And by the way, the problem isn't Falun Gong. The problem is communism. It's the Communist Party. And by the way, you should actually quit the Communist Party because you don't.
- [19:27]
Stephen K. Bannon
But you don't have still the mass. What I saw in Hong Kong, where you had 500, 000 people in the morning at dawn doing that's gone underground.
- [19:34]
Steve Bannon
That's gone underground. They wrap it up. But there's examples. So Freedom House some years ago did a, did a report on China and what they found was, despite it being like one of the really top persecuted groups in China in some provinces where the fellow this they they guessed that because of this work, this advocacy work that the Falun Gong had been doing in these relative provinces, the persecution had gone down somewhat because people are just like, you know what, I know that regime is saying these people are evil, but I'm just not seeing that we're going to not do it as much.
- [20:03]
Stephen K. Bannon
Frank, why is the US and other governments, if it's so obvious in this organ harvesting, the China Tribunal, you can show facts and you can also show that this is not a murderous death cult, which is the way the Chinese Communist Party pursues. Why have the nations of the world not come together? This is the most barbaric thing I think is out there live organ harvesting from people for money. And they've kind of targeted these prisoners of conscience. Why have the nations of the world not stood up and said this is impossible, we're not going to have any more trade. You're not going to get access to our capital markets, we're not going to give you guys visas to come here. Why have the nations of the world not stood up? Is the evidence not there or is it just willful blindness?
- [20:48]
Steve Bannon
Well, it's worse than that. I'm just going to give you one example. So prior to this survivor where I think you rolled a clip of this Oregon harvest, where I never thought we'd ever see. It's just an unbelievable thing that he exists. They took part of his liver and lung. Big 14 inch gash in his side. There's a paper in the American Journal of Transplantation. The title of the paper is Few years back Execution by Organ Procurement. What they did was they did a literature survey of the Chinese transplant literature. What they found was that there's at least 70 papers and this was not by no means comprehensive. Where it's clear that the method of death of the person is the extraction of the organs itself. In other words, the dead donor will death. Death is being violated. And my read on this is that.
- [21:31]
Stephen K. Bannon
It'S so normalized, they're live. When they take the organ out, they're like, get a live organ, which is more valuable.
- [21:37]
Steve Bannon
Correct.
- [21:37]
Stephen K. Bannon
And the person dies because either the surgery itself or the care afterwards is not good.
- [21:42]
Steve Bannon
And it's so normalized that they just write it into their translation. I don't think they even realize they're writing and murdering people into their research. Right. That's published. Right. But to your answer, I think there's multiple answers. Right. One is a lot of people don't want to believe it. That's the dealing with. I've been Covering crimes against humanity for, you know, two decades now. People just don't want to believe that it's happening. That's part of the problem. Another part of the problem is when you say it's really happening, that means, you know, this is why there's a genocide Convention, which we haven't really followed very much. The Genocide Convention exists to say there's certain things which are beyond the pale. There's certain things that are so extreme that it justifies intervening and trying to stop them, like you just described. It's the most ghastly thing out there.
- [22:28]
Stephen K. Bannon
Have people gone to the genocide? Has the tribunal that met for a year, have they taken their evidence and gone to Switzerland or gone to the genocide? And where is the standard process?
- [22:39]
Steve Bannon
The problem is that, as you know, and probably have covered extensively on War Room, the CCP has a lot of inroads at the U.N. you know, and indeed it sits on the Human Rights Council. What are you talking.
- [22:50]
Stephen K. Bannon
They control Geneva. The engine room of the UN is basically controlled by the Chinese Communist Party. It's, it's the reason we're getting out of the World Health Organization.
- [22:58]
Steve Bannon
It's a, it's, it's, it's a huge, huge problem. And if that system is to be reformed, a lot of people believe it can't be. I, I still think it might be, but there's no way to do it without extracting the Chinese Communist Party.
- [23:10]
Stephen K. Bannon
I want to bring Liz and Ben after the break, but here's what I want to do in leading up to the break, because this is even more outrageous that the Catholic Church could have a deal with a government that does it. Walk people through. We got a couple of minutes. Walk them through the process of live organ harvesting from the victims. For sarcasm. I want people to have. I want their nose rubbed in this.
- [23:30]
Steve Bannon
Well, so, you know, the. One of the first examples that we know of is actually head of the Israeli Transplant Association, Jacob Levy, who's been a hero in this, by the way. Another someone I would call an expert in 2005, his patient comes to him in Israel. They have socialized medicine, they pay for transplants. This guy's been waiting for a while, and he says, look, I got an opportunity in China in two weeks. They're going to set it up for me. They scheduled it for me and Jakob, you know, being child of hostile Holocaust survivors, he says, this isn't. There's no way this is going to happen. Right. Because people don't do such things. Because you have to know when someone's Going to be dead. Meaning you kill them. Right. In order to do that transplant. Sense of. But the guy says, well, I'm going. So he goes, comes back, he's got the transplant. And Jakob realizes, oh my God, this is. Something horrible is happening here. These are the beginnings we had. You know, a woman came to us who has. Whose husband was a transplant surgeon who told her after screaming at night, and she. Her demanding that he tell her what happened. She said he told her, I extracted 2,000 corneas from living people. And that is why I'm corny as either your eye.
- [24:35]
Stephen K. Bannon
2000 eyeballs.
- [24:36]
Steve Bannon
Yeah, that's. I mean, and all this, this was, this was the rumor. This is like we didn't. We're just like, this is. Be unbelievable. Like I, I don't even know what to make of it.
- [24:43]
Stephen K. Bannon
And the victim's blind after that, lost their eye.
- [24:45]
Steve Bannon
Well, I suspect that they don't leave them around, you know, or they. Yeah, this is the point. When you have, when you treat people as disposable objects, does it matter if they're just in the prison? You know, just less mouth to feed. Right. So anyway, that's when David Matis, who's one of these experts, David Kilgore, may he rest in peace. Unfortunately he passed from us. He was a huge Catholic warrior, I might add, back in the day. And they were asked, basically they took on the task of assessing whether this could be real. And they found 17 lines of evidence. One of the. Was this two week wait time was a very profound piece of evidence for organs.
- [25:21]
Stephen K. Bannon
They were notifying somebody prepared to pay, come over. It's two weeks.
- [25:25]
Steve Bannon
So think about it. For 200, 100 or 200 grand, that could be your life. It's a very attractive proposition if you're willing to forget the fact that someone's being killed.
- [25:32]
Stephen K. Bannon
They take every major. They would go after every major organ.
- [25:35]
Steve Bannon
And they would tell. And they would tell people, they would tell those people it's a death row prisoner that's being used to make you assuage your conscience. Right. But that even the wildest, you know, sort of estimates of death penalty is orders of magnitude greater the amount of transplants. And then later, when they allegedly created a transplant registry in China, there's a. Another paper in one of the transplant journals that shows that it's a perfect quadratic equation. In other words, they invented the data and they weren't even very good at inventing the data. Right. So anyway, it's the. The and it's. It's macabre. Because you have to transplant from, aside from corneas, you have to transplant from a living person. And, and you know, it's just, just, it's, it's better that way. It's a healthier organ. So, you know, you can just imagine what happens. And it's a perfect, it's the perfect crime scene because you're cleaning it up afterwards. And these people, and this is something David Matus pointed out to me once, I've never forgotten, they're so vulnerable. Imagine you're Falun Gong. You know, there's millions of people being put into the labor camp prison system. You're not telling people who you are because they're gonna take your family, right? So you're this nameless person in the system that disappears. Who knows what happened. No one imagines in the early years that it's organ harvesting. You just died or something, right?
- [26:46]
Stephen K. Bannon
Disappear. Okay, short break. We're going to get the, the disgrace and shame of the Catholic Church and signing a deal with these guys. With young next in the world.
- [27:01]
Liz Yore
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- [29:18]
Stephen K. Bannon
You should read it.
- [29:19]
Liz Yore
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Stephen K. Bannon
It's a lifeline.
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Liz Yore
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- [30:39]
Ben Harnwell
War Room here's your host, Stephen K. Bannon.
- [30:44]
Stephen K. Bannon
By the way, the road to Rio for The Rio Reset. Birchgold.com Bannon for the Rio Reset. The seventh free installment. Read them all. Do that. And also make contact with Philip Patrick and his team. Bond market all over the place. Financial turbulence all over the place. President Trump's big meeting this afternoon with the House Freedom Caucus. And more on that gonna be tomorrow morning. It's gonna be a long night tonight. Birchgold.com Bannon do it today. The China Tribunal. Was that a Falun Gong thing or put together by the.
- [31:21]
Steve Bannon
By the.
- [31:22]
Stephen K. Bannon
By the religious group, your spiritual group, or is that independent?
- [31:27]
Steve Bannon
No, in fact, this is. It was. It's actually a very powerful group of experts that Sir Jeffrey Nice ultimately convened, you know, a panel, I mean, one professor of really, really, really high level professor from, I think, Penn. I always mix up Penn State or University of Pennsylvania. Arthur Waldron was part of that. Part of that.
- [31:49]
Stephen K. Bannon
Arthur Waldron, renowned China hand.
- [31:51]
Steve Bannon
Exactly. So, I mean, this was a completely, completely independent and that. And particularly powerful. And they brought people from all over the place, including a former New York Times reporter who had heard.
- [32:02]
Stephen K. Bannon
And it was so outrageous. That's where they got involved and had to have this tribunal. Took a year. Okay, we're gonna get to that. One of the reasons I wanted to invite my two Catholic colleagues on here. You were on the committee on the Present Danger. I think a couple weeks ago in one of our webinars, you said something very powerful that's not repeated enough. You said you're not Catholic, but you said, one of the issues with this secret deal with the Catholic Church, it gives credibility to the regime, to the brutality, and it makes it harder for not just Falun Gong, but for everybody else when you have such a powerful spiritual institution as the Catholic Church essentially in business with them and allowing them to kind of run and oversee the religion in mainland China. Can you expound on that?
- [32:49]
Steve Bannon
Absolutely. I mean, the Vatican deal is a total head scratcher for me. Basically, it was penned in 2018, it's been renewed a number of times, and it makes no sense because the fate of Catholics in communist China has only gotten worse the whole time. Like, you would think if the deal has the opposite effect, you would kind of get rid of it. Right. Let's assume best faith. Right. They're thinking, hey, we want to make life better for the Catholic faithful. They have not done that. But what they have done to your point earlier is it basically says, look to the world. Look, the Vatican feels like you can kind of deal with this regime reasonably, and we can kind of negotiate around who the bishops will be. And we don't actually know exactly the details of the deal. But I remember just before you were talking about Hong Kong earlier, just before the National Security Law came into effect, I had the honor of interviewing one of the Catholics I respect most out there, Cardinal Zen. Right. And of course, he was out there. He says, absolutely. And he was out there explaining why does it not, you know, why is this a crazy idea? And he was trying. And the previous Pope wouldn't see him. And it was very sad. But ultimately, that webinar, I had no idea how bad it had been for Catholics until I was on that webinar. I was like, this is really beyond the pale. But ultimately, this is the issue, whoever you are. Right. Basically, it puts in Chinese, they call it putting powder on the face of the regime. Okay. Like, if you know that someone is doing live organ harvesting, a crime yet to be seen on this planet, and it's part of the normal operations of a regime. Right. How can you expect good faith in negotiations?
- [34:27]
Stephen K. Bannon
Is there any doubt in your mind that the senior level of the Catholic Church, knowing their intelligence network and how they're dialed in, Is there any doubt that the senior levels of Catholic Church do not know about? Particularly since the China tribunal was not run by Falun Gong, but was these, like Arthur Waldron, these renowned China hands. Is there any doubt in your mind that they do not know that there is a spiritual practice, Falun Gong, that is under being tortured by live organ harvesting? Any doubt?
- [34:58]
Steve Bannon
The way. I'm sure that some of them know. But I also think that in these kinds of situations, people tell themselves convenient stories sometimes, sometimes to assuage their.
- [35:08]
Stephen K. Bannon
You know, you're a Polish descent.
- [35:11]
Steve Bannon
That's right.
- [35:12]
Stephen K. Bannon
So you know about what the Communist Party did to suppress all religions, but particularly Catholicism in Poland, right?
- [35:19]
Steve Bannon
100. 100. Well, with. In. I mean, in Poland, they were. It's actually, you know, a facet. Copeland is a fascinating situation because Catholicism is so deep in Poland. Right. And so the way they. They did that is, of course, they tried to shut down the church. They tried. They've killed a number of the very prominent priests, like Pop Yuska, very famously. But they really couldn't. They didn't really try to squelch the church because they knew, like, ultimately because they knew that they would have. Everybody would go in rebellion. That's part of the Polish psyche. They're very, you know, they don't like being told what to do. They always felt like they were under Russian occupation, right. With. With even this, even the Communists felt that at some level it was so.
- [36:00]
Stephen K. Bannon
Embedded into the culture.
- [36:01]
Steve Bannon
The culture was so embedded into the culture. So I think, I mean, compared to other places like Russia as a prominent example, that, I mean, there was total decimation. Right. Of the church that didn't have. Poland was an unusual case. However, I did learn about the insanity of how a communist system works. And for example, right. We had these in my family. It would be like the worst thing in the world. For me to talk about anything in my family outside of the family. And this drove me crazy as a kid, you know, my very overbearing, you know, overprotective mom. You can imagine, right? I had lots of things I want to talk about, but I knew deep in. Inside my core, I couldn't do that. Everybody else was, you know, talking smack about. About their parents. So I only learned later as I encountered the Falun Gong persecution and then really started trying to understand, you know, communism. Oh, this was because if I. The kid said the wrong thing.
- [36:53]
Stephen K. Bannon
Parents are locked up.
- [36:54]
Steve Bannon
Parents are being locked up. Exactly. That all happened, right? That was all part of the system. And everyone has been, basically everyone is used in a communist society as an agent in a way, like you're incentivized heavily to report on your fellow man. They found that. They found that 25% after, you know, Institute of National remembrance, the Lustration, as they call. They found a quarter of the population were empowerments in Poland. And these are the people that really don't like cooperating. Right. So you can imagine how this society was. We can have this conversation. We're live here. But you can't even have, you know, you don't know who to trust. It's just how it works.
- [37:26]
Stephen K. Bannon
This is what they try to do here under Biden, the lives of others. We would have people watch that movie, Easter.
- [37:31]
Steve Bannon
Incredible film. Incredible film. I always tell people, you've got to watch it.
- [37:35]
Stephen K. Bannon
It changes you. Liz, your. This makes it even. I mean, it's. This is why I wanted to have Yan on, because of his expertise in this area about the organ harvesting. And like he said, it gives a veneer that the Chinese Communist Party can be dealt with rationally when it comes to religion. And how can. And now we know. The fact that was kind of blurted out that Cardinal Prevost, when he was cardinal, went to China a number of times. That was never, ever explained to people before the conclave, Ma' am.
- [38:08]
Ben Harnwell
No. You know, Steve, I read the China Tribunal report. It is horrifying to read. And that further emboldened me to speak out against this horrible agreement with the Catholic Church and the ccp. You know, we found out after Pope Leo was elected that he had gone to China several times. Times. I've got a lot of questions. You know, first of all, he has talked about the seamless garment life ethic. Well, if ever there is a life ethic, it is this horrendous genocide against the Falun Gong, this forced organ donation program, which is a monstrosity And I want to see Pope Leo, who has been to China 12 times, and I want to know why he went, who escorted him. Did Ted McCarrick make any kind of arrangements? Did he ask any questions about the Chinese forced organ donor program? What did the Chinese government say to him about that program? What, you know, were any monies paid to him with respect to these several trips? I mean, these are the questions that need, need to be answered. And Steve, billions of people saw him walk out on the Loggia and look out onto St. Peter's Square. This is the issue that Pope Leo should immediately address. One, cancel the. This awful agreement with the ccp. Repeal it immediately. But also to use the power, the bully pulpit of his office to talk about what is going on with the Falun Gong, what is going on with the uyghurs. And for 12 years, there has not been a word from the Vatican about this outrageous violation of human rights and the fact that they're a partner with the ccp. It's unimaginable.
- [40:13]
Stephen K. Bannon
He tweeted today about Gaza. I mean, Gaza is horrible. Don't get me wrong.
- [40:17]
Liz Yore
What's happening in Gaza is horrible.
- [40:18]
Stephen K. Bannon
And both sides, both. But this is plain. And you've gotta deal with. You don't have a deal in Gaza. You have a deal here.
- [40:24]
Steve Bannon
Yan. And here's the thing, right? And this is for the Catholic faithful out there, and I think I'm ready to give the Pope the benefit of the doubt. This is an opportunity because clearly there wasn't an interest in the past at dealing with this. Well, this is a great opportunity to be on the side of righteousness and justice and so forth. Right. But what I wanted to say is what happens when you don't deal with crimes against humanity? This is why the Genocide Convention was signed, in my opinion. What happens is when you don't deal with crimes against humanity, it spreads further. And this is what happened by not dealing with the situation of this, with the Falun Gong, it then shifted at some level to the Uyghurs. I don't know at what level. I do know it's an incredibly vulnerable population that has millions in concentration camps. Now, we have reports that this has been happening and we know there's a market. And this is going to sound really gruesome to people for, quote, unquote, halal organization organs, right? Muslim prefer Muslim organs, because.
- [41:24]
Stephen K. Bannon
The marketplace.
- [41:25]
Steve Bannon
Says that, that, that. And so this is. This is an area I don't know as much about, but it's shifted. It's shifted. And, and this Is why. Why wouldn't it shift? You're saying, you're saying.
- [41:35]
Liz Yore
You're saying since.
- [41:36]
Stephen K. Bannon
Since Leo's come on now, he can sit there and go, hey, I had nothing to do with this. We gotta review this immediately. Bring Cardinal Zen back, which. Who they wouldn't meet with before. Explain it. Maybe you meet with Falun Gong, find out about this and say, hey, we can't go forward with this.
- [41:52]
Steve Bannon
From what I understand, Cardinal Zen wasn't part of the conclave, but he was there, and I expect he was speaking with many people about these types of issues, right? Basically, when they signed the deal, he.
- [42:01]
Stephen K. Bannon
Went back in parallel, and those guys kept him waiting for three days. Wasn't it three days, Liz, your. They kept him waiting around. He never actually got to meet with Francis at all about this. I think he met with Paralyn. Is that correct? Correct.
- [42:12]
Ben Harnwell
That's correct. That's correct. And as India, as a result, they went ahead and renewed it three times, knowing that while the ink was dry, this. This deal was violated by the ccp. Immediately. Immediately. They kept on arresting priests and bishops. Ten bishops are still missing, being detained. We don't even know if they're alive. And. And Prevost went over to China. Did he ask about all the missing bishops? Did he see all the churches that had been demolished? And most especially to the topic we're talking about today, I mean, you have to live on another planet not to know what's going on with the intelligence.
- [42:54]
Stephen K. Bannon
Network, with their intel, with their intelligence network, they know exactly what's going on. The harvest. Because the tribunal was not run by the Falun Gong. It's an independent with some of the biggest names of what I call the old China Hands.
- [43:04]
Liz Yore
Ben Harnworth.
- [43:05]
Stephen K. Bannon
Well, you and I have been on this now for years, since it first. I remember standing on top of that convent overlooking the Vatican. We were there for the pedophile conference, but they dropped this at the beginning of it. I said, this is actually 10 times bigger because you're giving up one of the most vibrant, robust. It's like the underground church in Poland. You're giving up one of the most robust churches ever to turn over to the Chinese Communist Party. Your thoughts, sir?
- [43:28]
Frank Gaffney
Good evening, Steve. Look back in February 2017, when the Vatican hosted a summit on the forced organ harvesting. I was actually working there in the Pontifical Academy for Social Sciences. I was a consigliere. And I remember at that time, the invitation, I think it was to Dr. Huang Jiefu, former deputy Chinese health minister. And he was invited to participate. And I remember Steve on the inside on that occasion, the lobbying that a number of very strong, committed Catholics were doing, trying to get that invitation cancelled because they said it was scandalous and some very high level representations were made. And basically without breaking any confidences or anything, the Pope wanted this invitation to go ahead. And I think it's what you and Jan were saying before about sort of willful ignorance, willful turning of blind eyes. And I was trying, as an intermediate, I was trying to shuttle this information across and it was difficult to pin down anything absolutely specific. And it's absolutely true what Liz has said, that in 12 years, Pope Francis has never issued a single condemnation of this Chinese practice. How about this then for a suggestion, and I'm not aware that President Trump has condemned it either. How about an initiative, a White House led initiative, inviting Pope Leo along with President Trump to issue a joint condemnation of forced organ harvesting in China. They will have an idea of what the Vaticans, you know, whether there is any, any reasonable hope of a change in policy with regards to China under this new Pope. And I think a lot of people would be interested to see how Poplio would respond to that invitation, Jan. And.
- [45:35]
Steve Bannon
Just, just to let you know, there's been kind of unprecedented action in Congress. And I know probably a lot of viewers of your show, Steve, are kind of unhappy with, with Congress action on this issue. There's been unprecedented action in Congress. Okay. Couple of weeks ago. So two bills are passed. Okay. One unanimously, one with one dissenting vote. Okay. The first one is the Falun Gong Protection act and they're both targeting organ harvesting. The second one is the Stop Forced Organ Harvesting act, which is a little broader. Both of them sanction people that are involved in this. There's a reporting element on the Falun Gong Protection act, most importantly, and this is why I expect now this is going to the Senate. Ted Cruz is picking up the Falun Gong Protection act in the Senate, which is great. He's a fighter. I'm looking forward to seeing. But I expect Chinese Communist Party to pull out all the stops here because they do not want basically stamped into US Law. The fact that they are doing this, this would be the first time there's been resolutions that US Congress has passed. But this would have actual legal teeth. And, and there's another act in waiting. There's five states that are basically, remember what I talked about Jakob Levy earlier. There's this. They're preventing. Jacob Levy got this law passed in Israel that they will not pay for China organ transplants there's five states now, Arizona just signed it same week that by the way that those two pieces of legislation passed the House. So, so there's stuff happening. So this is, you know that's an amazing idea you have of this, you know, joint declaration from the president that will be very powerful and the climate for it exists legislatively too well and.
- [47:09]
Stephen K. Bannon
It is as Catholics it has been humiliating to us since this deal was done and in secret and it'd be renewed. And if you see the power in the, the vibrancy of the underground Catholic church in Hong Kong or didn't have to be in Hong Kong now it has to be with Cardinal Zen. Cardinal Zen is a living saint to me. He should be pope. We're going to have to bounce. Where do people go because we're now going to make this a thing.
- [47:34]
Steve Bannon
Right?
- [47:34]
Stephen K. Bannon
Where do people go to get more information first? The more in posse more information they get, the better. Where they go see these bills. Where they go see and I want them to see all the videos. Folks, you must watch this. You can't turn your eyes away from it. It's absolutely brutal. Where they go for all the information.
- [47:49]
Steve Bannon
Information. Well for starters, for the evidence. Chinatribunal.com the most comprehensive dump of evidence. Come to theepoctimes.com or epochtv.com you can look up my channel. I cover this issue somewhat regularly. I've had. I have a recent piece on American thought leaders. My show about this survivor of forced organ harvesting against all odds exists. You know, it's kind of an unbelievable. And David made his testimony about how he, you know, how he understands things to stand today and and, and many others.
- [48:24]
Stephen K. Bannon
What's your social media? Where do people go?
- [48:25]
Steve Bannon
Oh, at Janya Kellogg. I'll spell it for you at J A N J E K I E L E K and in a moment I'll put something up about exactly this issue so you can find it on X. On X is the best place.
- [48:37]
Stephen K. Bannon
So X. And you're also going to go to Poland for cpac.
- [48:41]
Steve Bannon
That's right. That's right. I'm going to probably speak in Polish for the first time.
- [48:46]
Stephen K. Bannon
We're going to stre Hungary and Poland. I'm not able to make it this time but we're going to stream all of it. Amazing. Hang on, Liz. Ben, obviously this is our number one priority with this new Pope. This is a disgrace and it's also helped destroy the church over there. Liz, where do people go to get all your information?
- [49:06]
Ben Harnwell
My website is yourchildren.com. i'm going to post the China Tribunal report. Everybody in the war room's got to read it. I'm also going to post questions I have for the new Pope with respect to China. Encourage your bishops to force answers to that. And I'm everywhere on social media under Elizabeth Yore.
- [49:28]
Stephen K. Bannon
You're amazing. They're trying to. We're going to. This is a thing. When Liz Yore's at the tip of the spear, things are going to happen. Ben, quickly. Give me a minute. How big a deal is this? How big a deal? Can we make this inside the Vatican, sir?
- [49:43]
Frank Gaffney
I think all the elements are there. Just remember this one thing, Steve. The reason Bergoglio insisted on having this, this overseer of forced Chinese organ harvesting present at the Vatican is because he sublimated everything to the fact that he wanted to be the first Pope to visit China. And let that folk, folks, let that, let the horror of that sink in at a later moment. And there's every moment, every, every reason to believe that we can see something different. Follow me, Steve. I'm on Guetta at Harnwell and I'll absolutely, absolutely be be tracking this and updating the war in posse with the news as we have it for the.
- [50:24]
Stephen K. Bannon
Crushing of Falun Gong, the underground evangelicals in. In 30 seconds. How horrible would it be if the Pope actually went to China?
- [50:34]
Steve Bannon
It's. It's basically the ultimate putting power powder on the face of the ccp because you have a regime whose stated purpose is to eradicate religion and the Pope is sort of validating it. I don't think that's a good way to do it. I understand the mentality. I understand the impulse to try to work in good faith and find some kind of better solution for the faithful of the very.
- [50:55]
Stephen K. Bannon
There's no common ground here.
- [50:56]
Steve Bannon
I wish. I wish there was, but we have decades of evidence showing that they don't have the common ground.
- [51:02]
Stephen K. Bannon
You're a hero. And celebrate epic times.
- [51:05]
Steve Bannon
Thank you, Steve.
- [51:05]
Stephen K. Bannon
One of the best papers in the country.
- [51:07]
Steve Bannon
Appreciate it.
- [51:08]
Stephen K. Bannon
And you've got a readership. I think you're only back at the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal.
- [51:12]
Steve Bannon
Maybe it's in Washington Post. We don't know. We don't know.
- [51:16]
Stephen K. Bannon
They always live at the numbers. We're gonna be back live at 10:00am Eastern Daylight Time tomorrow morning. Folks. It's on fire in the imperial capital. We're going to cover it wall to wall. Be up on getter all night. See you tomorrow morning at 10.
- [51:40]
Liz Yore
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