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WarRoom Battleground EP 787: Warnings About Islam’s “Demographic Jihad” Against The Judeo-Christian West
WarRoom Battleground EP 787: Warnings About Islam’s “Demographic Jihad” Against The Judeo-Christian West...
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- [00:03]
Steve Bannon
This is the primal scream of a dying regime. Pray for our enemies because we're going medieval on these people. Reasons I got a free shot. All these networks lying about the people. The people have had a belly full of it. I know you don't like hearing that. I know you try to do everything in the world to stop that, but you're not going to stop it. It's going to happen.
- [00:24]
Ben Harnwell
And where do people like that go to share the big lie? MAGA MEDIA I wish in my soul, I wish that any of these people had a conscience.
- [00:35]
Steve Bannon
Ask yourself, what is my task and what is my purpose? If that answer is to save my country, this country will be saved.
- [00:45]
Stephen K. Bannon
WAR ROOM here's your host, Stephen k. Ban.
- [00:55]
Ben Harnwell
Wednesday, 11th of June, Anno Domini 2025. Ben Harnwell here at the helm on Steve Bannon's War Room. Welcome, folks. Thanks for tuning in. We're going to carry on something that we launched last week and there are two guests who were here last week, Frank Walker and Jenny Holland. They're sitting by waiting to come in later as we chew over the week's most important developments in the whole arena of Christianity and the fight for the Christian faith in the public square. But my first guest today, Raymond Ibrahim of Raymond, thanks for coming on the show. I first saw your writings in your analysis some 15 or so years ago. I've been following you since then. You had some great contributions to make on Jihad Watch, which is a great website run by Robert Spencer. But in the intervening years, I know you've produced a number of books. We're going to talk about your third one in your trilogy right now. But you've also, you put out stuff with the Gatestone Institute, which I also subscribe to, by the way. You've been involved with the Middle East Forum and I think you've been a visiting fellow at the Hoover Institute. So you've got a whole sack load of experience under your belt. Tell us a bit, though, about your new book, which is the Two Swords of Christ. I know this is the third one in your series, and the first two books have had huge resonance in our sector. In our segment here, tell us before you tell us about what the book's about, tell us what inspired you to write it, because I think in all three of these books there are messages to our contemporary time.
- [02:35]
Raymond Ibrahim
Yeah. Good to be with you, Ben. Excuse me. Well, it's hard to talk about that book without talking about its predecessors, the other two, and because they all have a sort of synergistic, you know, effect on one another. They complement one another. So just to briefly summarize, the first book, Sword and Scimitar subtitle, 14 Centuries of War between Islam and the west, really traces the history of conflict between Islam and the west, which, of course is its modern term historically was Christendom. And I start really from the beginning with the first couple of years after Muhammad's lifetime with the first battle in 636. And we fast forward all the way until America's first war as a nation, the Barbary wars with Muslims. And I highlight the decisive battles and how they really had a tremendous impact on the shaping of the world so that very few people, you know, no, there's a European, an older European historian, his name is Franco Cardini, and he said very memorably that Islam was a violent midwife to Europe because so much of what Europe really became was a byproduct of continuous aggression from surrounding Islam. And we. And the book also shows Sword and Scimitar that, you know, a lot of the countries or nations or regions that we think or a lot of people think today are, have always been Muslim. The Muslim world, especially the Arab world, all of that was actually the. Was not just Christian. It was actually the greater part of Christendom. And so Islam, I. I show in that book in the first few chapters how Islam just completely, in one century conquered all that region, from Egypt and Greater Syria, the Middle east, all the way to Morocco and then even got into Spain. So a lot of people are not aware of that. So much of what was once Christendom, about 66 or 70%, if you look at a map, was actually permanently swallow it up by Islam and later by the Turks. Asia Minor, what we call Turkey today, was one of the oldest, you know, Christian regions. Epistles are in their Book of Revelation, talks about its cities. So anyway, that's. That's Sword and Scimitar, Defenders of the west was sort of similar, but it was more of biographies. I chose eight biographies of eight men who I identify as defenders of Christendom vis a vis Islamic. And it also moves chronologically. And I know, I know a lot of people find that very inspiring. And that's partially why I also wanted to write it. It's sort of a. It's the same. It's the same theme. But now I'm really, like, zooming in on the lives of specific men, kings and warriors and emperors who, you know, took the cause. And the newest book now, the Two Swords of Christ, is. I originally conceived it as a book about the military orders and. But eventually it just became about the two primary ones really, who spearheaded the defense of Christendom, which would be the Knights of the Temple and the Knights of the Hospital, or the Templars and Hospitallers, respectively. And that, I think, you know, the relevance of that book. Well, what it is is just, it's a history, again, it's a history of those, how they came into being, how the military orders came into being, the, the rationale behind them. And I think that's very important. And in fact, that's the title of the book. Two Swords of Christ is a reference to the passage in Luke where Christ says, you know, sell your garment and buy a sword. And his disciples say, look Lord, here are two swords. And he says, that is enough. Now, even though that verse has been allegorized into absolute meaninglessness today, it actually meant something to pre modern and especially medieval Christians. And what it meant is you had, there's two sorts of evil and you have two kinds of swords to fight against them. You have a secular sword against false physical evil and you have a spiritual sword against spiritual evil. So modern day Christians only believe in the latter one, apparently, and they've completely lost focus on the, on the former, which is a physical sword. So we get into the theology of how they came to be, how they came to rise to power. And you find it amazing again today in our modern Christian Western climate, to be a Christian is, you know, to be passive and to be tolerant and, you know, to be a doormat in many ways. But these guys who were essentially monks and really lived very pious lives were also very violent men. And so, you know, reconciling the twain seems to be odd. And I think it's very fascinating when you understand the sort of theological understanding that they had. You know, another thing that medieval Christians did that modern day, you know, we. Go ahead.
- [06:59]
Ben Harnwell
So sorry, Raymond, I'm going to go into this because we have a few minutes to break this down in a, in a few more, in a bit more detail as we go on in the show. But first of all, I want to ask you, is it your thesis then that from when Muhammad first appeared in the, in, in the sixth century. Right. In the late, the late late fifth century, seventh century, sixth century, is it, is it your thesis that there has basically been a physical battle and you can, you can also argue a spiritual battle vis a vis Christianity and Islam all throughout this period and that battle is still taking place in the present day, or is it your thesis that talking about the Knights Templar and The Knights Hospital. These things are really, these, these are historically battles that belonged in the past.
- [07:57]
Raymond Ibrahim
No, it's the former. It's a continuous war. So historically again, Sword and Scimitar is the book that does this. It historically shows you that the war was non stop. Of course, I mean we're talking 14 centuries. There's going to be times of peace because of whatever reason and there's truces, etc. Etc. But the general hostility was constant. An overall, remember by, you know, Islam, Muhammad is 7th century, dies at 632 and in the 16th century, in the 1500s, you have Muslims going to Iceland and Denmark to raid and England to raid slaves under the same exact logic that the Quran tells us. It's you're an infidel, a kafir, et cetera. However, having said that, what I would contend is that what's happening is the same hostility has gone on except it's taken different manifestations and different guises and it's continuous. The continuum from the Muslim side is unwavering. The problem is the discontinuity of the west, in other words. And this is why it's good and timely to read about men like this these nights and how they perceived this war which was both physical and spiritual in their mind, hence the two swords. But now, you know, it's taking forms. Islam is so weak and you know, the forebears of Europe and Western, you know, the Western Christians would be turning in their graves to see that finally, you know, the west is supreme, more powerful technologically, economically, you know, militarily. And it's still suffering worse than when you keep in mind during these centuries of the long war between Islam and the West, Europe was the underdog, that was the weak one, that was the one who was being battered and was like really until you know, maybe 17th century and so forth or 16th century. So now though, you got the same hostility. So let's say Europe brings in all these, you know, the demographic change and they're bringing millions of migrants from the Muslim world and lo and behold they're doing the same sorts of things that they did when they used to invade Europe with the sword, but now they're being welcomed in. So you know, it's the same kind of thing that's going on. Churches all throughout Europe and in Western countries are constantly being attacked and desecrated crosses are being broken. And so to me it's a pattern of unwavering hostility that goes all the way back to the seventh century. But because the west has kind of distanced Itself from its own heritage and, you know, broken away from Christendom. And that idea, it doesn't see it, it doesn't understand it. It's working under this guise of multiculturalism. And you know, any problem that goes on, it has to do with, you know, economics or grievances. And so they don't understand the sort of existential hostility that has been just unwavering. And well, Doc, as I document in my books, it's not, hasn't stopped and it's still going on.
- [10:36]
Ben Harnwell
What about this thesis that you'll find pretty much in most of the media and modern academia that here were these peaceable Muslims just getting on with their life and you have the brutality of Christians and the Crusades going in and for no reason whatsoever attacking because the Christians are the bad guys, the Muslims are the good guys. That's basically the modern perception, the narrative that you will pick up here in the West. Well, what's your reading on that? And is your book in some ways a corrective to that, that alternative history, that fake history?
- [11:15]
Raymond Ibrahim
Exactly. In regards to the latter point. Exactly. The reason I wrote these books, this trilogy, essentially is as a corrective to that narrative. And you're also right, that is the predominant narrative. It's what I call fake history. And as I often say, fake history is much more dangerous than fake news because it creates overarching narratives and paradigms that people sift current events through. So if you believe what you just said, not you, but people in general, and they do that, you know, medieval Christians and crusaders were the aggressors, Muslims were peaceful, tolerant victims. If you believe that, of course, then you fast forward and you look at events today. And I mean, you know, a few years ago, I think like thousands of Germans did a march to the Holy Land wearing shirts with Arabic. It said, I'm sorry for the Crusades. Okay? So it puts you in this position where you feel like you have to make concessions because you're the bad guy, let's make up for what our ancestors did. Let's not, let's now like turn a new leaf and let's give Muslims the benefit of the doubt, et cetera, et cetera. But if you actually, you know, and it's so diabolical the way that this fake history, because I've really read a lot of books written by secondary historians who are supposed to be well renowned and the things they say, it's just, you know, I'll give you one example of, you know, well known professor John Esposito from Georgetown University. Which is where I attended for a while. And you know, he's the editor in chief of Oxford Books on Islam and he's written so many books published by the Oxford University Press. And he literally says in one, in one of his books, I think it's called Islam the Straight Path. He says five centuries of peaceful coexistence between Muslims and Christians elapsed before an imperial papal power play led to a series of so called holy wars that have left an enduring legacy of mistrust. In other words, as Muslims and Christians just got along hunky dory for five centuries until the First Crusade in 1095 when these evil, imperialistic, you know, people, power play popes and Catholics decided to go and attack innocent Muslims. The reality, as I sort of alluded earlier, is the complete opposite. In those five centuries, Islam destroyed and wreaked havoc all throughout Christendom. In one year alone, according to a Muslim historian, in the year 1009, the, the, the Caliph, the Fatibid Khalif in Egypt, Hakim Bamr Allah, according to Muslim historian al Maqrizi, destroyed 30,000 churches in Greater Syria and Egypt, including the Holy Sepulcher, which he raised to the ground. So, and this is, this is during the five centuries of peaceful coexistence. So even leading up to the First Crusade, the mass havoc and the massacres that the Turks were causing in Asia Minor and attacks and rapes on nuns who were going on pilgrimage, that's exactly what the Christians spoke about at Clermont, at the Council of Clermont with Pope Urban ii. It was that it was to redress and defend Christendom from what was happening. But that has been so expunged today. And, you know, it starts off like I just told you with that quote and the same page that John Esposito where he says five centuries of peace, you know, he also says, he mockingly dismisses the fact that when the Crusaders say said Deus vult, God wills it, he writes, yeah, God may have willed it, but there's no evidence that the Christians in the Holy Land willed it all. Contraire, and as I showed in a recent article and video, there's copious evidence of Middle Eastern Christians, Syriac, Armenian, who, when the Crusaders came, they just threw themselves and kissed their feet because they helped, you know, alleviate what was happening to them, which was mass persecution by Muslims. So, yeah, this is a very potent fake history that's meant to demonize Christians and demonize especially medieval Christianity. I think there is a force out there that is very scared that Western Christian men might Start sort of gravitating and find appealing medieval Christian men, specifically the two knight groups that I spoke about in the Two Swords of Christ, the Knights of the Temple and Hospital.
- [15:08]
Ben Harnwell
Tell me something, Raymond, what do you think about the Catholic Church in the decades following the Second Vatican Council? Has it had a role to play in trying to present the truth behind the defense of Christians in the Middle east under Islamic conquest? Or has it, has it, do you think rather somewhat sold the past behind a deceptively dialogue based interaction with Islam? Could it have done more? And are you looking towards the new Pope, Leo the 14th, to change the position somewhat from the position of Pope Francis and his numerous declarations? Like I think it was Abu Dhabi, his declaration with regards to Islam. So there's two questions there. Do you think the Catholic Church has done enough in presenting to Catholics the truth about the Islamic conquest of Christendom in the previous centuries? And are you looking and hoping for a change under the new Pope?
- [16:24]
Raymond Ibrahim
Yeah, as far as the first question, no, it has not done enough, especially under Pope Francis. You know, he, he was much more, it seems interested in just dialogue and, and trying to show, you know, some fraternal, peaceful overtures towards the Islamic world. And he did a lot of these meetings with the, with the Grand Imam of Egypt, Sheikh Ahmed Al Tayyib. And it's just, you know, as, as a person like me who watches and reads in Arabic and I, I get to watch the sheikh. So I would watch Pope Francis and the sheikh talking and hugging each other and kissing each other and talking about peace and love and how Muslims and Christians are, you know, brother religions and should help each other. And then I would watch the sheikh speaking in Arabic saying the exact opposite and not sounding not unlike isis. You know, when it comes to the Christian is the cafeter, the infidel. We can't have churches and all the, all that sort of thing. But of course he doesn't, he doesn't speak it the way ISIS does. He tries to be a little more diplomatic, but it's the same mentality and Al Azhar, which is, you know, almost like the equivalent of the Vatican people will say of the Islamic world, is notorious for publishing books that what we would call radical Islam. And they have no choice because those are the books of Islam, the Hadith and the, you know, the Sierra, the biography of Muhammad and all the special studies. So it's a one sided thing. And you know, and a lot of the Muslims and when Christians from the Middle east watch this, they just, they can't Believe it because he's being so hoodwinked, Pope Francis. Unless, of course, he knew that. And it doesn't matter because he just wants to put a show of, hey, we're signing all these.
- [17:58]
Ben Harnwell
Excuse me, let me just stop you there. What's your reading of the situation? Because no one follows these things more attentively than you. Do you think he was acting, do you think BER was acting in good faith, or do you think he was actually acting in bad faith with his presentation to Catholics that Islam is a peaceful religion?
- [18:20]
Raymond Ibrahim
You know, the only way to answer that question is, you know, how. What's his intelligence level? You know, does he, did he really believe what he was saying? Or, you know, is he that naive? Or does. Or was this wishful thinking? Or is this just, like I said, kind of a show? I think it's a little bit of all, you know, it's a combination he's hoping, but he also knows, probably not, especially when people like me would expose what, you know, his counterpart would say and do soon thereafter after these meetings. But as far as, you know, and he would, for example, write encyclicals about the environment. But it's like you could have written an encyclical about the fact that something like. I think the latest estimate published by the human rights group Open Doors on their world watch list is, I don't know, like 400 million Christians around the world are being persecuted. And some of them really graphically in, in Nigeria, you have two Christians being killed every hour, okay, for their faith. So you would think as the pope, and here's the irony, when you go back and you study the history and as I show in these books, the men who spearheaded the Crusades were the popes. These were the guys who were most, you know, stalwart resisters against Islamic violence and the spread of Islam. And so it's funny now when you fast forward to a Pope Francis and they come off, you know, so wishy washy. As far as the new Pope, you know, I think one can have some hope, but in the end, I just feel a lot of these, these institutions are just being such big, vast institutions. They can't help but have to be diplomatic. So there's probably only so much he will say or do, though I think he understands the situation better. He's already talked about, you know, I don't remember the exact details, but he's. You've already referenced that Christians are being persecuted. So that's a good sign. And we just need, it would be nice for Popes to go back to how they used to be in a way, when they were the chief defenders of the faith.
- [20:12]
Ben Harnwell
It would indeed be nice to go back to the way things used to be when Popes were Catholic. Look, we've got a break coming up in five minutes. There is a story that I wanted to quickly hit with you, but I think we'll hold it over now until after the break. One thing I did want to ask you, however listening to you talk, is that it's conscious to me that that guys, men, males if you will, are having a moment. You've got this whole thing in social media about the manosphere. And as I was sort of listening to you talking about this muscular form of Christianity that we saw in the past, and I know you elsewhere you've described Templars and hospitallers, nodders, soldiers and nodders, cloistered monks, but both together at the same time. Given that chaps have really had a back seat in the Catholic Church following the, the Second Vatican Council and there is a moment taking place now within this wide up manus, manus manosphere concept. Just tell me something about your reading of this situation. Is there anything that is going that in the books, these three books, but specifically the Two Swords of Christ that speaks to this, this contemporary dynamic, specifically about men leading up and taking leadership roles within the church once again?
- [21:42]
Raymond Ibrahim
Yeah, I think that's one of the key points that comes out in this history. The Two Swords of Christ about the knights is again, it's this fusion of piety and militancy which is so alien, you know, to your modern day Christian who has just been bred into becoming a doormat. You know, they've taken the whole idea, you know, this turn the other cheek has been so, I think, weaponized by people who actually hate Christianity. And at the same time I often wonder to myself, you know, are people too, are people men especially, are they overly fond of boasting that they're turning the other cheek because Jesus commanded them to? Or is the first premise that they're really cowards and they're fight they found a pious pretext to hide behind, which is, you know, I don't want to be confrontational, I don't want to be judgmental, I don't want to do anything. And oh yeah, because Jesus told me to, I'm starting to think that's really what's going on and that they've been bred to become so passive, so cowardly. A lot of men in the west and obviously I'm generalizing and a lot of Men are not like that in the west, obviously. But I think it's been weaponized. This passive side of. If you go back in pre modern time, you know, even though it seems so taken for granted today that Christianity is passive and peaceful and does nothing, no one thought that way, you know, so this is a new idea that was really been. It's a classic heresy, right? A heresies. You take one aspect of religion and you, you know, blow it out of proportion. You ignore all the rest. Where's the aspect of, you know, overturning tables and a whip of cords and driving people out due to righteous indignation? You know, where do you get that it's missing? And it wasn't missing for pre modern men, for medieval men, it was very much. There was no conflict whatsoever between loving your neighbor and fighting and defending them and killing. You know, when you think about it, both the knights of the Temple and the Knights of the hospital, they began in their origin of just wanting to help their fellow man. They were working on the verse, you know, loving your fellow man as you love yourself and loving God. That's what led to the Crusades. But so the Templars, because when Christians would go on pilgrimages after the first Crusade and now Jerusalem's under crusader control, they were still being killed and attacked by Muslims. So in their, in their origin, the Templars were just basically a vanguard to protect pilgrims. And then the Hospitallers is even more telling because these were actually the men who were like a care worker. You know, they would. People who would come and it was a hospice and they would care for them and they would wash them and feed them and clothe them and you know, and these are the guys who became militant and violent because to them in the end it was, why, why am I going to sit in the hospital and wait until you get attacked by Muslims and then try to resuscitate you? Why don't I actually go and prevent it? Preemptive strike by protecting you? So it's amazing that but for us today, and this is why you don't hear about these knights. And the Templars have been so demonized and they've been turned into something that doesn't even exist, taught pure mythology. And I think it's because if you really study them, they are appealing to Christian masculinity. And that's why there's a concerted effort to keep them suppressed or to demonize them or to turn them into all the nonsense that they've been turned into.
- [24:49]
Ben Harnwell
Which. Which ironically isn't a problem that exists within the Islamic world. Far from it. Ironically, it's interesting that what you mentioned, and I hadn't considered that before, that basically the beta male mentality can hide behind the precepts of our Lord and present themselves as, as sort of a prudential form of interior spirituality, when in fact it's just playing up in your face. Cowardice, right?
- [25:24]
Raymond Ibrahim
Yeah, it's. They're making a virtue out of a vice, okay? It's, it's cowardice and they hide behind because think about it, you know, non confrontationalism, non judgmentalism, non, you know, being tolerant of everything. Well, that's the easy route. That's the easy thing to do because you never get in anyone's face, you never resist, you know, So I think a lot of people have adopted that. And that's, that comes first. That's the first premise. And then the, the, you know, the second premise is what Jesus said. So it's being, it's. Instead of what it should be, is that you want to do right. And you know, if someone strikes you, you want to actually kill them, but you don't, you control yourself. That's how it should be. All right? And that's what Jesus, I believe, was. And keep in mind, you know, everyone know this turn the other cheek business, the one verse Jesus actually gets slapped in the Gospels and he didn't turn his other cheek, he actually challenged the man. So clearly this is a very symbolic thing to say. And he should never in any way, shape or form be actually practiced. And no one did because they had just war.
- [26:25]
Ben Harnwell
Okay, Raymond Ibrahim, hold on to that. We're going to come back after the break. I'm going to come back with Frank Walker actually in just a couple of minutes because I want his take on what you were just saying about this, this aspect of cowardice masquerading itself as piety. Because I think we find that before anything else within our Catholic hierarchy. Folks, stand by. We're back with a story that I think follows directly on from that happenings in France and Chartres. Back in two minutes. America's heart.
- [27:01]
Steve Bannon
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- [30:49]
Raymond Ibrahim
War room.
- [30:50]
Stephen K. Bannon
Here's your host, Stephen K. Bannon.
- [30:58]
Ben Harnwell
Welcome back. So last week we had Frank Walker on the show who's the founder and editor of Canon 212. The best way of describing that is basically the Catholic drudge. And it's a website that I go to several times a day throughout the day because there's no other source out there in the world on the Internet, keeping people briefed in real time about what's going on specifically within the Catholic ambit. Frank, let's come to you because I want to pick up on what Raymond was saying in the first half here. And I think there's a first class example of that picking up on the, on a couple of these stories that the most important stories that have taken place within Christianity over the last week. And by the way, folks, we've got something on the Southern Baptist Convention for next Wednesday for all of you evangelicals, some great news by the way, coming out of the evangelical world. But Frank, tell us a bit about Chartres and the pilgrimage there. There's a bit of good news there, but something for Catholics to be extremely wary about.
- [31:58]
Stephen K. Bannon
Well, the pilgrimage of Sartre is, is something that makes the traditionalist Catholics very happy and it's been growing every year. I think it's like 4,000 more people than it was last year, about 20,000 people in total. These are all traditionalist Catholics that like the Latin Mass, which means that they're faith also faithful to everything that the church teaches. And it's a 60 mile walk and it's just getting more popular every year. A lot of young people, I think the average age is 20 years old. They're there. And the faithful Catholic, I, I don't really like the world traditionalist too much because that's sort of a slur. It's really just faithful Catholic and they like the, the ancient Catholic Mass. They have a lot of children, they have young families, but they are really, really despised by the, the main Catholic Church and even, and even the wider secular world. Attacks them too. So they had this pilgrimage, but this year for the first time, they put some restrictions on it. They put them under review, a certain review by the Bishop of Charts. And he's, he's done something that is really insidious. He said that they have to be able to say the real, the, the, the Novus Ordo Mass, the new Mass, which is really contrary to their whole identity and their, actually their whole faith and the orders, the FSSP and the ICK that are involved in this. And then the sspx, they don't want to say that new Mass. And for them to have to permit that kind of thing really undermines it. It really doesn't have anything to do with this, this pilgrimage for them to do this. And they, the, the bishops, they're all glomming onto it, saying how it's so great and everything. The fact that they have to do this is targeting them directly all the time, not just in the pilgrimage, just their very best thing, using it to undermine them every day.
- [34:02]
Ben Harnwell
Now you think a pilgrimage, and I think the average age of something like 19 or 20,000 people here participate in this, the average age of which is 20. You would think that a country like France, with all the structural problems that they have within the Church, within the Catholic Church, within secularism, would have embraced this kind of movement. But I saw your piece that you put out on Stumbling Block, which is I think your personal website earlier and you mentioned, if I'm not mixing these things with my head, you mentioned that the bishop, the swish up concerned in this diocese of Chartres was trying to invoke the holy presence of the holy name of, of Leo to suggest that he was accompanying them in prayer. And that was based, that had not. Had no foundation. In fact, just, just say a bit about, about what he said and why he said it this bishop. Well, and what your conclusion is about.
- [35:05]
Stephen K. Bannon
That he said simply was that Leo has prayed, said that he prays for pilgrimages. I don't know when, I don't know what the context was, but the whole Catholic trad media, the faithful Catholic media said no, he's praying for the pilgrims. At Charts, there's such a push to try to make Leo look like something different. They're still hoping that he's going to remove the restrictions on the ancient massive Francis added in there. And so it's just amazing to see that they would use that, that they'll do any kind of stretch. These are our own people talking to each other, the own faithful Catholic media telling each Other, these stories that are really not true at all. And of course this, this bishop and they like to glom onto it like parasites to the growth of the Church. I think that the tribe movement is responsible for a lot of what they're seeing, is this young new growth in the Catholic Church we're seeing in the news in the last couple weeks.
- [36:03]
Ben Harnwell
Now, just to fill in a few details here, because Frank, you were talking about the traditional Latin Mass. This, by the way, would be the Mass that the Knights, the Templars and the Hospitallers would have known and prayed and attended a thousand 1500 or so years ago. Because it goes back to the canon of that Mass goes back, I think, to the third century. So you can have a view on the old Mass in Latin. You can have a view on the vernacular. The fact would seem to be that, that when the church prayed and said the old Latin Mass is expanded and evangelized and when it switched to the, the vernacular, it started imploding and retreating. But just let that pass for one moment because, look, because the, the undercurrent of, of I am of, of what is taking place here in France right across the world and is that there is a spiritual battle going on. Right. That's the fundamental point is a spiritual battle. And as Raymond Ibrahim in the first half of the show saying, it's a literal battle too. So we Catholics need to get our act together. Hold on. I'm going to come back to just in a few moments because there are further developments in the growth of Christianity or the growth of what is being called Christianity, whether it is, whether it isn't. That's something for a future show. Jenny Holland, you're, I think the, the, the war Rooms atheist of choice to come to. You pray the Rosary every day, which of course so few Catholics pray the, the rosary every day. You pray the rosary every day. You've had a huge explosive traction whenever you come on the show. Tell us about this, this story about Catholicism being cool again, will you? Because I think a couple of takeaways for this, for this evening's topic of conversation.
- [38:06]
Jenny Holland
Yeah. The Free Press had an interesting article, I think it was last week, about Gen Z turning toward Catholicism in particular. And as much as I'd like to say I'm in my 20s, I am no longer, but I am also doing it. So I understand the impulse. I think the things that are driving young people to the church are the same things that I'm seeing and that are horrifying to me. But if you're a 20 year old or a 21 year old or a 22 year old. Those effects are massively, much bigger because I at least remember the days before the Internet went suspicious. Society still had a modicum of common sense and a something of a moral foundation. Kids who are in their twenties now don't remember that world. That world is gone. So they need something to fulfill the very basic human desire for structure and order, which does no longer exist. It's not taught in schools, it's not common. It's not expected to be enforced within families even, although many families still do, obviously. But the, the weight of the cult is toward hollow promiscuity, immediate self gratification, nihilism. And you know, you don't have to be a theologian to feel that that is a dead end. People have an innate need to reach for something higher and that is what we're seeing with young people.
- [39:41]
Ben Harnwell
Jenny, isn't there something in this article here, and I quote, that there's a great need to recover the sense of mystery at Catholic Mass? And I will try if I have time, I will tie all of these segments in together because I think there's a, there's a straight line through all of these things. You know, nature abhors a vacuum, folks. Right. If Christianity is leaving the public space, then expect something else to come in and fill that. And that's what Islam is doing. And if we're going to be serious about opposing that, we need to be sort of serious about what it is that we're presenting to people. People. But there's this aspect here in this article that young people, young guys, coming back to this issue, young guys are looking for something and it's the very thing, right? We just heard Frank Walker talking about this, this 19,000 strong pilgrimage and shot. The very thing that kids are looking out for and thirsting for are the very things that the bishops are trying to take away from them. But just, could you just give me your take on that point, please?
- [40:45]
Jenny Holland
Well, just from literally a layman's perspective, the transcendence and the smells and the bells, which is what the article referenced, is the edge that Catholicism has over other forms of at least many forms of Protestantism. And that has been the case for a long time. And I think I mentioned last week my great aunt in her 20s, you know, in the early 20th century, converted from being a Protestant to being a Catholic for that exact reason. She founded a huge relief, the, the, the beauty of the, of the Mass from her everyday life where she worked in a factory and whatnot. And I would, you know, woe betide church hierarchy who thinks that they can abandon these old ways because that is the only strength that they have left at this point. The traditional Mass is, as this article points out and other, other people have spoken to, is growing in popularity and is attracting people who, who grew up in a very secular world because they long for the beauty of it, whereas the, the newer forms, the late, the later 20th century forms have none of that. I've seen that in my own life. I, I've been to a Latin Mass near me several times and I've been to a Novus Ordo Mass, I suppose, several times. And the Latin Mass is always more, has more people attending. The, the entire point of this is that people want an escape from modernity. So if the Catholic Church thinks it's going to win over new people by reinforcing modernity and especially modern morality, which is a bit of a horror show actually, they are absolutely mistaken. And you have to question, do they really even believe that it would be, it would be hard for me to believe that they believe that because it's so obviously untrue.
- [42:46]
Ben Harnwell
Jenny, thanks for that. Thanks very much for that, Raymond. Look, in the closing minutes of this show, I know there's this article here from the Washington Post which I think dovetails into the points that you are making at the beginning that the wider battle, the arena between Christendom and Islam. We heard from Frank Walker about the, the procession, the pilgrimage in Chartres, which was actually, which was the bishops there trying to stamp down on the very thing that young people are thirsting for. You heard what Jenny Holland was just saying. Who's not a, she's not a, she's not a Catholic, not a believer. But she's saying the same thing again and again of people searching for the sacred, for the transcendent. How do you tie this in all these themes that we've been discussing about on the show? Tell me about this article in the Washington Post, specifically about the numbers and how things are going. And obviously with the narrative of what you're talking about, of this 1500, 1600 year battle vis a vis Christianity and Islam, what are the numbers like? What are the dynamics taking place in the, in the west today? In the world today?
- [44:04]
Raymond Ibrahim
Yeah. So as I had indicated, you know, the, the jihad and the crusade which went on for centuries until recently, the jihad continues, but there is of course, absolutely no crusade. What's, it's, it's taken different guises and one of them, of course, is this demographic jihad. They actually Call that. It's called that. Remember the word jihad. People apologists will tell you it doesn't mean holy war, it means struggle, strive. It does, and that makes it even more dangerous because historically the only way you were going to struggle and strive against Christians was through force, because they weren't going to give up or give, you know, betray their heritage and their faith just for fun like they are today. But it also meant strive in different ways. You can, you strive with your money, you can fund the jihad, strive by propaganda or lying. Then there's the baby jihad, which is they actually encourage Muslims, men and women, to keep procreating children. And you go now into Europe and almost every large Western city, Oslo, there's so many of them. I wrote about them, maybe four or five capitals. And the number one name of newborn baby boys is Muhammad. And you know, there's a reason for that. The parents are making a point, okay, that they're choosing that name of all names. It's not just any Arabic name. So there's definitely a. Just the numbers are growing. And that's why when you look at certain areas in Europe, like in Sweden or in the uk, Germany, of course, France, you have what you're seeing, which is a lot of these Muslims are growing in numbers and Europeans are not replacing themselves, as we know. There's a decline in the birth rate. And if you look at certain polls, I remember a Pew one, I think it says in Germany, something like by 2050, Muslims are going to be, I don't know, maybe like 40%. And I mean, it's over, game over. At that point, if 20% is even enough, especially if you go back to the idea of all these cowardly people who think, you know, are making a virtue of a vice by not resisting and not doing anything, 20% is plenty. So, yeah, the jihad continues, you know, unabated. And it's taken different forms. And now one of them, the main one, is this sort of baby demographic explosion. And at the same time, as that report indicates, you know, Christianity is seeing a sort of withdrawal. And I think a lot of that is because modern day Western Christianity is just not appealing. It's just, it's, it's become such an abstract idea. You know, it's been stripped of everything, stripped of all sort of concrete. You know, a ritual is one aspect, but even more than ritual, it's stripped of history and it's just an idea, you know, oh, John 3, 16. That's it. And now I live my life like a secular person, so no wonder churches Are, you know, declining and falling away because we need a more robust historic form of Christianity. That is what appealed to people. That's what men fought and died for, as in, in those books, the two swords of Christ. And they're not going to do it for, you know, what, what's being, what's now being paraded as Christianity, which is, which is, as I said, just a mask for craven behavior, essentially.
- [47:07]
Ben Harnwell
This is something that we said on the show time and time again. That coherence in religion is extremely compelling. And that's true whatever the religion is. Right. And this is one of the reasons that we have, we find today this curious phenomenon that a false religion is in a far stronger numerically, arithmetically, in terms of momentum. You mentioned, I think, the word demographic jihad, a false religion and in a far stronger position than the true faith. Let me just quote this thing here because I have the figures right in front of me. And this is the Washington Post. It says that Christianity's share of world population decreased by 1.8 percentage points to 28.8%. And it says here, this is the Washington, I'm quoting the Washington Post. The fall off is driven in large part part by disaffiliation. I think Frank Walk and I, we could spend a whole hour talking over exactly what that means, is it. The Muslim population, on the other hand, increased by 1.8 percentage points to 25.6. Okay, so I think that's really all we have time for. Raymond Ibrahim, very, very honored and grateful for you to come on the show today. Just very briefly, where do people go to get not only the two Swords of Christ, but the previous two books as well in the trilogy.
- [48:34]
Raymond Ibrahim
Yeah, thanks, Ben. You can, you can order in a lot of places online, but easiest place probably is Amazon. They're all available. Sword and Scimitar Defenders Wet. The new book is actually not published yet, but you can pre order it and like I said, but if you and they all stand alone, you know, you don't have to read them to understand them, but they do complement each other because they're kind of different lens on different kind of aspects of the Crusades and these long wars with Islam. But yeah, Amazon, you can probably order all of them right now and on.
- [49:06]
Ben Harnwell
X.
- [49:08]
Raymond Ibrahim
Yeah, yeah, I'm on X. And I also started a new YouTube channel. I invite everyone to, to check it out. It's called the Holy War Channel where I discuss all these topics and more. So that's, that's fun too.
- [49:22]
Ben Harnwell
What's your, what's your handle on X. Where do people go?
- [49:26]
Raymond Ibrahim
RAY yeah, actually the best place just go to my website raymond ibrahim.com and everything's there. You'll find links to my ex, links to my Facebook even though I'm shadow banned there. So even if you follow me there but and also to the YouTube stuff as well as links to the books on Amazon.
- [49:44]
Ben Harnwell
Raymond Ibrahim, thank you very much for coming on the show. We'll catch up again with you soon. Frank Walker, where do people go to get your, your, your, your incredible Canon 212 output and your, your personal website? What, what are the names? Dan and your presence on social media?
- [50:00]
Stephen K. Bannon
Just type it in canon 212 with 1 n c a n o n 212 and bookmark it and you can find me on X. Canon 212 all spilled out and you'll see the video at the Canon 212 site and also at Gloria TV and that's how you find me.
- [50:20]
Ben Harnwell
Frank thanks very much. And by the way, I just want to add folks that if you want to have, if you want to see any of the articles that we've referenced in today's show, Frank's very kindly said that you can just go to canon 212 and he's have the links there on his website. So that's why I normally I point people to my hits on Rumble but go to thanks canon212 for the articles we've hit today. Jenny, where do people go for your substack for your, for your presence on X on social media?
- [50:50]
Jenny Holland
JENNY E. Holland substack and I'm Semper Femina 21 on X. Later today actually I'll be publishing a very short and very interesting essay about a Jesuit called College in California in which a postgraduate course has truly unbelievable violent pornographic material. Training family therapist, if you can believe it. So it's jennyeholland substack.
- [51:17]
Ben Harnwell
Jenny, thanks very much for coming the show. Catch up again with you next Wednesday. Folks, thanks very much for tuning in. I didn't have time to mention the story I wanted to do today with which is a piece in Associated Press that mentions what of all things, the fact that they're looking towards Pope Leo to bring in the cash to save his increasingly illiquid church. What we've been saying here on the War room sort of since his election. Folks, thanks very much for tuning in. Thanks for Denver and Cameron Wallace for putting this show together. Catch up with you soon.
- [51:50]
Steve Bannon
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