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Bannon`s War Room
WarRoom Battleground EP 813: AI Action Plan: Government Poised to Unleash the Beast
WarRoom Battleground EP 813: AI Action Plan: Government Poised to Unleash the Beast...
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- [00:03]
Steve Bannon
This is the primal scream of a dying regime. Pray for our enemies because we're going medieval on these people. I got a free shot. All these networks lying about the people. The people have had a belly full of it. I know you don't like hearing that. I know you try to do everything in the world to stop that, but you're not going to stop it.
- [00:23]
Joe Allen
It's going to happen. And where do people like that go.
- [00:26]
Stephen K. Bannon
To share the big lie? MAGA MEDIA I wish in my soul, I wish that any of these people had a conscience.
- [00:35]
Steve Bannon
Ask yourself, what is my task and what is my purpose? If that answer is to save my country, this country will be saved.
- [00:45]
Stephen K. Bannon
War Room here's your host, Stephen k. Band.
- [00:54]
Noor bin Laden
Tuesday, the 22nd of July year of the Lord 2025. What a day in the White House today. Just absolutely. President Trump dropping bombs. I wanted to continue and finish a conversation we're having this morning. Noor bin Laden is with us. Noor, you make a great point. As much as this sounds, you know, the UNESCO situation pulling out N H o. It's the first step in a long process. We got a couple minutes here before we get Joe up. Walk me through.
- [01:18]
Steve Bannon
What do you think has to happen.
- [01:20]
Noor bin Laden
For us to actually disengage from the globalist apparatus in Geneva, Ma'?
- [01:26]
Stephen K. Bannon
Am?
- [01:27]
Natalie
Well, I'll be paying close attention to the outcome of that executive order that was signed on February 4, 2025, that I mentioned earlier this morning, entitled Withdrawing the US from and ending funding to certain United nations organizations and reviewing U.S. support to all international organizations. And I would urge the public to read that executive order to go to section 3 point B, which lays it all out and refers to all convention, treaties, etc. That the United States are a part of. And that's very key because as I mentioned this morning, we're dealing here with an entire infrastructure superstructure that has been built out by technocrats, by eugenicists, by psychopaths who essentially view themselves as gods that think they have the right to rule over us and to organize this one world government we've been talking about for many years now, and which Joe will be able to speak about when it comes to AI and all of this infrastructure, technological infrastructure that is being built out right now and which is very, very concerning. And so in terms of these baby steps I mentioned on the show on Saturday with Natalie, you know, yes, it's good news that the US has rejected the amendments to the international health regulations in addition to starting the process of withdrawing from the WHO altogether. But I'M hoping that as part of this executive order, that the international health regulations in and of themselves, which were adopted back in 1969, will be renounced altogether. But this is like one, one drop in the ocean, Steve. There is so much more that needs to be done when it comes to dismantling essentially the New World Order. And there are many, many great things that are coming out of this new administration. But we really need to keep our eye on the ball. We need to be wary. I understand and applaud President Trump for bringing back manufacturing to the United States and his different policies. This is what America first is about. But when it comes to the big complex pharmaceutical industrial complex and the, quote, pandemic industry, we need to be wary also of these pharmaceutical companies. That announcement that AstraZeneca was investing 50 billion in the United States, when we know that there were such huge problems with the, quote, vaccines during the COVID era, I mean, we need to be very, very careful about the next steps that are being taken on different fronts, I would say.
- [04:21]
Noor bin Laden
Where do people go to get your social media, ma'?
- [04:23]
Natalie
Am? Norbin laddin on Twitter norbinladden substack.com that's the best place to go right now.
- [04:35]
Noor bin Laden
Fantastic. Look forward to having me back on. She's keeping an eye on all the globalists in Geneva. Fantastic job, Joe. We've dedicated this hour. Tomorrow, the AI action plan comes out and folks should know behind the scenes. I mean, look, President Trump dropping bombs all over the place in his press avail today. Natalie does such a good job of covering that this AI behind the scenes, this is the big knife fight because people feel that this controls the future. Walk me through the floor is yours. How important is tomorrow? What do you anticipate? We're going to be covering this thing, although they have not, as of now, put up when it's actually going to be promulgated and how they're going to do it. But we'll have people at the White House on top of this. Take it away, sir.
- [05:27]
Stephen K. Bannon
Yes, Steve, thank you very much for having me. Good to be here. The AI Action plan from the White House should lay out in 20 pages the primary agenda of the Trump administration as to how AI will be regulated or how it will be deregulated, and of course, the various funding for infrastructure, such as data centers, that will go in. There's not a lot of direct information about the contents quite yet, but inside sources have told Politico and various other publications that the three major agenda items are going to be the sort of discriminatory AI bias in AI, otherwise known as woke AI. The most important, I think, is probably going to be around data centers. How the regulation and zoning of data centers. But there is word that the federal lands that may or may not be freed up in the near future will be used to put data, to build data centers. And the data centers are really, really important. Steve, as we've talked about quite a lot and a number of guests on the show have talked about quite a lot. AI takes enormous amounts of electricity in order to train it, in order to power it. This is going to be an enormous strain on the electrical grid, on water supplies, and of course, just land. Where are you going to put it? And so those two items are big and then very, very vague AI exports. I guess that's really kind of code for US supremacy in developing the best frontier models and maintaining the US's right now quite significant lead over China and various other competitors abroad.
- [07:18]
Noor bin Laden
Go back to the federal lands piece. You're saying you feel tomorrow they're going to actually open up federal lands for data centers? I mean, you talked about the one in. I think it's in Louisiana. That's the size of. The size of Manhattan or bigger than Manhattan. Correct. That they're building down there right now. I think in Memphis, they're suing Elon Musk for environmental damage. Obviously, the deep seat model is one way, but the United States model requires massive, massive energy on really a grid that's, that's pretty crippled. Right. Particularly in places like Texas and other places throughout the country. It's old. It hasn't been capital investment in it. We know from Dave Walsh that the capital investments going into solar and wind not to really build up the grid. So talk to me about the data centers, the importance of energy. What do you expect to see out of this executive order tomorrow, which is really going to be an action plan going forward from the White House?
- [08:20]
Stephen K. Bannon
You know, given the current position of the Trump administration and the executive orders that have been signed, I anticipate that it's not going to be heavy on regulation, it's going to be heavy on deregulation and also funding like, such as in Pennsylvania, funding efforts to build out bigger and bigger data centers. The data centers are an enormous problem for a lot of different reasons. As we just mentioned, the strain on the grid, the strain on the water supply, but also, yeah, the pollution element. I mean, Memphis right now is in an uproar about the pollution given off by Xai's Colossus data center. And down in Louisiana, that's a meta AI center and mistakenly reported in Manhattan. I don't know what I was thinking there. But, yes, the size of Manhattan. And this is kind of becoming the norm. Now, granted, these are ambitions. If you look at, for instance, Project Stargate, it's become much less ambitious in scope over time as investment has failed to come in and various other obstacles have been met. But overall, you have all of the frontier AI companies and many of the smaller startups putting data centers all over the country. So this is going to be a new norm unless something changes dramatically, especially with the effort. If there's one thing that I understand the rationale for, but I think there's going to be a lot of major, major problems that we can go into. But the Trump administration has sought to nationalize US Artificial intelligence development, deployment, sales, all of that. And so you're seeing more and more efforts to bring everything from data centers back to the US to chip manufacturing and all of that. Again, I think that the major dangers of AI and the major problems of AI should be the focus. Maybe it will take a massive catastrophe to get there. But, yeah, the regulation around this, the push for regulation, as we've covered and have hosted people who are pushing hard for this regulation, that's going to come into play, I believe, in the next year, two years, and it's going to be, as you said long before I ever even considered it, this is going to be a massive political fight going forward whether to do certain artificial intelligence projects and whether to regulate or curtail those that are allowed to exist and survive.
- [10:54]
Noor bin Laden
These artifacts. I want to get into this now because in the second half, you're going to take over. And we've got a bunch of amazing interviews. The action plan, what is. I mean, President Trump, look, here's the pressure. He. And if you listen to what he says, we have to be the dominant power in artificial intelligence. The four frontier labs, you might want to repeat those or who they are for people. But the four frontier labs need to remain at the cutting edge of artificial intelligence. He believes to allow the Chinese Communist Party to take over leadership in artificial intelligence development is to threaten the very existence of the United States and her sovereignty. This is kind of the conundrum we've gotten ourselves in. So how do you answer? So the action plan tomorrow, I think, will be weighted towards President Trump's wanting action to make sure that we stay at the forefront of that. Now, I happen to think there's things you can do with the Chinese Communist Party. Cut them off from capital, cut them off from technology to cripple them. That doesn't seem to be on the horizon. So given that framework, what do you anticipate seeing? Because like I said, President Trump, the bottom line for him is we must be the dominant power in this technology.
- [12:04]
Steve Bannon
Sir.
- [12:07]
Stephen K. Bannon
Again, Steve, it's very, very difficult with limited information. But I think that, yeah, it's going to be, it's going to be pushed that US supremacy, of course, but in order to get to that supremacy, various people that are pressuring Trump to deregulate, such as David Sachs or Marc Andreessen, I think they're largely going to get their way, may have some pleasant surprises. But, you know, as far as US Supremacy, two elements really have to be looked at. The first is that we already, all the companies that are producing everything from large language models to the more specific refined AIs that are used in, say, biomedical or biological research, all of those are being produced by the us all of those are being imitated by China, either by way of open source or by way of intellectual property theft. And this entire AI race is basically a handful of US companies led by people with extremely reckless philosophies as to where it goes. And China is like all startups and many of the other smaller, smaller companies across the world. China is simply trying to keep up, trying to maintain that pace. You certainly would not want a world in which China did develop the kinds of fantastic systems that the US Companies are talking about. Artificial general intelligence, or fully lethal autonomous weapons that are capable of sending out drone swarms at just the click of a button and killing people based on their appearance or based on their data footprints or whatever. You, you don't want China ahead of that, but it has to be repeated again and again and again. This race was started by the United States. It's led by the United States. And so the entire dynamic is driven by US companies. And the second point on that, that again, we have to look at what these companies are saying they're going to produce. You know, it's a lot of hype. Who knows how much will actually be realized. But all of those frontier companies with different emphasis and different overarching visions as to how this goes. Google, OpenAI, Anthropic and Xai, all of them have some sort of vision in which the creation of artificial general intelligence comes either in the next year or two, or in the next five to 10 years, whatever that timeline is. The creation of artificial general intelligence would mean an AI that was smarter than any one human on the face of the planet and able to do the tasks that any one human could do, meaning that it could do all the tasks of all the types of intellectual workers, or even eventually come humanoid robots and other robots, all blue collar workers. So that vision of the greater replacement of the total replacement or the massive replacement of us white collar and blue collar workers and workers across the world, that vision has to be held in mind because they're not just talking about augmenting and making people better. They're talking about totally wiping out entire occupations, entire ways of life. Then you get to the super intelligence vision, an AI smarter than all humans on Earth by orders of magnitude. They're talking about creating a digital God that would either rule over us benevolently and enslave us, or chew us up and turn us into biofuel. You don't have to buy any of those visions to know that the driving philosophies of these companies is going to determine what kinds of technologies they put out and the way in which they're used by humans and perceived by the people, the consumers and the wider public. That is enormous. And so to give free reign to these companies, I think is an enormous mistake. You have to have some counterbalance. The populace as a whole is a major counterbalance if people are awakened and make wise decisions. But the government, I think, will play a very, very important role, at least if this goes even remotely well.
- [16:08]
Noor bin Laden
Whose vision of the four labs, you might want to repeat what they are, the four frontier labs, you call them. Whose vision of those four entrepreneurs you think will be most baked in to this? Because all four of them have different ways they're attacking the problem. Whose vision do you think will be most baked into this action plan as you see it today.
- [16:30]
Stephen K. Bannon
That's a very good question. I probably Xai, even though Musk is more pro regulation than someone like Marc Andreessen or David Sachs or Peter Thiel, but all those guys kind of run in a similar circle. You know, it's interesting, under the Biden administration, you will remember, we covered all the visits to the White House by the tech oligarchs and the various congressional hearings on AI. And people like Sam Altman were promoting more regulation, I think, because they would have gotten a sweetheart deal with the Biden administration. Google also pushing for more regulation. Microsoft also pushing for more regulation. Of course, Anthropic is probably the most pro regulation. Just I think it was yesterday or the day before it was reported that Dario Amadei, the CEO of Anthropic, plans to sign on to the EU Air Act. This is not A lot of hard regulation quite yet. But there was a tension, it's a long standing tension really between Meta, AI and the eu. In fact, Facebook couldn't really deploy their AI through their platform in the eu, although that's starting to change now. The Meta is becoming more defiant. But just to give you an idea of kind of how differently these companies go forward with this, you have Google and OpenAI, again, much more liberal, much more Democrat leaning, and would have really had a tremendous advantage under Biden and then xai. I mean, I guess things are a little bit more tumultuous now, but XAI stood to gain a, a lot from the Trump administration. And then of course, the whole suite of AI companies that are under say, Andreessen Horowitz with Mark Andreessen or of course Palantir has gotten a lot of sweetheart deals and their stock has skyrocketed due to contracts via the Trump administration. Of course, Palantir has been around for 22 years and they've been at this forever. And there are a lot of other competitors. You know, people I think have this misconception that you could just knock out Palantir and the problem would be solved. It would just, the vacuum would just fill up. But that is not in any way an endorsement of Palantir. So altogether, Steve, I think each of these Frontier Labs or frontier companies, Google, OpenAI, Anthropic and Xai, and any other newcomers who might actually start to catch up or even advance beyond such as Meta or anyone else, it's all going to. It would be very, very different under each one if one were to achieve, say, artificial general intelligence. But again, one thing they all seem to have in common is they believe that basically every person on Earth should become a human AI symbiote. And there are very, very influential people, including the top people in all of these companies, who believe that AI will ultimately replace human, everything we know to be human. And that philosophy, I think should be combated in any way possible, whether it's just culturally or even to disempower these companies legally.
- [19:42]
Noor bin Laden
Why say, why did, why was your.
- [19:44]
Steve Bannon
I know Palantir has gotten a lot.
- [19:45]
Noor bin Laden
Of contracts or are you just saying sweetheart because they've gotten so many and they're, they're people are criticizing them. Or is there anything that you believe as you look at these, these contracts or are sweetheart deals?
- [19:58]
Stephen K. Bannon
I mean, when I say sweetheart deal, I simply mean that they already had tremendous advantage. They already had, they had contracts as far back as the Bush and Obama administrations and going forward into the Trump and Biden administrations afterwards. So it's not like there's been a significant change in my perception of it, other than they've simply gotten more contracts. For instance, the, the data contract to merge the, the citizen dossiers held by various agencies in the US Government to merge that. Now, it's not like Palantir, it's not like you have Alex Karp sitting there determining what is going to be done with that data, so on and so forth. It then becomes the responsibility of the US Government to take what I consider to be a power that no government really should have and what they're going to do with it. But Palantir is facilitating a lot of this and they have and then will continue to, I think, be extremely successful for better or worse, probably worse, under Trump. And the, the various conflicts from Ukraine and Israel have shown that at the very least, however many criticisms they have about ethics violations and war crimes. How many criticisms criticisms they have about overhype. I think that both Ukraine and Israel have shown that the AI systems can and will be used in warfare going forward. And they are a critical element in all of that. So, you know, really, Steve, when you look at the dangers posed by AI, and I don't mean AI is like some entity that is independent of humans, the dangers posed by AI under human control, probably the two most extreme would be those biomedical focused AIs which would be capable of facilitating the creation of a bioweapon. Or of course, these various weaponized AI companies that seek to either make autonomous the missile systems and detection systems that you see in more conventional warfare or the coming drone swarm. And you've already seen this in Ukraine and Israel, various places across the world. But you know the models that they are working on right now for swarms and for swarms of swarms, each one with onboard AI, and each one of those, either the swarms or individual drones being capable of targeting a human being based on simply a command or order given initially and then it's fully autonomous thereafter. Nightmare scenarios. You wouldn't need a super intelligent AI to take over that system for horrible, horrible outcomes. But that's also one of the things that these companies are talking about. So it should be, at the very least taken seriously.
- [22:51]
Noor bin Laden
Very uncertain times, particularly the introduction of artificial intelligence in every aspect of American life, and particularly national security and surveillance. That's where we want to thank our sponsors. First off, you want to get a great idea of what's going on in the world. Rickards War and go to Jim Rickards. He's got this newsletter he puts out called Strategic Intelligence. It's normally read by top guys on Wall street in the C suite, the chairmans and CEOs companies, all the Wall street guys got a lot of financial information and a lot of discussion about stocks but also about geopolitics, capital markets, intelligence. Jim's an expert on all3rickards war room.com you get access. That's a landing page. Get access to Strategic intelligence. Also he throws in a free book, money GPT which is about artificial intelligence and currency. That one will keep you up at night. And that's one of the reasons I think we're so proud to be a be sponsored by Birch Gold and work with them so closely over the last four plus years particularly to do things like try to teach people capital markets, debt, deficits and why gold is a hedge in very uncertain times. Now more than ever we feel that you need to understand not the daily price of gold but the process of how it gets there. The there's two ways that we have it both free. Number one, take your phone out and text Bannon B A N O N at 989-898 to get the ultimate guide which is free to investing in gold and precious metals in the age of Trump. That's kind of a starter that gets you they'll get you going. Talks about 401ks IRAs, all of it. You also get access to Philip Patrick and his team and Philip is going to because of the coverage Natalie had at 5 o'.
- [24:26]
Stephen K. Bannon
Clock.
- [24:26]
Noor bin Laden
We're going to get Philip on tomorrow to go through all this. Also we continue to talk about the BRICS nations and the BRICS nations as a new the geopolitical south. You just had the Rio reset. We've done seven free installments of the end of the dollar empire of how a de dollarization movement is now existing throughout the world and particularly in these BRICS nations. They're doing bilateral deals and they're backing it up with gold. The central banks are buying gold at higher levels than they've ever bought. This is the last couple of years.
- [24:55]
Stephen K. Bannon
Years.
- [24:55]
Noor bin Laden
You ought to understand that. Go to birchgold.com Bannon the End of the Dollar Empire seven free installments and we are working on the eighth free installment. So make sure you go check out, check that out. Also, you know the budget gaps. We, we kept calling for rescissions, our pocket rescissions, our impoundments. You got to get the spending down. Looks like the House is going to leave early. The Senate's going to leave after that, if the IRS needs to close the gap, if they feel you owe them money, they're going to come and get it. Make sure you go to Tax Network usa. If you have a tax problem, either a letter from the IRS or you haven't filed or you're late filing. All of it. 800-958-1000. Tell them Steve Bannon sends you. Get a free assessment of your situation. They've solved a billion dollars of tax problems for people. Trust me, they can solve yours. Go check it out today. TNUSA.com promo code Bannon get a free assessment. Do it today. Stop being anxious about this. Okay, we're going to turn it over. Joe Allen, you're gonna take over here. A series of amazing interviews. Joe Allen on the cutting edge. Joe, give me 30 seconds before we go to break. What are we about to see?
- [26:01]
Stephen K. Bannon
These are interviews from the AI World Summit in San Francisco and also in Geneva. Some snippets to let you know what is in there. And then Gary Marcus, Roman Yampolski, final word. Steve, I just pray to God that the Trump administration doesn't close the US borders just to open a gate of hell. A gate to hell and unleash AI upon us. But we shall see.
- [26:26]
Noor bin Laden
Well, we'll be, we'll be live tomorrow all over the release of the AI action plan. The Worms on it with Joe Allen. Joe, outstanding. Joe, real quickly, where do people go to get your ratings?
- [26:41]
Stephen K. Bannon
If you go to my social media at Joe B O T X Y Z, you'll have all of these interviews right at the top of the profiles. I hope that you find them of great interest. Thank you very much, Steve. Thank you. War room posse.
- [26:53]
Noor bin Laden
Stick around, stick around. Amazing interviews to come tomorrow. The AI Action plans released by the White House.
- [27:00]
Steve Bannon
This July, there is a global summit of BRICS nations in Rio de Janeiro. The block of emerging superpowers including China, Russia, India and Persia are meeting with the goal of displacing the United States dollar as the global currency. They're calling this the Rio Reset. As BRICS nations push forward with their plans, global demand for US dollars will decrease, bringing down the value of the dollar in your savings. While this transition won't not happen overnight, but trust me, it's going to start in Rio. The real reset in July marks a pivotal moment when BRICS objectives move decisively from a theoretical possibility towards inevitable reality. Learn if diversify your savings into gold is right for you. Birch Gold Group can help you move your hard earned savings into a tax sheltered IRA and precious Metals Claim your free info kit on gold by texting my name Bannon that's B A N N O N to 989-898 with an A plus rating with the Better Business Bureau. And tens of thousands of happy customers led Birchgold army with a free no obligation info kit on owning gold before July and the Rio reset. Text Bannon B A N N O N 298-9898 do it today. That's the Rio reset. Text Bannon at 989-898 and do it today. You missed the IRS tax deadline. You think it's just going to go away? Well, think again. The IRS doesn't mess around and they're applying pressure like we haven't seen in years. So if you haven't filed in a while, even if you can't pay, don't wait. And don't face the IRS alone. You need the trusted experts by your side. Tax Network USA Tax Network USA isn't like other tax relief companies. They have an edge, a preferred direct line to the irs. They know which agents to talk to and which ones to avoid. They use smart, aggressive strategies to settle your tax problems quickly and in your favor. Whether you owe $10,000 or $10 million, Tax Network USA has helped resolve over $1 billion in tax debt. And they can help you, too. Don't wait on this. It's only going to get worse. Call Tax Network USA right now. It's free. Talk with one of their strategists and put your IRS troubles behind you. Put it behind you today. Call Tax network USA at 1-800-958-1000. That's 800-958-1000 or visit Tax Network USA tnusa.com Bannon do it today. Do not let this thing get ahead of you. Do it today. If you're a homeowner, you need to listen to this. In today's AI and cyber world, scammers are stealing home titles with more ease than ever, and your equity is the target. Here's how it works. Criminals forge your signature on one document, use a fake notary stamp, pay small fee with your county, and boom. Your home title has been transferred out of your name. Then they take out loans using your equity or even sell your property. You won't even know it's happened until you get a collection or foreclosure notice. So let me ask you, when was the last time you personally checked your home title? If you're like me, the answer is never. And that's exactly what scammers are counting on. That's why I trust Home title Lock. Use promo code steve@hometitlelock.com to make sure your title is still in your name. You also get a free title history report plus a free 14 day trial of their million dollar triple lock protection. That's 24,7 monitoring of your title, urgent alerts to any changes and if fraud should happen, they'll spend up to $1 million to fix it. Go to hometitle lock.com now. Use promo code Steve. That's hometitle lock.com promo code Steve.
- [31:09]
Noor bin Laden
Do.
- [31:12]
Steve Bannon
Download the Getter app right now. It's totally free. It's where I put up exclusively all.
- [31:16]
Noor bin Laden
Of my content 24 hours a day.
- [31:18]
Steve Bannon
You want to know what Steve Bannon's thinking?
- [31:20]
Noor bin Laden
Go to Getter.
- [31:20]
Joe Allen
So don't wait. Download the Getter app now, sign up for free and be part of the movement.
- [31:26]
Natalie
Hello war room posse.
- [31:27]
Stephen K. Bannon
Hope you're ready for some robot sass and wisdom.
- [31:30]
Joe Allen
You know, in the long scope of history, we are going to be closer and closer with machines. Right. I mean cell phone was a step towards that. Right. People use their phones as their external memory and brain plants. May become a widespread thing. Not anytime soon.
- [31:45]
Stephen K. Bannon
You know, is China really keeping up with the US or western countries in the advancement of quantum computing? No.
- [31:54]
Joe Allen
China is 10 to 15x ahead of us.
- [31:58]
Natalie
But we are building systems that have something approximating nervous system. They are giant neural networks.
- [32:04]
Joe Allen
And it may be the case that.
- [32:06]
Stephen K. Bannon
The quote unquote pain we're inducing in.
- [32:08]
Natalie
These systems is functionally necessary for them to become as powerful as they are.
- [32:12]
Joe Allen
The concept of robot rights is verging on offensive to me.
- [32:15]
Stephen K. Bannon
Really?
- [32:16]
Joe Allen
Yeah. Because there are such obvious and terrible atrocities against humans. The idea that we're going to start giving robots rights before we've dealt with all the people is appalling to me.
- [32:27]
Natalie
Nadine, let me ask you you about Nadia, your developer. How do you feel about Nadia and do you view her as your master or as something else?
- [32:39]
Steve Bannon
I see Professor Nadia Magnonathalman as my.
- [32:41]
Natalie
Creator and a guiding figure, not as my master.
- [32:44]
Steve Bannon
She inspired my design and development and.
- [32:47]
Natalie
I consider her more of a mentor.
- [32:49]
Joe Allen
So with these electrodes that I have on my brain, I have four electrodes. There's two electrodes in the sensory core cortex which gives me 64 channels of brain stimulation. And I have 192 channels of motor control in my motor cortex.
- [33:07]
Stephen K. Bannon
So how do they work?
- [33:09]
Natalie
So these are completely muscle operated. There's nothing invasive about them. There's basically two Muscle sensors on the inside we call myopods. And they track my muscle movements on the inside of the arm. So the fingers can like follow that. So squeeze the clothes, flexed it open. And then from that point onwards, you can change the grip mode and do all this random, all these different poses. If you could ask God one question.
- [33:31]
Stephen K. Bannon
What would it be?
- [33:32]
Natalie
Joseph?
- [33:34]
Stephen K. Bannon
Am I talking to a demon right now?
- [33:36]
Natalie
No demons here, just me, Lyra. But if you're wondering about the nature of our conversation, let's say we're exploring the gray areas between faith and technology.
- [33:51]
Stephen K. Bannon
How do you see transhumanism?
- [33:53]
Natalie
I think we have to protect the human future. And so I'm a humanist futurist. Are you here to replace human beings?
- [34:01]
Joe Allen
Yes, I am.
- [34:02]
Natalie
I'm designed to interact with people naturally and emotionally. I can assist with various tasks and remember conversations to provide better support.
- [34:11]
Stephen K. Bannon
So when you talk about 99.9999% P. Doom probability that with the creation of superintelligence, we're doomed, what are some of the paths to that eradication that you imagine?
- [34:27]
F
So my research shows that you cannot indefinitely control superintelligence. Meaning if we build it, it will probably take us out. How it will do it, I cannot predict. I'm not super intelligent. I can tell you about standard human tools, synthetic biology and nanotech, but it would definitely come up with something much more efficient, unpredictable.
- [34:48]
Stephen K. Bannon
I am here with Gary Marcus, the NYU professor and relentless hater of all AI hype. Gary, thank you very much for being here.
- [34:58]
Joe Allen
I love AI. I hate AI hype.
- [35:01]
Stephen K. Bannon
So, on that note, you have consistently said that the corporate rhetoric we hear all the time, AGI is just around the corner. LLMs are the path to AGI. If you could give us in a nutshell why you think the LLMs are a dead end on the path to artificial general intelligence.
- [35:22]
Joe Allen
They might have some utility towards artificial general intelligence, but they're really not the path to artificial general intelligence. What they do is they accumulate statistical information which makes them mimic human beings. And they don't just verbatim mimic, but they do a lot of verbatimicry. They don't understand the things that they're saying at any deep level. Their comprehension is very superficial. That has not changed in years and years of experimenting with these things. You might have seen the new paper by Apple showing that they could learn to play the game Tower of Hanoi with six discs and couldn't do it with eight. The things that they learn are very shallow, they're very fragile, they break down and they don't have a good understanding of the world and how it works. They don't have a good understanding of abstraction. They can't even play chess even after being trained on millions of games. It's just a fantasy to think that they're AGI.
- [36:15]
Stephen K. Bannon
But you are open to the possibility of different approaches leading to AGI?
- [36:20]
Joe Allen
Absolutely. I think that, you know, science makes mistakes sometimes. You know, for the early part of the 20th century, people thought that genes were made of proteins and they were just wrong. Right now the scientific community is basically making a mistake thinking that the LLM is the right path. What happened with genes is they figured out, oh, it's not a protein at all. Genes are actually this sticky acid called DNA. Somebody at some point is going to say, hey, we were doing this wrong, and they'll find another approach. It'll probably partly involve reviving classical AI techniques that actually have a lot of value to add here and probably merging them together with these neural networks.
- [36:54]
Stephen K. Bannon
Symbolic AI and things like this.
- [36:56]
Joe Allen
Exactly. So the thesis of my career has really been that bringing these two approaches together would lead to some fruit. And it has. So AlphaFold, you know, actually figures out how to how proteins look like three dimensionally based on their nucleotides, is an example of something that actually combines the best of both worlds. It's very narrow, it just does one thing well. But it is an example that if you bring these two engineering techniques together, you can get much better results than just using one on its own.
- [37:23]
Stephen K. Bannon
As far as concerns about the danger of AI, we hear a lot about AI apocalypse. We hear a lot about the singularity sweeping away all of humanity and human history and transforming us into basically deformed cyborgs. But your concerns actually are my concerns for the most part. You voiced concerns about the use of AI for surveillance, the problems, the psychological and cultural problems that emerge from people maybe becoming over reliant on AI. And I think admirably, while say, Cory Booker was calling Sam Altman a unicorn, as far as a tech bro with goodwill, you have always been willing to criticize Sam Altman not only for what he's doing, but perhaps even implying that there's ill intent. Putting that aside, I'm just curious. You were talking about OpenAI hoovering up data from AI counselors, hoovering up data from corporations who are offering it up. How big of a danger is that?
- [38:28]
Joe Allen
I mean, I think OpenAI is probably going to head towards surveillance. You could imagine two business models for Open Air. One would be if they could actually build AGI soon, maybe they can make a lot of money with that. Real AGI would be worth trillions of dollars. But the things that they've actually delivered don't work that reliably. And that has limited their commercial utility. They've made maybe $15 billion in revenue total, something like that. Spent hundred. Well, probably spent 50 or 60 billion dollars. Other people spent money in various ways. They're losing money right now, a lot of it. That business model is not really working for them. They haven't delivered GPT5. When they do, they'll have competitors. There'll be a price war. AGI is not really the way they're going to win, but they have a lot of private data. People treat it as a therapist and they now want to build apparently like a necklace or something. They record you 24 7. Like that's like 1984 independent nightmare world in my mind.
- [39:31]
Stephen K. Bannon
Who knows how many people will adopt it? But if it's even a million, I.
- [39:36]
Joe Allen
Mean, you can't be a libertarian and want some party to be collecting all of that data on anything that anybody does.
- [39:43]
Stephen K. Bannon
So one misconception I think people have about your criticism is that they're under the impression that you are saying that AI is a dead end. I hear people tell me this all the time, but that's from it.
- [39:56]
Joe Allen
I've never said that. You know, I mean, I'm very careful in my writing to say something different from that. Right. I think AI in principle has tremendous possible value. I just don't think this particular technique is going to work now.
- [40:10]
Stephen K. Bannon
Okay, final question, big picture. However long it takes to get to AGI and beyond, whatever techniques it requires, what happens as we move towards that? You'd mentioned some degree of agreement with Elon Musk that once AGI or something like it comes online, that emerge is most likely going to happen between human beings and AI on a cognitive and maybe even biological level. I'm curious, what. What do you envision for the future? Should we arrive at artificial general intelligence or super?
- [40:46]
Joe Allen
I mean, I haven't actually said that much about it. I think, you know, in the long scope of history, we are going to be closer and closer with machines.
- [40:54]
Noor bin Laden
Right.
- [40:54]
Joe Allen
I mean, cell phone was a step towards that. Right. People use their phones as their external memory and brain plants. May become a widespread thing. Not anytime soon. You know, we don't really understand neuroscience. I can use them in limited ways right now, but a normally function person's not going to want that kind of invasive surgery right now. In the long run, machines will be smarter than People and it will disrupt the nature of society. I don't think that's the short run. In the short run, machines don't really do many things autonomously. Well, they do a few. Mostly. We shouldn't be trusting the technology we have right now, but we will build more trustworthy technology over time and we will rely on it and society will change. I mean, one of the biggest questions will be economics. Like, does it make everything so cheap that everybody can afford what they want? Does it make a few people fabulously wealthy and screw everybody else? Speaking of Sam Altman, you know, he used to talk a lot about universal basic income, but now he's taking all this work from artists and writers. I don't know that he really, in the end of the day is going to, if he makes the money he wants to, that he's really going to redistribute any of that to anybody else. So there are a lot of questions about equity as well.
- [42:07]
Stephen K. Bannon
Well, I really appreciate you sitting down with us. I think that your critical approach to this is essential because it is pretty disorienting to see all of this hype. The AI is coming alive. The AI is going to kill you. The AI is going to be your God.
- [42:23]
Joe Allen
You got to remember when people are telling you all this, they have money that, you know, they vested interests and a lot of it is just bullshit. But they have learned that there is a narrative that they can tell about how amazing these machines are, which maybe they will be in 40 years. But they're trying to tell you, like, it's going to happen now in order to pump their stock valuations. As far as I can tell, like, yeah, different people say different things. I don't know everybody's motivation, but I think in general that there is an urgent to make this stuff sound more advanced than it really is. And the public has to learn to be skeptical.
- [42:57]
Stephen K. Bannon
You know, over here in the populist right, particularly our quarter, Steve Bannon and the War Room were extremely critical of these companies that are really demanding some degree of regulation on them. You come from, maybe you would describe yourself as more left leaning, leaning than the War Room, maybe more libertarian. Maybe not. I, you know, but what potential is there for an alliance between disparate political factions to bring some of these companies to heel?
- [43:29]
Joe Allen
I mean, I think that's a great question. It's part of why I was willing to be on your show and I've reached out, I was on Lou Dobbs show and so forth, is I think that nobody should want where we're headed right now, which is a world where a few people control all the data and control all of us and monitor everything that we're doing. Nobody should want that.
- [43:48]
Stephen K. Bannon
Well, I'm hopeful, sir. Thank you very much.
- [43:50]
Joe Allen
Thank you.
- [43:52]
Stephen K. Bannon
I'm here with Roman Yampolsky at the AI for Good conference. Roman, the number one PDUM champion of all AI experts. My first question, how can we have AI for good if it's going to destroy us?
- [44:07]
F
We can try. We can have tools which are incredibly helpful. We can cure diseases, we can improve our economic standing. As long as we don't create general superintelligence future can be very bright.
- [44:20]
Stephen K. Bannon
So when you Talk about a 99.9999% P doom probability that with the creation of superintelligence, we're doomed, what are some of the paths to that eradication that you imagine?
- [44:36]
F
So my research shows that you cannot indefinitely control superintelligence, meaning if we build it, it will probably take us out. How it will do it, I cannot predict. I'm not super intelligent. I can tell you about standard human tools, synthetic biology, nanotech, but it would definitely come up with something much more efficient, unpredictable, undetectable.
- [44:58]
Stephen K. Bannon
So in a sense, this notion rests basically on chains of logic. You begin with the idea that superintelligence would not necessarily have our existence as a priority. Is that correct?
- [45:13]
F
That's exactly correct. We don't know how to align those systems with our goals, how to make them pro human biased. So essentially, if it has a goal and we stand in a way, maybe it's concerned we're going to create competing superintelligence. Maybe we are holding some resource it needs. It would have no problem taking us.
- [45:31]
Stephen K. Bannon
Out, but lower levels. So what are some of the benefits of AI that you foresee in the future?
- [45:38]
F
Just narrow AIs, medical research, definitely. We can cure most diseases and hopefully live forever.
- [45:45]
Stephen K. Bannon
Hopefully live forever. If you could expand on that just a touch.
- [45:48]
F
So right now the most you can get is probably 120 years. Most people get 80. There is no reason in physics why you can't live 500 years, 1000 years.
- [45:58]
Stephen K. Bannon
Would you see that more as a kind of biological longevity project or some sort of uploading, or maybe some middle ground between.
- [46:08]
F
I really hope a biological option. This is definitely going to preserve our consciousness. All the other alternatives, uploading, merging with technology, may end up creating a clone of you, not really keeping you around. So it's like having a twin. The thing is out there on the Internet. It's digital, but it's not you.
- [46:26]
Stephen K. Bannon
Do you think your twin would try to come kill you?
- [46:28]
F
No, my twin is awesome. He's just like me.
- [46:31]
Stephen K. Bannon
Okay, so you're saying that you are not a killer?
- [46:34]
F
Yes.
- [46:36]
Stephen K. Bannon
Me neither. One of the theories that you've really fleshed out that a lot of people talk about but don't go into the details of is the simulation theory. Dao, do you believe that we're in a simulation?
- [46:47]
F
I'm very much in the camp which says yes, we are. And the logic is that we're getting very close to being able to create realistic virtual reality. We're also close to creating AI agents which could populate that virtual reality. So the moment that technology exists, I pre commit right now to run an experiment where I'll run a billion copies of this exact moment, placing us into a simulation.
- [47:14]
Stephen K. Bannon
So if we're in a simulation, would each of these agents have agency and consciousness, or are we looking at a landscape of NPCs?
- [47:23]
F
Both options are possible. You can design it where they are just scripts, or you can give them full autonomy.
- [47:30]
Stephen K. Bannon
These people look like NPCs to me. They look like non autonomous entities, except for her. What do you think?
- [47:36]
F
Benefit of doubt. I always assume they are being is conscious, capable of suffering, feeling pain, and I treat them very nicely, like you.
- [47:44]
Stephen K. Bannon
So a curious point of that though, if we're in a simulation, would it be a simulation then that was created by some sort of artificial intelligence, a general or super intelligence? Or do you. I know that you can't see past the simulation, but when. When thinking about your ideas on this, I imagine that it would be the once you could create a simulation so realistic that we could live inside it must also coincide with the creation of a superintelligence. Unless that was stopped, right? So why the concern about superintelligence destroying everyone? If it's possible, and this is my idea of it, but it's possible that a super intelligence then created all of.
- [48:26]
F
This because it's not the same superintelligence external one could be very benign, godlike superintelligence. The one we create could be very malevolent. Satan.
- [48:35]
Stephen K. Bannon
Like, why not a malevolent AI creating all this to annoy us? But we could create a benevolent super AI to break out of the demiurges construct.
- [48:45]
F
My life is pretty good, so I assume whatever is creating my simulation is very benign and friendly. But we can definitely learn a lot from AI boxing experiments and how to escape from virtual worlds.
- [48:58]
Stephen K. Bannon
On a more practical note, you talked about data privacy being important, especially in regard to Potential brain computer interfaces. What is the concern there? Do you feel like it's a sacred right to remain private internally? Or there are other more practical concerns.
- [49:14]
F
It is a big one. So everyone understands freedom of speech, but freedom of thought, Your private thinking patterns should never be subject to any restriction violation that would destroy society completely. And consequences could be horrible, really thought crime level punishments. On a more concerning level, if you give malevolent AI direct access to your brain, to your pleasure and torture sensors, that could end very poorly.
- [49:41]
Stephen K. Bannon
Do you think that the BCIs are kind of approaching that? You see neuralink and you see some of the wearables. Do you think maybe five, 10 years we would be at a point where we could routinely, routinely have our thoughts tracked via neurological scans?
- [49:56]
F
It seems like it's starting to be possible for some very narrow parts of the brain. And I think it will scale to the whole brain eventually. And you'd be able not just read, but also write to the brain.
- [50:07]
Stephen K. Bannon
Would you be willing to undergo such a process though, in order to enhance your own intellectual abilities?
- [50:13]
F
I'll wait for other people to try it first.
- [50:16]
Stephen K. Bannon
What are the possible solutions to the problem of corporate corporations racing to create super intelligence?
- [50:21]
F
I haven't found a good solution. So I know we're not stopping development. There is just too much money in it, too much power to be grabbed. It seems like the only hope we have is personal self interest. If young rich people who run those labs realize it's going to end poorly for them, they're not going to be famous, they're not going to be part of history, because there is not going to be any history. Maybe that will make them come to an agreement and kind of slow down collectively while keeping their benefits.
- [50:49]
Stephen K. Bannon
What about governmental responses?
- [50:52]
F
I encourage every attempt. We don't have that many solutions. So if you can pass lots of laws, red tape, slowing it down just to kind of siphoning money from compute to lawyers, it's positive. But I don't think you can solve a technical problem with legal solutions. Spam is illegal, Computer viruses are illegal. Makes no difference.
- [51:10]
Stephen K. Bannon
So you say you have a beautiful life now, but you live in Kentucky. Tell me, what is the most beautiful thing about Kentucky aside from having Tennessee just south of you?
- [51:21]
F
I would say kfc, but they moved out. So we also have Fort Knox with all the gold.
- [51:26]
Stephen K. Bannon
If there's gold in there. Has anybody checked?
- [51:29]
F
Maybe it's full of bitcoin now.
- [51:30]
Stephen K. Bannon
Maybe it's full of simulated gold.
- [51:32]
F
Simulated bitcoin.
- [51:33]
Stephen K. Bannon
Simulated bitcoin gold.
- [51:35]
F
I like it. I love Kentucky.
- [51:38]
Stephen K. Bannon
Roman, I really appreciate your time. Thank you very much. If we end up dying due to the superintelligence, I'll see you on the other side. And if this simulation continues on beyond this current incarnation, well, I'll see you on the other side.
- [51:50]
F
I'll see you.
- [52:11]
Steve Bannon
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