WarRoom Battleground EP 858: Dems Search For A Shtick As MAGA Is Now The Workers’ Voice, And Nigel Farage Looks Unstoppable in UK

Summary

Podcast Summary: War Room Battleground EP 858

Title: Dems Search For A Shtick As MAGA Is Now The Workers’ Voice, And Nigel Farage Looks Unstoppable in UK
Date: September 26, 2025
Host: Steve Bannon and WarRoom.org Team
Guests: Dave Weigel (Semaphore), Matt Goodwin (GB News, Substack)

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

This episode delves into two interconnected themes: first, the Democratic Party’s attempt to rebrand itself via the emergent “Abundance Movement” in the US, seen as a potential rival to MAGA’s working-class populism; second, the dramatic rise of Nigel Farage’s Reform Party in the UK, the surge of anti-immigration sentiment, and the ongoing social-political revolution. The show features thoughtful discussions with political reporter Dave Weigel and British commentator Matt Goodwin, addressing parallels in both countries and exploring why establishment politics is struggling to adapt to new populist realities.

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US Segment: Democrats, the “Abundance Movement,” and MAGA’s Populist Shift

1. What Is the Abundance Movement?

[01:43] Dave Weigel Explains:

• The “Abundance Movement” arises as some Democrats—especially in California and New York—seek to counter the anti-growth stance of the environmental “degrowth” and NIMBY factions.
• “They want a sci fi future where you can achieve anything cheaply... more condos, fewer parking lots. It had a lot of buy in from Silicon Valley Democrats.” —Dave Weigel [01:47]
• It’s a response to the party’s regulatory excesses, which have alienated pro-growth, Silicon Valley-aligned donors.

2. The Movement’s Internal Contradictions

• The movement’s main antagonists: degrowth environmentalists and populist anti-corporate Democrats (Sanders, AOC, Warren, Lina Khan).
• Unlike Sanders/AOC, the Abundance crowd is “okay with big corporations,” seeking market-driven solutions and streamlined regulation.
• “Abundance doesn’t really have a problem with large corporations... Their antagonists are... degrowthers and the populists who say for human flourishing, you need an aggressive government that breaks up big companies.” —Dave Weigel [05:46]
• The “woke” debate is less central here; economic growth is the focus.

3. Is Abundance Just Libertarianism Recycled?

[08:14] Host Analysis & Weigel’s Response

• Host questions whether Abundance is “Koch Brothers” libertarianism, rebranded for Democrats, since many funders were MAGA exiles.
• “You can almost see what’s happened... no one in MAGA wants to take our [Koch] calls... so they put that out [to the Democrats]... It’s the Koch brothers largesse.” —Host [08:14]
• Weigel agrees: Koch-affiliated donors sponsor “Abundance,” but California Democrats like Gavin Newsom are most comfortable only with regulatory/pragmatic streamlining, not full-on libertarianism.
• “Yes, that does mean alliances with the Kochs... They are not comfortable in MAGA.” —Dave Weigel [10:57]

4. The MAGA Shift and Worker Realignment

[13:20+] Host & Weigel

• As MAGA rejects Chamber of Commerce/Koch influence to focus on blue-collar interests, Democrats are left trying to be the party of the “working guy.”
• “MAGA... kicked out all the Chamber of Commerce influence... to focus on the well-being of the regular blue-collar worker. And the Democrats still to this day don’t know how to deal with that.” —Host [17:03]
• MAGA’s refusal to “filter gains down” to elites is fueling a realignment; Democrats now openly court donor blocs formerly aligned with Republicans.

5. Democrats’ Struggle to Connect with Workers

[20:21] Weigel:

• Biden’s economic populism doesn’t resonate; culture overrides economic policy for many workers.
• “There is a populist side of the Democratic Party... but if you ask labor unions why their rank and file move towards Trump... Two reasons: Trump was running on doing the same thing. Two, culturally they were much more akin to Trump.” —Dave Weigel [21:09]
• Identity politics, racial preferences in contracts, and slow project delivery are all flashpoints: “A pluralist, multiracial Democratic Party... is going to have some problems keeping their coalition together.” —Weigel [21:52]
• The party is losing ground “with nonwhite working-class voters.”

6. Can Democrats Outflank MAGA on Cost-of-Living?

[23:47] Weigel:

• Democratic hope: Republicans vulnerable on rising living costs (“costs aren’t down”).
• “That’s the opening that the Abundance movement sees... Costs, not just housing, but groceries, are top-of-mind for voters. Voters don’t say ‘abundance’ is the solution; they want lower costs.” —Weigel [24:10]
• Debate over tariffs: historically a Democratic (labor) position, now MAGA’s tool.

7. Core Lesson—The Economic Stakes

[25:33] Host:

• It’s still “the economy, stupid.” Whichever party solves the cost-of-living crisis wins the long game.
• “If the people who are running this movement in political office really want to see it continue, that’s what they’re going to have to do.” —Host [25:56]

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UK Segment: Nigel Farage, Reform Party, and Britain’s Populist Surge

1. Reform’s Meteoric Rise

[32:46] Matt Goodwin reports:

• Reform and Farage at “34% of the national vote”—Labour and Conservatives far behind.
• Two key voter motivations:
  1. “Stop the illegal migration invasion. More than 180,000 people have entered our country illegally since 2018.”
  2. “Dramatically lower legal migration. 5 million people in the last five years—over 80% from outside of Europe.”
     —Goodwin [32:46]
• “There’s a real feeling here... people feel they’re losing their country.”

2. From Fringe to Mainstream

[34:30] Goodwin:

• Farage events now draw thousands; planning for governance, not mere protest.
• “It’s like where America was in 2015. This is Donald Trump coming down the escalator—everyone thinking ‘this’ll never happen,’ but planning for government anyway.”
• Major defection: Conservative MP Danny Kruger joins Reform, signaling imminent governmental ambitions.

3. Mass Protest and the Overton Window

[37:01] Host:

• Formerly “taboo” figures like Tommy Robinson now draw millions in peaceful protest against immigration.
• Goodwin: “What all those people are saying loud and clear: they’ve had enough of mass uncontrolled immigration, enough of broken borders, enough of two-tier justice.”

4. The Core Issue: Immigration, Not Marginal Concerns

[41:11] Goodwin:

• “Education, education, education”—Blair’s motto—is now “immigration, immigration, immigration.”
• “Every single year since 1997... more immigration into the UK in each of those years than over the entire period between the Anglo Saxons and the end of WW2.”
  —Goodwin [42:38]
• Public anger at unfulfilled Brexit promises; the “palpable anger” at the betrayal by both Conservative and Labour elites.

5. Collapse of Trust and the Social Contract

[44:06] Goodwin:

• Betrayal by the ruling class (Johnson’s “mass immigration on steroids”; Starmer’s globalist prioritization).
• “We have a ruling class... that no longer understands this country or even likes this country. Keir Starmer said, ‘I prefer Davos to Westminster.’”
  —Goodwin [44:57]
• Voters feel excluded: “They’re being looked down on, a bit like Trump voters... tired of this experiment of mass migration... imposed from above.”

6. Erosion of Liberty and Free Speech

[47:17] Goodwin:

• Assaults on individual liberty and speech:
  • Cancer patient harassed by police for a Facebook post.
  • Lucy Connolly jailed for nearly 3 years over social media content.
  • New government initiatives controlling legitimate speech, university “cancel culture,” and redefining mainstream views as “terrorist ideology.”
• “We have a socialist government imposing a new definition of Islamophobia... basically control what we can and cannot say about Islam... Americans recognize it. You’ve got the First Amendment. We do not.”
  —Goodwin [48:28]

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NOTABLE QUOTES & TIMESTAMPS

• Dave Weigel [01:47]:
  “The future that we want is a sci-fi future where you can achieve anything cheaply... let’s build more condos and fewer parking lots.”
• Host [08:14]:
  “You can almost see what’s happened... the Koch brothers idea of populism is very much this: that the free market will solve all your ills.”
• Dave Weigel [21:09]:
  “If you ask labor unions why their rank and file move towards Trump... culturally they were much more akin to Trump.”
• Matt Goodwin [32:46]:
  “Reform in the national polls is now on 34%... a political revolution... two biggest reasons for voting for Farage: stop illegal migration, and dramatically lower legal migration.”
• Matt Goodwin [42:38]:
  “In every single year since 1997... more immigration into the UK than in the entire period from the Anglo Saxons to WW2.”
• Matt Goodwin [44:57]:
  “Keir Starmer... said, ‘I prefer Davos to Westminster.’ This is a guy who prefers global elites to his own people.”
• Matt Goodwin [48:28]:
  “We have a government imposing a new definition of Islamophobia... Americans recognize it. You’ve got the First Amendment. We do not.”

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KEY TAKEAWAYS

• Democrats’ Abundance Movement is an awkward synthesis of pro-growth, Silicon Valley values, seeking to recapture the economic populist mantle lost to MAGA—yet risks alienating both the anti-corporate left and skeptical working-class voters.
• MAGA’s transformation of GOP from a Chamber of Commerce-Koch party to a blue-collar, populist platform leaves pro-business donors shopping for a new political home.
• In the UK, Nigel Farage and Reform channel anger over mass (legal and illegal) migration, elite betrayal, and lost national sovereignty, marking a seismic political shift reminiscent of America’s MAGA moment.
• Elites’ loss of credibility and growing anger among working-class voters (of all races) underscores realignment in both the US and UK.
• The social contract and national identity are under strain, as economic hardship, unchecked immigration, and perceived suppression of free speech fuel populist backlash.

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SEGMENT TIMESTAMPS

• 00:55 – 13:20: US discussion—Abundance Movement, Democratic Party realignment, Silicon Valley influence (Weigel)
• 13:20 – 26:44: MAGA’s appeal to workers, Democrats’ policy struggles, cost-of-living argument (Weigel)
• 31:17 – 50:24: UK unrest: Farage’s Reform surge, immigration as political engine, mass protest, loss of liberty, social contract under siege (Goodwin)
• 42:38 + 44:57: Landmark statistics and Starmer/Davos anecdote (Goodwin)

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This episode offers a vivid snapshot of populist realignment on both sides of the Atlantic—detailing shifting voter allegiances, the search for new political narratives, and the rising anger at perceived elite indifference to national and working-class interests.

Transcript

[Steve Bannon]

This is the primal scream of a dying regime. Pray for our enemies because we're going medieval on these people. I got a free shot. All these networks lying about the people. The people have had a belly full of it. I know you don't like hearing that. I know you try to do everything in the world to stop that, but you're not going to stop it. It's going to happen.

[Dave Weigel]

And where do people like that go to share the big lie? MAGA MEDIA I wish in my soul, I wish that any of these people had a conscience.

[Steve Bannon]

Ask yourself, what is my task and what is my purpose? If that answer is to save my country, this country will be saved. War Room here's your host, Stephen K. Bannock.

[Show Host / Interviewer]

Welcome Ben Harnwell, here at the helm on Steve Bannon's War Room. Perhaps you might have noticed talk within Democratic quarters of the abundance movement, but didn't quite know what it represented, how it has emerged in the Democratic stream and what it's trying to achieve. Well, they had their major first launch of Abundance 20255 a couple of weeks ago and we have Dave Weigel here from Semaphore, one of the great daily newsletters that comes out of dci. I subscribe to. I read it all the time. Dave, thanks for coming on the show. You were there. Just start off with what is the abundance movement?

[Dave Weigel]

It is a good question because it is defined by both itself and its enemies as different things. So the simplest political way to say this is that there are Democrats in blue states, mostly California, New York, who have realized that the environmental movement, the degrowth movement, the don't build anything in my backyard movement have made it impossible to build cheap housing and cheap energy for people. And Democrats in those states really got this abundance movement going saying the future that we want is a sci fi future where you can achieve anything cheaply. You can live in comfortable places, you can see green things outside your house. Even if somebody else would like a bigger house that blocks out your plot. Let's build more condos and fewer parking lots. That's how this started. And it had a lot of buy in from Silicon Valley Democrats who smaller wing of the party than they used to be. It has taken on more of a role in the debate of what Democrats stand for because it is a pro growth movement with donors who are not very left wing and there's a sense the party and if it wants to compete, become a big majority again. It needs those people. It can't kick them out in the way the Biden administration did with a very strong regulatory regime that moved Silicon Valley, move those people out of the party.

[Show Host / Interviewer]

Let's break this down a bit because a couple of the things here emerge from a study of the abundance movement and I very strongly flag this concept up to, to the war room posse to follow this because it's not going to be something that's going to go away straight away. And it's an attempt to pitch a populist narrative within the democratic sphere as a parallel opposite to maga. But I'm not in Charlotte. No, I'm not entirely sure it's actually going to land for a number of reasons. But let's talk about what it is you defined it as to what it's against and what it's for. Some of the things that self consciously it's against would be the degrowth movement. Right?

[Dave Weigel]

Yes, degrowth movement. Well, degrowth is a pretty long lived. That's a newer brand for it, but a very long lived left wing idea that has its roots in Malthusianism, its roots more recently in Paul Ehrlich and anti human population growth. The idea that we have a fragile planet, humans are a burden on the planet and we should be building slowly, we should not be getting richer. The abundance movement is whatever other politics it has, Capitalist believes in growth, believes that human flourishing is important. And it's very worried that the degrowthers in the Democratic coalition are hindering that. And you've seen this in Europe too, the green wing of red green coalitions, anti nuclear, anti growth. That makes things more expensive. And this has become a liability for every social democratic party in a Western nation. The worry that the Democratic strategists have is when they lose power, they lose it to populist conservatives who are both pro growth economically and anti immigration. And so the abundance movement wants more immigration, more housing, more energy, just more of everything in a way that does change a country. It is in a much more pluralist dynamic, less nationalist way. But they believe that that's the only way you can win. If, if so social Democratic parties are anti growth. If conservatives are offering you more flourishing, more wealth, more, more space, and they're offering you less, they're going to lose. That's the, that's the concern at the heart of all this.

[Show Host / Interviewer]

Well, that's one of the things that abundance is against the degrowth movement. Another thing would be woke, right? Yes, the woke infiltration. Right. Do you think being so upfront about its opposition to work is trying to become a vehicle to the anti AOC tendency in the Democrats.

[Dave Weigel]

A little bit. Although there's been a debate in this country over whether abundance is set against, let's say, populism in the Democratic Party. And there's some overlap. There's some overlap when it comes to. We can define wokeness pretty broadly when it comes to the idea that there should be very wide open gender identity laws, that it should be very easy to become a guest worker or a citizen if you're not born in the country. Those are not antagonistic to the abundance movement. Their antagonists are more both degrowthers and the populace who say no for human flourishing. What we need is an aggressive government that breaks up big companies. Abundance doesn't really have a problem with large corporations with Amazon existing, with media mergers even existing. The other kind of Lina Khan, Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren tendency in the party is to say, no, we're going to grow, but we're going to grow by having the government break up mega corporations, create more competition, create more diversity in media, but diversity in everything. We'll have more products because we're going to have more companies and fewer monopolies. That's been the debate, the woke discussion. I like the way you're asking these questions because the Democratic Party is ping ponging between all these debates. The woke discussion is actually a lot quieter inside the party. They're not having a press conference or a three day summit saying we need to stop saying woke things, we need to get serious about how or rethink how we talk about gender and access to women's spaces, men's spaces. That is a different debate happening. And part of the idea here is a popular Democratic Party can carry along some of these pluralist ideas that are less popular for the rest of the electorate. Okay, you can have a few 20%, 30% proposals. If people say I'm voting for the Democrats and they made me richer, then they won't care so much if there's an abortion policy or gender policy they disagree with. That is part of this. That's where Democrats have been coming from when asked how they're going to win again in the future. It is, how do we come in populist party? How do we tell voters that when conservatives talk about social issues, they're trying to loot you. They're trying to redistribute taxes upwards to billionaires and away from you. That's what they're trying to solve for here in abundance is let's have a popular agenda so the rest of the progressive agenda can be packaged in with the Democratic portfolio.

[Show Host / Interviewer]

Okay, so now We've really got I think got a home in on what I think's going on here. If this is the, if this is the Democrats attempt to muscle in on an alternative to the AOC Bernie Sanders type or Mandami type of populism, it's in promising abundance basically what you want at prices you can afford via free market capitalism. You think well hang on, that's not really, that's not really in the Democrats DNA is it? This is, this is really Coke brothers philosophy that's being, you know you can almost see what's happened because a lot of the people are financially backing this abundance movement have been driven out of MAGA by people like Steve Bannon, right. They've been pushed out, they've got all this money, right? Okay. So now we have all this money that we're trying to buy influence with. No one in MAGA wants to, to take our phone calls. What should we do with it? So they put that out and you know you've got the consultants, you've got the fundraisers and the whole, these guys, you know, if you, if you are impressed in nature that a shark can, can smell a trace of blood in the ocean from three miles, that's nothing compared to these guys when it comes to getting, getting benefactors money. So they're basically the shtick is don't worry which, which one died? It was Charles Koch I think. No, Charles Cox, the one who's still alive. David Coke. Yeah, who died. So you know that basically they gravitate, gravitized grab they have, they're gravitizing towards the, the Koch brothers largess saying don't worry if you didn't get this to land in, in the new gop, we'll sell it for you in the Democrat ambit instead. Because that's what the shtick of this is really. You know that their idea, that the Koch brothers idea of populism is very much this that you know the free market will solve all your ills. You want, you want more houses, we'll build more houses for you. We know. And how do you get to more houses where you need, you need permitting, you need to have easy access to permitting. You need to cut back on bureaucracy. So it's all, it's all in the Koch brothers libertarian agenda to some extent repackaged as an alternative. The only thing that is missing are people like Gavin Newsom or the only thing he was missing were proponents within the Democratic Party that'd be prepared to use this as a platform to try to do a Full frontal on the AOC momentum. How does that analysis strike you?

[Dave Weigel]

Well, the analysis about the Koch brothers is obviously correct. The stand together which is the big Koch donor trust, there's a few Koch donor trusts, but that's one of the more active political ones. That was one of the sponsors at the conference. There were people from that organization or at the conference and parts of the conference were off the record to the press. The ones about permitting reform and some of what you were just talking about were among those. But when you brought up Gavin Newsom, this is the part of the abundance project that Democrats are most comfortable with is Newsom has been signing off on these reforms of California's 1970s Environmental laws which were used by really everybody, energy companies, homeowners associations to make it much harder to buy, to build housing and to build transportation. I'm not sure how familiar everyone watching the war room is with California's high speed rail project, but it was a joke. It was an, it was an effort to build the sort of thing that not hard to build in the European country, not to build in Japan. In California, environmental rules and some of this is housing rules that are not related to the environment made it impossible to build quickly at all really a high speed rail system. And that is one of the problems that these Democrats are looking at is our current coalition, this is them thinking has so many environmentalists in it that do not want to build quickly and so many people who do not want change. We need to bring more people into the movement that can fund pro building. In my backyard, yes. In my backyard politics. And so yes that does mean alliances with the Kochs that the rest of it, the rest of it on criminal justice reform which, which the Koch support, mass immigration with the Koch support. They're very comfortable in that coalition. They are not comfortable in maga. They do not have the same open door to the Trump administration that they, that they would have had and let's say a Mitt Romney administration. That's totally correct. But what they want from the Democrats is more permitting reform, making it easier to build things quickly. And they do see an open door in the Democratic Party that, that, that wants that because Democrats look at that high speed rail, they look at B4 years of Biden shoving money out the door. Some of it didn't get spent because of how slow environmental, environmentally conscious I suppose building is in this country. They want to break that down. That'll mean some things the Kochs want. It'll mean a lot of things that the progressive left wants.

[Show Host / Interviewer]

We're going to drill down on this in just a couple of minutes. Dave. Just stand by When Inflation Jumps when you hear the national Debt is over $37 trillion, do you ever think maybe now would be a good time to buy some gold? Whether as a hedge against inflation, peace of mind during global instability, or just for sensible diversification, Birch Gold Group believes every American should own physical gold and so they created something special until September 30th. If you're a first time gold buyer, Birchgold is offering a rebate of up to $10,000 in free metals on qualifying purchases. To claim eligibility and start the process, request an info kit now. Just text Bannon to 989-898/ Birch Gold can help you roll an existing IRA or 401k into an IRA in gold and you are still eligible for that rebate in free metals of up to $10,000. Birch Gold is the only precious metals company we at the War Room Trust, as do tens of thousands of their customers. 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Because if you think about it, what MAGA has done is basically kicked out. It kicked out all the Chamber of Commerce influence or tried to. Hopefully that's what the movement wants in order to focus on the well being of the regular blue collar worker. And the Democrats still to this day don't know how to deal with that because they're supposed to be the part historically, right. They shtick the Democrats shtick was that they're the party of the working guy. I published on GET a couple of days ago a graph which suggests that since 1980 the median average male American worker saw a 10% increase in real terms since 1980, whereas the US economy grew by 260%. So those gains are being made, those productive gains are being made in America. It's just that they're not filtering down to the average guy. That really is the engine, I think for the phenomenon that is MAGA and the phenomenon that is Donald Trump. And the Democrats don't know how to handle it. So what they're trying to do is if the GOP doesn't want the Chamber of Commerce money, if it doesn't want the Koch brothers money, we'll, we'll openly take that ourselves. We'll allow our influence to be bought and we'll just pitch it out there as the new Democratic fodder. I don't know how far that's actually going to go. Just held together with anti maga, anti Trump type glue to hold it together. We're going to find out. And I think, David, and this is what I want to ask you. As this pans out, you're going to see the Democrat Party now sort of move, as we were saying just earlier on in the show, into these two factions. Presumably they're going to be headed by Gavin Newsoman on one side. And we heard, we saw, we saw today that AOC is, is, is considering like, like, like we didn't know this already, but the headlines are out that the AOC is considering throwing her hat in the ring for 2028. And those are the two, I think rival dynamics within the Democrats. But I don't see the abundance thing really capturing the Democrats heart and mind in the way that MAGA has captured Republicans.

[Dave Weigel]

No, it's complicated in a few ways. We don't want to bore people with all of them. There is a populist side of the Democratic Party. For example, I was talking about the section of the party that had a very aggressive ftc, Lina Khan ideas that I think Steve agreed with when it came to breaking up corporate power. Not everyone in the administration is interested in doing that. And so there's a space for Democrats there to be the party that is more anti corporate power. There's a space for them to be the party that invests in manufacturing. They did that under Biden. Their problems have a lot more in terms of reaching working class voters. If you ask labor unions why their rank and file move towards Trump, even though Joe Biden was spending a lot of money on manufacturing, there were two reasons. One, Trump was running on doing the same thing. Two, culturally they were much more akin to Trump. They were not. And when I say culture, I'm not saying these are issues disconnected from the economy. That includes Democrats are interested in affirmative action, in giving. This was part of the Biden policy, giving kind of the first bite at big projects to minority owned businesses. That slows things down. That also says to certain types of workers, well, you're going to have to work a little bit harder if you want this or you're not going to get that contract. A pluralist, multiracial Democratic Party that has those principles and says that you need to consider race and other factors before you put some bricks down. They're going to have some problems keeping their coalition together. They held it For a very long time Barack Obama did much actually a little bit worse with white voters but better with non white voters. The thing that's really flummox Democrats is that they have those policies and they're losing ground with non white working class voters. But that's been more the problem. The party does not get in power and like the Bill Clinton Democrats sign new trade deals. That's not what Joe Biden did. It's not asking for it. It's been a bit more aggressive in re on shoring manufacturing and around chips and everything else it can. But who is, who is getting the benefits and how fast are they going out? Yes, MAGA has a much better answer on that which is just shove the money out and let people compete for it and don't have any racial preferences that is. But that, that's been I think the secret sauce getting a lot of people who wouldn't have voted Republican 20 years ago and you know, wouldn't vote Republican if the party turned around was Paul Ryan's party again. They've been much more akin to vote for MAGA Republicans because of that.

[Show Host / Interviewer]

David, I just want to read something to you from your recent article on this. And we only got like a couple of minutes left on, on the show for this. This is really for, for the Republican establishment that, that listens to this show. You wrote here that the worry is that Democrats will miss a chance to run as a credible low cost, low cost pro growth party at a time when Republicans might be vulnerable to that message. Well, it's certainly true that Trump didn't win on either elect or any of his three elections. He didn't win winning on a really as a low cost grow pro growth mandate. He ran as make America great again mandate pretty explicitly there. But just tell me, just in like two minutes tell me why you think that the Republicans might be vulnerable to this message right now.

[Dave Weigel]

Well, because costs aren't down and this is the one thing that Democrats are fairly unified on. I'd say they want more money going out the door for health care and they're pointing out that costs are not down since January. And there's a little bit of cope going on with Democrats here. Their problems are not all solved if people decide that inflation's not over and it's the Republicans fault for not ending it. But that's the opening that the abundance movement sees is that and part of this conference people looked at polling on which issues polled the best or which issues were top of mind for voters. Costs, not just housing, but costs of groceries, those sorts of things. They were high up. It was just that voters didn't say the way to fix that is abundance. The way to fix that is building more housing. They were working through how does our agenda fit into the being the party of low cost. Because voters don't think we are. But that's the opening they see. It's as simple. It's as simple as that. The debate over tariffs, which the Trump administration is very happy to use as a tool of international negotiation, that, that would have been a Democratic policy. It frankly was for more than a century in the old Democratic Party. The current more, more Silicon Valley oriented Democratic Party is not anti tariff, but anti the way Trump is using it. And in the short term, hoping, I should say, not that they're hoping for pain, but they are a little bit hoping that people look at prices and say this is Donald Trump's fault, he didn't lower them. I'm gonna vote for a Democrat next time. Or maybe I voted for Trump and I'm gonna stay home. That's the opening. And when they look at, when people look at Democrats, they want them to look at them in November next year and say, well, yeah, inflation happened under, under Biden, but Trump didn't fix it, so I'm fine voting for a Democrat again.

[Show Host / Interviewer]

So in a sense it's James Carville's famous dictum, it's the economy, stupid. That's still no, it's still there, isn't it? Right. And whether whether the, the MAGA phenomenon succeeds in the next 50 years or whether it doesn't really depends on, on whether this administration get to grips with the cost of living because there's all to play for. On that. That's not, that's not, that's not your words. You know, I don't, I wouldn't want to into your mouth, but that, but that's, you know, if the people who are running this movement in political office really want to see it continue, that's what they're going to have to do. They're going to have to get to grips with this cost of living issue because that's what, that's that as you point out, the populist element here of what this abundance movement is seeking for is homing in on that day to day difficulty that ordinary Americans feel. David Weigel, thank you for coming on the show. Where do people go to catch up with you on social media?

[Dave Weigel]

Well, semaphore.com is where all the articles appear and I'm just aveweigle on x on Blue sky, on everything else and every other article get posted on those anyway. So, yeah, thank you for the time. It's a really good conversation, Dave.

[Show Host / Interviewer]

Very, very grateful for you to come on. And please do come back again and give us further updates as this moves forward. Folks, stay tuned. We'll be back in two short minutes with Matt Goodwin.

[Steve Bannon]

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[Dave Weigel]

Today, kill America's voice family.

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[Show Host / Interviewer]

No.

[Matt Goodwin]

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[Show Host / Interviewer]

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[Steve Bannon]

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[Show Host / Interviewer]

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[Dave Weigel]

Download the Getter app now.

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[Dave Weigel]

Welcome back.

[Show Host / Interviewer]

Well, my next guest, Matt Goodwin will be known to many people here on on the War Room. A great social commentator on GB News, also former academic Matt Goodwood. Thanks for coming on the show. You're covering things that are taking place in the UK right now like nobody else. Specifically, you mentioned in an article a couple of weeks ago on your substack that you quoted Alexis de Tocqueville. Right. And you said how revolutions aren't something instantaneous. They're just a buildup of things that manifest themselves. And you highlight three things that you suggest are currently working in the background of the UK Right now, the protests against the invasion, the illegal Third World invasion, the operation raised the colors, which is putting up the St. George's flag spontaneously. This is a real sort of grassroots movement of people doing this spontaneously without any kind of organizational structure. And the third thing that you mentioned that is going to fundamentally transform the political fabric of the UK Is the reality now of reform uk let's start with that one and then work backwards because you were at the Reforms Party conference last week, which in U.S. terms, is the annual convention, let's put it like that. Tell me, what was your impression there about the momentum of how things are building up?

[Matt Goodwin]

Well, what we're witnessing in the United Kingdom, in the UK Is a political revolution. Reform in the national polls is now on 34% of the national vote. The Labour government, the incumbent government, a socialist government, is all the way back on 16%, as are the mainstream Conservatives, the sort of old Mitt Romney Republicans, if you like. So, look, we're seeing something in British politics we'd never seen before. The two biggest reasons why people say they're planning to vote for Nigel Farage and reform. Number one, stop the illegal migration invasion. More than 180,000 people have entered our country illegally since 2018. Number two, dramatically lower legal migration. We've now seen around 5 million people enter the UK in the last five years. Most of those, over 80% of those have come from outside of European western nations, from Uzbekistan, Nigeria, Pakistan, India, Eritrea. I could go on. So, look, there's a real feeling here in the UK that actually among many people, they feel they're losing their country. They feel that the country's becoming unrecognizable and they want this radical change which Reform and Nigel Farage are offering them.

[Show Host / Interviewer]

Tell me about the. The atmosphere, though, because you were there in the room. I want to know something about the momentum. How do people feel about what's happening, about what the syphologists are picking up in the polls? Are they feeling it?

[Matt Goodwin]

Well, let me tell you, I've been going to events with Nigel Farage for over 15 years, okay? And I remember the little ones where there were two dozen people in the village hall in the middle of nowhere. Okay? Now, what happened in Birmingham a couple of weeks ago were thousands of people coming into what is the UK Second city to not just talk about why this party's doing so well, but to talk about what it's going to do in government. Now, this is a conversation Nigel Farage isn't used to having. Okay? This is like where America was, I think in 2015, this is, you know, Donald Trump coming down the escalator, everybody thinking, well, this is never going to happen. But Trump's team saying, hey, this is going to happen and we need to plan for what we're going to do in government. We are basically there. That's the sort of loose analogy. So people at the conference saying, okay, how are you going to leave all of these international courts and conventions that are stopping us from protecting our own border? How are you going to root out WOKE ideology from the public institutions? I spoke at a fringe event laying out what I think is the concrete plan we need to dramatically lower migration and take control of the institutions. These are the conversations people are now having in and around the Reform Party. And of course, since the conference, those conversations have been sped up by the defection of a major, major Conservative politician. Danny Krueger mp, a very committed Conservative, a cultural social conservative, very opposed to WOKE ideology, very supportive of the Christian Foundation's of our country. He's now left to join reform and Nigel Farage has put him in charge of preparing for the next reform government. In other words, the party now has a politician, a former mainstream politician, if you like. He's seen the establishment, he's seen how the system works. And Nigel Farage has said, look, you are the guy now who is going to really prepare this party for, for government. So everything here is moving at 1,000 miles an hour. Somebody said to me in Birmingham, it's like building an airplane while you're flying the plane. And that is how it feels. The energy is through the roof, the enthusiasm is through the roof, because the British and the English people are saying, by raising those flags, by protesting on the streets, by planning to vote for reform, what they're saying is enough is enough. They've had enough of this dreary status quo.

[Show Host / Interviewer]

I just want to add a footnote to what you're saying there about Danny Kruger. He. Correct me if I'm wrong, Matt, but I think he was the campaign manager for Robert Jenrick, right, who lost in the leadership challenge to Kemi Badenoch, but did very much offer in his candidature an alternative direction for the Tory Party, one which isn't basically vertical descent, which it's pursuing right now. Now, anyone who knows the UK well will realize that, say, 10, 15 years ago. I just want to pivot slightly from reform to something else that's taken place in the UK over the last few days. If you didn't mention the name Tommy Robinson, 10, 15 years ago, that was a name that you really couldn't mention in polite society because of the connection, the perception, the perception of the connection to thuggery, to right wing thuggery and perhaps even violence, what we saw at the United Kingdom rally in London over the weekend. However, now there are various estimates to how many people there that vary between a million and 3 million. But looking at the video footage, Matt, it's absolutely striking to me that everyone I saw on that march was basically that there was no, there were no skinhead haircuts. Let me put it like that. These are just ordinary working class Brits who have been dispossessed and feel that they have been dispossessed. And they're marching in protest at an event organized by someone, I repeat, you could not have mentioned his name 10, 15 years ago. So this is obviously the Overton Window in movement, right in, in real time. Tell me about your reaction there on the ground about that. How, how do you perceive the conversation is moving right now?

[Matt Goodwin]

Well, this was one of the most significant public protests in British history. Just looking at the sheer numbers of people who were involved. Of course, Elon Musk was somebody else who spoke at that event via a live stream, if you like. And what all of those people are saying loud and clear is that they've had enough of mass uncontrolled immigration, they've had enough of broken borders, they've had enough of two tier justice whereby minorities are treated more favorably than the British majority. And they would like the taxpaying, law abiding, hardworking citizens of this country to be put first. The Roman statesman Cicero said it best. The first duty of every state is to look after its own people. And when it doesn't do that, the state will collapse. And what we're witnessing here in the UK is the state refusing to adhere to that first duty that it is supposed to pursue. So the protests were unquestionably very significant. Where that energy goes, I think personally at the ballot box, it will go only in one direction, which is, I think, inevitably behind reform, because it's the only viable alternative to the status quo. But it has without doubt made Westminster sit up and take notice of the people. What we're seeing in some senses over the last decade in British politics, through the vote for Brexit, through the rise of reform, now through these protests and through the raising of the flag, is a reassertion of popular sovereignty. People saying, actually the true source of power in our society, the true source of legitimacy, the true source of authority, is not elites in Davos. It's not elites in Brussels and Strasbourg or even Westminster. The true source of power in politics is the people. It is the people who ultimately are the source of sovereignty, authority and legitimacy. And that is what is coming into the system. So I view all of this really as. As being a big correction, a correction to a system which has lost touch with the people with taxpaying citizens.

[Show Host / Interviewer]

These directional changes that you're highlighting, that you've been highlighting for a long time, very effectively, you'd agree with me that the motor of this is the invasion, right? This is really the motor that is driving this change in politics that will manifest itself in electoral policy.

[Matt Goodwin]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Tony Blair famously said when he came to power in 1997, it's education, education, education. Well, listen to me, I'm telling you from the UK on the ground, the real source of people's concern is immigration, immigration, immigration, front and center to all of this. We've lost control of the borders. We don't know who's coming into the country. The nation is being transformed at a historically unprecedented state. Right, let me just give you one stat to bring this home to our American viewers, friends and cousins. In every single year since 1997, since Tony Blair came to power, in every single year, there has been more immigration into these islands than there was during the entire period between the Anglo Saxons in the fifth century and the end of the Second World War. In other words, over 1500 years, there was less immigration into this country than there was in every single year since 1997. That is why people are protesting.

[Show Host / Interviewer]

Matt, would you just repeat that statistic?

[Matt Goodwin]

Yeah, it's an astonishing statistic that in every single year since 1997, there has been more immigration into the UK in each of those years than there was over the entire period between the Anglo Saxons in the fifth century and the end of the Second World War. So over 1500 years, there was less immigration onto these islands than there has been in each single year since Tony Blair and the Socialists came to power in 1997.

[Show Host / Interviewer]

That's astonishing. And it is something that you can see on the streets. Right? This is a reality that confronts you. Tell me, just because I know you do have a hard out and you've got to go in just a few moments. Just tell me something, if you wouldn't mind. How is the sense of anger in the UK right now? Because many people who voted for Brexit and supported Brexit thought that that meant that the national government, having sovereignty returned to Westminster from Brussels, would actually be able to do Something about this problem and in fact, nothing has been done at all. The problem is getting worse. Tell me something about the anger that you're feeling on the streets that post Brexit. One of the most important reasons for people voting to come out of the European Union, which hasn't been easy for the uk, but one of the most promised advantages of that has not been followed through on.

[Matt Goodwin]

No, I mean, there is palpable anger because the people are being betrayed. They were betrayed by the Conservative Party, the Chinos, the Conservatives, in name only. They were betrayed by Boris Johnson, they were betrayed by the governments that followed that vote for Brexit, who did the very opposite of what the people asked for. They asked for lower overall numbers of migrants, they asked for control over their borders. They asked to be returned to become a self governing, independent nation. Their leaders did the opposite of those things. Boris Johnson put mass immigration on steroids. Our Labour socialist Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, is now selling off the rights of our fishermen, the rights of our workers to the European Union, to India, signing up to trade deals that undermine the working class. That's why reform is doing so well in this country, is why people are so frustrated, because we have a ruling class in this country that no longer understands this country or even likes this country. Keir Starmer, our socialist Prime Minister, said it best himself. He said, I prefer Davos to Westminster. This is a guy who prefers hanging around with global elites than his own people, than the British people, the English people. And I think that is what is running through a lot of this. A lot of voters feel that they're being pushed out of the system. They're not in the national conversation. They're being looked down on a bit like Trump voters were many years ago. And they are tired of having this experiment, which is what it is. It's a radical extreme experiment of mass migration, hyper globalism being imposed on them from above. And they're saying, look, who voted for this? Who voted for this? Nobody in this country voted for this. It's absolutely bonkers. So I'm worried that if we do not regain control, then actually we are going to enter into potentially the collapse of the social contract in this country. You know, the relationship between the voters and politicians will be severed because voters will rightly conclude that the people they elected to look after them are no longer prioritizing their interests. And as Cicero said, when that happens in a state, when you erode the social contract from within, you become much more vulnerable to invasions from without to external actors who seek to Exploit that weakness. And I think that is a very apt description of where the UK is today.

[Show Host / Interviewer]

Matt, just give me two minutes and then bounce. Right, give me two minutes. On this point, you're talking about the dissolution of the social fabric in the uk. Well, one of the things that's always held the country together quite reasonably is the fact that we always considered ourselves in the UK to have an impartial, independent judiciary, which is really absolutely necessary to maintain the, the rest of the political social state fabric from corruption. Two minutes. Right, and then bounce. Tell me about what the reaction was to the 30 month sentence for Lucy Connolly, who said. Who published a very ill advised tweet, but perfectly within the acceptability of free speech.

[Matt Goodwin]

Look, what is it that historically defined Great Britain? It was individual liberty, it was free speech, it was free expression. The historian McCawley said it best when he said the history of England is the history of liberty. Now, who in Westminster today, which politicians believe that? Because what we're living through in the UK is a sustained assault on our free speech. Keir Starmer, the socialist Prime Minister of these islands, just met with President Trump and he said in front of President Trump during that second state visit, historic state visit, no president has had that before. Keir Starmer said, we have always had free speech in the uk. Everybody on these islands laughed when he said that, because in the very same week, a stage 4 cancer patient was visited at home by police, was told by police officers in her own living room, in her own home to apologize for what she had posted on Facebook. And if she didn't apologize, they would haul her off to the local police station. Lucy Connolly, who you mentioned, was sent to prison for the best part of three years because of what she wrote on social media in the privacy of her own home. We have a socialist government imposing a new definition of Islamophobia on our public institutions that will basically control what we can and cannot say about Islam. We have these Orwellian things in this country called non crime hate incidents, where if you perceive yourself to have been offended by somebody, you can file a police report against them. On university campuses, on college campuses in the uk, countless conservative and gender, gender critical scholars and students who don't go along with the transgender religion are being persecuted, are being sacked, are being harassed. And at the same time, all of these words like far right and fascist, they're being expanded by a ruling class to basically discredit mainstream opinions they happen to disagree with. I'll give you one example. We have a counterterrorism strategy in this country called prevent, it's now been revealed that they view cultural conservatism, holding culturally conservative views as being an indicator of possible terrorist ideology. That is how the state views people who happen to hold conservative values, beliefs and opinions. So when I see our socialist prime minister saying we don't have a free speech crisis in this country, I think absolutely, yes, we do. And Americans recognize it. You've got the First Amendment. You believe in the importance of free speech. I can tell President Trump is suspicious of what's happening on these islands, as is Vice President J.D. bance. And they are absolutely right to call this out because it is absolutely outrageous. But what we need in this country, and I think what we're going to get, is a government that understands what this country used to be about free speech, individual liberty, equality before the law. And we're not going to have this dogmatic experiment imposed on us, curtailing what we can and cannot say about issues the ruling class would rather we not talk about.

[Show Host / Interviewer]

Matt, thanks very much for coming on the show. Steve Bannon loves your analysis, as do I. His substack is mattgoodwin.org and you can find can find him on getter@goodwinmj. That's on on Twitter, excuse me, on Twitter on x Goodwin@goodwinmj substack Matt Goodwin. That's all we have time for today. Thanks very much for tuning in. I'll be back at the same time next week. Simply remains for me to thank Will and his great team at Real America's Voice for putting this show together. And of course Victoria, Frankie Santo, who's put in a lot of time over the course of the past week to put this show together. And our producer, of course, the ever present Cameron Wallace. I'll be back next week. Take care for now and God bless.

[Steve Bannon]

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