WarRoom Battleground EP 897: China’s Grip Over UK Political Class Exposed

Summary

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Bannon’s War Room Battleground EP 897: China’s Grip Over UK Political Class Exposed

Date: November 22, 2025
Host: WarRoom.org (primarily Ben Hanwell at helm)
Main Guests:

• Joseph Robertson (UK political analyst, Substack writer)
• Philip Gaspar (AfD parliamentary analyst, Germany)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the mounting evidence of the Chinese Communist Party’s (CCP) infiltration and influence campaigns within the UK’s political class, as detailed in recent Times of London reporting and earlier analyses by Joseph Robertson. The conversation extends to compare Western and Chinese strategic thinking, governmental complicity, and moves into a parallel discussion about long-term international "managed states" through an interview with Philip Gaspar regarding Bosnia and Herzegovina’s protectorate status—and projections for Ukraine.

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1. UK Political Class: Chinese Influence Exposed (00:54-11:19)

Key Discussion Points

• New Revelations, Old News (02:19)

  • Joseph Robertson notes CCP infiltration is hardly a surprise to those tracking UK politics.
  • The Chinese modus operandi is long-term “amelioration”: seeding influence, shifting sympathies, and embedding actors across all layers of government and civil service—not just harvesting state secrets.
  • Quote:

    "It's all about manpower and no one does it better than the Chinese when it comes to actually...infiltrating, but also people on the side...across Europe, I would say." (Joseph Robertson, 02:19)

• Thousands of Approaches: Strategy and Tactics (03:42-07:09)

  • Times of London documents “thousands of approaches” to the UK political class by CCP-linked operatives—more than casual diplomatic contact.
  • Methods: LinkedIn, email outreach, offering lucrative opportunities or low-level information exchange to build relationships and slowly compromise actors.
  • Notable Quote:

    "They want to build relations of trust. You get little bits of gossip in exchange for cash in envelopes...because of course once you do that, you're then compromised...the CCP...has now its tentacles right across already bought and sold political class." (Host/Ben Hanwell, 05:58)

• Subtlety and the Long Game (07:09)

  • The CCP invests across education, tech (citing TikTok/Confucius programs), and even uses AI for sophisticated phishing and manipulation.
  • Emphasized difference: Chinese strategic patience, thinking beyond the immediate—a “100-year plan.”
  • Quote:

    “China never builds for tomorrow, it builds for 100 years from now...How can I weaken my enemy in such a way that he actually becomes my friend and I don't need to fight a war?” (Joseph Robertson, 07:09)

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2. The British Establishment’s Response & Systemic Weakness (09:11-16:54)

Key Discussion Points

• British Government’s Inadequate Response (09:11-11:19)

  • Speaker of the Commons issues a letter—perceived as performative.
  • The UK refuses to designate China as a national security threat, primarily due to entrenched economic interests.
  • Notable quote:

    “You just don't do something like that unless there is someone at the very top of government who is actively working against national interest.” (Joseph Robertson, 09:45)

• Legislative Paralysis and “Manchurian Candidates” (11:19)

  • Inference that individuals at the highest levels may act in China’s interest, intentionally or otherwise.

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3. Mirroring the CCP: Digital ID and Gradualist Transformation (14:56-19:49)

Key Discussion Points

• Creeping Authoritarianism via Digital Policy (14:56)

  • Push for digital IDs in UK likened to China’s social control infrastructure.
  • Key concern: These incremental, “Fabian-style” policies may result in irreversible loss of civil liberties.
  • Notable quote:

    “Digital ID is really the hill we've got to die on. If that comes in...you are going to be living under authoritarian CCP, mirrored regime control.” (Joseph Robertson, 16:54)

• Debate: Digital ID vs. National Citizenship (16:54-19:49)

  • The host plays devil’s advocate, asking whether digital ID could aid in curbing illegal immigration.
  • Robertson rejects this, arguing it will burden citizens and not effectively target those outside the system.

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4. Failures of Prosecution and Systemic Complicity (19:49-24:53)

Key Discussion Points

• Legal Failures: The Case of “the two Christophers” (19:49-24:53)
  • Collapse of high-profile espionage prosecutions (Christopher Cash & Christopher Bowie) attributed to UK’s refusal to designate China a formal threat.
  • Robertson suggests apathy is deliberate, with higher systemic rot at play.
  • Quote:

    “If you take the approach that you are going to prosecute all of these cases equally...then you will find that you are prosecuting many people in the civil service quite rapidly...their interests align in a way that is mirrored and unless we wake up to that fact, we are going to fall into communism.” (Joseph Robertson, 22:12)

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5. Broader European Context: CCP Operations and Western Disunity (24:53-26:17)

Key Discussion Points

• Germany’s CCP Espionage Case (24:53)
  • Reference to AfD’s Maximilian Krah and his aide convicted of CCP-linked espionage.
  • CCP’s method: Compromise aides—“one step removed from principals”—to gain influence, a pattern echoed EU-wide.
  • Notable quote:

    “We don't have a united response to this at all. We don't understand our enemy...We are sleeping heavily at the moment. We've got to wake up and coordinate this response.” (Joseph Robertson, 26:17)

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6. From Protectorates to Quagmires: Bosnia’s “Managed Peace” & Ukraine’s Future (32:01-52:17)

Bosnia as the Perpetual Protectorate (34:07-47:10)

• Discussion with Philip Gaspar:

  • Bosnia & Herzegovina, post-Dayton Agreement, operates as a “managed state” or “protectorate.”
  • The complex arrangement is not a nation in the classical sense, but a stasis held by foreign (EU/US) intervention and a “High Representative” wielding extraordinary power.
  • Gaspar notes a lack of sovereignty and self-sufficiency nearly 30 years on.

• Potential Parallels in Ukraine (37:50–40:18)

  • Gaspar suggests a similar “managed peace” could arise in Ukraine:
    • Peace secured by Western oversight and ongoing injections of support, but little genuine progress or sovereignty.

Sovereignty, High Representatives, and “Rule by Exception” (42:25-51:14)

• The High Representative’s Powers

  • Christian Schmidt (current) likened to a “colonial governor,” able to dismiss elected officials and override parliaments.
  • Example: Removal of Milorad Dodik, the elected Serb leader, for refusing to enact a decree.

• Divergent US/EU Approaches (44:41–47:10)

  • Trump administration’s stance: “Sort it out yourselves” — lessening American investment/oversight.
  • EU (and especially Germany): Continues heavy involvement, financial investment, and support for the existing managed structure.

Memorable Moments and Quotes

• On the enduring nature of these arrangements:

  "We have a joke here in Germany...we know in the end the Germans will pay. When it comes to Europe on a global scale, probably the US but when it comes to Europe...Germany will pay for it." (Philip Gaspar, 47:10)

• On sovereignty and Euro-Atlantic integration:

  “The moment Bosnia becomes a sovereign state, they don’t need the high representative anymore...basically this won’t happen in the near future.” (Philip Gaspar, 50:33)

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7. Connecting the Dots: Takeaways and Warnings

• Western Weakness and Disunity

  • Both guests highlight the West’s lack of long-term planning, reactive policies, and failure to rigorously identify or confront threats (whether the CCP or systemic, constitutional weaknesses revealed in protectorates like Bosnia).

• Authoritarian Drift

  • Both cases demonstrate the dangers of complacency: whether from economic dependency and policy mimicry with China, or perpetual foreign-managed “peace” arrangements that arrest real national development.

• Specter of Irreversible Change

  • Key warning: Once systemic changes are implemented through gradualism or emergency powers (digital ID, foreign “high representatives”), reversing them is immensely difficult.

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Key Segment Timestamps

| Segment Topic | Speaker(s) | Timestamp | |----------------------------------------------|----------------------|------------| | CCP infiltration in UK politics | Joseph Robertson, Ben| 00:54–11:19| | Nature of CCP approaches & long-term agenda | Joseph Robertson | 03:42–07:09| | Subtlety of “low-level” information gathering| Joseph Robertson, Ben| 04:31–05:58| | UK establishment’s “performative” response | Joseph Robertson | 09:11–11:19| | Digital ID & civil liberties, Fabian gradualism| Joseph Robertson | 14:56-16:54| | Collapse of “two Christophers” prosecution | Joseph Robertson | 19:49–22:12| | Germany’s CCP espionage case | Joseph Robertson | 24:53–26:17| | Bosnia’s Protectorate Status | Philip Gaspar | 34:07–42:25| | US–EU approaches to managing Bosnia | Philip Gaspar | 44:41–47:10| | Parallels to Ukraine | Philip Gaspar | 37:50–40:18|

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Notable Quotes

• Joseph Robertson on CCP strategy:

  “China never builds for tomorrow, it builds for 100 years from now…Some of it is intellectual, educational, some of it is financial. But always they're thinking, 100 years from now, how will this look?” (07:09)

• On digital ID and authoritarian drift:

  “If we do get to that point, we will have seen essentially a mirroring...of the CCP's policies. Now, why would a government that's on track to mirror the CCP's policies…why would it halt it? Because, of course, if you copy the Chinese, you get exactly what you want, which is irreversible change.” (16:54)

• Philip Gaspar on Bosnia’s sovereignty:

  “So you have an elected president…by the Serbs and based on a law that was created by the high representative and who cannot be reviewed by any court in the country. That's even a point. So this is not a constitutional democracy. And this rule by exception.” (44:41)

• Ben Hanwell on the West’s investment:

  “This is an investment that is going to go on and on and on and on.” (50:01)

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Guest Social Links

• Joseph Robertson:

  • X (Twitter): @jr_types
  • Instagram: @JosephRobertsonUK
  • Substack: jl_types

• Philip Gaspar:

  • X (Twitter): @Gaspar_Philip

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Summary

This episode of War Room Battleground examines in detail the depth and sophistication of CCP influence operations in the UK, the underwhelming response by British authorities, and the larger pattern of systemic inertia in the West when facing long-term external threats. The discussion draws strong parallels to Bosnia's decades-long protectorate status and the risks of replicating such arrangements in Ukraine—suggesting a recurring Western habit of “managed peace” and performative action rather than assertive self-preservation. The episode ends with pointed warnings about the dangers of copying authoritarian methods, both through digital policies and perpetual international oversight mechanisms.

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Transcript

[A]

This is the primal scream of a dying regime. Pray for our enemies because we're going medieval on these people. I got a free shot. All these networks lying about the people, the people have had a belly full of it. I know you don't like hearing that. I know you try to do everything in the world to stop that, but you're not going to stop it. It's going to happen.

[B]

And where do people like that go.

[A]

To share the big lie?

[B]

MAGA Media I wish in my soul.

[A]

I wish that any of these people had a conscience. Ask yourself, what is my task and what is my purpose? If that answer is to save my country, this country will be saved. War Room here's your host, Stephen K. Band.

[B]

We've made it to the end of the week, Friday 21st of November, Anno Domini 2025. Hanwell here at the helm at Steve Bannon's War Room. Well folks, you might have seen in the press there was this interesting article in the Times of London which had suggested an absolute infiltration of the Westminster political class by the ccp, the Chinese Communist Party. Thanks very much, Denver. That's the article there up on the screen now. So I thought who better to bring on the show then and digest this than Joseph Robertson, who was writing about this very thing somewhat prophetically back in October. October 12, the dragon in Whitehall. There you go. So Joseph, thanks for coming back on the show. Last time you came on a couple of months ago, you were talking about the infiltration of the Labour Party due to the the Fabian Society, this sort of secretive, ancient like 100 years old network sort of placing its crypto communists all over the place. And now we're on a different type of communist infiltration in the Westminster political class. Tell us essentially what the Murdoch press has been covering then in the last few days regarding these apparently thousands of approaches made right across the Parliamentary Westminster.

[C]

Klaus well, thanks for having me, Ben. Yeah, I think the first thing to say is that this isn't new news to anyone who's followed British politics for the last 20 years or so. You'll know that there's a rapid turn towards not just pandering towards China, but also actively pursuing policy that enables China to keep pushing its tentacles further and further into the British establishment. And so this comes as no shock at all to really see that, as you said, what I was already writing about the Dragon in Whitehall reality that China has been pursuing this aggressive agenda of trying to not just necessarily find out secrets. I think they're pretty good at that stuff already. But also to ameliorate people to their way of thinking and actually have active pursuance of the CCP agenda within Whitehall. I think that's the, the most important takeaway from all of this. It's all about manpower and no one does it better than the Chinese when it comes to actually, you know, infiltrating, but also people on the side, you know, they've got people placed throughout all the layers, not just of government but of the civil service and indeed across Europe, I would say. And so what we've got to try and think about is, you know, how bad is it really? Is it, is it actually too far gone?

[B]

Well, look, let's break this down then because what the Times of London is talking about is thousands of, of approaches and that's obviously not a part time occupation for a diplomatic mission, right? This is, this is obviously something that they're taking very seriously. And I cannot help but flag up the fact that the Chinese still want to go ahead and build this super mission, one of their largest embassies anywhere in the world, right in London. And the fear is of course that that is going to be a launch pad for precisely this type of operation. Tell me then a bit about what they've been doing with these and I quote, thousands of approaches right across the UK political class.

[C]

Well, to get to the heart of the matter, but they've essentially been trying to get people to soften to the way they do business, which basically means that they will try and get some low level information from people at a pretty high cost, normally to themselves. They will, they'll offer decent renumeration. Sometimes it will be a job offer, sometimes it will be a sort of, you know, a way of getting someone to work for them directly through an agency or through another means. But the way they approach people generally has seemed to be either via LinkedIn or email, outreach, trying to get people to engage, to give up some sort of information, be that low level, low hanging fruit that isn't necessarily publicly available but won't do any damage at state level. And then they'll offer a shed load of money to these people and slowly, slowly bring them further and further up the chain, which is, you know how these things work. It's always money, that's the incentive. And I don't know if you remember a few years ago there was a case of an MP going for a job with a lobbying company while still in office and they actually recorded footage, I can't remember who took the footage. Now it's one of these sort of investigative journalist stings basically to show how easy it was to get someone who is at quite a senior position in government to, to lobby for you. And if you then apply that by multiplier of thousands with state behind it, you know just how bad it is.

[B]

You mentioned something interesting there about the attempt to be hoovering up low level information. As I understand it, the approach that's quite sort of subtle I think in terms of this infiltration is going, as you say, because there aren't any sort of, there aren't going to be a huge number of major secrets that the CCP isn't already aware of. But the idea of specifically targeting low level information from people who are one step removed from the principles from, from the key players is that they want to build relationships. They want to build relations of trust. You get little bits of gossip in exchange for cash in envelopes and that way, because of course once you do that, you're then compromised, right? And then it's difficult to extricate yourself like any sort of cartel relationship. And then of course that means that the ccp, to use the word that you used before, has now its tentacles right across already bought and sold political class.

[C]

Yeah, well, that's right. And also one thing to remember is that China never builds for tomorrow, it builds for 100 years from now. And that's one of the reasons why the west loses out so often to its adversaries in the bricks. Because all of these countries in the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, Iran, Russia, China itself, they build for long term trajectories. They don't build for the now. Of course they have key targets that maybe they want to get involved in now. Be that, you know, making sure that we seed up as much of our natural resources and energy as possible through to infiltrating our education system on a day to day basis with the Confucius programs. There are very high level targeted attacks on the West. Tick Tock being another example. If you watch Tick Tock in China, it's an incredibly different experience to what you see in the West. In the west it's glorified liberalism. In China it's very much just patriotic posts and fairly harmless kind of stuff. So they have this double warfare going on. Some of it is intellectual, educational, some of it is financial. But always they're thinking, 100 years from now, how will this look? How can I weaken my enemy in such a way that he actually becomes my friend and I don't need to fight a war? They're thinking on a much deeper level than we are. And so when we look at stuff like this, basically it's been going on for a long, long time. It's just that the Internet gives them yet another tool to excavate their efforts, you know, and with the advance of AI, I'm slightly more concerned that people are going to not just be directly brought in, but also going to be regularly hacked with what seems to be videos from a friend, what seems to be an email that completely perfectly copies the style of someone's writing. We're seeing this kind of phishing attack now happening to the political classes, and it will continue to get worse and worse. And of course, it's not just China. You've got Russia doing this stuff as well. And I think we're pretty behind the curve as a nation over here.

[B]

I want to ask you a bit about your article, your substack article. But first, I know that Sir Lindsay Hoyle, the Speaker of the House of Commons, put out a statement wrote to, he wrote to all members of Parliament. Tell me just something about the response to the British establishment to these revelations. It seems to me a little bit performative like that. They know they've been caught with their pants down somewhat. Tell me what the response has been generally, and are you happy with it?

[C]

No, not at all. If I can be blunt, you know, I think the easiest way to say this is that they are pandering still to China with the response simply because they will not designate China as a threat to national security. That's the first thing you have to do when you realize that a hostile foreign power is spying on you. Now, they refuse to do that because they know that our national interests are so entrenched with the Chinese national interests. Look at the matter of Chagos that's happening right now, which perhaps to the Americans won't seem as impactful as it does over here. Chagos is literally the military base if you want to control the Indo region and Africa. That is essentially the kind of main military, not just naval base, but also strategic landing base for planes as well. We're giving that up. We're ceding that to Mauritius, which is essentially a chateau of China. If you look into the geopolitics of it, Mauritius is massively controlled by China. Now, for us to do that means that we have to be a. Not just not caring about our own country, but also actively, in some ways, helping China. You just don't do something like that unless there is someone at the top, the very top of government who is actively working against national interest. Many people have said this at this point, you know, I'm not alone in saying this, but I would go so far as to say without naming names that there are genuine Manchurian candidates at the top of our government.

[B]

I would definitely like you to name names, but probably better. We don't want to throw ever more larger portions of our salaries to Melanie Friends, which would clearly be the response were we to name names. But you know, what you were saying there about the refusal of part of the UK government to officially designate China as a threat to national security as under the National Security Act 2023 is something that you did somewhat prophetically indicate just a couple of months ago in your Substack article. I'm going to come on to that in a moment, but first I just want to give it a quick shout out to two of our sponsors. What if you had the brightest mind in the War Room Delivering critical financial research every month, War Room listeners know Jim Rickards as our wise man. A former CIA, Pentagon and White House advisors with an unmatched grasp of geopolitics and capital markets, Jim predicted Trump's electoral college victory exactly down to the very vote 312 to 226. And now he's issuing a dire warning about a moment that could define Trump's presidency and your financial future. His latest book, MoneyGPT, exposes how AI is setting the stage for financial chaos, bank runs at lightning speed, algorithm driven crashes and even threats to national security. So right now, War Room members will get a free copy of MoneyGPT when they sign up for Strategic Intelligence, Jim's flagship financial newsletter. Time is running out. Go to ricardswarroom.com now to claim your free book. That's Ricards war room.com Ricard's war room all one word R I C K A R D. And if you are a homeowner you need to listen to this. In today's AI and cyber world, scammers are stealing home titles with more ease than ever and your equity is the target. Here's how it works. Criminals forge your signature on one document, use a fake notary stamp, pay a small fee and you're to the county and boom. Your home title has been transferred out of your name. So use promo code steveometitlelock.com to make sure your title is still in your name and you'll also get that free title history report plus a free 14 day trial of their million dollar triple lock protection. That's 24,7 monitoring of your title, urgent alerts to any changes and if fraud should happen, they'll spend up to $1 million to fix it. Go to hometitlelock.com now and use promo code Steve. That's hometitlelock.com promo code Steve. So back to Joseph Robertson. Joseph, in your article there, you absolutely do nail this on the reluctance of the British state to declare China, using the National Security Act 20 as the instrument, the legal instrument, to do this. They refuse to do so. So you think basically the response is performative, it's theatrics, right?

[C]

Pretty much. I mean, if you look at the calls at the moment within the Labour Party, of course, pushed by the Fabian change that I talk about so much, essentially what they're calling for is a system that mirrors the CCP's social control system in China. You've got digital ID being thrust on us. I think once those civil liberties are gone, we will be at the point where we can effectively say that we have communist rule here in this country. If we do get to that point, we will have seen essentially a mirroring, as I said, of the CCP's policies. Now, why would a government that's on track to mirror the CCP's policies, even if it doesn't buy into the Chinese agenda, why would it halt it? Because, of course, if you copy the Chinese, you get exactly what you want, which is irreversible change. And of course, my whole point with Fabianism and what I always talk about when I'm on here and on Twitter, is this thing of gradualism. It's slow change, it's incremental, but it's irreversible very often. And unless you have massive legislative changes, but also massive mindset shifts across the civil service, across government, across policing, across our very fabric, we are not going to be able to contain this. We're not going to be able to stop it, because it's so far ahead. And not only are China trying to take over from outside, I believe they're also trying to take over from within, as I alluded to earlier. And I think digital ID is really the hill we've got to die on. If that comes in. It seems almost nonsensical to say it. When you have bank cards, you have all kinds of digital tracking already on the go. And of course, London is one of the most heavily surveilled cities in the world, if not the most surveilled, it seems odd to say it, but once digital ID comes in and they can track not just where you work and what you earn, but where you move and who you see then you are going to be living under authoritarian ccp, mirrored regime control.

[B]

Can I play devil's advocate on this? And as someone you know, I do have substantial libertarian leanings, so I share your concern with regards to all forms of compulsory identification. But here's to play devil's advocate, given that the uk, the other crisis at the uk, One of the. One of the other existential crisis crises in the UK at the moment is the illegal alien invasion that's been taking place over the last decade. Is it not the case that if everyone was obliged to carry some form of digital ID or any kind of ID on their person, removing, identifying and removing those who are present illegally in the UK would actually be a far easier operation?

[C]

If you don't have a passport, then sure. I mean, you know, the reality is most British adults have a passport, you know, and I'm sure there are a number of people who don't. There are, I know a number of people who don't. But they must carry either a driver's license or a passport, and in the rare number of cases where they don't have either, then perhaps they should. Should have to have a passport. You know, there's nothing wrong with enforcing, holding your credentials as a sovereign national of the British Isles. But I do have a problem with digital ID because it takes away what should be the mandatory document of national citizenship, which is the passport, and it replaces it with a kind of nebulous, more what I consider to be a globalist ID card which transcends borders in some way. I don't think that will be used at all to control the immigrant crisis. In fact, it will be used to obfuscate those who perhaps don't have the right to be here, but still are able to access for some reason, an id. And, you know, that could actually create further tensions down the line. What should be happening is that those who are born here with the right to live here with national citizenship should be issued with a document of national citizenship and shouldn't have to carry a digital ID just to prove that they're not an illegal immigrant. I think that that's, you know, a twisting of the way things should be. Now, do I think that perhaps those who are here without national identity, without citizenship here, perhaps they should have to carry some form of ID identifying the fact that they're not from here. That absolutely should be something to consider, particularly when it comes to employment rights and all that kind of stuff. I mean, it wasn't that long ago we saw, I think, 10 or so illegal immigrants Working carefree on a solar panel farm down in Kent. That was last year, I believe. The reality is that illegal immigrants do get into work in this country and we've got to find a way to stop that. But I don't think digital ID is the solution.

[B]

It's not the solution. I was being devil's advocate here in Italy, where I am right now, it's for decades and decades and decades you are obliged to carry state sanctioned id. The moment you leave your house for whatever purpose, you always have to carry it with you. And Italy has a crisis probably one of along with the UK has a huge crisis. It's the main point, one of the two main points in Europe of people flooding into the country over the med. And the fact that regular Italians carrying their ID are obliged to have it makes no difference whatsoever. They're punished evermore by the state. And of course you get, you find quite, you know, gypsies and illegals who steal cars and have you that they're hardly even stopped by the police now because it's too much paperwork when you stop someone who has no papers. So of irony, of irony of iron is the consequence is that these things always hit those who are law abiding more and that those who are paperless consider ever more invisible. What you really need if you want to solve the migrant crisis, is the government serious about solving it rather than one just looking for performative excuses to pretend to be interested in dealing with it just because it knows that people popular opinion is now getting unmanageable. So you'll have the theatrics but zero interest actually in dealing with it. Look, I know there's a minutes are counting away, we only have a few left. I just wanted to ask you about something because again it was in the Times I had to go but it was very much also in your own piece on substack and. And this is the collapse of the case against the two spies, the two Christophers. I don't know what it is about the UK where the wild spooks seem to carry the name Christopher that, that these do. Christopher Cash. I see there's another Christopher, Christopher Steele, that will obviously be known to American audience what's going on there, but just tell us again you say that this. Again you make the same point that this is down to the fact that the UK refuses to nominate China a threat to national security. But just if you can in 60 seconds, what was the collapse of this case about?

[C]

Well, essentially it was, you know, the fact that they couldn't prosecute them under the correct acts because China is not officially designated as a national security threat, which again is insane. But leaving that point aside, the reality is that there was no appetite to pursue conviction because if there had been, the government would have found a way. And once again, this takes us back to the point that perhaps they don't want further investigation because that's just the tip of the iceberg. Don't forget these were fairly low level recruits to all intents and purposes and of course deny wrongdoing. But if you take the approach that you are going to prosecute all of these cases equally with a measured hand, then you will find that you are prosecuting many people in the civil service quite rapidly. And of course the government doesn't want that because it would unravel exactly what it's trying to achieve. Now, I can't accuse our own national government of being in bed with China, so I won't say that. But I will say that their interests align in a way that is mirrored and unless we wake up to that fact, we are going to fall into communism.

[B]

Well, well, well, on the way on that one. Right. Christopher Cash and Christopher Bowie are the two gentlemen against whom the legal action collapsed. And I have to compliment you on that because you were here talking about this and it's importance a full two months before Times of London came round to it with the revelations that we discussed about the operation, the cultivation operation over thousands of people across Westminster. Look, there is one quick thing I must ask you about because this sort of illustrates here in Europe the fact that we're not dealing with theoretic issues here in Germany. If I quickly may, in the last sort of two minutes of this half of the show in Germany, a very important German politician, Maximilian Krah, AfD politician, former member of Parliament, present member of Parliament, the, the Bundestag. He had an aide who was just been sent to jail for five years. Just. And that was just like a, a month or two ago. So that's the. Just tell us if you will, what that situation was because I think that indicates how serious this is right across continental Europe. Right, right.

[C]

Well, once again, I mean the basic premise is that the CCP is using a one step removed individual from the source of power to try and undermine democratic process and presumably to push policies and to lobby for its own agenda. And of course you can lobby in the office of one of the most powerful politicians without noticing. Then perhaps there's a, again a wider problem because how is the state not responding to this? I'll tell you what I think the real problem is, and across the entire west is that we don't have a united response to this at all. We don't understand our enemy, but also we don't understand how united our enemy is, is against us. This goes into the wider problem of the bricks of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, what the Russians call the multipolar world. It is a reality now. And we know this because we can see Russia, China, Iran and the Shanghai Cooperation Organization talking against the west, trying to block off our access to rare minerals, trying to take over nations that I would call in the middle those in Africa, those in, in, in Western Asia and in other areas where there are key natural resources. And of course, in Western countries as well. They are trying to take over while we sleep, and we are sleeping heavily at the moment. We've got to wake up and coordinate this response against them.

[B]

That's all we have time for today, folks. Stay with us. After the break, we'll be going back to the to the Bundestag and hearing from Philip gasper in the AfD group to talk us to precisely these themes. In the meantime, Joseph Robertson, thank you very much once again for coming on the show, sharing your expert knowledge with us. Where do people go on social media to keep up with your analysis?

[C]

You can follow me on x @jr types and on Instagram at Joseph Robertson UK and of course on substack jl types as well. So wherever you prefer to find me, I will be there.

[B]

Joseph Opperson, Many, many thanks indeed. We'll catch up again with you soon. Stay tuned, folks. Back in two minutes.

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[B]

Welcome back. Well, staying with the AfD theme of today's show, we're going to be talking now to Philip Gaspar, who's a Balkan analyst working at the Bundestrag, the German parliament for the the AfD. And why are we talking to Philip Gaspar today? Because next month, in the middle of December, we are going to be marking, commemorating the 30th anniversary of the the Dayton Accords, which, which marked the end of the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina. And the reason I think this is particularly important, not just because it's the 30th anniversary, though most people have totally forgotten about this, is the fact that right now we're also talking about some kind of US Guaranteed security guarantees for Ukraine and presumably also for Gaza. And I just thought it might be useful to highlight here for the war in Posse, that these things can go on and on and on long after people have forgotten about it. Philip, welcome on to the show. You're a great expert on this. Tell us, why don't you just synthesize very briefly for the war room posse, the current situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina as a protectorate. You've written quite recently, quite eloquently in fact, about the whole situation, that this is effectively a protectorate not capable of standing on its own two feet. And very much is still reliant after 30 years on US and EU support that I think absolutely. You know, the world has moved on. People don't think about it. But this as a viable entity would not continue without America and the European Union. And I'd just like you, if you wouldn't mind, just to outlie what the current situation is there for our audience.

[D]

Yeah, thank you very much for having me on the show. So first of all, as I said, so I'm born and raised in Germany, but my family is from former Yugoslavia, especially from Bosnia to Govina. So my two other brothers were born in Sarajevo. And so the first fact I always try to clarify to don't get me wrong, to let's say foreign people, is there is no such thing as like a Bosnian nation. So the Bosnians do not exist, not legally, not historically, not politically. So Bosnia Segovina is a. It's not a state built on equality of. It's built on equality of three different nations. Three different constitute people that stopped the war together, built a peace agreement signed in Paris, which was at that time made out in Dayton. But then you have those three constituted people that are Bosniaks, not Bosnians, Bosniaks that are predominantly Muslims. They also make the demographic majority. Then you have the Croats, predominantly Catholic, like my, well, like my family. And then you have the Serbs that are predominantly Serbian Orthodox. So these are, and these are not three subgroups or regions. They are the three nations that founded the state Bosnia Herzegovina, after the, this bloody, bloody war, even the most, most cruel and bloody war after the Second World War in the, in the core of Europe that most of the people even today, sometimes even haven't heard about it. But today, now what we have the situation after next month, the 30 years of the Dayton Agreement. People often say Bosnia has to go. And I wouldn't say it's not a failed state, as you said, it's a managed state. So by the last proctorate procterate in Europe. Okay.

[B]

Please, I didn't mean to interrupt you quite so abruptly, but you were just talking. We had up on the screen your article in the Berliner Zeitung outlining this, your thesis. And on this point that you're talking right now, it's clear from your analysis that the state at the moment, the territory, the protectorate, I'll let you choose the word you want to ascribe to it. It's stable and there is no war. And there is, let's call it an imposed peace, right? That is absolutely true, after 30 years. But your writing is clear that this stability would not survive between the three very separate peoples were it not for the continued EU and US support. Is that correct?

[D]

Exactly. So as I try to figure out in my article, it's a managed peace, and thank God Bosnia governor got peace after the bloody war. But it's a managed sustainability. So there's no progress after 40 years. So this dates an agreement was made to stop the war. But as I said, there is peace, but there's no sovereignty. So the state itself is not developing, it's not progressing at all. It's, I think, even the most complicated political system we have, maybe, I wouldn't say in the world, but when it comes to Europe, is definitely like three different presidents, 14 parliaments, two different entities in such a small country. And I think with the most complicated veto rights that, that we have, just to give you some examples of it. But to answer your question, so, yeah, that's the point.

[B]

Do you see any potential for a similar situation emerging in Ukraine?

[D]

It's a good, good question. I'm right at the moment, that is.

[B]

To say, Philip, specifically what I'm asking, and I'm basing this question now on the latest reports of the Trump peace plan in Ukraine, which is the US Will offer security guarantees not only to Ukraine, but also to Europe in the face of Russian aggression, and that will the requirement on Ukraine is to cede even sort of more parts of the Donbas to Russia than that which Russia currently has. What I'm asking specifically is, do you think there's a possibility? Obviously you wouldn't replicate the total situation in the former Yugoslavia in Ukraine. But what I mean to say is is there a potential that you can see where there will be peace, but that peace is only ever going to be guaranteed by US And EU oversight and support?

[D]

Yes, I see the danger of some parallel. So like the Dayton agreement. Now there could be a similar situation in Ukraine so that the war will be stopped, but then you have to separate, as you mentioned, the Crimea or let's say eastern, eastern Ukraine, which then will officially probably be a part still of the Ukraine, but protected with security guarantees from the US or even from Europe or with German soldiers, whatever. So it will stop the war, it will implement peace, but that will be like similar to Bosnia to Govina. There won't be any progress. So actually, basically it will stop the war or break it. But then to answer your question, yes, I see the danger that similar situation we could have with no progress after 30 years, still with the same situation. The so called, not so called the Ukrainians and the Russians on the one side separating one part this small looking even more going towards Russia the other part of European Union. So yeah, definitely, definitely I would call it danger. Some other people probably would call it a chance or, or the solution.

[B]

Yeah, on the war we'll definitely call that a danger. Standby folks. We'll be back with Philip Gaspar in just a quick moment after a quick shout out for one of our sponsors. When inflation jumps when you hear the national Debt is over $37.3 trillion, do you ever think maybe now would be a good time to buy some gold where there's a hedge against inflation, peace of mind during global instability or just for sensible diversification. Birchgold Group believes every American should own physical gold. Birch Gold can help you roll an existing IRA or 401k into an Iraq in gold. Birch Gold is the only precious metals company we at the War Room Trust as do tens of thousands of their customers. So make right now your first time to buy gold. Text Bannon that's B A N O N to 989-898 again that's Bannon to 989898 back to Philip Gaspar. Why don't you just give us a quick word Philip, and explain what the actual structure is right now in Bosnia and Herzegovina where you have this strange creature, this high representative which seems almost like a lord protector in the. In the Cromwellian sense, effectively a dictator which astonishingly enough sits above all the 14 parliaments which you mentioned above the courts, has the free power to annul or ratify laws and dismiss politicians. That the point is, and you very correctly said that there is a potential development in Ukraine, a quagmire that the west is never going to get out of. That might follow the similar situation here in the form of Yugoslavia. Why don't you just say how invested the US and the EU are on a day to day basis via this high representative which I think is. Is Christian Schmidt right now.

[A]

Exactly.

[D]

It's a, it's a German Christian Schmidt, former MPF of the CSU who asked us some people would call it colonizer function. So as you as you mentioned, he can impose any. He's the heart of the colonial structure. I mean you can't even imagine or can make up something like this or a function with the so called bond powers that were established 97 so he has to this bond powers allow him to impose laws by decree maybe doing like this, abolish laws, rewrite legislation, dissolve Parliaments freeze administrative acts. Basically, he is, basically, some make jokes, he's the new Tito in Bosnia Herzegovina, but can change the criminal code. Basically can do everything without asking someone. And as he did this summer with the, with the, in the case of the that time Doric case, when a sovereignty collapsed with the, with the President, President of the Republic of Silpska, which is one of the two identities that we have in Bosnia to go. And I'm not sure if you're familiar with the, with the fact with the case, what happened, what happened there. So I can just explain it shortly if you want.

[B]

So, yeah, as far, as far as I'm aware, President Doddick refused to, to confirm decrees issued by Christian, the high representative. So Schmidt dismissed him. An unelected, effectively European bureaucrat dismissed a president.

[D]

Exactly.

[B]

Who has a mandate, who then appealed and obviously lost the appeal. And then strangely enough, politically, the appeal in political terms went to Washington D.C. where the Trump administration turned around, did something quite surprising and unexpected back in October, if I'm not mistaken, where they actually lifted the sanctions that had been imposed on him. Basically saying, you guys need to sort this self sort this out. Why do you use that platform? Philip, just to explain now the difference in approach between the US and the EU to handling the, the situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

[D]

I will explain, I will answer and explain it shortly just to make it for the viewers once again, because it's so ridiculous, actually it sounds like Franz Kafka. So think about what it means. So you have an elected president, doesn't matter if you like him or not. Elected president at that time, Milada Dodic by the Serbs and based on a law that was created by the high representative and who cannot be reviewed by any court in the country. That's even a point. So this is not a constitutional democracy. And this rule by exception. And because the president didn't want to apply this law, he got removed out of his function. But to answer your question towards the two approaches, I just think that under the new, let's say a new government by Donald Trump, it's just a more realistic approach means, guys, it took you guys, that means the free people of Bosnia to Govina. It took you 40 years. You couldn't handle it. So get your stuff together, talk to each other. We are not anymore putting any money into it or whatever you invest. So sort your things out. Because at the end of the day, you three people have to live together. And so the US they are not, they don't want to remove the function of the high representative. I think they just emphasize that the people down there needs at the end of the day talk to each other and work sort it out by themselves, which is good. But then on other side you have to. Let's call the European approach or even the German approach. I mean German Foreign Minister Vadaful just this week was in Bosnia to Govina and he gave his support once again. He met with Christian Schmidt. He wasn't Sarajevo. He met with Christian Schmidt and said that the high representative place still an important role and is supported strongly by the German government. So if you ask me what's the right approach, it's definitely from the American administration. When you ask me how something will end, we have a joke here in Germany. We have no idea how it will go on, but we know in the end the Germans will pay. When it comes to Europe on a global, in a global, on a global scale, probably the US but it comes to Europe scale and Germany will pay for it.

[B]

That's, that's probably the case in Bosnia and Herzogen with, with regards to Ukraine, I think that everyone is going to be putting their, their hands and I saw something in the press today talking referring to something like over $165 billion, $165 billion are going to be needed immediately to invest in Ukraine. And we know where that sort of money is going to come from. And it can't come from Germany because Germany doesn't have the money right now. I mean, that's the point. I mean, even though Germany has, at Friedrich Metz's specific request, changed its constitutional lockdown on, on its deficit limit in order to fund the war in Ukraine, it's heading into recession. There's the money. The, the money is simply not there. I don't even think Germany is going to be able to go forward with this draft that it's promising to do in order to take the reins from, from the U.S. in Ukraine. So there's clear that Germany doesn't know the powerhouse, the economic powerhouse of the EU doesn't have money for the foreseeable future. Neither for the former Yugoslavia, neither for Ukraine. Look, we've only got a couple of minutes left. Philip, I just want to read you this quote from Valentin Insco, who was the high representative before Christian Schmidt. And he said when he, you know, when he was still in office that we have to wait for the moment that Bosnia Herzegovina is irreversibly on its way to euro Atlantic integration. Then we should shut down the office. That's a pretty blatant maneuver on behalf of an unelected bureaucrat meddling in what ought to be a sovereign decision of a tripartite people. But it's clear that it's not a sovereign nation. It has the stability and the peace that the high representative imposes, but it doesn't have the sovereignty. And that's really the reason, that's really the reason that that binds the U.S. and the E.U. still, as you wrote in your article, almost 30 years after the signing of the Dayton Peace accords, this is the investment that these kind of deals involve. And that's why I'm very grateful that you've come on the show today to highlight this because in the rest of the world, and I know Germany does take a leading role now and it is part of the political debate is which but elsewhere in the eu, certainly not in the United States, no one is talking about Bosnia Herzegovina. Nobody, you know, everyone's sort of still making the contributions to keep the thing going, but it's not on the political radar. And that's the risk.

[D]

Exactly.

[B]

When the United States comes in and says as the, as President Trump has done, will offer the security in order for peace in Ukraine, will offer security guarantees not only to Europe, not only to the UK To Ukraine, as I was saying before, but also to Europe, this is an investment that is going to go on and on and on and on. Just, just Give me just 30 seconds if you wouldn't mind. Philip, what was your reaction to that quote by Valentin Insko?

[D]

So Valentinsko, who is from the, he's from Austria but from Slovenian by, by heritage. I think so. I mean for me it sounds like a typical quote from a foreigner that has absolutely no idea what's going on. And it sounds nice. Of course he said the moment Bosnia becomes a sovereign state, they don't need the high representative anymore. Yeah, of course. So basically this won't happen in the near future. So I think if you want to get rid of this function and really help the people, then don't listen to him, listen to Trump.

[B]

When it becomes a sovereign state for sure. But it's specifically the part that catches me is, is the reference to the euro integration to shepherd it in, shepherd this territory, this protectorate into the European Union. And of course that what that will do is absolutely bind in the other Western European nations into, into a one way, a one way conveyor belt of financing and funding. Philip Gaspar, very, very grateful for you coming on the Warren today to share your expertise. Please, you know, perhaps come back as we near I think what is it December 14, December 15 the actual 30th anniversary with with your most recent observations. But in the meantime, where do people go on social media to keep up with your writing?

[D]

To my ex account Gaspar. Gaspar Philip, Exactly. That's it. That's great that you can find analysis and anything you need. Thanks you for having me on the show.

[B]

Philip, thanks very much for joining us. Thank you to Vittorio Franco who put this together. To Will and his great team in Denver.

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