WarRoom Battleground EP 931: Sir Niall Ferguson, One Of The Greatest Living Historians, Converts And Confesses Jesus Christ

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Bannon's War Room Battleground EP 931

"Sir Niall Ferguson, One Of The Greatest Living Historians, Converts And Confesses Jesus Christ"

Date: January 22, 2026
Host: Steve Bannon (WarRoom.org)
Guests & Contributors: Jenny Holland, Frank Walker

Main Theme & Overview

This episode centers on the remarkable public conversion of Sir Niall Ferguson—highly respected historian—to Christianity, together with his wife, Ayaan Hirsi Ali. The discussion branches into the implications of such conversions in secular Britain, the role of faith in public and family life, the resurgence of Christian identity among young adults, and critical commentary on the political activism of modern church leadership (Catholic and Protestant). The show also examines trends in church growth and decline, debates about religious aesthetics and tradition, and concludes with a discussion on gender, embodiment, and cultural shifts in religious thought.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sir Niall Ferguson's Conversion to Christianity

• Ferguson, formerly an atheist, describes a spiritual and personal awakening:
  • Quotes:
    • "Atheism was not a basis for a meaningful life and certainly not for a happy family life." (00:24)
    • "I was baptized on September 1, 2024, along with my wife, Ayaan Hirsi Ali...and our two sons." (01:32)
  • Motivation: Initial church attendance was for the children and cultural reasons, but deepened into genuine faith.
• Jenny Holland contextualizes this as groundbreaking given Britain’s secular public square:
  • "In the UK, people really don't sort of...do God...for Brits to hear people talking in those terms, it might be slightly unusual." (03:58)
  • She observes a quiet revival among disillusioned seculars and “former lefties”—especially Gen X and younger generations.

2. Secularism vs. Faith and Cultural Longing

• The brutality and alienation of secular life are pushing people to seek transcendence and community in Christianity.
  • Steve Bannon: “It is such emotionally and intellectually a sterile place when it comes to religion [UK]... But there are green shoots.” (08:20)
  • Jenny Holland: "People are longing for an escape from the brutalities of secular life." (05:16)
  • Frank Walker notes that prayer and ritual break down the “wall” of atheism, especially through family and tradition. (07:32)

3. Church Leadership, Politics, and Moral Foreign Policy

• Extended critique of recent statements by senior Catholic cardinals (Cupich, McElroy, Tobin) advocating for a “genuinely moral foreign policy” perceived by the hosts as a direct challenge to Donald Trump’s foreign policy and an embrace of globalism.
  • Frank Walker: “They’re all about the globe, just like liberal attacks. They throw everything they can and see what will stick.” (11:18)
  • Bannon: "The so called popes...are less figures to evangelize the gospel of Jesus Christ, they are honorary chaplains of the new world order." (13:49)
  • Criticism of church activism on Venezuela, Greenland, Ukraine, and urge for laity to take leadership.
  • Hostility toward church organizations perceived as seditionist or politicized through anti-administration activism (refs to Bishop Broglio, sspx, FSSP).

4. Protestantism, Decline of Churches, and 'Woke' Christianity

• Statistical review: 4,000 Protestant churches closed in 2024, only 3,800 opened.
• Jenny Holland provides both data and personal perspective:
  • Notes secularization and the trend of “lukewarm” Christianity.
  • Points out that “go woke, go broke” is being played out among denominations endorsing LGBTQ agendas.
  • "I just find it fundamentally contradictory...when big Christian organizations that are supposed to have the moral gravity, adopt or support enthusiastically [LGBTQ]...it’s one or the other." (21:21)
• Bannon discusses generational shifts—Gen Z and millennials are fueling growth where there is authentic, traditional worship.
  • "Momentum seems to be with the millennials and Generation Z." (24:42)
  • Jenny: "Gen Z in particular are turning towards a more traditional form of Catholicism...what is driving young people to Christianity is the sort of mystery and awe element of it and the authenticity of the old ways." (25:33)

5. Role of Lay Movements in Church Renewal

• Critiques of current Catholic hierarchy perceived as both ineffectual and hostile to traditional faith.
• Call for lay organizations to assert leadership, particularly in the traditionalist space (references to sspx, fssp, canon212's thesis).
  • Frank Walker: "...the power of lay movements...can really have influence if just out of the reach of the control of the media and some of these faithful Catholic organizations..." (40:15)

6. Gender, Embodiment, and Catholic Feminism

• Jenny Holland highlights Leah Sargent’s conference address:
  • Central claim: “Our embodied, sexed nature is ordered for salvation; rejecting the cultural lies of interchangeability between men and women and radical autonomy.” (43:50)
  • Sargent criticizes “equality of vice” (contraception, abortion) as pseudo-liberation for women and connects this with critiques of transgender ideology.
  • Holland relates this theme to broader cultural malaise: “To separate your mind and body like that is very deeply unhealthy. We have these bodies that are given to us by God and they serve a unique set of purposes.”
• Bannon draws out that many new converts and thinkers are articulating ancient Christian truths with new intellectual, atheism-renouncing vigor.
  • "There is an increasing intellectual movement...people are renouncing former atheism and proclaiming Jesus Christ with a great deal of coherence." (48:15)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Sir Niall Ferguson:

  • "I never really questioned my atheism until I had kids myself...I understood one can't live without religious faith, that one can't be happy, that one can't feel a true sense of purpose. One can't know the real difference between good and evil without [it]." (00:46, 01:12)

• Jenny Holland:

  • "There is a growing religious belief among former lefties...who have found solace in Christianity...especially given the United Kingdom's history, its deep Christian roots." (04:33)
  • "What is driving young people to Christianity is the sort of mystery and awe element of it and the authenticity of the old ways." (25:48)

• Frank Walker:

  • "Atheism is sort of a wall and here it seems to be broken by reaching outside himself to his children, caring for them, caring for society, and then the prayers of being surrounded by that. It works miracles." (07:32)
  • On church politics: "They’re all about life...But they’re showing violence in the streets. They’re all about that." (13:28)
  • Regarding church sedition: "What they're representing is a fraud. And I don't think they should be treated as if they were legitimate Christians." (36:33)

• Steve Bannon:

  • "The so called popes that we’ve had...are honorary chaplains of the new world order...they see themselves as honorary chaplains of the international rules-based order." (13:49)
  • "Numbed by secularism, the brutality of secularism, people are thirsting for transcendence and the transcendence of beauty, which you find in the traditional Latin right liturgy." (26:39)

• Leah Sargent (discussed by Jenny Holland):

  • Sargent’s phrase: “Birth control and abortion provide women the equality...of vice.” (46:32)
  • “We are not simply individuals operating in a void. Basically, we’re co-dependent. We need each other to survive and to thrive.” (44:24)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00–01:43 — Sir Niall Ferguson’s public confession and conversion testimony
• 04:12–06:46 — Jenny Holland's analysis of Ferguson's impact in the UK context
• 07:10–08:20 — Frank Walker on the breakdown of atheism via prayer and family
• 10:51–16:32 — Extended critique of Catholic cardinal statements; foreign policy, Trump, and globalism
• 19:44–22:24 — Protestant church closures, generational religious decline, “woke” Christianity
• 24:42–26:39 — Younger generations (Gen Z, Millennials) turning to traditional worship
• 31:54–37:22 — Debate over activism in Episcopal and Catholic churches; sedition accusations
• 43:46–48:15 — Leah Sargent’s keynote: embodiment, gender, Catholic feminism
• 49:07–50:32 — Bannon and Holland on the new wave of public conversions and intellectual faith

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Tone and Style

The conversation is provocative, deeply skeptical of mainstream and progressive religious institutions, and unapologetically critical of “globalist” and “woke” trends in both secular society and organized religion. Despite strong opinions, there is genuine interest in the dynamics of faith, culture, intergenerational change, and the authenticity of religious experience.

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For further reading and perspectives:

• Jenny Holland: jennyholland.substack.com
• Frank Walker: canon212.com

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This summary provides a comprehensive account of the episode’s discourse, the panel's positions, and the wider social and religious context under discussion.

Transcript

[Sir Neil Ferguson]

I have a view, which is that we're probably in the very early phase of a Christian revival. I very much hope that will be the case. I look around me in England, where I'm spending a lot of time, and I think how many unhappy people there are who would be so much happier if they only went to church on a Sunday and opened their hearts to Christ. It's that simple. I found in the end that atheism was not a basis for a meaningful life and certainly not for a happy family life. And so I and my wife recently were baptized and are now practicing and devout Christians. And it has made a profound change to my life.

[Jenny Holland]

You used to be an atheist, but now you found religion.

[Sir Neil Ferguson]

That's right. I never really questioned my atheism until I had kids myself. And then I remember thinking, I'm not sure that I'm just going to make them good people by example. They really do need to know about Christianity. I think I came to the historical conclusion that religion was good. So I began to go to church, not with any religious faith, but thinking that it would be good for my children and broadly good for society if more families went to church. But then, more recently, I understood one can't live without religious faith, that one can't be happy, that one can't feel a true sense of purpose. One can't know the real difference between good and evil without. And so I was baptized, well, not long ago, September 1, 2024, along with my wife, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a former Muslim, former atheist, and our two sons.

[Caller or Listener]

This is the primal scream of a dying regime. Pray for our enemies because we're going.

[Frank Walker]

Medieval on these people.

[Caller or Listener]

Christians not got a free shot. All these networks lying about the people. The people have had a belly full of it. I know you don't like hearing that. I know you try to do everything in the world to stop that, but you're not going to stop it. It's going to happen.

[Steve Bannon]

And where do people like that go.

[Caller or Listener]

To share the big lie?

[Steve Bannon]

MAGA Media I wish in my soul.

[Caller or Listener]

I wish that any of these people had a conscience. Ask yourself, what is my task and what is my purpose? If that answer is to save my.

[Frank Walker]

Country, this country will be saved. War ROOM here's your host, Stephen K. Ban.

[Steve Bannon]

Wednesday, 21st of January, Anno Domini 2026 Harnwell here at the helm on Steve Bannon's War Room. We, we picked an interesting cold open for you today. That was Sir Neil Ferguson, one of, I, I think commonly appreciated one of the greatest living historians currently at work and writing. And he mentioned, of course, his wife, Ironherson Ali, who's a Somalian born, former member of Parliament in the Netherlands. Very strong intellectual, anti Islamic intellectual. And I thought that was quite. Those two clips were quite interesting. Jenny Holland, you actually flagged those up for the show. Why don't you just sort of give us 30 seconds on your take on what he was saying there. Specifically from the angle that in the UK people really don't sort of, to use Alistair Campbell's famous expression, warning to Tony Blair in an interview, we don't do God. So for Brits to hear people talking in those terms, it might be slightly unusual. Of course, it's common conversational currency in the United States. Tell me what you think, what impact someone with the authority and credibility and social respect that Sunil holds in British intellectual life, his two contributions there and others will make to the religious fabric of the country.

[Jenny Holland]

Well, my first thought watching those clips was that it looks like Mr. Ferguson has been watching the War Room Wednesday spirituality special. Yeah, I did. I saw those and I was sort of stopped in my tracks by them. I mean, I obviously know of his wife and I've read her books and I've read her articles and have a lot of respect for her. Ayaan Hirsi Ali. And she very bravely sort of stood against Islamism in Europe and I knew that she had converted to Christianity. But when I heard him say that there is a growing tide of Christian faith. Yeah, I mean, I actually, whilst not surprised from our perspective here on War Room, I was surprised to hear it from his perspective, as the UK does remain much more secular overall. But there is, even in my tiny circle, my tiny cohort, there is a growing religious belief among former lefties, sort of Gen X indie kids and atheists who have seen the terrible turn society is taking in multiple ways and have found solace in Christianity. I think, especially given the United Kingdom's history, its deep Christian roots, how Christianity really shaped the society and its history and its political power and its cultural power, and how interwoven Christianity was in English society when it was producing all of these incredible works. I think a lot of young people are, are longing for that era of respect and quality. They're longing for an escape from the sort of brutalities of secular life. And I agree with Niall Ferguson that God provides a refuge from that. And it's very interesting to me too, how he said he started going almost as a cultural Christian, right? So, you know, he's smart man. He's a very erudite man, so he understands the history of Christianity and how important it is. And so he thought it was an important cultural thing to take his children to church and have them participate in the rituals. But, you know, it's sort of the implication was, oh, I maybe thought I was sort of above it, only to find that no, he wasn't, and actually that God is a necessary part of family life. As someone who has a similar perspective, I find that resonates with me greatly and I'm very happy to hear someone of his stature say it.

[Steve Bannon]

I liked what you said, especially your expression about the brutality of secular life of sort of eventually sort of numbing people. I agreed with everything you said, apart from, you know, here's your latent Irish Republican sympathies. Jenny. Sir Neil. Please, Sir Neil, not Mr. Ferguson. Frank. Frank Walker. Thoughts and reactions.

[Frank Walker]

He. I think that it's interesting that he was drawn to this by things outside himself. You know, the greater society and the problems that it had, that's what's bringing a lot of people to it now. And then his children, he felt like they needed the education that. So he. I can't just raise them and have not them teach Christianity. Then he realized that he's the same way.

[Steve Bannon]

He.

[Frank Walker]

He needs that too. He's admitting some things that atheists would never admit about the meaning of life now. And that's amazing to me. But also, and this is so important, the prayers itself, surrounded by prayer in the church, you know, my father was the same way. He went to mass all the time to make my mother happy and to make his mother happy because it was a habit. But he never really believed anything. But now in his dotage, he's starting to believe it because the prayers, they break that wall of atheism. Atheism is sort of a wall and here it seems to be broken by reaching outside himself to his children, caring for them, caring for society, and then the prayers of being surrounded by that. It works miracles.

[Steve Bannon]

Yeah. It's the work of the Holy Spirit and it's beautiful to watch. And it's taking place in the uk, which is anyone who has any familiarity with the uk. It is such emotionally and intellectually a sterile place when it comes to religion. But there are green shoots and that's what we do here on the War Room. We watch out for them and bring them to the attention of the War Room posse. And as I say, Sir Neil Ferguson, one of the great living historians. So that's, I thought, his contribution that his public witness to Jesus Christ was very sincerely made. Okay, move on with the show then, because probably for the next 20 minutes, that's the last we'll be talking about Christ, because we're talking about the Catholic Church. And the Catholic Church institutionally rarely interests itself with such prosaic things like talking about our Lord and Savior. They're far more interested in talking politics, doing politics, geopolitics especially, especially when it comes to. To the endless string of platitudes, pacifists, pseudo pacifist platitudes, and Frank Walker, you've got your beady eyes on this one right now. The three, probably three of the most important cardinals, we're talking Cardinal Cupich From Chicago, Cardinal McElroy from Washington, Cardinal Tobin in Newark, have come together basically to call for what they call a genuinely moral foreign policy. Now, the New York Times, I think, which sort of did a great article on this just earlier on this week, clearly drew the dots on this. They're basically saying McElroy was just appointed a couple of weeks before President Trump put his hand on the Bible on January 20 last year. And that was a throwdown. And then following the. The meeting that they had, the consistory a couple of, what, 10 days ago in Rome, the three of them got together, spoke to other cardinals and then decided especially. And they throw in Pope Leo's name here so you can join the dots how the continuity between the two neo popes there. And this is a throwdown. Frank Walker, an in your face throwdown to Donald Trump, is it not?

[Frank Walker]

Yeah, they're throwing everything that they can at him. They're accusing him of being all about violence, of being lawless. They said the US military action in Venezuela and the threats to Greenland and the cuts to foreign aid risk bringing vast suffering instead of proclaiming peace without a moral vision. The current debate over Washington's foreign policy is mired in polarization, partisanship, narrow economic and social interests. They also said he's narrow interest just in his own country. And they're all about the globe. Just like the liberal attacks. They throw everything they can and see it will stick. They denounce how nations were using force to assert their domination worldwide and completely undermining peace in the post World War II international legal order. They renounced as an instrument for narrow self interest and proclaiming military action must be seen only as a last resort. We seek a foreign policy that respects and advances the right to human life, religious liberty and enhancement of human dignity throughout the world, especially through economic assistance. They always got to get back to economic Assistance. They really are angry about US Aid. But you know, these are the, even though they're the most powerful cardinals, are also the most notorious cardinals in the country. There are 14 other cardinals. They didn't sign on to this. They claim that at that synod that everybody expressed their opinion. The synod is a perfect vehicle to make lies that are unpopular look like a consensus. I don't, you know, Leo's church is all in with Davos, where Trump is now speaking. And they're always going to be presenting the globalist pattern. You know, there are three things that they have a problem with are Venezuela, Greenland and the Ukraine. Well, Venezuela only had, had no American casualties and Cuban guards were killed. It was very quick. And he was removed with his wife, Greenland. They're already starting to tweet support for Trump on the way over there and you know, he's pushing for negotiations. They may not. That might not be a military intervention at all. In fact, it's about securing the country, as if securing the Western hemisphere was a narrow interest. And Ukraine has been a horrible bloodbath like the size of World War II. And the church has been against peace, really, because they're all about Europe and Europe's position and they're all about NATO. Why is the Pope so interested in preserving NATO, which is a, an unnecessary institution, just sort of a grift. And the global order that they say right outright, they don't like this new global order. It's about violence and self interest and it's not about life like them. You know, they're all about life. They're about showing violence in the streets. They're all about that. But Frank Walker. Yeah.

[Steve Bannon]

You have put your, you have put your thing exactly on this, right? Because the so called popes that we've had over recent decades are less and less figures to evangelize the gospel of Jesus Christ. They are honorary chaplains of the new world Order. They are only. They see themselves as honorary chaplains of the international rules based order. And that's exactly in their statement. In these cardinal statements, they say this and you mentioned it yourself, but let me come back to it. The post World War II consensus of dialogue among nations, that is clearly said to the international rules based order. But what they said next, right, just shows you the sheer brazen cynicism of these men because they're now talking about. And you mentioned it, but let me come back to it. The sovereign rights of countries. These people have been trampling over sovereignty, right? Since basically 58 when Pius XII died, these people have been Globalists shilling for globalism. And now when it comes to propping up the communist atheist church persecuting regime in Venezuela, they suddenly discovered, right, that they're interested in the sovereign rights of countries. It's just the absolute brazen cynicism of these people. Never, it never ceases to amaze me.

[Frank Walker]

Yeah. And they want US Aid back. I mean, you don't even hear that anymore. But USAID was horrible for sowing propaganda around the world and for color revolutions. There must have been dozens of them all around the world through usaid. They're interested in that. They're so interested in sovereignty, they want to overthrow governments, you know, every two years. And the fact that they're supporting the Europe, Europe and this and Ukraine. And they don't appreciate Trump's efforts to back away from Ukraine. If it were up to, if it were upward to Leo's NATO and Leo's eu, there would be nuclear missiles pointed at Russia right now or nuclear possible missiles pointed there. Trump has backed off from that. And who's to say that Trump's new order is going to be so lawless all the time? I mean, they want, they're advocating constantly for fighting ICE in the streets. They want to, they've supported the bishops, the Renee Good side of this. You know, they've been about, all about illegal immigration constantly and it's really devolving into a lot of violence. So I don't see why they're, I don't know why they feel so much on the right side of the law here, these bishops.

[Steve Bannon]

Frank, we'll be back to you later on in the show. But you're absolutely right on that point. Why does, I mean, not only is, is Pope Leo, lefty Leo really sort of showing his hand now, after eight months though it is, to show his hand is to confirm the canon 212 war room thesis that we have held since day one in the face of Trad Inc. But why do they assume, why do these people assume so breezily? Assume what? When they're calling for moral foreign policy, that that isn't what Donald Trump is providing or working towards? Why do they so breezily assume that the globalist position of Joe Biden was somehow moral and therefore, you know, they're not going to enter and criticize that, but that Donald Trump or his cabinet or his supporters in Congress don't have all the millions of people, the 88 million people who voted for him aren't interested in a moral position as well, and they don't see that moral being fulfilled in what what Donald Trump is doing. We'll be back on these themes in just two minutes. Now a quick word from one of our sponsors. Let me be blunt. Gold is up 40% this year. That's not speculation, that's reality. And if a portion of your savings isn't diversified into gold, you're missing the boat. Here are the facts. Inflation is still too high, the US Dollar is still too weak and the government debt is insurmountable. That's why central banks are flocking to gold and they're the ones driving prices up to record highs. But it's not too late to buy gold from Birch Gold Group and get in the door. Now, Birch Gold will help you convert an existing IRA or 401k into a tax sheltered IRA. In gold, you don't pay a dime out of pocket. Plus from now until January the 30th. So you have 9 days to do this. When you complete a purchase with Birch Gold, they'll send you a copy of the exclusive Patriots edition End of the Dollar Empire limited edition book for free. Go to birchgold.com Bannon now to claim your eligibility. That's birchgold.com forward stroke Bannon. And I'll give that website out again later on in the show in about 20 minutes time if you want to have a pen and paper to note that. And I'll give that to you again. Now on with the show. So there are some developments also in the Protestant sphere. Specifically, this report comes out of the of the ambit of the Southern Baptists. Jenny Holland, you've been noting how this report indicates that last two years ago, in 2024, one year, let's say one calendar year ago, 4,000 churches were closed and only 3,800 were started. And you've been breaking down the statistics on this. Tell us more.

[Jenny Holland]

Yeah, so there's the article recounts a weakening in Protestant denominations. Information was taken from the Southern Baptist, but I think they mentioned a couple of dozen other denominations in generalized they don't mention their names. Yeah. So more churches closed than were started in 2024 in the U.S. you know, it's a bit of a mixed picture. It does mention that some churches that closed during COVID simply never reopened, which I think is an interesting tell and.

[Frank Walker]

That.

[Jenny Holland]

It sort of very vaguely blames secularization for this phenomenon. Older congregations are growing weaker, obviously, and I suppose they're not being replenished by young people coming through the doors. You know, it's interesting that they mentioned secularization because yes, obviously that is across the board True with many Protestant denominations and also this sort of mainstream, should you say sort of Catholicism, the sort of happy, clappy version of Christianity, which I'm always talking about. But I think, you know, it kind of swerves the bigger issue, this article, which is that what are Protestant churches famous for in recent years? Obviously not all of them, but certainly the big, the big ones, the Presbyterians, the Methodists, the Lutherans, the Anglicans, the Episcopalians, I guess, in the States. What are they famous for? They're famous for their Pride events and their enthusiastic endorsement of the LGBTQ agenda and lifestyle. And, you know, I've said this before and I'll say it again, I want to be very clear that in sort of a secular, in secular world, that is great. That is fine. Go ahead. Adults do, as adults do. I just find it fundamentally contradictory. Fatally so. When Christian elites, when Christian sort of big Christian organizations that are supposed to have the moral gravity, adopt or support, enthusiastically support lgbtq, you know, it's one or the other. It's really one or the other. So whilst it doesn't say outright, it just uses the fig leaf of secularization. You know, everyone has been, People have been saying for years, Protestant churches, you know, go woke, go broke.

[Steve Bannon]

I just want to say to folks who might be joining us here on our Wednesday show for the first time, Jenny Holland has a fascinating background. Jenny, you are a liberal, broadly liberal, progressive. Right. Let's say that. I think, I think that's unfair. And you started off as, on the show, as an atheist, but you prayed the rosary every day. And I'll give Jenny, or Jenny will give her social media at the end of the show because you want to track down some of the things that she's been putting out on substack on YouTube, especially about this journey of towards faith, that. So when she said. So when Jenny Holland comes on the show and she's talking here about the secularism effect eating away at lukewarm Christian faith, she has a certain authority when she says that through personal experience. And of course, towards the end of the article that we're actually referring to today, which I think is based on the Christian post, but it's actually. Yeah, it is. It is a Christian post thing. It actually mentions the cultural anti supernaturalism as biting into the. Making it difficult for people to have religious faith. And of course, you're someone who basically prayed yourself in to religious faith without intending to. So that's, you know, you have, you're one of the few people, I think, in social media that can say These things without visibly agitating for anything or any denomination or having an axe to grind. I want to just run this past you, Jenny, and then we'll go to the break because we have about two minutes. Now, what I did find in this, in the data here is that every. And tell me what you. What you make of this. Basically, every church background, bar one, was suffering a decline. Okay, so the churches, the church groups, these are Protestants, mainly Protestant, Southern Baptist, though not exclusively. Church groups that were founded before 1900 declined by 11% last year. Those founded between 1900 and 1949 declined by 13%. Those founded between 1950 and 1999 declined by 11%. Those church communities founded since the year 2000 saw an increase of 12. Now, I don't want to read too much into that, but it sort of suggests to me that the boomer Generation X sort of thing is wilting. But the momentum seems to be with the millennials and Generation Z. Am I reading too much into this?

[Jenny Holland]

I don't think so. We find that every week with Catholicism as well, that Gen Z in particular are turning towards a more traditional form of Catholicism. I want to say another thing about Protestantism versus Catholicism, and this is a sort of a frequent online discourse about Gen Z in particular, that they're very into aesthetics, and this might be somewhat of a. My personal bias speaking, but Catholic faith and Catholicism offers the better aesthetics, which sounds like a glib thing, it sounds like a superficial thing, but I don't think it is actually, because what is driving young people to Christianity is the sort of mystery and awe element of it and the sort of the authenticity of the. The old ways. That's what they're seeking out, as I mentioned earlier, as refuge from the brutality of the secular world. So to the people who are driving this upsurge in faith are coming at it with a fervor and an eye for detail that the boomer elites simply have forgotten about, have disregarded, and have taken for granted and therefore have thrown away and wasted. And there is a new generation coming to replace them.

[Steve Bannon]

Jenny, what, what you're saying there, to sum that up in 10 seconds, is that numbed by secular secularism, the brutality of secularism, people are thirsting for transcendence and the transcendence of beauty which you find in the traditional Latin right liturgy. Back in two minutes.

[Frank Walker]

Holidays are here.

[Caller or Listener]

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[Jenny Holland]

Kill America's Voice family.

[Caller or Listener]

Are you on Getter yet?

[Steve Bannon]

No.

[Jenny Holland]

What are you waiting for? It's free, it's uncensored, and it's where all the biggest voices in conservative media are speaking out.

[Caller or Listener]

Download the Getter app right now. It's totally free. It's where I put up exclusively all of my content 24 hours a day. Want to know what what Steve Bannon's thinking? Go together.

[Frank Walker]

That's right. You can follow all of your favorites. Steve Bannon, Charlie Kirk, Jack pos and so many more.

[Caller or Listener]

Download the Getter app now.

[Jenny Holland]

Sign up for free and be part of the new thing.

[Steve Bannon]

Well, welcome back. Back in the days when Chicago had a halfway decent cardinal, Cardinal George. His his famous quote was, I expect to die in my bed. My successor will die in prison. I and his successor will die a martyr in the public square. That came to mind Frank Walker, when I saw that an Episcopalian bishop, now let me get this right. Has told energy to prepare for a new era of martyrdom. Tell me more about the background of what's going on here.

[Frank Walker]

So I guess Cardinal Cupich might die in prison from what you're saying there. Anyway, this is one can only hope, this story about an Episcopal bishop in New Hampshire. It makes me think of where do we draw the line between these churches that are, that are really doing things that I would say are seditious? I mean, I'm not a legal expert and it's happening all over the place. And where is it protecting religious freedom? This New Hampshire bishop is warning that we could that we're entering a new era of martyrdom, which to me is kind of funny. Think about Episcopalian martyr. I always think of Catholic martyrs, but there aren't very many Catholic or Episcopalian martyrs these days. I know there's Episcopalians that are very faithful and would be martyrs. But anyway, what he means is people who are ready to die for people like Renee Goode, who is the woman that was killed trying to run over an ICE officer. I think the ICE officer was actually injured in that this Rob Hirschfeld, Bishop Rob Hirschfeld of Episcopal Church was at a vigil for Renee Goode and you know, of course he appeals to the Alabama and the civil rights from the 60s, but now it's time, he says, for us to, with our bodies to defend against the powers of this world. The people who want to build a new world cannot fear even death itself. Keep resisting, advocating and bearing witness for refugees because we can't be a church without refugees. This is just a rallying cry for activists. You know, now they're, they're, they were antifa. Now coming up to the midterms, they're this ICE protests. That's all it is. It's not really Christianity at all. He says the world's obvious not fine. People are going to respond to this. And I just think we need to ask ourselves how do we handle this? Because as these things move on, you know, this is how it happened in, in the banana republics of Latin America. They're siding with the communists and advocating a communist church, fighting with rebels against the legitimate government. And that's what they're doing here. At what point are we going to have to take steps? And Leo's church and the bishops are no different. The head of the archdiocese of the military, Archbishop Brolio, who was up until recently the head of the uccb, he's telling them to defy orders if they're ordered to do some military action in Greenland, which is not really an application of church teaching, as he says.

[Steve Bannon]

And back in the day, let's not forget he was also in charge of the formation of U.S. seminarians at the most important American seminary in the world, which is the North American college on the Genicula just high above the Vatican, which confirms an old cynical expression that we have in the UK that nothing succeeds like failure. So you said to this, by the way, we're sticking with Cardinal George, right on this one. His Elise's intuition that authentic Catholic witness to Jesus Christ is going to lead to martyrdom within our lifetimes, if not necessarily his. He died of cancer I think some, some 10 years ago. This, this, this is the, the Episcopalian bishop here isn't quite. He's treading the same line but for totally different reasons. Now you mentioned, just quickly hit this point right before we move on, you mentioned that this is pseudo seditious. It absolutely is. Because if you look at what the, the Catholic bishops have been saying again over the last few days is that they're saying to the US army that it's legitimate for them to disobey orders and presumably they have the discretion themselves which orders they want to obey. So orders like Going in and removing Maduro from Venezuela, that's, that's a big no. No, because we've just established, our Catholic bishops have just established that they're now nationalists and, and interested in sovereignty. So those side. So those sort of things you, you can legitimately ignore. So if the order comes to remove illegals from the country, who broke the law to break into the country, well, of course those are also orders that you can legitimately choose to disobey. Frank Walker, you hit the, you know, again on this show, you hit the nail on the head. This is sedition, right? This is.

[Frank Walker]

Archbishop Broglio should be pressured to resign from this position and move into something else. I think by administration. I think eventually steps need to be taken to calm the situation, not be rallied by these faux Christians. This is not a religious freedom matter. I mean, if you ask the bishops, they would say that they're illegal aliens. Trafficking grift is a religious freedom. These are not Christian principles that they're advocating for. What they're representing is a fraud. And I don't think they should be treated as if they were legitimate Christians. This people that advocate for this kind of thing, I think they should be pressured to, to tone it down. And people who are. Bishop said that and should be pressured to be removed and replaced with somebody who is going to preach actual Catholicism, not sedition and not, not, you know, agitation.

[Steve Bannon]

Just tell me then is this, is there room here if, if this is where the, the institution of. I'm not talking about this, the, the supernatural basis of the Catholic Church, which is the mystical body of Jesus Christ, but the institutional aspect of this right. If they are moving now into open, resident, open seditionary territory. Is this a moment for us to revisit on the war room, something that we've been pushing for since we started this show that really the Catholic laity, the faithful Catholic laity needs to assert a leadership role within the Catholic Church, within the political aspects of the Catholic Church, rather than leaving it to a group of men who clearly hate the very inner. They have a supernatural patron, preternatural hatred towards the very thing that they are supposed to be transmitting.

[Frank Walker]

Yes, as you say, a lay, a lay organization is the one that pressure in the traditional world you have. There's removed people that are not quite connected to the church like it's at the sspx. But Leo has meeting with the fssp, which is another group of Latin Mass traditional Catholics, but they're very much under his control and they do not have a political sense. And the Political sense of the traditional Catholic movement is, is sort of gone. It's really been compromised. And so we don't, we're not going to make any headway unless we have a lay organization that we can, you know, that we can actually have control outside the grip of the media and the church. I agree with you, Frank Walker.

[Steve Bannon]

Frank, you've been very naughty today on the show because every time I want to go over to Jenny, you pull me back in, you reel me back in with something else that I have to follow up on. So talking about the sspx, we saw, we saw that the sspx, the Society of Pius X was paid their visit. They bent the knee and kissed the ring in the Vatican to Pope Leo. And of course nothing is going to warm the cockles of Tradinck's heart than the other than seeing the SSPX leadership at the Vatican with Pope Leo. And of course it did warm the cockles of Tradinc's heart. And you have all the nonsense. But how they spoke for half an hour and discussed all the things. Frank Walker, I tell you what I want to see from the sspx otherwise I'm not interested. When are you. I'm not interested in any of the what anything that they have to say. I want to know a question to one thing. When are you guys going to consecrate new bishops so that your essential mission can continue? And if they're not going to answer that question, you know, just save me the platitudes because I'm not interested.

[Frank Walker]

Yes, you know, last time they did make sounds more like that sounded a little bit more helpful in that direction. But no, they nothing concrete as far as that goes. But the problem is concrete. And so yeah, these, that or that particular organization needs to consecrate bishops at some point. But mostly I think the power of lay movements and can can really have influence if they, if it just out of the reach of the control of the media and some of these faithful Catholic organizations so those people can operate better with help from the lay side. But we don't have any organization on the lay side and we need that.

[Steve Bannon]

All right, obviously we'll be keeping our cynical bdis on this one quick shout out once again to our sponsors then we'll go to Jenny for the last segment of the show. I did mention that if you wanted to get hold of the exclusive patriots edition end of the Dollar Empire limited edition book for free, you got to go to birchgold.com Bannon that's B A N O N. And you have, let me see, nine days in which to do that to take advantage of that offer. It's Birch Gold. All one word. B I R C H birchgold.com forward stroke Bannon. And also now a quick time. So as to say that if you are a homeowner, you need to listen to this. In today's AI and cyber world, scammers are stealing home titles with more ease than ever. And your equity is the target. Here's how it works. Criminals forge your signature on one document, use a fake notary stamp, pay a small fee with your county and boom. Your home title has been transferred out of your name. And then they take out loans using your equity or even sell your property outright. You won't even know it's happened until you get a collection or foreclosure notice. So let me ask you, when was the last time you checked your home title? If, like me, the answer is never. And that's exactly what the scammers are counting on. That's why we at the War Room Trust Home title lock. So use promo code [e-mail] to make sure your title is still in your name. You'll also get a free title history report plus a free 14 day trial of their million dollar triple lock protection. That's 247 monitoring of your title Urgent alert to any changes. And if fraud should happen, they'll spend up to $1 million to fix it. So go to home title lock.com now use promo code Steve. That's home title lock.com promo code Steve. So, Jenny Holland, then we've made it to the end of the show. Tell me you flagged this up. And I found it very interesting that a former. And I can see why you flagged it up. A former atheist, Leah Sargent, has spoken at a conference telling Catholic women that are embodied, sexed nature is ordered for salvation and therefore rejecting the cultural lies of interchangeability between men and women and radical autonomy. I mean, I saw some of what she said, Jenny seemed a little bit JP2ish to me, a little bit Theology of the Body. But tell me, what is it in her discourse here that you want to share with the woman posse this evening?

[Jenny Holland]

Well, a lot. There's a lot of stuff in this. You could probably do an entire show on it actually. But yeah, as you said, Les Argent is an author and I think a sort of a policy wonk who's written several books, her most recent of which came out a few months ago called I think the Dignity of Dependence, a Feminist Manifesto. And she gave a keynote at a conference in January a couple weeks ago organized by the Catholic Women and Gender Studies Program at the University of St. Thomas. Now, full disclosure and with respect, I am rather skeptical of the phrase Catholic feminist. I think it's a bit like being sort of a gay friendly church. I think they're mutually exclusive terms, but that's just my opinion. But she hits on some extremely interesting themes. Overall, the book and her keynote speech revolves around this idea. Sort of a cry against the strong drive to make humans feel and act as wholly autonomous creatures, men and women. She says that we are not simply individuals operating in a void. Basically, we're codependent. We need each other to survive and to thrive. And the remarks you made about our embedded sexed natures being ordered for salvation is very interesting to me because this idea of, or sorry, not embedded, embodied our embodies sex natures. These terms are the same terms that are used by a lot of you. Call them gender critical, ie, critical of trans ideology, women intellectuals and activists in the UK and the United States. And why is that? Because in this idea of wholly autonomous person, like the single unit of man slash woman, that a person can be whatever they want to be, including another gender. And it's gotten so bad another sex, really, because gender is kind of a nonsense idea. And it's gotten so bad in, in the culture, in certain sort of youth culture subgroups, that there's entire sort of online communities that are devoted to encouraging children and young people to actually disassociate, to learn practices, to disassociate their mind and body. And, you know, you can imagine all sorts of terrible things that could come from that. So to have this reminder that that is impossible, that to separate your mind and body like that is very deeply unhealthy. And we have these bodies that are given to us by God and they serve a very sort of unique set of purposes. Men versus women is actually a very wholesome thing. It's a very holistic thing. And she's very much in line with a lot of very interesting gender critical feminists and women who talk about this a lot. She said something else that I really liked. She had a phrase that I loved. This is a woman who used to be. Who grew up as a progressive mother, culturally Jewish father, lapsed Catholic parents, academics and progressives. So a lot in that background that I am familiar with, very similar to my own background. And she converted to Catholicism in 2012. And she's talking mostly about abortion and birth control, at least in this article and in this book. But you know, this, what, what she's saying definitely applies to the trans gender ideology, but she uses the, she uses a. Birth control and abortion as examples, not of liberation for women and equality of opportunity for women because it frees them from the procreative aspect of their lives. She, she portrays it as her phrase giving them equality of vice, which is a phrase I absolutely love and I will try to steal in future. Yeah, so it's a very interesting thing and it just goes to show that there's a lot of very interesting intellectual work being done in conservative circles that I think certainly the people who still consider themselves liberals would be, you know, shocked by because they think we're all mouth breathing troglodytes.

[Steve Bannon]

You've hit on that point there. That's to return us back to the beginning of the show. There is definitely something happening, and I've not seen this really since the 30s, 40s and 50s of the last century, that there is an increasing intellectual movement now talking about in a very courageous, incoherent way about the ancient Catholic truth and not, not exclusively Catholic. And it's coming from people who are coming out of atheism. Atheism. They're coming out because I don't, I don't think Neil Ferguson has, has converted to Catholicism. But you have you not you now see, and it's happening everywhere. People are renouncing former atheism and proclaiming Jesus Christ with a great deal of, of coherence, I think.

[Jenny Holland]

Yeah.

[Steve Bannon]

And that's what we're seeing here again, again in the present example of this lady, Leah.

[Jenny Holland]

Yeah, and she's also, she also seems very young. She looks like to be maybe in her 30s. So she's yet another example of young people coming to Catholicism specifically because she has converted to Catholicism and using it as an antidote and a solution to the sterility of secularism. I mean, I think atheism fundamentally is all well and good when you're a kid, when you're a teenager, when you're a young person, when you want to be a bit rebellious, when you lack depth and you lack experience in life. And then as you go through the phases of your life and everyone hits upon hard times and crises, you will find no refuge there in the meaninglessness of it all.

[Steve Bannon]

Ultimately, or to use your own words in the earlier part of the show, the brutal secularism, the brutality of secularism. I mentioned earlier, your writings, especially as you unexpectedly completed, or I should say completed without ever expecting to do 265 days of praying the Rosary. Where do people go on social media to read that particular article or the rest of your output?

[Jenny Holland]

Jenny so you can go to Jenny holland.substack.com to read my essay on my 365 days of praying the Rosary and what it taught me. And also I I have a new YouTube channel which is saving culture from.

[Steve Bannon]

Itself on YouTube and you're picking up basically thousands of new viewers per day on that YouTube channel. And entirely merited as well because it's superb. Frank Walker I just want to correct I I made I misspoke when we were talking. It was the FSSP that went to LEO yesterday rather than the sspx. But the question remains is that the SS pick certainly does need to get on and and do some consecrations. Where do people go to catch up with Stumbling Block or the or canon212.

[Frank Walker]

Yeah canon212.com type it up in the address bar. Or you can see the daily video update on the right column and also at Rumble and the Gloria TV also the stumbling blocks link to theirs and Canon 212 spelled out on Twitter too.

[Steve Bannon]

That's all we've got time for folks. We'll be back same same time Wednesday next week. I'll be back, God willing, on Friday.

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