WarRoom Battleground EP 985: Stopping The Islamification Of America

Summary

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War Room Battleground EP 985: Stopping The Islamification Of America

Date: April 9, 2026
Podcast: Bannon’s War Room
Host: Steve Bannon (WarRoom.org)
Guests: Raymond Ibrahim, Pastor Joel Webbon, Ben

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on concerns about the perceived "Islamification" of America, the perceived decline of Western Christianity, and how these trends intersect with modern politics and culture. Steve Bannon is joined by author and historian Raymond Ibrahim (speaking from Budapest) and Pastor Joel Webbon from Right Response Ministries. The guests discuss the historical, theological, and sociocultural forces at play, analyze the roots of what they call Christian decline, and critique both secular and modern religious attitudes for failing to resist what they view as existential threats from radical Islam and misplaced evangelical political alliances.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Historical Struggle: Christianity vs. Islam

Raymond Ibrahim’s Context & Books

• Ibrahim introduces his three-book series that examines the enduring conflict between Islam and the Christian West, emphasizing the lack of historical awareness among modern Westerners.
• Notable book: Sword and Scimitar (2018), focusing on eight pivotal battles that changed the world, particularly the conquests and losses of Christian territories to Islamic expansion.
• Key point: Many Westerners do not realize regions like Egypt, Syria, Turkey, and North Africa were once majority Christian, conquered violently by Muslim armies.

“They still think that countries like Egypt and Syria and Turkey and North Africa were just always Islamic. … They were actually more Christian than Europe and they were violently annexed.” — Raymond Ibrahim [04:45]

2. The Decline of “Metaphysical” Christianity

Materialism & “Doormat Christianity”

• Ibrahim argues that Christianity in the West has shifted from a focus on metaphysical morality (the seven deadly sins, spiritual warfare) to a materialist paradigm, primarily concerned with not causing physical harm.
• This shift, he claims, leaves a spiritual vacuum easily filled by Islam, which retains a traditional and confident worldview.
• Critique of modern Christianity: It celebrates pride, lust, envy, etc.—once viewed as deadly sins.

“Pride, of course, is exalted—pride month. … These were the principal issues … at the heart of Christendom for centuries, and they’ve just been completely … jettisoned.” — Raymond Ibrahim [09:28]

• Ibrahim coins the term "doormat Christianity," describing a passive faith that values non-confrontation and being walked on, which he maintains weakens resistance to ideological challenges like Islam.

“Doormat Christianity is not going to stand up against Islam. … It’s also a way of making turning a vice—cowardice—into a virtue.” — Raymond Ibrahim [15:47]

3. The Interconnection of Morality, Culture, and Geopolitical Resistance

• Ibrahim contends that only by reclaiming a sense of morality and the metaphysical aspects of traditional Christianity can the West instinctively resist so-called Islamification.
• He references the "two swords" theology — both spiritual and secular action are justified, historically evident in the Crusades and in justified war.

“I just wrote a book … The Two Swords of Christ … One [sword] is spiritual … but one is secular warfare, and that was the whole rationale for just war.” — Raymond Ibrahim [19:14]

4. Historical Lessons: Will and Civilizational Survival

Steve Bannon on Political Will

• Bannon laments the lack of will among Western elites and politicians to confront what he calls “radical Islam.”

• He points out that simply ignoring such issues (as is done by "elites in London, Norway, Sweden, New York City, Texas") leads to societal decline and potential conquest.

• Ibrahim adds that from a historical perspective, Western societies defeated by Islamic conquests often viewed these defeats as divine punishment for immorality—citing the Apocalypse of Pseudo-Methodius.

“The Christians of the time … were convinced it was God's punishment … due to sexual immorality. … It actually talked about men cross-dressing, women acting like men. …” — Raymond Ibrahim [24:50]

5. Evangelicalism, Zionism, and Christian Political Alliances

Interview Segment with Pastor Joel Webbon

• Ben introduces Pastor Webbon, noting a viral debate over the evangelical stance on Zionism and shifting attitudes toward Israel.
• Webbon explains that "dispensationalist Zionism" — belief in the necessity of a physical nation-state of Israel for prophecy and Christ's return — is a recent innovation (since mid-1800s), absent from Reformation and early Protestant thought.

“Dispensational Zionism is about 150 years old at this point. And so it’s very modern... The Protestant Reformation tracks back for 500 years. ... None of [the original reformers] were dispensationalists.” — Pastor Joel Webbon [33:01]

• He clarifies supersessionism: the traditional view that the church, not physical Israel, inherits God’s promises—a consensus among Catholics, Orthodox, and most Protestants until the last century.
• The rise of dispensationalism, paired with American evangelical support for Israel, has given outsized political influence that is theologically novel.

Proportion of Evangelicals Holding Dispensational Views

• Webbon estimates 85-90% of evangelicals are dispensationalists today, unfamiliar with the teachings of Luther, Calvin, and Edwards on these matters.

• He highlights how alliances among conservative Protestants and Catholics make for natural allies in cultural and political spheres despite theological disputes.

“Politically and culturally, I think that supersessionist Protestants, evangelicals, actually make for a very natural ally to traditional supersessionist Catholics. ... There’s an existential threat right now.” — Pastor Joel Webbon [45:20]

• Both Webbon and Ben agree that honest, clear-eyed cooperation across denominational lines is preferable to the so-called “ecumenism” of institutional leaders who water down doctrine.

“What I can’t abide is … institutional leaders … who, frankly, don’t believe a word of their own religion anyway, … put out these ridiculous statements where they say, ‘Look how much we hold in common.’ … What you hold in common is that you don’t believe the elements of your faith.” — Ben [47:12]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Bannon on Spiritual Vacuum:

“We tend to talk about symptoms. Islam itself in the West, … I see it as a symptom of essentially the weakening or the dying of Christianity in the West.” — Steve Bannon [05:47]

• Ibrahim on Western Decline:

“If you look at the West just for the last 50, 60, 70 years, it’s a continuous downhill … its culture, its morals … it’s civilizational degradation.” — Raymond Ibrahim [22:54]

• Ibrahim on Historical Cycles:

“When I look at the current situation today … the West is so much more powerful than Byzantium and the Persians were vis-à-vis Arabia—and yet look at what’s happening. … Muslims are overrunning Europe, they’re having their way. … Christian churches are allowing them to come in and proclaim the Shahada.” — Raymond Ibrahim [24:00]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:54] Introduction of Raymond Ibrahim & discussion setup
• [02:48] Raymond Ibrahim on need for historical awareness & book series overview
• [03:34] Ibrahim on the continuous nature of the Christian-Muslim struggle
• [08:49] Critique of materialist, “doormat” Christianity and its cultural consequences
• [15:47] Concept of “doormat Christianity” and its inability to resist Islamification
• [19:14] The “two swords” theology & the call for Christian militancy (spiritual/secular)
• [21:00] Bannon on the will to resist and the war’s spiritual/ideological nature
• [24:50] Ibrahim on historical defeats as divine punishment, referencing Pseudo-Methodius
• [32:57] Pastor Joel Webbon on the rise of dispensational Zionism
• [35:55] History of supersessionism vs. dispensationalist thought in Christianity
• [42:15] Webbon: 85–90% of evangelicals are dispensationalists today
• [45:20] Political/cultural alliances between Protestants and Catholics
• [47:12] Ben on false ecumenism and need for honest dialogue and allied action
• [48:24] Webbon on boundaries of cross-denominational cooperation

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Tone & Style

• Direct, polemical, and urgent in tone
• Frequent appeals to history, tradition, and religious authority
• Language is combative regarding both secular culture and perceived Christian passivity, reflective of Bannon’s “war room” ethos
• Speaks to a largely conservative, religious, and politically active audience

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Summary

This episode of War Room Battleground focuses on the perceived threat from Islam, the decline of Western Christianity’s moral and spiritual authority, and the need for a “revival” of robust, traditional faith in the West. Raymond Ibrahim argues the root problem is not Islam itself but the West’s abandonment of metaphysical morality, replaced by materialist, "doormat Christianity" that cannot resist ideological incursions. Pastor Joel Webbon discusses the theological history behind evangelical support for Israel and the emergence of dispensationalism, distinguishing it from traditional Christian beliefs. The guests and host advocate for a reassertion of classical Christian values, historically grounded resistance, and cross-denominational alliances—with clear boundaries—in both politics and culture, to address what they describe as existential threats to the American and Christian order.

Transcript

[Steve Bannon]

This is the primal scream of a dying regime.

Pray for our enemies because we're going medieval on these people. I got a free shot. All these networks lying about the people. The people have had a belly full of it. I know you don't like hearing that. I know you try to do everything in the world to stop that, but you're not going to stop it.

[Pastor Joel Webbon]

It's going to happen.

[Ben]

And where do people like that go

[Steve Bannon]

to share the big lie?

[Stephen K. Bannon]

MAGA MEDIA I wish in my soul

[Steve Bannon]

I w that any of these people had a conscience. Ask yourself, what is my task and what is my purpose? If that answer is to save my country, this country will be saved.

[Stephen K. Bannon]

War Room here's your host, Stephen K. Ban.

[Steve Bannon]

Okay, welcome. You're in the War Room on our six o' clock show, which always very special to us. Raymond Ibrahim joins us from Budapest. Raymond, I know you're just back from Oxford and in fact we're going to play a talk you gave there. It doesn't take very long. I think it's 10 or 15 minutes we're going to play that and I want you to break it down for us. It's about doormat Christianity. The reason I want to have you on was one, obviously this. You kind of shocked him in Oxford. But you're, I believe, if not the best, one of the top two or three best writers that informs the west of this long struggle we've had with Islam. And you've done it through a series of three books. Talk about the books. First, I want to play the Oxford talk and then we're going to break it down in a minute.

But in a time that we're in

another Middle east war with a radical sect of Islam, the Shiite, you know, the 12th Imam section in this kind of radical theology, which we've been in and out fighting for 47 years. At the same time, I've been spending so much time in Texas in the show for good reason, about the Islamic invasion. And I've told people it's much farther advanced than I thought. And this deals with the overwhelming victory we had on the proposition 10 to ban or prohibit, let me be specific, prohibit Sharia law in the state of Texas. To have your counsel on this and to put it in historical perspective is always important. So before I play Oxford, do me a favor and just walk through your background in all three of the books. One of them is out currently and I want as many people as possible to buy, plus the other two. They're fantastic and they kind of form a trilogy.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Thank you very much, Steve. Yeah. To understand what we're talking about today, Islam in the west and all its different iterations, most recently what's happening with Iran. I've always believed that there's been a complete vacuum in your average American and Westerner in general's knowledge of history. And that's why so much of what we believe and accept and let get away is, happens because we don't understand the full context of it. And we just think it's about, oh, you know, people, people are being multicultural and open minded and not bigoted towards Muslims, for example. But if you really look into the history, which is what I've been doing for about 25 years now, actually including in those three books, which I'll summarize, if you look at the history, you'll

[Stephen K. Bannon]

understand that this battle has been going

[Raymond Ibrahim]

on from day one, literally, and it hasn't really changed in its manifestation, at least not from the Muslim side. The Muslims are still preaching jihad amongst each other, they're still practicing Taqaya amongst the infidel, and they're still engaged in all the various forms of jihad which they've articulated. Jihad, remember, just means to struggle. And sure its primary expression historically has been physical military struggle, but it also has all these different forms which we're seeing now, including the baby jihad, which is a demographic overwhelming of the west, for example. The only discontinuity is from the Western side. So whereas Muslims today are really, you know, lock, stock and barrel with their, their heritage, which comes out in all of these books, it's the west and especially the Christians who've completely lost touch with that long history. So in these books we will see, for example, in Sword and Scimitar, we

[Stephen K. Bannon]

look at this long history.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

That's, that's the first book which comes out in 20, came out in 2018. I really focus on eight pivotal battles that changed the world forever. And they were between Christians and Muslims.

[Stephen K. Bannon]

And these battles, you know, the first

[Raymond Ibrahim]

one or two saw the conquest of essentially three quarters of what was once the Christian world, which very few Westerners still understand at this point. They still think that countries like Egypt and Syria and Turkey and North Africa were just always Islamic. Somehow they don't understand that they were actually more Christian than Europe and they were violently annexed. And so that there is a lesson that this could happen. There's that famous quote I always talk about from Theodore Teddy Roosevelt where he talks about if Christians did not fight constantly and he mentions virtually every century against the Muslims, they would have been eliminated completely happy to Be with you.

[Stephen K. Bannon]

I'm generally seen as the Islam guy and I talk about that big issue. But seeing that this is a Christian revival conference and the fact that Islam and Christianity, there's something of a symbiotic relationship going on, I have to actually talk about both because it's really all interrelated.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

And so what I'd like to start

[Stephen K. Bannon]

off with when I think of problems is, well, what's the first things? What's the first premise at the problem? And I often think that many people don't really see it or don't talk about it. We tend to talk about symptoms, Islam itself in the west, in Europe, in the uk. I see it as a symptom. I don't see it as an inherent or innate problem. And it's a symptom of essentially the weakening or the dying of Christianity in the West. So how did that happen? And one of the thoughts that's been percolating in my mind, and I've been thinking about and talking about quite often, is the idea that one of the problems with Christianity in the modern era is that it has in very many ways adopted a materialist paradigm, not unlike atheists and secularists. And by that I don't mean materialistic as in covetous. I mean it in a more philosophical sense, a materialist paradigm in the sense that all that is real, let's say from an atheist point of view, all that is real is what. It's the material, right? It's the physical world. It's what I can see, feel, touch and measure. And all this abstract talk about your morality and your religion and all this sort of thing is usually jettisoned. And that's one of the problems. But I fear, and I think, and I see, that much of Christianity and all of its manifestations in the modern era has adopted this worldview, despite the theological veneer of what they say. So, in other words, a Christian can, of course, express profound theological truisms, but at the same time, you know, as they say, the proof is in the pudding. And what I'm seeing is, so how is a Christian becoming materialist paradigm in a philosophical sense? If you look at, if I speak to a Christian, what is the greatest evil that you can engage in? I think a lot of people will say what a atheist would say, which is physical harm. Okay, physical, physically harming someone and much worse, of course, killing someone. And I agree, of course, those are great evils. No one would argue that. But unbeknownst to most Christians, that was actually more of a minor aspect of the message of Christianity, the entire ethos, the morality that was created. And in short, before I elaborate, the problem with materialist Christianity, which in many ways has, like I said, permeated the worldview of all Christians, is that it perfectly comports with secularism and atheism. And that is why Christianity is still allowed to live side by side with a secular or even atheistic environment, because it also agrees all that we want to do is make sure no one's physically hurt, there's no violence. But the question now becomes, what happened to morality? That was a word that used to be pivotal and important and fundamental to something like Christianity. Where is there morality anymore? And I'm not talking, of course, about individual Christians. I'm sure there are many devout Christians still in the world. But it's not something that is socially acknowledged or something much less that is socially pursued that we talk about.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

Okay?

[Stephen K. Bannon]

And once one, I think this is my realization when I think about it and how morality is not complete. Western people and Christians will say they're moral, but again, it's through a materialist paradigm. And you know that by simply looking at what used to be the greatest sins and the greatest evils for a society, and all of them are, to various degrees, completely accepted by Christians today. And all one has to do is look at the sexual mores of the west today. And very few Christians will even argue or talk about it or even dispute it. And they'd be, of course, scandalized to feel like they have to talk about it. But if you look at historic Christianity, biblical Christianity, Christianity in all of its forms, something like sexual mores, sexual sins, that was one of the pinnacles and one of the most unquestioned aspects of Christianity. So you see, this is why. Why is it not being mentioned? Because, well, no one's hurting anyone. And so that's what I mean. That's a perfect example of how a Christian adopts the materialist worldview. Now, there used to be something, and just to make it simple, you may have heard, I'm sure you have, of course, many Catholics, Anglicans, of the seven deadly sins, which actually very much informed the worldview of Christians in the pre modern era. And they are, I often miss, but let's see, wrath, greed, gluttony, envy, lust, sloth. And I always miss one pride. Oh, yeah, the worst one. Yeah, I know the root of them all. Yeah, you're right. Okay, so think about those seven things now, okay? That is what a Christian society thought about. Now, these are all metaphysical. They're not material. Okay? These were metaphysical principles. This is what Christianity was all about. Notice killing is not one of the seven deadly sins. Why? Because it's a byproduct. Of course. It's evil and you shouldn't do it, but it wasn't seen as a root cause. Now, when I look at these, the seven deadly sins, which were fundamental to a Christian society, Christian to Christendom, essentially, for centuries up until actually quite recently, not only are they not something that we talk about or something we condemn, they are, in fact, what we now celebrate. And much of our economy is based on it. And we call ourselves Christians, and we live with it, and we live in peace with this. And I find that very interesting. Pride. Pride, of course, is exalted pride. You know, pride month. Think about that. Lust, that's everywhere you look. It's promoted. It's glamorized envy. Just think social media, okay? Gluttony, turn TV on. Everything's about putting images of food, sloth. So it's kind of amazing that to me, these are the principal issues. These are the first things that were actually at the heart of a Christian order, and they've just been completely so jettisoned. And very few Christians even understand this. And that's the point. This is so subtle and so incremental that. And the reason is, the best way I can put it, is because Christians, one way or the other, over the decades and possibly centuries, have just adopted a very materialist worldview, which is that, yeah, we talk about the afterlife, we talk about sin, we talk about being saved, but in the end, when it comes to society, we begin and end with just not hurting people. Okay? So that's become the ultimate Christian virtue, and it is a virtue. I'm not arguing that, but I'm trying to say there was so much more above it, which actually gave meaning to life. Now, what happens when societies such as Western society, European society, jettisons what I'm talking about, which is essentially the metaphysical aspect of Christianity? You can actually call it the spiritual aspect, because the physical or material aspect, what's the corollary is the metaphysical, the beyond the physical. Well, that's the spiritual. And I just think it's funny because a lot of Christians today, when they say the word spiritual, it means some sort of abstract, fuzzy feeling. Actually, I think to be spiritual is to be engaged and to comprehend and try to exercise the metaphysical aspects of Christianity. The things that are beyond the physical, that are not measurable, that deal with morals and ethics and that sort of thing. Now, when all that is jettisoned, as it has been in recent generations, a vacuum is created. And that's, I think, where we are. And what does nature abhor? It abhors a vacuum. Enter Islam. Well, Islam, of course, is its own body system. It's its own religion. It has its own teachings. You know, one can be very hostile to it or critical of it, and I'm of course associated with those views. But we have to be honest, it also brings a sort of traditional worldview. It knows what a woman is and it knows what a man is. It's not confused about that, for example. And it has all sorts of things that were very traditional that Europeans and Christians would have agreed with historically. So I think that aspect and its confidence. So now you have a vacuum in Europe, in the west in general, because of the reasons I've outlined dealing with the sort of slow melting away of Christianity based on these philosophical or epistemological underpinnings. Now you have Islam coming in and it may have all its problems and all, but it's still, it's very visceral. It's down to earth. And it does offer all of these things that are filling the vacuum. Okay? And this is why you find Western people who are turned off and find no resonance in modern secular liberal culture, and they turn to something like Islam, which on the heart of it doesn't make any sense. I wager if those people actually had a true Christian upbringing or according to the way I'm trying to describe it, which is actually much more fused with a metaphysical understanding, they would not find Islam appealing. But that's what I mean. There's a vacuum now. So that even something that is inherently inferior in as much as it offers something of a primordial conservative worldview that still resonates with all humans, then it becomes appealing and then it's all, especially in this country, it's coalescing in a very strange way. As you all know now that there's a new blasphemy code or about Islam, a new anti Islamophobia or anti Islam hostility thing. And of course, this is just this is that one more way to help Islam to become more empowered, more entrenched. You can't even criticize, criticize it. And I haven't looked as closely as I'd like to, the wording, but it seems it's very fuzzy, intentionally so and vague, so that anything it says, things like encouraging hostility or well, who's going to decide all that? And all of this. So the kind of Christianity that I'd like to see go away and I'd like to see it sort of bring back a more traditional form of Christianity that prevailed during Christendom. Well, what I call, let's put it this way, I've tried to coin a word, I call it doormat Christianity. And I think this is the modern form of Christianity whereby Christians are taught, again, in keeping with what I'm saying, this materialist idea to just be doormats. Okay, Christianity begins and ends by you being a doormat. You're non confrontational, you lay down, everyone walks all over you and then you get to pat yourself on the shoulder and say, hey, look, I'm virtuous, I'm good. It's also a way to make, it's a way of making turning of vice, cowardice into a virtue, I think. And that's why become very prevalent what I call doormat Christianity. Doormat Christianity is not going to stand up against Islam. And that's what we're seeing. In fact, that kind of Christianity, which is completely about just being passive. Who do you think benefits from it most of all? It's probably the more of an enemy you are to Christianity, the more the prevalent form of doormat Christianity works and serves perfectly to empower the opposite forces. So I think Christians need to recapture and reclaim a sense of morality and a sense of the metaphysical because otherwise you don't. It's. And again, I'm going back to the first premises. These are the building blocks. Without these, I don't believe that, let's say the Islam problem cannot necessarily be addressed in and of itself. You can't maintain a sort of this current culture which with all its confusions and sort of break away from Christianity and then be able to resist something like Islam. I think it's all very interconnected. If you go back, and you can easily see this, go back a century to the way Western Europeans and Westerners thought and Christians thought, you wouldn't have this Islam problem at all even if it existed. It would immediately be solved. So I think there's a lot of paralysis going on amongst Christians because they just feel like, like I said, the best they can do is to just be just what they've been taught and bred, including, like I said, by forces that don't like Christianity. I saw a video in the Super Bowl a couple years ago and as you know, super bowl commercials, super bowl commercials tend to, they're very prominent and very mainstream and all it was was images of people washing people's feet. But for some reason all the People who were washing their feet looked like white traditional Christian people. And all the people getting their feet washed were, well, one was a trans man, one was obviously it was like on a migrant border and it was an illegal migrant. One was a woman committing an abort or at an abortion center. And people are protesting, but another woman's washing her feet and all. And one was a criminal and a policeman was washing his feet. And then it ended up by seeing Jesus didn't hate, he washed feet. And you can just see that kind of message, how it is completely geared to weakening Christianity by also but making you think you're being a good Christian because there's no balance. Of course Jesus washed feet. That's not my argument. But there was a balance. Jesus also hurled tables and made a court of whips and drove people and livestock. So there is a room, I believe, for, well, the Bible says so righteous indignation that is at least funneled in a proper way. And all of that, I guess, is missing. And in as much as people don't get that, I think a lot of this is futile and I'll end it by what I call the two swords theology. I just wrote a book that came out a few months ago. It's called the Two Swords of Christ and it deals with the military orders and their battles with Islam, the Templars and Hospitallers. But there's a second meaning to the title and it's basically in Luke where Christ says he doesn't have a garment, sell it and buy a sword. And the disciples say, lord, here are two swords. And he says, that is enough. Now, of course, the modern day Christians, that means absolutely nothing. It doesn't mean anything about a real sword. But of course there's a long and deep tradition, pre modern, especially medieval understanding, which is the two swords. One is spiritual, which I think modern Christians still accept spiritual warfare, but one is secular warfare. Okay? And that was the whole rationale for just war. That was the whole rationale for the Crusades, which I'm sure a lot of people think think are not what they really were. But so that kind of mentality. And again, it's not about physical, not necessarily literal, it's just about being bold and militant, at least vocally and in your approach to what's happening. Because if you look back, you zoom out and see what's been going on, it's just been one incremental slow degrade. And no matter how many, no matter what people are saying or doing or books or conferences, if you look at the scale, it goes down. It's like one step forward, three steps back, and that's how it's been going. So I think in part with Christian revival and the Islam threat, Christians just need to again, go to these first things and really recapture a sense of morality that is above and beyond just physical considerations. And once that is done, because like I said, it's all interconnected, the Islam question will become a lot easier to answer almost instinctively and very natively in

[Steve Bannon]

the time we have left, given that we're in a kinetic war driven by. And I realize, oh, it's a nuclear weapon. It's this and that. It's this and that. It is at its essence, it's radical Islam. I'm not saying that we should have gone at the time we went or how we went. Let's, that's a discussion for another day. But you cannot talk about what's happened in Persian Iran without getting to the core of it, that this is the, the, one of the most radical, if not the most radical part of Islam. And this whole thing with the Mahdi and the Imam, and it almost seems like people, oh my gosh, we got to go back after 9, 11. We have to go back after, you know, after the Iraq war or during the Iraq war or during the time when President Trump put the travel ban in. We have to go back and study it. Yes, you have to, because a lot of Westerners, like people in London, the elites in London, people in Norway, people in Sweden, people in New York City, some people in Texas, they believe if you just don't confront it and you look the other way, it's going to take care of itself and everything is going to be fine. I'm here to disabuse you of that. And I can point to some of the smartest people in the world and some of the best researchers and writers in the world. They give you a historical record where that is the exact. That does definitely does not work. In fact, it will lead you to be conquered. Raymond, in the time we have left. Now, given your historical perspective of their previous invasions, do we have a fighting chance? Given the weak willed nature of our elites and our political systems in the Christian west, and particularly the United States of America, to combat this, to stop it, and then to reverse it, Sir,

[Raymond Ibrahim]

I think, you know, the west has definitely the material forces, the economy, to do what needs to be done.

[Pastor Joel Webbon]

Done.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

And, but it's as you say, the question is the will. And I, I don't know, because the way I see it, I, I see things from a very Kind of zoomed out, long view with historical continuities. And if you look even at the west, just the last 50 years, 60, 70 years, it's a continuous downhill and there's, you know, it's locked, it's, it's connected with its civilizational degradation. Okay? It's, it's culture, its morals, you know, this, it's funny, I don't know if I mentioned before, but the historical Islamic conquests that we know, that we were talking about in the seventh century, you know, historians still really can't give you an answer how it happened. Because Eastern Roman Empire, the Persian Sasanians were very powerful and no one really, how can some, you know, just a small band of Arabs described even in Muslim sources as just having, you know, being naked and whatever weapons they can find. How could they conquer two empires and then overrun all these massive lands? And you know, today's historians can't give you a good answer, but they'll come up with something and I can give you what they. But the Christians of the time who lived there, they were convinced it was, it was God's punishment, that God had raised this, these people up to chastise them for their sins. And ironically, the most, the most influential writing, it's known as the Apocalypse by Pseudo Methodius. And it was published around 690 at the height of the Arab conquests. It came out in Syriac, but it continued influencing Christians. Even in 1683, at the siege of Vienna, it was being translated and published within Vienna to explain why Christians were being attacked by the Turks. And that one says not only because Christians had lost their way, but it was due to sexual immorality. And it actually talked about men cross dressing, women acting like men. Okay? And it was very, very hugely popular. Now, of course, from a secular historical point of view, that's nonsense. That's not why, you know, Islam prevailed. But when I look at the current situation today and I see the west is so much more powerful than Byzantium and the Persians were vis a vis Arabia, the West now is much more powerful vis a vis the Islamic world. And yet look at what's happening. Muslims are overrunning Europe, they're having their way. Christian churches are allowing them to come in and proclaim the Shahada. While like you said, you know, it's not, it's not, it's a one way sort of cultural or religious dialogue. So I'm wondering to what extent is this the punishment of God? Because, you know, centuries down the line, you know, when the world completely changed, posterity will look back and this will be an even greater mystery than the original 7th century conquest.

[Stephen K. Bannon]

Because all they'll know is, well, we

[Raymond Ibrahim]

know that Europe and the west was really, really powerful and we know that Muslim world wasn't and that there were migrants, but somehow or other they took over and it's really a mystery. So I wonder if it's the same

[Stephen K. Bannon]

reason given by Pseudo Methodius in the

[Raymond Ibrahim]

apocalypse, which is, you know, complete immorality, turning away from God, God highlighted and underscored especially bisexual, gender confused type of immorality.

[Steve Bannon]

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America's Voice Family Are you on Getter yet?

[Ben]

No.

[Raymond Ibrahim]

What are you waiting for?

[Steve Bannon]

It's free, it's uncensored, and it's where

[Pastor Joel Webbon]

all the biggest voices in conservative media are speaking out.

[Steve Bannon]

Download the Getter app right now. It's totally free. It's where I put up exclusive all of my content 24 hours a day. Want to know what Steve Bannon's thinking? Go together. That's right. You can follow all of your favorites. Steve Bannon, Charlie Kirk, Jack Posobic and so many more.

[Pastor Joel Webbon]

Download the Getter app now.

[Steve Bannon]

Sign up for free and be part of the new pin.

[Ben]

I'm delighted that we've got Pastor Joel Webben on the show who's the founder of Right Response Ministries. And the reason we asked Pastor Webbon to come on the show is last week Senator Cruz shared an article many people will have seen. This is basically lit up. Everyone in the sector. Their, their, their Twitter algorithms lit up with this. And he said, Senator Cruz said, read every word of this. It's the best and most comprehensive explanation of what we're fighting. And he that tweet him. His tweet had 3 million visualizations. The article he was pushing out had, I think, 5 million or so visualizations. And it basically got everyone talking about, for some corners of evangelicalism, the idea that traditional Catholics are plotting a takeover of the American state, but us. That's not really what I want to discuss in that, because what really interested me is the standing assumption, and I think this came through very clearly, that the author's principal preoccupation was that American evangelicalism might be losing its grip on Zionism, on the pro Israel state stance, which has subsumed a huge section of. Of contemporary American evangelicalism. And I wanted to dig into that because it wasn't always so. And Pastor Joel Webben has been active on this issue in social media. I thought he would have interesting things to say, especially to our largely evangelical audience. Pastor Webben, thank you very much indeed for coming on the show. Tell me, if you wouldn't mind, in your own words then, about this wider debate. Why are some dispensationalist evangelicals concerned that the evangelical institution, if I can use that word, the evangelical church's grip on the narrative, the pro Zionist narrative, might be slipping.

[Pastor Joel Webbon]

Yeah, Zionism is. Dispensational Zionism, I should say, is. Is. It's a very modern notion. It's not just that it's, oh, well, this is what Protestants have always believed. No, at this point, most people are probably aware of the Scofield study Bible and Joseph Darby and these guys that came in the mid-1800s. Dispensationalism. Dispensational Zionism is about 150 years old at this point. And so it's very modern. Whereas the Protestant Reformation tracks back for. For 500 years. And so when you look at Martin Luther, you look at John Calvin, you look at Zwingli, you look at all these. Jonathan Edwards, you know any of the Protestant reformers who outlined the Protestant position. None of them were dispensationalists. And to break those terms down just briefly, dispensational Zionism is the idea that all of these Old Testament promises that we find in the Bible for Israel that are physical promises, promises, promises about the land being recaptured or a temple being rebuilt. And these kinds of things, that these promises are meant to be understood. They've either already, in a preterist meaning, past, the Latin for past, they've been past fulfilled, or if there are any future instances of these promises that are still yet to be fulfilled, they have a spiritual fulfillment, not a physical fulfillment. So all of the Catholics and all of the Protestants until again very recently, the last hundred 150 years, understood that whether or not Israel was a nation state in the year of our Lord 2026 or not had no bearing on whether or not biblical prophecy will be fulfilled and the return of Christ. But somewhere along the line, there became this very wooden hermeneutic, this very literal physical interpretation of Old Testament prophecies that essentially got evangelicals, which is a subset of Protestants, but a large subset, to believe that Christ can't actually come in his final physical return, that that can't take place. What every Christian desires and wants to see, that that won't actually happen until the nation state of Israel has been re established and Israel widens in its territory, achieves hege and all the boundaries. Mike Huckabee is saying this. Ted Cruz is saying this. The old boundaries all the way from the river to the sea has to belong to Israel. The Temple Mount and a new temple actually fashioned, and then we'll get the return of Christ. That's not how the Protestants historically saw it. That's certainly not how Catholics have seen it. That is a modern innovation. But many evangelicals have fallen for it.

[Ben]

Tell. Okay, so. So first of all, let's synthesize this. Protestants, Evangelicals, Catholics, Orthodox, for the vast historical sweep of history, right up until about 150 years ago, they were all supersessionist, right?

[Pastor Joel Webbon]

Yes.

[Ben]

And then at around that time of Schofield and Darby and all the rest of it, there was a re evaluation of concepts which became under the bracket of dispensationalist. Dispensationalist. These terms, these two terms very fluently used in evangelicalism, are hardly heard at all in Catholic debate as Catholics talk to one another. But it is interesting to hear from you as an evangelical, that this dispensationalist view was not held at the time of the Reformation. No, for centuries. Not until centuries afterwards.

[Pastor Joel Webbon]

Right. Dispensationalism, it comes from the word dispensations, which are just their segments of time, eras of time. So a dispensation of 80 years or a dispensation of 200 years. The idea of dispensationalism, it goes against supersessionism, is the idea of covenant, that God has been doing something and he's not doing it ad hoc. Right. It's not on the fly, but that God, who formed the world before the foundations of the world were laid, he had a plan. We're not on plan B. The Church is not plan B. Whereas Israel, God's chosen people, is plan A. But that didn't work out. And so go God paused plan A for the last 2000 years and was working on plan B with the church. And then eventually he'll fold those things together. Dispensationalism is the idea that God is doing a different thing in each of these dispensations, each of these eras of time. Whereas covenant theology or supersessionism is the idea that God has had a plan from the very beginning. And his plan with Israel under the Old Covenant, Old Testament Israel, Israel according to the flesh, is that through them he would bring about the promised seed. And the seed is singular. St. Paul says this in the book of Galatians. We see this in Ephesians, multiple New Testament passages. Paul, when he's commentating and exegeting the Abrahamic covenant from the Old Testament, Genesis chapter 12, this promised seed, he even goes out of his way verbatim to say it is not seeds plural, but rather seeds singular, and the seed is cross Christ. So what is the purpose of Old Covenant Israel according to the flesh? In the Old Testament, God was using them to bring about eventually the promised Messiah, to bring about the Christ. And then upon the completion, once we have the New Covenant, we have the incarnation of Jesus Christ, his life, his death, his resurrection, his ascension, and the inauguration of the New Covenant, and the church, then Israel according to the flesh, Old Covenant Israel, they're not just discarded, they're warmly invited in. But sadly, many of them, not all, but many of them chose to reject that invitation. The analogy or illustration that I often will use is that Old Covenant Israel according to the flesh was like the construction crew with scaffolding that God used for multiple millennia to build a glorious cathedral of true Israel, the church that is rooted ultimately in Christ. He is the promised seed. He is the root, the root of Jesse. It's Jesus. And then this church is to be made up of both Jews and Gentiles. So it's not that the Jews are sent home, but they're warmly invited in. But what evangelicals, dispensationalists have been doing is they've basically said, when the scaffolding, when the cathedral was finally complete, they said, no, the scaffolding is actually. That's the cathedral. Leave the scaffolding up. The cathedral is a sideshow. That's just something that God's doing temporarily, but the real show, the real exciting thing is look at this beautiful scaffolding. It's like no God was doing something through Israel to bring about The Messiah. And then out of that the new covenant is inaugurated. The truth church is incompleted. And God invites into this church both Jews and Gentiles to have union with Christ his Son, by grace and by the power of the Holy Spirit. And the sad thing is that, you know, Jews still, to this day, religious Jews and many ethnic Jews still reject Jesus as the promised Messiah. That's somewhat to be expected. They need to, ultimately, God would have to to change their hearts. They would have to be born again like any person. You must be born again and come to faith in Jesus Christ. What's shocking is not really the disposition of Jews. What's shocking is the disposition of Christians. Predominantly evangelicals, as you're giving the lay of the land. There's Catholic, there's orthodox, there's Protestants, Evangelicals, a subset underneath Protestants, you have the mainline Protestants that are all, all gay, affirming the rainbow flags are outside of their buildings, church buildings. Then the evangelicals tend to be the more traditionalists. Traditional marriage, traditional this, that and the other, and they vote Republican gop. The problem, though, is they've bought into dispensationalism. And so they think that whether it's America's success politically or whether it's the success of Christianity and the return of Christ, that the physical expression of Israel taking over the land, holding the land, rebuilding the temple, that all this is integral for those things to take place.

[Ben]

Could you just give me. Talking about a lay of the land. Could you just give me an indication, if you wouldn't mind guesstimating on this, what proportion of evangelicals are dispensationalist and which proportion would be, as a percent would be Supersession.

[Pastor Joel Webbon]

Yeah. For evangelicals, I would say that probably 85, 90%, an overwhelming majority. Because within evangelicalism, again, that being a large subset of Protestantism, most evangelicals don't really appreciate the original Protestant reformers who tended to be. They were Reformed, they were Calvinists, if I could use such a dirty word on the air. Calvinist. I'm a Calvinist, for better or worse. There are strengths and there are weaknesses. But Jonathan Edwards and Martin Luther and John Calvin, these were the original reformers. They were all Calvinist. Most Protestants today are not. They're Arminian. Most evangelicals today are Arminian in their view of salvation, their view of God's sovereignty. And so most of them, most evangelicals, when they think of the original reformers, they think of Calvinism, like election, God choosing with salvation, those kinds of things. And they have an aversion to that. And so they've kind of turned away. It's ironic, but Protestants today have turned away from the original protest, the original Protestants. And because they've been turned off by the soteriology, which is just doctrine of salvation, the emphasis of God's sovereignty, they think that there should be more elevating of human free will. And so they've turned sour on the original Protestant Reformation. And in doing so, for salvific, soteriological reasons, they detach themselves from the history. So most evangelicals today, they don't have a clue what Martin Luther or John Calvin or Jonathan Edwards or these guys thought about supersessionism or the. The future role of Israel in the eschaton. They're just. They're not aware, they're ignorant. Certainly moral virtue is of infinite eternal value. That matters most. But there are different categories, right? So there could be someone. There's lots of guys like this. Timothy Gordon is a great example. He does a lot of good work. He's Catholic. Dr. Taylor Marshall, he's Catholic. He does a lot of great work. Calvin Robinson is a friend, and he's actually coming on our network and being a contributor and doing a show with us. That's NXR Studios, New Christian Right Studios. That's kind of been birthed out of Right Response. Right Response still continues, but having two organizations and all these guys are Catholic. Calvin Robinson is not Roman Catholic, but. But he's Catholic for all intents and purposes. And my point is, the reason why we're able to unite is because there are different categories. Calvin, for instance, is a dear friend. He's not an elder in my church.

[Steve Bannon]

Right.

[Pastor Joel Webbon]

Evangelicals are still going to have their individual churches, and Catholics, of course, are going to have their individual churches. But there's church, the Ecclesiastes.

[Steve Bannon]

Right?

[Pastor Joel Webbon]

But then there's the realm of politics. There's the realm of culture. There's, you know, there are other realms. And so politically and culturally, I think that supersessionist Protestants, evangelicals actually make for a very natural ally to traditional supersessionist Catholics. Because what we're both seeing is that, yes, our intramural debates about theology, it's not insignificant. It matters. We have real disagreements, agreement. And we know we're not relativists. Right. We can't both be right if we have two contrary opinions. Somebody's right, somebody's wrong, all that matters. But we're realizing there's an existential threat right now, which is foreign. It's foreign influence that we need to be able to have a country that is truly America first. So I am finding myself very comfortable reaching across the aisle politically and culturally with Catholics and saying, look, this is not what the Bible teaches. There's a lot of Christians who have been manipulated, thinking that they have a divine obligation politically and geopolitically and with their money and giving and all these kinds of things to support something that the Bible doesn't actually require. And so I think that, yes, a broad coalition on this issue. So it's not only possible, Ben, but it's already well underway. It's happening.

[Ben]

So first, concentrate on the existential battles, the existential threats, and then is the opportunity to pat one another in a fraternal way on the back. Look out. Look at our. Look our fellow. Look at our fellow. Look our fellow combatants in the eye and say, you're going to hell. I've always said, by the way, because I spent like a lot of time in politics when I worked in the UK Parliament and in the European Parliament working with evangelicals who were very well informed over their elements of their belief. And I had no better allies working on the pro life front. And I always said I work best with evangelicals who will do that, who will look me in the eye and say, you're going to hell. And the only thing I ask is the opportunity just to push back a little bit on all of my own heresies back, and then we'll have that debate. What I can't abide is, is what passes for ecumenism is where you just have the institutional leaders of the respective churches who, frankly, don't believe a word of their own religion anyway, getting together, having these big conflabs, and they put out these ridiculous statements where they say, look how much we hold in common. Of course, you hold a lot in common. What you hold in common is that you don't believe the elements of your faith. I think it's far more serious for people who actually do believe the elements of their faith to sit down and talk, to reach out, especially when there are these existential threats right across the West. I ask you, Pastor Webbing, please go ahead.

[Pastor Joel Webbon]

And that's. I was going to say that's. I think that was the failure of, like, a Billy Graham. Graham. So if, if your listeners are. What I still don't understand what's an evangelical? Think Billy Graham. He was the quintessential evangelical Protestant, and he would host these massive crusades, you know, and fill football stadiums. You know, I mean, he was a phenomenon. He was, you know, friends with, with Carter, with all these different, you know, presidents and would frequent the White House. And I mean, he was a huge, huge figure. But the problem is that Billy Graham, who I appreciate in some respect, although I would have some disagreements, the problem is that later on, towards the latter end of his ministry, he was no longer just partnering with Catholics, for instance, the protection of the unborn, or on certain issues politically and culturally, but he started having, in his crusades, he would preach the gospel, he'd have altar calls to salvation and prayer, and he would have Catholic prayers, priest down there at the stage, you know, praying. And when he started to partner in terms of the religious aspects and not just broad like we, you know, Catholics and Protestants, we believe in the triune God, we believe in the Incarnation, we believe in the resurrection, all these different things. But they started to partner on how we're saved and these kinds of things. That's where I think he lost some credibility and where it began to get off the rails. And so I actually appreciate what you just said, Ben, because a lot of guys aren't willing to be honest about that. It sounds like you're devout in your faith and you would have sharp disagreements with me, I would have sharp disagreements with you. But we could do something like this, this show and have a reasonable degree of alignment. And then at the same time, you know, if I was like, hey, I'm going to tomorrow, I'm going to become, you know, the priest of your parents parish, you would say, we love you, Joel, but heck, no. No, you're not qualified. You're not. No, you don't get to be. And I think that it's the conflating of categories where alliances that may have been well meaning initially become compromised. And so what I'm saying is Catholics and Protestants have real disagreements theologically, but where we align to save the country politically I think is absolutely not only permissible, but commendable and vital.

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