A Conversation With Dr. Phil

Summary

Podcast Summary: Barely Famous – "A Conversation With Dr. Phil"

Host: Kail Lowry
Guest: Dr. Phil McGraw
Date: March 20, 2026
Platform: PodcastOne

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Episode Overview

In this engaging and candid episode of Barely Famous, host Kail Lowry welcomes Dr. Phil McGraw for a wide-ranging conversation about his television legacy, personal philosophy, the role of social media and technology in his career, addiction psychology, major cultural moments, and current topics like true crime and cancel culture. The discussion is unfiltered, often humorous, and deeply insightful about both Dr. Phil’s career and the culture at large.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Dr. Phil’s Evolving Career & Impact of Technology

• Dr. Phil recounts the drastic change in media and social issues since the start of his show in 2002, highlighting how the introduction of smartphones and social media have fundamentally shifted family and societal dynamics ([01:09]).

  • Quote:
    "When I did my first show...the first text message had never been sent. Think about how much has changed. There was no social media then..." (Dr. Phil, [01:26])

• He attributes his show's longevity to keeping content relevant and listening to audience feedback:

  • Quote:
    "We were really good at listening to our audience and letting them tell us what our content should be. And that’s what I’m doing now." (Dr. Phil, [01:18])

The Real-Life Underground Community of Las Vegas

• Dr. Phil confirms the existence of people living in tunnels underneath Las Vegas ([06:19]):
  • The team sometimes helped underground dwellers reconnect with families, though, as Dr. Phil notes:
    "Sometimes we would find their family...and decide they're better in the tunnel under Las Vegas... Anybody would have run away." (Dr. Phil, [07:13])
  • These communities are complex: "A lot of them have income, a lot of them have jobs, and they live underground." ([07:54])

Dr. Phil’s Psychology Credentials & Philosophy

• He outlines his education — Bachelor’s, Master’s, PhD, and postdoctoral training in forensic psychology — and early clinical practice ([09:30]).
• Dr. Phil was known for being direct and action-oriented:
  • Quote:
    "I had a two-year waiting list because people loved getting in, getting to it, getting a solution...But...I just. My heart wasn’t in it." ([10:31]-[10:59])
• He was particularly poor at marriage counseling, by his own admission:
  • Memorable Moment:
    "I was the worst marital therapist in the world. Absolutely everybody I talked to got a divorce." ([16:40])

Connections Between Law, Medicine, and Television

• Dr. Phil explains how his forensic psychology background and experience in high-stakes legal cases led to TV:
  • He started Courtroom Sciences, designing mock trials and jury strategies ([18:46]).
  • Eventually, he combined medical, psychological, and legal expertise on TV.

The TV Doctor Phenomenon

• Dr. Phil was a pioneer among TV doctors:
  • Quote:
    "Do you feel like you kind of set the bar...Then there was Dr. Drew, Dr. Oz...But I think you were the first one..." (Kail, [23:10])
  • Launching “The Doctors” show with his son, Jay ([23:35])

The Show’s Legacy: Impact and Ethics

• Dr. Phil’s most rewarding aspect of his show has been giving a voice to those without one, especially children caught in family turmoil or victims struggling with addiction ([25:10]).

• On being direct with guests:

  • Quote:
    "If they go to all that trouble [to be on the show]...I owe it to them to tell them the truth as I see it...even if they may not want to hear it." ([30:50])

Notable Cultural Moments

• Danielle Bregoli (Cash Me Outside Girl):

  • Dr. Phil reflects on the viral phenomenon and expresses well wishes, even as the family dynamic became too complex to continue involvement ([33:06]-[33:38]).

• Addiction and Readiness for Help:

  • Dr. Phil explains the psychology of change:
    "Unless you can see that [an addiction] is interfering with something you care more about, you'll never be motivated to stop." ([36:13]-[38:40])
  • The show provided $30 million in treatment scholarships but only for those ready to pursue real change ([34:12]).

Parenting, Motivation, and Human Behavior

• Dr. Phil describes being fascinated since age 12 by “why people do what they do and don’t do what they don’t do,” emphasizing the importance of understanding individual motivations or “currency” ([39:07]-[41:29]).

On ‘Evil’ and Environmental Influence

• Dr. Phil believes environment plays a major role in shaping people who become “evil” ([43:53]).

Family, Crew Loyalty, and Workplace Leadership

• Explains his “Family First” policy for crew:

  • Quote:
    "If you’ve got kids...be there. Don’t be here. Be there...Family first. Be there." ([53:14])
  • Credits this philosophy for the unusual loyalty and longevity of his team ([52:23]-[55:25]).

• On taking pride in meaningful work:

  • "We're talking about things that matter to people who care...and I'm proud of that." ([57:46]).

High-Profile Cases & Producer Dedication

• Dr. Phil describes the heavy commitment his team made to guests, citing the Michelle Knight (Ariel Castro) case and others involving the Innocence Project and abuse survivors ([59:46]-[63:16]).

Transition to Podcasting & True Crime

• Discusses his new podcast series, highlighting the difference between the Dr. Phil interview show and his “Mystery and Murder” true crime format ([63:16]-[64:44]).
• Loves utilizing forensic training and bringing in law enforcement experts ([64:44]).

Deep Dive: The Idaho Four and Criminal Psychology

• Dr. Phil shares analysis of the Idaho Four murder case, suggesting a sexual and personal motive behind the killings ([65:33]-[67:18]).

Industry Reflections: Epstein, Cancel Culture, and Due Process

• Strongly condemns the actions of Jeffrey Epstein and criticizes those high-profile associates “dumb or arrogant” enough to be involved ([68:36]-[71:36]).
  • "How do you not know that he owns your ass from that moment forward?" ([69:01])
• Argues against painting all associates with the same brush (“cancel culture”) and stresses need for due process ([71:43]-[75:27]):
  • Quote:
    "You can't paint everybody with the same brush...I don't think they should be painted with the same brush. Now maybe they were less than vigilant..." ([71:43])
  • "Due process is really important. Check the facts. And when you get a mob mentality, there's no fact checking." ([75:27])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (With Timestamps)

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|------------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:26 | Dr. Phil | "When I did my first show...the first text message had never been sent..." | | 07:13 | Dr. Phil | "Sometimes...we would decide they're better in the tunnel under Las Vegas..." | | 10:31 | Dr. Phil | "I was more directive. I thought, you can spend six months, a year...or you could help them figure things out..." | | 16:40 | Dr. Phil | "I was the worst marital therapist in the world. Absolutely everybody I talked to got a divorce." | | 25:10 | Dr. Phil | "I think it was giving a voice to people that didn’t have it." | | 30:50 | Dr. Phil | "I owe it to them to tell them the truth as I see it, even if they may not want to hear it." | | 33:06 | Dr. Phil | "I thought it was one of those just quirks. It just, you know, it was like a meme." | | 36:13 | Dr. Phil | "If it’s interfering with your healthy goals...that’s abnormal...Only when you can see that...will you be motivated to stop." | | 39:07 | Dr. Phil | "Since I was 12 years old, I’ve been focused on figuring out why people do what they do and don’t do what they don’t do." | | 53:14 | Dr. Phil | "It’s family first here...[if] they look out and that seat’s empty, they'll remember that the rest of their lives." | | 57:46 | Dr. Phil | "We're talking about things that matter to people who care...and I'm proud of that." | | 69:01 | Dr. Phil | "If you're going to this deal...and there are underage girls there...how do you not know he owns you from that point forward?"| | 75:27 | Dr. Phil | "Due process is really important...when you get a mob mentality, there's no fact checking." |

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Dr. Phil’s Career Evolution & Media Changes – [01:09] – [04:37]
• Las Vegas Tunnel Communities – [05:33] – [09:22]
• Credentials & Philosophy of Practice – [09:30] – [16:07]
• Show Legacy & Directness with Guests – [25:10] – [34:12]
• Addiction, Motivation, and Readiness to Change – [34:12] – [39:07]
• Crew Loyalty & “Family First” Ethos – [52:23] – [55:25]
• Notable True Crime Cases – [59:46] – [63:16]
• Transition to Podcasting & Forensics – [63:16] – [64:44]
• Epstein, High-Profile Scandals, Cancel Culture – [68:36] – [75:27]
• Closing Remarks and Where to Find Dr. Phil – [75:38] – [76:44]

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Overall Tone & Takeaways

The tone is forthright, warm, and tinged with Dr. Phil’s signature blend of empathy and tough love. Kail brings her trademark candidness and direct questions, creating space for Dr. Phil to share both personal anecdotes and professional insights. The conversation is unafraid to go into uncomfortable or controversial territory, balancing entertainment with real talk about human behavior, addiction, celebrity, and society.

For New Listeners:
This episode provides a sweeping yet personal look into Dr. Phil’s ethos, impact, and legacy. It will appeal to anyone intrigued by pop culture, psychology, or the behind-the-scenes reality of running a major media empire—and anyone interested in direct analysis of addiction, family systems, and current social phenomena.

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Where to Listen:

• Dr. Phil's podcasts are available on PodcastOne, YouTube, and all major streaming platforms.
• Watch “Envoy TV” for Dr. Phil’s latest television content ([75:44]).

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Final Word:
"We’re talking about things that matter to people who care...and I’m proud of that." – Dr. Phil ([57:46])

Transcript

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[Dr. Phil McGraw]

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[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

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[Dr. Phil McGraw]

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[Dr. Phil McGraw]

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[Dr. Phil McGraw]

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[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

so excited for this episode with Dr. Phil. And if you haven't already listened to his podcast, you can listen at the Dr. Phil podcast or mystery and murder analysis by Dr. Phil.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Welcome to the show.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Things are going to get weird. It's your fave Villain K, and you're listening to Barely Famous.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

All right, y', all, welcome back to another episode of Barely Famous podcast. I did not have Dr. Phil on my 2026 bingo card, but I'm very excited to have you on my show.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Well, I'm glad to be here.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

So, first of all, what have you

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

been up to in the last few years?

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Well, you know, I was 21 years on CBS in syndication, and at that point I decided, you know, I wanted to do something different. Still in business with cbs. We still do things together, but I have my own network now called Envoy, and it's going way better than I thought it would and could not be more excited about that. So I'm still doing the Dr. Phil show, but it's evolved. And I think that's how I stayed on the air as long as I did. We. We were really good at listening to our audience and letting them tell us what our content should be. And that's what I'm doing now. And it really has evolved across the 21 years, if you can imagine. I did my first show in September of 2002, one year after 9, 11. And it's hard to imagine, but when I did my first show, the first text message had never been sent. Think about how much has changed. Yeah, we didn't even have text messages. There was no social media then. Kids weren't going out and posting things on the Internet that lived forever. There were no Internet scams. There were no Internet predators. There was no cyberbullying.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Right.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

And about 08 or 09, that's when smartphones came into vogue. And that changed everything because all of those things started being challenges that families had to face. And so we had to evolve and start dealing with that. And then changes just keep happening and happening and happening and you know, same thing now. I think people now are a lot more because of the Internet and having news at fingertip 24 hours a day. I think people are much more dialed into social issues and news and stuff than we were 25 years ago when you waited for the 5 o' clock news on the network and see what happened. And now. And also if somebody gets some crazy conspiracy idea, it can spread like wildfire on the Internet.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

It's scary.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Which didn't happen then you could have some mouth breather in some country bumpkin town, have some weird theory it would spread among the county maybe, but not globally. And now it can just move like wildfire.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Funny enough. So I grew up watching the Dr. Phil show when we had cable. When I was 14 or 15, I wrote into the Dr. Phil show because I wanted you to help me find my dad. And I didn't get a response, but obviously I didn't know what I was doing, so I might have emailed the wrong person. But I thought that was. It's interesting because that was around the time that smartphones became a thing. And I found out that you could even write into a show. You know, I didn't know anything about the Internet. We didn't have a computer. So I went to my friend's house and I like tried to email. I tried to email you.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

I'm sorry we didn't connect.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

That's okay. I ended up getting. I was on teen mom for 13 years. And so through that, my aunt found me. Right before that, my aunt found me and I ended up meeting my dad. But it would have been cool if we would have done it on the Dr. Phil Show.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

How'd it go when you met your dad?

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

It was interesting. It was, you know, my family sent me to Texas here. He's born and raised in Texas and sent me here by myself, no adults. And MTV filmed it. And I met him on national television for the first time. So it was a wild ride. And then I never saw him again until September or two weeks before he died. And so definitely a wild ride.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

But I just say all that to

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

say that that was during the time that you're describing of like the smartphones and you know, the, the rise of social media. So I could imagine that some of social media probably really, really helped the Dr. Phil show in some ways. Right?

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Yeah. Well, people were able to connect better and we were able to do things like that and locate people, find people, and find out about people. Because we had a lot of requests like that, and we would do a lot of research before we made a decision whether to pursue it or not. Like, for example, there's a whole underground in Las Vegas. And I mean literal underground, you hear underground as a euphemism. But there is a whole tunnel system under Las Vegas, and there is a whole community that lives underground.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

It's confirmed. Because I saw that on Instagram yesterday, and I thought it was AI.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Oh, no, no. There are a lot of people of all ages that live in these tunnels under Las Vegas. And we actually found some of those people. And our goal was to figure out what their story was and see if we could reconnect them with their families. And sometimes we would find this person in the underground, then find their family, and with the idea of reconnecting them, and sometimes we would find the person in the tunnel, go find their family, and decide they're better in the tunnel under Las Vegas.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

No way.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Because their family is so dysfunctional, Some of them had run away because of brutality and incest and all sorts of things. And we'd look at it and say, hell, anybody would have run away. They're truly better off here than they are reconnecting with their family. And. And so we would back off and not do it, and we would leave it to the person. Of course, we'd tell them, we did find your family. We know where they are and understand why you ran away. We think maybe we'll leave it up to you. But they go, yeah, no, we don't want to do that.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Do they have cell phones?

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Oh, yeah, they have cell phones. They have. A lot of them have income, a lot of them have jobs, and they live underground. Live underground.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Why?

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

You know, a lot of them started out there, and that's where they made relationships and bonds, and there is a. A whole connection community where it's where they want to be. And a lot of them would come out and then they'd go back because they thought, you know, I feel safer here. I feel better here. And so that's just where they preferred to be.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

That's so interesting. I. I couldn't imagine. Have you gone down there at all?

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

I have.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

I did not. I really thought it was AI Dr. Phil. I genuinely. I just scrolled by. I, like, kind of read the caption, and I just kept scrolling because I thought it was fake.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

And I don't know what is on Instagram about it, but I do know in real life, there Are people that in some of those tunnels and some of them are drainage, some of them are service for the Vegas community. But there are people that live there. And we've been in there, we've had our producers in there, and a lot of them are. There are some mentally ill people in there, but then there are other people that. It's just the choice they made. That's where they want to be.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Interesting. Can we backtrack a little bit and talk about your credentials and that you are a doctor and how you even got on tv?

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Yeah, there was a, there was an article in Parade magazine, you know, that Sunday magazine newspaper where a couple was having a big argument about whether I was actually a doctor or just played one on TV and they argued it out and they decided I just played one on tv. It was the deal. But no, I did, I did actually go to school. I have a Bachelor's, Master's, PhD postdoctoral fellowship in forensic psychology.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Okay.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

So, yeah, I practiced for a good while and then just really wasn't for me.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

What was that like? What were you going through when you decided, okay, I'm doing this, but it's not everything I thought it would be.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Yeah, it was everything I thought it would be. I didn't think I would like it from the get go. I thought, I didn't think I had the temperament for it and I really didn't.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

What do you mean by that?

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Well, you know, I think there are different models of therapy and you can be really directive or you can be kind of passive, like, how does that make you feel? How does that make you feel? I was more directive. I thought, you can spend six months and a year, two years, three years, people would be in therapy in a supportive sort of way, or you could help them figure things out and give them some action oriented steps. And I was much more action oriented. And I know colleagues used to say, you're moving too fast, you're going to run out of. Which was absolutely not true. I had a two year waiting list because people loved getting in, getting to it, getting a solution that they could own and go out and implement it. But I know there came a point where it was Christmas break and Robin and I were down at my clinic and we were kind of messing around. She was kind of decorating and this, that and the other. And I went into my assistant's office and the book was there and I started thumbing through it and there wasn't a 15 minute break for months, starting again in January. And I thought, I don't want to do this. I just. My heart wasn't in it. I remember when I got out of graduate school, finished my internship residency, all the things that you have to do. I remember telling Robin my philosophy was to market my education in a non traditional way. I didn't want to be a face in the crowd. And God bless those who do. I mean corner therapists that you just hang out their shingle and work with kids, adults, families, whatever. God bless them because I think they are really the heartbeat of society in many ways for helping people that need it. But it just wasn't for me.

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[Dr. Phil McGraw]

I was the worst marital therapist in the world. Absolutely everybody I talked to got a divorce.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

I don't know if I should laugh

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

or be upset, but I just didn't have the patience for it. I sit and talk to them and I'd sit there for five minutes and go, my God, I can't stand either one of you. No wonder you're Getting a divorce. I just. It's like, look, you just met randomly and you're making each other miserable for five years. You work this out or quit. I mean, and I do think we get divorced in America too fast. I've been married 50 years this coming August, so I have to say I'm probably the exception. It proves the rule, but, yeah. And my parents were married for over 50 years. Robin's parents were married for over 50 years. And we'll be married 50 years in August if we make it that far. If I don't get hit by a truck or something.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Say that.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Yeah. But I just. I didn't have the temperament for it. There were better people suited for that.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Sure.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

When I went through. You get trained in different areas, like clinical, which is where you deal with, you know, anxiety and neuroses, psychoses, all that sort of thing. And then. And I did that. I've finished the clinical core. But we also had a program in behavioral medicine, and that's medical psychology. That's where your psychological functioning and your physiological functioning interact. And they truly do interact. And I completed that core as well. In fact, I did my doctoral thesis on the treatment of rheumatoid arthritis rather than something psychological. And my particular emphasis was on brain and central nervous system. So I dealt a lot with closed head injuries and spinal cord injuries and that sort of thing.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Sure.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

And that got me. If you have an injury, like on the job or in a car wreck or something, you break an arm or a leg or whatever, you know, it's usually a few hundred thousand dollars, they settle it. It doesn't go to trial. But if you have a brain injury or a spinal cord injury, it can now be a whole life plan. Because if somebody's a paraplegic or a quadriplegic and they're 20 years old, they're going to be in a wheelchair requiring life care for the next 40, 50 years. Now the damages are in the millions of dollars. So it does go to trial. And because that was an area that I had really put a lot of emphasis on, I wound up testifying in a lot of cases on that. And so lawyers started saying, we really like the clarity with which you explain these things. They have an expert on their side. Can you help us design the cross examination for them? I say, okay, okay. And then they say, our corporate representative doesn't testify very well. Do you think you could help us prepare him or her to do a better job on the witness stand? And pretty soon it got to where I was spending more time with the trial team than my actual testimony. And you can't do both. And so that's what caused me to launch a trial science firm called Courtroom Sciences. And so I spent a lot of time in the litigation arena across a couple of decades in helping lawyers evaluate cases, do trial strategy. We did mock trials. We'd try the case before it went to actual trial. We do help with seating a jury. We would have a shadow jury in the courtroom during the trial. Like if there were seven women and five men on a jury, we would have seven women and five men in the gallery that match the jury in terms of age, gender, education, occupation, religion, match them in every way we possibly could. Because you can't talk to the jury during the trial, but you can talk to their surrogates during the trial and find out how they're seeing it, which gives you some idea of how the jury is likely seeing it. And that can guide you on what you need to spend more time on, less time on whether you need to settle the case, whether you're winning the case, not winning the case. We did witness preparation. We did every manner of trial.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

So you said a little bit ago that you didn't really want to do psychology, so why not go into law instead of medical?

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Well, that kind of gave me the best of both worlds. And I couldn't decide whether I wanted to go into medicine, psychology, or the law. And as it turned out, I did medical psychology, clinical psychology, and then I did a postdoctoral fellowship in forensic psychology or psychology in the law. So I actually did all three. Did all three, which really helped me with the Dr. Phil show, because I had a real broad lane of things I could deal with. And let me tell you, when you do 175 shows a year, you need a broad lane, or you start lapping yourself really fast, you need a broad range of content, or you run out of things to talk about. And if you can talk about things in human functioning behavior, psychological, you can deal with legal things, you can deal with medical aspects of how it all comes together. You got a pretty broad lane. So that really helped me across a couple of decades.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Do you feel like you kind of set the bar for other doctors that then became on tv? Because I think you were the first one I ever knew about. Then there was Dr. Drew, Dr. Oz. The doctors like things like that, But I think you were the first one, right?

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Yeah. And the Doctors was also our show.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Oh, I was on that show, yeah.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Really?

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Yeah. For my teeth.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Oh, is that right?

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Yeah. My son, Jay Launched that show.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

You're kidding.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

No.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Oh, so we could have met years ago then.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. We were on stage 29 on the Paramount lot and the Doctors was on stage 30. We're right next door to each other.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Oh, cool.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

And my son Jay launched that show and we were the two longest running shows in the history of Paramount on the Paramount lot. Wow.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

I actually didn't know that. Now Teen mom is on Paramount, so we're all in the same family. I guess I'm not on the show anymore, but yeah, that's. I think Paramount owns or owned MTV or it was all under the same umbrella or whatever.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Yeah, it still is.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

How interesting.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Yeah, Dr. Oz told me one time. I've known Mimit for a long, long time, and he told me one of the biggest challenges. He's an invasive cardiologist and a really good one, by the way, but that's a very narrow lane. And he's. One of his biggest challenges was he knows a lot of general medicine, but his expertise was in a very narrow area. And he said, wow, harder than you think.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

I also went on Dr. Oz. That's so crazy. We went on Teen Mom. Macy and I went on Dr. Oz from Teen Mom. But I'm surprised they never had teen mom on Dr. Phil, because I feel like that would have been right up your alley.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Yeah. It seems like we did some things with Teen mom, and I don't remember what it was, but maybe Amber. I don't remember.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

That's so interesting.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

I did. 20,000 guests across the.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Oh, yeah. So you can't remember everybody, surely. But what would you say is your favorite part of doing Dr. Phil? The show?

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

You know, I think it was giving a voice to people that didn't have it. You know, if you have, particularly children that were caught up in a really combative family where mom and dad were just barking at each other endlessly. It was a highly contentious relationship and the kids were caught in the crossfire. I really got a lot of satisfaction out of calming those situations down because, you know, there were times when there were five, six, seven, eight year old kids that if they had the ability, you just know, they would say, oh, I wish you people would just shut up.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

No doubt.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Will you just zip it? You are just driving me crazy, you assholes. And, you know, I could kind of say that for them. And a lot of times I would have these contentious and sometimes abusive families. And it really helped, I think, to be able to give them a voice. And do that. And we dealt an awful lot with people of all ages that were into drugs. And I think the opioid epidemic got so out of hand and being able to help those people find their way back was really satisfying. Yeah, you know, I really enjoyed that.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

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[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Some of the girls that you know were on the show also had issues with, you know, substance abuse and things like that. So I could imagine. But I think people could really appreciate how direct you were with all your guests on the show. And even today on my show, I have a hard time confronting guests with like the harder questions and asking the uncomfortable questions. But you seem to never have an issue with that.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Well, you know, my feeling was, look, I'm out there and I figure, I think somebody told me one time that the average guest that made it on to the platform had written in an average of 27 times, which is a hate. But the point is they worked really hard to get there. And my attitude was if they go to all that trouble and then they open themselves up and they pack up, get in the car, go to the airport, fly across the United States, come out there, go through all the pre interviews, do everything that because it was a very rigorous process that we put them through and then get there and tell me their issues. I owe it to them to tell them the truth. As I see it, they may not agree with it. That's okay. I'm not the repository of all knowledge. But they at least owe. I at least owe it to them to do my homework and then be straight with them because they're not going to be there for that long and I need to at least ask the hard questions, get to the bottom line and tell them what I think. And look, I never was under the impression I was doing 30 minute cures, hour long cures, but if I could identify the issues for them and point them in the right direction, then I'd move the ball forward. And sometimes that involves telling people what they don't want to hear. You have parents that are enabling their kids, particularly if it was a drug addict or something and they're giving them money and stuff like that. That's not helping. And somebody had to tell them the truth. If not me, then who?

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

That brings me to my next question. Danielle Bregoli. How. What were your thoughts when that took the entire world by storm after she was on your show?

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

You know, I thought it was one of those just quirks. It just, you know, it was like a meme.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

That just caught on. And I, I thought it was just a kind of a warp in the cosmos. And she did really well.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

I would say so.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

And then I think family dynamics got in the way and I haven't talked to her since. Wish her well.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Yeah, I mean, I think people still talk about that to this day.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Oh, yeah.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

It's insane.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Yeah. And it was like, I say it was just a. Was kind of like an Internet phenomenon. Internet memes. Yeah.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

And I think, I mean, I worked with her 2018 on Something and I mean, she's still. I think she made like $50 million one year after your show, which is insane. So when you would have a guest on that had substance abuse or anything like that, would you offer treatment

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

if. Depending on where they were, you know, there's a certain degree of readiness. You got to be ready.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

And if, if somebody was ready, we would sometimes make it available if they wanted to do it. And that was between them and the treatment facility. But we would arrange for them to have it available on a scholarship basis where it didn't cost them anything. And I think we provided over the years over $30 million in options for people after the show. We never, we never talked about it in terms of. We didn't follow It. We never. We followed HIPAA guidelines. We never got feedback from the facilities. We didn't have anything to do with the facilities. If we thought they were ready, we might give them a facility option, and then we'd let them talk about it between themselves. And we were completely out of it.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Okay.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

But they had to be ready.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Yeah. What do you think that is? Like, when. So I'm a big energy drink girly. Right. But I'm not ready to quit. So, like, I think about, like, my mom has substance abuse issues, so I'm like, I. I can't understand the psychology about. I couldn't before I started drinking energy drinks, and now I'm like, oh, I get it now. Like, I don't want to quit them. So I would imagine that's sort of like, on a. On a much higher scale for, you know, addicts and people who have issues. So what do you think it is that we're just not ready to commit?

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Well, you know, there's. There's a point where there's. People talk about normal and abnormal if. If you go to the library, which is a big book with buildings, a big building with books in it, most people don't know what that is anymore because we can pick up our phone and look up anything.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

I mean, I bet my grandkids have never been in a library. Seriously, I bet they've never been in a library. That's one of the great things about the Internet. If you fact check what you're looking at, we have so much information at fingertips. But if you went to the library and you went to the abnormal psychology section, rows and rows of books and books on abnormal. Go to the normal section. There's probably one pamphlet on the bottom. Nobody knows what normal is, what's normal. So I've always defined something normal. Abnormal is if something is interfering with your healthy life, if it's interfering with your healthy goals, if it's getting in your way. And normal is if it's facilitating your healthy goals in your healthy life. And people only get ready to make a change if something is really interfering with what they truly want in their life. Healthy, like, you know, you're a mom. If you were doing something that in a moment of clarity, you could say, this is really interfering with the quality of my parenting, my being there for my child. Or if there was something you were doing where you could say, this is really ruining my health and I want to live. Unless you can see that and say that why would you be motivated to stop something more powerful than the Satisfaction you get for the thing you're doing, whether it's gambling or exercising too much or energy drinks or heroin or whatever. Unless you can see that it's interfering with something you care more about, you'll never be motivated to stop. And only when you can see that with clarity where you can say, look, I don't want to do this shit anymore. This is ruining things that I truly care about. I'm not telling you I can stop. I'm just telling you I realize it's ruining things I care about. Okay, now that person is probably. They talk about, well, you got to hit bottom. Maybe, maybe not. But if you have a moment of clarity where you realize there's something more important to me than this, I just don't know how to stop, then they're ready.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Okay, so it's possible that nobody. That some people never get there.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Yeah. If they don't have anything more important, then. I've spent most of my. Really since I was 12 years old. It's strange things for a 12 year old kid to focus on, but Since I was 12 years old, I've been focused on figuring out why people do what they do and don't do what they don't do. That has been a obsession fascination of mine. Figuring out why people do what they do and don't do what they don't do.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Was that hard as a parent because you have kids that you don't understand why they do what they do. And maybe they don't think the same way as you.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Yeah, it was a frustration that they didn't see it the way I wanted them to sometimes. But I did understand why. And look, everybody has a different currency. Different things motivate me than Isaiah and you. We all have different things that make us get up in the morning and, and go about our day. Yeah, we have different currencies. Some people it's monetary, some people it's social. Some people it's spiritual. Some people it's emotional. I mean, there's. We all have different kinds of currency. It's not just one kind of currency. It's not just monetary. People don't just do what they do for a paycheck. There are people that do things because they want to make the world better. They want to. You know, I love animals. I do a lot of stuff with animals because I love animals. My God, we're feeding six cats right now that just live in the neighborhood. Honest to God. I can show you a picture. We got six bowls of cat food on our patio where we're feeding these neighborhood cats. I just love animals. Different things motivate different people. But think about this. If you can figure out why people do what they do and don't do what they don't do, you got a huge advantage on the rest of the world. Because if you understand their currency and you can pull those levers and you're not an evil person, you can pull them in a positive way, you have a big impact in this world.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

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[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

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[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

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[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

you said if they're not evil, do you feel like people are born evil or do you think life makes people?

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

I think there's a big environmental component to it. I think they're. I'm not sure I understand it fully, but I think there's a huge environmental component for sure to it. A big learning component.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

You said that your son produced a show and you were talking about getting on TV and stuff. How did your family and your wife react when you got your own TV show, like daytime tv, and now you. And you're still in this industry. Like how. What was their reaction to it?

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

You know, I never had any desire to be on television.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

It just happened.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

I never had any desire. In fact, I was involved in a lot of really high profile situations and circumstances through the litigation arena that I was in. We represented probably half of the Fortune 100, all of the studios, all the movie studios. So I was involved in a lot of really high profile situations and never gave one word of interview ever, across all the years that I was involved in this high profile litigation. You know, press would be all over these big cases. They'd say, you're inside the rail, you're at the council table, you're talking to all these. Who are you? And my response was always the same. I'm not here.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Why?

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

And I would just walk away because I had no. I didn't want to be known because the other side was always trying to get our work product, okay? And it was attorney client work product. It was non discoverable. They wanted to know the results of our mock trial. They wanted to know what our research had shown. They wanted to know. And it was attorney client privilege protected. So they couldn't get it. They'd try. They'd go back in chambers and they'd say, never one time did they penetrate it. And I never wanted to say anything to the press because something could be construed as waiving attorney client privilege. I never said a word. Avoided them every way that I could. And, you know, I represented Oprah in the mad cow case up In Amarillo. I don't know if you're old enough to remember that.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

I, in researching that was the only way I, like, knew about it. But, yeah, I didn't remember.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

That's how I wound up getting into television. I mean, she called and said, I'd like for you to come be on the show. She had made a commitment to her viewers that said, anything I find that has a profound impact on my life, whether it's a hair dryer or a diet or a fashion or a doctor or whatever, I'll share it with my audience.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

And that was you?

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

And she felt like I fell in that category. And a few weeks after the trial was over, they sued her for several billion dollars. The cattle growers and I was on the trial team. And so the producers called a short time after the trial was over and asked me to be on the show. And I said, not really.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

You said no?

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

No. I said, absolutely no. And shortly after that, she phone rang again. She called and she said, she's just dying laughing. So you don't say no to Oprah. Come on, man. What do you mean? I said, I don't want to be on this show, and I'm not going to be here anyway. I'm taking my boy scuba diving. She said, well, how about we wait till you get back? And I said, so I did it. And the reaction was pretty profound because I don't think anybody had ever been on that really had a really tell it like it is sort of approach. And then I guess as the old saying goes, the rest is history. I started being on every Tuesday for four or five years, and then we launched the Dr. Phil Show.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

And do you still have a relationship with her today?

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Oh, sure. Yeah.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

You do?

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Oh, yeah.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

That's so cool. I love that.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

We've known each other since 1996, so that's 96 to 06. 16. 30 years.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

30 years.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Yeah. I was born in 92. So, yeah, when I was 4, y' all were becoming fast friends.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

She's amazing. People ask me if she's nice as she seems on tv, and I say, no, this TV is not big enough to capture her real Persona. I mean, she is an amazing human being.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

She's in la, right?

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Yeah, she's up in. Was it San or Santa Barbara?

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

And when you launched your own network, she already. She has a network, too. So do you guys work together at all on your network or is it kind of separate?

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Yeah, it's. It's separate, but I'm still on the Oprah Winfrey network.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Okay. Okay.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Which I don't think she has much to do with anymore. I think she sold it all to Discovery.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Oh, nice.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

I think. I don't.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

I don't know about any of that, but, I mean, that's really cool that you guys have maintained a relationship.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Oh, yeah, she's the best. She's absolute best.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Do you have any regrets about doing your own show or agreeing to do the Oprah show?

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Oh, not at all. You know, there's. It's been an amazing experience and journey. There are pros and cons to it, but the pros outweigh the cons a thousand to one, for sure. The cons are you live in the public eye and the tabloids are all over you all the time. And that's irritating, but the cons are minuscule. If you're in private practice, you're talking to people one at a time. And when I'm doing what I do on the show, you're talking to people millions at a time.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Right.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

I mean, literally millions at times, it can be depending on, you know, the topics and what you're doing. We talking to, you know, 35, 45 million people a week.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Are you serious?

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

So. And then for you to have stayed in this industry as long as you have, like, that's incredible. I think today, when you think about people who are on TV or, you know, reality tv, even scripted, holding on to the longevity is. Is really, really tough, especially now. And so then you launched your podcast. Right. And people have followed you over there and you've maintained that, too.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Yeah. You know, I had no idea when I first decided to do it. I really didn't even think about whether it would be for a couple of years or what. I certainly didn't think about consciously doing it for 25 years. I mean, who thinks about that? Hollywood's a 13 week town. If you get 13 weeks out there, it's amazing. I had the same executive producer for 21 seasons. I had the same seven cameramen for 21 seasons, the same director, sound people, the same security guards for the entire time. I had five supervising producers who still work with me today.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Really?

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

That executive producer still works? I got the same team I did 25 years ago, still working with me today on the network.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Well, so what is the key to that, though? Like, what is. What is the secret sauce? Because I feel like in this industry, people will. They're. They're all out for themselves and they never want to see someone do better than them. And so it's really hard to maintain people like that.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

You know, I think two things really. I had a philosophy when I started and actually I wrote a book in 2004 called Family first and my philosophy when I started, I sat down with him and I said, guys, look. And you understand, I was like 50 when I started. So if you don't know who you are by the time you're 50, you're never going to find out.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Good to know.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

But I told him when I started, I said, guys, look, it's family first here. If you've got kids and all and they've got a recital or a school play or a football or basketball game or whatever, be there. Just be there. Don't be here. Be there. If you're there and they look out and see you, they might even roll their eyes like, oh my God, don't embarrass me. If they look out and that seats empty, they'll remember that the rest of their lives. Family first. Be there.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

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[Dr. Phil McGraw]

I think anybody you talk to will tell you that I've stayed true to that.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

You're talking about Your crew, like everybody, that whole team.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

And I told them, look, we're not curing cancer here. We're making a TV show. Seriously, it. And so take care of your family, we'll be fine.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

And they never had to worry about losing their jobs to be with their families.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Oh my God, no. I said, and you know what? They never abused it. They never abused it that I know of. I mean, and second, money is paid, but it's never been about the money. You can't pay people enough to do what my team does. I've gone on other shows, other talk shows and stuff, and I would come back and say, we spent 30 minutes talking about how to boil an egg. And we're over here talking about how to dismantle paranoid schizophrenia in a family member. And we're flying in experts from Miami and New York and they're coming with their psychiatrist and we're talking about the warning signs of paranoid schizophrenia, how to deal with this, when to seek help. And they're talking about how to boil an egg. And it took them three hours to shoot the show. We averaged 47 minutes to get a 42 minute show. But they believed so much in what we were doing. I said, there's different kind of currency. And they would tell you, you know, I went home at Christmas break and I was proud to tell my extended family I work on the Dr. Phil show. And we're doing things that matter. We're talking about things that matter to people who care. And I'm proud of that. And like I said, you couldn't pay them enough. To every show we did, there was a notebook 250 pages thick because we did an interview, a structured interview. Then we did a longitudinal history, cross sectional history, medical history, psychological history, interviewed collaterals. We never booked anybody on the show that was in therapy unless we contacted their therapist and got their permission in writing for them to be on the show. And they had to commit that they would continue to see their patient after the show. 20,000 guests, not one time did we ever see anybody in therapy unless we contacted the therapist and got their written permission. I mean, we did it right, we still do it right. Same thing. And you know, they really appreciated that. They understood we're doing important things here.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

But it sounds like you were doing important things and also treating your crew with, you know, as humans and with respect. Because I think so often, you know, people in their day to day jobs, their employers don't give a shit if their kid has a game or they're having a family crisis or you know, when you said that, it reminded me. I published a book in 2015, and I canceled a book signing in Baltimore for my son's soccer game. And he. I think he might have been, like, four or five years old, so. And the way that I got ripped a new one on social media for that, and I look back and I'm like, I don't know. Like, could I have not made that one soccer game? Maybe. But my kids would maybe remember.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Well, let me tell you, I've. And you do what you can. You know, if you work at a. At a job where you don't have that latitude, you have to do what you can. But I. And don't get me wrong, we worked harder there than probably any show in Hollywood. And people would probably say, you know, that's a great job, but you're going to work harder there than any other show. And they did. That's what I mean, you can't pay them enough to do what they did. We'd have guests that have to. I know we had the first interview with, you know who Ariel Castro was. He was that person in Cleveland that abducted those three girls, Michelle Knight and all, held them captive for 11 years in a house up there.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Yes, yes, I do remember that.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

We did the first interview with Michelle Knight, and two of our producers spent three weeks with her leading up to that interview. I mean, just lived with her for three weeks, taking care of her and working with the judge and with the lawyers. I mean, just went up there and just literally were with her 24 hours a day, getting everything right and getting it set and all. And you can't pay people enough to stop their lives and go do that. But they cared about her. They cared about. And, you know, she. Today is probably worth $20 million because we got her a book deal, we got her a Speaker's Bureau, we got her set up for all the things that she did and took care of her, and they cared about her, and they're still in touch with her. So they, you know, they cared about what they did.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

And. But make a mistake. They worked hard, and they'll tell you they worked hard.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Do you have other guests that you can think of off the top of your head that you, you know, that, you know, your team and your crew and you spent time with and that you still are in touch with today?

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Oh, yeah, We've, you know, I've done. I work with the Innocence Project.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Do you?

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Yeah, yeah. You know, some of these. These guys that we've worked to get off a Death row and out of prison after 30 years. I've got four or five that I'm working with now. We've worked with some of these people that have been held captive in basements by their family. We had one girl that. That is known as the girl in the closet. Her parents kept her locked in a closet for like 12 years. She was eating linoleum off the floor. They put a radio in front of the door to the closet, put a table in front of it, put a radio on the table and left it on all the time. So if anybody came in, they couldn't hear noise from the closet. That's how she learned to speak, from listening to DJs talking. And we interviewed her after she was rescued and she was working with a lot of occupational therapists in Texas that said, when she was on the show, it was the first time. They'd been working with her for two years. I think it was two years. They said it was the first time they had ever seen her smile. And when you see people that have gone through such horrible things and you see them maybe make a turn. Yeah, you don't forget those things.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

I mean, definitely puts things into perspective for people like us. We grew up with really traumatic childhoods and like, seeing stories like that that are. Are even worse. Like, you can't wrap your head around it. No, you can't. But. So you launched your podcast with podcast one, and that's kind of like a different angle with mystery and murder. How do you separate the two? The Dr. Phil show and then mystery and murder.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Yeah, that's fun for me because I like the analytical part of it. It lets me use my forensic training a lot. And, you know, I have the Dr. Phil podcast where I do just straight up interviews with people from every walk of life. And then I have mystery and murder analysis by Dr. Phil. And I I enjoy doing the mystery and murder because I get to go inside the heads of these people that have committed these terrible, terrible crimes and sometimes these unsolved crimes where we break it down and see if we can figure out something that nobody's figured out before.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Right.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

And we've got such great experts that I've worked with over the years. One of our newest experts is Chief John Shell, who just retired from the NYPD and he was chief patrol. He had 34,000 police officers under him and has worked so many cases and has such great command of investigative sciences and stuff. And being able to go back and forth with him on what's been done. Right. What's been Done wrong and all of these things. It's, it's really interesting and people are really fascinated.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Morbid curiosity, like Idaho 4 is the first thing that comes to mind. Like, do you think Brian Coburger did it himself or do you think he had helped?

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

I think he did it himself.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

I'm just. That case is so fascinating to me and I, I don't know that I'll ever get over it. I hope. My theory was always that maybe he had help, but, I mean, you would know better than I would.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Well. And, you know, who knows? But I, I think I, I think the, the certainly the primary crime, I think it was very personal and I think he did it himself. And I think there's a sexual overlay to that crime.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Do you.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

I don't think I've read that theory anywhere.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Yeah. Let me tell you the. I hate it when I sound like a shrink, but I think he had been obsessed with them previously. And when you stab people the way he stabbed them, that's a very sick, personal way to kill somebody.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

And you know, Freud would tell you that penetration is

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

like a sexual. Yeah, interesting. I actually never thought of it that way.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Yeah. And, you know, he's attacks them in bed, he's laying with them, he's laid with them. Yeah, he had. I think it's pretty clear that he killed him in a prone position.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Yeah, I definitely knew that. I just, I, I don't think that I knew that he did any of that. I, maybe I'm on TikTok too much because I just see what's on TikTok.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Yeah. I think there was some real perversion on his part.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

There had to have been.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

You know, what's disturbing is he's a pretty normal looking guy.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Very average. Yeah.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

You just talk about, you know, think about Jeffrey Dahmer and some of these people, these monsters walk among us.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

They do.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

They be standing behind you in the grocery store line.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

There's no horns, there's no tail, there's no flashing red light. They just. They're pretty unremarkable. Right. They're wallpaper.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Until they're not.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Until they're not for sure. The last, like, insane question I want to ask you is you being in this industry for as long as you have, and obviously I'm sure you've seen social media. I don't know how much you get on there, but with AI and things like that and things like the Epstein files coming out and all of the people that have been like, connected to him, what is your take on that sort of being in this industry. I'm sure you've been in rooms with some of the same people that are in the Epstein files.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Well, I'm glad you asked that, really,

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

because I was a little nervous.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

I'm glad you asked that. And fortunately, I never met the guy, never heard of them until the scandal broke out. It was just never in my orbit in any way, thank God.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Thankfully.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

But you know what jumps out at me about this? And I was just talking to Harvey Levin about it on Friday because he's doing a special about it for Fox and Hulu. And Harvey and I work together a lot on these things. He used me as an expert psychological expert on a lot of stuff he does. And you want to talk about Epstein. And I said, yeah, let's do that. But what. One of the things I want to talk about is how dumb or arrogant are these people that get involved with somebody like Jeffrey Epstein. Because think about this. If you're a high profile person like the president of Harvard or the president or whoever, somebody that's really high profile, and you take one step into that room, one step onto that airplane, one step onto that island, how do you not know that he owns your ass from that moment forward? How do you not know that? Okay, if you're going to this deal and there are underage girls there, or even just an orgy with adults, and there are other people there, particularly if you're the biggest fish in the room, meaning you've got the most to lose, how do you not know he owns you from that point forward? Because the leverage that you've given him to blackmail you, extort you, to pressure you, you've just signed away the rest of your life. And that's without realizing these are smart people, successful people, they know right from wrong.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Do you think, though, the people that maybe didn't participate in any of the sexual stuff knew what was going on and still associated with him?

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Well, all right, this is. This is the point that I, that I really have a problem with this cancel culture. You can't paint everybody with the same brush. I have absolutely no doubt that Jeffrey Epstein was a narcissistic, toxic psychopath. And he bought legitimacy by donating millions and millions of dollars to legitimate causes. He donated to legitimate charities. He donated to scientific endeavors that were legitimate. And so therefore he was legit adjacent. He would associate himself with legitimate causes and efforts to allow himself to stand next to validation. Causes and people, and those valid causes and people, probably because they operate in completely different orbits, didn't know about the debauchery and perversion that he traded in. And so you can't paint them with the same brush of a prince. Andrew, who was actually in there, was allegedly having sex with 14 year old underage girls. Somebody that maybe caught a ride from Miami to New York because it was convenient. And somebody they knew said, hey, I'm going up. We got room if you want to hop on. I'm sure it's okay. That's a different situation than somebody that was actually practicing in perversion. And I don't think they should be painted with the same brush. Now, maybe they were less than vigilant in who they were getting on an airplane with or whatever, but there was a. If you weren't doing a deep dive on somebody, there was a side of him, a profile of him that looked pretty legitimate unless you drill down some for sure. And I think there are people that got caught up in that that didn't do anything wrong other than maybe not doing their homework. But how many people do you not do your homework on?

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

I have to be a little apprehensive because we don't know that every single person that was connected in some way was actually participating in the perversion.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Right, right. And you don't know what they did or didn't do. That's what, that's what I worry about. Cancel culture. That's where you're trying things in the court of public opinion without due process.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Have you ever been canceled?

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Oh, they took them. They've been coming after me for 30 years.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

They were canceling you before the cancel culture.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

They were going after me for a long time. But it's just a matter of trying things in the court of public opinion where you don't actually do the homework and find out what the actual facts are. And I think that's tragic.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

I would agree with you.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

I think that's tragic. And I think there are people that have been caught up in some of these cancel culture mob mentalities that have been tragically impacted in an undeserved fashion.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

I would agree.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Due process is really important. Check the facts. And when you get a mob mentality, there's no fact checking. It's just you jump on the bandwagon and run somebody over and that's too bad.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Like you said, tragic. We'll end the episode with, you know, where, where can people listen to your

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

podcasts, you know, on podcast one?

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Yes.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

And, you know, just everywhere that they listen to podcasts, it's on YouTube and everywhere that they find it and Envoy TV is. You can't not find Envoy TV. We're on cable, we're on Samsung. We're on every streaming cable everywhere that you can find us. You can just go to envoytv.com and it'll tell you right where it is in your market and you can watch it. And we're in over 100 million homes already and growing super fast. So you can find a podcast, you can find a TV show. And I hope they do, because we're talking about things that matter to people who care.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

I love that. Thank you for coming on Barely Famous.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

Well, thanks for having me on. This is good. I hope I see you again. Yes, you have to come on my podcast.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Count me in. Thank you so much.

[Dr. Phil McGraw]

You did a great job. Ask some good questions. Thank you. Sa.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

If you guys want to Hear more

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

from Dr. Phil, head over to his podcast, the Dr. Phil Podcast, or Mystery and Murder Analysis by Dr. Phil.

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