Angel Mama ft. Heather Lohmeyer

Summary

Barely Famous Podcast: Angel Mama ft. Heather Lohmeyer
Release Date: April 25, 2025

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Introduction

In this deeply moving episode of Barely Famous, host Kail Lowry engages in a heartfelt conversation with Heather Lohmeyer. Heather opens up about her profound journey through infant loss, the subsequent challenges she and her husband faced, and the unwavering support that helped them navigate their grief. This episode serves as a beacon of hope and understanding for listeners who may be experiencing similar struggles.

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Heather’s Background and Introduction to Kail

Heather and Kail begin by expressing mutual appreciation and support for each other's work. Kail acknowledges Heather's long-time support across various platforms, fostering a warm and welcoming atmosphere for the conversation.

Notable Quote:
Heather: "You guys have really helped change my life, and we'll talk about that a little bit today." [02:15]

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The Heartbreaking Loss of McKinsley

Heather recounts the devastating experience of losing her first child, McKinsley, highlighting the circumstances that led to the stillbirth. At 38 weeks gestation during a severe snowstorm in Kansas, Heather missed her weekly ultrasound, which was not perceived as a significant issue until she failed to feel McKinsley kicking.

Notable Quotes:
Heather: "I didn't feel McKinsley kicking, and so I thought that that was a little odd." [04:00]
Kail: "You sort of still don't have answers..." [09:18]

Heather describes the traumatic moments upon discovering there was no heartbeat, the emotional turmoil, and the distressing hospital procedures that followed, including the decision not to perform a C-section despite McKinsley being in a transverse position.

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Emotional and Psychological Impact

The conversation delves into the intense grief and guilt Heather felt post-loss. She discusses the emptiness of planning a funeral immediately after childbirth and the confusion of connecting life and death moments.

Notable Quote:
Heather: "Our bodies are supposed to be able to give children life. And so when my body didn't do that, it was just really confusing." [10:26]

Heather also shares her struggles with traumatic hallucinations and visions of McKinsley, illustrating the profound psychological impact of her loss.

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Coping Mechanisms and Support Systems

Heather and Kail explore the different ways Heather and her husband, Ben, coped with their grief. While Heather sought support through community groups like the Kitty Gang and eventually entered a treatment facility, Ben turned to alcohol as a means of coping, leading to significant personal challenges.

Notable Quotes:
Heather: "I think the feelings are mutual. So I think I can speak for the entire team when I say that we are so thankful for you." [02:36]
Kail: "I think that you do that. I don't even think that it's... Just you sharing your story and coming on here is paying it forward." [47:32]

Heather emphasizes the importance of community support, highlighting how the Kitty Gang provided critical emotional and financial assistance during her darkest times.

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Healing and Moving Forward

The episode transitions to Heather and Ben's path to healing. Ben acknowledges hitting rock bottom before committing to sobriety, and Heather expresses immense pride in his recovery journey. Together, they celebrate three years of Ben's sobriety and his active role in supporting others in recovery.

Notable Quote:
Heather: "I think it was there a little bit before. It got much worse after I lost McKinsley." [39:53]

Heather discusses how therapy helped her understand her need for control as a manifestation of her grief and how this realization has been pivotal in her healing process.

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Embracing a New Beginning: Welcome Brody

Heather shares the joyous arrival of her second child, Brody, contrasting it with the sorrow of losing McKinsley. She explains the challenges of pregnancy after loss, including heightened anxiety and rigorous medical monitoring to ensure Brody's well-being.

Notable Quotes:
Heather: "I always say, McKinsey will always be my daughter. But how I say it to people is I say I have one angel baby and one earthly baby." [33:56]
Kail: "I have really, really conflicting feelings on them, too." [50:57]

Heather emphasizes the importance of open conversations about infant loss and the need for greater awareness and support for grieving parents.

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Supporting Others and Building Community

Heather underscores the significance of sharing her story to help other parents navigate similar tragedies. She highlights the resources and support systems available through the Kitty Gang and organizations like Bridget's Cradles, which provide handmade cradles and memory keepsakes to families experiencing stillbirths.

Notable Quote:
Heather: "It did change my life. To answer the second part of your question, I know I went a little long on that." [48:36]

Kail and Heather stress the importance of community solidarity and the role of support groups in the healing process, encouraging listeners to reach out and share their experiences.

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Conclusion and Resources

As the episode concludes, Kail and Heather discuss the availability of various resources for those affected by infant loss. They mention Bridget's Cradles, Ashley Oberger's faith-based podcast "Cradled in Hope," and other supportive communities that offer solace and understanding.

Notable Quote:
Heather: "You can find me in any podcast group that has to do with Kale Lowry. So Coffee Convo's podcast group on Facebook." [63:05]

Kail assures listeners that all shared resources will be available in the episode's description, providing easy access to support for anyone in need.

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Key Takeaways

• Understanding Infant Loss: Heather’s story sheds light on the often-overlooked journey of coping with stillbirth and infant loss, emphasizing the need for greater awareness and support.

• Importance of Support Systems: The episode highlights the critical role of community groups like the Kitty Gang in providing emotional and financial support during times of grief.

• Coping with Grief Differently: Heather and Kail discuss how individuals cope with loss in unique ways, underscoring the importance of empathy and understanding within relationships.

• Healing and Moving Forward: The conversation illustrates the path to healing through therapy, sobriety, and the support of loved ones, offering hope to those navigating similar experiences.

• Sharing Stories to Help Others: Heather’s openness in sharing her story serves as inspiration for others to speak out and seek support, fostering a community of understanding and healing.

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Resources Mentioned

• Kitty Gang: A supportive community group for individuals dealing with various personal challenges.
• Bridget's Cradles: bridgetscradles.org
  Provides handmade, crocheted cradles to hospitals for families experiencing stillbirth.
• Cradled in Hope Podcast: Hosted by Ashley Oberger, offering faith-based support for grieving parents.
• Heather’s Social Media: Available through the Kitty Gang and associated podcast groups.

Listeners are encouraged to reach out and utilize these resources for support and community connection.

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This episode of Barely Famous offers a raw and authentic exploration of Heather Lohmeyer’s journey through unimaginable loss, the struggle for healing, and the strength found in community support. It underscores the importance of sharing stories to foster understanding and provide solace to those who need it most.

Transcript

[Heather]

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[Kale Lowry]

No matter how you travel, it's good to have a plan. Some people plan every minute. No sleep, bus, museum, another museum. While others only plan to take it day by day. When it comes to your finances, a plan is just as important. You can count on Credit Karma to give you the insights you need to understand your options so you can take charge of your financial path and find your way to money. Explore how you can make financial progress with confidence. Today. Intuit Credit Karma. Karma you can count on. Welcome to the Shit Show. Things are going to get weird. It's your fave villain, Kale Lowry, and you're listening to Barely Famous. Hello, Heather. Welcome to Barely Famous Podcast.

[Heather]

Hello, Kale.

[Kale Lowry]

I feel like this has been a long time coming.

[Heather]

Agreed.

[Kale Lowry]

Not necessarily this topic, but just having you on the podcast in general because you've been a huge fan and a huge supporter of the shows over the years from Coffee Combos, even Baby Mamas, and now Barely Famous, the Southern Tea Vibing, all of them. And so one, I wanted to say I appreciate you and I love you and I love all the support that you show me and all the girls on the team. So I'm happy to have you.

[Heather]

Thank you so much for having me today. Can we just take a minute and celebrate Killer Network right now? Because I am just so happy for you. I was in tears last night. Just so happy and excited for all the downloads that you have hit. It is truly just amazing what you are doing with your company.

[Kale Lowry]

Thank you. It would not be possible without all of the girls in the team. Kristen, Alessandra, it's been, you know, really incredible working with all women too. And occasionally Chandler, he's the only guy and we don't see him as often as we would like to. But it wouldn't, it wouldn't be as successful as it is without people like you. So I think the feelings are mutual. So I think I can speak for the entire team when I say that we are so thankful for you.

[Heather]

Thank you so much. You guys have really helped change my life, and we'll talk about that a little bit today. But I am just forever grateful. And if I would have put money on my favorite teen mom back in the day, I would be a millionaire today. So I'm just gonna throw that out there. Was always my favorite.

[Kale Lowry]

Thank you. I appreciate that. And today we're going to talk about a really, really important topic and. And struggle for so many women and families, which is infant loss and pregnancy loss. I don't know if they're not really considered the same thing. Right. Infant loss is very different, and that's something that you shared with me. And so I don't want to be the one to tell your story. So if you don't mind telling your story.

[Heather]

Sure. I would love to, obviously, put a trigger warning out there for any mamas who are pregnant right now, anyone who's recently gone through a loss, because some of the things we're going to talk about today are a little difficult to hear. And, you know, even saying that, saying I have to put a trigger warning out there before talking about my own child, that. That is difficult in itself. But I really feel like this is a very important story and message that you have graciously given me the opportunity to get out there. And so to start just a little bit of background with my story, my husband and I met in 2018. We got married during COVID wedding season in 2020. And so our honeymoon was delayed for a whole year. So then we took our honeymoon in 2021 to Disney World, and that is actually where our first child, McKinsley, was conceived at. And so I went the whole pregnancy. It was my very first pregnancy at the age of 32. So we felt like we were extremely behind everybody in real time. We felt like we were going to be very old parents. So zero complications through the entire pregnancy, really. Just the normal morning sickness, but nothing bad at all. And I live in Kansas, and I was 30. I was turning 38 weeks pregnant, and there was actually a really bad snowstorm. And so they canceled my weekly sonogram for that week, which wasn't a big deal. But unfortunately, over that weekend, my husband Ben made me breakfast. And after he made me breakfast, I didn't feel McKinsley kicking, and so I thought that that was a little odd. And it was a Sunday, so I contacted my doctor's office and they told me I should just go in. We had had our hospital bags packed for a very long time. I'm a big planner. So we just grabbed our bags and went. On the way there, I was extremely nervous. I remember praying the whole way there. And when we got there, they brought in the first doctor, and then they brought in a second doctor and a third doctor. And by the fourth doctor, the fourth doctor told us that there was no heartbeat anymore.

[Kale Lowry]

So while you are. This is your first pregnancy. Right. So you didn't have a flu, but it sounds like so far, it sounds like you sort of had a feeling because you were really nervous the whole way there.

[Heather]

Yes.

[Kale Lowry]

And thinking back to, you know, and I. All my pregnancies, that was something that was like, okay, well, they could be in the birth canal. So that's maybe why, like, they're. They're going to start making their way out. And so I think, and I don't want to speak for every mom out there, because that's the. I'm just going to speak for myself. Was like, you know, maybe that for us, we are not thinking worst case scenario. We're thinking, oh, we're close to the due date, so maybe this means that we're about to go into labor.

[Heather]

And I was at 38 weeks, so I. I was full term. I was at the finish line. And so when the doctor told us, I mean, my husband still says he can hear it. I just let out the most imaginable scream ever. And I remember screaming like, oh, my God. We had to call our parents. They were all at church because it was a Sunday. Everybody rushed up to the hospital. And they couldn't give us any answers.

[Kale Lowry]

They.

[Heather]

They couldn't tell us why. The only thing I was told is that I was going to have to deliver her, knowing that she was gone already and deliver her.

[Kale Lowry]

They do a C section.

[Heather]

They did not do a C section. So what happened was she was actually transverse, so she was still sideways. She wasn't even head down yet. And so they had to manually break my water. They waited till the following day, but they had to actually break my water and put me into labor. And then they delivered her stillborn already knowing that she passed away.

[Kale Lowry]

Why did they wait until the next day? And why did they not do a C section for that? Do they. Do you have answers to that or you have no idea?

[Heather]

I don't think that if a C section would have been necessary, they would have done it. But that wasn't even something that they talked to me about. So I'm not 100% for sure on that. I know they wanted to try to get her turned, head down, which they did. And my labor was about four hours from start to finish. And so it's just very traumatic to even go through. I don't have an answer as to why they waited till the next day. I don't know, because we had a lot of family up there. Our pastor came up there to pray with us. Ben and I were trying to understand exactly what was going on. And so they just said, set it up for the day after in the morning. And what's crazy is that the day that we're doing this recording marks three days, or, I'm sorry, three years from that exact. So it's three years today that we found out we lost.

[Kale Lowry]

And you sort of still don't have answers. So before you were getting weekly ultrasounds towards the end of your pregnancy, was that because you were high risk or was that just because you were towards the end of your pregnancy?

[Heather]

It was just toward the end of the end of the pregnancy. So just because that was actually going to be my first weekly one, it was two weeks prior to the one I. I missed because of the snowstorm. But when I finally delivered McKinsley, they did see a teeny, tiny kink in the umbilical cord. And that is what happened.

[Kale Lowry]

And did they say what causes the kink? Or it's just sort of something that can happen.

[Heather]

It's just one of those things that can unfortunately happen, you know, at least that's what I was told. I don't know if they can catch those things on an ultrasound. Some doctors asked more questions. Some doctors have told me yes, some have said no. So I don't really have a clear answer on that. But it's hard to think the what ifs. What if the snow didn't come and I still had my weekly checkup? Would they have caught something? I don't know the answer to that.

[Kale Lowry]

When I read your initial email with your story and you said it was kind of hard for you to still think about that. What if you had that ultrasound? The same thing sort of went through my head. Like, would they have been able to see maybe a decrease in blood flow? Would they have been able to see a slowed heart rate? Like, is there just anything? And I cannot imagine the feeling of living in that what if space and the guilt that must come with it. Even though you have to know it was not your fault, it was truly nobody's fault.

[Heather]

It's hard because the blame game Happens. I can think of every detail leading up to that day. You know, you think, did I sleep wrong? Did I eat wrong? Did I move wrong? You know, you blame yourself in your body, like, in this is what we're made to do. Our bodies are supposed to be able to give children life. And so when my body didn't do that, it was just really confusing. And I remember after delivering her, everybody around me was just talking about funeral arrangements, and I couldn't. My head couldn't figure out what was going on. I had just given birth for the first time, and everybody around me is talking about planning a funeral. General. My head just couldn't connect the two at all. What was going on in that moment?

[Kale Lowry]

Did you ever. And I hope this isn't insensitive for me to ask, but knowing that you were gonna have to go through labor and birthing McKenzie, like, was there any point in your mind where you're like, okay, maybe they're wrong? Like, she'll come out, and her. She'll be fine.

[Heather]

My husband was like that. So Ben was like that. He honestly thought she might be okay when I delivered her. But I personally knew because the kicks were gone, I couldn't feel her anymore. And it is the craziest thing to feel life die inside of you. I don't know how to explain that. I don't know how to explain that. But I remember the last kick that I felt being very faint. And so you think, like, was that the moment? I had to ask my OB gyn, you know, did she suffer? Was she okay? You know, as a mom, you just want to protect her. And the hardest thing that Ben and I had to do was we had her with us in the hospital room that night. They graciously moved us to a different floor that didn't have any crying babies on it to protect me. So the hospital was wonderful with that. But the hardest moment was when Ben and I had to send her down to the freezer so they could preserve her for the future.

[Kale Lowry]

Did they prepare you for, like, as much as they could? Obviously, nobody's prepared for infant loss, right? But, like, did they walk you through it? Did they tell you, like, this is, you know, the process of, like, what we're gonna do. You're gonna have time with her, and then we're gonna send her downstairs, or, like, how does that.

[Heather]

Like, the nurse we had was very caring. She told us to take our time with her. But they did talk to us about how it is better to preserve. And we did get to spend, you know, days with her in the mortuary. Ben and I took our favorite books up there. We read to her, we sang to her, we tried to get as many parent moments as we could in with her. And it was hard for me to hold her at first because you never imagine holding your child and they're cold to the touch, you know. And that was still very hard. I wanted to just keep her warm, but she was already just gone. Craving your next action packed adventure, Audible delivers thrills of every kind on your command. Like Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir where a lone astronaut must save humanity from extinction. Narrated with stunning intensity by Ray Porter. From electrifying suspense and daring quests to spine tingling horror and romance in far off realms, unleash your adventure aside with gripping titles that'll keep you guessing.

[Kale Lowry]

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[Heather]

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[Kale Lowry]

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[Heather]

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[Kale Lowry]

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[Heather]

$15 a month, of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families with Greenlight. You can send money to kids quickly, set up chores automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications. Kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place. Try Greenlight Risk free [e-mail] wondery and I know this is so difficult to talk about, but it happens more often than we realize. Miscarriages are 1 in 4. Stillbirths are 1 in 175. And so I know that we have heard you talk about miscarriages on your end. It's nothing that any mother should have to go through. And so I kind of want to ask you how was that for you? I don't even know how many miscarriages you actually had.

[Kale Lowry]

It's. It's a different kind of pain because for me, at least, you know, you have a little bit of guilt, right, where it's like, could I have done something different? Sort of like how you were describing. And I'm only speaking for myself, so anyone listening to this podcast, please don't get mad at me for saying this, but because I had miscarriages in the first trimester, I didn't have that same question of did they suffer? Right. Like we're talking about a full term baby that could have survived outside of the womb versus, you know, I was in such the early stages, so I think it's just a different kind of pain. I don't think I should have worn makeup for this episode. I didn't even pick up waterproof mascara. Heather and I were talking. I don't know why I didn't just not put makeup on at all. There's a different kind of pain. And then I will say that, you know, and maybe you can relate to this part of it. I then got pregnant with luck. So I had two back to back miscarriages before Lux, and then I got pregnant with Lux. But I bled so often in that pregnancy that I was just like, is this it kind of thing? And so then there was a new fear where it was like, okay, I'm out of the first trimester, but now we're in the second trimester, which would be considered a stillborn, I believe so. I mean, all the way up to almost 20 weeks. I'm constantly checking to see if how much blood is, is coming out, but I had a. I think it's called a sub chronic hemorrhage. And so they were able to see that through the ultrasound and things like that. And so I was sort of prepared in that way. But I don't, I just. It's not the same as. And I'm not saying, but I am saying maybe stillborn is probably just on the spectrum of pain. It's just very different. And it's probably a deeper pain because like I said, I mean, the what if, you know, what if the snow didn't come? What if I would have got the ultrasound? Would they? And so I think for a miscarriage, it's just, it's the same.

[Heather]

I think everybody can handle it differently too. I will say that going full term, you know, you're at the, you're at the end, you're at the finish line, but also when you have a miscarriage, too. That. That doesn't make the loss any less than when you have a still birth. A loss is a loss. It may just be the grieving may be a little bit different and the stages that you go through, but I can't imagine having a miscarriage either. You know, this is something that I never imagine. When you think about getting pregnant for the first time, you never imagine this. And it was very traumatic.

[Kale Lowry]

You know, this is such an important message, and all the resources that you emailed me are so important. And I do think that, you know, infant loss is not talked about enough. And when you said it's, you know, 1 in 175, I think I remember a friend from high school. She had some stuff on her Facebook about her stillborn, and she. She talked to me about it, but I never really questioned. Like, I didn't ask her a lot of questions because I just wanted to leave it wherever she was comfortable. You know, she. She brought it to me and, you know, mentioned some things, and I. I do have questions, but I don't want to ask them. If you're not comfortable with me asking.

[Heather]

Questions, I want you to ask them for sure. You know, and I don't want this message to just be about MC Kinsley. I want it to be about stillbirth. I want it to be about miscarriages, because it's so important. Not everybody is going to have the same story that I have. And as a whole, and I'm talking about barely famous karma and chaos, the Southern tea, coffee convos, all of those Fan Base pages, there is conversation about this in all of them. And so it's very important for us to touch on all of this all the way around.

[Kale Lowry]

I feel like, in terms of, you know, McKenzie specifically, you said that you were having to think about funeral arrangements. How soon after she was born did you have to make those decisions? And how did you make those decisions?

[Heather]

It was very, very difficult. It was right away. I mean, it was. I was in the hospital two days, and it was immediately when we got home, I was getting emails from funeral directors. We were trying to pick out her headstone. You know, I was trying to email them songs and everything that I wanted. We do have audio recording of it. I've never listened to it. We had our funeral at our church that we go to, that we attend to. The same pastor that married my husband And I did McKinsey's funeral in the same chapel that we got married in. So it's very bittersweet when you have the biggest joy of your life, getting married to the person you love. And then you're also in the same chapel, you know, about to bury your child. So that was very difficult in itself. But when we got back home. So the day of the funeral, this is really crazy. The day of the funeral, we got in a car accident. On the way home from the funeral, Gosh, somebody hit us that had a trailer tractor with several cars on it. And we were coming home from the funeral, and as we were filling out the paperwork for the car accident, a ladybug flew into Ben's truck. And we see them everywhere now. And it was February 28th. Ladybugs don't happen in the winter time in Kansas. And the story we have over them, I mean, I have videos of ladybugs crawling on McKinsley's grave. The house that we purchased after McKinsley passed away, the one that we live in now, the owners had ladybug pillows on the porch when we viewed the house. The little girl that lives next door to us, her name is Kinsley, and she flies a ladybug kite outside.

[Kale Lowry]

Oh, my gosh.

[Heather]

The stories just go on and on and on. And, you know, that's just our little sign from her that she's just up there watching over us. So imagine that a car accident happens and a ladybug flies in the truck we were driving.

[Kale Lowry]

She just wanted to let you know she was there. She was watching over you.

[Heather]

She still is. So that part of our story is pretty amazing. I love sharing that part. So out at her grave, we have a lot of little ladybugs. Our front yard do. Our house has a lot of little ladybug things in it. So that part of the story is pretty crazy and pretty cool to share because you do get little signs from heaven, whether they're butterflies, ladybugs, when you find pennies on the sidewalk, you know, people see different things from loved ones that have already passed away.

[Kale Lowry]

And do you and Ben ever talk about McKenzie or talk about any of it? Or how, like, strange enough, I'm reading a book right now, and there's infant loss in there. One of the parents doesn't want to talk about it, keeps herself bit. The mom, she doesn't want to talk about it. She wants to stay busy. And then the dad wants to talk about it, wants to remember, you know, his daughter. And so he, you know, just basically talks to himself about her in his head, because he doesn't. And then they get divorced. So what. What is that dynamic, like, in your house? Like, are you and Ben on the same page, or do you have different ways of coping? And did you guys ever think about, like, okay, we, you know, maybe it affected your marriage more than you anticipated, or did you think it brought you guys closer together?

[Heather]

Both. So people grieve in very different ways.

[Kale Lowry]

Absolutely.

[Heather]

I can't expect him to grieve the same way that I'm grieving, and he can't expect the same out of me either. One conversation we had when she first passed away was. Was very insightful. He told me how jealous he was because he never got to actually feel. Feel her. He can feel the kicks on the outside, but I could only feel her on the inside. So he never got to actually feel her alive. And so that's one thing that you never think about when it comes to the dads in this situation. You know, the closest he got to her was, you know, feeling the kicks on the outside, but it's completely different than feeling them on the inside. And so that's something that I, you know, never took into consideration that I got those nine months with her that he wasn't able to get. So that conversation with him was really, really important. But like I said, we all grieve differently. I had support through, oddly enough, Coffee Convo's podcast, the Kiddie and Telegram, had just started up. And so that is where my support system came in, because I'll be honest with dealing with McKinsey's death. My husband's alcohol level went very high. He was always a drinker, but it went way more into extremes. When we lost McKinsley, that was his way of coping. And so I was kind of all alone in my grief because he was, you know, in our basement, drinking a lot, unfortunately.

[Kale Lowry]

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[Heather]

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[Kale Lowry]

We know when it comes to finding.

[Heather]

Balance, the more choices, the better. You know, Kayl and it really made me think of your mom and how you know Alcohol changes a person. It really does. And your mom also had something very tragic that happened when she lost her aunt. And it made me wonder, you know, is that what caused her to drink more when she lost her sister in a car accident?

[Kale Lowry]

Yeah, I definitely think that's possible. I don't know why. Like, I have these, like, visceral reactions to other people and, like, empathize with you and with Ben, and I don't know if it's because I don't have to live it, but I just feel so much anger, more anger towards my mom when I should also have empathy for her. Because you could be very correct. I mean, that's. That could be so true. What do you think the turning point was for you guys? Like, is. Do you think that there was a turning point in the grief? You know, you were sort of coping by yourself, and he was drinking. And then when do you. When do you see things starting to change for the better?

[Heather]

So he had to hit complete rock bottom. I mean, he was going to leave. He was going to go, you know, visit his friend in Kentucky, his best friend from the army, that. That's where he lived at the time. And so he just packed up his truck and he was gonna go, but halfway through, he was just like, what am I doing? So he actually came back home, and he told me he was gonna check himself into rehab, and he finished his rehab program. And I'm very proud to say that in June. June 21, Ben will be three years sober from alcohol. He is now leading AA meetings once a week, and he is also sponsoring somebody else, and they have actually asked him back to the facility to talk to all of the people in rehab. And so I'm just beyond proud of him.

[Kale Lowry]

We all are. We love Ben. I got to meet Heather and Ben in person back in September. I think it was at. Was it Dallas?

[Heather]

It was Dallas, yes.

[Kale Lowry]

And, you know, I don't know if he just comes along for the ride to support you or if he's act. You know, he. He likes the kitty gang, but we'll take him either way. It doesn't matter.

[Heather]

I think it's. It's a little bit of both, you know, but he really supports anything that I love, so he will put on a pair of kitty ears with me and go along for the ride. The one thing he said to me that night when we left is he said. Said kayla's so pretty in person. He said, she's not all done up and anything. He said, she's just so pretty in person.

[Kale Lowry]

I Don't. I cannot even. I can't even picture him any other way. So I can imagine how, you know, watching the. The changes in him, and you guys are going through all of the, you know, the loss and the grief together, and then watching him come out on the other side of it, and now you guys are. I would imagine you guys could grieve together rather. Rather than apart, if that makes sense.

[Heather]

For sure. And I had to learn a completely new person. Since we met, I've never known Ben completely sober. So that took months of building trust. I had to learn a whole new person. But the Ben that I have now is just phenomenal. He's so attentive, so amazing, and it's just crazy how much alcohol can change a person. It really can get a hold on somebody, and I can't understand that. I've never had an addiction problem ever, with anything. I've never tried even smoking cigarettes. I've never tried drugs in my life. I only had alcohol and very occasional occasions, you know, so I can't understand when it has a grasp, grasp on somebody like that.

[Kale Lowry]

I mean, I agree with you. I've never really been a drinker. Obviously, I've tried it here and there, but, like, it just isn't for me. So I do have a really. A harder time. But in this context, you know, I can't imagine losing an infant, let alone feeling the way that Ben felt. Right. Like, that is a really, really valid perspective and point that he never got to feel McKenzie. Like, you know, he never got to feel life with her, where you grew her. So it's. It's different. And I'm not saying his is less. I'm just. What I'm saying is like trying to put ourselves in a man's shoes and. And not really being able to. And so I would imagine that, you know, he turned to alcohol there. He felt like he had no other option. And. And now you guys do have another child. First of all, we love him. We love. We love. I call him B, but BB maybe B. What was that process like, deciding to try for another baby? What was knowing that you were still. Because I would imagine that the. The. The loss, the feeling of loss, the grief that comes with losing an infant, that's lifelong. I mean, even though you didn't get to live, you know, she didn't get to live earthside with you and build these memories, that's still your child, right? So when people ask you. I have so many questions. When people ask you, how many kids do you have? Do you Say one, or do you say two? Or do you go into it where you say, I have a son, but I did have a. Like, how. What does that look like?

[Heather]

So I always say, too, McKinsey will always be my daughter. But how I say it to people is I say I have one angel baby and one earthly baby.

[Kale Lowry]

Do people think that you're talking about a miscarriage?

[Heather]

No, what they think, you know, in the very beginning, it was really, really hard. I went through a lot of traumatic things when we first lost McKinsley. But when people ask, it can be triggering because you. You almost don't know what to say to them. But I will never say that Brody is only. Is an only child. I will never say that I only have one child. One thing, too is I went through two pregnancies, two full term pregnancies that destroyed my body. You know, when I lost McKinsley, that was something else that. It's like, here I am, I don't even have my baby, but I have all these stretch marks. Going through things like your milk supply coming in when you've lost your baby is so traumatic. I can't even explain that to you. Like having milk dripping out of you, and you don't even have a child to feed it to. The doctors had to help me with ways to try to dry it up because it was so traumatic, you know, having the stretch marks, having your body just being so. Just not the same anymore, and you don't even have the baby there, you know, And a lot of people say, oh, get through the pregnancy. It's so worth it once you have your baby in your arms. But I didn't have that, so that is very difficult as well.

[Kale Lowry]

Did you ever. And I'm asking this. I don't know. I didn't. This is a thriller book that I'm talking about with the. With the infant loss. And I never thought I would relate more because there's also alcohol involved as well. In the book, the moment runs into someone who doesn't know she lost her infant. Did you ever see someone after you lost McKenzie that maybe didn't know that you lost her and ask, like, oh, how's your daughter? Or like, oh, did you have the baby? And then you're triggered all over again, and you have to relive all of the grief again.

[Heather]

So this story, this. You're gonna just be like, oh, my gosh.

[Kale Lowry]

Oh, my gosh.

[Heather]

I went to my doctor's office for a checkup after I had the stillbirth, just to make sure that Everything healed the way it was supposed to. He. So I'm waiting in the waiting room, and they call my name to come back. And I go back there, and the nurse sits me down, and she starts giving me all these gifts. For having your first child. She gives me a diaper bag. She gives me formula. She tells me, congratulations. She says, we're gonna check the baby's heartbeat. And I just looked at her, and I lost it. I completely lost it. And I said, I am not pregnant. And she just looked at me, and she just left me in the room to try to figure out what happened. There were two Heathers in the waiting room.

[Kale Lowry]

Oh, no.

[Heather]

And I got up first, and so the other Heather that was in the waiting room, so they got us mixed up. And so my ob GYN had to come in the room, and I was left in that room by myself for a good 20 minutes while they were trying to figure out what the heck happened. So my ob GYN had to come in the room and try to calm me down, down.

[Kale Lowry]

So I don't even know what to say.

[Heather]

Things like that will happen. I had a dentist appointment where they were cleaning my teeth, and I couldn't talk. And they kept going on and on and asking me, you know, how many kids do you have this and that? And tears just welled up in my eyes. There are things like that that happen, unfortunately. When I first lost McKinsley, I went through something that I've never gone through before, and I started having traumatic hallucinations and visions of different ways that she died.

[Kale Lowry]

Did a doctor or anything warn you that that could happen, or is that a pretty unique experience, to your knowledge?

[Heather]

I think it's a pretty unique experience. In all of the support groups that I've been in, if I've brought it up, no one that I know has experienced that. So that is hard. You know, you feel like you're a little crazy. But I think my brain was trying to make sense of what happened. Think a kink in the umbilical cord was not good enough for me. I was trying to make sense out of it. And, I mean, these were very traumatic things that I saw. I was looking out of our kitchen window, and I saw her hanging from a tree. The first one that happened, I was in our shower, and we had a glass shower, and I could just, like, hear her banging on the shower, saying, mama, help me. Like, very traumatic things happen.

[Kale Lowry]

Did you ever talk to a doctor about it?

[Heather]

I did, you know, and I really don't know what to say about it. I know a couple people that they say it did happen to them as well, but I think it's a very unique circumstance. And so when Ben got home from rehab, we actually sent me somewhere. We sent me to Florida to get some help because I just needed some sort of support. And so I was gone for almost a month in a treatment facility. And I learned a lot of amazing things there, talking in class. The biggest thing I learned was that my control had a control on me. And so my need to control situations has a grasp. Grasp and control on me. And it still happens to this day. I try to prevent bad things from happening, so I try to control everything around me.

[Kale Lowry]

And this is because of the. Of infant loss and losing McKenzie. That was sort of what happened. The toll that it took on you was that it manifested in the way of wanting to control things. You think?

[Heather]

Yes, I think it was there a little bit before. I think we all have a little control freak in us when we want things to go a certain. A certain way, of course. But it got much worse after I lost McKinsley. You know, anytime Ben wants to take Brody out somewhere, I think they're gonna get in a car accident. Like, I convinced myself they're gonna get in a car accident. So I don't want them to go because I try to control the situation. But in my therapy, I learned that the control actually had the control on me. It's. It's very crazy. And then one of the therapists there, I told them, when McKinsley died inside of me, I felt like I died myself. And he looked at me and he said, don't die twice. He said, heather, die twice. One of my therapists, when I went to Florida, wow.

[Kale Lowry]

Did, you know, did that change or shift your perspective in any way?

[Heather]

It did. Especially now that, you know, I have been in Brody to live for and myself, you know, not just them, but McKinsey story can have such an impact, too, on others. Like, that's my goal in this. It's. It's not to become famous from barely famous. It's not to get followers. It's none of that. It's to help other parents out there that are going through the same thing. I honestly thought you just got through the 12 weeks and. And you were good to go. Nobody educated me on this, that this could happen happen. In all, you know, in all the teen moms that I've seen, there's been talk about miscarriages, you know, terminations, but there's never been a stillbirth. One of the girls from the Kitty Gang actually made me aware that I believe it's Madison from Siesta Keys. She had a stillbirth, and her story is very similar to mine. She lost her son Elliot, the December before I lost McKinsley. And it was a court accident, and she was 37 weeks.

[Kale Lowry]

I mean, one in 175 feels very, very. A lot more common, like you were saying in the beginning, than any of us expect. Like, around here, they push for induction at 39 weeks. And I thought maybe it was just to guarantee that they're delivering their patients. Patient's baby while they're on call and they can schedule that baby to be delivered while they're there or whatever the case may be. And I don't. I don't know. It just. It. I never really understood it, but I guess there. There can be complications towards the end, especially if they run out of room or they lay on the court a certain way. I'm just wondering in what ways can we reduce those numbers? I just don't. But I. I'm not a doctor, and I have, you know, I. I don't know what it is. It. Is it more. More checkups? Is it. I don't know. And so when you were going through this and you and Ben both go get treatment, which, I mean, kudos to you both for getting treatment because that couldn't have been easy. And you being there for him, him coming home, being there for you, like, that's unheard of. I feel one. Did you have the support when you. When you decided to. To go into treatment besides from Ben, like, did you have. Did you have support from everybody else? And then when you came home from that, did you ever think, you know, we don't. We're not going to do this again. We don't want to have another baby because we're still going through the grieving process?

[Heather]

Yes. So to answer the first question, I did have support. No, it. It's crazy. The Kitty Gang was my support. When I was in that treatment facility, Kale, I received cards from members of the Kitty Gang, members that sent carts to my treatment facility. I had so much support from the group that you and Lindsay created together. I mean, that was my support. I mean, I had Ben and my. My immediate family obviously, too. But when I needed an outlet, when I was on the couch alone by myself because my mom went back to work and Ben went back to work, and it was just me at home, I quit my job to be a stay at home mom with Mackenzie. So I was literally at Home by myself. So I lost McKinsey in February, and the Kitty Gang telegram started in May or August, and then we talked about it in May, and then it started in August, and then I went to the treatment facility in October. And so when I got back, the group was just so supportive to me. We had some issues paying for McKinsley's headstone. There were a couple things that happened with that, and I shared my story on the Kitty Gang page, and I had members of the Kitty Gang that sent Ben and I money for the headstone, things that I'll never be able to repay back. And so when people are like, you know, Heather's really, rah, rah. Yeah, Kitty Gang. Oh, my gosh, she's very over the top sometimes, which I am. We can all admit that and laugh at that. You know, number one fan girl over here. I think that people don't realize what the Kitty Gang actually did for me in my life, that that was my support system. The OG Girls in there, when that first started, we created a bond that, you know, and it's still going. You can't match what happened in that group when it first started.

[Kale Lowry]

I just want to say I'm sorry if I missed any of that, because I don't think I knew any of that or. Or I only knew bits and pieces of it. And so I just want to apologize for not being there for you. You during that time.

[Heather]

Stop it. Stop it. You don't even know me then.

[Kale Lowry]

But even if I didn't know you, like, if I would have known, and. And maybe I knew parts of it, but I didn't know the full story. Like, I would have paid for. I would have paid for a tombstone. Like, that's something that I. I just.

[Heather]

Would never ask you to do that.

[Kale Lowry]

You didn't. You don't have to ask. And I think that's the other part of it, is that you're saying, like, people might not understand, and I don't think they do. I don't. And for you to say that you can't ever repay it. I think people that were. I don't want to speak for everybody, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that I think that they. They don't need to be repaid. Like, they. They can. I don't know if it's sympathize or empathize, but they wanted to be there for you and contribute. You don't have to repay them. And so I think that you being there, being here now and. And sharing your Message and sharing, you know, MacKenzie's story and your story, you don't know if maybe one of them will ever be in the same situation. And so just you sharing your story and coming on here and also telling. Telling the story in the telegram, I think is so important. So I don't think that you need to repay them or even worry about that.

[Heather]

Stop. You're beautiful crying. We don't call it ugly cry. It's beautiful cry.

[Kale Lowry]

Beautiful cry.

[Heather]

Maybe repay. Is not it the. The right way to say it? I think. I think I just want to support that group so much because I know what they did for me in my life, and so I want to pay it forward, I guess.

[Kale Lowry]

Yeah, and I think you do that. I don't. I don't even think that it's. I think it just comes second nature. I mean, coming on here and sharing, Sharing your story and spreading awareness, I think is paying it forward.

[Heather]

I just love, love, love that group so much. They're just.

[Kale Lowry]

Oh, Heather, I can't. I want to share this with Lindsay because I think she's on a beach trip right now, but I do want to share this with Lindsay because I think she might not know as well. I think she doesn't know the extent of it or. Or that everybody came together in that way for you and I. I hope that that is the community that we built. I hope that it is still that way. And I hope that, you know, when. When. When a fellow Kitty member, Kitty gang member, you know, needs something that we can uplift each other, at the very least, it does. You know, not even monetarily speaking, but just in. In a way of support.

[Heather]

You know, a lot of people go in there and they share their stories. You know, they're. They're there for each other, and I. I want that to continue. You know, a lot of people feel comfortable sharing things and getting advice in that group, and I just think what you and Lindsay have built is just so amazing. It truly is. And it. It did change my life. To answer the second part of your question, I know I went a little long on that.

[Kale Lowry]

No, me too. Sorry about that.

[Heather]

No, that's what's fun about podcasts. You don't know where they're gonna go. So.

[Kale Lowry]

Yeah, this is true.

[Heather]

This is true with getting pregnant for the second time. Have you ever had sex and you just. Just know you made a baby? Like, you just. You finished. You just know it happened.

[Kale Lowry]

You just know it. Yeah, you know what? That happened a lot more often than I'd be willing to Admit truly.

[Heather]

So it was one of those where when we did our business and then, you know, we said, we just totally made a baby, you know, you just know. And 100. That's what happened.

[Kale Lowry]

I'm cracking.

[Heather]

So we weren't preventing. We weren't necessarily like, like trying really hard. But it was difficult. All the what ifs came in. I'm very fortunate that we have our rainbow baby. But going those nine months was very difficult. But I had extensive checkups because of my history. They did checkups every week with me.

[Kale Lowry]

I was gonna ask you about that. So knowing. Well, because them not really having answers for McKenzie and the. Just the kink in the cord. I don't. I don't want to be insensitive. So I, I hope that you understand that I'm not trying to be offensive when I say this like a. Like an app, like a freak accident, like, couldn't have been prevented. There wasn't an illness, there wasn't a genetic disorder. There wasn't anything truly. I hope that's not offensive when I say.

[Heather]

No, not at all. Not at all.

[Kale Lowry]

Okay. You know, I guess regardless of it being that way, they still do the extra testing, the extra everything. Did they have plans to induce you early? Like, how was the pregnancy different this time around with brody compared with McKenzie?

[Heather]

Excessive checkups. Anytime we felt uncomfortable, we went to the hospital immediately. I was there all the time if. If I didn't feel him kicking for some reason. And Brody liked to sleep a lot in the womb, so he had me. He had me going for a while. But anytime I felt uncomfortable, they said, come in immediately. And we would check the heartbeat. You know, heartbeat monitors at home, I have mixed feelings on them because sometimes they don't work correctly, and that can give you a scare. So I think going to the hospital.

[Kale Lowry]

Just speaking on the heart, the heart monitors at home, or like the little Dopplers, I also had one for Lux, specifically after the double, after back. Back to back miscarriages. If you're a new mom and you don't necessarily know what you're trying to hear, like what to listen for, sometimes you get the whooshing of the blood versus an actual heartbeat, I think can be difficult and concern. Like you get anxious about it or you can't necessarily find it, that's something I have mixed. I have really, really conflicting feelings on them, too. I have a girlfriend who asked me, and I said, and if you're an anxious person, maybe it would not be in your best interest to get one. But also, everyone's different. So when you were going to those appointments and going to the hospital at the time, were they already familiar with your. With your loss prior to.

[Heather]

Yes. So we made sure that every nurse knew. I mean, it was in my charts. I had the same obgyn that I had with McKinsley. Same hospital, same everything. So they did have our history, which I think is a positive thing. So that part was really, really good. But you just can't. The 12 weeks to me doesn't exist. The safety net in the 12 weeks to me, that's non existent.

[Kale Lowry]

Right.

[Heather]

And I know that's kind of harsh to say, but you can lose a child at any time in the pregnancy. Pregnancy. Obviously I was at the finish line. And so I don't say that to scare any mamas out there that I want it to be known because I was not prepared at all. I had no clue this could even happen. I feel so uneducated about that and a little naive because I think it made the grieving portion worse that I didn't know that this could even happen. Happen.

[Kale Lowry]

But even if you had known, I don't know that it would make it easier. Do you know what I mean?

[Heather]

Like, it may not.

[Kale Lowry]

It may. May have even taken away some of the joy of the pregnancy, knowing and worrying that it could be. You know what I mean? So almost that naiveness protected you a little bit all the way up to the 38 weeks. So when you were. When you got pregnant with Brody and you found out and then you guys were sort of planning the birth, did they. Did they want to induce you early?

[Heather]

They did ask. 38 weeks. It was 38 or 39. I think it's 38. And they did a C section with Brody, so it was all scheduled. I mean, we had him. This C sections are crazy. They willed me back there. I had Brody in my arms in half an hour. Like, it was bizarre. So. Yeah. They're so quick.

[Kale Lowry]

Oh, my God. When you said Brody slept a lot in the womb, Valley was on top and her positioning. I always could tell the difference between who was moving and she didn't move a whole lot. Where verse was just running and ex doing gymnastics in there. And. And so I freaked me out a lot that he. She was sleeping. And so I would imagine every time Brody was like, not active for some time, you were concerned and rightfully so.

[Heather]

Yeah. Yeah. So there were a lot of trips to the hospital with him. And I know you had some scares with first and Valley and Rio. All three were in the nicu. So I'm sure that that was very hard. And they were all three early as well.

[Kale Lowry]

Rio was technically full term, but he was a nine pound baby in the nicu, which was. That was the running joke, the time. It's like they do get. They actually do get like, like bigger babies in the NICU more often than people know, because you think of like a NICU baby as, you know, it may be like a premature baby or, you know, a little baby, but that's not always the case.

[Heather]

And so he was before his due date though, right? He came early?

[Kale Lowry]

Yeah, he was, yeah. I mean, but I always say give or take two weeks because, you know, technically you could go up. You could go up to 42. They don't love that. Which, you know, know for, for functions of the placenta. But I couldn't imagine being pregnant for 42 weeks.

[Heather]

No, never. One thing that is really hard, and I feel like I have to say this, that infuriates me, is when the paparazzi is following you around when you're pregnant.

[Kale Lowry]

Heather, I thought you were gonna say something about you and you're talking about.

[Heather]

No, Kayl, I have to say this. And you could take it out of the podcast if you want it, but no, this is serious. The fact that they were following you around and taking pictures and not giving you your privacy, they don't know if you're having complications. They don't know anything. So to follow you around with a camera because people know who you are is absolutely ridiculous. And I just, I have to say that because a woman, when she is pregnant, that is her right to know what is going on with her body and what she wants to tell publicly or not. They had no idea if you had complications or not. You could have known something about that pregnancy that nobody else out there knew.

[Kale Lowry]

That is a really good point. I mean, to your point and to, you know, what you went through and, and, and in McKenzie's story is that I could have been 38 weeks also. I mean, it could happen to anyone. And so, you know, they're trying to sell pictures of someone pregnant. Not just me, but anybody that's pregnant. You don't know if that baby will make it. And then you just exploited her. You know, the most vulnerable time of a mother's life. And I'm not just speaking for myself. I'm speaking for, you know, any, any mom to be anybody that's pregnant. And so that's really upsetting.

[Heather]

Yeah. When all of that was in the media, I was very upset. Get by that.

[Kale Lowry]

Well, I appreciate that. And you have such a big heart, Heather. I love that you. We're trying to tell your story and you're talking about us.

[Heather]

It's all full circle, girls.

[Kale Lowry]

We're gonna link all of these resources that Heather has shared with us in the description of this episode. So when you guys do get a chance to look, if you wanted to share them with someone or just save them on your own own, we're going to put them in the description of the episode. We're also, we'll post, we'll make sure they get out on socials. So if you guys need, you know, maybe you know someone or maybe you've gone through it yourself or you just sort of, you know, want to read up on these resources and that kind of thing. We'll, we'll make sure that you guys have them. And then are you, are you comfortable sharing your. The Wave of Light infant loss video or can we. Because you, you went to. It's like a visual, right? Light.

[Heather]

Yes. Yes.

[Kale Lowry]

Is that the right word? Am I saying that correctly?

[Heather]

Yeah. So Wave of Light is something that Bridget's Cradles puts on every year if we have enough time. I just want to touch on them just a little bit. So Bridget's cradles, they get 501c3 non profit organization incorporated in the state of Kansas. It's founded after the birth of Matt and Ashley Obiker's daughter, Bridget Faith. She was stillborn at 24 weeks and 5 days in 2014. She measured at 10.5 inches long and weighed 13 ounces. After Ashley had some complications, Ashley's mom wanted to knit Bridget a special small blanklet blanket in the likely case that Bridget was born too early. After making a small mint green blanket, she began to think that it would be difficult to wrap such a small blanket around a tiny baby. And so she knit the sides together to create a cradle. Bridget's Cradles provides handmade knit and crocheted cradles to 1050 plus hospitals in all 50 states to offer to families whose babies were born into heaven in the second trimester of pregnancy. Pregnancy. So they are designed to hold tiny babies who are born into heaven during the second trimester. Because babies are so small and fragile in the weeks 14 to 26 of pregnancy, traditional blankets do not meet the needs. They also offer memory keepsakes. Memory keepsakes. And they're provided to families who have lost babies in the first and third trimesters. Ashley Oberger also has a podcast called Cradled in Hope and her book comes out in July of this Year called Cradled in Hope. It is a faith based podcast and book. So I wanted to put that out there. She is very faith based about babies being in heaven. The organization, I had no idea, but I received a cradle and a keepsake at the hospital when I lost McKinsey. This organization is five miles from my house. House in Kansas.

[Kale Lowry]

Oh, wow.

[Heather]

And I had no idea. So Ashley has been a huge light in my life. She helps so many others and so I wanted to take that time just to share with everybody. She has a podcast, her book is coming out. She does online sessions for mamas who have lost babies and what they do there is just completely incredible.

[Kale Lowry]

I wrote that down. I'll also link that stuff. Stuff. I'll link her links in the description as well. Just for people to go back to. I know some. A lot of times people drive and they're driving while they're listening and so they can't. They can't do both. So just so you guys don't have to remember all of it, these links will be in the description. And I, I just want to say also, if, if anyone is interested, I donated my wedding gown. Javi and I got married, I think 20. We got married in 2012, had a wedding in 2013. I donated that wedding gown gown to Washington. There was a hospital in Washington that creates outfits out of the wedding gown for funeral, outfits for infants. That's also an option. If anyone is interested. I can go look at exactly what organization I donated mine to, but there are other ones, so I can try to include some of those. But. Oh my God. I literally, like, what the heck was I thinking putting makeup on?

[Heather]

I love you. I just want to give you a hug.

[Kale Lowry]

I knew it was gonna be emotional, but I just didn't know that it was gonna be like, I thought I could hold it together a little bit more, but clearly I just, you know, I could never be Diane Sawyer because she just keeps it straight. Like, I don't think she's ever shed a tear in an interview. And so I. I'll share the links for the wedding gown.

[Heather]

That's amazing that you did that. I love that you did that. That is so great.

[Kale Lowry]

I. It almost feels full circle sort of because at that time I didn't know anyone that had a still born. I truly didn't know how often it was. I thought it was like one in a million kind of things like, like you. I just didn't even know that that was a possibility really, or it could happen or affect anyone near me. And so it feels full circle. Almost like maybe I would come in contact with, with you or, you know, I, I don't know. It sort of feels full circle. But I thank you so much for sharing your story here and, and, and continuing to share McKenzie's story. And I obviously wish the best for you and Ben and Brody and I love when you send me pictures of. Look at all this. Not coming out of my nose. I am so sorry.

[Heather]

It's beautiful.

[Kale Lowry]

How about that? And where can people find you? If you are comfortable sharing and if you want to share your handles, you.

[Heather]

Know where people can find me.

[Kale Lowry]

I know they can. No, I know.

[Heather]

But they can find me in any podcast group that has to do with Kale Lowry. So Coffee Convo's podcast group on Facebook. They can find me in karma and chaos. There's a barely famous one who's got one in Southern Tea and that's where the people can find me.

[Kale Lowry]

I know they can find you there. But for anyone who's not on social media like us, if you want to find tether, all you have to do is join one of the groups. Groups. That's it. That's all you have to do.

[Heather]

Come talk to me over there.

[Kale Lowry]

Don't make me pee. Thank you so much, Heather.

[Heather]

Yeah. Love you, girl. Take care.

[Kale Lowry]

Love you. Is this thing on?

[Heather]

I'm Caitlin Bristow, host of off the vine podcast where I get real, maybe a little too real sometimes with my friends and celeb guests from Bachelor franchise and beyond. I'm talking guests like Jonathan Van Ness, Nikki Glaser, Wells Adams, Elise Myers.

[Kale Lowry]

Just like in this, like, business jacket. Like, I would love some tacos.

[Heather]

Heidi D'Amelio, Big Brother's Taylor Hale. I have to bring it up because it happened and we're gonna get through it.

[Kale Lowry]

What I do and so many more. So come hang out with us.

[Heather]

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[Kale Lowry]

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[Heather]

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[Kale Lowry]

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[Heather]

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[Kale Lowry]

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[Heather]

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[Kale Lowry]

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[Heather]

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[Kale Lowry]

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[Heather]

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[Kale Lowry]

Oh my God, I love it.

[Heather]

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[Kale Lowry]

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