Can't Get Enough with Kennedy Ryan

Summary

Podcast Summary: Barely Famous – "Can't Get Enough with Kennedy Ryan" (Released June 13, 2025)

Host: Kale (Kail Lowry)
Guest: Kennedy Ryan, acclaimed author of the "Skyland" series

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1. Introduction and Book Release

Kale welcomes Kennedy Ryan to the Barely Famous Podcast, expressing her excitement about the interview and Kennedy's latest book, "Can't Get Enough". Kennedy shares her mixed emotions surrounding the release, describing it as both "excited" and "bittersweet" (01:38). She reflects on how concluding the "Skyland" series feels akin to leaving friends behind in a cherished place, while also looking forward to new writing endeavors.

2. Concluding the "Skyland" Series and Future Projects

When discussing the decision to end the series, Kennedy emphasizes her intentional focus on three distinct women, each making unique life choices:

“I wanted this series to depict three women who make very different life choices... they completely accept one another 100%.” (02:22)

She elaborates on the feminist underpinnings of her work, highlighting the importance of respecting each woman's vocational and personal decisions. Kennedy reveals she is already penning her next book, hinting at continued exploration of her beloved characters and their evolving lives.

3. Supporting Representation and Fellow Authors

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the solidarity among authors, particularly within the Romance genre. Kennedy underscores the importance of promoting Black and Brown authors to increase visibility and representation:

“I'm very intentional about promoting black and brown authors because of reduced visibility.” (06:07)

She shares heartfelt anecdotes about established authors like Emily, Abby, Tia Williams, and Jasmine Guillory, who have actively supported her career. This mutual support system not only fosters a sense of community but also paves the way for diverse voices to flourish in the literary world.

4. Authentic Writing Process and Representation

Kennedy delves into her immersive writing process, which parallels her background in journalism. She emphasizes thorough research, including interviewing multiple families and engaging in master classes relevant to her characters' professions (21:35). This meticulous approach ensures authentic portrayal, especially when addressing sensitive topics like autism.

Addressing the depiction of a woman childless by choice, Kennedy explains her intent to challenge societal norms and highlight reproductive agency:

“Me making a choice not to have children is reproductive agency.” (16:28)

She thoughtfully incorporates preferred terminology regarding autism, demonstrating respect for individual preferences and experiences:

“It's part of the mission I sent that book on – therapy.” (26:09)

5. Impact on Readers and Social Issues

Kennedy is deeply moved by the feedback from her readers, many of whom have experienced personal transformations inspired by her books. She recounts stories of women leaving abusive relationships and reconnecting with estranged family members after reading her work:

“I have gotten so many messages from women who were in abusive relationships who left them after reading that book.” (50:24)

Her narratives aim to destigmatize therapy and mental health discussions, providing relatable and empowering stories that resonate with a diverse audience.

6. Diverse Family Structures and Normalization

The conversation highlights Kennedy's commitment to showcasing varied family dynamics, including blended families and same-sex marriages. She believes in normalizing different family structures through her storytelling:

“We should normalize that families look different... You can choose how your family looks.” (28:49)

By presenting these variations naturally within her books, Kennedy fosters a more inclusive and representative literary landscape.

7. Mental Health and Therapy in Literature

Kennedy shares her personal journey with depression, which parallels her character Yasmin's struggles in "Before I Let Go." She emphasizes the importance of therapy and its portrayal in her books to encourage readers to seek help:

“She said, I really don't care about your book. I need you to care. It's six months late.” (35:18)

This approach serves to destigmatize mental health care, particularly within marginalized communities, and underscores the transformative power of seeking support.

8. Adaptations and Future Endeavors

Discussing the adaptation of her books for television, Kennedy expresses enthusiasm and highlights the collaborative nature of the process:

“We're doing it now for the Skyland series over at Peacock and it's such a learning experience.” (52:22)

As an executive producer, she aims to ensure that the essence of her stories remains intact while navigating the complexities of adapting novels to screen.

9. Influences and Favorite Authors

Kennedy reveals her admiration for historical romance authors like Laura Kinsale and the late Bibi Moore Campbell, who inspired her to tackle complex and messy narratives authentically:

“She's been incredibly impactful to me because she writes very messy.” (56:14)

These influences have shaped her approach to writing realistic, flawed characters who engage in meaningful, transformative relationships.

10. Core Messages and Final Thoughts

Kale prompts Kennedy to summarize the overarching message of her books. Kennedy passionately affirms that her works encourage women to "never settle" in relationships, careers, or personal aspirations:

“You deserve respect. You deserve to be loved outrageously.” (47:33)

She challenges the misconception that romance novels promote unrealistic standards, clarifying that her stories celebrate self-worth, mutual respect, and empowering love.

Kennedy concludes by sharing her future projects, including the next installment in the Skyland series titled "Score," slated for a 2026 release. She invites listeners to connect with her via social media for updates on book signings and tour dates.

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Notable Quotes:

• Kennedy Ryan: “I wanted this series to depict three women who make very different life choices... they completely accept one another 100%.” (02:22)

• Kennedy Ryan: “I'm very intentional about promoting black and brown authors because of reduced visibility.” (06:07)

• Kennedy Ryan: “Me making a choice not to have children is reproductive agency.” (16:28)

• Kennedy Ryan: “I have gotten so many messages from women who were in abusive relationships who left them after reading that book.” (50:24)

• Kennedy Ryan: “We should normalize that families look different... You can choose how your family looks.” (28:49)

• Kennedy Ryan: “You deserve respect. You deserve to be loved outrageously.” (47:33)

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This episode of Barely Famous offers an insightful exploration into Kennedy Ryan's impactful storytelling, her dedication to authentic representation, and her unwavering commitment to empowering her readers through nuanced and diverse narratives.

Transcript

[Narrator]

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[Kale]

Welcome to the show. Things are going to get weird. It's your fave villain, Kale, and you're listening to Barely Famous. Welcome back to another episode of Barely Famous Podcast. Today I'm sitting with one of our favorite authors, Kennedy Ryan. Welcome to Barely Famous Podcast.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Kale]

I have been counting down the days until this interview and we've talked a little bit on social media because I.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Was like, I was all up in your DMs.

[Kale]

I'm so excited to be sitting here with you. And I did start your book. Can't get enough. Congratulations on the release.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Kale]

How has it been? What have the feelings been like about surrounding the release of this book?

[Kennedy Ryan]

You know, excited, obviously, but also bittersweet.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Because this series is coming to an end. You know, it's like leaving friends and Skyland is like a real place to me. You know, and so it feels like. And I'm excited about whatever's next. What is next? I'm already writing the next book. But still, you know, this is a series that really changed the trajectory of my life and of my career. So it's kind of bittersweet to leave it. And all of my readers are like, you could do a spin off. You could do this. You could do a novella. We're not ready to leave. So I think we're all kind of having, you know, early withdrawal.

[Kale]

Well, so how do you determine when it is the end of a series? Like, because you could keep going. How do you decide? Okay, this is the third book. This is the final book in the series.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Right. And who knows what will happen? You know, like a lot of people, for people who haven't read, these are three women, you know, who are, when we first start, they're like late 30s and now they're all like early 40s. Which is really cool for me in the context of the romance genre, because you don't always see it quota 40s, not old, but quote unquote, older women in the genre. So it started with these three women, and it's really like this friendship group. And so I just wanted to do a story for each of those three women, right? It was very intentional because I wanted these three women make very different life choices, right? Like the first, in the first book, before I let go. Yasmin, she is an entrepreneur, but she's also, you know, a mom, and she's engaged with her kids. And then Soledad in the second book is a stay at home mom, and she sees her home as like an enterprise, and she sees her highest calling as raising these amazing daughters, sending them out into the world. And Hendrix, in this third book, is childless by choice, and she's completely focused on her career. I really. It was very intentional to put these choices as coexisting, right? And these three women as coexisting and completely accepting one another 100%. Right. And what I really wanted to do with that is so many. That's the essence of feminism. That's the essence of womanism. And feminism is choice and respecting our choices. And so often culture pits us as women against each other for our choices. Like, you're lazy because you stay at home, you neglect your kids because you work. I want it to depict this group of women who. Who just accept one another and who respect each other's vocational and life choices. It was just that unit, you know, and it's really. I know it's a romance novel, but there is all kinds of love in here. And one of the core ones is that there is almost like this platonic soulmate friendship with these three women. And I really wanted to depict that. So it was just them three, like, the three of them. And so that's how we came to three books. But now, of course, people are like, what about their daughters? They're about to go to college. You could write a new adult. You could, you know, whatever.

[Kale]

So that would be kind of cool for the future. That would be really fun.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Asia and Lupe, who are the daughters? You know that. Yeah, people are really into that. And, you know, there's just all kinds of ideas that they have for me to write.

[Kale]

What's so funny is talking to you right now, you articulate and you speak the way that you write, which is really cool. I have not come across that with other authors yet, just because I think that sometimes authors put themselves in A different headspace to write, but because this is, you know, immersion and, you know, real life scenarios, it's so interesting that you actually are exactly like. It's almost like your voice is. I don't know. It's so interesting. So Abby Jimenez did a quote for the COVID of your book and said, kennedy Ryan is my go to for deep, emotional and sensual storytelling. What is it like to have the support of other authors?

[Kennedy Ryan]

It's amazing. And, you know, it's. It's so funny because it's. I have to pinch myself because I'm like, these people are my friends. Like, they're the biggest names in the business. Like, you know, people like Emily, Henry and Abby. And it's so funny because I was signing books somewhere the other day, and the person who was helping me was holding my phone to take a picture, and Tia Williams called and she's like, oh, my gosh, it's Tia Williams. Tia Williams is text is calling you. And I'm like, yeah. You know, so for me, it's like, these are my friends. How lucky am I that, like, some of the most talented writers of our generation, really, of romance writers, are my friends. And we. We look for ways to support each other. Yeah. So that feels. It feels amazing.

[Kale]

But that's not unlike the story, right, with the three best friends, women supporting women, even though they might not be in the same genre, they might not do the same, you know, campaign as you to launch the book that you gu. Are all supporting each other, which is really, really cool.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Absolutely. I look for chances to do that all the time. I'm always looking for ways to promote other authors, especially other authors who maybe are just getting started or who are getting less visibility. I'm very, very intentional about promoting black and brown authors because of reduced visibility. So they're always in my newsletter. I'm always shouting them out. I'm always reading them and making sure I mention them because, you know, it. It's tougher when you don't have the same level of visibility. So if I'm ever in on a platform in a position where I can promote people who are not getting the same level of visibility or traction, then I want to do that.

[Kale]

But speaking of visibility, because people have done that for me, really, Is there anyone that stands out in your mind right now that, you know, helps?

[Kennedy Ryan]

Yeah, I mean, people. People like Emily. You know, I was an indie author. I wasn't even traditionally published. And I don't know what made me. I. I read, be read, and I don't do this I slid into her DMs, into Emily's D. This is during the pandemic. And I'm like, hi, I'm Kennedy. Like, I write romance. You probably don't even have any idea who I am, but I have just, like, gone down a rabbit hole and read all your yas. And I was just gushing, and she's like, oh, my gosh, Kennedy, I'm reading Queen Move right now. Like, you know, it's like that. And then we started doing talks, you know, like, she would come on. We did a couple of podcasts together. Yeah. And she. She once. She said, kennedy, I need you to watch, like, Good Morning America tomorrow. And I was like, okay. I think it was Good Morning America. Okay. And I'm thinking, going to do a cover reveal or something. And she gets on there and they're asking her, and I didn't even watch because I forgot. And she's like, kennedy, did you see. And she was talking about my book, like, on Good Morning America, whatever show it was. And I was like, emily, she said.

[Kale]

I told you to watch.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And I was like, emily, I thought it was your cover reveal or something.

[Kale]

Did you see a clip of it, though?

[Kennedy Ryan]

I did. I did, yeah. So, I mean, she's done that for me. Like, Abby has done so much for me. Abby is constantly.

[Kale]

We talked about you the other week.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And she texted me. She's like, oh, my gosh, I've just been talking about you on my tour everywhere I go. Yeah. So, I mean, people are always doing that for me. Tia Williams and I are very good friends. We did, I think, three dates on our last tour together. We're doing two dates on this tour. Jasmine Guillory. The same. We're doing two dates together on this tour. So it's constantly looking for ways that you can promote other people. And I'm always looking for ways to promote indie authors, especially as much as.

[Kale]

Indie authors, you know, really appreciate that. I think the audience also really loves a good crossover. I always ask people, you know, what. What is your dream collab? If you could collab, would you with another author? And if you. If you. Your answer is yes, well, who would it be?

[Kennedy Ryan]

I think it would be hard. I think I would drive someone crazy.

[Kale]

Okay, fair enough.

[Kennedy Ryan]

My process is very intense and very immersive. But I did, you know, I've never co written with anyone except one person, and it was like a holiday novella. I don't know if you've ever read Sierra Simone.

[Kale]

No.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Oh, you should. Okay.

[Kale]

Okay.

[Kennedy Ryan]

She's a former Librarian.

[Kale]

Okay.

[Kennedy Ryan]

But she is just, she. I don't even know how to describe her brand because she wanted to be a nun. So she writes around priests and issues of religion and Catholicism but it's just absolutely filthy.

[Kale]

Are you serious?

[Kennedy Ryan]

Oh yes.

[Kale]

Oh my God, we have to be.

[Kennedy Ryan]

But then she is so brilliant. So the whole time that you're reading it you feel like I am reading someone's thesis. Like what is this? And she is a dream collab for me. When we wrote together we approach writing from different lenses but we often arrive at kind of like the same place.

[Kale]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And a lot of things I am constantly, I don't know if you're like a strengths finders person or personality, that kind of thing. One of my big strengths is one of my top strengths is belief.

[Kale]

Okay.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And so when your belief you're constantly looking for meaning, you're constantly want, you're looking for conviction and things that you know, dry. And so I'm constantly trying to figure out how is my work going to change the world. And Ciara's constantly asking about the world she doesn't care about. She's just like contemplating the world, you know what I mean? I don't know if that makes sense.

[Kale]

No, it does.

[Kennedy Ryan]

It's like I'm going from out in and she's going from like in out or whatever the opposite of that is. But she is a dream collaboration and we wrote like a holiday novella together and by the. I thought it was going to be so hard. By the time we finished we couldn't tell who had written what.

[Kale]

Like really literally just like seamless.

[Kennedy Ryan]

It was so seamless. And we had a Google Doc and she would go in and she'd be like, hey, I'm gonna adjust, adjust some stuff in chapter one. I'm like, cool. Oh, I think I'm gonna adjust some stuff in chapter three. By the end I was like, did you write this? She's like, I thought you wrote it, you know, so she's one of my closest friends in author world and I'm at, she's in, we're in Kansas City, she lives in that area. And so on the tour I'm gonna see her.

[Kale]

Oh, that's so exciting. Yeah, I'm sure people would love for a collab with her again.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Oh yeah. People constantly ask us to write a full length novel or you know, things like that. Yeah, I mean there's, there's several people who I could do that with but she's the one who comes to mind because I just, I admire her so much as a writer.

[Co-host]

Right.

[Kale]

And if you guys already know how each other works, that kind of. Yeah.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Like I don't know if it would actually happen, but she's one of like a huge dream clap. Because I am. She is. There are people who like there are people you love and then there are people who are writers. Writers.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Kennedy Ryan]

She is a writer's writer.

[Kale]

Okay.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Meaning when you're reading her work, you can't help but appreciate the craft of writing. And it's a little different. Like you admire lots of people, but when you're reading certain books, you're like, gosh, I wish I'd written this book. Or oh my gosh, I could never write this book. Or I see the craft that it took to create this and I admire this so much. And so you'll hear sometimes you'll hear writers talk about other writers as she's a writer's writer. That's kind of how, that's kind of how I think of her. Several people, but definitely her.

[Kale]

I think we, that's how we feel about you. Oh, 100%. Like there's just a different type of storytelling in your books that is very. It sets you apart from other authors. And no disrespect to any other authors. I'm just saying it's a very different experience reading your books. And I love that about you.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Thank you.

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[Kale]

In your books, you talk about a lot of realistic things and it's very immersive, but you are a mom. So how do you tell the story of a woman like Hendrix who is childless by choice? And, and, and I think that women who are childless by choice get a lot of hate and people don't understand it.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Right.

[Kale]

So how do you put yourself in that position to write from her perspective?

[Kennedy Ryan]

Yeah, and the. That is the thing. That's the very reason I wrote it. One of the hallmarks, I like to think one of the hallmarks of my brand as a storyteller is what I call scene ness, meaning I'm often writing from the margins to the center. And what I mean by that is there are certain identities, communities, decisions that relegate people to the edges.

[Kale]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Like, I think of that as like, black women, brown women, neurodivergent, fat, disabled. Like a lot of our stories are on the edges of culture, on the edges of cultural narrative. And I like to push those identities, those communities, those decisions to the center and say, okay, I know you're not used to seeing your story. You're used to being the sidekick, the best friend, the whatever. This, this story. You're the main character. You're gonna be. You're going to be centered, you're going to be loved outrageously. You deserve joy, you deserve a happily ever after. And we don't often see that. And in romance, in the context of romance as a genre, you rarely see women who are childless by choice like that interrogates what people's thought of a happily ever after is because they're like, oh, at the end, I want the bonus epilogue, and I want the proposal, and I want the marriage and I want the baby, you know, and this series, I think, is in a lot of ways interrogating what a happily ever after is.

[Kale]

Right?

[Kennedy Ryan]

Meaning looking at book one, which is before I let go, they start off divorced, you know, and it's like, okay, this is an interesting romance novel, book two by the end, and I don't want to be spoilery, but she's not even sure she wants to be married ever again.

[Kale]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And then in book three, yes, you know, but she's never gonna have children. And so I think this whole. All the books in this series and a lot of my work is interrogating what is a hell, happily ever after and who gets It.

[Kale]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

You know, and when you talk about childless by choice, who gets. Gets joy? Who gets a happily ever after? And when I was writing this story or talking about writing this story, it's so funny because there were people who were like, aren't you afraid that people will think Hendrix is cold?

[Kale]

No, I don't get that feeling.

[Kennedy Ryan]

I was like, why would you think. Why would you think that people would assume she was cold? Well, you know, she doesn't want to have kids. And it's so interesting to me because I had even like 20, 22 is when, before I let go, dropped. And I had hinted in that book, this woman doesn't want to have children. So it was really before this kind of cultural discourse that we've been having over the last May, six months or so exploded. So I already knew that about her, but I was like, I understand that people are defining women by our wombs.

[Kale]

We are interesting.

[Kennedy Ryan]

We are bigger. We are more than our reproductive capacity, you know, and we are in a space right now in our. In our country where we are being defined by our wombs. We are. Our bodily agency has been taken away from us. Our. Our. Our rights. Our bodily rights are being taken away from us. And Hendri articulates this in the book. Me making a choice not to have children is reproductive agency. It is me deciding. And like you said, I have a kid. So great. You have a kid and you don't. Great. We get to decide. She says this in the book. I get to decide how I move my body through this world.

[Kale]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And not only that, but you don't get to tell me where I put my love or how I express my love. I. And she says, you know, I'm a godmother. I'm an aunt. I'm a mom who's taking care of her aging parent who has Alzheimer's. You know, all these other things.

[Kale]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

There are women who are mothering.

[Co-host]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

You know what mothering actually is, who never physically have children.

[Kale]

And we should respect that 1,000%.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Yeah. And how they are contributing to the world.

[Kale]

It's interesting because all of the. All of the books in this series, I have related in some way. It doesn't matter what walk of life you come from. There are parts of all three of these books that you can relate to. And I absolutely love that.

[Kennedy Ryan]

I get so much feedback from women who have kids, stay at home, who relate to Hendrix.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Kennedy Ryan]

You know, and it's not. And that's the other thing is that we usually have so much more in Common than we don't. They relate to her drive, they relate to her compassion. They relate to the way she pours into the community. Like, this one thing about you doesn't completely define you.

[Kale]

Right. There's just different parts of all three that are so relatable, and I think so many people appreciate that.

[Kennedy Ryan]

About all the books we're also interrogating, like, why is it that men aren't ever questioned about the choices they make? If they choose not to have children, if they choose not to get married, like. Like, it's fine. But with women, it's like there's a clock, There's a why, there's a. All these expectations. And I like to write women who are like, you don't get to define me.

[Kale]

I get to define me 100%. I love that. And in book, in this Could Be Us, you write about autism.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Yeah.

[Kale]

Which I think is huge. And there's so many people who resonate with that. So what made you decide that you wanted to include. Incorporate that in your books?

[Kennedy Ryan]

Yeah, I am. I'm. I'm an autism mom, you know, and I have been for over 20 years. My son was diagnosed when he was two years old, and maybe two years after that, I actually started a foundation for families who have children with autism. I ran it for, like 11 years. Then when my career kind of took off, I ended up transitioning into what we have now, which is Live for Autism, a bookish auction that raises money for autism. So I'm deeply embedded in autism advocacy, in autism fundraising. That whole world has been my life, you know, for a long time and is probably a lifelong passion. But I had never written about it.

[Kale]

Okay.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And I wasn't sure when I would or. I thought probably that the first time I wrote about autism, it might be our family's story or a memoir or self help or parenting book or something like that. And when I got to Soledad's story, I was like, I think I'm ready to write about this. Because working with autistic families for so long and, you know, even just knowing the things that we have done, my husband and I have done with our son, there's some of the most, most sacrificially loving parents that you will ever meet. And I wanted the energy and the devotion as a father to match Soledad's priority for her children. I was like, what does a partner. Because this. I always talk about this when I'm writing a woman and a man. I build the woman first, and then I write a man who deserves her A man who is worthy of her. And so I knew who Soledad was as a character, and I knew that the most important thing in the world to her was her children.

[Kale]

Right?

[Kennedy Ryan]

And I was like, I want to give her a part partner who. The most important thing in the world to him is his kids. And when I started thinking about what does that father look like, I thought about my husband, you know, and how the kind of dad he is to our son and, you know, our son, he. It's not. A lot of the things that he does and wants and says are not, quote, unquote, age appropriate, but I call them Miles appropriate. His name is Miles because it's whenever he learns to do things, whenever he wants to do things, but he walks sometimes. We're walking through the grocery store now. My husband is six five.

[Kale]

Okay.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And my son is six, three. So you're talking about two big guys. Two big guys. And my son will grab his hand, and they will. He will hold his hand throughout walking through the grocery store, these two big guys. And he's, like, holding his hand, and he's just so tender with them, you know, And I'm like. And I've seen that, not just from my husband, but I've seen that with other parents throughout the years when I've been working with the autism community. And I was like, what if, you know, I. I depicted a dad who was that level of devoted, right. And that level of accepting of his children. And I thought, you know, depicting specific identity in that community was something that I had a lot of investment in.

[Kale]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

But it's such a spectrum condition that even writing that book, I still interviewed probably another 10 families.

[Kale]

So that is part of your interview or part of your writing process all the time?

[Kennedy Ryan]

Yeah. My background is journalism, and so I. I think I kind of approach writing fiction the same way I do journalism. Journalism, yeah. So I. Before I write anything, I have, I make a list of stuff, subjects, you know, people I'm going to interview. And it's usually it's coming out of what are the lived experiences of the characters and what. What are the vocations of these characters? So usually I'm interviewing probably 10 or so people, and then I'm reading a lot. The book I'm reading now, I just read five memoirs. Four, I'm reading a lot. And then I also take master classes. You know, like, I'm. When I wrote a book real, a couple of years ago, he was a filmmaker, and so I took master classes from, like, Scorsese and Spike Lee and All of directors, and I took a masterclass on cinematography. And the guy who I'm writing now, he's. He's a composer. I'm taking a masterclass on scoring. You know, it's like, I need to be. I need to be well versed.

[Kale]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

You know, if you're writing a character who is obsessed with filmmaking, you expect that sometimes I'm not going to know what the heck he's talking about. He just goes off and starts talking about the 70 millimeter of this. And I'm like, I need that jargon. I need that language. I need to be able to embody that passion. And I can't do it on the surface.

[Kale]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

So it's a very immersive process. And I do all of that before I even write. I think, like, that process is probably 60% of the project is just that. And then the last 40 is maybe writing.

[Kale]

So what would.

[Co-host]

How.

[Kale]

What would you say the timeframe is for by the time you do? We'll call it research. And you're the journalism aspect of it.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Yeah.

[Kale]

How long does that take before you even develop the story?

[Kennedy Ryan]

It'll vary from book to book depending on how much research I have to do.

[Co-host]

Okay.

[Kennedy Ryan]

This one is very intense. And I think take extra care when it's a live. When it's a marginalized or a disabled experience, because I just don't want to get that wrong, you know, And I'm very careful. Like, even when I wrote this Could Be Us, obviously I interviewed other parents, but I interviewed, you know, healthcare professionals. And then I hired an actually autistic editor.

[Co-host]

Wow.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Meaning I wanted someone who was actually autistic to edit the book before I sent it to my publisher. I wanted someone who was actually autistic to go through the entire novel and make sure that I wasn't doing harm to that community, that I wasn't infantilizing those kids. Because that happens a lot with autistic people. It's sometimes, especially if, like, my son is only partially verbal and one of the characters, one of the twin boys, is only partially verbal, there tends to be this assumption that because they can't talk or whatever, that they aren't. That they are not as far. As long as maybe they will be. So it was so helpful because she identified, you know, let's not say that. Let's not say it that way. Okay. This is a little infantilizing. And this is me, somebody who. Who's been, you know, raising an autistic kid and really embedded in the community for 20 years. But I am not autistic.

[Kale]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And so I'm very careful with all those, like, lived experiences.

[Kale]

When I was putting together the questions for this interview, I asked the team, and maybe you could tell me, is it children with autism or autistic children, or can it be both?

[Kennedy Ryan]

Yeah. And I address. I actually address that in the book because some people prefer children with autism and some people prefer autistic children. Children and. Or autistic people. And it's best just to ask people what you prefer. And literally in the book, there's a scene where the social worker comes in and she goes, do you prefer autistic children or with autism? And they say what they prefer. And I put that there because part of the reason it was so hard for me to think about writing autism for a long time is because everybody has ideas about everything.

[Kale]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

A lot of them are competing ideas. And it can get like, no, this is right. No, this is wrong. No, you're doing this wrong. Oh, you're a bad mom. Or you're. And it's hard to write a story that encompasses all of that.

[Kale]

Yes.

[Kennedy Ryan]

So you can't, you know, you just write a story that's respectful of different viewpoints. And so that's what, you know, that's the way.

[Kale]

Including that part of the conversation was important.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Including that part of the conversation was important because if I just said autistic, then the people who are like, with, no, it's with autism, and. And the opposite. So I just wanted to demonstrate that for me, me, what's important is respect is respecting what people want.

[Kale]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And so he could. They could have answered the opposite way. Like they could have said autistic or with autism. But the point is that you ask and that you respect what people want and how they want to refer to themselves.

[Kale]

Right? No, that makes complete sense.

[Co-host]

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[Kale]

You're also representing blended families and step parents and a step parent stepping into a new family and connecting with, you know, what would be eventually, maybe, maybe, yeah, step kids or just your lifelong partner and their children. And I thought that was really cool too because I, you know, have blended families with all my children's dads and so I thought that was really cool to represent that too, like with the story and it's cohesive and it doesn't feel like too much. It literally feels like something that would happen every single day.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Well, and that's what I like about it is I like when I was talking about seenness, like people who may not used to be seeing themselves in cultural narrative at the center is I, I like to write in ways where people recognize themselves. Like, oh, that's what I do. Oh, that's how that's what my family looks like.

[Co-host]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And I think normalizing that families look different, you know, I have in can't get enough. We have two women, you know, who are married, who have a child and in this could be us. And before, before I let go, we have two guys who have adopted a kid. Like it is, is you. We should normalize that. You can choose how your family looks.

[Kale]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And I think the more. And it's not like a big deal, like, oh look, it's these two guys. Yeah, they're just the neighbors, you know, and they're just like, oh, your baby. Yeah, it's, it's Normalizing to see the different iterations of what family looks like and it should be. And I hope that when we normalize it that way, people begin to respect people's choices.

[Kale]

100. It reminds me of when the movie. Movie Encanto came out and, you know, all the kids that were seeing, you know, black and brown kids.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Yeah.

[Kale]

We're seeing themselves, you know, and the representation of it. And it was in such a way that made sense, you know, and so I feel like that's the same for your book.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kale]

I love that.

[Kennedy Ryan]

I hope so. I am somebody who's, like, real precious about writing, and I feel like there's like this element of the divine.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Kennedy Ryan]

In the creative process, whatever that means to different people.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Kennedy Ryan]

But I'm always looking for something that says, you're on the. The right path and that. And the reason I want to make sure I'm on the right path is because I believe. I believe I was put on this earth to tell stories that will crater in people's lives, that will have a. A lasting impact. So I'm constantly looking, and I believe that if I write the right story at the right time, it will find people where they are. And so I'm always like, am I on the right track? And so, of course, I wrote before I let go first. I written before I let go, like in 2022. So Soledad was already established as the name.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And so then when I was writing this Could Be a Us Bell Hooks has a book called All About Love. And it is one of the books that Soledad reads when she's rebuilding herself after her husband who's trash ass.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Right.

[Kale]

Like him.

[Kennedy Ryan]

We don't like him. You know, he's. When once he's, you know, out of the picture, which is not super spoilery because even in the, you know, in the blurb, we say that. And she's re rebuilding her life. She's reading this book called All About Love by bell hooks, which is like a true treatise, like a feminism treatist on loving yourself first. And she actually starts to self partner, which you're like, okay, it's a romance novel. Why is she dating herself for half the book?

[Kale]

Because it's necessary.

[Kennedy Ryan]

It is necessary, but people don't talk about it.

[Kale]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

I mean, in certain situations when you're healing from something else, you don't want to go into the next thing with those things unresolved. Anyway, I'm on an airplane and I'm read. I was like, there's two books that I want to read as foundation for building Soledad's character. One was, I was going to reread Their Eyes were Watching God by Zora Neale Hurston, which is, if anyone's familiar with that, the heroine is Janie, and she basically lives in the shadow of men her whole life, you know, and then over time, like, builds herself and self actualizes. And I was like, I'm finally going to read all about love by bell hooks. So I'm on this airplane and I'm reading, and I come ac. And it's in the book, too. Like, Soledad has this moment because I had this moment. I'm reading all about love. And bell hooks refers to, like, this place of peace that she has created for herself as Soledad. Her most. Right. And it's. It's. It's. I think it's Spanish. Yeah. She goes, soledad. Her. And I was like, wait a minute, Wait a minute. Okay, does that say Soledad? You know, in this book that was written, like, 30 years ago, you know, that I did not even know about. When I named Soledad in book one, and her name just pops out, and I'm like, oh, my. I started crying because I was like. And everybody thinks that when they read that and they book in the book, they think that I chose the name Soledad because it's in that book. And I'm like, no, I chose that name long ago. It just was there, and it was resonant.

[Kale]

And that's how, you know, it was meant to be.

[Kennedy Ryan]

That's how. That's. Yeah, that's how I know it was meant to be.

[Kale]

Do you ever incorporate parts of yourself in any of your characters?

[Kennedy Ryan]

Oh, for sure. Yeah, for sure. I think I didn't want it to be this way, but when I was writing before I let go, and I've talked about this very openly, that character Yasmin is coming out of a very deep depression. She's had a major law, a few major losses that drive her into a very dark place. And she ends up going into a deep depression, and she and her husband end up not really recovering from that season of their life and divorcing.

[Kale]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And so when I was writing that book. Well, first of all, I wrote the first version of that book. It's the first book I ever wrote. I wrote it 15 years ago before I let go.

[Kale]

Are you serious?

[Kennedy Ryan]

Yeah. I wrote like, it was this. It was the couple, it was the, you know, restaurant. It was the kids, it was the losses. It was all of that. And I wrote. It was. I Just wanted to see if I could write a book. So it's the first. It had a different name.

[Kale]

For Funsies.

[Kennedy Ryan]

For. For Funsies. Yes.

[Kale]

Like, you were just like, I'll just try this.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Yeah. I mean, because I was a writer, you know, that was what I was doing. I could do that. And then I started reading romance again. I've been reading romance since I was in the eighth grade, had stopped, came back to it later in life, loved it, and was like, maybe I could write a romance. And I was like, let me just see.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Kennedy Ryan]

So I write before I let go, but it's called something different. And the friend group wasn't there.

[Kale]

Okay.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Like, it was just. And I always say that book was waiting for me to grow up, like, because it had all the hurt and none of the healing. It didn't have the therapy. It didn't have all of those things. And I. I honestly think that because I had another 15 years to live as a wife and as a mom and as a friend and to grow it myself.

[Kale]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

All of that informed that character. So what? She was dying. She obviously is navigating depression. And I was writing the, you know, rewriting the version of it from 15 years ago, which is what we have now, and the book was, like, months late, and I had the worst writer's block. And I was like, what is this? And I go to my writing coach, and she's like, we talked for a while. She said, you know what? I don't think this is writer's block. I think you need to talk to somebody.

[Kale]

I'm like, no, talk to someone. Like, who?

[Kennedy Ryan]

A therapist. And so I was diagnosed with. With depression while I was writing before I let go. And so I had. I. The same things that Yasmin is navigating, finding a therapist. I went through. Through three therapists before I found the right one. She does the same thing in the book. And then, you know, there was this. And especially it's. I think there's a. One of the things I set out to do with that book was to destigmatize therapy because it's, you know, stigmatized everywhere. But especially when you get into marginalized communities, it gets even worse. And then black men. It's like, whoa. You know, and so I really wanted to. To deal with that, and I started taking antidepressants, and it immediately, you know, I felt a difference immediately. So Yasmin starts doing that. There's so many. I don't advise writing a book about depression when you're in the middle of it yourself.

[Kale]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

But the first time I went to the therapist that actually worked, I said, look, I got a book due, and it's six months late. I just need you to fix me so I can finish my book. And she said, I really don't care about your book. You know, I need you to care. It's six months late.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And she was like, I really don't care about that book. She said, I believe if we just focus on you, you. You could write the best book of your life. And I don't know what the best book of my life is, but I know that Before I Let Go is the book that changed my life and that changed my career. And so definitely there's so much of me there. Obviously, there's a lot of me that's in Soledad's story. And I think people will be interested to know that, you know, Hendrix is childless by choice.

[Kale]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And I'm, you know, very obviously very, very passionate Mom. I think I'm more like Hendrix than I am anybody else in the series.

[Kale]

I was thinking that, too, myself. Truly. Like, I relate to her a lot.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Yes, I do, too.

[Kale]

But what. So I talk about therapy all the time. Yeah. I did intensive therapy for four and a half years, twice a week. And I just put my. I took a little bit of a break and then put myself back in therapy pretty recently. And I think that, to your point, it is so stigmatized.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Oh, yeah.

[Kale]

And it's so important. And I think, if I remember correctly, and before I let go, Josiah was like, sort of. Yes, against it.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Very deliberate.

[Kale]

And we have to talk about it. And if we talk about it, maybe they'll understand it and they'll have a different perspective. And so I. I think that incorporating things like that in your book is so, so, so important just for everybody.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Yeah. And I did it specifically for that. Like, I wanted women. Because sometimes when I hear. Like, when readers talk to me about. They'll be like, I didn't like the fact that Josiah wouldn't go to therapy.

[Kale]

But that's real life.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Right. And also, I wanted to model for women who have that experience. I wanted them to see a partner on page who is resistant to therapy and over the course of the story, sees the value of it and begins to change, engages in therapy and begins to he. Because if he hadn't done that work on himself, they would not have been able to reconcile. Right. And so women. What I love is that so many women are in my DMs, and they're like, I just give the book to him now. And I just say, just read this. And she's. You know, they'll say, we're in couples therapy now. He's in therapy. I called my insurance company to see, you know, if. If it's pay. If they'll pay for therapy. That for me is my intention. Like I talk about not just releasing books, but sending them on a mission.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And that's the mission I sent that book on.

[Kale]

100% was.

[Kennedy Ryan]

That was therapy.

[Kale]

And I. That's great. I think that men specifically too, just in general, no matter walk of life, like men seem to be more resistant than women to therapy. And I just don't know why.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Yeah.

[Kale]

So it's. It's really cool that you. How has your husband been supportive through, like, incorporating things like that?

[Kennedy Ryan]

Oh, I mean, completely. You know, he and I were talking the other day. I mean, he's with me on tour. You know, he goes with me on tour. He's. He's incredibly supportive of everything. Like, my writing process is so immersive that it's hard sometimes for me to like, be in the real world and write. And so I will go away to a hotel or something for a week at a time and I will get. Let's say it takes me a month to get 20,000 words written. That's just kind of arbitrary. In that week, I will write as much as I could have that I. As I wrote in a month. And my husband holds the house down. He takes care of, you know, our son. He's like, just go. Just do it. Just do what you have to do. He's incredible, is supportive all the time and. But I'm that way for him too. Like, throughout our lives, we have always looked for, what do I need to do to make things better for you? There is this line in Can't Get Enough where the hero says, let's just be good to each other. And what I mean by that is, we're going to be fine. You know, you don't have to think about insecurity. You don't have to think about if you're. If you want what's best for me and I want what's best for you. And we're actively seeking that for every. Each other. We'll be fine. You know, So I also want. I want to model for women that you don't have to settle for someone who is intimidated by you. You don't have to settle for someone who needs to diminish you to make them feel bigger. You don't have to settle for someone who, who thinks that their ambitions and their goals and their dreams should supersede yours.

[Kale]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

You know, and I, I have that in my husband. Like he has his own ambitions, he has his own goals and dreams, but he is not never asking me to sacrifice mine for that. And we are constantly looking for ways to support each other. And he's, he's been listening to can't get enough on audio, which is how he prefers to read. And he's just getting a, a kick out of the fact he's like, I always see us in these books. I always see parts of our lives in these books.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And so it's kind of, it's, it's fun.

[Co-host]

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[Kennedy Ryan]

I started thinking about honestly the scarcity of Black Romance on shelves. I wasn't seeing it in bookstores, I wasn't Seeing it enough, I wasn't seeing our faces. I wasn't seeing our stories. And I recognize that I had built a platform where if I was properly supported and I had the right resources and I had the right team and I could get visibility, that I was in a position where I could do something for me. Yes. For my career, where I would possibly see. And it's so funny that I say this, because when I started talking with my friends, I was like, we started talking about the branding for the series and talking about what I wanted the covers to look like. And I was like, I wanted to it to be unambiguously black women with their natural hair. I was like, because imagine if one day we are seeing these books on the shelves in bookstores. And then I specifically said, imagine if we saw this glorious black woman with a big afro on a billboard one day.

[Kale]

Right?

[Kennedy Ryan]

Right. And so I get chills, too. And so before I let go was a GMA buzz pick, and it was on their billboard. And then this Could Be Us was Amazon's best romance of the year, and it was on their billboard. And every time I look at it and every time I walk into a bookstore and I see my books there and I see these beautiful black women with their natural hair, I'm like, this is. This is what it was supposed to be. And when one of us succeeds it, it convinces some people, oh, it's not just her. Like, if we support black authors, if we give them resources, if we help them find visibility, and not only that, if we give them them voice where they can curate a space that centers what black women want or what brown women want. Like, not just, like, I want to squeeze you into this space that I've already created, but I'm going to allow you to curate a space for blackness, right? Where it's like, what do you want to see on your cover? How do we reach you? How do we reach these readers? What are they looking for? What do they want to see on the page? When you are given space to do that, that's where blackness, brownness, disability, all of those marginalizations thrive when we are given voice and. And space. Right? And so that's what this was. You know, this whole series was that. And it's so funny because now I'm like, somebody's like, yeah, they told me, you know, we saw what Kennedy Ryan did, and we just. We're like, we can do that.

[Kale]

Yes.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And I'm like, yes.

[Kale]

How does that feel, though? How does that feel?

[Kennedy Ryan]

It's not just me. I mean, I All these authors who are doing that. But we have even a piece of influencing anyone to. To say, well, if they can do it with her, let me find mine, you know, Let me find who we can build up that way, who we can make successful. It feels incredible, you know, And I. I think, like, there are a couple of times when I've won awards where it was like, oh, no black author's ever done this, or, no black author's ever done this, or, you know, whatever. For me, it's like when you break through a ceiling, you have to reach back. When you kick open a door, you have to leave it a jar. Like, you don't. I was raised that way. You don't hoard things for yourself. You're constantly looking for how you can help other people. And that is good energy.

[Kale]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And it propels you forward and it propels other people forward. There's such a scarcity mentality sometimes.

[Kale]

Yes.

[Kennedy Ryan]

When people feel they're in competition with each other.

[Kale]

I don't understand it.

[Kennedy Ryan]

I don't understand that. It's. It's in. It's. I know it's not literally infinite, but it feels like there's infinite readers, you know, Like I'm not competing with other authors for readers. I'm competing with. With myself.

[Kale]

Right. I always say that there's room for everybody at the top. We might not be sitting together, but there's room for all of us. And there's no reason why you can't bring up other people when you're making your way at the top. I don't understand the gatekeeping situation. If you had to sum up, I guess, what your books give or, or. Or a message that you would like readers to take from your books as a whole, what would it be specifically.

[Kennedy Ryan]

For women to never settle in relationships, career, everything? Never settle. Yeah. And that when you're through life, people are constantly going to be negotiating with you. They're constantly going to be negotiating for you to settle. No, you can't have the family. If you want this. No, you can't have, you know, this career. If you want this man, you can't have this. If you want that, you're going to have to. And sometimes you do have to make choices, you know, and you. Maybe you can't have everything at the same time, but Hendricks is a great example of this because she's talking about, you know, I. First of all, she is someone who's 40 years old. You know, she. And the reason I like writing, quote, unquote, older characters, not that that 40 is old, but in romance, 40 is older. The reason I like writing older characters is because I like women who have spent time with themselves. I like women who unders. Who have taken the time to really understand what they want out of life.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Kennedy Ryan]

You know, because when you really understand who you are and what you want out of life, it is harder for some trash man to convince you otherwise. Right? Like, you're like, no, that's not. You're trying to tell me that that's who I am. I already know who I am. I'm not looking for you to tell me who I am. I'm not looking for you to tell me what my life is going to be or what I need. I already know that. Yeah, I can't. I'll misquote it, but I. It's actually a quote in this Could Be Us. It's Eartha Kit. And she talks about how she wants to live this amazing life, and she's looking for a partner who will come and walk beside her, who will share that life with her, and that's Hendrick. She's like, you're not going to shrink me so that you can feel bigger. And I. I would rather go through this life with an amazing family, with great friends, with God, kids, love everywhere. And, you know, she says, you know, I can get dick anytime I want. You know, like, so she's like, I don't. I don't need that. You know, like, she's like, I can. I can have all of these things. What I'm not going to do is compromise who I am to be with you. I'm not going to settle for less. And that's one thing. That. That's a resonant message that I hope every. Every woman who's reading any of my books realizes. You are worthy. You deserve respect. And I always say this. You deserve to be loved outrageously.

[Kale]

Yes.

[Kennedy Ryan]

You know, and it really gets on my nerves when people who don't really know romance talk about unrealistic expectations and talk about how, you know, women, that we're so weak minded that we're gonna read about a billionaire, we're gonna think the only man they're telling me to get is a billionaire. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, like, how weak minded do you think we are?

[Kale]

Right?

[Kennedy Ryan]

Because what women are really drawn to is being respected, is being loved, is being considered. You know, that's what. That's what's true in those books, you know? And so that's, I think, the message I want women to get Is you.

[Kale]

Don'T have to settle men or any relationship doesn't have to be a man. It can be same sex, or you want a partner who's going to add value. You're not related to. Like, I think so often we hear that. We hear men talk about, we need a man to be happy. No, we. We are happy ourselves. We find value in ourselves, but we want someone to add value and walk beside us.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Yes.

[Kale]

And. And I appreciate that. In all of your books, is there a message that a reader or someone from your audience has ever said to you or messaged you that has stuck with you?

[Kennedy Ryan]

So many. And I, you know, at. At some point, I realized I had to ask myself, like, what does success look like for me? And I kind of had to change the metric because I'm like, who knows if I'll ever hit the New York Times list? Who knows if I'll ever get books made into a movie or whatever? Who knows if these things will happen.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Because some of them are so out of your control. And I was like, I cannot. I'm not the kind of person who wants my happiness held hostage to things that are completely out of my control.

[Kale]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And so I was like, okay, my first metric of success is going to. To be impact. How do I. I don't know how successful the book is going to be, but does it reach and touch the people I meant for it to. Right. And so that has been my metric for success for years. And so some of the most impactful messages I have received, I have a book about. It's a survivor story. You know, people are always like, is this even a romance? You know, because she is getting out of an abusive relationship, healing herself, and then finds love. And. And I have gotten so many messages from women who were in abusive relationships who left them after reading that book. I have gotten so many messages from women who grew up in abusive households and never understood why their mom stayed, who said, I hadn't talked to my mom in five, six, seven years. And after I read Longshot, I went back to her and said, now I understand. So all kinds of messages out of Long Shot, so many out of. Before I let go, around depression, around grief, around loss, you know, and then what's really impactful is just people saying, I wrote a book called Real, and it has. The heroin has lupus, you know, and so many people are like, thank you for writing. I've never seen, you know, a heroine in a romance novel who had lupus.

[Co-host]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And that it ends joyfully.

[Kale]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

You know, and that she's being loved unconditionally. So for me, it's the sameness. It's like I see myself and it's the, the impact of making those decisions where it's like somehow you wrote this fictional thing that was a connection to my real life and it actually changed what I chose or it changed what I did.

[Kale]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Those little moments of transformation are for me what it's about.

[Kale]

I love that so much.

[Co-host]

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[Kale]

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[Kale]

If you could do an adaptation of your books to a movie or tv, would you do it?

[Kennedy Ryan]

Yeah, I mean, you know, we're doing it now for the Skyland series over at Peacock and it's such a learning experience. It is such a learning experience, but it's, it's such an amazing team that's working on it.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Kennedy Ryan]

But so yes, I would definitely do it. I am fortunate to be an executive producer in the process. So I get a little bit of voice.

[Kale]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

I'm one voice, you know, one voice in the chorus of voices because it's a lot of voices. But I, I am not the kind of person who drops my book off and is like, let me know how it goes.

[Co-host]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

You know, So I, if I would avoid, avoid situations like that because it would be too frustrating for me.

[Kale]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

At the same time, I don't, I am young in that process, so I don't want to assume I know everything. I just want to be involved, you know, and so that's what I've, what I've shot for.

[Kale]

I think for the audience, we sometimes get frustrated with how they have to change certain things from books to movies or books to TV shows. And so I do like to talk about it on the podcast as much as possible, because I think Colleen Hoover was the first person to open my eyes to why certain things have to, to change. And in her experience, if I remember correctly, is that, you know, you're writing, we'll say 350 pages for a book.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Yeah.

[Kale]

But in order to tell the story for a movie, you have to cut that TV or movie script down to 150 pages. And so there are details that you have to cut to make sense to the viewers.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Right.

[Kale]

And I think that no matter how many times I say that, people still get frustrated. And so that's why I wanted to touch on it again. Yeah.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And I think also when you. It's a different form. So when you're reading a novel, you know, we have the benefit of that character's thoughts.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Kennedy Ryan]

You know, so we know exactly what they're thinking. When you, when it's on screen, you don't have that, like in a script, you don't have that unless you like do the internal voice, you know, but most, most of the time you're not.

[Kale]

You'Re not doing that.

[Kennedy Ryan]

So that affects those decisions. And then for me, these books and it's all three stories that are being adapted for television. It is not a movie and it's not, not like this is what happened. And we're going to put it into this two hour block.

[Kale]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

This is being adapted for television.

[Kale]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Which is hopefully an ongoing series.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Kennedy Ryan]

So. And then you have. It's an ensemble cast, you know, so these books are written chronologically and so you may have to bring these. You know what I mean? You have to adjust sometimes you have to adjust timeline sometimes, you know, to make it all work at the same time. Like there's certain things. Yeah.

[Kale]

For tv.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Tv, yeah. So that is something that I have to get used to. And I'm sure my writer, my readers will, because they're like. But wait a minute. You know, But I think the thing that's also hard for them is like casting, like they have this very specific Thing in their mind, they're like, what? Who is that? You know, so it's. It's very interesting. But for me, I understand, too, that when you're adapting something for television and you want it to be season after season after season, it has. Has to have this engine. It has to have something that keeps making it go.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And sometimes, like in a book that's more quiet, like, Before I Let Go is a book that's a little. When I say a little more quiet, so much of it is depending on what the characters are thinking and feeling. And then in a book like this Could Be Us, there's a lot of action.

[Kale]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

You know, there's like, the embezzlement, and then there's, you know, it's like, oh, he's in prison. Oh. You know, it's all these like, whoa, whoa. Explosion after explosion. Yeah. And what I mean by Before I Let Go is a little more quiet is we're talking about she's wrestling with depression, you know, he's wrestling with grief. And what. They're in therapy, and it's just. It's not as much of a, like, boom, surprise shot.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And so you kind of have to figure out, you know, how are we going to even all of this out and keep the audience engaged?

[Kale]

But I think that's really important for you to talk about so that your readers can understand, because I think there's a world where you can love the TV show or the movie. The movie and the books, you know, and. And not have to. Oh, I like the books better. Well, yeah. You know, there's a way to tell both stories in both formats.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Yes.

[Kale]

Do you have any favorite authors?

[Kennedy Ryan]

Oh, yeah, I definitely do. I was. I started reading, like I said romance really young. I started reading in the eighth grade. So I was what we sometimes call imprinted by historical romance. Okay, so a lot of people now aren't reading historical romance, you know, never.

[Co-host]

Even heard of that.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Historical romance?

[Kale]

No.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Oh, my God.

[Kale]

I've never heard of that until you said it.

[Kennedy Ryan]

I've got some suggestions. So some of my favorite authors are historical romance authors. They're not people that are on, like, the tips of people's tongues, you know, like, one of my favorite authors is Laura Kinsale, and she writes historical romance. And she's been incredibly impactful to me because she writes very messy. And what. That's influenced me because a lot of my books are kind of messy, you know, like, even can't get it enough. It's. There's some messiness to it, this could be us. I mean, you know, the love interest sent her husband to prison. You know, it's like there's, you know, and in the first book, you know, he starts this relationship with like the ship. Like it's, there's messiness to it.

[Kale]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And I enjoyed that because it's real. It's real.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And I enjoy. I don't, like, I don't try to even write perfect characters. I write, you know, good people who are flawed and then some really like trash ass people too. But, you know, when we're talking about like the main characters, like the people that, that we want you rooting for, they're not going to be perfect, they're going to be flawed, but still like, you know, good people who are figuring things out. And she is an author who does not placate the, the reader, does not make things easy. You know, it's messy, it's sometimes dense. And you're like, okay, this is a lot. How are we going to get out of this? I love that.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And she is an author who does that. One of my favorite authors who is. She's actually no longer with us. Her name is Bibi Moore Campbell and I was reading her growing up and she has a book called 72 Hour Hold. And it was one of the first books I read that really tackled mental health. And it was even more. This is when I was like in high school. It was even more taboo then for her to write about. That was such a. Whoa. And that kind of imprinted on me too, like tackling these like, heavy topics, but in something that's very commercial. And I. It's one of the first ways when I really. And I talk about this all the time, how I, I see romance as a Trojan horse. Yeah, it's one of the first times. And that's not necessarily romance, but I started applying it to my genre and thinking I can have such good discourse in romance because it's so digestible.

[Co-host]

Right.

[Kennedy Ryan]

You know, people love it, they're enjoying it. And then I'm like, oh, but let's talk about some real stuff. You know, if you're having such a good time and your guard is down, you know, let's throw this in. Let's throw this in there. What do you think about depression? You know, what do you think about. Whoa. And so I, I don't necessarily write escapist romance, which there's, it's completely fine. I love escapist romance. I want it sometimes too, but I'm usually writing something that is not escaping from real life, but that is reflecting real life.

[Kale]

Almost like giving perspective.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Yes, for sure. Yeah. One of my favorite quotes is from Nina Simone, and she says, an artist's duty is. Is to reflect the times. And so I'm constantly looking for ways. Even in this book, we're talking a little bit about equity and inclusion.

[Kale]

Right?

[Kennedy Ryan]

You know, we're talking, you know, there's all kinds of things. It's like, how can I reflect the times? And I kind of have like this. I'm such a nerd about it. But I have kind of like this three pronged strategy that determines when I'm going to write a book.

[Kale]

Okay.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And the first is creative integrity, creative conviction, which goes back to like, belief. Like, do I really believe in this thing? Does it hold meaning? Intellectual curiosity? Like, am I going to be learning something? Will my readers want to learn? And then the last is artistic urgency, which is, how is this work for me a work of art? How is this work intersecting with something that's happening in the world right now? And if I write about this right now, does it further that discourse? Will it ha. Will it cause someone to inter. Ask questions about that? To interrogate that? So when I write this down thing, it puts these, these issues, these questions in front of people in a way that maybe they wouldn't have entertained had it not been for a romance.

[Kale]

1,000%. And you're right on time with all three of the Skyland series. I think they were all right on time for sure. I love them. Future books. You said that you're already writing something new. Is it a new series or a standalone?

[Kennedy Ryan]

No, it is like, I have a book that we re released. I had self published it and my publisher re released it traditionally last year. It's called. Called Real, which is one of my favorite books I've ever written. I love the Harlem Renaissance. And it has a Harlem Renaissance like story within a story.

[Kale]

Okay.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And this is in that same world. And my favorite thing to write is creatives. And so this is. It's called Hollywood Renaissance. They are making a biopic. I will date myself. But Halle Berry did Introducing Dorothy Dandridge. Like back in the maybe like late 90s, she did a. A biopic about Dorothy Dandridge. And there were these people who had never heard of Dorothy Dandridge. And so this director finds this kind of obscure figure from like the Harlem Renaissance named Desi Blue, fictional. But he finds her and he's like, discovers all these amazing things about her that we never knew because of the time she lived in. So he decides he's going to do a biopic. So the whole series is the biopic they're doing. So the first book is the director and the actress, and the book I'm writing now is the composer and the screenwriter. And then the third book is the costume designer, one of the producers. And it's like this whole. Whole cast of creatives.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Kennedy Ryan]

And it's basically how they're finding love. But it's on the set of this biopic, and it's like negotiating, you know, all their love stories in the context of making this movie. So the next book is called Score, which is the composer.

[Kale]

So real is the first one.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Score is the one I'm writing now.

[Kale]

Do you have a timeline?

[Kennedy Ryan]

I mean, I'm in the first draft of it. It'll come out sometime in 2026.

[Kale]

Okay, so soon? Because we're already almost halfway through 2025, which is crazy.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Yeah. But sometime in 2026.

[Kale]

That's so exciting. And thank you so much for coming on. Where can people find you?

[Kennedy Ryan]

I'm on socials all the time. Probably too much. Like, I'm on Instagram. It's Kennedy. I think it's like, Kennedy Ryan one. Kennedy Ryan. I'm on Tik Tok. I'm on. I'm on threads.

[Kale]

You know, they can find any of your book signings and tour dates on to your socials.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Yeah, because if you go to my socials, I have a. My link, you know, is in my. My bio has everything.

[Kale]

Okay, perfect. And you can get. Can't get enough. Anywhere. You can buy books anywhere you buy books.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Anywhere you buy books.

[Kale]

Thank you so much.

[Kennedy Ryan]

Thank you so much, Sam. Foreign.

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[Adam Rippon]

Hi, I'm Adam Rippon, and this is Intrusive Thoughts, the podcast where I finally say the stuff out loud that's been living rent free in my head for years. From dumb decisions to awkward moments I probably should have kept to myself. Nothing's off limits. Yes, I'm talking about the time I lost my phone mid flight and still haven't truly emotionally recovered from that. There might be too many sound effects. I've been told to chill. Will I? Unclear. But if you've ever laid awake at night cringing at something you said five years ago. Congratulations. You found your people. Intrusive Thoughts with Adam Rippon is available now wherever you get your podcasts.