Confessions of a Diagnosed Narcissist with Lee Hammock

Summary

Barely Famous Podcast – “Confessions of a Diagnosed Narcissist with Lee Hammock”

Host: Kail Lowry
Guest: Lee Hammock (a.k.a. Mental Healness)
Date: April 10, 2026

Episode Overview

In this thought-provoking and candid episode, host Kail Lowry sits down with Lee Hammock, a diagnosed narcissist, TikTok creator, and outspoken mental health advocate. Together, they dive deep into what it means to live with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), challenge myths and misunderstandings about narcissism, and explore how therapy, self-awareness, and family dynamics play into healing and accountability. Lee’s openness humanizes the struggles behind the label, offering both professionals and those affected by narcissists new understanding and hope.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Lee Hammock’s Diagnosis and Early Experiences with Narcissism

• Diagnosed with NPD in 2018 after years of confusion around his behaviors and their impact.
• His introduction to narcissism came not from clinical resources, but from his wife labeling him:

  "My wife called me a narcissist. She was like, ‘It’s so damn hard living with a narcissist.’” (01:19, Lee)

• An emotional “angry Googling” session led him to self-recognition:

  “Wait, this kind of makes sense for my life. I was like, damn, this might be it.” (01:54, Lee)

• Felt a mixture of “awakening” and pain admitting his diagnosis, but it provided long-needed answers.

2. Therapy Journey & Truth-Telling

• Entered therapy in 2017, but for the first two years withheld key truths out of shame and self-protection:

  “I’m sharing the truth, but I’m kind of leaving things out… Just, like, lying by omission.” (06:19, Lee)

• Major progress began only after his wife left him again in 2020, spurring honest self-examination.
• Developed rituals (even taking a shot before sessions) to help combat anxiety about self-disclosure.
• On the transformative power of telling the truth:

  “Now we can really do the work now. The actual positive stuff can happen now because you’re being open, honest.” (11:01, Lee’s therapist via Lee)

• Kail asks about the shame and relief in coming clean:

  "Did that hurt for you to admit that?" (02:12, Kail)

3. How Narcissism Manifests—Family, Upbringing & Personalities

• Lee shares insights on the roots of narcissism:

  “You can develop narcissism based on neglect… But you can also become an empath or have borderline personality disorder from the same environment.” (21:29, Lee)

• Growing up with a twin, his brother didn’t develop narcissism:

  “I have a twin brother, right? He’s not a narcissist.” (21:47, Lee)

• Lee only truly developed a sense of self at around 8 or 9 years old, having modeled his brother before then.

4. Narcissistic Relationships: Marriage, Parenting, and Regrets

• Narcissism affected his ability to bond with family:

  “My oldest son… got the brunt of that for his first eight, nine years of life… My daughter doesn't know none of that.” (15:22, Lee)

• On marriage and vulnerability:

  “I do love my wife, I do love my kids, but I always want to fit in… Like, how do I not look like an alien?” (30:09, Lee)

• Admits his initial drive for “normal life” was about societal expectations, not purely emotional connection.
• Explains how misperceptions (his wife doubting he wanted to marry her) led to rage and defensiveness rather than comfort.

5. Types of Narcissists and Misconceptions

• Kail presses for clarity about the term “narcissist” and public misunderstanding:

  “I always thought a narcissist doesn’t know that they’re a narcissist… Is that true?” (19:16, Kail)

• Lee sharpens the difference between malignant narcissists (who are calculated, almost psychopathic) and those more driven by survival mechanisms.
• “Most narcissists know they’re being manipulative. I don’t think they know why.” (18:54, Lee)

6. Family of Origin, Generational Trauma, and Mental Health

• Lee recounts harrowing family history, linking it to his diagnosis (e.g., his father’s trauma from witnessing his own father’s suicide).
• Discusses the psychological evaluation process and genetic/epigenetic aspects.
• Describes how family patterns shaped his own emotional shutdowns and coping strategies.

7. Narcissistic Abuse and the Cycle of Manipulation

• Explains “love bombing” and “devaluation” as classic patterns:

  “It starts with love bombing… Then once they love bombing ends, they start devaluing you.” (46:06, Lee)

• Breadcrumbing and intermittent reinforcement keep partners hooked, craving earlier affection.
• Lee candidly admits that when his wife left, his mind immediately shifted to “how do I manipulate her to come back.”

8. Healing, Recovery, and Self-Work

• The importance of forgiving oneself and truly committing to internal change, not just external behaviors for others’ approval.
• Describes “mirror talk” and his unique process for self-forgiveness:

  “I started literally getting very specific with my apologies to myself… and I started crying. And I came out the bathroom, I was just like, I actually feel better.” (16:12–18:22, Lee)

• Lee details how his healing must be about his own growth, not for accolades or even to keep people in his life.

9. Narcissism’s Prevalence and Stigma

• Disputes the idea that narcissism affects only 1% of the population; some researchers estimate 15–20%.
• Notes that most narcissists are not diagnosed (partly because denial is a symptom).

10. Narcissism vs. Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)

• Kail questions if she may also have narcissism; Lee instead identifies more with BPD traits.

  “Could you be more lean towards Borderline? Yeah… you have empathy if you care for your kids. I feel like you would die for your kids, right? Narcissists wouldn’t do that unless they were…” (59:29, Lee)

• Lee highlights key differences in empathy, attachment, and self-perception between the disorders.

11. Religion, Manipulation, and Self-Presentation

• Lee openly rails against narcissists who use religion for image rehabilitation:

  “If I would, I could cheat on my wife, beat her… and I was just like, you know what? God told me that I needed to change my life. And people would fall for it.” (83:04, Lee)

• They criticize performative religious personas and the public’s tendency to instantly forgive such dramatic conversions.

12. Empathy, Healing Others, and Social Media

• Distinguishes between emotional and cognitive empathy:

  “I might not connect to it, but I get it. Right. And because I get it, I can empathize with you.” (88:12, Lee)

• Kail:

  “I cry so much, my boyfriend doesn’t know what to do with me.” (88:19, Kail)

• Lee’s ability to maintain cognitive empathy allows him to help others without becoming overwhelmed.
• On social media, Lee acknowledges it can feed ego, but for him, it’s also an ongoing form of accountability and public service.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Lee’s self-discovery:

  “Wait, this kind of makes sense for my life. I was like, damn, this might be it.” (01:54)

• On telling the full truth in therapy:

  “The first two and a half years… I’m sharing the truth, but I’m kind of leaving things out, you know, because I don’t want to fully be exposed or embarrassed.” (06:19)

• On inheriting trauma:

  “I didn’t cry for so long. It was crazy.” (35:54)

• On advice to others:

  “If you override your own intuition, you end up in toxicity.” (72:13)

• On craving validation and performance in relationships:

  “If it only benefits you, maybe it’s not the best decision.” (70:42)

• On the hardest part of growth:

  “It feels like physical pain… Somebody stabbing me.” [on apologizing/accountability] (100:09)

• Kail on BPD:

  “Sometimes I think I have BPD also.” (57:53)

• On the misuse of religion:

  “If you want to pretend to be a good person, all you had to do is put Christian in your bio. It really is easy. That’s the easiest way to divert attention from yourself is to just become religious.” (84:08)

• On empathy:

  “I get it. I got you. Come here. … I can empathize with you at the same time. Like, that really does suck that you went through that experience.” (90:04)

• On working with survivors:

  “I do get joy out of helping people like that… Kind of like a healing tree. I helped you, and now you can help other people too.” (106:14)

---

Timestamps for Crucial Segments

• Lee’s diagnosis and “angry Googling” – 01:19–02:12
• Starting therapy & telling the truth – 06:19–11:01
• Wife leaving & mirror apology ritual – 16:12–18:22
• Narcissism vs. other personalities in the same family – 21:29–24:21
• How narcissism affects marriages and defensiveness – 30:09–33:09
• Cycle of narcissistic abuse explained – 46:06–47:36
• Healed vs. unhealed Lee in parenting – 15:22–15:44, 75:51–77:25
• Lee analyzes Kail for narcissism/BPD – 57:53–62:36
• Religion as manipulation & why it works – 83:01–85:07
• Empathy, social media, and helping others – 88:12–90:04, 106:14
• Accountability and the pain of apology – 100:02–103:46

---

Additional Highlights & Dynamics

• Lee’s humility and humor (“If I wasn’t Black, I’d be turning red.” 85:16) balance the heavy subject matter.
• Kail’s transparency about her own trauma prompts candid discussion about generational cycles.
• The conversation is peppered with real-life examples, from smashed canvases and twin rivalries to moments of “blackout” and blame—all illustrating the complex human reality of narcissism.
• Practical advice is offered for recognizing red flags in partners, managing co-parenting with narcissists, and helping children develop healthy identities.
• The impact of stigma—both in mental health and cultural environments (especially among men and in the Black community)—is critically addressed.

---

Where to Find Lee Hammock

• Social Media: Mental Healness (TikTok, Instagram—with 3 S’s)
• Coaching/Resources: mentalhealness.net

---

Summary

This episode stands out for its raw honesty, detailed breakdown of narcissistic behavior, and unique perspective from someone working for change from the inside out. Lee demonstrates both vulnerability and accountability, showing that while narcissism is indeed a “personality disorder,” it’s not a sentence to inflict pain. Both he and Kail highlight the critical importance of therapy, self-awareness, and honest reflection—for narcissists and those affected by them alike.

Anyone struggling with narcissism in themselves or their relationships will find clarity, practical insights, and a surprising measure of hope in this memorable conversation.

Transcript

[A]

Okay, guys, we're back. You asked for it. And we're delivering. Killer is going on tour. We're super excited for the fatherless behavior tour. 23 cities, three countries, all in one summer. And you guys can check out tour dates and see if we're coming to a city near you on killlowry.com and if you want early access to information and announcements, head over to Patreon because you might get it before everyone else. Welcome to the show. Things are going to get weird. It's your fave villain, Kayla, and you're listening to Barely Famous. Welcome back to another episode of Barely Famous podcast. Today I'm sitting with Lee Hammock. You may have seen him pop up on your Tick Tock feed, maybe Instagram. And he is a diagnosed narcissist. And I am super fascinated by this. So welcome to the show up.

[B]

Thanks for having me on.

[A]

Yeah, of course. Okay, so first I want to say I've been following you for absolutely so long, probably years. And so you're a diagnosed narcissist. When did you get diagnosed?

[B]

In 2018. I've been in therapy since 2017 though, so I've been in therapy since. For about nine years, but I got diagnosed in, like, early 2018.

[A]

Did you know what narcissism was when you were diagnosed?

[B]

The only. The only kind of, like, welcoming to narcissism I had had was, you know, just growing up, you hear narcissist, you think like, egotistical. You think like self, like, self confident person. You don't think, like, personality disorder, mental illness. But, like, was like 2017, my wife called me a narcissist. She was like, it's so damn hard living with a narcissist. I was like, you're a narcissist. Like, it take me five minutes to get ready. It takes you hours to get ready. You worry about how you look, blah, blah, blah, and. And she ended up, like, kind of leaving for a few days. And while she was gone, I was what I refer to as angry Googling. I got on Google and I was super angry. I was like, what is this narcissist? Why she called me this? And I was like, wait, this kind of makes sense for my life. I was like, damn, this might be it. And I remember texting her and I was like, you know what? You're right. I am a narcissist.

[A]

Did that hurt for you to admit that?

[B]

For me, it's kind of like, in between, right? Because, like, at first it's. It's kind of like, you're confused about it and you don't want to necessarily anything to be wrong with you. But it. It got to the point where I was like, like one of my friends, like infant sons had passed away, right? And I was kind of like in this limbo of life, I was like, I haven't accomplished anything. I'm failing at life. And I was like, what the hell is wrong with me? Like, why am I thinking this? Like, he just passed away and it's just kind of like perfect storm stuff. She called me a narcissist. I happened to look it up and it made sense to why I felt the way that I felt. So I was like, it kind of gave me a lot of answers to the questions I've been asking myself for a very, very long time. So it kind of was like an awakening more than anything.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know?

[A]

And so is that what propelled you to go into therapy?

[B]

Yeah, eventually I went to therapy. Like, at first, like, I was like, hey, my narcissist, I'm gonna work on it. But you Google narcissist and you Google like, what's the cure for narcissism?

[A]

There's not.

[B]

There's no cure. Yeah, it's like pretty much Google probably pretty much says, like, go. It says, go to therapy. I was like, okay, I don't know how to get a therapist or whatever. I'm like 32 at. I don't know how to go to therapy. I don't know how to. So I joined some like, diagnosed self aware narcissist Facebook groups and they helped me at first, but then like, you don't really get better in there. You see people who understand where you're coming from, but that doesn't necessarily help because they're just kind of like enabling you. They're just like, well, you're a narcissist. You're supposed to do this. This is how you're built. This is how you're functioning. So I was like, you know what? My wife's like, what happened to you going to therapy? So I was like, hey, guys in the group. And I don't really know how do I go to therapy? And they just told me to get on Psychology Today dot com. And I found my therapist and I remember emailing her, hey, look, I'm 99.5% certain that I'm a narcissist. But, you know, I had 0.5. And since I became aware of it, it's kind of like destroying my internal mindset. It's kind of just Destroying my life. But she was. She was cool. She was like, hey, come on in. So I. I went to therapy. You know, most therapists, like, if you think you're narcissist, you're not.

[A]

What was that like? Because that's kind of against the norm.

[B]

So I didn't know what narcissist was. I messaged her. I was just like, I think I'm. I'm pretty sure I have this personality disorder. And she was like, come on in. She's like, hey, fill out the paperwork. We'll set up an appointment and you can come on in. And I remember, like, my very first therapy appointment. I was just like, sitting there in the waiting room. I was like, what the hell am I doing here? You know, I'm. I'm grown. I'm an adult. I got kids and there's like, kids sitting in there. Like a 15 year old sitting beside me. I was like, you know, they. They asked him to come back. He just. He, like, had his little wheelies on. He, like, wheeled to the back.

[A]

I was like, you're like, should I be here?

[B]

Yeah, that's why, literally what I said, should I be here? But I listened to a lot of. I listen to a lot of audiobooks, right? And one of the audiobooks had a poem that I really love, and I had that poem as my screensaver, and the poem was on the wall. So I'm like, I'm supposed to be here. You know, I'm supposed to be here. And then when I finally went back and talked to her, and she was like, yeah, like, you could be a narcissist. You might not be, but let's work, like, either way, you're here for a reason. Let's put the work in. Let's see what we can get.

[A]

And was it possible for you to have narcissistic traits but not be a full blown narcissist?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Okay. Because I'm wondering if maybe that's what I have. I don't know. And so, you know, you start this therapy journey is, did you connect with your therapist right away and you've stayed with her ever since, or did you kind of like, you were like, maybe this isn't the right fit? Or what was your, like, therapy journey like?

[B]

So I've had the same therapist the whole time.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Yeah. For entire nine years. And we're like the exact same age.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And she's like a woman too. Like, she's kind of like. She kind of looks like my wife. So I think there's Some, like, some transference there. So I, I. I intentionally chose a woman therapist because I felt like my. I felt like my. My biggest problem was connecting to my emotions. And, you know, like, social media and stuff teaches you, like, women are more in tune with their emotions. I was like, let me pick a woman. Maybe she can. Maybe she can help me deal with my wife. I'm just like. And we're the same age, born the same year, so we kind of, like, honestly, we kind of grew up together.

[A]

Right?

[B]

So it's just like when I, like, the first, I think I entered therapy October 2017. So the first two and a half years of therapy, I think were, you know, just, I'm sharing the truth, but I'm kind of leaving things out, you know, because I don't want to fully be exposed or fully be embarrassed of what's going on in my life. I'm just like. I don't want to seem like the enemy, but I also want help. So I'm just. Just, like, lying by omission, you know? Okay, I'm telling the truth, but it's like, hey, she yelled at me, but I don't tell the reason why she yelled at me.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

Right. So I'm lying by omission. So the first two and a half years, I felt I was good, but in 2020, my wife ended up leaving me again. Right? And, like, right when Covid started, you know, we had got, like, a stay at home order in North Carolina. And look, she did not stay at home. She didn't stay at home? No, no. I dropped my oldest son off, and I came back. I was like, five minutes from the house. I got a text message from her, I won't be here when you get back. And I was like, wait, what? I'm like, why? Why? And I was just. I was like, I knew it. Because, like, when, you know, you start hearing the inklings about COVID I started panicking. My mind started going crazy. I'm like, we're all gonna die. So I'm like, I stopped going to therapy. So I missed, like, three, four months of therapy. When I go, don't go to therapy, I kind of. It's easy to revert to my old behaviors, right? Cause I'm at the time, I'm like, this is 2020. So I'm like, 34. Right. Is this easier to revert back to the old me? It's just easy to do that. And I was doing it, and I just, like, remember right before I took my oldest son back to his mom's house. I was looking at my wife. I was like, she needs a hug right now. And I was like, walking out the door, I was like, I'm gonna give her a hug. And something in me is like, man, she don't need a hook. And I left. And I came five minutes from house, and she was gone. I was like. And I came home and she was gone. And, like, the house is empty. I'm like, how? I'm like, how the hell does she move out? Well, I'm like, because women here, women

[A]

stay until they don't. Women stay through everything until one day it just. We leave. We have a plan.

[B]

Yeah, she definitely had a plan. Because, like. And what I realized now, while looking back, she was already moving stuff out weeks before she was donating stuff, like Goodwill, something you didn't notice. I wasn't paying attention. I was just, like, living my own life. And I was just like. So when I came home and so much was gone, I was like, wait. And I was just sitting. I was like, I'm not paying attention to nobody but me. I was like, this is stupid. So I literally, you know, I reached out. Back out. Reached back out to my therapist and, like, set up appointment that week. And she. I hadn't talked to in a few months. And she's like, so, what's new with you? I was like, well, my wife left. You know, the first thing out of my voice. What? She's like, what did you do? I was like, wait, me? What? Why?

[A]

I'm not leaving for no reason.

[B]

She's like. I was like, why I gotta be me? She's like, because I know when you don't talk to me, because we've been talking for two and a half years, it's easy to go back to how you were before. I was like, ah. I was like, well, I was probably emotionally neglectful doing. Just being. Just panicking because of COVID And I just, like, kind of logged out mentally and emotionally. And I remember asking my therapist, I was like, how do. Well, how do I get her back? How do I get her to come back home? And my therapist, like, this is why I love my therapist. Because she was, like, legit. She was. She straight up. She like, you can't. I was like, why do I need to talk to you then? But, you know, she like, let me rephrase that. You probably can get her back because y' all have kids together. You. You. You're a good talker. You. You know, you can make her laugh. You do all this other stuff. So you can probably get her back, but when you get her back and you. She realizes you haven't changed, she'll leave again. And next time it would be permanent. And I was just like, okay. Damn it. So I gotta commit to making serious changes. So when I got back into therapy, this is over. Virtual around. I'm like, because it's virtual. I'm sitting in my shed at home. I'm like, I'm gonna just be 100 honest with her. So I'm sitting there, I get chill bump. I used to take. Like, I'd be so nervous before therapy. I just had to take a shot before therapy, I just had to take.

[A]

Was that also a problem, though?

[B]

No, I wouldn't act. I wouldn't act.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It could become problematic if I overdid it because. Of course. But, like, I used to have to like to take a shot or two, just kind of bring my anxiety down a little bit just so I could just be open and honest so I wouldn't hold anything back because, like, I would literally get physical reality. I get chill bumps. I'm be sweating. I'm like, what the hell is wrong with me? I'll take a couple shots. And it allowed me to be more open and honest with her. And I remember the first time I told my therapist, I was like, this is really what my wife left. I was neglectful. I wouldn't. You know, I've been lying about to you about this for years. And she's like, now we can really do the work now. You can make changes now. The actual positive stuff can happen now because you're being open, honest. And she knew I was being honest too, because I don't. We've been talking for years. So she knew I was the difference

[A]

between lying by omission and then telling the truth. Okay, so let's talk about spring reset and fewer pieces, better materials, so that we're able to solidify what we have in our closets and have a true capsule wardrobe. I just placed my most recent order with Quinn's, and I'm obsessed with the pieces I got. I got like, an olive green crossbody bag, which I love. I got a gold ring and some sunglasses, and I absolutely love everything I got. So while I've been doing a little spring reset with my closet lately, I'm really focusing on quality over quantity. I want a nice capsule wardrobe that I can build from scratch, and I want them made with, well, versatile pieces and be able to mix and match kind of as I go. Quince makes beautiful everyday day pieces Using premium materials like 100 European linen, organic cotton and super soft denim with styles starting around $50. Their spring pieces are lightweight, breathable and effortless. The kinds of things that you throw on and instantly look put together, which is something that I really strive for these days. Sometimes I don't have my hair done and I need the two thirds rule, which is like if my hair is not done, I need my outfit put together and my makeup on or if my makeup is not on, I need to do my hair and definitely look put together for my outfit. And so Quint makes that possible for me. And that same focus on materials carries over to their accessories as well. So I was just talking about the jewelry, the bag, the sunglasses. They have leather bags that are made from 100% handwoven Italian leather. And honestly they look way more expensive than they are. And Quint works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middleman. So you're paying for quality and not the brand markup, which is amazing. You guys can refresh your spring wardrobe with quint. Go to quint.com famous for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. Go to q u I n c-e.com famous for free shipping and 350 day returns. Quince.com famous

[B]

we've been the trusted experts since 1960 because nobody knows tires better than we do. And with over 90 tire brands, we have an abundance of options in stock for your vehicle. Buy and Drive [e-mail] Let's get you taken care of.

[A]

You know what I realized the hardest part about building a website is? Isn't making it look good. It's getting what's in my head onto the page. But I've been playing with the new WIX Harmony editor and I'm impressed. You can literally just tell it what you want. Or if you're picky like me, jump in and move things around yourself. The nice part is you can hop between AI and hands on editing so you end up with a site that

[B]

actually looks the way you pictured it.

[A]

Try it out for [e-mail] Harmony what would you do if your online store converted 36% more shoppers? You could take 36% more vacation.

[B]

Another pina colada? Yes, please.

[A]

Open a new retail location with 36% more square feet.

[B]

Fantastic.

[A]

Hire 36% more help.

[B]

You're hired and you're hired. Shopify has the world's best converting checkout

[A]

up to 36% better than other e commerce platforms. What you do with those extra sales

[B]

is up to you.

[A]

Switch to Shopify [e-mail] setup and get a $1 trial. Shopify.com

[B]

the things that I knew I needed to be honest about, like when something crossed my mind and I wanted to say it and I would have that physical reaction, I started getting chill bumps, my hairs and start standing up and I was like sweating. I was like, I need to say this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because if you hold it in, that's when it kind of starts to eat away at you from the inside out.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Like, and it'll come out and it's kind of like you, you put a beautiful butterfly in a bottle, it's gonna fly. It's gonna fly around for a little while, but sooner or later it's gonna die because it's been starved, it hasn't been let out the bottle like. So I'm like, you have to let it out. Any type of emotions you stifle, even the good ones, if you don't find a healthy way to let them out, they're going to die and they're going to come out as rage, they're going to come out as anger, they're going to come out as resentment or something like that. So that was a big thing for me, is to find ways to just release my emotions in a healthy way. So I wasn't like attacking my partner, attacking my kids and stuff like that. Because that's, you know, a lot of people ask me, like, what's your biggest regret about therapy before therapy and because I, you know, I'm 40 now, but my oldest son is 17. I've been in therapy for nine years. So he got the first eight years of his life. He got the, the untherapy. I don't even know the word, like

[A]

the unhealed version of you.

[B]

Yeah, the unhealed version of me. He got the brunt of that for his first eight, nine years of life. You know, I have a nine year old son too. He's kind of grown up with me through my therapy journey. He's kind of seen the rage and anger and stuff like that progressively through the years till I really started getting serious. But I have a five year old daughter and like, she don't know none of that, you know?

[A]

Right. Like, she just has a completely different version.

[B]

She don't know none of that. Like, like, you know, your dad, my wife, sometimes she gets angry. She like, my daughter be doing something like I'm. Get your dad to yell at you.

[A]

Like, I don't do that anymore.

[B]

Why I gotta yeah, you know, like me.

[A]

Why do you think that at the time that your wife left you for the second time, that you decided to go tell the truth to your therapist instead of sort of flipping the script and kind of putting the blame on your wife?

[B]

Because, like, I think the biggest thing about that was, like, when I went to therapy and I this. It's kind of like therapy part two, right? Because the first two and a half years I was in therapy, but I wasn't being 100% honest. So therapy part two was me. Like, she told me, she's like, if you really want to put the work in, first of all, you have to be 100 honest. But you also have to find a way to forgive yourself. And I was just like, oh, how do you. How do you do that? Right? How do you forgive yourself for all the stuff you've been doing for years, even before. Even before this relationship, for years before this? How do you forgive yourself for that? It's just like, that's a journey you got to take on your own. I'm like, okay, so I'm sitting. I'm. I'm sitting in the bathroom, right? And I. It's gonna sound like some scary movie paranormal stuff. I swear. I was walking by the mirror out the bathroom, and I swear, like, my reflection kind of looked at me. You know how you see the scary movies where your reflection is dancing in the background? You're like, I looked at my reflection. I'm like, wait, did you just move? So I'm sitting in the bathroom. I'm just like. I'm staring at myself in the mirror, like. And I just start saying, I'm sorry. You know, I say, I'm sorry, and then I say, I forgive you. I'm not sorry. Getting very specific with it because, you know, those blanket apologies don't really mean anything. I'm sorry for everything that doesn't have. Hold any weight. What are you sorry for? So I started literally getting very specific with my apologies to myself, you know, and kind of had to start with childhood, you know, you had to kind of work through that stuff. I'm sorry I wasn't able to protect myself from the things that might have happened to me in childhood. I forgive you. You know, And I was. I was in the bathroom, like, 30, 45 minutes, hour, like, literally saying that type of stuff. And I started crying. And I came out the bathroom. I was just like, I actually feel better, you know, So I called. I. I knew what my wife had went. And she went to her friend's house right And I was just like. I called her friend. I was like, okay, I'm not the last person you want to hear from, but what percentage chance do you think I have of getting her to come back home? And she was like, well, I can't say. Zero. So she was. I'd probably say about 1%. And I was like, damn.

[A]

Oh, so it was that bad?

[B]

It was that bad? Yeah. I was like, damn, 1%. So I'm from the dumb and dumber generation. So I remember Jim Carrey in my head. So you saying there's a chance, like, okay, cool. That's all I need. So I'm starting thinking of ways to. Of course, my mind immediately shifts to how do I manipulate her to come back? So we have really, like, that is

[A]

how your brain works.

[B]

Literally. It goes to manipulation. It goes to. It's like the easy. It goes to the easy way first.

[A]

But hold on, because I have questions about that. Do narcissists know that they're being manipulative?

[B]

So I know. I think most narcissists know that they're being manipulative. I don't think they know why. You know, I think there's like a. If you go to the back of your mind, there's kind of like, you know, you've seen the wizard of Oz, the old wizard of Oz movie. There's kind of like the wizard behind the curtain you don't ever see.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, so you're acting. You're acting. You're doing these behaviors, but you don't know why you're doing them.

[A]

I feel like narcissism. Narcissist, narcissist. And narcissism has become sort of like a buzzword over the last 10 years. And so I think that some of the things that we read online or that we hear online are not always necessarily true. And so with that being said, you hear narcissism over and over and over and over again. I always thought that, like, a narcissist doesn't know that they're a narcissist. A narcissist doesn't know they manipulate. A narcissist kind of has a skewed perspective of reality, and they do not realize that that is. I just thought that they didn't know. So for clarity, there are different types of narcissism.

[B]

Yeah, so there are different types of narcissists. Yeah, of course. But, like, I'm not a malignant narcissist.

[A]

But what is a malignant narcissist?

[B]

It's kind of like teetering on the line of being a psychopath, right? It's got the fuck. It's almost the same thing. Pretty much the same thing, right? It really is almost the same thing. So malignant, malignant narcissists are active in their manipulation. They know exactly what they're doing and they have a goal set to be.

[A]

Brian Coburger.

[B]

He's a psychopath. He's probably most like. Sociopath. Psychopath. Yeah, he's. He had like. When I, like just me talking to my therapist, she's like, malignant narcissist psychopath sociopath scheme.

[A]

So they know what they're doing and they're intentional with it.

[B]

They're scheming. Yeah, you're a regular run of the mill narcissist. They're being manipulative, but it's kind of like out of survival.

[A]

So does that develop or are you born like that?

[B]

It could be both ways because I think sociopaths and psychopaths, one is born, one is created, but they both pretty much had the same traits, right? So you can be born with it. So for me, for instance, I don't have necessarily my mom, you know, she was. She was a single mom, but my dad was present, you know, but he was like emotionally neglectful.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

He just was not around. He was around, but he was also not around at the same time because he would not validate you. He wouldn't talk to you. He was more focused about having kids and getting women and stuff like that and just like not paying attention.

[A]

So do you think that by neglect you can sort of develop narcissism because you are in charge of yourself? You're looking out for yourself, you're being neglected. Your survival is. You can only rely on you. And so by that you be. You develop narcissism.

[B]

So you can develop narcissism based on sometimes from that right there. But you also go. You can go a few different ways. Like you can become a narcissist, you become a. What people refer to as an empath. You can get like, you know, one of your borderline personality disorder, bpd. There's a few different ways you can go because, like, I have a twin brother, right? He's not a narcissist.

[A]

I did not know that you were a twin. And your twin is not a narcissist.

[B]

He's not a narcissist. No.

[A]

Okay. I don't know which direction to go here because I don't want to miss anything. So I know we were talking about hold that thought about your therapist, but now you're a twin who does not have narcissism.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What was his reaction? First of all, what were the differences? Looking back in hindsight, what were the differences growing up with a twin and you now knowing that you're a narcissist?

[B]

So from growing up, I've always kind of known I was different. Right. I feel like I 8 or 9 years old. So I had kind of had my awakening. Kind of like, it's kind of like when I woke up to who I was, to have my own personality, you know, I don't remember. I don't have a lot of memories before eight, nine years old. Right. And it's kind of like I woke up on my, like, 8th or 9th birthday, so I don't have a lot of memories before that. I remember, like, blowing all the candles on a cake and kind of like, I remember, like, doing it. I remember waking up. I was like, I know my brother. I know my mom. I know my aunt. I know everybody who's in this house for my birthday party. But, like, I don't know who I am. I was like, who the hell am I? You know? So I'm like, I had to model my brother for so long because he was just like, he's just normal, right? He's just him. I just like.

[A]

But you knew that from a small age.

[B]

I knew that from a very young age from, like, 8, 9 years old. I was like, I knew I just didn't fit in. I knew I didn't feel right. Right. But, like, my brother was cool. I'm like, I have a brother. I can just act like him. So he. I would just act like him because

[A]

he would basically mimic his personality.

[B]

Yeah. 100%. Like. And my mom. I think my mom knew that. Who used to dress like. My mom was just like, I got twin bros. I can dress him like. Like. So she used to dress as, like. But I think she knew that because when she put us in school, like, she wanted me to kind of go on my own, so she made sure that she tell the teachers, like, to not put us in the same class. So from a very young age, I never, like. And this is me just realizing this in therapy from a few years ago. I never had a class with my brother, like, through. All through school.

[A]

Do you think that helped you or hurt you or. It could go both ways?

[B]

I never asked that question before. Honestly, I feel like. Because it's just school, I feel like we were at home. We were still together at home. You Know, we lived. Even when we became adults, we lived together for a while. We went our separate ways and whatnot. So I feel like it had its advantages and its disadvantages.

[A]

Did he notice that you felt different, or did he notice you were different? I don't.

[B]

When I told my brother I was a diagnosed narcissist, he didn't. He's like, oh, they don't care. Like, they don't. Because they've been dealing with me for years. Like, okay, okay. Yeah. Literally, it's like, all right, okay, okay. You know, literally, that was his mind. That was his mentality. He's like, okay, yeah. He's like, yeah.

[A]

What do you want me to do with that?

[B]

All right, man. Mama's birthday next week. Like, this. They don't care because, like, it doesn't. Because I'm still their brother. It doesn't change how they view me because I'm not, like, doing anything crazy to them, right? I'm not just like, hey, bro, let me see some money for drugs. I'm not doing anything like that, right? I'm like, it's just like, I just kind of been on my own. I just. Like, he's a loner sometimes. He can be fun. He's just funny, but he just grew up on his own. Like, it's kind of like that right there.

[A]

If you're buying medications like me, I have seven kids. Someone's always sick. Someone always needs something. I have adhd, so I'm getting meds at the pharmacy regularly. This is where super plus Rx comes in. They have the sticker shock. We've all been to the pharmacy. At the counter, when the pharmacist has a number and your jaw hits the floor and you're wondering where the heck you're going to find that money. Well, super plus Rx is the undo button for that high price tag because they have an 85% rule, which means that you can save up to 85% on your prescriptions. It's the exact same medication you've always taken, but it's a price that actually makes sense to us. And insurance is not a barrier. So whether you're uninsured, underinsured, or you have a high deductible, this works. Sometimes the super plus Rx price is even lower than a standard insurance copay, which is amazing. And they have total transparency, so there's no fine print, no hidden fees at the counter, and no gotchas. You literally search for the drug, see the price, and that's what you pay. And the super plus advantage. This isn't just a one off coupon. It's part of a membership designed to put money back in your pocket to put towards gas or travel, or most importantly your health. And I definitely suggest everyone check it out so you can stop overpaying for your prescriptions. Go to super.com RX right now to see how much you can save. Finding the one can feel impossible and in today's world, it's even harder. False profiles, Inaccurate pictures, incompatibilities Ghosting on dates. Is this sounding familiar? But if you're ready to make the move to a new place, it doesn't have to feel like dating. All it takes is a simple search on apartments.com to find your perfect match. Whether you're looking for a three bedroom condo downtown, a two bedroom duplex in a quiet neighborhood, a cozy studio in a walkable city, or even a single family home in a culdesac, you can find a place that checks all the right boxes. So whichever stage of life you're in, settle down in your perfect home by using apartments.com no more swiping or awkward first dates. Make it easier to get a place that gets you visit apartments.com the place to find.

[B]

So I don't this it has both. It has its advantages and disadvantages. I think my mom just saw that I was like acting too much like him and she was like so she told the teachers because I think about it, I was like, you know what, you don't think about this stuff until you become an adult. I was like, I never had a class with my brother. I had classes with all these other people. Like we were in the same grade literally from kindergarten with Ms. King's class. That's the last time I remember my brother been in my class. Like first through we went to different colleges.

[A]

Oh, you did?

[B]

Yeah, it's crazy. It's just like we never had a class together because like never could help each other with the homework. It's like because we had different teachers. Like the teach. We have the same teachers but different periods.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Like oh, I got your brother second period. Like oh really? Oh okay. You know and it was kind of crazy. I didn't realize that until literally until I was an adult. And like because you don't be thinking about it because it's like your life, you think the teachers are doing it right. You're like, oh, teachers are just separated us because we were just fun together or what? I don't know. But like my mama did it but you know, I think she in all honesty, I think you really. If I have to just give an honest answer, I would just say it more. I think it more helped me because he helped me develop my own personality. So I wasn't as attached to him.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because like, imagine being attached to him through. All through school, all through college, and then he's like, I'm going to move to Charlotte. I'm like, what? I go to school in Greensboro. I can't go two hours away. You know, that would have been traumatic. So I think it helped have distance between us as adults, you know, now

[A]

that you say that, I feel like you might have said that on a tick tock before.

[B]

I probably said on tick that before because I said in passing. Because he's not like social media stuff like that. Sure. He just like kind of. He's a teacher, you know, he. I guess his kids think he's cool when he's on social media stuff, like. But like, he's a teacher, so he's cool. And I used to always be like, you know, I'm. I have this personality disorder, so I'm always like, teaching isn't enough. Like, why, why do you only want to be a teacher?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, that's crazy. Like, you can just do this, go invest, you know, I'm just like losing in my mind. Right. Because he wants to be a teacher. And I understand it now. I get it. It makes him happy. And I just like, now I look back at it and I'm like, oh, I was just jealous because he could be happy doing what he wanted to do.

[A]

Is it harder for a narcissist to be happy?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Can narcissists be happy?

[B]

I feel like there's a difference between happiness and joy. Contentment. Right. You can have moments of happiness, but joy is what escapes you. You know, you can be happy in the moment. Like, oh, God, I love this. This makes me happy. But then it goes away.

[A]

Like, it's flighty.

[B]

Yeah. It's like. It's like you're chasing it.

[A]

Has that been. Has it been that way for you your whole life or only since you sort of realized and were diagnosed as a narcissist?

[B]

It's still the way now.

[A]

It's still that way.

[B]

It's the way now. Yeah, it just is.

[A]

So when it comes to, like, really, really big decisions in your life, like getting married, knowing now that you're a narcissist, how do you decide that you want to marry somebody? How do you decide that you want to have a child? How do you stay? Like, because how do you develop deep connections with your wife or your children? Being a narcissist?

[B]

So. So I feel like I do. I do love my wife. I do love my kids. But I think from a very young age, because I wanted to fit in. And I just think that that's how you. Your mind works. Like, how do I fit in? How do I not just be this outlier? How do I not look like an alien? That I feel like, how do I not look, like, how do I not look like, to the outside world, like an alien? Like, I feel internally, how do I do that? Oh, you get married, you have kids, you get a good job, you do this type of stuff right here. You're kind of low key, but you're not. At the same time, you're like, oh, that's a very normal boy right there. He got a wife and kids. You know, that's how your mind works. So I love my wife, but I was. I always want to be married for a very young age. I remember, like. Like when my brother wasn't around, like, he would be doing something different. I remember, like, sounds silly, but I remember ordering like a. A secret subscription, like Cosmo magazine, and I used to read Cosmo.

[A]

You ordered Cosmo?

[B]

Yeah, I had a Cosmos subscription. Yeah, I used to have. I'd be reading, like, celebrities just like us. And I was just like, how do you fit in? Oh, you have to be funny. You have to do this. I'm like, okay, I can do that. I can do all of that, you know? So I remember sneaking and reading Cosmo in the bathroom and stuff like that. Why are you in the bathroom four hours? Oh, that's just like something was hurting or whatever, Right? But I mean, they're reading Cosmo, trying to assimilate into what real people want to do, how real people experience happiness. Because I feel like for so long as a. As a kid growing up, that escaped me. So getting married, having kids, that's something that, you know, I feel like you needed to do to be right, normal. Because you wouldn't be like, you're 40 with no kids. Something's wrong with you. You don't want to hear that, Right? Like, you've never been married. You're 40. Just something's wrong with you. You don't want to hear that. Like, no, I've been married before. I have kids as well. Right. So that's how my mind was working in that instance right there. So I did want to be married. If you ask my wife, like, she's done my. She's done, like, some live videos on my. On my. My YouTube channel. And she could just tell the day we got married, she's like, I don't think he really want to get married.

[A]

Do you feel like in hindsight, you sort of could see where she's coming from?

[B]

Oh, absolutely. Like, when I. When she first said that, it hurt my feelings. It made me feel. It made me angry. Right. Just like her. Like, you didn't think I wanted to marry you. What's wrong with you? You know, why would you think that? That's how my mind really. When you say something to a narcissist that's any. If it's not praise, it's criticism, right? It's an attack. It feel like it's an attack on your personality. It's an attack on your ego. I don't think you wanted to marry me. Flame on. I'm angry now. Why the hell you think that? What did I do? You know, I didn't think you wanted to marry me. Are you automatically going to the defense because your ego is kind of like, you have this. This. This glass ego, right? And it's got a crack. You're like. Like a spider line crack in your windshield.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it just gets bigger over time. And she said. I remember getting pissed off. I was like, why would you say something like that?

[A]

Instead of reassuring her and comforting her to say, like, of course I wanted to marry you. Of course I love you. Of course I wanted to spend my life with you. It was. Now I'm raging.

[B]

Immediate anger, immediate anchor. It makes you feel small. It makes you feel like, why you. Why are you attacking me?

[A]

Right?

[B]

You know, instead of, like, hearing it from her perspective as a, you know, some constructive criticism. Hey, you're not giving me the affection and love I need. I heard it as, you're not good enough. So I literally went on the, you may just flamed on and get angry. You know, instead of just trying to hear where she's coming from and just trying to relate to her, I went on attack mode.

[A]

So try to follow the bouncing ball here. You sort of dealing with this your whole life, maybe possibly being compared to your twin brother or wanting to be like him and not knowing who you were as a child. Do you think that that maybe contributed to that?

[B]

No, absolutely. I think that could be true right there. Because I, like, just growing up, I was in, like, the, you know, my brother's smart, but, like, I was in the academically gifted classes.

[A]

You were or you weren't?

[B]

I was. You know, so did you have other

[A]

siblings besides your twin or just you and your twin?

[B]

So I have two younger.

[A]

I mean, he's like, I didn't sign up for this today.

[B]

I was like, I have two younger siblings, like, by my mom.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Right. But my dad has. I don't know how many. You know, I don't know how many he has.

[A]

You don't, like, because you lost count or because you never met them?

[B]

I've met, like, so my sister on my dad's side, I'm close to. Right.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'm close to her. But all my brothers and things like that, they're like, I'm not. I don't. I know who they are. We're friends on Facebook. But I don't, like, know them personally.

[A]

And there's a lot of them.

[B]

There's a lot of them, yeah. Like, he's 60 years old, and I'm. I think he just had another baby, you know?

[A]

Are you being funny?

[B]

No, I think. I'm pretty sure he's had another baby.

[A]

Okay, so you have a lot of siblings with your dad and then with your mom. There's four of you.

[B]

There's four of us that grew up in the same house.

[A]

Okay. Now that we know this about your family and your dad, is narcissism hereditary?

[B]

So it could be a genetic component to narcissism. Right.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I think actually understanding my dad's mental health journey helped me heal because I used to have a lot of resentment for him. Like, the last one of the most, like, vivid memories I have of him when I was a kid, like, he had some girl over in my grandma's house. Right? And we were just like, where's dad at? Like, he was. He was just. So I'm going upstairs with some woman. Let's go play on. Let's go. Knock on the door and take off running. So I remember knocking on the door and running and him coming out. We are all laughing in the front yard, smiling. And he comes downstairs, and he, like, hits me across the leg, and he's, like, angry. I was like, wait, what? I remember looking at him. I just feel like he wanted me to. He wanted to see me hurt. And I remember my. In my. It's kind of like my mind disconnected. I was like, I'm not gonna cry because you want me to cry. I'm never crying again. And, like, my mind kind of shut down at that moment right there. Right. And I didn't cry for so long. It was crazy. But there's like, eight or nine years

[A]

old but that one moment in time didn't help. I remember, like, you were like, I'm never crying again.

[B]

Yeah, I just wanted. I'm never gonna cry again. I don't want people to see me in pain. I'm not gonna be vulnerable again. Not necessarily cry, but I'm not gonna be vulnerable and be this person in front of people. And I held on to that for so long. When I started therapy, I was a couple of years in and I was talking. My therapist said something about my dad. I got. I kind of got angry. She's like, you don't like people having power over you, do you? I was like, I hate it. With a passion. She's like, your dad has power over you. I was like, wait, what? How? I don't talk to him.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

She's like, you see your reaction. You just reacted. It's like when you think about him, you talk about him. You can't control your emotions. So in essence, this person has control over you. To have power over you.

[A]

That's a hard pill to swallow.

[B]

How do you get rid of this?

[A]

Can you.

[B]

How do you get rid of this? She's like, you. That's. That's kind of like a self journey you have to take. So I remember going home. I get angry. I get on the Internet. I don't know why it is like, so I'm angry. I'm like, I hate that this bastard has control over me. How do I get. How do I get rid of this? So I get on Ancestry.com, right? Because I know his mom. I know my grandma, right? My paternal grandmother. I know her, right? We grew. That's who he used to live with when he was growing up. So I know her. I never knew his father. I was like, what if he had issues with his dad? Let me just look that up. Because I don't. I don't know. I never remember meeting my grandpa. So I'm looking it up on Ancestry.com, put my dad's name in. Put my grandma's name in. And I'm just, like, going through, you know, I don't know if you ever got on Ancestry.com. oh, yeah, it gives you hints.

[A]

There's a whole scandal on there.

[B]

It gives you hints. Like, we have a hint.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, like, hit your grandma. Like, oh, okay. And it's my grandma. I didn't know my grandpa's name. So, like, nobody.

[A]

You didn't ask?

[B]

I didn't think to ask. I was just like, when I was growing up, I don't know. It's my grandma and my dad.

[A]

You just don't ask questions.

[B]

You didn't think about it because he was like, my dad and mom didn't live together. So I was like, like, maybe my, my dad's mom and dad didn't live together. So this is. You don't really think about that. So I'm sitting on the couch, I'm like, okay, hint. I found out my grandpa's name, so I connected it to the family tree.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then another hint popped up. It was like his death certificate. I'm like, oh, he died. He's not even alive. So, okay. So I click on the death certificate and it got his name right there. I was like, okay, it says the date he died. Died. I'm thinking he died in like the 2000s, the 90s. He like died in the 70s. I'm like, wait, what? I'm like, huh? And I was like, okay, he died in the 70s. Like, and it's like, cause of death, small gunshot. Small caliber gunshot wound to the head. Suicide. I was like, wait. So I look at it, even I get deeper. It's like a Monday morning, 5:30am I guess he got up and wouldn't shot himself in the head. Right.

[A]

So he struggled with mental health.

[B]

Yeah. And so I think my dad also struggled the one to found him. So it traumatized him from the time he was 7 or 8 years old. You know, this is the 70s, ain't no like the psychotherapist, like, how do you feel, son?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Your dad kills himself on Monday. You're probably back in school Wednesday or Thursday. So he, he grew up with that trauma of.

[A]

I mean, even if he wasn't the one to find him, it's still traumatizing in your formative years. I mean before 8 years old they say is like 0 to 8 is like the formative years. Like you, you as a parent have a huge obligation to your kids mental well being from zero to eight.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So it's possible that he also struggled with mental health.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Let's talk about GLP1s for a second because I know how truly difficult it can be to lose weight if that's something that you are constantly worried about. I've always had a fluctuating weight since the beginning of time for a as far back as I can remember. And if you've felt stuck trying to lose weight, you're not alone. Enter weight loss by hers. Okay. It's designed to support you in reaching your goals. And hers now offers access to an affordable range of FDA approved GLP1 medications, including the Wegovy pill at its lowest price ever and the Will Govi pen. So we all know that losing weight is one thing, but keeping it off, that's where it gets really, really frustrating for me. I've never been able to sustain it long term. And so that's why Weight Loss by Hers now offers access to the FDA approved WeGovy pill that's at its lowest price ever and the FDA approved WeGovy pen. And Wegovy is designed to help you lose weight and keep it off, which is really nice. So between diets, workouts and endless advice, it's hard to know really where to go with weight loss. And that's why hers is such a great option. Hers offers access to an affordable range of FDA approved GLP1 medications, and that now includes the Wegovy pill at its lowest price ever and the Wegovy pen. And with WeGovy at hers, you'll lose up to 20% or more of your body weight. When combined with diet and exercise, it helps you regulate your appetite, eat less and keep the weight off. Plus, Wegovy is the first and only GLP1 available in a pill, so there are no needles needed. If you're like me, I can't do needles. So this might be a great option for you. And everything is 100% online. Through hers, you'll connect with a licensed provider who will determine if treatment is right for you. And if you're prescribed, your medication is delivered straight to your door. No insurance necessary. And it doesn't stop there. Okay, so Weight Loss by Hers goes beyond medication by offering access to 24. 7 messaging with your care team and tons of in app lifestyle and nutrition tips like recipes, meal plans, fitness videos, sleep content and more. Even better, with a range of affordable GLP1 options, hers makes it simple to find an approach that fits your needs and your budget. If eligible, you'll get a treatment plan personalized to you and unlimited dosage changes as needed. It's weight loss designed for you to work with your life, which is really nice. So if you're ready to reach your goals, visit 4hers.com/famous to get personalized affordable care that gets you. That's F O R H E R S.com/famous for hers.com famous based on advertised cash price for 30 day supply of medication only, membership required, fee not included, and billed separately. Weight Loss by Hers is not available in all 50 states. WeGovy is the registered trademark of Novo Nordisk as to get started and learn more, including important safety information. WeGovy clinical study information and restrictions. Visit for hers.com.

[B]

so my therapist, she was just saying because when I got my first. When I got my diagnosis, she's like, okay, you got diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder. You have a general anxiety disorder and also, like clinical depression. I was like, well, it's a hodgepodge or stuff, you know? But I started telling my. My grandfather, and she was like, you also kind of spiked on, like, schizoid traits. And I was like, what is that?

[A]

Like the mirror thing?

[B]

That's literally our ass. She's like, schizoid traits are like signs of schizophrenia, but you can have traits

[A]

of that without having the full blown schizophrenia.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So is that like the mirror thing? When you saw the mirror, when you saw your reflection looking at you?

[B]

I never thought about it like that.

[A]

Sorry, I'm just here. Fake diagnosis.

[B]

I never thought about it like that because I swear my reflection looked at me, and that's the only reason I looked at the mirror. Yeah, that's literally. I got to go back. No, but she said I had schizoid trace. I didn't mention that to her. This is after the fact.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

So, okay. I never told my therapist that.

[A]

Well, maybe tell her when you get home.

[B]

I'm definitely gonna tell her that now. But I remember, like, she's like, yeah, there's some. I remember when she was giving me, like, the. The psychological evaluation, there was questions she asked or whatever, but then she was reading the results, like, a couple weeks later, she's like, so by the way, when you are watching TV or listen to the radio, anything like that, do you ever feel like the radio is like. Or the TV is like, giving messages specifically for you? Like, no.

[A]

Oh, I thought you were gonna say that.

[B]

No, I was like, I feel like I connect to a movie. And I was like, that could be me. Yeah. I'm not just like, kill John Lennon. I'm like, who said that? And I'm not anything like that. She's like, I'm like, no, why do you ask that? But then I realized she's like, you have schizoid traits which could result. Like, that could be a genetic thing passed down for your grandfather because he probably has schizophrenia that told him to go to the bathroom and kill himself, you know?

[A]

Wow. As a diagnosed narcissist, even before you had nurse knew that you were a narcissist, did that change the way that you would answer questions on a psychological evaluation? Because I do feel. And I don't know very much about narcissism, but I feel like what I do know, you would know how to manipulate evaluations like that.

[B]

So. So even like when I got diagnosed, I was, you know, I, I wanted real answers. I was gonna be honest regardless. Right.

[A]

Okay. So if something on the evaluation didn't really match what you wanted to say, you would still be honest?

[B]

I would say be honest, yeah. So some of these second the psych evals have built in lie detectors.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[B]

So like the, the one, the test. I took two tests. I took the MMPI2 and the PDQ4. The MMPI2 has a built in kind of like is. It detects deception. So they ask the same question a few different times. Different, very different ways. You won't know it if it's the same question. Right. So if you lie, you answer in different ways, it's like, oh, yeah, you spiked high on deception, by the way, you know, because you asked, do we ask the same question eight times? You gave eight different answers. So they'll, they'll be able to tell in those situations right there.

[A]

So now that you sort of are going through therapy and you knew that you. You get diagnosed, did anyone that you shared this information with say, oh, wow, that makes sense.

[B]

My wife, she. It makes sense to her because she had already knew it, right? Because, you know, she knew she. She already knew it. Like she called me a narcissist when she left out the door. She had already, I think her aunt put her own. Her aunt had dealt with a narcissistic husband or whatever and put her own

[A]

to what that is.

[B]

I think he might be a narcissist and that type of stuff. So she already knew what it was even before I did. So I didn't know anything about narcissism or narcissistic abuse or toxic relationships or anything like that until after I got diagnosed and I started doing tiktoks.

[A]

You know, what is narcissistic abuse?

[B]

It's emotional. Well, it could be physical abuse as well, but it's like emotional abuse. But it's like on a deeper psychological level, right? It takes you through the wrinkles. It changes you. The change is the core.

[A]

Could you give me an example of it?

[B]

There's a cycle of narcissistic abuse, right? It typically starts with love bombing, right? Idealization. Love bombing. Like, they pick you. They look, they idealize you. They put you on this pedestal, but they love bombing. They give you everything you wanted. You see this person for like, God, this person is. This is the Perfect person for me. Then once they love bombing ends, they start devaluing you. They take the love away. It's stripped from you. They lie to you, they cheat on you. They don't necessarily cheat on you. They just start to devalue you. They. They used to tell you I love you every morning. Now it's once a week. Now it's once a month. Now there's no more affection. They start taking things away from you slowly.

[A]

And then on the flip side, they, the partner is like craving it, wanting it. Now they're needy and clingy and all of those things. And then does the narcissist ever go back to loving them and showing them? Is it like the breadcrumbing situation?

[B]

It really just depends, right? Because, like, once the devaluation phase kicks in, there are times when they do the love bombing again. Like, I don't even call it love bombing because it'll never be the same again. It's like a love pop, right? It's like a little love pops, you know, little poppers you throw, like they hit the ground and pop. It's like that now.

[A]

So in the beginning it's a bomb. But then over time, it's just like a here and there.

[B]

Kind of one thing that they might have used to do that makes you happy again. Like, I used to give me flowers every week. Now you, instead of giving you a dozen roses, they give you one rose every once in a while. You're like, oh, that means the world to me. In the stages of a normal relationship. Yeah, there's, there's typically tell off, it falls off because, like, you're not going to have this hot, this burning hot heat the whole time, right? I mean, some people, some people could, but it's just like the intention behind the actions, right?

[A]

So does a narcissist have intentions behind the actions or.

[B]

So when I look back at it, my old, my previous relationships, there wasn't any intent on getting rid of people. There was intent on loving them because they made me feel good. So as long as you make me feel good, I make you feel good. But then when I no longer see you as perfect, I call it flaws, right? Everybody has flaws. Flaws don't mean anything. You can set a boundary. You can say no. You're like, when you normally say yes, now you say no. I'm like, wait, you're not perfect anymore to me. How dare you say no to me. You used to say yes to this. Why don't you like this? You know, so once you say no, Once you set a boundary, once you no longer fit this perfect criteria, that's when they start taking the love away, you know? And that could be any. It doesn't have to be a certain amount of time. That could be weeks, months. I had a woman comment earlier. It was years. You know, it really just depends on the person, right? Because once they take you off that pedestal, once they see your flaws, they take it away.

[A]

You know, that's so fascinating to me. I almost wish your wife was here, because I would love to just kind of pick her brain, you know, she had an idea that maybe you were narcissistic, and then you were diagnosed as narcissistic. And so what made her hold on through all of it, right? Like, what made her. How did you even get her back and, like, heal that part of you to get her back?

[B]

So my wife has probably been watching you since you was like, your early days.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Oh, well, next time. Next time, bring her with you.

[B]

No, she. 100. I was like, I'm gonna be on this podcast. She was like, what? I've been following her since teen mom and all that.

[A]

Tell her she's welcome next time.

[B]

It was funny. No, it was super funny. But no. So with. With her, I think, because even outside of narcissism, when I said something, I did it right? I, like, I'm 25, 26. I'm like, I'm gonna go back to school and get a degree. I did it. I'm gonna do. I'm gonna lose 60 pounds. I did it, like, every time I say I was consistent with things outside. So I think there was a belief that, like, when he said when he puts his mind to something, he's actually going to do it.

[A]

And that's a narcissistic trait or.

[B]

No, no, that's not okay.

[A]

Because I. That I'm the same way. It might take me five years, but I'm gonna do what I say I'm gonna do. And I thought you were about to say that's narcissism, because then I was gonna to cry.

[B]

No, that's not narcissistic. That's not a narcissist, right? No, it's just like, for me, outside of narcissism, narcissism is, like, personal. It's a personality disorder. It. It affects everybody in different ways, Right? So no two narcissists are going to be the same, like, ever, right?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Like, no, no 2. Like, even some of the videos. Like, the other day I talked to a guy, he had been Diagnosed with narcissism, just like me.

[A]

Could you tell?

[B]

Yeah, when I talked to him. Yeah. After a while.

[A]

Because you know how they say it takes one to know one.

[B]

Yeah. After a while when I was talking to him. Because when I do these, like, coaching calls with other narcissists, it's. It's kind of weird because most times it's because they're. Sometimes it's because they find me on social media, like, I want to talk to this guy, see how he got better. Most times it's like their wife or their husband or somebody just like, I want to sign you up for this. Talk to this guy. And sometimes I used to get, like, ambushed with. Because they didn't know who I was. I'm like, you don't know who I am? They're like, no, my girlfriend determined to talk to you.

[A]

Oh. And you're like, now I have to explain that you're.

[B]

I'm like, well, I don't know why she wants to talk to me, but this is what I do online. So it would broach over, and I would. It would end up being cool by the end. But when they come to me and talk to me, I tell them my story, and I tell them how I feel about certain situations and how I got to this point, that's when they start vibing with me, right? Because they feel the same way. They have the same thoughts. They just. Because there's different socioeconomic statuses, religions, ethnicities, no two people are going to be the same. Right?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Different situations. Like. Like, I had friends that are narcissists, right?

[A]

And they, you know, other ones.

[B]

Oh, hell yeah. Like, they're not diagnosed, but I know. I 100 know that they're narcissists, right?

[A]

100, because you can't bullshit a bullshitter. Have you ever had someone come basically deny being a narcissist? And you're like, I can see through your. Like, are they, like, lie by omission or things like that? And you're like, no, you are a narcissist.

[B]

Just like a therapist. Like, you can only go with what the people tell you, right?

[A]

I'm sure you have your.

[B]

I'm listening to people tell these stories. I'm like, what. What you say? It's like, yeah, man, I only cheated on because she did this. I'm like, what? You cheated? Okay, here we go. You know, so it really kind of depends on what they say, right? Because I'm always. I'm always listening astutely, you know? I mean, I'm Always listening and trying to analyze people and stuff like that. But the people in my real life who I know, they were narcissists, I knew that they were. I'm just like, you are 100. And I started getting more popular on social media. They were like, man, I think I'm a narcissist too. Like, yeah, you probably are, you know, but does that make them want to change? No. Most of them were accepting of who they were because it gets them places right. It's like it serves you. Hey, being a narcissist may be more confident, more maybe my ego has got me into doors. If I was shy, I wouldn't get in. So narcissism serves them. The ego served them. The lack of shame sometimes or the ability to override shame serves them in life sometimes.

[A]

It's springtime. You might wear your hair up, you might wear it down. But you know that feeling when your ponytail suddenly feels a little fuller or when you head out the door and realize you don't even do that last mirror check anymore because you already know everything is sitting right. Those small moments start to add up, especially in the spring and summertime. And before you know it, you're just feeling like yourself again. Well, I'm here to tell you Nutrafol supports that they support your hair health from within, helping you grow stronger, visibly thicker hair. So those that feeling when moments happen more and more often. And good hair days also will happen more often with Nutrafol. Okay? When your hair feels healthy, you show up differently. You're more confident, more relaxed, and you're not constantly checking in mirrors or pulling hair strands off of your off of your clothing. Okay? Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand and it's the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists. So Nutrafol's hair growth supplements are peer reviewed, NSF certified for sport and clinically tested, which is nice. It's not a one size fits all. There's multiple formulas for men and women tailored to different lifestyles. So postpartum, menopause or lifestyle factors like plant based or whatever your diet is looking like. And adding neutral fold to your daily routine is easy. You order online, no prescription needed. And with automated deliveries to make it easy, you get free shipping and you can stay on track. Plus with a neutrophil subscription, you can save up to 20 and get added perks in support of your hair health journey. Let your hair be one less thing to worry about. See visibly thicker, stronger, faster growing hair in three to six months with Nutrafol. For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering my listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you visit nutrafol.com and enter promo code famous. That's nutrafold.com spelled n u t r a f f o l dot com promo code famous.

[B]

One of my best friends was 100, a narcissist, right? And when I first got into real, we were like real estate partners and we were doing real estate, like really good. I was, I was good in real estate. He was like, it sound narcissist, but I was good in real estate. But like, he was like my partner. But people, because I was good in real estate and we were always associated with each other they thought he was good at. And we'd be at the bar, he'd be talking to girls like, you know, I sell a lot of houses, right? I'm like.

[A]

And it's like, that was you.

[B]

I'm just like, you bastard, you man. He'd be lying. But then, like once my, once I started getting bigger on social media, I stopped doing real estate as much, right? And then I'm super protective of my platform. Like 100. Like I. Because I know I talk to a lot of victims, domestic violence of toxic relationship dynamics. I'm super. I know these are vulnerable women and people like you don't. They don't. You don't want to try to sleep. But I'm like, no, why would I do that? You know, I was just like, no, I'm super protective of my platform, right? Like, would a narcissist say that? Like, yes, because I've been doing this for so long. I understand the power dynamics. I understand, like, could I take advantage of these, these vulnerable women? Yes. It gives me more power not to. It gives me more power to help them out because of your platform.

[A]

Like, you don't want to.

[B]

I'm married, first of all.

[A]

But like, in the way that I. In the way that you're saying it, I'm thinking that, like, you wouldn't want to sleep with these women and cheat on your wife because it could ruin your platform and your business. Is that what it would.

[B]

Would hurt my wife feelings first, you know? But like, outside of that, yeah. If I was single, it was still ruin my business. Like, you're just taking advantage of vulnerable women because they're in these situations, they're hurting and they're bonding to you because you remind them of their exes or whatever.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Which I understand. Right? So I understand the power dynamics of these type of relationships. So my friend started following girls that follow me, and he started reaching out to him.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yeah. And one of the girls, I used to have these workshops, right. I had met her a couple times. He started messaging her, like, talking to her, and she was like, your friend messaging me. I was like, wait, who? I like, no, don't talk to him. He's a narcissist. You know.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

And, yeah, he was sneaking around and he. He. She asked him. She's like, why does he want us to talk? And she sent me a screenshot what he said. He's like, maybe he's jealous of you talking to me and he wants you. I was like, you. I was just like, that's what I get for being friends with you. I know you're a narcissist. That's why I get it.

[A]

Do you think narcissism is more prevalent than we all think?

[B]

I think it's varying levels of it, Right. Because some people say it's 1% of the population that are diagnosed. But I think Dr. Romany, who's a big expert on it, right. She's like 15, 20 of people, right.

[A]

So it is more prevalent than what? Because I know that there's. I've read certain things and I've seen things on Tick Tock University. Of course, that university, they say, you know, it's a buzzword, and not everyone that you encounter is a narcissist. But then on the flip side, you see things like, what's the doctor that you just named?

[B]

Dr. Romney.

[A]

Yeah. Said that it's more like 15 or 20. But then other people are like, well, it's only 1%. But I feel like narcissists, narcissists specifically are not out there getting tested for, like, they're not getting evaluated for it. So, like, you can't really have a number. Would you say, since you just said that you talk to a lot of domestic domestic violence survivors and victims, would you say that those types of relationships are often with narcissists? Like the toxic and domestic violence?

[B]

Yeah. If you. If you are being domestic, like, domestic violence, if you're beating on women, you 100 have a narcissistic personality type. You might not be diagnosed, but there's a. There's a personality type right there. Right. Do you think you're a narcissist?

[A]

Sometimes I think I have BPD also.

[B]

No. So I'm glad you said that because, like, 100, like, when I was watching. I watched a bunch of podcasts Right. Actually watched the one you had with Lala. She. She shared. When I was saying years ago, I was like, hey, I watch. I watch Vanderpump Rules because my wife is like. It's like one of them guilty pleasures I like.

[A]

So she had me on her podcast.

[B]

Yeah. I was like, what's Jax doing? You know, Jax is in some shit to get there. So I saw you talking to her and whatnot, and I just heard your story, and I was like, I bet. And I was just like, in. Like. I was like, I bet Kel probably thinks she's a narcissist. This is like, this stuff that you were saying, and I'm pretty sure some of your exes probably think a narcissist do. But. But I don't think you don't have the energy to be a narcissist. Right?

[A]

What is the energy? Are you sure? Can you analyze.

[B]

Please feel it? Because, like, when I see your story, right. There's certain cues you do when I hear you talking about your story that I can tell that affects you. Like, your relationship with your mom definitely affects you, right. Sometimes. You probably heard this before. I feel like sometimes you might be overcompensating with your own kids. Like, you're like, 1,000% my kids. Like, I didn't have this. I'm doing this to my kids. Which is. Which is a gracious thing to do. That's what you feel like you need to do right there for makeup for stuff. But I don't think you're narcissist. I feel like you just don't have the. Could you be more lean towards Borderline. Yeah. Borderline personality disorder traits. Right. But it's like, more towards those traits, right? Because when I heard you talking about falling in love, I seen you light up, and he's like, I follow all love quickly. I was like, oh, there it is.

[A]

You know, Is that a trait of borderline?

[B]

Yeah. You had that energy, but I was like, that sounds borderline right there.

[A]

Wait, why? What can tell me about.

[B]

Because. Because, like, you have empathy if you care for your kids. I feel like you would die for your kids, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Narcissists wouldn't do. They wouldn't do that unless they were

[A]

like, would they say they would, though?

[B]

I'm dying for my kids now. Then you jump off a cliff, right? You will want credit for dying for your kid. You have too much empathy to be a narcissist. I just like, yeah. Could you have narcissistic traits sometimes and express them differently in Certain ways, yeah, absolutely. Because you're human, right? You go in self defense mode. When you have to, you feel attacked, you go in self defense mode. But I feel like just based on your history, your relationship with your mom, your dad passing away, all the other stuff that I was listening to.

[A]

You did your homework.

[B]

I was listening. I was listening. I had a long drive. I was listening.

[A]

Did you leave?

[B]

You know what I mean? I was listening and my wife was telling me stuff too. I was just like, she's like, this is, you need to know this. And I'm like, oh, okay, cool.

[A]

You know, we love a supportive wife. We love that.

[B]

Because I was listening to some people who don't like you. Right. So I was kind of getting both sides of it. Right. There's people who don't like you, they

[A]

do not fuck with me.

[B]

There's people who don't like it. They make a living off of like, let me see what Kel did today. You know, they're watching, they follow you. But no, I was just like, you know, you, I don't, I don't think you're a narcissist. Like, I, I, I have narcissistic friends. I've been around diagnosed narcissists. You have like, more like towards like borderline traits. And like, that type of stuff can be worked on. Right.

[A]

Because should I ask my therapist? I did ask her about bpd.

[B]

I'm just, you know, I just feel like that helps because I feel like if I would, if I would went to therapy, just like, oh, no, you have adhd.

[A]

I do have adhd, yeah.

[B]

No, I say if I went to therapy and said that I think I have adhd, they would have had me working on that instead of what I actually have. Right. So I feel like getting a diagnosis sometimes can feel like a hindrance. Like if I have this diagnosis, people are going to attack me for it. That's how I felt. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was like, you can't attack me for something I'm working on. I'm active on. Like, people come out, people come on comment section like, you're a narcissist. Like, I know, it's in my bio. I said that you wouldn't know that if I didn't tell you that. And like, and most people attack them because, like, you're trying to shame somebody who's working, who's act, who's in active recovery. Like, he's trying to help people. He's doing this. Like, what do you get from trying to shame this person? And like, when I. When I saw your story and the, the trauma. I think your mom was a narcissist.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. No. When I hear that I was like woo. Disappearing from weeks at a time and months and just you. How you. You felt. I feel like because you felt so unloved, you seek love sometimes, right? You seek it and then when you like get betrayed, you like, what do you do? You move like. Yeah. That's how this, how your mind. There's nothing 100%, there's nothing wrong with that. I have BPD people or whatever, borderline people. People can be very, very good people. Right. So just love too hard.

[A]

I don't know enough about bpd could and I don't are you.

[B]

I'm not an expert in it.

[A]

Right, you're not an expert. But could you tell me what you know?

[B]

I thought there's so many people who. That's when I say, when I was looking at your story, I was just like, what are the quality?

[A]

What are the traits of that?

[B]

Because you can grow up in a narcissistic household or have a narcissistic parent. I was telling you earlier, it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to become a narcissist. Right. You can become a narcissist because you grew up in a toxic household, but you can also become an empath. Like you can over loving, over hypersensitive, hyper empathetic. Right. You can become too caring. You become like, you can't say the word no. You become a people pleaser.

[A]

I'm all of those things.

[B]

I hear you say that too. I heard you say that. Right? He's like, I have to say no to people and like make you feel. No.

[A]

And I don't like confrontation.

[B]

Yeah. So that's not like me. I would. We're going to confront each other, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't think you're. I don't think you're narcissist. Like, could there be some stuff going on there that. Because narcissism and BPD are both cluster B personality disorder. There could be some stuff right there that entangle and make you feel that way. But I just don't think you're a narcissist. Like, even from looking at the videos, I would have known. I was like, that's why I was watching these videos on the way up here. I was like. And then you told me so about your mom. You're like, my mom? And you're laughing when you're telling this story because that's a trauma response. She's like my mom just disappeared for weeks.

[A]

I was like, you just locked through the pain.

[B]

You know what I mean? She literally. I was just. I would just go to anybody's house who would want me. I was like, like, I was like, let me put on some usher pallet cleanser. Hold on.

[A]

I need a pallet cleanser.

[B]

I need a pallet cleanser because it's trauma, you know? I know childhood trauma. I know that. But. But the thing about childhood trauma, it doesn't stop, right? Yeah, you can have trauma as a childhood, but then like you, you. You don't stop in your childhood. Like adult trauma. And it sometimes it just piles up, right. If you don't work through it, it just keeps piling up and piling up and piling up. I can tell you love your kids. Like when I was listening to yourself stuff, I was like, no, she loves her children 100%. You love your kids, which most narcissists don't. Right? They just like, they love their kids. But it's just, it's situational, right? It's a situational thing. It's just like, it has to serve me to love you. You know, I need something from this. Right. If my daughter was famous, then I'd be like, let's my famous baby. You know what I mean? That's what you see. The dance moms.

[A]

My mom there was. I always say I didn't really have a baby shower, but I guess I. I kind of had one with my first son.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was at Joe's house, my. His. His grandparents house. And my mom whispered in my ear, save my gift for last. I want you to open it last so everyone can see what I got you.

[B]

Oh dear. Say that's narcissistic.

[A]

Would you say that narcissists have a sort of distorted perception of reality?

[B]

Like 100, 100%. This like distorted reality, right? It just, it like, like even in the stories that I like, I see people online tell them. Like, that sounds crazy. Even my own stories about my own real life, it would sound crazy to me when I look back at it. Like, why was I thinking it? Why was I saying that type of stuff right there?

[A]

So like during these trying times that you have had with your wife, if you guys were to tell somebody about why you were fighting, would your stories be very, very different then because your perception was so much different than hers?

[B]

100, 100. Sometimes, like some. Honestly, sometimes. Sometimes I would black out and I wouldn't remember stuff. Right. So our stories would be different.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Because, like, one time, like, I remember, and it's like, a crazy story. Like, there was this picture. Like, we had this. My wife. We had a photo shoot. It was like a canvas picture in the wall, right? And it was like, of me and her. And one day, I saw it in the closet in my son's closet cut up. I was like, why would she cut that picture up? I was like, like, she cut the picture up and she put it in the closet. Like, maybe she just needs it to heal. Maybe she just needs it to remember bad stuff that has happened, right? I was like, okay. When I was like, okay, I was a therapist. I went to therapy and talked to my therapist about it. Like, this picture in the closet kind of bothers me. I want. I want to talk to her about getting rid of it, right? And I was like, she's like, well, maybe it's time to talk to her. Like, who's laying in bed one night, literally, she's on her phone. And I was like, it's like. It's like, when. When can we talk about getting rid of that. That picture that you cut up, that's in. In our son's closet. And she was like, on the phone, she was like, you cut that picture up? I was like, what? No, I didn't. Why would I do that and put it in his closet? And she's like, you cut that picture? I'm like, no, I didn't. I. Like, I understand. It's embarrassing. Whatever. She's like, nope. She went to her phone, and she started scrolling back, and she found it, and she showed me a visit. She showed me a message. When she text her aunt, she like, he's running around the house humming, and he's cutting pictures up.

[A]

But could that be the schizo, though?

[B]

That was like a psychotic break.

[A]

Yeah, for sure. Because that doesn't feel like narcissism.

[B]

It was a psychotic break. But sometimes. Sometimes you can have, like, narcissism. Very rarely is a thing in and of itself, right?

[A]

Okay. So it kind of has other.

[B]

It has other things. Like I said, I have general anxiety disorder, which increases paranoia, which increases other stuff. Like, it's things that is kind of comorbid with a lot of things, right? And I was like, wait, I cut it up and she showed me that picture. I was like. Because she had called the police. Like, the police came, and she said there was a scary. She said, that was one of the scariest moments in our marriage because, like, I was cutting pictures up and stuff like that. And she was like, holding our son. And then I remember open. She opened the door, and the police came in the house. And then she, like, you started acting different immediately when the police came in there.

[A]

So was that, like, the narcissism clicking?

[B]

I only remember the police coming in there. I didn't remember anything before that. So when the police.

[A]

Like a psychotic.

[B]

When the police came, I was like, what are y' all doing here? I'm literally like, what are y' all doing here? Like, they didn't arrest me. Nothing. She's like, right, he doesn't know what you're talking about. And she was scared as hell because

[A]

she's like, you see that Flip?

[B]

Yeah. Because I honestly 100 did not know what had happened. And, like, she can attest to that because, like, the picture was in the closet cut up for years. It was in there for years. And I was just like, I thought she did. That's why I didn't throw it away. And I was just like. When she turned, I'm pretending she was on the phone. She's like, you know how you're in a dark room and the phone was lighting up your face and you're just. And she. I'm like, when you go, turn that picture away, she's like,

[A]

like, the audacity for you to say that.

[B]

Cut that up. I'm like, no, I didn't.

[A]

So how do you guys live with it now? Like, how do you With. With.

[B]

You know, I think because I've been able to manage my behaviors so much better over the last us. You know, we've been together. It's been. Since 2011, the end of 2011. So we've got 14 years. So, you know, it's just like. Because we. The first few. The first time we were together, we're like. We were growing. We're still super young, right? I had my. I had my son. He was like three at the time. He's. He might be 18 now, but she was like, when she was growing up or whatever. I mean, we kind of grew up together, but I think that played a role because we had so much history together, and we kind of grown together and moves different places and all this other stuff. I feel like that played a huge role in it. And plus, I just, like, when I committed to it, I've made those changes, you know, like, hey, I'm not going to yell anymore. And it's been years since I've yelled. I don't feel the need to.

[A]

But I guess, like, how do you commit to those changes if you're A narcissist. Like, I guess I'm having a hard time with the acknowledgment. Like, how does a narcissist. When you know what narcissism is, how does a narcissist commit to those changes and actually work on the. On changing the behaviors?

[B]

It sounds narcissistic, but I had to be selfish. Selfish with my healing. Right. I couldn't put the goal of my growth journey on her or my kids.

[A]

But you wanted to change.

[B]

Yeah, I can't. I can't put the goal of being better to. I want to be. I want to be better because of my wife, because of my kids. Because what if my wife ends up leaving? If it all hinders on her. Her. She leaves, am I going to stop? So when I made the commitment. The mirror talk. Yeah, the mirror talk. I'm still thinking about that too. The mirror chat. I had myself. I was just like, this got to be about me. I have to be selfish with my healing because, like, as long as I'm getting better, everybody around me feels it.

[A]

But then moving forward, how do you know whether you're doing something for your own ego or for the betterment of yourself and everybody else else?

[B]

Because, like now the betterment of everybody else serves the ego. When it once served me, everything used to just serve me. I like, how does this benefit me now? That's the question I used to ask myself, like very quickly, what I get from this. Now I can still ask myself that question, but it also includes other people, right? What's the benefit of this and how does it benefit?

[A]

So if it. Maybe if it only benefits you, maybe it's not the best decision.

[B]

It's not the best decision. Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Depending obviously on what it is.

[B]

Flip your mindset because if you. If not able to do that, that you're not able to be able to move forward with it. Because if you're not, you can't flip their mindset. If it's all just serving you, then you'll be alone by at the end

[A]

of the day looking back at your childhood and even throughout your diagnosis now, like, what warning signs can people look out for in narcissism, like in a narcissist?

[B]

So typically the first warning sign is going to be your own intuition, right? Because I think most people I've Talked to probably 90, 95% of the people I've talked to over the last few years, which is kind of crazy. I probably have like five, six thousand people.

[A]

That's a lot.

[B]

That's a lot. Yeah, My therapist, like, you talk to more people than I do. I was like, yeah. And most people I talked to, just like, I knew this was a red flag. They were self. They were self centered. They were angry to the waiter or waitress. They screamed at me on the first date. They lied to me. They did this. They did this. It's always something, a negative trait that makes them feel bad. Bad. But somehow, some way, they end up forgiving it or overlooking it because there's other qualities that they like. Like if you hit. If you have a checklist of 10 things and they check off eight, the two things that they don't check off are horrible. But like, you know what? Eight is bigger than two, so I'm gonna go with it.

[A]

Well, because nobody's gonna be the all 10, right? Like, even people who don't have narcissism are never gonna be all 10.

[B]

But how big are the other ones? How bad are the other ones, though? I feel like it varies right there, you know, because red flag flags gonna be different sizes. Right. You can buy them a different size.

[A]

I charge right. To all of the red flags.

[B]

Yeah. It'll be different sizes. So it just kind of depends on the size of it or whatnot. Right. I call it red flaggy, you know, because everything's not a red flag. It's gonna be orange, pinkish, you know, I mean, the color of it. Some things are red flags. Like, just know. By the way, I'm married. We still live in the same house, but, you know, we were working on beating separate. Like, that's. Most times that's a lie. Have I talked to people in the. In that situation that are not lying? Yeah, but most times this. It's weird. Flaggy, right? So it's just like, trust your intuition in that situation right there. When you're dealing with people like this or people that make you uncomfortable or people that set off your intuition, trust it. Because most people, when you kind of override your own intuition, you end up in toxicity. Right.

[A]

What about in kids? Like, can you notice narcissistic traits in children or is it hard because they're still kind of like growing and puberty and all kinds of things?

[B]

I feel like at a certain age you probably can notice it. Right. When you're like a kid, like toddler, whatever. I think most, most toddlers gonna be like, they want to do things for themselves. Right. They're not wanting to share, like, that's my toy. Even though you're not playing. Right, Right. The people said that's narcissism. Right. But I just like, you're not.

[A]

Let me tell my twins. Yeah, you guys are narcissists. If you're not sharing, you're not playing

[B]

the toy because he play with it. No. You know, this might. So it really just depends on the age. Right. I think typically you want to kind of monitor it around 10, 11, 12, because, like after 8, because that's when your personality really starts to kind of center in and you kind of see who you really. You kind of see who you're becoming.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Right. And I feel like that's the age you can course correct it, you know, because I've talked to like the people that I talk to that are. Or that could be narcissists. They vary in age. So I feel like around about the age of 10, 11, 12, you kind of start them. I mean, you can kind of tell earlier. Maybe tell earlier. I think people just. If you. If it's possible, get your kids into some type of play therapy. Right. Because, like, it's. It's good to. Even if you're just co parenting, it's good to have a separate voice that isn't mom or dad that they can trust.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

Even co parenting, you kind of. You kind of mentioned this. I hear this. You kind of mentioned this when you're talking to other people on podcasts or whatnot. I feel like when you co parent, especially when you're doing 50, 50 when they come back, if you think you're dealing with a narcissistic co parent. Right. Or toxic co parent, when they come back home, it's kind of like you have to give them a decompression zone. You know, it's kind of like when you could leave them. You come back from space or some kind of area where there's an outbreak. You have that hazmat suit on. You gotta get sprayed down.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You have to have that at the door when you first come in. Right. They have to have somewhere where they can sit and decompress and they have to trust you emotionally like the other parent. Because the non narcissistic parent, the. The low, the emotion, the burden of the emotional safety is to depend on you most times. Right. It can be unfair, but that's sometimes what ends up having to happen when you're dealing with a narcissistic parent who's typically trying to just do too much. You know, they just makes you watch when your mom says this or when your dad says this and you go over there, like they're planting seeds that grow. You Know, they're plant. They're trying to plant seeds.

[A]

They don't even have to explicitly say something to the kids. They could just plant the seed.

[B]

That's like, they can say it online and hopefully kids are here, they can post a video or something like that, and they just think the kids will hear it one day and can plant a seed. Right? They. They do things like that. They can just plant seeds, and later on, they hope that they hear some type of negative thought or negative thing and you. You can make your own decision about it. But that's what I said. That's why good, healthy communication with your kids helps out. It helps alleviate that burden right there. You know, just being able to talk, just literally being able to talk to your kids helps out.

[A]

How has narcissism impacted your parenthood?

[B]

I think for the first. The first few years of my. My oldest son's life, especially in my. My middle son, it probably wasn't. Wasn't the best and care for my kids, but it's still more. I was on my own journey. You know, I was worried about, involved by myself. Then I, hey, I'm a dad, but I got to do this, I got to do that. And there was a lot of emotional neglect there, where now it's more along the lines. I. I was overcompensating at first. I was like, I got to do everything to make up for it. But when you try to do too much, you go. It's kind of like you overcorrect when you. You're stirring off the. You. Let's say you driving a car and you lose control and you're going this way. Most people steer the other way. Right?

[A]

Right.

[B]

And you're gonna flip your car. Car. Sometimes you got to stir into the skid. You have to go like, okay, let me adjust and get back on track. It's like little things instead of one big over correction.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Then you flip the car.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That's why a lot. You got to stir into the skid sometimes.

[A]

Like, but does. Do you think. I mean, I guess you wouldn't know any different because you don't know what it's like to not be a narcissist. But, like, do you think it was harder to bond with your kids, like, maybe when they were born?

[B]

Yeah. No. So absolutely. I think, I think it was harder to bond because, like, my wife, she would attest to that. You never cry, you know, I mean, you didn't do anything. Like, basically for the first two, my oldest son's mom, she would definitely Say that. And then my. My wife, she would say that for my. My. My. My oldest son with her. But my daughter. Yeah, I was active. I was super active. I already been in therapy. I've already been doing the work, right. And I was good. I was, like, talking her through the pregnancy and when she was giving birth and like, yeah, you got to push. You're so strong. I. Rubbing her head and stuff like that. First two, I was just like, okay, okay. I wasn't as connected because I'm not pregnant. I'm not. I don't have the belly. You know me. I'm not as connected.

[A]

Do you know if narciss comorbid with, like, addiction ever?

[B]

I think most narcissists have an addictive

[A]

personality, you know, and by addictive personality, what does that mean?

[B]

I feel like it's very easy to fall into addictive things, right? Drugs, alcohol, things like that. So a lot of times you see a narcissist, they're alcoholics, or there are drug addicts, or they're addicted to porn. They have sex addictions, things like that. It's very rarely just like, you're a narcissist and that's it. Right.

[A]

But you didn't struggle with that stuff.

[B]

No. So I'm very astute with my, like, mind. I know I can't do certain things. Oh, I will get addicted. Like, you're a smoke. Like, I know how my mind works. I wouldn't do that. So I wouldn't just, like, get that and stop doing it. Because I can't just turn it off, Right. Some people just do it and turn it off. Like, even when I go to the hospital or something like that, I get hurt. They're like, here's some hydrocodone for your pain. I was like, no, you know what? Know.

[A]

You know, Which I kind of find that surprising, though, the addictive personality with narcissism. Because the way that I have always thought about narcissism was, like, sort of attaching it to, like, ego. So people that have big egos or they, you know, don't want to take a hit to their ego, why would they struggle with addiction when they should be better than that? They're. They're better than that. Do you know what I'm saying?

[B]

Yeah. So I feel like sometimes the voice of the ego is loud, right? And it's just. It's always negative. Your ego is not always saying positive things or feeding positive thoughts. They to you is feeding negative thoughts to you. So I think sometimes the ego could lead to an addiction because like, like doing some type of drinking or doing some type of drug can be a form of escapism.

[A]

Have you ever had somebody in your life that you suspected to be a narcissist and you confronted them and say, hey, like, I think you should get checked out. Like, have you ever? Or do you kind of just let them.

[B]

So I've had friends before that I kind of broach the topic, but they. They see my stuff, especially the fellows, they see my stuff and they just like, they don't vibe with it as much. Right. Because it's mental health and they just. You get this kind of hyper masculine mindset. What do you think dealing with your mental health or you're supposed to do drugs or drink and stuff like that.

[A]

Would you agree that also in the black community that they don't talk about a lot of mental health things?

[B]

Yeah, no, absolutely.

[A]

Why? What is the stigma around?

[B]

You know, because I feel like there's a. Just like, even just my specific neighborhoods and my specific family as well. Well, it's just like, you think it makes you. You don't want to be crazy, you don't want anything to be wrong with you, and it makes you look weak to go get help. Right. So when I first started my therapy journey, I would put online about going to therapy.

[A]

You would?

[B]

Yeah, I was just like. Because I didn't like the people on my Facebook. I didn't really care.

[A]

I just like, were you scared of what other people like, your family members and things would say?

[B]

I was a narcissist. Yeah. I was just like, I'm going to therapy. You know, everybody always helps to go get some help. You know, I didn't tell you I was diagnosed or anything, but were they

[A]

also apprehensive for you to go to therapy?

[B]

And in general, most people actually received it well, because most, most people. Most, again, most people were women who like, the status is like, sure, I like this. I love this. You know, even now, nowadays, I think my. My following percentage is like 85 women.

[A]

What's interesting to me about that, though, is that in the same breath, people will say, check on our men, encourage them to take care of their mental health. And then on the. In the literal same breath, they're like, oh, you're weak if you go to therapy.

[B]

Yeah, it's great.

[A]

So it's like you. It's. It's shouldn't be that. It's either we're gonna help our men and take care of, you know, men in general, not our men, but like, Just men in general. But then you can't then shame them for going to therapy either.

[B]

But again, this is kind of part of like the, the patriarchal mindset right there, right? Women fall into that category as well. Sometimes when you think men are weak for going to get help, right? You're supposed to. Why would you go to get therapy? You can just eat a steak, right? You can pound a Bud Light. It's just like, like they don't see the benefit in it as well. I feel like a lot of times it's just. It's the community, it's upbringing and things like that as well. That has a lot to do with that because I talked to, like I said, I've talked to so many different people over the last few years, and I actually thought I talked to a couple sometimes too, right? And the, the guy will hop on and he's like, he's just like, yeah, I'm gonna go to the gym right now. I'm like, bro, I go to the gym. Like that ain't gonna do but so much, bro, like, you're not gonna get but so much help in there. Like, you have to go home, right? You can't live in the gym. You have to go home. Sooner or later you gott got to see your family. You can't spend nine hours in the gym. You got to work like that. It can help alleviate some of the stress and stuff like that, but you have to find a healthier way to deal with it. Otherwise you're going to just keep spiraling. You know, they. They don't care. This is who am I, right? They just like, they just like, well, who's this guy anyway? So it's just like, sometimes it's just like who I am. Like, you just met this guy online, like, cool. But like, I know I'm talking about, you know, And I just tell people just like, hey, look, this is what works for me. You don't have to go to therapy once a week. I go to therapy. I go once a month. I've only been once a month for nine years.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

And I think that blows people mind because they think I've been going. I've been going more consistently than that, but it's been once a month for nine years, like, because I always feel like I have. I can accumulate enough stuff in that month to kind of get a brain dump to help me out, right? When I go talk to people, when I go talk to my therapist, like, hey, this is about. I have a list of stuff like that. Talk to my therapist, but I rarely ever get to the list.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, the last time I had a list and then I went to therapy, like, I was literally on wait to my therapist and I heard my dad had another baby or just hear rumors about it, like, that's going out the window. Like, yeah, we won't talk about today. Like, well, I'm a big brother again.

[A]

Why do you think some narcissists turn to God or pretend to turn to God?

[B]

Oh, that's easy.

[A]

Have you seen. Have you, like, heard or seen that

[B]

when they turn to God, that's the worst thing? Oh, my God. Right? That's the most triggering thing. The. The. I get the most angry when I see the fake guys. I. I hate it. So it. Because it's so easy to manipulate people.

[A]

I'm not. I'm not a religious person, and I. I'm not a narcissism expert by any means. But at the point that you're using Bible verses to defend your behavior or say, I'm getting better. That's my past. And then that you proceed to read a Bible verse, I want to throw my phone.

[B]

Yeah. And people fall for it.

[A]

Why?

[B]

How.

[A]

How do you fall? How do other people not see what we see?

[B]

Because people have been conditioned in the religious circles to be forgiving and accepting. Right.

[A]

So because they turn to God now, we should forgive them? Because they're doing the work.

[B]

Yeah, because the work. Yeah, they're doing the work. And there's a big quotation marks around that because, like, it's easy to. Honestly, if I would, I could cheat on my wife, beat her, doing all kinds of stuff. And I was just like, you know what, God. God told me that I needed to change my life. And, like, people would fall for it. Like, just that he did it so

[A]

well, the way he said it was so believable.

[B]

I was in a police car, my hands behind my back, strapped to the seat. God told me that I got to change my life. Like, God said that. What is God? What does God sound like? Please tell me. Please describe God's voice to me. Does it sound like your voice? Does it sound like your conscience? Because that's probably. You said that, right? No. Religious manipulation is so easy. It really is. So if you want to pretend to be a good person, if you want to get more done dates, I. Literally, all you do is put dates. All you had to do is put Christian in your bio. Christian. You can be Christian. It really is easy. That's the easiest way to divert attention from yourself is to Just become religious. Like, he found God, she found. It's always, I hate it. That's why people don't go to church, because, like, there's so many fake people in church now. Just like a narcissist would. God is a dangerous narcissist because all they do is hold up a Bible. It's like, oh, here's the Bible, upside down, right side up. Whatever the case may be, all you got to do is fake being religious. And that works. It just works a hundred it. I hate how, I hate how effective it is.

[A]

I, I, it's so effective, and it's infuriating.

[B]

It makes me so, I, I literally, I'd be on, like, threads and stuff. Like, I'd be like, if I wasn't black, I'd be turning red. I promise you, I would be.

[A]

I'd be like, am I allowed to laugh at that?

[B]

Even you being able to check the temp right there, it just shows that you're hyper aware of things right there, right? It really, it just makes me, I don't know, it's just like a lot of things in the world made me mad. But that's one of the things, like, I hate when I see people do horrible things or get an accusation or something happens, and then all of a sudden they just somehow miraculously turn to God. And that's why people believe it because, because you turn to God, right? That's why they got better. They turned to God. And people be like, how dare you judge this person? And you're the bad person for just not believing them. You know, I've read the whole Bible. When my wife left, I was, like, kind of lost. I started gardening. I was trying to find something. I started finding stuff to do. I was like, I'm already going to the gym. I'm going to the gym, Work. Like, I'm already doing it. Like, what else can I do? I started gardening. Gardening. And I had downloaded the Bible app, right? I was doing real estate full time, so I'm always in the car. And I was like, I'm still listening to the Bible. So I listened to the Bible literally every single day for like six months. I've read the whole Bible. And I was just like, that's why I hate when people use it as manipulation. Because, like, are there lessons that you can learn in the Bible to make you a better person? Yeah, but, like, when people started using it, it's just like, you know what, you know, Moses killed somebody, right? So who cares if I cheated? God forgave Moses. He Killed somebody. Somebody I can't cheat. Can you tell me? You said I had a mind where I was like, but when you were

[A]

listening to the Bible during that time when you were lost, you didn't, like, run to your wife or to your family members and say, like, I'm a man of God now.

[B]

Oh, no, no. Because I. I know there was. I say my mind shifts to manipulation immediately. When I'm trying to get something, my mind automatically goes to, how can I manipulate? Like, my wife left. I was just like, you know what? I'm gonna take my ring off. I'm gonna wear it on my necklace. So when she comes over, drop my son off, she's gonna see it, knows we still connected. I was just like, I had it on my necklace. I was like, when she pulled out, like, that's dumb. What are you doing? I'm literally talking to myself. I'm like, this is so stupid. Just put it up. And I just put in my shirt. I'm like, okay. You know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Cause I have. I have. Like, that's how my. That's. To this day, that's how I have to work. Like, my. My first thought is going to be narcissistic. How does it serve me even still. Even still to this day? Like, how does it serve me of me? And I have to kind of override the natural process of my mind to make. To make conscientious, good decisions.

[A]

And then for narcissists, do you. I mean, do you have empathy? What does empathy look like for you?

[B]

So I feel like. I feel like this is what I learned over the years. I actually had to be on a TV show in Australia a few years ago, right?

[A]

Oh, that's cool.

[B]

And there was a psychologist on set, and he was talking about the two form two different kinds of empathy. He said, there's emotional empathy, empathy, and there's cognitive empathy.

[A]

What's the difference?

[B]

Emotional empathy is what. What an empath would have. Like, if you're crying, I feel you.

[A]

I feel like four times a day. Lee.

[B]

Yeah, see, that's too much.

[A]

I cry so much, my boyfriend doesn't know what to do with me.

[B]

I was like, oh, goodness. But it's like, like, my wife, we're watching movies, she was like, oh, my God, I'm crying. I was like, what? What? I was like, how? Like, that's emotional empathy. You connect. You can connect to the. The feelings of other people. You feel it, you understand it, and you vibe with it. Cognitive empathy is like, I can see that you're crying. I Understand it. I might not connect to it, but I get it. Right. And because I get it, I can empathize with you, I can understand you and I can be there for you. Like when you have a narcissist that typically, typically has a lack of empathy, they don't do either.

[A]

Oh, they don't do. Okay. I thought you were going to say it was more like cognitive.

[B]

I do more cognitive empathy. Okay, right. I still have, I have a certain level of emotional empathy, but I do more cognitive empathy. I get it. I got you. Come here. Like when I'm watching a movie or my wife or something and she starts crying and she'll be trying to hide her tears sometime, cuz she, she. I was just start laughing like what? I like what? Explain this to me. Like, why are you, like, why? Why? How does this affect you so deeply right here?

[A]

Yeah. Why does it. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, I, I know. Like, I remember the one movie, I think that made me cry. I remember watching like Marley and Me.

[A]

Oh my God, of course you're gonna cry.

[B]

Oh, you didn't. Yeah, no, I did. Because like when Jennifer answers like Bike Clearance Puppy, I was like, oh no. You know, they got me. Right? But most times it's just like, I'm just like, okay, I got you. You know, man, it just like it doesn't affect me so deeply. And I just think for me, I don't, especially being diagnosed now, I don't try to get hung up on it. Right. I usually look at it as a deficit, but now look at it as kind of like a superpower. Because like when I'm helping people and they're crying, I don't get in the weeds, you know, I mean, I can still, still remain cognizant and still help you through and talk to you through what you're going through.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And still empathize with you at the same time. Like that, that really does suck that you went through that experience. This, this what, this might be why they did this to you.

[A]

But so then how does your relationship work with your wife? Like, because if she's looking for a certain level of like empathy from you or like support or reassurance, how can you provide that with. Also.

[B]

So I, I feel like the emotional empathy that I do have is kind of reserved for the people that are closest to me. Like for her, my kids and stuff like that. It's kind of like, like you, the further you get away from the center, the less it is, you know, And I play and this typically helps me out because like, I, I, I, I've like all of the thousands of stories that I've heard, I've heard some horrible, horrible stuff for sure. You know, I've heard like, I've had people cry 30, 45 minutes through this stuff. I was like, oh, my goodness, like, I can imagine going through this and it just like sucks to live through this. You know, I've helped people just through that as well. Being able to just remain calm, home, feel what you're going through, empathize with you, you know, and just like keep it moving, you know, I mean, because you don't, I don't like people sitting in it. I think sitting in it sometimes get you stuck sometimes. Right.

[A]

Do you think that narcissism affects every single way that you think? Like maybe even opinions or political views or. You know what I mean?

[B]

No, no, it, no, it absolutely does. Right. Because I feel like, because certain things happen, happen, it bleeds into every part of your life, right? Even like religiously, politically, emotionally, it, it bleeds into every single part of your life. There's not any, you can't separate it, right? Because it's like at the forefront of your brain. It's kind of like the brittle world. The brittle water filter on this, on the faucet, right? The water is going to go through and it has to come through the filter. So the narcissism sometimes is the filter is at the top of it. So it's coming through that right there. But I can choose whether or not to drink it, you know, so it really, it really does because, like the, yeah, especially environment that we in now because, like, I feel like, yeah, definitely the narcissism just affects the political landscape and things like that and all the, all the other good stuff.

[A]

What about your view on women? Does it affect that?

[B]

I think most narcissists are, you know, have more than a tinge of misogyny. Right.

[A]

Would you agree that you are.

[B]

No, I, I have, I've had, I've been there, yeah, 100%. But because I've been. Most of the people I talk to are women, I have started to empathize with women more. Right. I sort of hate men. I was like, God damn, we evil. You know.

[A]

Thank you. You heard it here first.

[B]

Like, it just had my mind. I was like, God, we were doing some, I've talked to men too, that women do evil stuff, but, like, different kind of evil, though. Yeah. I was like, what the, you know, and I just feel like I've been able to unpack that A lot over the years, you know, and just my mentality and how my thought process and things like that of my. My prejudgment of people based on certain situations and stuff like that. I've learned how to unpack that more and come from. Come from a different space, because I feel like that has helped me out a lot, too.

[A]

Yeah, I could see that.

[B]

Most narcissistic men I talk to. Absolutely. Are they misogynist? They cannot stay. They hate when women. But they're not necessarily homosexual, they're not necessarily gay, so they don't value. So they need women, but they hate that they need women. Right. So it's just like. It's a. It's a crazy process that you go through. It's like, I can't stand you because my mom was. You know. But then I also don't like men, so I need you, but I hate you. So they take out their anger, their frustration on their mother, on you. You get it? So it really just kind of depends. Some people, when you get an intuitive woman, some narcissistic man, they see it as a child challenge. They want to break you. So sometimes when you also. Sometimes if you kind of go into the political landscape, you get a lot of conservative, narcissistic men that want to break a liberal woman, Right? They want to break you. They want to get you to undy your hair blue, Right. I'm going to make you blonde again. Watch. You know, they go for that type of stuff right there. So that's why you see a lot of times in the political landscape, not necessarily opposites attract, but it's kind of like the opposite wants to break you, Right. Why don't you go for the woman who likes what you like? No, I want to break somebody because it's power, it's control, it's manipulation. The more I'm able to change you. Y' all see what she used to be. Look what she's like now. And they like that right there. It's. It's a badge of honor to break someone rather than. Rather than. Like, it's a badge of honor to go out there and hunt rather than get the value. And this gazelle's leg is broken. I could just savage it. But, like, I want to chase that. That one. Right? So that's what it happens right there sometimes.

[A]

Do you ever get, like, backlash or criticism from people saying, like, everything that you're doing on social media and, like, talking about narcissism goes against what narcissism is?

[B]

Yeah, every day.

[A]

That's interesting because I feel like you having a social media platform and talking about narcissism in some ways goes hand in hand with narcissism because you're also sort of feeding the ego with the following, with the videos, with the views. So in one way way you're prime example of narcissism. And on the other hand it's like, okay, you being self aware of it, but I think also too maybe your IQ or your intelligence level might also make you more self aware. And so there's like.

[B]

So it's kind of a double edged sword in this situation because when I first started my social media stuff, like it wasn't even about like when I first got on Tik Tok, I have a whole separate Tik Tok account, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like I started in 2020, in January. I was just doing comedy and skill skits, right? And I was like blowing up over it. I was getting millions of views just doing skits and comedy. But I always wanted to talk about the mental health. So I was like, I'm gonna try to squeeze this in here. When I post a mental health video, people like, what the hell is this? Back to being funny. I'm like, so I gotta start my whole page. So when my wife left, like when she came back, I was like, I'm gonna document my journey, you know. So May 19th of 2020, like I started the mental illness like TikTok account and I just like, hey, look, I'm here to tell about my journey about narcissist personality disorder. Get more people into therapy. This is the journey. So I never knew it was gonna blow up. I just literally, listen, I wanted this to be my journal, my diary or whatever. But then it just kind of started taking off and people used to ask the question, like, does this feed your ego? I was like, yeah, a little bit. It did, right? Because. But then I started talking to my therapist about it, like, like it's never going to be enough. Like you can never have enough followers. Like when I hit it, when I hit a million, I'm like, I don't have 2 million. You know, it's always what's next. Even when I graduate from college, it's like, what's next? Right? It's like moments of happiness. So I say, happiness is fleeting. You can be happy, but you're always chasing something more. Like, my goal in therapy is to find more the ability to be more in the moment as opposed to you can always want more, you always seek more, right? Like I can always go Back to school or whatever. But being happy in the moment is what's important. I feel like that's the central focus of me in therapy now because, like, no matter how many followers I get or whatever the case may be, it's never gonna be enough. My mind is always gonna be like, okay, what about 3 million? You know, my mind shifts. It's always, what's next. I want more. So I learned how to kind of take it in stride now. So now, no matter where it's at now, it's kind of like, okay, I'm cool. Where it's.

[A]

Said it fascinating for me to have you in front of me because I've only ever had negative experiences with narcissists. But following your journey on social media and when you first popped up on my TikTok and stuff, and even you being here today, I'm like, you really humanize narcissism and just people that could live with it that we don't realize or it's not always people that are evil, that are narcissists, like, that they don't. I think that narcissism gets a really, really negative stigma attached to it. But it does. It's not always that. That way. I think that so many people just experience horrible people that happen to have narcissism as well. Like, they would probably be a horrible person whether they were narcissistic or not.

[B]

I think the stigma most times as well deserved, right? It's kind of like sometimes when you. When you have a sect of most of the people that fall into this category doing bad things, then it kind of like the statement is well deserved, deserved. But it's just like, there's always gonna be outliers, right? So when I started my journey, there were absolutely people. My first video, if you scroll all the way back to the beginning, there were absolutely people. Like, this is dangerous. You're gonna get people hurt. I'm like, how am I gonna get people hurt? Talking about my mental health journey. So I didn't understand. I didn't know about narcissistic abuse or toxic relationship dynamics. I was just talking about going to therapy. I was like, see, this is why men don't go to therapy. Y' all attacking me. I was going back and forth, but then this one woman reached out to me. Her name was Tina. And she reached out to me, and she was online. She was like, hey, look, you have the opportunity to do something great with this. And she kind of started explaining to me certain things. I was like, oh, I didn't know, this was that bad. So I started doing more research on it. And then when I was responding to questions, the more research I did, the more I understood what people were going through and people's perspective on it. It helped me just kind of like, oh, I get why you're angry at me. You're not angry at me. It's kind of like you. It's kind of like you work for a company, right? It's kind of like when I used to work at Blockbuster Video Video. People were coming in yelling about the late fees. But it wasn't me that made the late fees. I'm just the representative for the company, Right. So I'm the representative for narcissism. So people will yell at me instead of the, you know, like, don't shoot

[A]

the messenger shirt on.

[B]

Yeah, I got the narcissist shirt on. So they're like, you're a narcissist, how dare you? You know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So they'll say things to me that they wish they could have said to their partner.

[A]

Can narcissism show up in friendships and other relationships besides romantic partners?

[B]

Absolutely. Relationship, friendships, parents, co workers, bosses, it's everywhere, like the same. And this is why when I first started, my central focus, because on my ignorance, right. My central focus was to get more narcissists in the therapy. Because if I could help one narcissist, that to me was like curing a disease, right? It's kind of like I helped this one person. It spreads, but it's a trickle down

[A]

effect because with that, one person is connected to 12 other people. So that's 12 other people that you're actually directly impacting.

[B]

Yep. Yeah. So that's why that was my thought process in it right there. So I can help one narcissist, you can say their husband or their wife, their kids, their co workers, maybe their parents, whoever they're dealing with. I used to have that mindset, but it's very difficult to help a narcissist, Right. Because you have to be in that mindset to want to receive help. You have to be. It's kind of like you just imagine a narcissist walking around in it. You know, that armor and those shields that people used to wear back in the day to the knights, like, just imagine walking around, clinging around in an armor. You have to be willing to take the armor off and show your heart a little bit, you know, to be vulnerable at least a little bit in order to receive some help and some constructive criticism or to take accountability. Most people don't want to do that. They want to keep their armor on. They'll actually put another, another sheet of armor on. Like this is not enough coats. I'm put another coat of armor on. But I think for narcissists, accountability is like, I probably when I, it really does feel like when I have to truly apologize, it feel like, it feels like physical pain. I have physical reactions. Like I get chill bumps. It feels like somebody stabbing me. Yeah. 100. But I have to go through, I have to go through that because I know it's the best, right? Even I'm apologizing to my kids or somebody said to them or my wife or my brothers or anybody I've said something wrong to. My friends are like, look man, I gotta, I feel it spiking up, right? Like I'm about to turn into a werewolf. I'm like, oh God. You know, you know. But I have to override that instinct to shut down. Otherwise because if I shut down, it'll sit with me. If I don't get it out, it's going to come out sooner or later that beautiful butterfly in that bottle is going to die and it's going to come out as anger towards somebody who doesn't deserve it. Like if I don't want to apologize to my kids, I'll hold it in and that anger might come out on my other kid or my wife or somebody that I work with or something like that. My partner, my friends, somebody else is going to get it that doesn't deserve it. And like, why are you yelling me? I just asked you something question. Oh, that's why, you know, it's something that has happened weeks ago or months ago that I didn't, I suppressed that has came out as anger that shouldn't be anger. And I feel like that's one thing I want when I'm talking to narcissistic men, women, whoever, right? I tell them, I look, you have to be willing to sit with the shame. The one exercise I've done in therapy that helped me the most, my therapist, like if you, you, if Shane was sitting beside you on that couch right now, what would you say to it? How do you, she's like, first of all, how do you visualize shame? I visualize shame as this like 15 foot Goliath giant, right, black with a club that's walking in ready to bash it with something. She's like, you, you have a shame monster. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, that's why you're afraid of, that's why you exchange that's why you try to get away from it. That's why you try to avert or divert attention from shame, humanize it. So if shame was another man sitting beside you or a person sitting beside you, what would you say to it? And that just changed my perspective on it because it's kind of like shame is like the monster under the bed. Like when you were a kid. Like, you look under the bed, you see those red eyes. Oh God, it's a red eyes under the bed. But if you shine a flashlight, it's a cat, right? It's not a monster, it's a cat. We're making it something bigger than what it is. You have to be willing to realize that shame. I personally, it's like a shame as a person instead of a monster. And it helped me to deal with it because I'll deal with a man, I'll deal with some shame. I deal with a person. But a monster you don't want to deal with. Right. You try to get away from it. So I feel like most narcissists are not willing to see it as a person. They're so afraid of it because they visualize it as something that's going to kill them. They'll die if they admit that they're wrong. I would rather, I'll take this to the grave, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you're willing to be. So you're willing to blow up your entire life rather than you admit that you are wrong or take accountability. I've been in that position before. I'm. I'm saying sorry. All you do say sorry, you keep everything together. So blow it up. You try. You hitting the button, you hitting the self destruct. It's not blowing up. You know, you're trying to blow it up, but it just doesn't explode. It's hope for everybody. Right? But you have to put the work in regardless of what's going on. It's just like for me, narcissist is not borderline or not. How much work am I willing to put in? Even if I wasn't a narcissist, I was still going to have work to do because I had some stuff going on. Right. It's just like something's going on in here. They're like, if I don't deal with it, I'm going to be by myself or in another relationship that I might not be happy in or just like, I might just be bouncing around and just like look at myself in the mirror and just like, you know, see the reflection again, like Wait, was you moving again? Anyway, I might start going crazier, so. So I, like, feel. I feel like I've kind of transformed my ego, like you said, into something that serves other people, including myself, right. It still has to. I still have to get something from it. But, like, I get happiness from helping people. Like, there's people I Talked to in 2021, when I first started doing my, like, my calls and stuff like that. They were, like, completely broken, beat down, desolate. I talked to one woman. She got. She was, like, literally talking to me in her car on Zoom. She had a black eye in strangle box her neck. I was like, what. What happened to you? Are you good? She's like, no, no. Yeah, he's in jail right now, but I'm trying to build him out. Like, whoa.

[A]

Wait, so how do you help a victim of narcissism?

[B]

So people typically come to me for. For the perspective of a narcissist, right? Why are they thinking this? Why did they do this? Why did this happen?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Right. And because I've had so much experience helping survivors, I can also help guide them out of certain situations. Right? So, like, people I've talked to that, like, have just been starting on their journeys, like, have been, like, going from, like, how can I get this? How can I fix my husband or get him back from his. With his mistress? I'm like, you know what? I think this person about to kill you, you might not be fixing. You're gonna die. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I'm more direct. I understand that certain things I need to say to people to break their mental state sometimes to get them to change their direction. Right. And one woman I helped, now, she, like, she became like, a huge coach in narcissistic abuse, like, helping thousands of people. I'm like, goodness gracious. You know? And I was just like, I'm appreciative of that because, like, it's kind of like a healing tree. I helped you, and now you can

[A]

help other people too.

[B]

I help Lisa, and now Lisa's helping thousand. Like, look at that. You know, they might not even like me, but they love her. I'm like, so that's what I get joy out of. I do get joy out of helping people like that. You know, just watching that. Cause I'll get on my stories while one time, and I've been clicking through Instagram like, you got married. Yay. I love it. I promise you. I do. I. I love that experience right there. That really does bring me happiness and joy right There to. To help. Assist people to get to a certain point. And even, like, the narcissist that I help and I see them getting the therapy and they're doing their own thing, I'm like, that's cool. You know? Yeah, that's super cool.

[A]

How can someone help. Help a narcissist on their healing journey?

[B]

So there. Right there. That's tough right there. Because first they have to want to get help.

[A]

Okay? So, like, we'll say maybe a narcissist who is starting to come around to the idea that they may be a narcissist and they need help and. And wants to get help. And maybe they're, you know, working on either getting help or they have entered therapy. What. You know, what can their partners or their kids or their friends do?

[B]

So it's a very unique space to be in right there. Because if they're actively seeking help, like, that takes time. You have to ask yourself the question, like, how much time are you willing to invest in this right here? Because most people already have time invested into it, right? They have kids. They're like, you know what? I already have been here 10 years. Like, I can wait a few months. You know, stuff like that. But if you're just getting to know somebody and they're like, you know what? We're. We've been dating with two months, and we're already in marriage counseling, couples kind of like, wait, what you. Two months in. I'm like, you know what? You might. You know, but typically, if they're making behavior alterations, if they're changing their behaviors, because that's all you can ask for with a real narcissist, right? They're not gonna. It's not going to go away. But, like, if they're changing their behaviors, they should be able to take a little criticism, a little pushback, right? Not necessarily you just going crazy on them, like, just unleashing on them. Like, they should be able to take things that they've done wrong and just say, hey, look, damn, it was wrong. I have messed up. I have done that. Most people have too much history to start a new. Because when I. When I. Me and my wife did. We did a couple count, a couple sessions of marriage counseling. And my marriage counselor said, you can't start from scratch. Y' all been together for 10 years. There's too much history. How can you start over from scratch with 10 years? You can't forget stuff, so you have to. The stuff that has. The stuff that. The. The long, lingering stuff that's been on the table. You have to talk about it because you can't talk about it. There's no history. There's no hope.

[A]

Okay, that makes sense to me. Where can people find you? Where can people sign up to talk to you? Where can people find your socials? Like what? Where can people find you?

[B]

So it's mental illness everywhere, right? Civil Instagram is mental illness with three S's. Some woman just. She will not get my name on Instagram. Yeah, shout out to her, though. She posts once, like, every six months. She post once every six months. She's cool, though. She. She people. I guess people message her so much that she put in her bio. Not the software narcissist. Oh, my gosh. She. So it's mental illness with three S's on. On Instagram, but it's mental illness everywhere else. And you can find my. My coaching, my courses, my one on ones, [e-mail].

[A]

okay, perfect. Thank you so much for being on Barely Famous.

[B]

No, thank you for having me on my very first podcast in person. So I appreciate it.

[A]

So exciting.

[B]

Sa.

[A]

Okay, guys, we're back. You asked for it. And we're delivering. Killer is going on tour. We're super excited for the fatherless behavior tour. 23 cities, three countries, all in one summer. And you guys can check out tour dates and see if we're coming to a city near you on killlowry.com. and if you want early access to information and announcements, head over to Patreon because you might get it before everyone else. Pluto TV has thousands of free movies and TV shows.

[B]

You swear if I'm lying, I'm dying.

[A]

This is the mindset.

[B]

Free.

[A]

This is the mantra.

[B]

Free.

[A]

This is the mindset. Mindset. With movies like Titanic, Dreamgirls, and Gladiator,

[B]

why are you not entertained? And TV shows like Survivor, SpongeBob SquarePants, the Fairly Odd Parents, and Ghost. Pluto TV is always free.

[A]

Huzzah. Pluto TV stream now pay.

[B]

Never. One of the biggest threats in your life are the ones you don't see coming. We may be raising the first generation who fall in love with a chatbot before the real person. And what if the way you think isn't even your own? If I make you think something is popular, I can get you to accept it. Real conversations, real tackling the issues shaping our lives. You're feeding this to your family. It could happen to your kid. I've been to way too many funerals. The Dr. Phil podcast, available now on YouTube and all podcast platforms.