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- [00:00]
Amanda Knox
Introducing Instagram Teen Accounts.
- [00:02]
Caitlyn Bristow
A new way to keep your teen.
- [00:03]
Amanda Knox
Safer as they grow. Like making sure they always have their seatbelt on. Alright, buckle up.
- [00:08]
Caitlyn Bristow
Good job.
- [00:09]
Amanda Knox
New Instagram Teen Accounts.
- [00:11]
Caitlyn Bristow
Automatic protections for who can contact your.
- [00:13]
Amanda Knox
Teen and the content they can see.
- [00:15]
Caitlyn Bristow
This new year, why not let Audible expand your life by listening? Explore over 1 million audiobooks, podcasts and exclusive Audible originals that'll inspire and motivate you. Tap into your well being with advice and insight from leading professionals and experts on better health, relationships, career, finance, investing and more. Maybe you want to kick a bad habit or start a good one. If you're interested in learning how to master your emotions and hearing scientifically backed advice for using your emotions as a tool, may I suggest Shift by psychologist and bestseller author Dr. Ethan Krause? Trust me, listening on Audible can help you reach the goals you set for yourself. Start listening today when you sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.com wondery that's audible.com wondery this is a mini meditation guided by Bombus.
- [01:09]
Amanda Knox
Repeat after me. I'm comfy. Comfy.
- [01:12]
Caitlyn Bristow
I'm cozy, cozy. I have zero blisters on my toes.
- [01:16]
Amanda Knox
Blisters. And that's because I wear Bombus the softest. Socks, underwear and T shirts that give back. One purchased equals one donated. Now go to bombus.com wondery and use code wondery for 20% off your first purchase. That's b-bas.com wondery and use code WONDERY at checkout. Welcome to the show. Things are going to get weird. It's your fave villain, Kale and you're listening to Barely Fam. Today on the podcast we have Amanda Knox and I'm so excited to talk to you about your new book.
- [02:03]
Caitlyn Bristow
Thank you for having me.
- [02:04]
Amanda Knox
So I read the entire book and I have to say that I I vaguely knew who you were. Okay. But this is my first real impression of you. I vaguely heard about your case and I was kind of glad after reading the book that I I didn't prejudge you.
- [02:18]
Caitlyn Bristow
Yay.
- [02:21]
Amanda Knox
And I just wanted to know. So I had so many questions and initially started forming, forming questions on like a document and I was like, oh, I can't wait to ask her this. And then everything was pretty much answered in the book. So I thought that was really nice. And as you can see, I tabbed so many things. Some of the things that are just, I think a lot of people can resonate with, but so much of it I did tab to bring up today.
- [02:42]
Caitlyn Bristow
Awesome.
- [02:43]
Amanda Knox
I was thinking this Morning while I was getting ready. Like, what do you want from this interview? Because I want to tell your story in the way that you want to be heard, the same way that you describe in this book. You don't want to be remembered as the girl accused of murder. And so I don't want to perpetuate that if I don't.
- [02:59]
Caitlyn Bristow
Sure, sure, sure. Yeah. I mean, I think the big thing that I hope from this interview is honestly that people will read Free my search for meaning, because, like, there's this impression that, like, my story is encapsulated in this. What this bad thing that happened to me, and now it's over. And the end, my story's over. And that happens to a lot of exonerees. I'm not the only one who has had the experience of the worst experience of your life being so utterly defining. And then the minute you get out of prison, you eat your first hamburger. I call it the hamburger moment, because it's always like a McDonald's hamburger. They're like, oh, look, they're eating a McDonald's hamburger for the first time after 20 years in prison. Yeah, the end. And what really is the case is that a whole human drama unfolds behind that curtain where that is for the first time, the person living their life and, like, discovering who they are and answering that now what question, after having been forced to survive in an insanely unfair and. And traumatic experience. And so what I like to say is that, you know, I've written a book before this. I've written a memoir before this called Waiting to Be Heard. I'm very proud of it. I wrote it at a time of my life where I felt like I needed to react to this huge, incredible narrative that had been made about me without any sort of input from me. And it was in reaction to that that I was explaining here. This is this terrible experience that happened to me. And this is. This is what it looks like from my perspective to be on trial for this crime. This book is not that. This book is what I've done in response to that. This is. If Waiting to be Heard is reactive. This is a book about how I've lived my life proactively and how I've been really human, because it is not like, you know, look at me and how good I am. It is like, oh, my God, look at all these mistakes I made because I am still processing this traumatic experience in my lived life and how it's had repercussions that have been unexpected. And so it's so Such a huge part of my. Of who I am and how I have tried to grapple with the existential problem that we all face, which is, who are we? What is our role in the world? How do we try to make the world a better place and leave it better than how we found it?
- [05:31]
Amanda Knox
Right. And in the book, you. Actually, there's a quote where you talk about how telling your story is your. It's trauma, but also it's healing.
- [05:39]
Caitlyn Bristow
Yes.
- [05:39]
Amanda Knox
And I. I definitely feel like you. I got the message in the book. Do you know what I mean? And I think you did a great job. I. There. There are certain parts in this book where I literally wrote in the margin, crying, sobbing, chills. And I just. And it's. And. And you talk about in this book how you don't have to go through a similar situation as somebody else to be able to empathize and relate to them. And that was something that I really resonated with because there were so many things that you describe. I was on Teen mom, you know, like, I wasn't accused of murder or. Or any serious crime. And so I. You know, but I still related to so many things that you said in this book in trying to find myself. Which is what you're describing.
- [06:18]
Caitlyn Bristow
Exactly. Yeah. And I think that was a big takeaway for me because, you know, again, like, when I was writing my first memoir, Waiting to be Heard, I felt utterly estranged from the rest of humanity and that I constantly had to explain myself to people. And in this book, this is where I've realized that, oh, my God, this insane story, very not unique, but very uncommon experience that I went through, has resonance with everybody's human experience. And I slowly came to realize that and realize that, no, I was not estranged and ostracized from the rest of you, Hani. I belonged. And in fact, my experience had an important role for helping other people to understand their experience as well, because ultimately, the questions that we are all facing are the same.
- [07:04]
Amanda Knox
When you've done work with the Innocence Project, whether it be Italy or anywhere else, have you talked to other exonerees about that experience? About. And. And the realization that you relate to more people than you even know or more people can relate to you than you know.
- [07:18]
Caitlyn Bristow
Yeah. I mean, I think that is a really defining factor of a lot of exonerees, is we have felt like the world put us at a distance, and we were. We were. We were called monsters, and we're trying to, like, reclaim our place in humanity again. And that involves an exchange of Mutual trust. Because it's not just that we want the world to trust us, we want to trust the world again.
- [07:43]
Amanda Knox
Right?
- [07:44]
Caitlyn Bristow
And so, like, finding that place and those. And those moments of connection and realizing that our experience is not just our own is a way that we can not just, you know, feel better about the world and learn to trust each other again, but also try to get people to understand what are the causes of wrongful convictions in the first place? What is this impulse to judge other people that we have deep inside of us, and how do we confront that in a way that we are being responsible to each other?
- [08:13]
Amanda Knox
Have any. Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. Have any outlets ever reached out to you and apologized to you for your portrayal?
- [08:22]
Caitlyn Bristow
You know what? Actually, one person has ever apologized to me, like, directly. No, I take it back. Two people. David Spade apologized to me because he, like, cracked a joke about me. Like, there was this one point where I was potentially going to write, like, an advice column for the local newspaper. Just, you know, like, hey, some. Some advice. As someone who's been through a whole hell of a lot of, like, here's some things I've learned. Here's some advice. And his show, he cracked a joke about how, like, it was going to be called Dear Stabby. And it was just like a very unkind, like, really dismissive joke towards me, right? And I. I don't even know how it, like, came up. I think I might have told a comedian friend of mine or not. I don't know how he, like, I don't know even if he found out that I was hurt by it, but, like, he DM'd me on Instagram to say, hey, I realized that that was a really shitty joke and I'm sorry. And I was just like, damn, David Spade. Thank you. And then another person I actually interviewed on my podcast was a young woman who was a model, or is a model, still is a model, but, like, back in the day, very young model who had been hired by Vice to pose as me in a. Or in an Amanda Knox themed photo shoot where there were various different scenes, but a lot of them were, like, sexily posing in a prison cell. Or, like, at the one. The big. The main photo was her holding a big meat cleaver covered in, like, blood. And. And she, you know, it was just like a random job that she had. It was very last minute. She showed up and was posing, and then only years later did she realize, like, oh, my God, what was I a part of? And of course, she was not the Person who had orchestrated and come up with a theme of this shoot. Like, she was probably the least responsible for that shoot, but she was the face, and she felt horrible that, like, her image was used to portray me in that kind of way. And so she reached out personally again on Instagram. Social media isn't all bad to just say, like, I'm really sorry. And then, like, I had her on my podcast to discuss what that experience was like for her.
- [11:01]
Amanda Knox
Had you seen the photos?
- [11:03]
Caitlyn Bristow
Oh, yes.
- [11:04]
Amanda Knox
Oh, you did?
- [11:04]
Caitlyn Bristow
I had seen the photos. I had seen the photos years before and been hurt by them, but I never thought that anyone would reach out to me and, like, explicitly apologize.
- [11:14]
Amanda Knox
Right. I mean, I. It feels to me after reading this, like, I know that you are. After reading this, you know, you want to be kind and have sort of empathy for people and try to understand them where they are, but I don't know how you continue on without being angry. Do you ever go back and forth with. With that.
- [11:34]
Caitlyn Bristow
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. No. I think a big misconception that I think people have is that if you are angry, you're only angry, or if you are, you appear not angry, then you do not experience anger. Like, that is not the case. And I think if you were to interview a lot of exonerees, you would see that, like, there is this level of, like, weird peace about them. Like, a lot of. Not all of us, but a lot of us have this very forgiving, generous attitude towards the people who have harmed us. And I think that's in part due to the fact that our trauma was not just a trauma of an instant. Right. It wasn't just the moment we were wrongly convicted and sentenced to, in my case, 26 years in prison. It was the fact that it just kept going. You are still in a. You wake up and you're still in a prison cell where you shouldn't be. And years go by where you live with this trauma that keeps asserting itself and keeps reopening the wound every single day.
- [12:39]
Amanda Knox
Right.
- [12:39]
Caitlyn Bristow
And there's only so much that, like, there's only so much anger you can hold while you surviving an ongoing, protracted, prolonged trauma. And so you learn to hold the trauma and also hold on to what you need to survive that protracted trauma. And what you need to survive often is not anger. It is a sense of, like, acceptance and acknowledgment of the imperfections of reality and other human beings.
- [13:12]
Amanda Knox
You described how you got to that place in this book, but even as I was reading it, that was Something that I. I couldn't relate to that because when I think you talked about putting yourself in someone else's shoes, I was trying to do that.
- [13:23]
Caitlyn Bristow
Yeah.
- [13:24]
Amanda Knox
And the place that I got to is just anger. Like, I don't. And I think that you're incredibly brave and strong for. For having that mindset and getting to that place. Because I. Putting myself in your shoes, I really feel like I would be so angry all the time.
- [13:37]
Caitlyn Bristow
I mean, here, here. Here's the thing. The anger is there. It's just not the only feeling. Right. I. I'm still angry, you know, like, it's. Because it's an angering situation. It is an injustice. And so I experience anger to this day. I experience hurt to this day. Because there are still ways that I am continue. This protracted trauma is not over for me. Right. Like, I just got a little while ago, I just got reconvicted of the lesser crime in this case. And you know, they say that I was sentenced to three time served. And like, that's bullshit. And like, I'm still fighting an ongoing drama of being the girl accused of murder and the girl who's guilt adjacent. And like, all of that is still happening. And so there are still triggers.
- [14:28]
Amanda Knox
Okay, I want to talk about Quince right now, because this year I'm treating myself to lux upgrades I deserve with Quince's high quality travel essentials at fair prices. I've gotten so many things over the years from Quince, and my most recent purchase was the Cotton Fisherman throw. I did get it in the color olive. It's a 50 by 60 blanket. And I'm obsessed because that's the color in my bedroom. I also got the cotton slub curtain, and I did the 48 by 108 because I'm gonna put them in my dining room. I'm obsessed. They're lightweight. I did do the curtains that let light in the room, but they do have a blackout option as well. Quinn's also has lightweight European linen styles from $30, washable silk top and comfy lounge set. So if you're like me, I live in loungewear at home. They also have premium luggage options and stylish tote bags to carry it all in. And the best part is Quince Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They partner directly with top factories. So Quince cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us. Obviously, Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and use premium fabrics and finishes, which we love. So for your next trip, treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from quints. Go to quince.com famous for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q U I n c e.com famous to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com/famous Mochi Health is here to help.
- [15:53]
Caitlyn Bristow
You start your weight loss journey with caring, personalized support. Meet one on one with board certified obesity doctors and registered dietitians who truly listen and understand your unique needs. Eligible patients can access affordable GLP1 medications delivered right to their door each month. No insurance, no problem. Mochi Health accepts FSA and HSA, making care accessible and affordable. And with 24. 7 customer service, you'll never feel alone on your path to better health. Get started with Mochi Health today. Take the free quiz@joinmochi.com and use code AUDIO40 at checkout for $40 off your first month of membership. That's join mochi.com with promo code AUDIO40. Even if, say I had been acquitted and everything was actually, actually over and everyone agreed that like I had nothing to do with it and I never had to explain myself to another human being ever again, that doesn't mean the anger goes away because you are still experiencing. I love this image of grief that I once heard that it's, I think a poet did described it as carrying a box that you can't really quite get your hands around. So you're constantly, always like awkwardly positioning yourself to carry it and then you think you have it for a while but then your arm gets tired and so you have to move it around again and hold it in a new way. And I think that is this, that is true about life because we are not static human beings. In every moment we are changing. Becoming a mom forced me to hold that grief in an incompletely new way. And so what is, what inspires that emotion of anger is again these renewed triggers. But at the same time, it's not the only feeling that I feel. I feel sadness. I feel gratitude. I feel gratitude that I'm alive that I have the opportunity to speak to someone like you who's bothered to find out who I am.
- [18:02]
Amanda Knox
Don't make me cry.
- [18:03]
Caitlyn Bristow
And, and I'm, I'm so lucky that I get to have a family. I mean there's so many ways that I am so, so lucky.
- [18:15]
Amanda Knox
But I wish that people would give you the chance. And I got frustrated for you. It was really hard to read certain aspects because you know, I went. I know that you've done other podcast interviews. And so I went to go look the. After I read the book, I went to look, and I'm like, I just do tissues. I'm sorry. Like, I'm like, I get. So. I got frustrated because I could feel the pain and the conflict that you have gone through and what you're still going through. And so I. I got frustrated when I was, like, reading the comments because I'm like, you guys have no idea the internal struggles that you're. You're gonna face for the rest of your life. And, you know, I do feel like everyone owes you something. Well, and I know that you don't feel that way necessarily.
- [18:55]
Caitlyn Bristow
Right. I mean, we all owe each other something. Right? Like, I don't pretend that I'm the only person who has ever had a shitty thing happen to them, you know?
- [19:04]
Amanda Knox
Right.
- [19:04]
Caitlyn Bristow
You've had a shitty thing happen to you. I just don't happen to know about it.
- [19:08]
Amanda Knox
Right.
- [19:08]
Caitlyn Bristow
Kind of. Everyone knows about the shitty thing I had happened to me. And that's a. That's another weird thing that you can either be really upset about or really grateful for, because I never have to pretend that someone doesn't know the shitty thing that I've gone through. They know it, and I don't have to have the burden of wondering if I should hide it or tell it or not. So it's just kind of there. It's just there for everyone to see and to scrutinize if that's what they feel like they want to do and that. But it's an opportunity for me to build a bridge with another human being, and they can decide to walk that bridge or not. And if they do, great. If they don't, okay. Like, this is life. And so I feel like, yes, there is anger, there is grief, but there is gratitude because there is always, always, always opportunity within the pain.
- [19:58]
Amanda Knox
Right.
- [19:58]
Caitlyn Bristow
You know?
- [19:59]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. I wrote chills in the margin here where you talk about meeting Antoine Day and Josh Keezer, and they told me. They told you their stories.
- [20:08]
Caitlyn Bristow
Josh just texted me yesterday. Yeah. Because we obviously remain good friends. And I owe Antoine a. A call. Thank you for bringing him up, because we're in the Exoneray band together, and so I have to talk to him about what's going on at the Innocence Network conference this year. But anyway.
- [20:24]
Amanda Knox
No, but that's incredible. I mean, when you speak of gratitude, I mean, getting to know other people that have. That share some of the same experience as you has to be somewhat Cathartic, right?
- [20:33]
Caitlyn Bristow
Oh, totally. Yeah, absolutely cathartic. And also so grateful that I get to encounter people and have something in common with people that I never would have met or had any reason to like, have a relationship with.
- [20:44]
Amanda Knox
Right.
- [20:44]
Caitlyn Bristow
No, like, that's what an amazing thing.
- [20:45]
Amanda Knox
In part of the book, you talked about how certain scandals and things like that are painted in a way that you brought your own self up and it, and it's, you know, the Amanda Knox scandal or Amanda Foxy Knoxy, or you brought up Monica Lewinsky.
- [21:04]
Caitlyn Bristow
Yes.
- [21:04]
Amanda Knox
And I thought that was so interesting and I never really had that perspective that we're erasing what Bill Clinton did.
- [21:10]
Caitlyn Bristow
Yes. Or what Ken started or whatever, you.
- [21:13]
Amanda Knox
Know, like, and I, there's. I was so angry and hurt by that because truly it was, you know, all of this was about Meredith's death. Right. And Rudy.
- [21:25]
Caitlyn Bristow
Yes.
- [21:25]
Amanda Knox
And he gets off the hook and nobody really remembers him. I had to google him because I was like, I don't even actually know who committed the murder. Right.
- [21:31]
Caitlyn Bristow
A lot of people don't know who committed the murder. A lot of people don't know that he is being investigated. Right. Actually, the investigation's over. He has been indicted with sexual assault of another young woman. So he's going on trial for having sexually assaulted another young woman now that he's been out. So like, nobody knows that because nobody cares about him because he's not the name and face associated with his own crimes.
- [21:56]
Amanda Knox
Because drama sells or what? Like, what do you think it is?
- [22:00]
Caitlyn Bristow
I mean, I think people like simplifying things. So, you know, they want one name and one face associated with one story. And the, the media and I think the, the prosecution in the case realized that the most compelling narrative was focused on me for, you know, the, the reasons, the reasons. And as a result of that, like it's, it's simplifying it for the audience. Like they, if you throw too many words and adjectives and things to remember about a story, it's not going to remind people of what, like, of what the product is.
- [22:40]
Amanda Knox
Right.
- [22:40]
Caitlyn Bristow
Like it's Target, it is Macy's, it is Amanda Knox. Like, it is a product. So if you think about it as a product that someone is selling you, then it makes sense that it has its own little trademark, its own little logo. Like that is what is being sold to people. And. But the problem is this is a real life tragedy that has many victims and the way that it has been packaged as a product is a misrepresentation of that reality.
- [23:08]
Amanda Knox
No. 100%. And I was. I mean, just reading it, I was like, these are not characters in a movie. These are not characters in a book. These are real human beings that are affected for the rest of their lives. And, I mean, I don't even know. I don't know how someone is able to get through things. Some of the things that you've been through, I really don't do. No. Right. Because what else I wrote on the side here, bring this up. You wrote, I desperately wanted to merely be judged for who I actually was, for what I'd actually done. But I wasn't even sure how much blame rested on the rest of the world and how much rested on me. I none rested on you, in my opinion.
- [23:49]
Caitlyn Bristow
Yeah, I've slowly come to that realization. So this part of the book that you're talking about is me going grappling when I. Especially when I first came home with the amount of blame that was being put on me for my own wrongful conviction. So there was this sense that, like, even if I wasn't guilty of the crime, I was guilty of being thought of as guilty. So people were sort of attributing to me blame for the bad thing that had happened to me. And again, like, this is something that you see all the time in wrongful conviction cases where there's this sense of, okay, fine, you didn't do it, but, like, you were acting like a total spaz. Like, what else were we supposed to think? Or, you know, what else? Like, this eyewitness thought it was you. So, like, you know, what else were we supposed to think? And it's. And there's this, like, shocking amount of unwillingness for the people who are charged to hold people accountable for crimes, to not hold themselves accountable. And there's escape scapegoating of the. The wrongly convicted person, as if they are responsible for everything that happened, when really we are the least responsible and we had the least amount of power for what happened.
- [25:09]
Amanda Knox
Sort of like that model that did the pictures, Right?
- [25:11]
Caitlyn Bristow
Exactly, exactly.
- [25:13]
Amanda Knox
So how do we change that? Like, you know, because I. I consume media, I scroll on TikTok, I read headlines, but I also, you know, I have the podcast, and I want to set the record straight. How. How do I, as a consumer of all of this and. And in just the general public, how do we change that?
- [25:29]
Caitlyn Bristow
That's a great question. So there are a couple of things that people can do. One is become a little more literate about how media is made. How is this product that is being sold to you made? And what Are the incentive structures behind that product that is being sold to you? Is it an oversimplification of reality? Is it a story that is meant to trigger your primal impulses? And is that, is that true or is that not true? If you are like, one choice people have to ask themselves is, do I want to be consuming this product? Just because it's being shoved down my throat doesn't mean that I actually have to consume it. Do I want to be consuming this product? And if I do want to be consuming this product, which is totally fine because like, I'm not going to like judge somebody for being interested in true crime. These are real human life stories that have a, that are important not just to the people who are directly impacted, but they have like this, this resonating effect on society. Like it makes sense that we care about crimes even if they happen across the world, right? Because it is a human dilemma of like how, how we are hurt and how the institutions are supposed to support us. So it makes sense to want to care about that. But if that is true, then know why you are consuming that product and then make sure that you are consuming the right product. You know, like, if you want, if you want to get healthy, you don't just listen to McDonald's when they say that their hamburgers are healthy for you. You, you go and you learn what's healthy for you, right? And so get, get the things that you need from the products that are being offered to you and don't just sort of take the easy way out and just be like, oh, this is the thing that's happening to me. That's what it is, right? I think that would be a big factor.
- [27:17]
Amanda Knox
Let's talk about hair right now, because you should love your hair. And I'm at the point in my hair phase where I don't know if I want to keep it short or if I want to grow it out. But either way I'm going to be taking Nutrafol. And Nutrafol is here to help you with your hair growth. So their whole body approach to hair health works from the inside out. And you can start loving your hair again all over again, right? This year. There's nothing holding you back. Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand trusted by over one one and a half million people. You can see thicker, stronger, faster growing hair with less shedding in just three to six months with neutrful. Everyone's root causes of hair thinning are so different. I don't know what Mine is maybe surgery, maybe the baby's postpartum, I don't really know. Neutral has multiple formulas that are tailored to give your hair exactly what it needs to grow throughout the different stages, like postpartum, like I was talking about menopause and even for different lifestyles like plant based diets. And a lot of supplements rely solely on ingredient studies. But Neutropol clinically tests final form formulas to ensure their efficiency. And in a clinical study, 86 of women reported improved hair growth after taking Neutrophil. Women hair growth supplement for six months. Physician formulated with 100 drug free ingredients, Neutrophil supplements support visibly thicker hair, stronger hair from within by targeting root causes, hormones, aging, nutrition, lifestyle metabolism and as they evolve throughout a woman's life. Nutrafol is here to help. So start your hair growth journey with Neutrophil. For a limited time, Neutrophil is offering my listeners $10 off the first month. Subscript description and free shipping when you go to neutrophil.com and enter the promo code famous find out why over 4, 500 healthcare professionals and stylists recommend Neutrophil for healthier hair. Nutrafold.com n u t r-a f o l.com promo code famous that's nutrafold.com promo code famous when I was growing up on reality TV, it was always I would get really upset about some of the edits and they would say we have to make this digestible for the audience. We have to make sure that when this is edited it makes sense to the viewer. Even if it's skewing the story and how it actually happened, it has to make sense to the viewer. And I would imagine that that's sort of the same way that yeah, makes.
- [29:34]
Caitlyn Bristow
Sense to the viewer is a very patronizing way of saying like I need to make this black and white because otherwise the audience is going to be too dumb to appreciate the nuance.
- [29:46]
Amanda Knox
Right. And fitting, you know, a circle into a square or what the prosecutor did to you. And fitting, fitting the evidence into his theory.
- [29:56]
Caitlyn Bristow
Exactly.
- [29:57]
Amanda Knox
So. And that's really sad because I did read and I don't know how much you want to talk about it. We don't have to talk about it if you don't want to. But you know, you reaching out to your prosecutor and holding him accountable, but also giving him a chance to explain himself.
- [30:11]
Caitlyn Bristow
Totally. Yeah. I think the thing I wanted to I again, I really hope people will read this because it is a complex, like layered, it's a complex development in my story of like, reaching out to my prosecutor, developing a relationship with him, and having this dialogue that was not just about the case.
- [30:31]
Amanda Knox
Right.
- [30:32]
Caitlyn Bristow
But also was about the case and how it has, how it has developed and evolved over time. Like, that is a really interesting story and it's a fascinating even just like, I mean, it should be in like a psychology case study.
- [30:47]
Amanda Knox
The whole time I was like, what is going on? And you really didn't have a whole lot of support in, in going to talk to him and developing this relationship. I know that you mentioned that your husband was overall supportive, but, you know, your parents.
- [30:59]
Caitlyn Bristow
Oh, yeah. Everyone else thought I was crazy.
- [31:03]
Amanda Knox
I was a little bit like, I don't know that I would do this just because I would. I would be so angry. But.
- [31:08]
Caitlyn Bristow
So here's the thing though. Like, someone told me, asked me the other day, what do you do when the whole world's against you?
- [31:16]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. What do you do?
- [31:17]
Caitlyn Bristow
What do you do? And I said, well, over the years, I've discovered that the only thing that can sort of stop someone in their tracks, and by in their tracks, I mean in the tracks of their just like already developed thoughts about you is to surprise them.
- [31:38]
Amanda Knox
But how do you do that?
- [31:40]
Caitlyn Bristow
You do what no one would expect you to do. Reach out to your prosecutor. Everyone expected me to hate him and run away from him for the rest of my life.
- [31:49]
Amanda Knox
I hated him for you.
- [31:51]
Caitlyn Bristow
And you know, it's tempting to hate and run away from people when you've been victimized. And I felt like that wasn't enough for me because I had unanswered questions. But also I was a part of me, sort of a rebellious part of me was like, what can I do that everyone doesn't expect me to do?
- [32:13]
Amanda Knox
Right? But when he still wouldn't apologize, how do you get to the place where you can be okay with that?
- [32:21]
Caitlyn Bristow
I have. I actually have a good analogy for this. So in life, you cannot control, right? You cannot control what's happening in your life. So I explain it like, there's a difference between going shopping and going thrift shopping.
- [32:37]
Amanda Knox
Okay?
- [32:37]
Caitlyn Bristow
When you go shopping, you have a list of things that you need. You go to the store, you get, you find them where you expect to find them. You get them and you take them home. I think a lot of people think that life is like shopping, but life is actually thrift shopping, thrift shopping, you go. And if you have a list of things that you need to get from the thrift store, you are inevitably going to be disappointed because they may or may not have the things that you need in your size. So, like, if you go into a thrift store and you're looking for that specific little black dress that you saw in the catalog that's going to fit you perfectly, you are going to walk away from your life disappointed, okay? But instead, if you go to the thrift store with an open mind and are ready to. To receive whatever it is the thrift gods have in store for you. A mushroom lamp, for instance, then you are going to find yourself pleasantly surprised by. And. And you're going to find your life an enjoyable experience because you are open to discovering things that you needed that you didn't know you needed. And so, for me, as a very curious person, I'm very, very curious. Instead of having expectations of people, I try to give people the opportunity to pleasantly surprise me.
- [33:58]
Amanda Knox
Okay.
- [33:59]
Caitlyn Bristow
And to, like, allow myself to know that there are certain needs that I have, but that those needs can be met in unspecified ways. So what do I need? When I ask my prosecutor to apologize and to say he was wrong, what do I need there? Well, I need him to recognize that I am a human being that was misunderstood and hurt as a result of that misunderstanding. And even though he is to this day incapable of saying I was wrong and I'm sorry, he is capable of saying many other things that. That touch upon that need that I have, that deep down need. And I don't want to give them away. So read the book.
- [34:51]
Amanda Knox
Definitely read the book.
- [34:53]
Caitlyn Bristow
But do you know what I mean?
- [34:55]
Amanda Knox
Like, I do, but I also. Like, are you. Are you okay with where it stands today with your prosecutor? Where Your relationship? Or do you still have a relationship with him today?
- [35:05]
Caitlyn Bristow
Yeah. Yeah.
- [35:06]
Amanda Knox
Are you texting me?
- [35:07]
Caitlyn Bristow
Happy Valentine's Day.
- [35:08]
Amanda Knox
He did.
- [35:09]
Caitlyn Bristow
Ye.
- [35:09]
Amanda Knox
See? I don't know. I don't know how it's so complicated.
- [35:12]
Caitlyn Bristow
It is complicated. It's not just a.
- [35:14]
Amanda Knox
Like, it's not black and white. Yeah, no, it's so not black and white. So are you okay with where your relationship stands with him today? Do you feel like you got what you needed?
- [35:25]
Caitlyn Bristow
Do you know that bluey episode where bingo. That bluey episode where bingo is pressing the yes, no button at the same time. Yes, yes, no.
- [35:34]
Amanda Knox
Okay.
- [35:34]
Caitlyn Bristow
And there's a great Zen saying. I'm. I'm a. I practice Zen is a great Zen saying where, you know, a. A Zen monk went to his master and said, you know, master, you know, basically, like, how am I doing? And his. His master said, you're perfect just the way you are, and you could use improvement. And that's exactly what it is. I mean, that's exactly what reality is. It is this paradox of if you really, really sit with things as they are, you realize that they are okay no matter what's going on. If you really just, like, sit with it, it's okay. And also, it can use some improvement.
- [36:17]
Amanda Knox
That's how I feel about your prosecutor. I don't want to mispronounce his name, so.
- [36:23]
Caitlyn Bristow
Oh, yes. Yeah. Giuliano Mignini.
- [36:26]
Amanda Knox
Giuliano. Okay. I. I feel like I was pretty close. I silently read it, but I was close in my head. You know what I mean?
- [36:31]
Caitlyn Bristow
Yeah. I also mispronounced Hermione's name. For years was. I thought it was Hermione.
- [36:37]
Amanda Knox
Okay.
- [36:37]
Caitlyn Bristow
Until, like, book four, when J.K. rowling specifically spelled it out.
- [36:41]
Amanda Knox
Is she French? Like, is that a French name? Her mind.
- [36:43]
Caitlyn Bristow
No, I think it's a Greek derivative.
- [36:46]
Amanda Knox
Oh, that makes sense.
- [36:47]
Caitlyn Bristow
From Hermes.
- [36:48]
Amanda Knox
Okay.
- [36:49]
Caitlyn Bristow
I don't know.
- [36:50]
Amanda Knox
I also wrote implicit bias here. I'm. Before I was wrongly accused, I never gave the criminal justice system a second thought because I belong to a class of people who didn't have to.
- [37:00]
Caitlyn Bristow
Yes.
- [37:00]
Amanda Knox
And I feel like that's one of the things in this book that so many people can resonate with. Even not sharing your same experience. Absolutely.
- [37:07]
Caitlyn Bristow
And that's why. And that's the thing that I hope people come away from it as well, because when I. When I look at my role, like, okay, so life gives you whatever it is that it gives you, and you get to decide what you're going to do with it. And one of the things that life gave me was the opportunity, like you said, to connect with other people who had gone through this experience, but whose stories never made it to me because I was living in my little suburb in Seattle reading Harry Potter and not, like. And it wasn't in the news and nobody was talking about it. And one of the. I will never forget one of the first things that someone told me, which was like, you know, thank God you got wrongly convicted, Amanda, because if it wasn't for you, this little white girl from the suburbs in Seattle, college educated, who got wrongly convicted, no one would believe that it was real. And that, like, to this day, gives me chills because it's an unfortunate reality, but it's true. And I think that many people didn't really empathize or even know about the wrongly convicted person's experience until they heard about it through me. And so, like, when I look at it, that is, like, it can Be just a sad thing. That's true. Or it can be an opportunity. It can be an opportunity for me to build a bridge between that world and the world that didn't know about it.
- [38:41]
Amanda Knox
Right. I. I think that yours was. I. Like I said, I vaguely knew who you were before I. I didn't do a deep dive or anything prior to, you know, reading your book and everything, but I had heard that you were wrongly convicted, and I then after that, heard about, you know, like, Kalief Browder. I don't know if you know who he is. That was a tragic story. And Greg Kelly. I don't know if you've ever heard.
- [39:06]
Caitlyn Bristow
I don't know about Greg Kelly. What's his story?
- [39:08]
Amanda Knox
His story is that he was wrongly convicted for child molestation and.
- [39:12]
Caitlyn Bristow
Which is, like, one of the worst things you could ever be accused of.
- [39:15]
Amanda Knox
I mean, and he was a college. He was gonna go to college and then potentially be drafted to the NFL. And so huge story. And it ended up the. I don't. I guess the. Not the suspect. What is the word I'm looking for?
- [39:30]
Caitlyn Bristow
The.
- [39:31]
Amanda Knox
The person who actually did it was right in front of their face. And you're just like. And. And they go on to be criminals in other ways. And you're like, where? Open your eyes. What is going on here? That is the story that's like.
- [39:43]
Caitlyn Bristow
And that's one of those tragic consequences that I think people don't really appreciate about wrongful convictions is like, in the vast majority of wrongful conviction cases, an actual crime occurred and they got the wrong person. Which means that the person who did do the crime is somewhere out there.
- [39:59]
Amanda Knox
And possibly committing more.
- [40:01]
Caitlyn Bristow
And very likely committing more crimes. Exactly.
- [40:04]
Amanda Knox
And that's heartbreaking. I. When I googled Rudy and I saw that he was. He had. I mean, this wasn't his first no crime.
- [40:11]
Caitlyn Bristow
No. He was not an unknown entity. He had. He had a history of breaking and entering. He hadn't murdered anyone yet. But as we know, the progression. The progression, the escalation, it just continues. Yeah. Imagine an app designed to make you use it less. Seems counterproductive, no? Well, apartments.com's instant alert feature works exactly that way. Instead of scanning rental listings a million times a day, simply set and forget your search to whatever you're looking for in a place and let apartments.com do the rest. From pet friendly apartments to balconies to in unit ACS, Apartments.com's powerful search tools let you know when the perfect combination of features you're seeking is listed. So you don't have to power through rental descriptions one by one. With more rental listings than anywhere else. Apartments.com's instant alerts mean you can spend less time online looking for the perfect place and more time doing you apartments.com the place to find a place.
- [41:10]
Amanda Knox
So now you work with the Innocence Project. What other advocacy work do you do?
- [41:15]
Caitlyn Bristow
So, so the Innocence Project was, is based in New York. There are lots of Innocence Projects. I think this is a really good distinction and I think a lot of people have a misunderstanding that like there's one Innocence Project, there are actually many Innocence Projects. I am on the board of something called the Innocence center, which is an entirely separate innocence entity. But they're all like innocence organizations. They all do the same thing and they're based in different places. So the Innocence Project here in New York primarily works in New York, although because they're such a big and, you know, well established organization, they often give assistance elsewhere like that. You know, a recent case that the Innocence Project here in New York was working on was in Hawaii, this like, horrible murder of this young woman named Dana Ireland that for 25 years they had the wrong people. And then they finally found the, they finally found the person who did it using like genetic genealogy. Anyway, it's long crazy story. I'm actually, I, I'm hosting a podcast about it that's going to be coming out later called 3. So look out for that.
- [42:20]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, what. Can you just mention what your podcast. I know it's Labyrinth, but so, yeah.
- [42:23]
Caitlyn Bristow
So my podcast is called Labyrinths. It is produced and host with me and my husband Christopher Robinson. And we talk about, we talk to people. It's not just criminal justice related. It's the idea being again that we all have an interconnected reality which is we all at certain points in our life feel lost and we have to find our way again. So I talk to people about those kinds of experiences, but I also occasionally guest host other podcasts and one of one of those that I'm doing is called Three. It is with Audio Chuck and the Crime Junkie Crew. And we are looking into the case of Dana Ireland and the discovery of who actually committed the crime and the subsequent wrongful convictions of Ian Schweitzer and his brother and another man named Frank Pauline.
- [43:11]
Amanda Knox
And I haven't heard of these cases. And that's so heartbreaking because I know I was talking to somebody yesterday about how people on the Internet, they don't even have law degrees or investigation, you know, experience, but they can help. And if there are more Eyes on a case. You know, it's possible that they could make a break or they could do something helpful.
- [43:30]
Caitlyn Bristow
Absolutely. And I, you know, a great example of this. Have you ever seen Don't Fuck with Cats?
- [43:34]
Amanda Knox
Yes, yes, yes, I saw that.
- [43:35]
Caitlyn Bristow
So, like, the manpower, like, one of the, one of the major cause of wrongful conviction is just lack of resources that investigators have to pursue cases. And one of the great ways that people can assist with a case is by donating that manpower. And that goes for, you know, innocence projects. Anything. Like I remember there was an incredible amount of. Of work that people did for my own family while I was being wrongly convicted. Amazing things that they were doing that they didn't have to do, like just cataloging all of the evidence, translating court documents, because it was all in Italian. Some people were donating hours just translating court documents for my family. Other people were database specialists. And so they were taking this influx of crazy information, just organizing it. Like, even just the. Of the process of organizing all of the stuff that goes into a case is incredibly overwhelming. So having someone with a specialization in that can really, really help people. Or you're a media specialist, you could give, you could donate media training to somebody who's coming out of a wrongful conviction and, and wants to tell their story but doesn't know how. Like, you know, I'm going to be doing a panel at the Innocence Network conference this year that's specifically about media training and what to keep in mind when you want to tell your story and you want to partner with somebody in the media world to tell and what outlet you might want to use.
- [45:01]
Amanda Knox
That's really interesting because I would imagine you were sort of thrown into media, you know, coming actually the entire time, not even just coming out of prison, but. And so you probably had no idea how to essentially conduct yourself in an interview or how to.
- [45:15]
Caitlyn Bristow
Now, I was media traumatized before I was media trained.
- [45:19]
Amanda Knox
There's a lot to be said there because, I mean, it sort of perpetuates the, you know, any theories that are. Are clearly outrageous. But I mean, you're like, oh, well, she, she looked a certain way or she adjusted herself a certain way, or she didn't shed a tear. So she's guilty, obviously.
- [45:33]
Caitlyn Bristow
Right.
- [45:34]
Amanda Knox
You know, and she's like, traumatized. I mean, I would love to talk to an exonerate and help them with media training. I don't know that. I don't know if I'd be a good fit for it, but I would at least try, you know.
- [45:43]
Caitlyn Bristow
Absolutely. And you never know, because, like, every exonerate is different. I think that's another thing to remember is we're all different people. We're not the same person.
- [45:50]
Amanda Knox
Right.
- [45:50]
Caitlyn Bristow
You might, like, maybe you try connecting with one person and it's not a good fit, and you try connecting with another person and you guys hit it off. Like. Like, yeah, you know, there's. We're all human beings, and I think the thing that people underestimate is, like, how much was taken from an exonerate and so how much there is opportunity to. To give.
- [46:09]
Amanda Knox
Right.
- [46:10]
Caitlyn Bristow
And there's like, so much potential in. Within just like, there's so much potential within every one of us. Like, really, like, giving someone an opportunity to, like, access parts of themselves that they may might not even know about.
- [46:21]
Amanda Knox
Right.
- [46:21]
Caitlyn Bristow
Is. Is an incredible gift.
- [46:24]
Amanda Knox
When you started with the Innocence Project, was the. The innocent Italy's Innocence Project or Innocence Project of Italy. The first time that you developed a relationship with the Innocence Project.
- [46:34]
Caitlyn Bristow
And in fact, while I was going through everything that is the Italy Innocence Project didn't exist. Oh, it formed after my. Everything that I went through.
- [46:44]
Amanda Knox
Because of what you went through, or just a coincidence?
- [46:47]
Caitlyn Bristow
I mean, I wouldn't say it was only because of me.
- [46:51]
Amanda Knox
Sure.
- [46:52]
Caitlyn Bristow
There are lots of wrongful convictions, and I think, you know, the. So Luca Luparia and Maria Martina Cargosi are the two people who are the only innocence people think Innocence Project. They imagine like 100 people working on it. It's a lot of times it's like one or two people who, like, start an organization and they just, like, do a bunch of pro bono work. And so. So that's the case in Italy. It's Luca Luparia and Martina Cagosi who are working on any, you know, like, all of these issues. And it's not just working cases, it's also working legislation trying to, like, change the laws to make it possible to overturn wrongful convictions. So, like, that is all work that they are doing pro bono and by themselves. So anybody who can offer, like, some support in that regard is great. So they didn't exist while I was going through everything. And I didn't know anything about the Innocence Project. As far as I knew, I was the only person who was. Who had ever gone through this experience like that. I literally was like that ignorant. And it wasn't until I came home and I connected with other innocence organizations who reached out to my family to support my family.
- [48:01]
Amanda Knox
Okay.
- [48:02]
Caitlyn Bristow
Then I realized the true scope of not just what I had been through, but, like, this institutional, global Human problem.
- [48:11]
Amanda Knox
I didn't realize that there was an Innocence Project in any other country. I just thought it was in California, in the United States.
- [48:17]
Caitlyn Bristow
Yeah, no, it's. It's. So the first ever Innocence Project began here in New York, which is where we are, in case anyone's wondering. But then from there, different organizations started popping up around the country, and then either there were attorneys here who are working on Innocence Projects who decided to bring them out of country. A good example of this is Justin Brooks, who was, like, solely responsible for there being any Innocence Projects in all of South America. He, like, just because. Because he has connections and he can. He speaks Spanish and he has all these connections with South America. He just brought that work to South America and helped establish organizations in different countries there.
- [49:01]
Amanda Knox
Okay, amazing.
- [49:02]
Caitlyn Bristow
Yeah, exactly. And he is, again, is on the board of the Innocence center, the project that I am, like, directly affiliated with. But then, you know, other countries just were inspired by the work of the Innocence Project and. And decided that they wanted to form their own, like, again, individual people.
- [49:22]
Amanda Knox
Right.
- [49:22]
Caitlyn Bristow
One person, like, one of my favorite people is Bill Oberle of Alaska, again, single guy, who decided that instead of retiring from his lawyer job, he was just going to fully commit himself to pro bono innocence work work in his retirement by himself in Alaska.
- [49:42]
Amanda Knox
Just because he's a good person.
- [49:43]
Caitlyn Bristow
Just because he's a good person and he believes in it and he could do it. So now he has, you know, some people working with him, but, like, he was by himself, and it's not like, you know, he's not a fundraiser, he's not a politician. He's a lawyer. He just. He knows the law.
- [49:59]
Amanda Knox
Right.
- [50:00]
Caitlyn Bristow
And so he just plugs away. And a lot of times, it's just this like. Like plugging away day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year. And 80% of the time, you don't win. 80% of the time, even with help.
- [50:16]
Amanda Knox
From the Innocence project.
- [50:17]
Caitlyn Bristow
Yeah, absolutely. 80% of the time, the Innocence Project is taking on cases, and there just isn't a way to help this innocent person.
- [50:25]
Amanda Knox
Why?
- [50:27]
Caitlyn Bristow
They've exhausted all their appeals. The DNA was not saved, so it couldn't be tested. There are a million things that can go wrong, and in a lot of these, especially older cases, where they've already gone through all of their appeals process, and there just isn't a process to. There isn't a hearing that they can have that would reconsider their case.
- [50:48]
Amanda Knox
How many appeals are allowed? I mean, it depends by state or case.
- [50:53]
Caitlyn Bristow
Yeah. Yeah. I would Say that like, you know, there are technical. Like, there are things that happen on the state level, there are things that happen on the federal level. So, like, there's. It's. It depends case by case, where it is, what's going on. But, yes. So, like, there. There reaches a certain point where the United States government said, you had your chance. Too bad. And that's why, actually, Mark Godsey, who is a former prosecutor, now head of the Ohio Innocence Project, is attempting to change laws internationally to make innocence a human right. So the idea. Because right now, like, if you are innocent of a crime, you are not guaranteed freedom. You're not. If you. If you can prove you're innocent, it doesn't mean that you are guaranteed to be freed or found innocent. All that you are guaranteed is a fair trial. And if you have exhausted the process of a fair trial, tough nuts. So what we are trying to do or what he is trying to do, and just sort of by we, I mean the Innocence Movement, we are trying to establish a human right to. If you can prove your innocence, then it doesn't matter where you are in the legal process, like, you deserve to have a chance to be freed.
- [52:05]
Amanda Knox
That's incredible. And I just. How can people, just everyday people, contribute to the. To helping something like this, like a movement like this?
- [52:12]
Caitlyn Bristow
I mean, again, one big way is to look up your local Innocence Project. So that's really key, is it's like, find what's happening locally. The best thing that you can do is, is look at what's happening on the ground where you are, okay? And then, so find those people who are doing that work locally. Sometimes it's in your state, sometimes it's in, like, a. An area like the Midwest. Innocence Project is a project because they cover, like, three different states.
- [52:36]
Amanda Knox
Okay.
- [52:36]
Caitlyn Bristow
Or, for instance, the Idaho Innocence Project used to exist, but they ran out of funding. So now a lot of the cases that the Idaho Innocence Project was working on have now been brought on to the Innocence center, which is what I work with. And so they're working on Idaho cases, even though they're based in California.
- [52:53]
Amanda Knox
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- [54:23]
Caitlyn Bristow
And so like there's a lot, like it's a little shifty, you have to do a little bit of research but like find out what's going on locally and then ask like, this is, this is who I am. This is what my area of expertise is, what I can offer. Even if it's like, I can offer a monthly donation.
- [54:40]
Amanda Knox
Great.
- [54:41]
Caitlyn Bristow
If I can offer to help read case files, like, I have some experience in that. I can, I can offer to like help you correspond with the, with the person in prison just so that you can like, I can help them keep up to date with what's going on. Like there are a million different little tiny tasks that could be that manpower would lend to so anything like that.
- [55:03]
Amanda Knox
I'll be curious to see if Delaware has anything, if you work in airlines.
- [55:07]
Caitlyn Bristow
By the way, or you work at any kind of transportation. Like someone donated their FL their miles to my family so they could more cheaply travel to Italy.
- [55:17]
Amanda Knox
I wanted to ask you about that if you don't mind your family. When I was reading the book and you did touch a little bit on your, your first memoir, but I, your just to clarify, your family moved to Italy or your mom was a schoolteacher, so she Couldn't move there. But. But somebody hosted your. Your stepdad, is that right?
- [55:37]
Caitlyn Bristow
Yes. So someone in my family, after I was arrested, was always in Italy for the entire duration of my imprisonment in Italy. So we rent for the first three years. We rented or we. They. My family rented a tiny apartment on the outskirts of Perugia, and someone was alone there, sitting around, waiting to come see me for one hour a week.
- [56:05]
Amanda Knox
Did they work while they were there?
- [56:06]
Caitlyn Bristow
Well, it depends. So, like, depending on what their job was. My stepdad, who spent the majority, he was the one who spent the most time in Italy. He works in tech, so he could do his work remotely.
- [56:18]
Amanda Knox
Right.
- [56:18]
Caitlyn Bristow
My mom, who is a school teacher, could only go when she was on break. But, you know, she's a school teacher, so she has the summer off, so she could come see me in the summer. She could see me on spring break, she could see me during winter break. That's when I would see my mom. So it really depends on when people could get time off of work, but.
- [56:33]
Amanda Knox
I would imagine that became incredibly expensive because you still have a mortgage or rent to pay in the United States, and then you have, you know, the. But I know how much it costs to fly overseas, and then you have multiple people, and then you have siblings. Right. And. And then lawyer fees on top of all that. And then you use the proceeds from your first memoir to pay your family and your. Your legal team.
- [56:53]
Caitlyn Bristow
Yeah.
- [56:54]
Amanda Knox
Which I thought was incredible for you to do.
- [56:56]
Caitlyn Bristow
I thought I was incredibly lucky to be able to do.
- [56:58]
Amanda Knox
I'll cry right now. I will cry. So when I was telling the girls this morning, I was like, why am I so emotional about your story?
- [57:08]
Caitlyn Bristow
Because it's fudgeing emotional.
- [57:09]
Amanda Knox
That's why I was telling the girls, like, you know, how I felt like your hands were tied. But you did everything you could.
- [57:19]
Caitlyn Bristow
I mean, that's all we can do.
- [57:20]
Amanda Knox
You know, but you didn't deserve any of this. And so.
- [57:24]
Caitlyn Bristow
And neither do any of the things.
- [57:27]
Amanda Knox
Right, Right. But I just. I thought it was incredible. But then I had so many questions because I'm like, how. How is that possible that your family could, you know, be there every single week? And I read that in the book, and. And it was like, well, I mean, people could go into bankruptcy doing that. You know what I mean? Just trying to be there to support you. And I also, which was so weird to me, is that I had never heard of your family supporting you during this entire time. None of that was part of the media headlines. None of that was, you know, in the research, it was. There was a lot of things that, you know, I told you after I read, I googled and couldn't find anything about the family support and how in this book you talk about you. You grew up with a very happy childhood and. And none of that was mentioned and it wasn't talked about that you, you know, had a sibling and you know, you gu. And a tight knit family and you were with your oma and like all of this. And so I just. If it can happen to you, it could happen. And you know, so many of us don't even think twice. So you said that. But so many of us don't think twice about the fact that it could happen. And. And your stepdad I thought was really incredible. And I was thinking about how incredible that relationship must be for you with your stepdad to have been willing to do that.
- [58:33]
Caitlyn Bristow
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, he stepped up. He was. He went into dad mode.
- [58:37]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. You know, oh my gosh, it made me emotional because I'm like, you know, know, your family really banded together for you.
- [58:43]
Caitlyn Bristow
Yeah. And like, especially considering that they're like, I had sort of grown up with like, my mom's over here and my dad's right here and they're very close.
- [58:50]
Amanda Knox
Okay.
- [58:51]
Caitlyn Bristow
But they don't really mix because like, their breakup was not sure, was not consensual, we'll say. And so like, there was this like, understanding that like, here's my mom's world, here's my dad's world. Also, culturally, they were very different. My mom was born in Germany and so I had a very German upbringing. You know, growing up eating rouladen and svetchkinodel and all that. Like, that was mom's house. And then dad's house was like Hamburger Helper and hot dogs, you know, like Mr. All American. And so that was like a really interesting way to grow up because it, it sort of infused in me this like, deep, deep knowledge that the world has many cultures and many ways of being and they're all cool, they're just different. But they like, without question, immediately banded together.
- [59:40]
Amanda Knox
Your biological parents.
- [59:41]
Caitlyn Bristow
My biological parents, to save me. Like, put, like, this is how you do parenthood. Like, my parents are so dope because, like, whatever their, like, individual, personal, like, doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Like, it doesn't matter. I'm honestly honored that you are willing to be emotional with me because, like, like, it's emotional for me, you know, like, and it, I mean, it taught me so much about how to be A parent today, like, it just doesn't matter what all of my is. It is I am there, I am for her, I am for my son, I'm for my daughter. Like, no question.
- [60:24]
Amanda Knox
So sort of to switch gears a little bit with you saying that your, your mom and dad kind of banded. They did band together. Not kind of. They banded together for you to save you. Has that sort of shifted the dynamic now that you. Totally, it has. So, like, does everyone get along?
- [60:40]
Caitlyn Bristow
I mean, in the way that a family gets along? Yeah, but like, yes, in the way that. In the sense that like now we can hang out with each other and, and in ways that we didn't before. Just because, like, we've trauma bonded in a, in a new way. And that's great. Like, there's an openness now that, that wasn't quite there before. There was this feeling before of like I had two separate families and it doesn't feel that way anymore.
- [61:09]
Amanda Knox
It feels.
- [61:09]
Caitlyn Bristow
It's a united family that is just big and complicated and full of history.
- [61:16]
Amanda Knox
Layered.
- [61:16]
Caitlyn Bristow
Yeah, layered.
- [61:17]
Amanda Knox
But you would want that for your own kids, right? You have two kids of your own and you, you want them to feel that.
- [61:22]
Caitlyn Bristow
I really, really appreciate you bringing up my family.
- [61:25]
Amanda Knox
We could talk about them more if you want.
- [61:27]
Caitlyn Bristow
Well, in the sense that, like, I think that people. Another sort of misconception, I think that people have about wrongly wrongful convictions is that like, they only ever happen to the person. That is the person going to prison. Like that, that is the one person who is being impacted by this wrongful conviction. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no.
- [61:44]
Amanda Knox
Well, you said in the book, I mean, you have three sisters, I have three younger sisters. And you missed four years of their lives.
- [61:53]
Caitlyn Bristow
And not just them, like my cousin, like my aunts. And like you, if we're talking about like that, like core. Yes. I missed, like, my youngest sister was nine years old when I went to prison and she was 13 when I got out.
- [62:07]
Amanda Knox
So much happened.
- [62:08]
Caitlyn Bristow
So much happens in that period of time.
- [62:11]
Amanda Knox
In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't feel like four years is a lot, but when you're reading, when I was reading your book, I was like, no, four years is. I mean, especially with siblings, I mean, four years can make a world of a difference.
- [62:21]
Caitlyn Bristow
Absolutely. Or like, I remember my cousin coming to visit me once. So my family also is very tight knit. So I grew up like very close to my cousins. And because I'm the oldest of all of them, like, I was constantly babysitting them, taking Them out places like, you know, I was taking my cousin to the zoo constantly, and I loved it because I'm obsessed with the zoo, even though it's like some of them aren't ethical. But actually the one. The one in Seattle is ethical, so we're great.
- [62:43]
Amanda Knox
Don't go to the one in Madrid. Spain.
- [62:45]
Caitlyn Bristow
Okay.
- [62:46]
Amanda Knox
I recently went. Don't go.
- [62:47]
Caitlyn Bristow
Don't go. All right, noted. And I remember just, like, I hadn't seen him in years, and I hadn't really given. You know, you get pictures. Like, I was allowed to have picture, like, 10 pictures with me of my family and my cell, and I just sort of coveted them. And. And. But they're like these static images of people. And then he came. The one. Like, the one time that he was allowed to come, he showed up and he was. Suddenly. He went from being here to here, from, like, here to here, and from hi to hi. And I was just like, oh, my God.
- [63:30]
Amanda Knox
And you just didn't even expect for that to be.
- [63:33]
Caitlyn Bristow
No, I was not expecting it.
- [63:35]
Amanda Knox
No. I was just shocked because I think about my own kids and the. I mean, looking back at videos of my own kids from 9 to 13 and is. I mean, it's like, I don't. They're two different people. And so when you're. I mean, seeing people that you're close to and you haven't seen them for four years or three years even, and now it's a different person.
- [63:54]
Caitlyn Bristow
You.
- [63:54]
Amanda Knox
You. You realize how much you possibly missed out on, right?
- [63:58]
Caitlyn Bristow
And also, how much are they missing out on you? Because, like, just crying in the background. Because also, like, I think the thing that sort of shocked me, especially when I came out, was not really knowing how much I had changed and. And coming out and realizing that I was not the person who went in and. And realizing that my own family, who had been attempting to hold my hand throughout this entire experience, really, like, physically couldn't do that with me. They had not lived the same experiences as me. And so it was like we were walking on paths together, but they were different paths, and we were encountering different things along the way. And then we met up on the other side as if we had been walking this path together. But, like, I had seen very different things that they had seen, and now we had to rediscover who each other was.
- [64:58]
Amanda Knox
And I'm sure that presented its own set of challenges, because it was probably a shock to them just as much as it was to you to. To realize that.
- [65:07]
Caitlyn Bristow
Oh, and. And. And let's, like, if we're going to get really real right now. Let's also talk about how understandably there was this sensation that even though everyone knew that it was not my fault, the trauma that they all experienced was associated with me. And so there was a kind of sense of all of our lives got put on hold and all of us went through this horrific thing because of you, me.
- [65:38]
Amanda Knox
And then you feel, what do I do?
- [65:41]
Caitlyn Bristow
How do I make up for that? How do I, like, how do I. I didn't even know all the things that they were going through because I was stuck in a box. And then I come back and I'm like, oh, now my nine year old sister has panic attacks all the time. Oh, now my, my other sister, you know, she had to drop out of college and, and, and like, what do I do about that? There are certain things that I can't do anything about and that's hard. I have to give like so much credit to my sisters, especially my, my younger sister Deanna, because she was carrying so much pain as like this the sort of de facto older sister. After I was put in prison, she felt a lot of the burden of like being the older sister. And that left some deep, deep scars and that took the form of resentment towards me and it got to the point where we were really struggling. But like she came around and like re. Reconnected with me in a way that I have never, you know, talk about like someone coming around and like, like owning their own, but also ignot, like acknowledging like just seeing the world clearly and being willing to like have the grace and the gratitude and the forgiveness. Like she came to me and like I have never experienced like the kind of grace that my sister had towards me and the willingness to like acknowledge my experience that she could not have lived herself. Like my sister is incredible. I'm so proud of her.
- [67:27]
Amanda Knox
But that's the story that so many people don't have. That's, that's the side of all of this that people, they need to read about it. Would you say that you guys are closer now then?
- [67:37]
Caitlyn Bristow
Oh, yes. Yeah.
- [67:38]
Amanda Knox
How could you not?
- [67:39]
Caitlyn Bristow
How could you not?
- [67:40]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [67:40]
Caitlyn Bristow
I mean, either it destroys your relationships or it makes you stronger. And so like your hope is like, what can I do from this painful experience that's not just going to break me or break us?
- [67:52]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [67:53]
Caitlyn Bristow
How do, how do we together, like find the opportunity in the pain?
- [67:59]
Amanda Knox
Do you think that the. When your mom was instilling in you to be kind, do you think that that also your, your sister also had that in her because of your mom. And that's how you guys were able to sort of empathize with each other and come full circle for each other, you know?
- [68:14]
Caitlyn Bristow
That's a great question that I should talk to my sister about. About. Yeah. You know, I don't want to speak for her.
- [68:18]
Amanda Knox
Right.
- [68:19]
Caitlyn Bristow
You know, like. But we were raised by the same mom, so you'd think, like.
- [68:22]
Amanda Knox
Because it was. It seemed to be pretty impactful for you.
- [68:24]
Caitlyn Bristow
It was very, very, like, a very defining moment for me in my youth when my mom just sort of offhand, like, oh, you know. You know, you could be smart, you could be beautiful. But what I really want is for you to be kind. And it just, like, stuck with me making peanut butter sandwiches, you know, like, I was this tall, you know, like.
- [68:44]
Amanda Knox
Something that just sticks with you forever, and then you're therapies.
- [68:46]
Caitlyn Bristow
And it makes me wonder what I'm gonna say to my kid that's gonna stick with them forever. And it's like, I hope he's not gonna send them to therapy.
- [68:52]
Amanda Knox
No, literally, when you. When I read that in your book, I'm like, I don't know how many things I've said to my kids, and I'm like, please don't let it be the wrong thing that sticks with them, please.
- [68:59]
Caitlyn Bristow
And that. And that's the thing you don't have control over, you know, except, like, be mindful of what you're conveying, you know?
- [69:06]
Amanda Knox
And that's so hard, though, in the moment, because, like, you could say something when you're. When you're so mad or you're so frustrated and. And, oh, totally. You just never know what they're gonna remember, like, really hold on to.
- [69:17]
Caitlyn Bristow
Yeah. And I think that's where the practice of, like, meditation and mindfulness can really help because, like, you don't want to be at the mercy of whatever is the first thought that comes to your mind or the first thing, the words that are. You feel the impulse to come out of your mouth. You want to be. You want to have, like, just a step away from that, like, immediate impulse and to be able to, like, really consciously decide. Do I really want to be saying that?
- [69:42]
Amanda Knox
Right. That's me.
- [69:43]
Caitlyn Bristow
I want to be doing that.
- [69:44]
Amanda Knox
Second guessing everything. Well, we could talk about where to find your book.
- [69:48]
Caitlyn Bristow
Yes. So I guess where you find books.
- [69:51]
Amanda Knox
Barnes and Noble. Amazon. Yeah.
- [69:53]
Caitlyn Bristow
I mean, it's published by Hachette, so if you. I guess this is coming out after it's coming out, so don't pre order it. Just order the Damn thing.
- [70:01]
Amanda Knox
It comes out March 25th.
- [70:03]
Caitlyn Bristow
You can get it on Amazon. You can go to Hachette and order it or you can whatever, whatever. Check your Barnes and Nobles are gonna have it and I am gonna be popping around a few places to like. Or if you want, you could reach out to amandanox.com, leave a message. If you want, you can maybe like, I can. You can send me your book and I can sign it or send a message. You know, like, that's all things. So if you want to come and get in contact with me, Amanda Knox dot com. There's a contact form. That's where you can find anything about my work. Labyrinths. You know, all of the stuff that I. That I work on.
- [70:36]
Amanda Knox
And Labyrinths is her podcast.
- [70:38]
Caitlyn Bristow
My podcast, the Innocence center, is the innocence organization that I work with, but I also do a lot of, like, fundraising and helping work with other instance projects. So do please look into your local Innocence Project.
- [70:50]
Amanda Knox
I'm so happy that you came. Thank you so much.
- [70:52]
Caitlyn Bristow
Thank you so much. It's been great.
- [70:54]
Amanda Knox
I did not expect to cry.
- [71:45]
Caitlyn Bristow
All right, I may not be as funny as Nikki Laser. I want to pitch a series of, like, calendars where men are just crying in a therapist office or punching a pillow and working out their anger towards their dad. But I do have my moments. I actually have full conversations with the moon. Yes, I try to keep it pretty balanced on this podcast. A little fun dance between comedy therapy, self medicating. Oh, and sorry if you haven't guessed. Hi, I'm Caitlyn Bristow, host of off the vine podcast, where we like to just keep things loose and keep them raw and keep them real. Like when we have listeners call in.
- [72:19]
Amanda Knox
And give confessions and then that glass of wine progressed into me becoming a unicorn for them.
- [72:27]
Caitlyn Bristow
But we do, and I promise you this, try to keep it honest and vulnerable. So jump on the wagon, not off. Grab your favorite bottle of wine, preferably spade and sparrows, and join the vinos. Have yourself a time. The off the vine podcast is available wherever you get your podcasts. Are you looking for your next case? Pluto TV has all your favorite crime dramas streaming for free. We're gonna need some backup, which means suspense is free. Very cool. Watch CSI New York, Criminal Minds, Blue Bloods Tracker, FBI and swat. All for free. You can't outrun this. Someone is gonna pay for all this crime, but it's not gonna be you. Take care of business, fellas. Watch all the cases. All for free. From all your favorite devices. We got you. Feel the free Pluto TV stream now pay never.