B (2:27)

No, I think. And I want to be very clear, I have a great relationship with both of my fathers today. Yeah. Yeah. Because I really, you know, I, I, I want to emphasize that because the relationship with my mom is Relatively new, we. We've rebuilt. And my relationship with my dad has been pretty good for a while now. But once they separated, my dad was able to clean up pretty quickly. And I don't mean to blame my mom, but when you have just a toxic environment and you have that drug use, I think he just got into it as a result of it being, you know, so close to him.

A (2:57)

Did you have siblings growing up?

B (2:59)

Yeah, I have a Irish twin. My. My sister, my younger sister is 10 months younger than me. My mom went in for her six week checkup to find out she was pregnant.

A (3:08)

Been there.

B (3:08)

Yeah, I blame my dad on that one. And then I have a half brother, Jason, who actually works with us at Brightside. So he's.

A (3:16)

And he's from your mom's side or your dad's side?

B (3:18)

Mom's side. And as he would say it, same, whole different poll.

A (3:22)

I'm dead. How old were you when you sort of recognized that your parents were struggling?

B (3:30)

Yeah, it's. It's interesting as a kid, you don't know what you don't know, right? So it's like you're growing up and you're just like, rolling with the punches. You don't know that everybody's not experiencing the same thing. So, you know, I didn't even realize I was broke until, like, I got to school and they were like, talking about like, trailer park trash and stuff like this, and I didn't understand what that was until they were like, well, that's what you are. I was like, all right, but. And then, you know, like the, the stuff with the addiction again, like, it really was kept from us enough that we weren't seeing what was causing, like, you know, like the things that would eventually be the red flags for the schools and the people to step in and start an investigation. And, and those things were really just like, you know, I, you know, when I would get up in the mornings, I would kind of like, you know, look through a pile of clothes that was like, kind of on my floor for what was the cleanest to wear to school. And sometimes I'd be coming to school in the same outfit day after day. And so, you know, this was starting to raise flags for the guidance counselors and the counselors at the school systems, and they started to, to look into things.

A (4:34)

So they picked up on it.

B (4:35)

Yeah. And I think that's when you're like, oh, wait, what the heck? You know, like, you don't really know until somebody's like, and there's like this intervention or intervening but even, you know, our lives are very, very, you know, looking back, it was a lot of, like, just roll with the punches stuff. So when things would happen, we were just like, all right, well, we'll just keep, you know, keep pushing through and keep rolling with it.

A (4:54)

So did you ever have conversations with your parents or your siblings even about, like, if someone asks you this, this is what we'll say. Like, did you already have?

B (5:03)

Yeah, I mean, my parents did that to each other, too. So again, it was very normal. It's like, don't tell your dad this, don't tell your mom that.

A (5:09)

Right.

B (5:09)

You know, so and so, like, outside of the home, like, you don't. Definitely don't tell people out there this or that.

A (5:15)

Right. I have very similar memories. As a kid, my mom struggled with addiction, and so I also picked up clothes off the floor and sometimes in shower, and. But as the small town that I'm from, they didn't pick up on it. Like, I kind of knew what to say before they picked up on it, if that makes sense.

B (5:32)

Yeah. Yeah.

A (5:33)

So what did you say to the guidance counselors and things? Like, did you kind of just like, not say anything? Like, what do you do?

B (5:39)

Yeah, I mean, you know, thinking back, that's a great question, because, you know, I don't know that I've. I've, you know, gone back to those moments enough to be able to answer it quickly. But, you know, I think it was a little bit more of, like, I don't know, and, you know, you know, just kind of silence.

A (5:53)

Yeah. Or.

B (5:54)

Or like, maybe accepting blame myself. Like, oh, you know, I. I didn't get, you know, that I. Or, you know, I spilled this on me today, you know, and it's dirty from today. Like, you know, kind of like trying to accept the responsibility for the situation because, you know, you still love your parents. You definitely don't want to, like, you know, bring negative attention to them in a way that's going to paint them in a different light, you know?

A (6:14)

Did you ever get separated from your siblings when you were sort of going through all of this during your childhood?

B (6:20)

Yeah. So the. The first time we went to foster care, I remember I went to, like, this church event with some people in the neighborhood and their family, and we were at this church event right at Calvary On Route 10, I think it is. And, like, these two very official people come walking up to me and my younger sister, and they're like, you're coming with us. Now, listen, my childhood was what it was, but my parents still Taught me not to go with strangers still all the same stuff, you know? And so, like, you're put in this situation where you're like, you're being told that you have to come with them, you know? So for the first few homes, me and my sister were together. My brother went and stayed with my grandparents.

A (7:00)

Why did he get to go with the grandparents and y' all didn't?

B (7:02)

Yeah. I asked that question for a long time. And I will tell you, like, there was like, you know, there was like this feeling of like, why was I not good enough? And all that kind of stuff for a long time. But you'll hear through my story. Like, I've come to grips with the things that have happened to me were meant to happen to me, and I'm at peace with them. I forgave my grandparents a long time before anybody ever asked for forgiven. But did they ask for forgiveness? They did. My. My grandfather passed in 2015. My grandmother got sick a few years ago, and she called me and she said, I think one of the biggest mistakes I ever made was.

A (7:33)

I'll cry right now. Don't say it.

B (7:34)

She said, hold on. Yeah, yeah. She said that to me, man.

A (7:37)

I'm not supposed to cry during these interviews. And somehow y' all be making me cry. I don't have it in me today. Okay, hold on.

B (7:45)

No, it was. It was a tear jerker for me too, because I didn't want her to feel like I. I wanted to clarify this for her as well. Right. Because I know that had obviously had been eaten at her.

A (7:53)

Yeah.

B (7:54)

You know, so she called me and she said, you know, one of the biggest mistakes I ever made was, you know, bringing your brother in and leaving you and your sister. And here's the interesting part of that. I mentioned that my sister, excuse me, that my brother is my half brother, but these were our maternal grandparents.

A (8:10)

Right. So they were all three of yalls grandparents.

B (8:12)

Exactly. Yeah. But I will tell you, like, I genuinely, I know everybody says this and it's, you know, cliche to say, but, like, I genuinely am so grateful for the journey because as you'll learn, like, I do a lot with talking to kids in detention centers who have been in foster care. And that little intervention at that time of her grabbing me at that time and pulling me in could have stripped me of this relatability today.

A (8:38)

Right.

B (8:39)

That where I can have impact with people who are struggling with a lot of the things that I ended up struggling with. So. So I'm very grateful in that she did. You know, again, I wanted her to know, listen, I forgave you guys a long time ago. And again, kind of shared with you what I shared with her. What I just shared with you is like, there's purpose behind this, you know.

A (8:57)

But how do you get to that place? So for people listening to this podcast and even me, like, I go back and forth with the forgiveness. Like, some days I'm fine. I'm like, I understand. Everyone had life going on, so they couldn't just take me in.

B (9:08)

Yeah.

A (9:08)

But then on. On other days, I'm like, I don't understand. So how do you get to that place? How can our listeners that have gone through similar things get to the place of forgiveness?

B (9:17)

Yeah. It's not easy. And again, for a very long time, I did struggle with this. There's a moment that we'll get to here soon that kind of help shape the mindset that I have today. But I would say for big picture stuff, right, like, one of my core principal beliefs today is like, how can I keep things in my control? Right? The things that a lot that. That. That determine my happiness and my peace, I want as much control over them as possible. So if I dive into. Why wouldn't you do that? Why wouldn't. That's out of my control. What I can do is make peace with my reality and. And do something about the present and the future of it. There's. It's the Serenity prayer, which, you know, regardless of anybody's religious beliefs, the Serenity prayer is great for this. It's God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference that I don't care what you believe in is so much. There's so much peace that comes from that kind of core principal belief.

A (10:19)

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B (12:39)

Yeah.

A (12:40)

And I think what you said about the relatability today is like you went through all of that and so many people can relate to your story now. So it sort of makes it all worth it. But sometimes it's hard forgiving the people along the way.

B (12:51)

Yes.

A (12:53)

So your sister and your brother. Your sister, you're with your sister for a little while. Your brother goes with your grandparents. At what point do you separate from your sister and for how long?

B (13:02)

Yeah, so they, so they kept moving us in different homes because I guess if you're like, if your parents find out where you are when you're at a foster home, they have to relocate you. I didn't know that, but that's what they were telling us. And I don't know if that's true, but that's what we were being fed. Okay. I didn't know that, Yeah, I don't know that it's true. And maybe only if they're like posing a threat, like saying we're gonna come get our kids, whatever, you know, will that be true. But that's what we were being told. So we kept moving from home to home. And I mean, it was tough because, you know, you're going to different schools. Like, I remember my sixth grade school year, Kel. Like, I was in like six different school districts that year. School districts in one year, they don't.

A (13:41)

Try to keep you within the same school district.

B (13:42)

I'm sure they make an effort. But again, you've got to align with who can take two kids, right? That's part of the problem. Who can take two kids who has the space for a male versus a female who has space for male and female, right? Because, you know, you can't have. You can't have kids at a certain age in a room with the opposite sex at a certain age. So. So I mean, again, you got to find the right home. And I, so I. You. You hear me? I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, and I'm sure that they made efforts, but the reality is those homes were in different school districts. And again, part of my childhood was roll with the punches. Now the cool thing was, is some of those school districts, I'd show up and it would be the topic or the subject that we just finished in the other school. So, like, I'm an expert at this one, you know, but when we get to the other ones, I'm gonna have some troubles. But. But yeah, so at some point, you know, when they were moving us around, they weren't able to find a home for both me and my sister. And she went into a different home. And, you know, it's. It's a struggle. We'll probably get into this in a little bit. My sister took a totally different path than I did.

A (14:47)

Well, I was about to say, like, through all of this, you could have gone down an entirely different path. So how did you avoid sort of following in your parents footsteps?

B (14:57)

Well, I didn't for a long time. I went that direction for quite a while. You did? Yeah.

A (15:02)

Did you like, experiment with drugs and stuff or.

B (15:05)

I did, but not through use. So at 13 years old, or no, excuse me, at 12 years old, they sent us home out of nowhere.

A (15:15)

Back to your parents place?

B (15:17)

It was the summer after my sixth grade school year. They sent us home. Now when I got home, there was no power in the trailer. Neither one of my parents had a vehicle A license or a job. The only food that we were getting at the time was from churches locally. And we had an extension cord ran from the neighbor's house, powering our refrigerator and the tv. That's it. Flashlights in the bedrooms. And that's what they sent us home to.

A (15:41)

They knew all of those things.

B (15:42)

They knew. I mean, they had to have. Right? Because they.

A (15:45)

They do the check. Yeah.

B (15:47)

And so, like, one of the biggest things was one of my parents. In order for us to go home, one of my parents had to be clean through the drug tests for a period of time.

A (15:56)

Okay?

B (15:57)

So my mom. I believe. Yeah, I believe it was my mom that cleaned up enough for them to say, okay, we're going to send the kids home. But that's the environment we went back to. And again, like, we were in a bad neighborhood not too far from, like, Woodside in Magnolia area. Right? And so, like, you know, I'm 12 years old, lots of. Lots of negative around me. And, you know, I was still. Even though my parents had their struggles and their demons, I was still taught right from wrong.

A (16:23)

Right.

B (16:23)

But the problem was, is, like, I was seeing far more wrong than I was seeing right. So wrong became the norm for me. Right. Like, even though I knew, like, it was illegal or wrong, like, it was still comfortable because that's what everybody else was doing. So, yeah, so.

A (16:37)

So I got to kind of, like, lead by example, not by what I say. And so it's like, yeah, you can know right from wrong, but that's only being said to me. What you're doing and what's around me is wrong.

B (16:47)

Well, true. And, you know, it's also interesting because the way that I actually perceived it, I think, was like, this is the stuff that's, like, right to do was the stuff that the people that were cut from a different cloth were doing. And then the people that were cut from the cloth that I'm cut from does this. So we're wrong. They're right. Do you see what I'm saying? Because the environment was suggesting that. Even though you're telling me that that's right and this is wrong, we're all participating in this and it's working until it doesn't. I mean, I don't know if it's working, but it ain't killing us at the moment, you know, so it's like. It's like, so. So again, I, you know, I knew right from wrong. I knew better. I knew not to do this stuff, but I was comfortable in it, and I saw it. So Much that in. It would be against the grain to go the other direction.

A (17:33)

Right.

B (17:33)

You know what I mean?

A (17:34)

No, that makes sense.

B (17:35)

Friends, everybody around me, you know, and even if it wasn't all my friends, it was the friends that I was hanging out with.

A (17:41)

Anyway, right.

B (17:42)

So at 13, I got arrested for the first time, and it was a burglary. I broke into a trailer and stole a bike from somebody's house.

A (17:50)

You need the bike for something or you were going to sell it.

B (17:53)

It was like, my boys, like, you know, like, told me there was a bike in there, and I was like, well, I'll do it, you know, and so, like, kind of just, you know, proving myself to the. To the older kids or whatever. And so I got arrested for the first time at 13. Now, something really interesting happened in this moment because, again, foundationally, you're taught all these things that, like, if you get in trouble, you're gonna mess up your life. If you get arrested, you're gonna mess up your life. If you, you know, go to jail, you're gonna ruin your life. And so these things started happening for me because I got arrested at 13 for the first time, and then I got arrested at 14 and did two years in detention centers.

A (18:28)

When you got arrested the first time at 13, what happened? Was it just charges?

B (18:33)

Yeah, just like a. Charges of fine and maybe a little bit of probation. I don't really remember.

A (18:36)

Okay, but you didn't, like, go sit in a facility or anything?

B (18:39)

I don't think so. And if I did, it was like an overnight. But the second time at 14, when I went in, I went to Stevenson House. I went to Ferris School for Boys. I went to a program up in Pennsylvania. And it was at that time where it was like, oh, okay, if you go to jail, you ruin your life. Check. Right.

A (18:57)

Like, that was the awakening for you.

B (18:58)

No, no, no. That's the moment for me that was like, oh, okay, if this is true, then I just ruined my life.

A (19:04)

Okay. So the light bulb went off. You're like, I just ruined my life.

B (19:06)

I just ruined my life. So. Oh, okay, well, I don't have a chance anymore. So it was like. And I didn't really realize that at the time as much as, like, my behavior demonstrated that throughout the next few years.

A (19:17)

So you were kind of just like, if my life is over, I might as well just keep doing what I'm doing, because it doesn't matter anymore.

B (19:22)

It was very much destructive behaviors.

A (19:25)

Yeah, well, because you thought that it was over anyways.

B (19:28)

I definitely didn't think I had a chance at anything I'm doing today, that's for damn sure, you know.

A (19:34)

So from, so you're 14, you go to, you said it was a detention facility? Yep.

B (19:38)

Stevenson House in Milford.

A (19:40)

How long were you there?

B (19:41)

I was there about four months. Okay, four or five months. And then I went from there to Ferris School, actually, excuse me, I went from there to a program in PA. I was only supposed to do 30 to 60 days.

A (19:55)

How long were you there?

B (19:56)

I go to this program. So I got caught with drugs in school. I took the route that I was using in court, right? So that they would like treat me as an addict rather than somebody who's selling drugs. So I went to, I went to a rehab program in PA that was like minimum security.

A (20:13)

Sure.

B (20:13)

And, but here's the thing, right? I'm like this 14 year old punk ass white boy from Magnolia, Delaware. Now I'm right outside Philly in a rehab for teenagers, right? We're talking 13 year old full on heroin addicts and 14 year old like from the inner city Philadelphia who's like looking at this punk ass white boy from Magnolia, Delaware and ready to like bully the hell out of me, right? So the first two weeks I'm in this program, I mean I'm being, I'm be. And they know the game that I played and they know that I'm not there for the, that they're there for. You know what I mean? Oh my gosh. So I'm being tested at every turn and it wasn't two weeks into the program, I get into a fight with another kid and I ended up getting a lucky punch. I don't want to come off like sounding like I'm trying to be a badass or anything like that. I got a lucky punch, broke the kid's nose. They kicked me out of the program. I had to go back to Stevenson House, go back in front of a judge and that's what delayed my stay so long. But because I did what I did, they then sent me to Ferris School for Boys, which is a six month program. But now I've been down for like five or six months at this point. Before I went to Ferris School for Boys in Wilmington.

A (21:20)

Who was your support system during this time? Like were you keeping up with your siblings, your parents, your grandparents? Like did anyone reach out to you?

B (21:27)

They were doing the best they could. My mom, I will give my mom credit, man. Like my mom is a trooper in the way that like, you know, when she would show up at school, when I would get in Trouble. She'd be like, whose fault is it? You know what I mean? So, like. You know what I'm saying? So, like, she showed her love through the way of, like. But the problem was, is it really nurtured this victim mentality for me. Right? So, like, everything that happened was somebody else's fault. Even if it was mine, it was the system that made me do it or whatever, you know? I mean, this is the. These are the thoughts that were going through my mind at the time. So my mom, she would show up. She showed up to the rehab up there in PA Only got visits on the weekends, I think, at that time. And then she would come very often to see me in detention center in Stevenson and in Paris. And I'm smiling because I remember one time in particular at Stevenson House because I was in the old building.

A (22:11)

Okay.

B (22:11)

And the. The cells in Stevenson House actually didn't have a. Like, on the outside of the cells. There wasn't a fence around the building.

A (22:20)

Okay.

B (22:20)

So, like, I could look out my window and actually see the highway.

A (22:23)

Oh.

B (22:24)

And it was the.

A (22:25)

The.

B (22:25)

There was a. Like a shopping center to the left there. Right. So my mom actually brought all my friends down one night and they snuck up to my window and we're all, like, talking through the window. And she. So she's like. She's a g. Like, in that way, like, she definitely would do, like, whatever she could for me. She really could.

A (22:43)

You say she was more of like a functioning addict?

B (22:46)

Yes. Yeah. She.

A (22:47)

Or she, like, kind of at times.

B (22:49)

It developed into something that was definitely non functional, but. But. But at times she was functional. Yeah.

A (22:54)

Because I. When I talk about my mom, there are definitely, like, she used to be a good person, you know, so, like, she had it in her.

B (23:01)

Yeah.

A (23:02)

But then she didn't have, like, the means, I guess, to like, continue, if that makes sense.

B (23:07)

Yeah, yeah, definitely. It definitely does. Because again, like I. Like I said, if there's times where her intention was to keep herself out of withdrawal. Right. But that doesn't always translate to just that. So there were days where I would find my mom completely, you know, almost in a coma, the way that she was completely out of it. Like, I would wake up for school before the detention centers and stuff, and I'd go out to the kitchen and there she is on the floor. I remember having to call ambulances and stuff because, like, my mom's on the floor.

A (23:36)

Like, more than one occasion.

B (23:38)

Yeah.

A (23:39)

And how did that shape you? Do you feel like that, like, desensitized you to a lot of things once you became an adult.

B (23:45)

I don't know, because like, again, that victim mindset made me always want to blame something else. So I never like, think I, I never, I never blamed my mom. And yeah, I mean, obviously I think you like, I don't want that, that's for damn sure. But, but I don't know that I ever gotten to this point where it was like, that was like this ultimate motivation of do better.

A (24:06)

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B (27:04)

The core belief in our home was everything that we were experiencing that was bad was somebody else's fault, right?

A (27:09)

Yeah, my mom was very similar to that. I always think about childhood. I was pretty much self sufficient. Like I had to get myself up, I had to get myself to school. I have to. But school was my safe space. Did you ever feel like you had a safe space that you wanted to go to outside of home?

B (27:23)

Maybe earlier on with school. But again there came a time where like, you know, I, I remember like I, I would like draw like, I would try to draw like Nike logos and like, like, like brand name logos onto my shoes to like fit in, you know. So yeah, so it was. And again like I also was an asshole in school because like I wanted attention but I wasn't gonna get it through popularity. So like I, I acted out, you know. So when I look back and I'm like, people treated me like. Well yeah, so did I. Like, I treated them like shit too, you know, Like I was an asshole. No wonder many people didn't like me at that time of my life, you know, so crazy.

A (28:02)

I feel like that's relatable though. Like so many people. It's projection.

B (28:05)

Yeah.

A (28:05)

And I think so many people are confused about what projection is until they're, they're on the other side. The happier you are, you are More self aware, I feel.

B (28:13)

Ye.

A (28:14)

Like, I look back and was not very nice to like childhood friends and I'm like, oh, because people were mean to me and it's not okay. But like, what can you do at that point, you know? So 14, you're in the detention center, then you get to go back home after that.

B (28:29)

Yeah, I came home when I was 16.

A (28:30)

Okay.

B (28:32)

The highlight of that time for me was I actually met my wife Heather at that time. I met her in Blades, Delaware. My parents had split up. Up. We went to live in Bridgeville for a little while. My dad was in Seaford and so, like, I was kind of back and forth seeing them and. Yeah.

A (28:50)

So you met your wife when you were 16?

B (28:52)

Yes.

A (28:53)

And you were together right away, like ever since you were 16 or was.

B (28:56)

It kind of like, oh, it has not, it has been a rocky road.

A (28:59)

Okay.

B (28:59)

But yes, we've been rocking together since I was 16 and she was 15.

A (29:04)

But when you look at your childhood and sort of how tumultuous it was, how do you, you, like, what does that do when you think about your relationship? Like, how have you been able to sustain a relationship like that in your life with the childhood that you've had?

B (29:16)

By pure miracle, Kayla. Because, like, like it was.

A (29:20)

I have a really hard time with relationships because of my childhood, and for a long time I never wanted to acknowledge that. So that's so shocking to me that she was just rocking with you on, like, obviously there's rough times over the years, but did she sort of know your childhood and everything that you had experienced?

B (29:36)

Oh, yeah, yeah, we, I, I, we talked about it. She saw it. Like, when I met her, I was, at that time, I was living in a camper behind my uncle's house with my dad. It was just him and I in a camper. And she, and she's like, I didn't know that at the very beginning, but, but I found out quickly. But the connection, I don't know, we, we had a pretty cool connection. And I can't explain it. I, I want to sit here and tell you, like, oh, we were meant to be together and all the cliche stuff, but the reality is, is like, like, we were what, what, what I needed, she was. And what I was is what she needed at that time. And I think getting into all that.

A (30:13)

Trouble, she needed that.

B (30:14)

Well, she, she needed somebody that was willing to fight any enemy for her. And I was that guy. Like, like, I was that dude, you know? So now the only person I couldn't protect her from was me. And I was not, not a good person. I wasn't a good boyfriend. I wasn't at times in our marriage. I wasn't a good husband. And so, you know, but. But I'm happy to say that, like, we, we made it through stuff that, like, nobody makes it through. Like, it's, it's crazy. Like, I hope one day her and I can sit on a stage and talk about, like, the ways that we've overcome things. She's not as extroverted as I am, so I'm gonna have to get her out of her shell for some of that stuff.

A (30:57)

Relationships, when one is the golden retriever and.

B (30:59)

Yeah, more exactly.

A (31:00)

I don't know. Yeah.

B (31:02)

And I'm a risk taker and she's not. So we balance each other in a lot of ways.

A (31:06)

Yes, that's what they say.

B (31:07)

Yeah.

A (31:08)

Okay, so you meet her at 16 and then what happened after that?

B (31:12)

So I, I wish her presence in my life was enough for me to be like, you know, straighten out and stuff like that, but it wasn't. I got arrested at 17, charged as an adult for robbery.

A (31:22)

Who did you rob?

B (31:24)

Me. It was a person. Me, my cousin and. And actually, well, two of my cousins were in Dover. I'll just say it like it is. We're pretty much looking for trouble.

A (31:36)

Do your cousins also get arrested?

B (31:38)

They did, but they were 16 and 15.

A (31:41)

So they get tried as kids and.

B (31:42)

They were first offenders. So I had already done almost two years.

A (31:46)

Were you the ringleader?

B (31:47)

I would. I mean, that's what they said. Yeah. Yeah.

A (31:50)

Okay.

B (31:51)

Yeah. Anyway, they. It's funny because they offered me a plea when I went to court to go back to Ferris. And I was like, bump that. I'm not going back to Ferris. I just left Ferris. I just got out of Ferris. And so I go back to court. They're like, yeah, it's okay because you're. We're going to charge you as an adult anyway. You're going to go to real jail. I was like, wait, I'll go back to Ferris. And it was too late.

A (32:11)

Too late. So you were 17 and you went to. Yes, but in Delaware there's only prison. So how does that work if you're tried as an adult?

B (32:19)

So I was still. While I was going to court, I was in Stevenson House in the new facility.

A (32:23)

Okay.

B (32:24)

I was in there for three months when my wife, my girlfriend at the time time, she actually got together some money and got me bailed out.

A (32:32)

This is the same one you met when you were 16?

B (32:33)

Yeah. It was crazy because I did not expect to be bailed out. My bill was kind of high. They found a bail bondsman that would work with them, and they billed me out. While I was out on bail, I got her pregnant. Then I had to go back to court for sentencing and, you know, for. For the charge, and she rolls in there, like, five months pregnant. For sympathy, we're trying to get the judge to, like, you know, go easy on me, but he did. He did sentence me to eight months total. So I had three months in Stevenson House. I had to go to Smyrna to serve the other five. And I just turned 18 on March 5, and I go in there April 12 or something like that. So it was like a month after turning 18.

A (33:15)

So then you were in there when she gave birth?

B (33:17)

I was, yeah.

A (33:18)

What was that like?

B (33:19)

It was brutal. It was brutal, man. So I met my daughter for the first time at a prison visit.

A (33:24)

It.

B (33:25)

And how old was she? A couple weeks. A couple weeks?

A (33:29)

How did you guys even. How could you support her being. Obviously, you were young, getting yourself into trouble, and now you have this woman pregnant. How do you support her from prison?

B (33:40)

Support her? She's. She's putting money on my commission books, you know, she's putting money on my books. So, no, I couldn't. The best I could do was draw pictures and send them home to her. That's it. That's all I could do.

A (33:52)

And so you meet your daughter in.

B (33:53)

Prison for the first time? Yep.

A (33:55)

Did you help pick out baby names? Like, how did that.

B (33:57)

Oh, yeah, we. We had picked out the names, like.

A (33:59)

Over the phone or something.

B (34:00)

And before. Yeah, before I went in. Yeah. But it was heartbreaking because, you know, if you ever been to a visit to Smyrna Prison, like, you get a. You get a minute or, well, like, 30 seconds at the beginning of a visit to embrace the other. The visitors. So I got to hold my daughter for, like, 30 seconds. But you also can pay to have pictures taken, so I did that. It was like, a couple bucks to have. Have, like, a Polaroid picture snapped. So I got to hold her for that first 30 seconds and then enough to take a picture, and then I've got to give her back to her mom. That's me meeting my. My daughter. And again, you know, there's these mo. All these moments, Kayl, where it's like, bro, come on, man, this isn't enough for you to, like, straighten the out and, like, get it together. And it wasn't like I was in and out of jail three More times after that.

A (34:42)

What was your. I know you were just dating at that time, but like your wife now, what was she saying to you? Was she pissed off with you every single time you got in trouble or what?

B (34:51)

Of course. Well, I being pissed off, she was disappointed. She also like, again, like, oh man, that girl saw potential in me like way before I ever saw it in myself, you know. And, and, and it's still true to this day. That girl sees far more worth than me, than I do in myself. Most of the time I'm like having conversations about stuff and she's like, you need to charge more for that. I'm like, all right, all right.

A (35:16)

They say like a woman behind the man will be the brain. So, so you meet your daughter in, in prison?

B (35:23)

Yeah.

A (35:23)

Do you really stay behind, like in your cell for 23 hours a day? Is that actual in.

B (35:29)

So what's interesting is like there's a journey, right when you first arrive to prison. You know, the bed that you're technically supposed to end up at isn't always available. Right. Kind of like the journey and foster care is like, you know, finding that. So, so what ends up happening, which is crazy because especially I'm an 18 year old, probably weighed a buck 50 soaking wet. You know, they, they take me into the prison, I go into cell block C, which is actually where Lt. Floyd was when he was killed. Then they move you in like a journey of what beds are available where. And they. One of the places they put me in was, was E building, which at the time, I don't know if it's still true, but that was the sex offender building. So here they put this 150 pound punk ass white boy again in, in this situation. And like, thank goodness, like the guards, like they were like a little bit more like they were paying attention to me. And I was only there for a couple of nights. But like, you know, like there's some pretty big people in prison and they group up and they could have done probably anything to me if I'd have stayed in there long enough. But luckily, and I thank God for this because, you know, I, I was fine the whole way through. And we'll get into some of the, you know, physical stuff, but, you know, I, I went from E building, which was the sex offender building, to maximum security. I spent a month back there, which is called the Moo. And my cellmate there was a 6 foot 2 guy named Diggs from Wilmington, Delaware, who was serving two life sentences for a double slang in, in Wilmington.

A (37:04)

And were you terrified I mean, because that's not the type of crimes you. Crimes you were committing.

B (37:08)

This is like I'm trying to get this guy the benefit of the doubt. I don't want to go in there all judgmental either. You know what I'm saying? So. And. And we're locked. That one was 23.

A (37:14)

And.

B (37:15)

And one. That was a 23 in one building.

A (37:18)

So you were behind.

B (37:19)

We were in the cell together for 23 hours a day with him. I didn't get into a fight with him, but I got into fights. Yeah.

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B (37:44)

Night.

A (37:44)

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B (38:59)

No. And again, just in the name of, like, protecting time, I'd be happy to go through each day, but I would tell you I was in and out of prison. The next one, I went to boot camp. Camp for possession with intent to deliver cocaine.

A (39:12)

So by 21, we'll say you had multiple felonies.

B (39:16)

Multiple felonies.

A (39:16)

You've been in and out of prison.

B (39:18)

Yes.

A (39:18)

And then what happens?

B (39:19)

So, so again, just to kind of go over the charges because this is significant and the story is my first adult charge was a robbery. My second with was possession with intent to deliver cocaine. My third was a burglary. No, my third was an assault. Assault. And so then I, I actually was being arrested for a burglary when I was 21. I had already had the robbery, the possession with intent to deliver cocaine felony, and the assault felony. Okay. But the thing about those felonies is they don't really go together, right? So like if I had had nothing but drug charges, they would look at me a certain way. But when you have like this vast amount of different charges, they definitely look at you as a menace to society.

A (40:03)

And because it's like an escalation of behavior. The same like for domestic violence, like they're going to look at what it is and it's. If there's an escalation.

B (40:12)

Yeah. And even if, like, if it had gotten worse, like let's say I had a drug charge and then I had a possession with intent and then I had a trafficking that would be looked at as like, okay, he has a problem. But it's, but it's niched down to this specific thing. Whereas my shit was all over the place and now I was being arrested for a burglaries, which is a fourth felony. And it's different than any of my previous ones. So they're looking at me like this dude is just absolute problem. Right. And so what other, what a lot of people don't know too, when you have this kind of criminal history, what happens is, is you, most people take pleas, they don't go to trial and get found guilty. Right. So I took pleas in each one of these cases that had a, a sentence that was suspended for the sentence that I ended up serving. Okay. And people that mean. So like they'll say, and I don't know the, the exact legality specifics of it, but they'll say like for example, one of my, one of my sentences was, was 10 years, level five, which is prison time suspended for five years, level five. And then it says deferred for the six months boot camp that I did. Okay. So that's three different levels to my sentence. This is the one I end up doing. This is the six months boot camp. But if I this one up, I do this one and if I this one up, I do that one. Now here's the thing that includes the probation that follows with each one.

A (41:25)

Okay?

B (41:25)

Okay. So because I kept violating my Probations with these new charges, the backup time for these previous sentences were following me, and I didn't know that. So when I end up going to court for this final fourth burglary charge, I'm in the courtroom or in the holding cell underneath the courtroom the same way that I had done for all the previous charges. I know the routine. I'm kind of like, let's get on with it, you know what I mean? Now this one, I got caught red handed. Now, I didn't even get caught red handed. I got caught walking out of the building with equipment in my hand and my truck was loaded with equipment, equipment. So I got caught worse than red handed. I got caught in the middle of the act. Guilty as can be. Like, there's no arguing this, right? I get to trial. I know. Or I get to court. And I'm like, I know I'm going to take a plea at some point. It's probably not going to be today, but I know what's going to happen. So I'm like waiting. I'm like, come on, let's get on with it. Let's get on with the show. So my public defender, because I still didn't have any money, despite all of the stuff that I had done, I didn't have any money. So my public defender comes to me and he's like, Mr. Jones, you do have a plea offer on the table today. Day, if you're willing to, to plead guilty to count one, they're going to dismiss the remaining charges and they're going to make a recommendation to the court for 33 years, level five.

A (42:35)

33 years in prison.

B (42:36)

Yeah. And he said it casually, just like I did. I'm like, and he thought you were.

A (42:40)

Going to take that?

B (42:41)

Well then, well then, no. Then I'm like, waiting. I'm like, suspended for what? Right? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, I just explained none of that. And I'm like, what are you talking about, bro? 33 years for a burglary. He's like. I'm like, first of all, I'm 21. Like, you think I'm wrapping my head around 33 years as an agreement right now? That's crazy.

A (43:00)

Yeah.

B (43:01)

He's like, ah, so nobody's really explained this to you yet? So he goes on to explain to me, he's like, you're being classified as a habitual offender. In addition to the significant sentence that goes along with a habitual offender classification, you have over 15 years of level 5 time, time following you in your violation of Probation that you're also up for with this new charge, which you did not know. Which I didn't understand fully looking back.

A (43:29)

If you knew what you knew, what you know now or what you found out that day, would that have been in the back of your mind before you committed that burglary, that last and final offense?

B (43:37)

You know, I don't know. Because the realization of. Of how, like, how real this was versus a threat, like if you get in trouble again, you know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, this was real. This was happening. And like, my whole. My whole life changed in that moment. I'm like, bro, cuz now, first of all, I'm guilty. I can't even argue this case.

A (43:57)

Yeah, like, you can't say circumstantial evidence.

B (44:00)

Every other. Yeah, every other case I had, there was like, I got this thing and this loophole and this thing and like this. I don't have nothing. The guy that caught me, right? The guy that caught me was showing up to every single court date. He didn't have to be there for. He was first in line out front like it was a new iPhone release. Like, it's. It's a very interesting story. This guy, like, he caught me red handed. He's the reason I got arrested. He shows up to every court date. I have this sentence pending, like this plea offer pending. And by the way, usually the closer you get to trial, they'll change the plea. Because now they're like, all right, he's, you know, kind of bluffing his hand a little bit. Maybe we'll offer him something a little bit better.

A (44:37)

I know they did that.

B (44:38)

They do, yeah. The closer you get to trial, the lower the plea offer. Well, once you know the game, you got to play it. So, you know, but they get the time out of you because it's time. You know, there's month and a half between court dates, two months between court dates. So this plea offer changes everything for me. In my mind. I'm like, yo, this is it. Yeah, like, I'm going back to my prison cell at night. I'm like, this is it. This is it, right? I remember, like, I remember one night in particular. I'm in my prison cell at Smyrna Prison in the pre trial section. And the cells are not like what most people envision. There's no bars on the actual prison cells, okay? It's a room with a steel door and there's these long, narrow windows in your cell, right? So you can look out the window, but it's nothing that you, even if it was broken, you would never be able to get through this narrow opening, right? So I'm looking out this window, and the sun's starting to set, right? And I see the building next to me, and then there's barbed wire, razor wire running over, across the top of it. And then the fence is off to the left, left. And I'm watching the sun setting, and I'm having this moment of reflection, and I'm just sitting there thinking, like, this is it.

A (45:40)

This is your life.

B (45:41)

This is it, man. Like, even if by some miracle, right, I get out of here, it's evident that I'm going to be in and out of prison for the rest of my life at the very least. So I just need to get good at this. I just need to get good at prison reason, because this is what I'll be doing for the rest of my life.

A (46:01)

And you sort of accepted that.

B (46:04)

Yeah.

A (46:04)

So where was the switch? And if you thought you were going in for, what, 33 years, what ended up happening?

B (46:11)

So for the next seven months, I went back and forth to court. And what changed for me and I, you know, we can get spiritual, religious if we want, but. And at the time, I didn't even know, like, who or what I was praying to, but I just spent every single night to prior praying, and I prayed for 15 years, 10 years, five years, something that I could recover from right now. Even though I had accepted my fate, like, I still had hope for another chance. But I'm like, meanwhile, I'm getting good at prison. Like, I'm. I'm adjusting to prison life. I'm getting ready to go to the. The compound is what they call it. Once you're starting to do your time, you leave pre trial and you go to the prison to do your time. So I'm like, I.

A (46:53)

Right.

B (46:53)

You know, I'm getting ready for that, right? I'm three months in when my cousin, the same cousin from the robbery charge earlier in the story, ends up killing somebody in Dover. Drug deal went bad. Guy tries to rob him, reaches in the car, punches him in the face and says, give me what you have with a gun in his hand. But what he didn't know is my Cousin had a little.22 sitting in his lap just like this when I. It happened. So as soon as he punched him, my cousin fired one time, bang. Went through the car window into the kid's chest, and he died. My cousin was on the run for about a month and a half, and he got caught over in Townpoint Apartments. And this is why I like, I believe wholeheartedly that stuff happens for a reason. Because out of all the tears in the prison that he could have ended up in, he ended up three doors down from my cell. Cell on my tier, which is important because the guy that he killed has family all over the prison. So for the next four months, me and him back to, back to go and eat at the chow hall, fighting left and right, dealing with that guy's family. Yeah. And it was, I mean it's, to this day, it's the scariest time of my life. Because like you go from, first of all, I had been in there three months, so some of the people I'm fighting, I was just cooking bunas. And with nights before that, like what? Oh, bun. It's, it's, it's like we get together and we make meals out of like UD and noodles and stuff. Yeah, it's called buna. But anyway, and so, so like three, you know, two nights ago I'm cooking and eating meals with these people and two nights later I'm fighting them because.

A (48:33)

That'S your cousin and you wanted to like help him or.

B (48:37)

First of all, it's almost like a moral obligation. Even if he wasn't. I mean, it was because he was my cousin, but yeah, I mean I like they were going to kill him.

A (48:47)

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B (50:21)

Would have had to bring it to the attention of the guards and stuff like that and basically sign himself up for protective custody, which is a total move in the prisons. And, you know, should he have done that? Probably.

A (50:33)

Probably because it put you in a bad spot. Spot.

B (50:35)

Yeah. But I don't know. I. You know, to me, it's like at the time, you know, what we did was more normal than having done that.

A (50:43)

Okay.

B (50:43)

You know what I mean?

A (50:44)

Yeah.

B (50:44)

So. And I remember one day in particular because he would kind of stay in his cell, Right. Unless he had to leave his cell.

A (50:50)

Right.

B (50:50)

Well, I was out at rec. And like, I'll back up just a little bit. Some of the relationships that I had formed in those three months I was able to leverage. And I'm like, look, guys, I know what happened sucks, like. But it ain't gonna bring your cousin back. It ain't gonna bring your whatever back. And the only thing this is gonna do is get us all fighting, which I have to fight for my cousin. I respect what you guys have to do, but I was able to, like, kind of like be a voice of reason with a few people. Not everybody, but for a few people. So I was able to lessen the blow. And I remember I was out playing basketball during yard, and I'm running up and down the court, full, full court. And I stopped for a few more. More seconds down at this end of the court because of, you know, a rebound went our way or whatever. And I'm listening to a group of guys on the side of the court say they're going to run in on the white boy on a tier or him. Well, there was only three of us. It was either me, him, or this old white dude at the end. So by process of elimination, I assumed it was my cousin, right? So. So now I'm like, I gotta get. Because he's sitting in there, he's probably in his slides, right? He's probably. He's not prepared to fight right now. I know that. So I gotta be the first one in. Tell him to lace up. And then by the time I get to him, I'm sure they're going to be here, right? So as soon as they open the doors from yard to get back to our tears, and people are like, nobody's seen. You don't see as mass people moving in directions guards don't see, right? So I get onto my. I get onto my tier. Run down there. I'm like, theo, they're coming right now. Get your sneakers on. And he didn't hesitate, grabbed his sneakers. I turn around, and they all got. They got me surrounded at the door.

A (52:22)

Y' all got jumped.

B (52:23)

Hold on now. Now, some of them. Yes. Yes is the answer. But some of them were people that were trying to catch him without me. So a couple of them backed out when they saw that I was there because they didn't want to. Like, we had a decent relationship, you know, so they didn't want to go through me to get him. They just wanted to get him. So a couple of them backed out. The other people I didn't know, and we started banging right then. We started brawling right then.

A (52:44)

So did your sentence get prolonged because of all this?

B (52:46)

I didn't get caught. So, again, because people. People always ask this question, like, during that moment in the prison system, it's very, very hectic. There's a lot of people moving from one place to another. It's almost impossible for guards to see down the table tear what's happening. And. And so, long story short, no, I didn't get in trouble for that one. Now, another time, this one real quick. I was in the cell with him. We were playing cards during what we could call a tear wreck, where all the cell doors are open, but, you know, you're not allowed to leave the tier. So I'm in there. We're playing cards on his bunk, just, you know, playing cards back and forth, when one of the guys I had been talking down for the last few months comes in. Now, this dude's like six foot two, big boy, right? He comes in, and he's like, I haven't been able to catch him by himself, so I'm just gonna have to get both of y', all, right? So I walk up to him, trying to be the voice of reason, right? And he's standing in the doorway of the cell. So what I do is I could tell he was convinced that he was going to do what he was going to do. So I look behind him and I go like this, right? Like, acting like I'm talking to somebody behind him, but there wasn't anyone. There wasn't nobody there. He turns to look and see who I'm talking to. And I gave him everything I had in that moment. And so, because. Because, like, people are like, oh, you sucker punched him. I'm like, you're damn right for your.

A (54:00)

Life at that point.

B (54:01)

Like, you're damn right. So. But what was interesting about this one was, I mean, here you have this six foot two, big dude, Very big dude. And we did end up getting the best of him because of what happened. And one of the guys that saw what was happening shut the door. So we're in there, in there with him. Yeah. And so what ends up happening? Like, we did get the upper hand again. I'll say lucky punches. I'm not. No. Like, I don't like to sound, like, tough or like I'm some MMA fighter or something like that. I got some lucky punches in. I got. We got the best of him. And now they're asking for the door to open when he comes out. He pissed himself. And so he leaves, goes down there, but he's. He's busted up. Good. So this did draw the attention of the lieutenants and. And the staff who come down. And when this happens, what they do is they crack all the doors on the tier and they go down and they check everybody's knuckle house. Right. Because this is how they find out.

A (54:50)

Who did this to him. That's corrupt. It's like broken because they closed him into your room and he shouldn't have been in the room anyways.

B (54:57)

Yeah, but that was other inmates. That wasn't the guards.

A (54:59)

Right. So how would that affect you. You're fighting for your life.

B (55:03)

Yes. Could I argue it? Sure. But it would be in the hole. Like, I'd be arguing it from the hole. Because they don't ask those questions until after. You know what I'm saying? So. So like, so what was interesting is they crack my. They crack everybody's doors, and then they crack my doors.

A (55:16)

Door.

B (55:16)

And here I AM Again, buck 60, punk ass white boy. You know, they're looking at my nose and they're just busted up, beet red. And they're looking at me and they're looking at my knuckles, and they're looking at me and they're like, nah. And it's just. Keep it moving. So.

A (55:33)

Are you serious?

B (55:34)

Yeah. Yeah.

A (55:35)

I thought you were gonna say they extended your time or something.

B (55:37)

Nope, they did not. They did.

A (55:39)

So how long after that did you get released?

B (55:42)

So four months in, before I went to trial. And by the way, Kale, remember, I'M preparing to go to the court compound. I don't think there's like no way. Right. Because of my case, I'm prepared to go to the compound, but that still meant that I'm trying to make sure my cousin's going to be all right. So I had had conversations with some of the, the guys on my tier and I'm like, look, I don't expect you to fight for my cousin the way I fought for my cousin. All I'm asking is don't let him get killed. Right?

A (56:06)

Yeah.

B (56:06)

And they, you know, loosely agreed to that, most of them. So I was like, I felt pretty good about leaving and, and he was going to be. Be all right at that point.

A (56:13)

Would you have tried to stay if you didn't think you.

B (56:15)

There's nothing I could do to stay because I'm gonna regardless. Even so, my sentence is going to. I can't be sentenced and be in there. So if I'm sentenced for anything, I can't be with the people that haven't been sentenced yet.

A (56:27)

Okay.

B (56:28)

It's, it is a conflict. And if somebody who is non sentenced hurts somebody that is sentenced or vice versa, because you're innocent until proven guilty. So if somebody who's pre trial trial gets hurt by a prisoner, an inmate who's actually been sentenced, the, the system could be responsible for those.

A (56:44)

Got it. Okay, that makes sense.

B (56:46)

So. So anyway, I go to court and they put me in a holding cell and the same public defender comes to me and he's like, hey, Bobby. Or he calls me, you know, Robert or whatever, you know, and he's like, robert, the plea hasn't changed at all. I'm like. He's like, but I have an idea. I'm like, bro, sign me up, you know, I mean, I feel like I.

A (57:05)

Haven'T heard it yet, but I need to know.

B (57:07)

Right? So then he, but he tells me the story and then I'm. Or the idea, and I'm a little less enthused. And his idea was, we're going to take a few people from the holding cell, we're going to put you in the jury box, and we're going to see if this witness can still identify you today. Right.

A (57:20)

And you weren't thrilled about that?

B (57:21)

I wasn't thrilled because ain't a whole lot of punk white boys in the prisons in the holding cell. Right. So it wasn't about the idea. The idea was great. It's like if I had a bunch of doppelgangers in there with me. This is a brilliant Idea. You know what I mean?

A (57:34)

Yeah, for sure.

B (57:34)

But the best we could do was an older white dude with tattoos on his face and those big gauges in his ears. Obviously he didn't have the gauges, so he just has these huge holes in his ears. A light skinned Spanish guy and an older white dude who literally has, like, facial hair and a white. Like, white beard. Like, not full, but a white beard, right? I'm like, bro, this is the best we got. Like, you couldn't just, like, throw a good idea, though. It's a great idea, right? So anyway, he puts us in the jury box, right? And. And the doors open, and prosecutor and the public defender escort this witness into the courtroom. And just like most courtrooms, you come into the courtroom and then you come a little closer. There's this gate. You come past that gate, now you're within the courtroom area, right? And the prosecutor's on his right and the public defenders on his left. And the guy, from the moment the first door opened was like this.

A (58:24)

On you?

B (58:24)

On me.

A (58:25)

So he knew I was like, shit.

B (58:26)

Locked in on me. Walks all the way to that point, staring at me the whole time. Time. And in front of the courtroom, the prosecutor and the public defender and everybody else in attendance, that man said, the man that did this is not here in the courtroom today.

A (58:40)

Why?

B (58:41)

Don't know.

A (58:42)

You still don't know? You never talked to him after that? You never saw him again?

B (58:45)

Hell, no. Last thing I wanted to do, Kale, is remind him that I was that guy.

A (58:49)

So you don't know if he was, like, doing you a favor or if he was like, in. Like.

B (58:54)

There's multiple things that go through my mind. One, I got caught in the act, which means I didn't successfully commit the crime. They recovered all the equipment, right? So maybe he's like, the punishment fits the crime. This dude's been down seven months, right? Maybe. Maybe he's tired of going to court. I. It didn't seem like he was tired of court because he was first in line every day. But the. Either way, like, you know, to me, like, it was so crazy to me because, like, I'm like, first of all, I'm like, what did he just say? And I'm looking at the face on the prosecutor because he's just got this look of absolute disappointment in shock.

A (59:22)

Well, because I think it is a check on him. Like, a strike against him as a prosecutor is like, I fought this, and I thought this was a guaranteed win.

B (59:28)

100. And. And they've moved that way throughout this entire process. But what's. What's crazy about this new set of circumstances is even my. Even the time that my violation of probation carried with me, that was dependent on this conviction. So with this. With him saying this, it kind of.

A (59:49)

Erased everything or what?

B (59:51)

Everything.

A (59:51)

That's why the prosecution was probably like, what the. Because they just sunk all their resources into this. And then you got off.

B (59:57)

Yeah.

A (59:58)

So you're out. You get out.

B (59:59)

I mean, and that's the moment, Kale. That's the moment that everything changed for me. Because, like, you know, it's interesting when I look at it, like, you know, when I look back on it, like, yeah, I was being. I was being released from prison, Right. But in that moment, the real prison that I was being released from was not made of concrete and steel. It was made up of every limiting belief, every set of victim mentality that I had in my mind, like, everything was freaking gone. I was like, you know what? Like, there's no way that this isn't something that was, you know, whatever your belief is. Like, it was just. Just divine intervention. To me, that's the way I was interpreting it. Whether it was or not, that's up for anybody to debate. Right. But to me, that's how I was going to perceive it.

A (60:39)

And at this point was. How old were you?

B (60:41)

21.

A (60:42)

So you left there and you changed your Life. Yeah, like, 1000% changed it or did. Was there.

B (60:48)

I mean, sort of, like, did I ever speed again or did I, you know, like.

A (60:50)

Yeah, yeah.

B (60:51)

But, yeah, I mean, I definitely moved way different. Like, I mean, I would say it was a 90% transformation in that moment alone.

A (60:59)

Did your wife notice the change in you as soon as you got out?

B (61:02)

Yeah, 100.

A (61:03)

Like, everyone sort of noticed. Okay, this is. We're turning a new leaf this time.

B (61:07)

Oh, yeah. Again, I was far from perfect, especially as a husband and a father, but. But, yeah, it was definitely a new me.

A (61:14)

So did you guys get married before you had went in?

B (61:16)

Yeah, we got married in 05, so it was previous to a couple of those.

A (61:19)

So y' all were already married when you went into this happened?

B (61:22)

Yeah.

A (61:22)

Okay.

B (61:22)

But when I came home, I, like, I had burned every bridge with her family. I couldn't go live with her. We didn't have a place of our own, so my uncle, he let me sleep on the couch there at his house, and. And then I was just, like, I was determined to get back on my feet and do things the right way.

A (61:37)

So what did you do? Where did you start?

B (61:38)

It was Crazy.

A (61:40)

Re entering society, I can imagine was probably.

B (61:43)

But I had three felony convictions. And again, I had been told like, you can't do, you can't do. But the thing was, is, like, I was like, they're going to have to prove it this time because I've been telling myself I can't all this time, and nobody else had told me I could. I can't. So, like, like I, like I was telling myself no before. Other people were telling me no. So I was like, I'm done doing that. They're gonna have to tell me I can't get a good job. They're gonna have to tell me I can't do this. So what I did was I, I, I started, like, doing some personal development stuff, like with a YouTube and stuff like that. And I decided I was gonna, you know, start talking different. I was gonna start, you know, doing things differently that I could control. And I didn't have a whole lot at that time. I had no money, no clothes, no car, bar. But my uncle let me sleep on his couch. And I asked my cousin one day, I said, hey, man, can I. Can I borrow your suit? And he started laughing his ass off at me because he is 6 foot 2. Like 3. There's a lot of people in my story that's 6 foot 2, apparently. I don't know if they're actually 6 foot 2, but that sounds good. Mention that. Yeah, that's the measurement I'm giving them. But anyway, he actually is 6 foot 2 and a pretty stocky guy. So when I asked to borrow his suit, he laughed. And I was like, look, dude, I need this. I wish you were my size, but you're not. That's the suit that's available. This is the one I need. So I put this suit on and I said, you know what? I'm gonna start, I'm gonna start showing up to places that I think would give me an opportunity if they would just talk to me, right? And I'm gonna go there without, because I could fill out the application at the kiosk, but every single time I get to this box that says felon or not, I have to check it. And if I do check it, I never get the next step right. So I said, all right, I'm. I'm gonna go in. So what I did, my very first stop, Kale, I showed up at the Camden Walmart, okay, in this big ass suit, and I marched myself all the way back to layaway, because that's where you would go if you had an interview. At the time, and I told the lady back there at the layaway section, I said, my name is Robert Jones, I'm here for my 11 o' clock interview. She said, sir, we don't have any interviews scheduled for today. I'm like, dang, bro, like in my mind I'm like, not one interview. This is freaking Walmart, bro. Like, dang. But I was like, I was like, oh, I'm sorry, I did. I have my, my interview was scheduled for 11 o', clock, but no worries, I'll just have a seat here on this bench and I'll wait. Now what she didn't know is like, I scheduled my interview for 11 o'. Clock.

A (63:54)

Like you actually had one. No, you made it up.

B (63:57)

I scheduled it. I didn't confirm it with anybody there, but I scheduled it for 11 o' clock so she couldn't tell me that I didn't have one because I was convinced that I did. So she goes to the back. I look, I think I sat there for like 40 minutes. It was probably more like 14 minutes. But this manager comes and he like peeks around the corner. I called him though, I seen him, we made eye contact and as soon as he seen me, he walked back around and he was like, Mr. Jones, come with me. So we go into the back, we do an interview. What I never thought about was when I got released, it was October 16th of 2007 and Walmart was hiring for seasonal help for Christmas at the time, right? So he's like, well, we do need help seasonally, but the problem is it's temporary and it's only going to be part time hours. And I was like, yeah, that's fine with me, you know? And he was like, all right, well we're going to go ahead and bring you on and we're going to put you in the electronics department. So I'm like, wait a minute, I just got this job everybody told me I couldn't get. Now granted, it's Walmart, I get it. It's not like the most glory. But to me you couldn't tell me.

A (65:00)

Shit like everyone told you you couldn't. You weren't going to be able to do that.

B (65:03)

Exactly.

A (65:03)

And you've already started.

B (65:04)

Exactly.

A (65:05)

Right.

B (65:06)

So now they put me in the electronics department and they're telling me in the same breath that I'm h eventually going to be fired. But I'm like, I went the extra mile for this interview, showing up in a suit that was way uncomfortable. Where else can I get uncomfortable? And how else could I You know, maybe prove myself to them. So I started learning. My responsibility was to sell TVs at the Camden Walmart. And so I started learning everything I could about these TVs. We only had one computer. My cousin did online schooling, so I had to wait for him to finish his online schooling. And then I would go on the computer and learn everything I could about TVs to sell them, to just know about them enough.

A (65:39)

You don't think that you need to know anything about TVs, just like, sell things.

B (65:42)

But if somebody asked me a question, I wanted to be able to answer it. And when somebody asked me a question and I couldn't answer it, I was like, that will never happen again around that topic, right?

A (65:51)

Okay.

B (65:51)

So I would always pursue an answer and understanding of whatever it was that they were asking. Because if it was important to a consumer, then it has to be an important thing for me to know, right? So. So I would just learn everything I could about the TVs. Now here's the thing that that changed probably the Most is the TVs were all screwed up. The more I Learned about the TVs, I learned that they shouldn't have this fuzzy picture that we were seeing. And they were all out of order size wise and stuff like that just looked a hot mess, right? So I was like, what can I do to fix this? So I started looking into the wiring and everything they had set up back there, and I got pretty confident that I could fix the problem. But I brought it up to my department manager. He was like, yeah, we're probably gonna go through, you know, something at some point to fix that. I was like, nah, it ain't gonna work for me. I'm trying to sell these TVs, you know, so. So I stayed overnight and I rewired the entire TV wall off the clock without any permission from anyone.

A (66:42)

You just did it?

B (66:43)

I just did it. Cleaned them all off, put them all in the right order, made sure they were all running the same loop. Right. I came in the next day. Everything was freaking beautiful. It looked perfect. All the TVs were stocked properly. And I started what I. Here's the first moment in my life where the mic mindset of abundance over scarcity really played out for me, is I started teaching all the other associates everything I knew about the TVs as well.

A (67:06)

That you self taught?

B (67:07)

Yes, because I could have kept it all to myself. And then like, well, Bobby's the smartest person about TVs, or we could sell the hell out of these TVs if we all know a lot about these TVs, but why?

A (67:17)

There's no incentive, is there? There's no.

B (67:18)

Like in one of the things. And then one of the things that I was. I was learning in the personal development space, I started listening to a guy named Brian Tracy, okay? And Brian Tracy had this basically this extra mile mindset which he described as, your success in life will be in direct proportion to what you do after you do what you are expected to do. And I was like, bro. So it was like. To me, it was like. He would describe it as like every hour after 40 that you put into your career is an investment into the progression of your career. Career. Right. Now, I'm sure he was meaning that in more of a corporate world than Walmart as a sales associate. But I interpreted it the way I interpreted it, so. But what was crazy is I look back at that moment of that TV wall. It was. It was probably one of the most pivotal moment moments in my life of change. Because what happened next was we sold every. We sold out of every TV within the next two weeks. And we broke every record in sales that Walmart and the electronics department ever had.

A (68:18)

Did they credit that to you?

B (68:20)

So the store manager comes over because first of all, we would have lines Kale at 8pm when they were unloading trucks. We'd have lines of people around the electronics departments just in hope that the TV that they wanted was on the trucks being unloaded because we didn't have any TVs, right? That's how much we were sold out of TVs. Okay? The store manager, Chow, at the time, a lot of people know Chow Hung Chow was his name. And he came over to the department and he said, what is going on? And everybody, including the department manager was like this fricking guy and pointed at me. He took me aside and he said, we're gonna do something special with you. And they made me a manager. So listen, check this out. Two months after being released from prison, suddenly I'm now a customer service manager at the front end of Walmart, which again, is not a glorified management position. Position. But let me tell you something. Just like I said before, you couldn't tell me.

A (69:16)

Did they know you were a felon?

B (69:18)

No, no. Listen, what's crazy is it's a small community. They. They would find out, obviously, you know what I'm saying? Because people would come in there and be like, Bob, what the hell? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, so it got. I mean, I know they found out at some point. But you know, when I always tell people, if you're able to produce results, people will look past. Pastor passed.

A (69:38)

So you took the management position. And it wasn't seasonal at that point.

B (69:41)

Oh, I was made a full time, you know, manager of the front end of Walmart. Yeah.

A (69:46)

For how long?

B (69:47)

I was in that position for probably about, probably about a year.

A (69:51)

Okay.

B (69:52)

And then they promoted me. I got a position called an inventory supervisor. So what was cool is I was leading. I was learning a lot of different areas of Walmart. And so they put me in the back room and I was learning everything about how to manage inventory. And I had a team that I was managing back there.

A (70:07)

Okay.

B (70:07)

And then the last promotion they gave me, so I was at Walmart for about four years and they made me a zone merchandise supervisor, which is the last hourly position before salary, which would require another criminal background check. Now, what was interesting about this time is I was overseeing electronics, I was overseeing hardware, and I was overseeing sporting goods, which sold guns.

A (70:29)

And you're not supposed to be around guns.

B (70:31)

I'm not even allowed to own a gun. Like, I'm overseeing the department that sells guns.

A (70:36)

Right.

B (70:36)

So I kept avoiding the managers above me, kept telling me, like, you got to get your, your, your license to sell guns. I kept avoiding it because I'm like, this ain't going to go well. Right. So I kept delegating that out to other people. I'm like, I just made sure, like anybody in that department, like, as soon as they got hired, they got that certification or that so that I didn't have to have that conversation. But it's, it's interesting because I actually got fired from Wall Street, Walmart. It was policy stuff. It was kind of dumb. You know, it's, it's one of those things that, like, I was wrong. They were wrong. Like, it was kind of, it was kind of messed up both ways. I could have done better for them, but I needed getting fired from Walmart and I wasn't making a whole lot of money. So in the interim between being fired at Walmart and my next job, I sold everything I had. But in that time, my wife and I got a. Got a trailer of our own in the trailer park. And I remember when we got our first trailer. Kale, again, like I said, you couldn't tell me shit when I was on the Man. I have my own home.

A (71:38)

Yeah.

B (71:38)

What do you mean? I have my own home. So it was me, my wife and my, my youngest or my daughter at the time. And it was a two bedroom trailer in Canterbury Homes. And I remember we were sitting on the front stoop and I said to my wife, I said, baby, I could live here for the rest of my life with you. And she was like, this will do for now. I was like, like, hey, yeah. I was like, dang, she thinks I could do better than this. I was like, all right, all right, challenge accepted. You know, so. And we, you know, we kind of moved up. We were like, we had the biggest trailer in the trailer park, you know what I'm saying? By the end of that journey. But, but I got fired. And then I found this job on Craigslist to kind of date it.

A (72:15)

Okay.

B (72:16)

Passing out flyers for this roofing company out of Smyrna. And I was, I told my wife, I was like, baby, this will do for now, until I can find a better job. This was right at Christmas time. I was like, I gotta get something to pay the bills. And she was working too. And so that was 16 years ago now. And I never left the roofing industry.

A (72:36)

So we went from passing out flyers to starting your own company.

B (72:40)

I went. So I did really well. They call it canvassing in the industry. And what you do is you go around, you set up estimates for salespeople to run behind you. I did really good at that. Then I got into sales, and sales was. Sales changed my life too, because it was the first time where it was like, yo, you're going to be paid 100 commission, which means if you don't sell nothing, you don't make nothing. But I'm like, but if I sell a lot, I'm gonna make a lot. They're like, you're gonna make a lot. And I did, man, I. I made more money than I ever seen in my life in sales. And. Yeah, but the problem was, is the roofing industry standards were so low that I'm in houses promising people that things are going to be great, and then they would show up just like, you know, with no pride to what we were doing. And, and, and it just like, it ate at me because, like, it wasn't aligning with the promises that I was making inside home. So I was like, I can't keep doing this.

A (73:26)

You're talking about the roofers that would actually physically come do the work.

B (73:28)

Correct.

A (73:29)

They were not holding up to the standards that you were sort of presenting.

B (73:31)

Exactly.

A (73:32)

So you wanted to start your own company.

B (73:34)

Yes.

A (73:34)

And that's what you did. So what did you do to start Brightside?

B (73:37)

So bright side was started. It was Very interesting, because I didn't even have, like, I didn't have a truck. First of all, I've never done a roof my life, okay? I only sold them through this business, but my cousin and my uncle had always been in the trade. So I went to them and I was like, guys, I think we could do this. It doesn't look. I mean, we could definitely do better than what these other companies are doing, right? And so, like, at first, it was just, we'll all be able to pay our bills right? And better than we probably are right now. So we got into it, and it started going really, really well. And then.

A (74:07)

Trust you right off the bat, it was a risk.

B (74:10)

It was a risk, but, you know, it was. Was they. They had been in the trades, and if you know anything about, like, people in the trades, like, it's just up and down forever, you know, like, until you get out of that cycle, you know, so you're. You're. I think. I think they were optimistic about it, which kind of comes into the name Bright side, you know, because roofing is not something that people get excited about. So our slogan in the beginning was, no one likes replacing their roof, so look on the bright side.

A (74:33)

That's cute.

B (74:34)

Yeah, it works.

A (74:35)

It worked.

B (74:36)

But the better we got, the more we realized how much better we could get. And at Northstar just kept, like, kept aligning. And, you know, I'm. I'm. I could stand on concrete ground, like bedrock and tell you, we are the best roofers in Delaware, period. And when you have that level of conviction, it is different. Business is different because you operate from a place of moral obligation and responsibility to others instead of just, I want your money.

A (75:02)

Right?

B (75:02)

Because, see, I'm. If I'm the best option, then I owe it to you to have the conversation better. I owe it to you. You to make sure that you understand that while other people might be able to do it for cheaper, they can't do it as good. And I will explain that difference and let you make the decision, but understand that you will be sacrificing if you go with a cheaper option, and you'll probably end up spending more long term. Right? But all of these conversations, my branding, responsibility, getting that. Getting that logo in front of more people becomes. Becomes a responsibility because I know that the alternative is they're going to be in the jaws of my competitors. And I respect and appreciate anybody that's out there working their butt off to build a business, but I'll make this, like, kind of a thing for any roofer that's listening. Do better like you can. There's opportunities, there's ways, there's tons of different things that's, that's a resource for you to do better and be better. And that bar that the industry operates at is way too low.

A (76:03)

But what have been some of the obstacles, we'll say, in starting your business? Because I think that so often people, whether they're former felons or ex convicts or whatever, I think that people never know how to start a business or where to begin and what the obstacles they're going to face are. And obviously it's different along the way.

B (76:20)

But yeah, I, I want to say this. I think sales, sales is super important and people don't understand how valuable sales is. If you're, if you're going to be a business owner, I would encourage you to learn a sales process so that you can teach it and know it. Because nothing happens in a business until a sale is made.

A (76:36)

How do you, how do you learn about the sales process? Yeah, I mean, this would also be good for me.

B (76:40)

Whatever it is, just, just learn the process and be specific about asking for the business. There's a lot of people that get into sales and they're great at like presenting the offer right, but they don't actually ask for people to make a decision decision. And if you can, if you can have the courage to do that, then the ask alone will produce more results. And the more that you do it, the better you'll get at doing it at scale to a point where you can, I always say, like your sweet spot should be out of 10 sales conversations, you should be closing at least three of them. Okay.

A (77:19)

Okay.

B (77:19)

Now if you're, most of the time and the businesses, the, it can change with different industries, but for the most part, if you're closing at 50% or more, you're probably underpriced. Right? You want some resistance in your sales process because if you're, if you're not getting any sales resistance, then you're, you're, you're cheap. And you know, the market determines that. People are like, well, I don't have to be more. Well, the market determines that because if your value is being perceived well enough, then you should be charging a little bit more. And everybody's tax time is valuable and you get to assign, you know, the price to the, the services that you offer. And you know, so 30% is really a great target because if you're selling 20% well, then maybe you might be too, too, you know, high or you really need to define your sales processes a little bit better, because the more dialed in that process gets, the more accurate your pricing can become. Because if you look leave your pricing vulnerable to your sales skills, then the data is skewed. Right?

A (78:24)

Yeah. Yeah.

B (78:25)

And the more that you. The more that you charge, the better you got to be at sales. Now, what's interesting is, and Alex Hormozi has a quote that goes around is like, selling something that's $50,000 is easier than selling something at $500. And to a certain degree, that's true. But that's because at $50,000, when you're talking about something that you're selling at $50,000, you're going to prepare the conversation better. You're going to have the conversation better, which is why it can produce better results. And you're also usually talking to an informed buyer. If they're able to spend $50,000 on something, they know what the value is in the thing, you know, and have probably invested in themselves quite a few times so that they can. They're accustomed to dropping some pennies on themselves as well.

A (79:07)

Do you think that your experience in crime and also your experience at prison, like, sort of shaped your work ethic today? Do you feel like that had anything to do with the mentality that you have now?

B (79:19)

Yeah. I mean, I think you definitely learn how to be resourceful through that experience. And in business, that's very important. Like, you know, one of the things I. We've done some really creative things, but one of the things that stands out in this moment is, like, when you see bright side job sites, you're going to see a big black dumpster with bright side logos all over them. Right. Those aren't our dumpsters.

A (79:38)

They're not.

B (79:38)

They're not. I went to different dumpster companies, and I was like, here, I will give you every dumpster for every single job. But here's what I ask of you. I want black dumpsters that you'll use for our job sites. I'll pay to have our lettering put on them. I'll even buy the dumpsters if you want me to. And one of the dumpster companies I spoke to took me up on the offer, and they said, you don't have to buy the dumpsters. We will. I said, all right. And we've been doing it ever since. Now that's my definition of being resourceful.

A (80:02)

Right.

B (80:02)

Because now to the public, it looks like I have tons of dumpsters out there. It just proves to. It just goes to the credibility of the company when they see that. But I did it without spending the same amount of money that another company who's like, I need to get a truck and dumpsters is going to spend. So I was able to keep that money in house and be able to invest it on another thing. So I think being resourceful is, you know, being creative and leveraging relationships in a different way that you might think.

A (80:27)

So now you do public speaking, too, or you've. You've done for some time.

B (80:31)

Yeah.

A (80:31)

Do you talk about the, The. Your story and then also, you know, starting bright side, or is it kind of like a sales course? Like something.

B (80:39)

I do a lot more sales training than I do anything else. I'm very passionate about the sales process in general because I do think that, you know, first of all, I think that it can change a lot of people's lives. So I feel like, you know, if I'm. If I'm really looking to help people get out of their own way and the people that were stuck in the. The beliefs that they were stuck in, this is a vehicle that can be used for that.

A (80:58)

Right.

B (80:58)

You know, so. So that's why I've leaned into it. And also, I think, you know, it's complementary to me teaching new salespeople that we hire and bring into our company. If I'm better at sales and better at training sales, the better that they're going to be able to produce results. And by the way, you know, going back to, like, the lessons of growing a business, that was the moment that was the biggest jump for us in our business was you're taught when you get into, like, personal development and business, they're like, well, delegate the things that you don't like doing and aren't good at. Right? But people never say, delegate the things that you love to do and are great at, which will eventually have to happen.

A (81:35)

Like, what do you mean?

B (81:36)

Can you give me an example? For example, when I started Brightside, like, I hired an admin person because I didn't want to deal with the phone calls, right? And talking on the phone and. And like the inbound stuff and people trying to sell me, I want her to gatekeep that and keep that away from me. Project management, having somebody on the project, running materials and just overseeing the project, right. Like, it was cool, but I didn't really like doing it. And I knew that I could do better things with my time in both of those situations. But when it came to how to scale, I love selling. I'm great at selling. So I thought that I Should keep doing that. And yet once I stepped back and taught other people how to do it for me and for the company, that's when we made our biggest jump in growth. And in 2019, we were. Delaware Business Times recognized Brightside as one of the fastest growing businesses in Delaware because of that move at that time, because we were at like, I want to say, like 1.7 million. And just that decision alone jumped us to 3 million.

A (82:38)

So what are you suggesting? I should take a step back from podcasting and teach other people how to do it?

B (82:42)

No, no, no, no. That's not what I'm saying. But what I am saying is.

A (82:45)

Kidding.

B (82:46)

What, what I am saying is right, like, you know, in, in order to, in order to scale and grow in a traditional business. Right. There are things that, when you do get to this point, what, what I realized was, is I'm better. Like, that was something that I was better at training because I was enthusiastic about it. So when I got into these situations where I was like, I need to train a new salesperson person, it there was not as much resistance as there was when I'm like, trying to train somebody on how to handle the admin stuff. I don't like that I'm not good at it. Why should I be training them on how to do it?

A (83:20)

Right.

B (83:20)

You know what I mean? So, like, the, the, the compatibility of being able to bring people on around the things that you love and are good at is just. It works out better because those are the things that you're going to be more passionate about teaching them too.

A (83:35)

No, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes a of lot of sense.

B (83:37)

The North Star for me, if there ever becomes an exit for me with Brightside, Brightside will continue on. It will never change into something else, a different name or anything like that. And I will always make sure it's best for my team members before I do anything. I don't care what the number is. Yeah. Because one of the things I, I, I carry the most pride about with my story is I never left over that name. That brand carries a lot of pride for me, but also a lot of people know bright side because they know me and vice versa. Versa.

A (84:05)

Right.

B (84:05)

Right. So even if it went to a different ownership, if it changed standards, that's going to be a reflection of me because not everybody's going to know it changed hands. And so it's going to be a reflection. What I was getting at with that, the pride around me never leaving Dover is like my robbery charge was on 13 in Dover. My business is on Route 8 in Dover. And I want that to be a message of inspiration for anybody listening is like, you don't always have to leave town to restart. You don't always have to, to like, you know, run away from something. Like if you give enough time and consistency, you can redeem yourself. And what's great now is like we donate four roofs per year to Central Delaware Habitat for Humanity. That's all downtown Dover, New Street, Queen street, right division. Like our charitable efforts are impacting. I, I was born in Kent General Hospital a few blocks over. So that means something to me because I took from this community for a long time, long time. And now I get to get. Now I get to give back to it.

A (85:01)

I love that. I think we should end it on that note because I feel like that is the message that people need to take away. I also would love for you to share where people can find you, where people can find your business. Obviously over Delaware, but like socials, websites, anything like that.

B (85:14)

If you're in Delaware. Know the name Bright side? No, for me, actually the, the social media is typically Mr. Brightside. I didn't pick it, it picked me. But yeah. So Mr. Brightside in a few different variations on TikTok, tok, Instagram, on Facebook, I'm Bobby Jones. And that's probably where I do the most business and, and communicate with people the most. So I'd be happy to connect.

A (85:36)

Thank you. Thank you for coming on.

B (85:37)

Of course. It was my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. Pluto TV has thousands of free movies and TV shows. Free.

A (86:20)

This is the mantra.

B (86:22)

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A (86:38)

Huzzah.

B (86:40)

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A (86:42)

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B (86:42)

You're welcome. I'm Justin Sylvester. And I'm Blakely Thornton. Join us for yesterday's the podcast where we break down the most pivotal pop culture moments in history and give them the queer love that they deserve. The things that got us riled up during dial up, those makeouts that should have been breakouts and the drops that were cemented in pop. I'm talking Bennifer, Tyra versus Naomi, Tom Cruise jumping on that couch and so much more. So please rate us, subscribe to us on Apple podcast, Spotify or anywhere you get audio related content. We also take Venmo and Cash, app ach or credit card number as well. We're malleable, you know, we're gay today.