From Insecure to Secure: How to Rewire Your Love Life with the Love Doc Dr. Sarah Hensley

Summary

Podcast Summary: Barely Famous – "From Insecure to Secure: How to Rewire Your Love Life with the Love Doc Dr. Sarah Hensley"

Host: Kail Lowry
Guest: Dr. Sarah Hensley, Clinical Psychologist
Date: October 24, 2025

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Overview

This episode of "Barely Famous" dives deep into attachment theory with Dr. Sarah Hensley, a clinical psychologist specializing in relationship science. Kail and Dr. Hensley break down the science behind attachment styles, how childhood experiences shape adult relationships, and practical paths from insecure to secure connection. The conversation is honest, relatable, and unafraid to tackle raw truths from both science and personal life stories.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Dr. Hensley’s Background and the Basics of Attachment (00:31–02:06)

• Dr. Hensley shares how her journey from uncertain undergrad to PhD led her to study social psychology, focusing on romantic relationships as her niche.
• Clarifies her role as a researcher and coach, not a clinician, but emphasizes expertise in attachment assessment.

What is Attachment Theory? (02:06–04:04)

• Definition: Attachment theory, created by John Bowlby in 1958, explains how early childhood experiences shape subconscious blueprints for closeness and influence adult romantic behaviors.
• Key Period: The foundation is set from ages 0-5, but later experiences can still have an impact.

“Our earliest childhood experiences ... give us these blueprints about what it means to be us and what it means to be close to someone. And those blueprints live in our subconscious, and then we carry them into adulthood.” – Dr. Sarah Hensley [02:06]

The Four Main Attachment Styles (04:04–06:42)

• Secure: Formed by emotionally attuned caregivers who model healthy boundaries and emotional repair.
• Anxious (Anxious Preoccupied): Stemming from inconsistent emotional attunement (“intermittent reinforcement”).
• Avoidant (Dismissive Avoidant): Rooted in emotional neglect or families that minimized emotional expression.
• Fearful Avoidant (Disorganized): Combination of anxious and avoidant behaviors, often the result of childhood trauma.

“You can be over here just in the anxious space... or you can be all over the place... that's fearful avoidance.” – Dr. Sarah Hensley [06:42]

How to Identify Your Attachment Style (06:42–09:18)

• Examining childhood experiences, comfort with emotional vulnerability, and conflict resolution styles are key predictors.

“How do you handle conflict? Do you tend to get maybe reactive? ... Do you kind of freak out and shut down and run away?” – Dr. Hensley [06:04]

• Kail self-identifies as “fearful avoidant,” leading to a personal exploration of the style's roots and behaviors.

Moving from Insecure to Secure Attachment (09:18–13:22)

• Insecurity manifests as a dysregulated nervous system around intimacy.
• Childhood “blueprints” drive anxious people to seek constant closeness, while avoidants pull away; fearful avoidants oscillate between both.
• Healing involves rewiring how the nervous system responds to emotional closeness, often disrupted by trauma.

“The hallmark of an insecure style is a very dysregulated nervous system around intimacy.” – Dr. Hensley [06:57]

Therapeutic Approaches for Attachment Healing (13:44–18:01)

• Traditional talk therapy often focuses on awareness, but real change requires capacity-building: actively training mind and nervous system for new responses.
• Emotional processing, “metacognitive” (thought-challenging) skills, and somatic work are core strategies.
• EMDR can help dissociate trauma from emotional responses, especially for “shock trauma;” complex trauma may require broader approaches.

“What I have found a lot of other people's approaches really lack is that capacity building where they give you a lot of awareness... but I don't know how to change it ... Your nervous system has become wired to behave this way.” – Dr. Sarah Hensley [13:49]

Parenting and Building Secure Attachment in Children (18:36–22:44)

• Empathy, emotional attunement, clear boundaries, and consistency are essential.
• Real-world parenting scenarios illustrate how dismissing or acknowledging emotions shapes attachment blueprints.

“An emotionally attuned mother would ... actually acknowledge the experience that the child is having and the emotions ... That's what attunement is.” – Dr. Hensley [19:02]

• Dr. Hensley candidly discusses her own struggles as a parent facing personal crisis and the intergenerational impact of trauma.

Trauma, Parenting Impact, and Adult Attachment (25:30–30:04)

• Clarifies the distinction between inconsistent parenting (impact) and direct trauma.
• Highly traumatic upbringings (abuse, neglect, addiction in caregivers) greatly increase the likelihood of fearful avoidant attachment.
• Subconsciously, we seek familiar patterns in partners, attempting to “rewrite” our childhood endings.

“The subconscious seeks the familiar. It views the familiar as safe ... well, let me try to repeat the pattern and see if I get a different ending.” – Dr. Hensley [28:04]

Relationship Dynamics—Breadcrumbing, Role Switching, and Personal Healing (28:23–39:32)

• “Breadcrumbing”—giving inconsistent attention—is common in dismissive avoidants and relationships with power dynamics.
• Fearful avoidants may switch between being anxious or avoidant depending on the partner.
• Dr. Hensley shares her own story of breakdown, faith, loss, and recovery, reinforcing the science with lived experience.

“If their partner's more distant, [fearful avoidants] get more anxious ... But if someone is too close ... that’ll make the partner be more avoidant and back up for self-protection.” – Dr. Hensley [30:15]

Practical Tools for Rewiring Attachment (43:18–44:37)

• Healing requires daily “muscle memory” practice with emotional tools (like grounding exercises and reframing thoughts) even when calm, so they’re available under stress.

“You have to use these skills throughout moving through life every day because you have to get muscle memory.” – Dr. Hensley [43:41]

The Role of Children and Repetition of Patterns (44:54–46:54)

• Kail opens up about seeking love and safety in her children and why trauma survivors may repeat relational patterns, even through multiple partners or parental setups.
• Dr. Hensley emphasizes self-compassion: “You don’t know what you don’t know.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Changing Others:
  “If you’re in that mindset of how do I change my partner, you’re gonna fail. Because you can’t change other people. You can only work on yourself...” – Dr. Hensley [48:20]

• On Love and Soulmates:
  “I do because I’m married to mine. But I think it’s sort of like you have to be ready for it. And I do believe in the law of attraction.” – Dr. Hensley [73:48]

• On Narcissism vs. Attachment:
  “Most people just have insecure attachment. But inherently it can feel manipulative ... but it’s what’s behind that ... Narcissism is intention. Insecurely attached people aren’t usually trying to be hurtful, they’re operating from trauma responses.” – Dr. Hensley [60:21]

• On Self-Blame:
  “You can’t blame yourself. You don’t know what you don’t know. You go into those relationships with good intentions and you’ve had beautiful children come out of them.” – Dr. Hensley [46:54]

• On Awareness vs. Change:
  “That awareness equals change. Awareness of a problem does not mean that you can change it because these things are tied to how your nervous system functions... your trauma responses are going to override your intentions.” – Dr. Hensley [69:15]

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Important Timestamps & Segments

• 00:31–02:06 – Introduction to Dr. Hensley and Attachment Theory
• 04:04–06:42 – Explanation of Four Attachment Styles
• 09:18–13:22 – How Childhood Patterns Lead to Insecure Styles
• 13:44–18:01 – Healing Methods for Rewiring Attachment
• 18:36–22:44 – Parenting for Secure Attachment
• 28:04–30:49 – Why We Repeat Familiar Patterns in Relationships
• 39:32–43:18 – Dr. Hensley’s Personal Healing Story
• 43:18–44:37 – “Muscle Memory” for Emotional Regulation
• 48:20–51:25 – Focusing on Self-Healing in Relationships
• 60:21–65:41 – Narcissism vs. Avoidant Attachment
• 73:48–76:14 – Soulmates & the Law of Attraction

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Concluding Tips from Dr. Hensley

1. Pursue Attachment Security: Research attachment theory and seek a therapist or coach with expertise in this area.
2. Focus on Yourself: Real change comes from working on how you show up, not trying to “fix” a partner.
3. Practice Emotional Skills Daily: Build muscle memory for grounding, emotional regulation, and thought reframing in calm moments so they’re there during conflict.
4. Change is a Process: Awareness is not enough—rewiring your brain and nervous system takes deliberate, consistent effort over time.

“Look into attachment, focus on doing the healing work yourself.” – Dr. Hensley [48:20]

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Where to Find Dr. Hensley

• Website: thelovedoc.com
• Podcast: The Love Doc Podcast
• Social: @DrSarahHensleyLoveDoc on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube

“You have to do capacity building. You have to build your capacity inside of your mind and inside of your own nervous system to fundamentally show up differently in your relationships over time.” – Dr. Sarah Hensley [69:15]

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the show.

[B]

Things are going to get weird.

[A]

It's your fave villain, K. And you're.

[B]

Listening to Barely Famous.

[A]

Welcome back to Barely Famous Podcast. Today I'm joined by Dr. Sarah Hensley, a clinical psychologist known for breaking down attachment styles, toxic patterns, and what healing actually looks like. I'm excited to break down attachment styles in this episode, so. So let's get into it.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Dr. Sarah Hensley, thank you for joining us on Barely Famous Podcast.

[C]

Thank you for having me.

[B]

Of course. So you.

[A]

Your background is in psychology, and you have a PhD in psychology. What inspired you to go into psychology?

[C]

Well, I just kind of picked a random major in undergrad. I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do, but I really loved my intro to psych course, and I was already a sophomore, undeclared. And I was just like, okay, we'll do this. I had no idea what I was doing.

[B]

So what?

[A]

You don't have to get a PhD in psychology, though, right, to be a psychologist?

[C]

So there's. Psychology is actually like a really big discipline, and a lot of people don't know about sort of the other side of psychology. So we have about a third of the discipline is clinical, so they diagnose and treat people with severe mental illness. And then the other two thirds were researchers. So we have, like, cognitive psychologists, developmental psychologists, neuropsychologists, and then I'm a social psychologist. So social psychology is really the study of human behavior, and within that, romantic relationships is sort of my niche. Okay. So I'm not a clinician. I'm a researcher, a human behavior expert, and a coach. So it's a little bit of a different sort of avenue in psychology, but you can practice at the master's level as well. You just need a little bit more oversight and a little bit more training under someone.

[A]

So can you diagnose me or.

[C]

I don't do diagnoses, but attachment style isn't a mental health disorder. So I could assess your attachment style if you want to do. Yeah.

[B]

Can you?

[C]

Absolutely can.

[A]

But for people who are listening, what. What is an attachment style? What does that mean?

[C]

Yeah. So attachment theory was coined in 1958 by a guy named John Bowlby, and it has been extended and refined since 1958. So we have literally tens of thousands of empirical studies on attachment style, where essentially we have been able to show that our earliest childhood experiences kind of give us these blueprints about what it means to be us and what it means to be close to someone. And those blueprints Live in our subconsc, and then we carry them into adulthood and we play them out in our romantic relationships. So we've been able to really model attachment style as a predictor of behavior in relationships, and it does a very good job of predicting people's behavior.

[A]

So when you say like early development, what, how old are we talking? Like, are we talking like my toddler years are now shaping what I do in my romantic relationship?

[C]

Believe it or not, key attachment years are from 0 to 5 years old. So that's kind of like the foundation. So if you can imagine, like building a house, the foundation and the frame are to be zero to five years old. But then of course, you know, the things that happen to us after that can shape us and mold us to some degree. But the foundation is really sat there. So the big predisposition to whatever your attachment style is going to be is really from those early years when you're a toddler. Yeah, when you're 0 to 5, which.

[A]

Is kind of crazy, can you change your attachment style?

[C]

Well, absolutely. I would say it's not very common for someone to go from one insecure style to another insecure style, but it is very doable to go from an insecure style to secure, because that's what we're all kind of striving for is this secure attachment where we essentially can, you know, show up well in our relationships. We can solve conflict well, we communicate non critically, we can meet people's needs, we can show up respectful during conflict and really be able to navigate the difficulties of relationships.

[A]

Well, what are the main types of attachment styles?

[C]

Yeah, that's a good question. So there's four types that have been identified in the literature. So we have three insecure styles and then we have secure. So just to start with secure attachment, those folks usually had caregivers that were pretty emotionally attuned to their kids. So they were able to recognize when their kid was upset or needed some emotional support. And they were really good at giving that emotional support. And then they also demonstrated that, you know, if there's a conflict or a disruption, we talk through it, we have repair. We don't just kind of sweep it under the rug. Those parents were able to hold good boundaries with their kids. And then the parents of that child usually had a very quality romantic relationship themselves. So the parents were really modeling healthy relationship behavior to the kids. So then of course, that becomes their imprint, that relationships are respectful and reciprocal. And, you know, we talk through conflict instead of ignoring it or getting really reactive, things like that. And so they go out and they, you know, usually are pretty successful in romantic relationships. Relationships. And then we have sort of this insecure spectrum where on one side of the spectrum we have what we call attachment anxiety. So attachment anxiety makes you want to connect. It makes you want to pull your partner in, be close to your partner, seek intimacy. And then on the other side of the spectrum, we have attachment avoidance. So this is where people sort of like to keep their distance. They push their partner back. They don't want connection. They want more independence. And they really are more self directed, self focused versus relationship focused. And then we have fearful avoidance. And fearful avoidance has the whole attachment spectrum. So they have anxiety and avoidance. So you can be over here just in the anxious space. We call those people anxious, preoccupied. You can be over here in the avoidance space, we call those dismissive avoidance. And then you can have both sides of the spectrum. You can be all over the place. And so we call those fearful avoidance. And they each have a lot of unique qualities.

[A]

So how do I determine what I have?

[C]

Okay, so we look at predictors of attachment. They tend to be childhood experiences, obviously is the most weighted factor factor. Then we look at things like emotional intelligence, comfort with emotional vulnerability. Like, so how comfortable are you being open, revealing your deepest thoughts, feelings, you know, fears with your partner? We look at conflict related behaviors. This is another big weighted factor. So how do you handle conflict? Do you tend to get maybe reactive? Do you get anxious and want to figure it out right away? Do you need to step back and take space? Do you kind of freak out and shut down and run away? There's lots of different ways that people handle conflict. And the different attachment styles have their own unique way.

[A]

I think I'm the one with all of it.

[C]

All of it. Fearful avoidance.

[B]

Fearful.

[A]

What is it?

[C]

Fearful avoidance. That was my attachment style as well.

[A]

Okay, so how can someone like me or someone else that has an insecure attachment style move towards a secure attachment style?

[C]

Yeah, that's a really good question. So sort of the hallmark of an insecure style is a very dysregulated nervous system around intimacy. So for example, the anxious preoccupied person, they had what we call intermittent reinforcement in childhood. So they usually describe, I had a good childhood. My parents loved me. Both of my parents were stayed married. I mean, this is just the norm. But there was usually something that happened in childhood that made the emotional attunement kind of inconsistent for the child. So maybe it could be like mom was very emotionally available, but dad was very emotionally cold. So you got attunement from mom, but you didn't get it from dad. It could be that there was, like, a major stressor in the parent's life that sort of pulled them away from being able to give proper attunement to their kids. Like, somebody lost a job or somebody got sick, or grandma came to live with you, you know, and it kind of pulled the parents away from the kids. So they had an overall pretty good experience, but it was inconsistent enough to cause anxiety. Like, I don't know when my needs are going to be met. Right. And so that inconsistency causes anxiety. So inside of relationships, they're very anxious and they really are, like, very clingy, and they have a lot of needs, and they really want to be with their partner all the time. Like, their blueprint for intimacy is once we're together, we should always be together and we should do everything together. And we should, like, you know, kind of be attached to the hip. And unfortunately, they tend to attract dismissive avoidant people. So dismissive avoidance. They grew up with no emotional attunement, and they actually usually report a good childhood as well. So they're usually like, oh, my parents were. Stayed together. Like, everybody got along, had a good childhood. But then when we dig deeper, I'm like, would you go to your parents for emotional support? And they usually look at me kind of weird, like the deer in headlights, like, oh, I never would have talked to my parents about, like, my problems or, you know, hard things. And I say, well, why is that? And they're like, I don't. I don't know. It's just not what we did in our family. So usually the norm is for the dismissive avoidant that they had parents that were sort of instrumentally supportive, like, mom packed lunches, dad, you know, took them to sports practice and all of that stuff. But they were parents that just didn't do feelings. So really, like, if the child, the young child would express feelings, it would be like, oh, quiet down, you're fine line, you know, don't be upset. So there was a lot of dismissing of their emotions.

[A]

Okay?

[C]

And that's where we get the term dismissive avoidant. Because they grow up to dismiss other people's emotions. They are very uncomfortable with their own emotions and the emotions of other people. So they really keep their distance in relationships. Oftentimes their partner complains like, you don't give me enough attention. You don't prioritize me. You, you know, just care about yourself. You, you know, don't share your intimate you know, thoughts with me, they just like to keep their distance. I mean, they are very uncomfortable with close connection and intimacy. And then fearful avoidance, where you have sort of both sides, comes from childhood trauma. So we can have big T traumas, like abuse parent with a mental illness parent with a substance abuse issue, parents that went through a really nasty divorce. And kind of me, okay, I get that. It was me too. You know, I grew up with a bipolar father and a dismissive avoidant mother. And my dad was very unpredictable, had some rage episodes, very never knew what you were going to get from him, you know, and so when you have childhood trauma, it makes you very hyper vigilant person. So whether you know you're doing it or not, as a child with a dysfunctional parent, you learn to read people very quickly. Like you learn to read expressions. You learn to read the vibe of the room, right? Because if say dad is going to rage out, you want to look at his face and try to see, like, are there cues there? Right? That means that I'm safe or I'm not safe. And so fearful avoidance grow up. And they're. And they're very hyper vigilant. Like if I've never met a fearful avoidant that can't read somebody's emotion in like 2.5 seconds. Like, if you just know what someone is kind of feeling, thinking, like, and you can read a vibe very well. That's sort of the hallmark trait of fearful avoidance. But their hyper vigilance isn't always a good thing because sometimes they can make assumptions that aren't, you know, true. Like thinking your partner's mad at you when they're not really mad at you, or taking a little cue from your partner. Like if they take a deep sigh and you're like, oh, what's wrong? Why are you so frustrated? And they're like, I'm okay, you know, it's fine. And you know, so they can kind of poke and prod and on about these little cues, right? And really, you know, frustrate their partner. And then when it comes to getting intimacy, the fearful avoidant has a deep wound of betrayal. Because if you have childhood trauma, essentially what gets imprinted is I can't trust other people. Like, being close to people means potentially being hurt. Because that's what I saw growing up, right? My parent hurt me or my parents relationship was dysfunctional. So I imprinted that. Intimacy is very dangerous. It's unsafe, it's, you know, not reliable. And that's all subconscious. We're not walking around like, oh, wow. Yeah. Intimacy. Intimacy is so unsafe. Yeah, but we play that out in our relationships.

[B]

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[C]

Will often seek connection and then when they feel like they've been hurt or they can get kind of overwhelmed, they can push their partner away really hard and kind of shut down and sort of go inside of themselves, which is the norm for the dismissive avoidant. But for the fearful, they can go either way. They can be very anxious and clingy or they can push back and shut down down and sink into their own independence for self protection.

[A]

So then how does what types of therapies can help people change their attachment style?

[C]

I'm glad you reminded me that that was your original question. So the hallmark is that dysregulated nervous system around intimacy and anxious people are dysregulated when there's any space. Avoidant people are dysregulated when there's Too much closeness. Fearful avoidant is very dysregulated, kind of all the time. And so what I teach people to do is to build capacity for security. So what I have found a lot of other people's approaches really lack is that capacity building, where they give you a lot of awareness, like, okay, here are your patterns. This is what you do. And so people come to me and they're like, I know I tend to shut down during conflict. I know I tend to get really reactive. I know I tend to be too clingy. I know I tend to be too distant, but I don't know how to change it. I know I need to do something different. And I try, and maybe I can do it for a little while, but then quickly I revert back to all of my old patterns. Why does this happen? And I say, because your nervous system has become wired to behave this way in those situations. And that happened during your development because of the relationships with your caregivers. And so we have to work with the client individually on their nervous system to be able to, you know, process their own emotions, be comfortable processing their emotions. So if you're a dismissive avoidant, they suppress all their emotions. They don't deal with their emotions at all. And so if you can't deal with your own emotions, of course you're going to get triggered when someone else brings emotion to you. It's like. It's like trying to say, here's a basketball. This is your basketball. And I'm like, well, I don't know how to shoot a basketball. And they're like, okay, well, here's somebody else's basketball. Go shoot that. You know, it's like, if I can't shoot my own basketball, I'm not gonna be able to shoot another basketball. Same thing with emotions. If you can't process your own emotions, you can't deal with the emotions of other people. And anxious people, they don't suppress, they band aid. So they bring other people in to soothe them. They, like, if they can't get their partner to come sue them, then they call their mom, they vent to their friend, they shop, they eat, they do something else to try to soothe themselves. When really what I need, what I teach people to do and what they need to be able to do to be secure is really connect to the emotions in their body and be able to sit with the discomfort of whatever they're feeling, breathe through it, acknowledge it, and just allow the emotional process to complete. That's how the brain decides to let it go. And to actually drop into safety. And we also do a lot of mindset work with people. So we, you know, get people to use what we call metacognitive skills, which is being able to sort of observe your own thoughts, challenge them. Each attachment style has a lot of pretty ingrained core thought processes associated with their attachment.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And so you have to be able to learn to recognize those and challenge those, like the dismissal avoidant. Their thoughts are super predictable. They're usually like, I can't give you what you need. You need somebody else that's more emotional than me or this is so overwhelming. Why are you always starting drama? I don't like to fight. I just want things to be peaceful. So that sort of justifies why they don't participate in conflict. Right. Like you're being dramatic. Just get over it. You're being too sensitive. This isn't necessary. So their thoughts, like this is. You're bringing this unnecessarily to me. Makes them like it's the domino that starts the avoidance. Right. So we have to learn about our thought processes and really challenge them and really be aware of when we're telling ourselves these negative stories about our capacity or about our partner that really aren't true. So it's really mastering your mind and then mastering your nervous system with your emotions.

[A]

Have you heard of, what is it called, emdr?

[C]

Emdr?

[A]

Do you think that's helpful?

[C]

I do think it's helpful for people with trauma. So it is one of those things where the basis of the therapy is about sort of disconnecting your trauma from the emotional impact. So you can eventually be able to think about very traumatic things that happen to you without your nervous system responding in that dysreg. And so it's, it's. I'd say it works better for like shock traumas versus complex trauma, which attachment trauma is usually pretty complex trauma. It's multiple traumas sort of over and over and over again. Okay. But it still can be successful. So it's a really great adjunct therapy, I think, for anybody that's experienced trauma.

[A]

Okay. I didn't know that there was. I have cptsd.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

But I didn't know there was like a complex.

[C]

Yeah. So that's complex post traumatic stress disorder. And it's just a version of PTSD where you have experienced, you know, many complicated traumas over the course of your life or in your childhood. It's not like you got in a car accident and that's a one time sort of shock trauma. This is, you know, many instances where your nervous system either had too much or not enough. That's really what trauma is. When your nervous system says this is too much or this is not enough, enough.

[A]

So how could people parent their children in a way that would hopefully give their kids like a secure attachment style? Yes.

[C]

So empathy and attunement plus boundaries plus consistency.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

So, you know, a lot of people don't really know what emotional attunement is. I have to tell them because they just weren't parented with it so they don't know what it looks like. So I kind of give this example of like maybe you have a three year old little boy. I know you have a lot of boys.

[B]

I do have a lot of boys.

[C]

A lot of boys and one girl. Right. And so, you know, imagine you're a little Todd on the playground and little boy falls down, skins his knee, he's crying, mommy, mommy, mommy. You know, and so you go over there and you're like a dismissive, avoidant parent. Might be like, oh, you're fine, quit crying. That's just a little scrape and brush you off. Now get back out there and play. They really focus on like achievement and responsibility. Totally bypassed the kids emotions, didn't acknowledge them, shut them down, said, you know, you're fine, get up, go. An emotionally attuned mother would handle that very differently. They would say, oh buddy, you fell down. Oh, I know, that hurts, doesn't it? You're bleeding, you're safe, it's okay, let's go clean that up. You know, I understand. It does hurt, doesn't it? It stings, doesn't it? So you're really like actually acknowledging the experience that the child is having and the emotions that they might be having, like, oh, did that scare you? Right. So you're acknowledging their own emotional experience and that makes them sort of imprint this idea that, wow, okay. Part of being close to someone is sharing your emotions and trying to understand other people's emotions. That's what attunement is. And so, you know, if you have a parent that is inconsistent with that, that will cause the child to grow up with attachment anxiety. If you have a parent that is very dismissive and doesn't acknowledge those emotions, you're going to have a child that grows up with dismissive avoidance and then dysfunctional parents or parents that created trauma. There may have been some attunement mixed in there, but also with really scary moments or really dysfunctional behavior that causes the child to just not trust intimacy in general. So I always say it's empathy and attunement, which is trying to understand your child's perspective, trying to understand their emotions, but with good boundaries. That doesn't mean your kid walks all over you. It might be something like they're having a meltdown because they didn't get their. You didn't give them the right color cup. I mean, you know how kids are. Right. It's like one little thing when they're toddlers, and it's like, it's a total meltdown. So you could be like, buddy, I understand you want the green cup. I know that's disappointing. It's in the dishwasher. I hate that for you, but you're just gonna have to use the. The blue cup. And, you know, right. Here you go. Right, right. And then you just kind of stop. Right. But you acknowledge the emotion. You said it. You know, I understand you're disappointed because a lot of times kids are just looking for their viewpoint to be acknowledged.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And once their emotions are acknowledged, then they move them down.

[A]

Right?

[C]

Yeah. Right. Because it's. They're trying to communicate in the way that they know how, which oftentimes are just big emotions because they don't have the words to put to. To it. Like, oh, I'm so disappointed. I'm so frustrated.

[B]

Right.

[C]

No, they're just gonna be like, I don't want that cup. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And so if you can just give attunement empathy plus boundaries plus consistency and being consistent is. Is really key for kids.

[A]

That makes sense.

[C]

Yeah. It. It's. It's really hard as a parent. I mean, you know, it's exhausting. You know, they don't sleep when they're babies or sometimes toddlers. My kids didn't sleep till they were, like, four.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So, you know, I was exhausted. And then if you have rough relationships, like, my first marriage was a nightmare. It was very abusive. There was a lot of infidelity on his part, and I couldn't be a very attuned parent because I was always in crisis mode. I was always just trying to deal with. With the crisis that was on the table. And my older daughter, my kids are six years apart. She really suffered. And then her dad was an addict, and he died in 2020 when she was getting ready to turn 10. So, of course she has fearful avoidance. Right. And so does my youngest. And so we've had to do a lot of therapy and work on attachment, and it's been really beneficial because attachment is really shapeable, and that's the good news.

[A]

So it is Shapeable.

[C]

It is shapeable.

[A]

Let's talk about coffee for a second because I'm a big coffee and caffeine.

[B]

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[A]

What would you say the difference is between an impact that a parent has on a child and their attachment style versus trauma?

[C]

Yeah, so impact, I would say, is like just the inconsistency of like the anxious preoccupied. Right. So anxious preoccupieds almost always. I've never had one in my practice say, I didn't know I was loved, right? I didn't know I was loved. I knew I was loved. My parents said, I love you. My parents hugged me. My parents showed up. Right. It was just there were moments where maybe I really needed my parent and they were stressed out or they were too busy or they had to work a lot. And so there were these times where I was kind of loved, left to my own devices. But there was enough there that I still learned that intimacy and affection are part of relationships. And it's just that sometimes they want a little too much of that because the inconsistency made them afraid that they. That it could leave. Right. So they kind of fear abandonment, dismissive avoidance. Their trauma is neglect trauma, which depending upon the severity of it, can be. Be pretty impactful. Like if it's kind of minor, where parents maybe try to be emotionally supportive, but they just don't really know how, so they listen and. But maybe they just give, you know, generic advice like problem solving. They still showed up. They still said, here, I'm here, I care. They just didn't know how to really acknowledge emotion and focus more on the emotional experience than the problem solving aspect. And then some dismissive avoidance have more severe emotional neglect. So they were, you know, maybe even instrumentally neglected where their parents just were absent. So they were doing things on their own that were too early for their development. Like maybe they were four and like cooking eggs on the stove right. For themselves. And then we have. So it's definitely a spectrum where it can be maybe mild impact all the way up to something that the nervous system does consider traumatic. And for fearful avoidance, the nervous system almost always has had traumatic experiences in childhood.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I think I'm still feel. What am I?

[C]

Fearful avoidant.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So you might struggle to trust others, struggle to trust yourself. Usually have a history of picking partners that maybe aren't the best. Fearful avoidance are really attracted to drama and chaos whether they know it or not. It's a subconscious thing. Right. Like if you believe subconsciously that everybody's going to betray you, you, you're going to be attracted to people who give you subtle signs that they might betray you eventually.

[A]

Why is that?

[C]

It's because, you know, the subconscious seeks the familiar. It views the familiar as safe. It's sort of like the devil you know, versus the devil you don't. Right. And so the subconscious is like, well, let me try to repeat the pattern and see if I get a different ending.

[A]

So we're insane.

[C]

Yeah, I mean it's, it's controlled chaos.

[A]

Kale in the chaos. Just another episode. That's so funny. Have you heard of breadcrumbing in relationships?

[C]

I have.

[A]

Is that, is that associated with any type of attachment style?

[C]

Absolutely. The dismissive avoidant. Absolutely will breadcrumb you. They will breadcrumb you to death. And breadcrumbing is in, is intermittent reinforcement. So it's getting your needs met just a little bit. Enough for you to kind of hang on and have hope, but not enough for you to feel safe and happy inside of the relationship. So dismissive avoidance are famous, notorious. They always breadcrumb eventually in the dating phase. It's usually after the six month mark. That's when they start pulling back. That's when they start getting uncomfortable in the relationship with the intimacy, the closeness, any conflict, they start backing away. But then they'll throw out just enough little breadcrumbs for you to feel like, okay, maybe we're still connected, we're together, but this doesn't feel like it did in the beginning. And then in marriage they definitely do that to their partners. They're way too distant, but they do give just enough to just keep that partner hanging on, hoping that maybe they'll give more if they can, you know, say the right thing or do the right thing. And sometimes fearful avoidance that are really shut down in their dismissive side and they usually kind of react in opposition to partners. So fearful avoidance. If they're with somebody that's very anxious, they'll kind of want to back up from that. That doesn't feel good to them. So they might breadcrumb in that scenario. But if they're with somebody that's really avoidant. Like a dismissive avoidant. They'll be more anxious, so they'll be the one receiving the breadcrumbs. Crumbs. They can go either way.

[A]

What if I was breadcrumbed and then in my next relationship, then I breadcrumbed.

[C]

Yes. So you were the. In the first relationship you were the more anxious partner and in the second relationship you were the more avoidant.

[A]

So why does that happen?

[C]

So fearful avoidance, again, they just have the whole spectrum. It used to be called disorganized attachment because it is disorganized. Right. There's no consistent pattern of whether you will be anxious or avoidant.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

It's sort of like, like it just depends upon the usually what partner you're with and how they are behaving. Because fearful avoidance are always trying to access intimacy while avoid being hurt. So whatever that looks like based on the relationship is the way that they're going to act. So if their partner's more distant, they're going to get more anxious because they want the intimacy. But in a relationship, if someone is too close or if someone is giving them signs that they might hurt them or they have hurt them, that'll oftentimes make the partner be more avoidant and back up into their avoidance for self protection.

[A]

Okay, that sounds like me.

[C]

It's hard. It was me too. I totally get it.

[A]

And were you able to do like talk therapy to get through it and work on it?

[C]

I actually had like a little bit of a nervous breakdown in 2020 and I'm, you know, I'm not afraid to talk about it because I think it's more common than we think. It was more of a physical breakdown because of stress. Stress. My body just gave up essentially. So in 2020. Well, I got divorced in 2018. I was very trauma bonded to my first husband. I actually legally divorced him and then got back together with him in 2019 because, you know, death gasp, I guess. Right. And that ended very, very badly. It ended very violently with a protective order. And then we went through a very nasty custody battle that was extremely stressful. And then literally two weeks before we were supposed to have our final hearing, it got delayed. We ended up going to mediation for me to get some protections from his drinking because he was drinking and driving the kids and it was really bad. So got a few protections. But then he died two weeks later of OxyContin and alcohol overdose in his truck. And I had no idea he was using opioid at that time. I knew that the alcohol was the big issue in our marriage. But I think he had turned to opiates to try to come off of alcohol, and it just ended up being a very lethal combination. And then within that same time frame, my mom, who was my biggest supporter and always there for me and always there for my kids, she got diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. And my dad already had dementia and was in a wheelchair and was pretty immobilized. So I became the caregiver to both my parents. Parents during that time, I had just lost the father of my kids. So I was, you know, obviously really traumatized over that and the stress leading up to that. And then I was dating a dismissive avoidant partner for about a year and a half, off and on, and he just peaced out. You know, that's what dismissive avoidants often do in response to their partner's stress or illness or things. They get very uncomfortable with that they don't want to be a caregiver. They don't know how to handle people's emotions, so they kind of usually peace out, like they're the partner that's going to leave you if you get cancer. Right? That's just. That's part of their blueprint. They're so uncomfortable with anything that looks like weakness or emotional dependence. So I was sort of in a hole. And then my dog of 16 years had to be put down. So it was like this ever. It felt like everybody who was important to me was just being ripped away from me. And I ended up waking up one day with. With vestibular migraine. That was chronic for almost a year. So vestibular migraine is very. It's a weird diagnosis. It doesn't behave like regular migraines. You're, like, dizzy 247 and, like, blurry vision 24 7. So I basically couldn't function for, like, eight solid months. And it didn't fully resolve for about a year. So that was my sort of breakdown. My nervous system just went, we've had enough. We can't do any more of this. We're gonna give you this illness to put you in bed and make you slow down, because you've exhausted every resource that you have. Have. And so that's when I met Jesus. Because I was so hopeless, I had no hope. I really did want to die. But I had two kids who had just lost their other parent, and I was not going to do that to my children. So I was like, I have no choice. I have to live. But I don't know how I'm going to live if this never goes away because sometimes people get vestibular migraine and it just never goes away.

[A]

And they have to live with it.

[C]

They have to live with it forever. And so it's sort of like a medication trial and error and, and just, you know, trying different therapies and, and stuff to try to help. So God really met me where I was. I, I would say that I called myself a Christian, but I didn't really have a lot of faith. I just kind of like, yeah, yeah, Jesus. Okay, but when you have nothing, I mean, I was broke too. I spent all my money on the custody battle, you know, lost half the support for my kids because my they, you know, their parent died and I was in a really bad place financially as well. And so I just had no hope. But God met me where I was and lifted my spirit enough for me to start doing some deeper work. And yes, I was in therapy, but I also, I'm a scientist. So I kind of started digging into the science. Like, how do I heal my nervous system? Because I have had so much relational trauma that I have, I don't think I'm ever going to be able to have healthy relationships or healthy intimacy because I knew, knew I was part of the problem too. Even though I was in an abusive relationship, I kept coming back. I kept picking partners that could not love me right properly. And I wanted to be loved properly. My parents had a very, you know, dysfunctional relationship. And I just didn't want to go to my deathbed, not, you know, being able to find, you know, healthy love. And also I just needed to be able to function. I was very traumatized, very anxiety ridden, and it was definitely affecting my kids. And so I just started reading the literature. You know, I stumbled upon Alan Gordon's podcast, Tell Me about yout Pain. I stumbled upon Nicole Sacks work with her journaling methods. And I just started looking at some of the people that they were citing and going to their research and digging into the science. And I started working on my nervous system and doing a lot of exercises for true emotional processing and completion.

[B]

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[C]

What's really missing for people that they don't ever learn how to do sometimes even in therapy, is really, truly sit with their own emotional experience in the body. Because the language of the subconscious is in feeling of the body. So the tight chest, the pit in your stomach, the shaky hands, you know, the tears in your eyes, that's all the language of your subconscious mind trying to tell you what, what it's feeling, right? And you can only take the message and then therefore release the emotion if you allow it to come fully through the body. Feel it, accept it, not judge it. And I started doing that and I started really working on my mindset. I had a really bad victim mentality like oh, woe is me. All these things keep happening to me. I'm so oppressed. I'm so, you know, I just had such a bad deal in life, you know, and I was like, you know what? I'm tired of that. That's keeping me stuck. I started viewing myself as someone that could overcome it, someone that could thrive, someone that could grow and learn from my experiences and come out the other side an overcomer. And the shift in mindset, plus really working on my nervous system and emotional processing, it completely transformed who I was. And I put myself back on the dating market like a year later and I met my second husband. And he's the best thing that's honestly ever happened to me besides my kids and God. So. So he's actually the one that was like, you need to teach people how to do this. You have such a powerful story. And I was like, I don't know how to start a business. And he was like, well, I do. So he actually helped me start my business. And it's massively grown in the last three years, so I've been doing it.

[A]

What type of attachment style does he have, though?

[C]

He was a fearful avoidant as well. So he grew up, his dad was not in his life or was in his life extremely sporadically. His dad was a Vietnam vet and alcoholic. Their parents had a pretty dysfunctional marriage. They. His parents got divorced when he was like two. And then he just. His dad was just one of those like you sit on the porch and wait and they never show up type of dads. And when he was with his dad, there was a lot of drinking, a lot of like one time his dad was arrested and put in jail and he had to like go with his grandma. And you know, so there was lots of complex trauma, right. And then he grew up in poverty. So he, you know, a lot of times they like were squatting or they had limited access to food, no heat, you know, things like that. And then his mom was able to go back to nursing school. And so she's kind of an overcomer too. She kind of got herself out of poverty and was able to give him, you know, a pretty decent life. And he did have, you know, a very, a loving mother. So that was sort of a saving grace. But still it didn't take away from the impact that dad had and some impact from poverty as well. And he has actually been married twice. I'm his third wife. So to give you hope for people who have maybe had two divorces or even three divorces, he kind of did what I did. His second marriage ended really badly. He had two children, one from each marriage. And he's just like, you know, I am part of the problem here. Like, I know I'm not picking good people and I'm also part of the problem. And so he spent a year, the same year that I did, in the exact same time time, really diving into God, really trying to dive into the self help world. You know what is going on with me, you know, how can I control my emotions? How can I, you know, be a force of good in this world? And we just met each other at kind of the same time in our healing journeys. And because we're both fearful avoidance, we have both the same deep needs and the same wounds, so we get each other. And when two fearful avoidants get together, I call them the best friends, mortal enemies dynamic because they can be best friends because they share the same needs and they both crave deep intimacy and they're both deep feelers, but they're also toxic fighters. So fearful avoidance can either, like, they can do a bunch of different toxic things. Stonewall, silent treatment, passive aggressive yell, you know, temp, temper tantrums, or, you know, all sorts of like, behaviors. Right. And so if you can work on how you show up in conflict and how your nervous system works in conflict, conflict, we are able to navigate conflict very successfully. And so I feel like we have the real best friendship and the intimacy and we can navigate conflict, which is something that I've never been able to have in any other relationship.

[A]

But two, what is it called?

[C]

Fearful avoidance.

[A]

They can have a healthy relationship.

[C]

They can if they learn. Again, I think you have to move more towards security. You have to be able to not be that toxic fighter. You have to be able to.

[A]

Have.

[C]

Enough safety in your nervous system. Where when you have safety in your nervous system, I guess I should say you fire from your prefrontal cortex, which is this part of your brain which is like the smart human part of your brain. When you are in fight, flight or freeze, you are in more of the emotional primitive part of your brain. So you're sort of uninhibited and you're like shooting from the hip, right? Whereas when you're firing from your prefrontal cortex, because you for gathering safety in your nervous system, you're very deliberate, you're mindful, you're able to keep calm, you're open, you're curious. That's where your empathy lives. So you want to be firing from that part of the brain. So it's really learning to work with your nervous system to switch one part of your brain off and another part of your brain on, if that makes sense.

[A]

So my therapist told me, like, if there's something that happens, you do, like, what is, what are the two things you see two things, you smell something like that, but you have to do do it during calm times so that it becomes second nature for when there is a crisis. If you don't have Those tools on a regular Tuesday, you're not going to be able to use those when there is that trauma or whatever it is that you're going through.

[C]

That is absolutely correct. And that is one of the things that I sort of pound into the ground in my coaching programs is that you have to use these skills throughout moving through life every day because you have to get muscle memory. Because the brain works, you know, just like a muscle. It's based on repetition. Anything you've ever learned is based on doing it over and over again. And so if you want to be able to challenge your thoughts in a tense moment when you want to be able to gather safety in your nervous system, you have to do those things outside of being triggered, outside of when it's difficult, just in your normal everyday life. You're exactly right. And so these skills take muscle memory and that is a good grounding tool. That's kind of a bottom up tool that can be really good because. Because when you are feel safe, you are mindful and connected to the present. But the reverse is true as well. If you connect to the present and you, and you, you know, use your, your intention to be mindful, you're creating safety because safety is being connected to the present.

[A]

Okay, that makes sense. I would love to pick your brain about why someone like me would maybe have seven children and four fathers because you described looking for, you wanted to be loved correctly, but you also knew you were the problem, part of the problem. So me could say the same.

[C]

Yeah. So we all have our own unique journeys, you know, And I think that for a lot of people that have had trauma, they find love and safe connection through their children, which because children do provide a lot of safe connection, they love you. Even when you mess up, they love you. Right? They all, they're kind of, they, they love you unconditionally. And if you don't have access to safe love, that can sometimes be something that you can really lean into and rely on and sort of delve into that parent role and feel safe and connected with your children. And so that can be a beautiful thing. But I think when you've kind of gone through multiple partners, which I have had my history of bad decisions, I have, and of course those were from my attachment blueprints. But, but it's because you just don't have the skills to navigate difficulty and you're usually with somebody that probably doesn't have those skills either. And two very dysregulated people, or two people who have trauma around intimacy are going to have a hard time navigating intimacy. And so fearful avoidance are just notorious for picking people that will abandon them, that will abuse them, that will betray them. And it's. It just becomes again that self fulfilling prophecy where the subconscious is driving the ship and you're not consciously trying to choose someone that maybe betrays you or abandons you, but your subconscious tunes into those keys early on and it's like, oh, there it is. That's the familiar. But I can get a different ending this time and then I'll be fine. Then I'll be healed if I get that different ending. So your subconscious is just searching for the happiness and the different ending. And so. So you know you can't blame yourself. You don't know what you don't know. You go into those relationships with good intentions and you've had beautiful children come out of them. And I know, at least for me, you don't regret your children. No, no, of course they are. You know, you know, the beautiful thing that can come out of the ashes.

[A]

Right, Right, right. No, that makes sense. I just wish it didn't take me four times to learn the lesson.

[C]

I get it. I. I promise you, I totally understand.

[B]

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[A]

What is some relationship advice that everyone could use?

[C]

Yeah, really go after your attachment security. Like look into attachment science because it is just, just now sort of trending. Whereas it's, it's an old theory that has had a lot of science behind it, but where mental health practitioners, therapists, they are being trained and triaged to really focus on the mental health EP epidemic that we have in the US So we have so much anxiety, depression, adhd, autism, ocd, things like that. They're training has to be sort of triaged to treat those things. Whereas attachment theory is more of a luxury of theories to learn. Right. It's really focused on healing relationships. When most people are getting very, very little training in that area because they have so many people that they're dealing with that are mentally ill and they are just trying to keep people alive and trying to keep people functioning. So in terms of clinical training, a lot of people aren't being trained in attachment because again, they're just trying to be trained in as short of time as possible. A lot of these programs are now like one year programs instead of two or three year programs because we need, we have such a shortage of mental health providers unfortunately, compared to the mental health crisis that we have in this country. So go and research attachment and maybe find a provider or a coach that is an expert in attachment and can work from that lens. Because it's a really powerful lens, it has great predictive power and really focus on you. Because a lot of people that come to me are like, well, how do I get my partner to insert whatever here, whatever need, right? And I always say, well, if you're in that mindset of how do I change my partner, you're gonna fail. Because you can't change other people. You can only work on yourself and change how you present yourself and how you behave in the relationship. And sometimes that makes a positive difference. When one person sort of works on their stuff and can show up more respectful, can meet the other person's needs, can work through conflict, the other person is much less triggered and then they kind of move towards security. But sometimes that doesn't happen. Sometimes your partner needs to do their own work because, you know, they're very insecure, they've had a lot of trauma. So you have to focus on you. That's all you can control in any relationship is you, you and how you show up and what your boundaries are and how you communicate. So look into attachment, focus on doing the healing work yourself.

[A]

Do you think that your attachment style can impact the relationships you have with siblings or non, I guess, romantic relationships.

[C]

Yeah, to a lesser degree. Because nobody is going to trigger you in the same way that your romantic partner and your kids and your parents do. Your romantic partner partner probably being the person that can trigger you the most, especially if you have insecure attachment. And so friendships, we see attachment style maybe have a little bit of an influence, depending upon how close that friendship is and how important to you that friendship is. But people are usually able to show up a lot more secure in their friendships than they are in their romantic relationships.

[A]

Why is that? Why can our partners trigger us so much differently?

[C]

Because they represent true intimacy and what it means to be close to someone. And that mirrors the relationship of our earliest caregivers. Like our caregivers were our window into what does it mean to be close to someone when we are little. Right. And so that plays out in adulthood when the person that we're with represents the most intimate relationship that we can have, our romantic partner. And so that's always going to trigger the nervous system the most. The subconscious is very concerned with the survival of the species. Right. It views romantic relationships as very necessary to keep. Keep us all alive as humans. So when the subconscious goes, oh, this is disconnection, or, oh, this is problem with your partner, it also simultaneously is sort of considering that that's a threat to the survival of your genetics. So it gets very upset at that. It doesn't. It wants to make sure. It makes you very aware that you need to make sure that this is okay so that we can continue our own genetics and the species in general.

[A]

That's so interesting. Going back to the whole situation about, like, multiple partners and seeking out. And I said I was insane. Whenever I've had a child with someone, I don't want the dad anymore.

[C]

I think.

[A]

What is that called?

[C]

I think that that that's like the ultimate intimate experience with someone to have a child with them. Like, there's no greater intimate experience than being. Going through pregnancy and childbirth and having a child with them. And I think what might be happening to you is that just too much closeness for your avoidant side. It's too much intimacy. It was like, you did it. And then there's like this rebound effect where your nervous system went, oh, my gosh, that was so much that that's. This is just way too close. This is just way too much. And so you want to push back against that and create some distance that's not atypical for a fearful avoidant. Honestly. Because really, they can get overwhelmed with intimacy as well. I mean, usually they're, they're more overwhelmed by betrayal, but they can get overwhelmed with just the closeness too. And so you go through something that vulnerable, that intimate, that important, it can make your nervous system kind of collapse and be like, no, I. This is too unsafe. You gotta, you gotta put. Go away.

[A]

But you also said betrayal, and they also did that simultaneously. So it was like having a baby at the same time as a betrayal.

[C]

Oh, goodness. Been there for sure. So yeah. So of course, if there was a betrayal involved, your nervous system would go, oh, heck no. Especially after you have that, that really close, you know, vulnerable experience with someone. So you're in the most vulnerable state you can be in, which is pregnancy, postpartum, you know, early, you know, child years. You know, as a parent, it's a very vulnerable state for the mother. And then you have somebody that betrays you during that vulnerable state. Of course you would shut down and push away and say, no, I have to protect myself at all costs because I also have to protect this child.

[A]

Oh, so interesting. What attachment styles do you think are the most compatible, if any?

[C]

Many. Yes. So obviously secure was secure. That's what we're all sort of looking for. And security tends to have like this magnetic force. I always tell people, if you're worried about not finding somebody, don't worry about that. There's so many people in the world, right? Like, you think you won't find somebody, but you will. But it's what energy do you put out there and what, and how do you behave in the dating phase? And if you're secure, you're going to be repelled by red flags. You're going to be. Be really looking for the right things, like, does someone meet your needs? Is someone able to handle conflict calmly and work through it with you? And is someone consistent and is someone loyal and are they honest? Secure people are very attracted to those things. Whereas insecure people in the dating phase, they really, you know, kind of are attracted to the red flags. Like their nervous system gets confused between fear and excitement. So they end up with somebody who then they're fundamentally very incompatible with. Insecure attracts insecure, but usually of the opposite type. So we have usually like an anxious preoccupied with a dismissive avoidant or a fearful avoidant, who's more anxious with a dismissive avoidant or too fearful avoidance. Together, I would say out of all of the attachment combinations of the insecure types, I would probably take two fearful avoidance. Just because at least they if they can just learn to navigate conflict better, the connection is there. They don't have to work on meeting each other's needs or having connection. Most of the time it's just in conflict. It usually starts going awry. And then if they have too many negative conflict cycles, then the relationship breaks down. But at least the needs can be met for each other, you know, and they can create a really strong foundation at the beginning of the relationship because they're both very deep feelers, very deep, very open to intimacy. They want that best friend relationship established. And so that's my favorite insecure combination to work with because they need less work than usually. Like the highly anxious with the highly avoidant or the fearful with the dismissive is a really real train wreck combination too. So anxious, preoccupied with the dismissive avoidant, that can be really difficult. Usually they don't fight very much because they're both very afraid of conflict. But their relationship just turns into like a roommate situation because the anxious is like not speaking up for their needs and not setting boundaries with the avoidant person because they're so afraid if I speak up and say what I need, then I'm going to be abandoned by this avoidant person. So they just kind of keep to themselves and act like everything's okay, but they're dying on the inside. And then the dismissive avoidance just checked out and they think everything's fine because there's no conflict. So for them, their biggest need is peace. So if, if they're getting peace and harmony, then they feel like everything's okay. So the APDA usually isn't very conflictual, but it definitely fizzles out and people feel really disconnected and strained in the relationship. The FA with the DA is a train wreck relationship. So the fearful avoidant person, deepest need is to be understood, very deep feeler fears, betrayal, wants connection with, trying to avoid betrayal. So they essentially want people to like, like their partners, to study them and to use that data to just meet their needs, right? So they don't have to ask for the fearful avoidant. If you have to ask for a need to be met, like it's like it doesn't count, right? So fearful avoidance because they're hyper vigilant, they're hyper attuned, so they can pick up on people's needs really easily and meet people's needs, right? And so they just expect that everybody can do that in return. The dismissive avoidant has blinders on. Like they literally had these figurative blinders that they walk around with because if you're pushed into hyper independence at a very young age. You, your brain's attention system has to wire towards self focus to keep you safe. So they walk around like what do I need? What is going on with me today? How can I serve myself today? And they just don't think about their partner very much. And then their partner's like, how could you not consider me? And then they feel shame and they're like, I don't know, like I just didn't think about it it. And so they just, they're super disconnected. They don't realize they're disconnected. They don't realize they're selfish or self focused. So the fearful avoidant feels extremely betrayed by them. You don't give me time, you don't give me attention, you don't want to deeply know me, which is what I need to trust you and to feel safe. And then during conflict, the fearful avoidance, reactivity and criticism and anger is the thing that triggers the dismissive avoidant the most. They have a wound of defectiveness. So they kind of feel like they're broken on the inside and not capable of giving people what they need, need. And when you criticize them, it just their subconscious go, see, you're super defective. You're never going to get it right. You're just not meant for this. You're not built for relationships. So they withdraw or they, they get defensive and then withdraw. One of two things.

[A]

Okay, what was the one you said is with blinders on?

[C]

The dismissive avoidant. Yeah. So we have the fearful who's hyper vigilant, who's like very attuned to their partner. And then you have the DA or the dismissive avoidant who's very not attuned to their partner very walking around with their own blinders on. So that feels very like a betrayal to the fa. Like you don't notice mental me. You don't share, you know, deep things with me, you don't prioritize me. You know, I feel kind of invisible in this relationship. So they come in with their reactivity like you're not meeting my needs, you didn't even text me all day yesterday. Or you don't even hug me when I walk in the door. You know, they, they sort of have these complaints and then the dismissive avoidant because their biggest need is peace and harmony and they have a wound of defectiveness. They get super triggered by the criticism, they get defensive back which is a way to protect them from their shame of their defectiveness wound. And then they withdraw and Shut down, down. And when they withdraw and shut down, the fearful avoidance like, well, you must not even love me. You don't even wanted to work this out. You're just like stonewalling me. And that's not. They're not trying to be hurtful, but they don't know their nervous system freezes up. They don't know what to say, they don't know what to do, and they can't make themselves go back and try to repair it. That's part of their wounding.

[A]

I feel like over the last few years, narcissism and narcissists has become almost like a buzzword and everybody is a narcissist. Do you think that it could be actually dismissive, Avoidant? Is that what it was?

[C]

A lot of people? Yes, a lot of people. I get those comments all the time on my social media. When I do videos about the fearful or the dismissive. They'll be like, that sounds like narcissism. And what I will say is narcissism is at the trait level, so it's ingrained into your personality, so it's going to show up in all aspects of your life if you're a narcissist. Attachment is just a pattern of behavior, so it's very flexible. And, you know, once you get the right tools, you can make very profound changes in your attachment. And people who are insecurely attached aren't usually trying to be hurtful. They're operating from their own trauma responses. So a dismissive avoidant isn't trying to stonewall you because they want to have the power and they want to make you feel pain. They're stonewalling you because their own nervous system is in a freeze response over their own shame and over, you know, not knowing what to say, not knowing what to do, not knowing how to handle conflict because conflict wasn't a norm in their, their house. So they are just sort of like isolated and they're scared and they're sad and they. And then their emotional suppression kicks in where they kind of check out and dissociate. So they're not trying to hurt you with their stonewalling. They just can't, you know, make their nervous system safe enough to where they feel like they can go back and reconnect. They feel very frozen and you can't just like white knuckle through your trauma responses. Right. Whereas a narcissist. Narcissist. They're going to stonewall you because it's a way for them to take power. They know they're doing it, they know it hurts you, they don't care. It's all about, do I know that I have control over you? Right. Can I make sure that I am, you know, you are under my spell? And that's what gives me feelings of validity and worth and fills the deep void inside of me. And they're far, far more destructive and far, far more hurtful. So I think we, you know, not everybody is a narcissist. Most people just have insecure attachment. But inherently it can feel manipulative. It can feel manipulative if somebody isn't speaking to you. Right. Even if it's because they're in a shame spiral and their nervous system has sort of dissociated it. It feels the same way as a narcissist who's stonewalling you. Right. You're being stonewalled either way. But it's what's behind that narcissism is intention, right? It's. Yeah, it is very much all about whatever validation they can get or supply, they can get to fill the deep emptiness that always travels with them no matter where they go. Insecurely attached people don't walk around feeling empty. They walk around, you know, and having relatively normal lives. They just have these sort of dysfunctional behaviors around intimacy. Whereas narcissists like their, their narcissism causes difficulty in other areas of their life, life as well.

[A]

How can one differentiate between the two?

[C]

Sometimes it's really, really hard because narcissists are very, very good at manipulating people. So they can manipulate therapists, psychologists, etc, and so if you're not seeing the behind the scenes, behind closed doors, intimate behavior, as a professional, you might believe that they are healthy and functional. And so it's sometimes, it's just really hard to tell. Usually people with attachment trauma if they're in long term relationships or marriages, they have a lot more moments where there's some good narcissists almost always, eventually make things completely destructive all the way around. Like the good times eventually are almost nil to none. And then there's just this real strong overtone of I want you under my control. I'm the dictator, I'm the powerful one, and you are not. Not. And I'll do whatever it takes to keep this power. Whereas insecurely attached people can often come back and feel very remorseful about their behavior. Right. When they've had a chance to sit with it and their nervous system calms down, they can often be like, yes, I shouldn't have said that, or okay, I Shouldn't have done that with a narcissist. They're never going to take accountability. It's always going to be your fault. Always. And some very severe, insecurely attached people can behave that way as well. But they wouldn't have the other diagnostic criteria of, like, the grandiosity or, you know, needing to associate with powerful people, special people. You know, there. There's diagnostic criteria online. You can Google DSM criteria for narcissism, and you can kind of look if you're ever. You just have to have five of the eight. So like I said, to be a narcissist. To be a narcissist. So narcissism is on a spectrum. So healthy narcissism is really like, if you think about. About from 1 to 10, healthy narcissism's like a 6 out of 10. Oh, okay. So you want to actually be tipped a little bit towards narcissism because that makes you successful. You're. Then you can advocate for yourself. Then you're more likely to, you know, take opportunities, take chances. Below five is actually what we call echoism, and echoism is your boundary list. You're a doormat. You don't want to be seen. You want to sort of be hidden. You know, you don't feel like you have value and you have worth, and you, you know, get walked all over, over. So echoism isn't necessarily a good thing. So you want to be like a 6 out of 10. It's when we start to get to the 8, 9, 10. Especially the 9 and the 10, then we're looking at disordered behavior. So people can have some narcissistic traits but not be narcissists. Okay, fair, if that makes sense.

[A]

No, that makes complete sense. How would having a parent as a narcissist or a sociopath or a psychopath impact someone's attachment style?

[C]

Yes, that's very good.

[A]

Because I think, correct me if I'm wrong, obviously, but narcissists can mimic or. So which one can mimic, like, empathy, psychopathy?

[C]

I mean, they both can. Both can mimic empathy. I would say, you know, psychopaths are more cool. You have to think about psychopaths as, like, cool, calculated. You know, they play the long game. They can murder people and not care. Right. So that's a true psychopath. Like, I will do whatever it takes to get whatever I need from people, and I could not care less how much someone hurts or suffers. Sociopaths are more reactive to their environment. So, yes, they lack empathy and struggle with remorse. But they're more impulsive. They're more likely to get in trouble because they act on anger or act on impulse, where a psychopath can have extreme control and play that long game in order to get what they want. Right. Sociopaths are more like. Think about like, Tony Soprano. Okay? Like, his temper gets him every single time. Right. Like he. He gets in trouble because he has no impulse control. That's more sociopathic. Narcissists can be sociopaths, but not all narcissists are sociopaths or psychopaths. So when we think about narcissism being sociopathic, we think about, like, the dark triad, which includes, you know, Machiavellianism, which is like, exploitation and things like that. So they have other sort of dark personality traits, which leads them to be what's called a malignant narcissist, which is sort of the overlap between psychopathy or sociopathy and narcissism. So not all narcissists are sociopaths, but they can be if they have those other overlapping traits.

[A]

And how does that relate to attachment styles?

[C]

Yes. So it's fundamentally just a different beast than attachment. You have to think about, like, attachment as, like, the bottom layer, and then we can pile these other things on top of it that are distinct disorders. Okay. So attachment style, again, is not a disorder. It's just a pattern of behavior based on your experiences, you know, and that is very, very flexible. Whereas personality disorders are ingrained into more trait level characteristics, so they're more static or stable. It's kind of like part of who you are as a person.

[A]

Okay, okay. So, but someone that has a psychopath or a narcissist as a parent could still have a normal, secure attachment style.

[C]

Well, it's unlikely. Okay? It's very unlikely. So I believe that my dad was a covert narcissist. I'm not sure completely if he was disordered, because, again, he had bipolar disorder, which muddies the waters. But my grandmother was definitely a narcissist. And he had a lot of abuse as a child. Child. And he didn't know who his. Well, he was told that his stepdad was his dad. And then at 18, a family member revealed that wasn't actually his biological father, and that stepfather was pretty abusive to him. So he kind of had a lot of attachment and relational trauma as well. And he had some more covert or vulnerable narcissistic characteristics. So usually you. Usually. Not always. But usually children of narcissistic parents develop fearful, avoidance. Avoidance, or sometimes narcissism themselves.

[A]

Oh, Interesting. I wonder what Susie is. What is one thing that people get totally wrong about love and attachment styles?

[C]

That awareness equals change. Awareness of a problem does not mean that you can change it because these things are tied to how your nervous system functions. And your nervous system is always going to override your intentions. So until you fix your nervous system them, just being aware that you have certain patterns or being aware of what the problems are in your relationship does not mean you're going to be able to fix it. It's not enough because it's not enough because your trauma responses are going to override your intentions. And so that's why you have to do capacity building. You have to build your capacity inside of your mind and inside of your own nervous system to fundamentally show up differently in your relationships over time. And that's a process. Process. It's not something where things can change overnight. That's why if you have somebody who's treated you really poorly and they come crawling back and they say, I'm going to change, I'm going to change. It's like, okay, well just because you now know that you were wrong doesn't mean that person's going to change at all. So be very, you know, mindful of that. Right? So be careful of the second chances. Change requires a lot of effort and it requires time. Because if someone is behaving in these ways because their nervous system is wired that way towards, you know, having these responses, you know, in difficult moments or related to intimacy in general, just because they know it doesn't mean that their nervous system is going to do something different. So it takes, it takes work and it takes time to change.

[A]

So I have actually that brings me to another question I had about. So like someone that cheats in an, in a romantic relationship, if we have a serial cheater and now all of a sudden they realize, okay, I want to change, they might not be able.

[C]

To, to correct unless they get the right, the right tools and, and they are dedicated to using those tools.

[A]

What type of attachment style do cheaters have?

[B]

Serial cheaters.

[C]

Most of them are dismissive, avoidant.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Because dismissive avoidance get very triggered by intimacy itself. So I always say the three Cs, closeness, commitment and conflict, those are their three big triggers. So closeness, commitment and conflict are all going to pop up as the relationship goes on for longer. Right? And so at the beginning of a relationship, their subconscious mind views their partner as, quote, low stakes. Meaning, like, well, if this doesn't work out, it is what it is. I haven't known this person very long. I'm, you know, it's like, I'll move on, I'll get over it. But as they commit and as they get deeper into the relationship and there's more longevity and you know, obviously then conflicts can start creeping up and there's more pressure for them to meet their partner's expectations consistently, instantly. That's when they start to what we call deactivate or pull back. And so they're human and they do have a need for vulnerability, but they suppress it for to them it's shameful. Okay. On a subconscious level. And so they often cheat and bring a new partner into the situation because then that partner becomes the low stakes partner and they can repeat the honeymoon phase and they can be vulnerable and they can get the chemical rushes without a lot of expectation and without a lot of the conflict that they have with the, their long, long term partner. And so they don't realize that that's what's happening. They just sort of feel like, oh, I'm falling out of love with long term partner and then I meet this really great short term partner and now they're the best thing that's ever happened to me. But then what happens when they stay with a fair partner that becomes the high stake partner eventually and then they start to back away and feel overwhelmed. And I see this so much in dismissive avoidance that happens. Have been married a couple of times and most of their marriages have ended because of their infidelity. They had such high hopes for the next partner because in the beginning that new partner made them feel so different. Well, it was only because it was a low stakes relationship. It wasn't anything to do with the actual characteristics of that new partner. It was just that their wounds around being close and around handling conflict weren't yet activated. So they're, they're sort of confused by that. They think it's the person when really it's the stakes of the relationship being looked at that makes them feel comfortable in that affair.

[A]

That's so interesting to me. Do you believe that opposites attract so like the different attachment styles? Opposites will, yes.

[C]

So the rule actually in psychology is that like attracts like, but it's nuanced. So secure attracts secure and insecure attracts insecure. So that's like attracts like. But within terms of the type of insecurities that usually attract each other, those are of the opposite type. Okay. So anxious people attract avoidant people, vice versa, versa.

[A]

Okay. Do you believe soulmates exist?

[C]

I do.

[A]

You do?

[C]

I do.

[A]

So even being a Scientist and psychologist. You believe soulmates exist?

[C]

I do because I'm married to mine. But I think it's sort of like you have to be ready for it. And I do believe in the law of attraction. I believe that's God's law. I totally believe in the law of attraction.

[A]

What is the law of attraction against?

[C]

It's this idea that like what you think and what you feel, you vibrate or you like give off a certain energy and then you attract that energy back to you. So secure people are confident in who they are. They have high self worth, they have high standards, strong boundaries. They're kind, they're reciprocal, they're giving, they're sacrificial. But also they don't self abandon. They make sure that their own needs are respected. And so, so they have that energy. Right. When they're in a dating relationship and someone starts becoming inconsistent with their communication, let's say they start dropping off and, you know, fading away. A secure person is going to go, ew, like I don't like that, like what's up with him? They don't go, oh my gosh, what's wrong with me? Where are they going? Oh my gosh, what if they don't want to be with me anymore? And then they get anxious and then they try to fix it. Right. And they try to attach more.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

To that red flag. Right. Like, oh, you're fading away, come back. No, I want you. I get it, girl, I get it. I've been there. A secure person is going to go, I don't really like that. And you know, I kind of need consistency. So I don't think this is going to work out too well. Right, right. So they're going to walk away from that red flag. Or if, you know, a partner starts talking really horrible about their ex, an anxious person might be like, oh, their ex treated them so bad and I can love them so much better. You know, I feel so bad for them.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But a secure person is gonna be.

[A]

Like, what did you do?

[C]

What did you do? And why, you know, is it, was it really this one sided deal and it's really not nice to talk about somebody from your past in that kind of a light.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You secure people might be like, well, there were some problems and it wasn't a good fit and you know, I had to work hard to move on from them and but you know, I wish them well. You know, I don't want anything bad for them.

[A]

I have a combo.

[C]

Yeah. Insecure people might be like, you know, they screwed me over and I hate them. And. And then an anxious attacher might feel bad, like I said, feel bad for them and feel like, oh, I can, I can prove myself, I can love you so much better. Whereas secure person is going to go, I don't really love how you spoke about them. I don't really want to be on the other end of that someday. I don't want to be in that seat where you're talking about me that way.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And that doesn't feel good to their nervous system. So secure people are used to what safety feels like and they, they are turned off by people that violate their safety. Safety in relationships where insecure people are sort of, they mistake the fear for the excitement and attraction. So fear responses actually make them attract more.

[A]

Where can people find you on social media and where can they sign up for you to coach them?

[C]

Yes, absolutely. So I do have a website, thelovedoc.com and I have a podcast that I'm really proud of and we're growing it. We're in just started season two, so it's called the Love Doc podcast. We're available on all major platforms and all of my social hands handles are Dr. Sarah Hensley, love Doc. So you can find me on Tik tok, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube.

[A]

Perfect. Thank you so much for being here on Barely.

[C]

Thank you for the opportunity. Of course. So wonderful to meet you.

[A]

Same.

[D]

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[E]

Hi, I'm Adam Rippon and this is Intrusive Thoughts, the podcast where I finally say the stuff out loud that's been living rent free in my life head for years. From dumb decisions to awkward moments I probably should have kept to myself. Nothing's off limits. Yes, I'm talking about the time I lost my phone mid flight and still haven't truly emotionally recovered from that. There might be too many sound effects. I've been told to chill. Will I unclear. But if you've ever laid awake at night cringing at something you said five years ago, congratulations, you found your people. Intrusive Thoughts with Adam Rippon is available now wherever you get your podcasts.