Helpless or Helpful with Jessica Knoll

Summary

Barely Famous – “Helpless or Helpful” with Jessica Knoll

Host: Kail Lowry
Guest: Jessica Knoll (New York Times bestselling author)
Date: July 10, 2026

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Overview

In this episode of Barely Famous, host Kail Lowry sits down with acclaimed author Jessica Knoll to discuss her latest novel, Helpless, as well as her previous hits, tackling tough topics like trauma, survival, women’s subcultures, and the growing impact of dark romance and true crime in literature. The conversation is raw, deeply personal, and filled with insights about writing, healing, media adaptations, and the importance of representation and honesty in storytelling.

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Episode Structure & Key Discussion Points

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1. Introducing Jessica Knoll and Helpless

Timestamp: 01:45 – 04:42

• Kail welcomes Jessica, congratulates her on her success, and dives right into discussing her new novel Helpless, released July 7th.
• Book Premise:
  • Two exes, reunited by the funeral of a cherished college professor, go for a drink. The ex-boyfriend drugs and kidnaps the protagonist, taking her to his remote cabin in the Adirondacks.
  • The story raises questions about captivity, control, and why women are so attracted to dark romance narratives.
  • Jessica shares her fascination with the rise of “dark romance” and its appeal:

    "I'm asking the reader the bigger meta question of like, what are we doing here... in this moment of time... why are these relationships so appealing to women?" (03:00)

• Kail relates her own discovery of dark romance through Still Beating by Jennifer Hartman.

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2. Dark Romance, Trauma, and Female Fantasy

Timestamp: 04:42 – 07:08

• Both Jessica and Kail openly discuss their history as survivors of domestic violence and sexual assault.
• Exploration of why dark romance resonates with survivors:

  “My sense is a lot of dark romance fans... probably have a similar background. Even if you’re fantasizing about giving up control, you’re in control of that in a weird way.”
  (Jessica Knoll, 05:20)

• The conversation spotlights the complicated relationship between trauma, control, fantasy, and healing.

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3. The Importance of Telling Stories of Assault

Timestamp: 07:08 – 11:19

• Discussion shifts to Luckiest Girl Alive and Jessica’s decision to write about sexual assault from lived experience.
• Jessica recounts how her debut novel’s realism connected with readers, leading her to come out publicly as a survivor:

  “I was almost more traumatized by the bullying and the ostracization that came after the assault than the actual assault itself.” (08:22)

• The viral impact of her essay on Lenny Letters and the healing it brought:

  “I heard from so many of my classmates... I’m so sorry I didn’t see this for what it was at the time... It was truly such a healing moment for me.” (10:57)

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4. Book Adaptations & Creative Control

Timestamp: 14:51 – 17:35

• Kail dives into the Netflix adaptation of Luckiest Girl Alive and the creative process.
• Jessica as executive producer and screenwriter:

  “I fought really hard to be the one to adapt it myself... Gillian Flynn was my guiding light.” (16:00)

• How the #MeToo movement and evolving conversations about consent influenced the film’s ending.
• Actual messages from survivors were included in the subway scene:

  "Those are the actual messages I got from women who read the essay." (18:02)

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5. Using Media as a Tool for Conversation

Timestamp: 18:03 – 20:58

• Kail describes watching the Luckiest Girl Alive film with her teenage son, sparking “the consent talk”:

  “If there is alcohol involved, that is your answer. The answer is no. Period. Full stop.” (19:16)

• Jessica applauds this, noting the importance of teaching boys about consent just as much as girls.

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6. Women, Media, and Career Themes

Timestamp: 21:04 – 24:50

• Kail admires Jessica’s focus on complex women in media—journalists, writers, reality stars—across her books.
• Jessica explains the “dream come true” trajectory from getting a publishing deal to signing a two-book contract and handling the uncertainty of TV/movie development for her works:

  “It’s so incredibly hard to move things out of development... things die in development more often than they grow wings.” (24:22-24:50)

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7. The Favorite Sister & Reality TV Inspiration

Timestamp: 27:51 – 31:18

• Favorite Sister was inspired by watching reality TV (Real Housewives of New York) and its depiction of female friendship unraveling.
• Kail shares how much this book’s reality-versus-reality themes resonate with her own life on reality TV:

  “How do you explain to an audience... that this is reality but so is this? ...You’re not able to disclose everything.” (30:13)

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8. Writing Process, Collaboration, and Feedback

Timestamp: 31:35 – 36:26

• Both discuss why most authors don’t co-write books—Jessica’s method is “pantser,” not a “plotter”:

  “There is no process... inspiration finds you working.” (32:20, 32:47)

• Addressing constructive criticism:

  “I find it very depleting to like turn something in... and hear it still needs so much more work.” (35:18) “It almost makes me feel lethargic and fatigued... it takes so much out of me.” (36:26)

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9. Support, Community & Author Advice

Timestamp: 38:41 – 41:44

• Jessica emphasizes finding trusted first readers/beta groups, especially those who are regular readers.
• Importance of connecting with other creatives, writer’s groups, and having honest feedback.

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10. Bright Young Women: Feminist True Crime

Timestamp: 41:55 – 46:20

• Kail and Jessica discuss her novel on Ted Bundy, Bright Young Women, which centers the perspectives and resilience of victims—not the mythology of the killer:

  “A lot of my writing starts by something that pisses me off... the resilience of the women was actually the story that hadn’t been told.” (43:18)

• Critique of the “charming” Bundy narrative and the historical conditioning of women to people-please, adding to their vulnerability.

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11. Admiring Gillian Flynn & Adaptations

Timestamp: 48:02 – 51:22

• Kail asks Jessica about literary idols—her answer is Gillian Flynn (“She pro— I don't know. She's pretty insular... I hope at one point something she actually wants to do is write another book, because I'll be that first preorder.” (48:38)).
• Discussion of the prevalence and importance of adapting books to TV/film.

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12. Media, Originals, and What They’re Loving

Timestamp: 51:22 – 54:33

• Kail and Jessica chat about favorite recent originals on TV—Jessica loves Apple’s Widows Bay (a horror-comedy with “The Shining level” scares).
• Kail reflects on preferring to “read the book first” before watching adaptations.

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13. Writing Habits, Technology, and AI

Timestamp: 62:01 – 66:56

• Kail and Jessica discuss the current author community conversation on using AI to write or research:

  “It’s clear to me... you should not be using AI to write your novels.” (62:09) “I'm part of a lawsuit of authors against one of the, the big AI programmers... they used our works to train their model.” (62:09)

• Skepticism about AI-generated research/data, examples of AI getting facts wrong in legal and creative contexts.

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14. Reading Habits: Audiobooks, Kindle, and Physical Books

Timestamp: 66:56 – 70:59

• Both agree audiobooks count as reading now (“There are actual studies that show it activates the same region of the brain…” – Jessica, 67:26).
• Preferences: Kail loves her Kindle for travel; Jessica still prefers physical books but is open to Kindle for convenience.
• Discussion about the importance of modeling reading habits for children.

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15. Favorite Reads, Recommendations, and TBRs

Timestamp: 59:30 – 61:20, 70:52 – 71:04

• Jessica’s all-time favorite book: The Secret History by Donna Tartt—“It has the most incredible opening line... the writing is so stunning.” (59:41)
• Currently reading: We Need to Talk About Kevin by Lionel Shriver.
• Kail recommends Still Beating by Jennifer Hartman (a recurring mention).
• Both love the dark, twisty side of fiction and occasionally reach for historical fiction (Kristin Hannah for Kail).

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Notable Quotes

• “My sense is a lot of dark romance fans... probably have a similar background. Even if you’re fantasizing about giving up control, you’re in control of that in a weird way.”
  —Jessica Knoll, 05:20

• “I was almost more traumatized by the bullying and the ostracization that came after the assault than the actual assault itself.”
  —Jessica Knoll, 08:22

• “If there is alcohol involved, that is your answer. The answer is no. Period. Full stop.”
  —Kail Lowry, 19:16

• “A lot of my writing starts by something that pisses me off. The resilience of the women... was actually the story that hadn’t been told.”
  —Jessica Knoll, 43:18

• “There is no process... inspiration finds you working.”
  —Jessica Knoll, 32:47

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Key Takeaways and Memorable Moments

• Jessica’s personal history informs her fiction, cultivating a unique blend of realism, vulnerability, and social commentary.
• Both women openly share trauma histories, offering validation and solidarity for listeners facing similar issues.
• The discussion around dark romance, trauma, and agency is nuanced and timely, recognizing both the dangers and the healing potential of the genre.
• Jessica’s trajectory from novelist to screenwriter/executive producer on her adaptation (Luckiest Girl Alive) is unusually hands-on and inspiring for aspiring authors.
• Critical look at the legacy of male-centered media myths (e.g., the Ted Bundy story), and insistence on telling women’s stories from their perspectives.
• Sincere advice for new writers: find your trusted circle of first readers, accept feedback, and don’t fear the slow process.
• Confident stance against the use of AI in creative writing: “You should not be using AI to write your novels.”
• Honest admissions about handling rejection and the hard emotional work behind writing.

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Final Notes & Where to Find Jessica

• Helpless (Jessica Knoll’s fourth novel) is out now (July 7th, 2026).
• Find Jessica on Instagram: @jessicaknollauthor.
• Other books discussed: Luckiest Girl Alive, The Favorite Sister, Bright Young Women.
• Kail will be giving away a copy of Helpless in her book club.

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For Listeners

This episode is an emotionally rich, inspiring conversation for fans of dark fiction, survivors, aspiring writers, and anyone invested in honest discussions about women, trauma, survival, and creativity. Jessica Knoll’s insights about healing through story, making sense of complex genres, and advocating for survivor voices make this a must-listen.

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All advertisements and non-content sections have been omitted from this summary for clarity and relevance.

Transcript

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[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

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[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

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[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah.

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[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

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[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

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[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

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[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Okay, guys, we're back. You asked for it. And we're delivering. Killer is going on tour. We're super excited for the fatherless behavior tour. 23 cities, three countries, all in one summer. And you guys can check out tour dates and see if we're coming to a city near you on killlowry.com. and if you want early access to information and announcements, head over to Patreon because you might get it before everyone else. Welcome to the show. Things are going to get weird. It's your fave villain, Kayla, and you're listening to Barely Famous. Welcome back to another episode of Barely Famous podcast. Today I'm sitting with an author, Jessica Knoll. You're a New York Times bestselling author. Congratulations. Thank you. And you have a new novel coming out called helpless. Yes. July 7th.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

July 7th.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

I'm so excited. I got an early copy of it and I'm also going to be giving one away for book club, so stay tuned for that. But welcome to Barely Famous.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Thank you for having me.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, I'm so excited. I watched my son and I actually watched Luckiest Girl Alive last night. And lots of heavy stuff there. So I cannot wait to talk about that. But before we do that, I would love to talk about Helpless.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Okay. With it.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

I'd love to.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

So this is your latest novel. What inspired Helpless?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Well, I'll start with what Helpless is about.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Sure.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

So it's just two exes who are reunited at the funeral of their college professor who meant a lot to them. And one thing leads to another. They end up having a drink to kind of like bury old history. And the ex boyfriend ends up drugging our main character, kidnapping her. And she wakes up in his remote cabin in the Adirondacks in upstate New York. And the whole novel presents this question of why did he kidnap her and what is she doing here? And she's trying to one get free and figure out why she's there. But at the same time I'm asking the reader like the bigger meta question of like, what are we doing here in this moment of time where I'm, you know, I'm a reader, I'm a writer, I have my eye on the trends and dark romance is like a huge burgeoning trend. And I got sucked into it too. Like I was love a dark romance. I love a romantasy. Like I was obsessed with Court of Thorns and Roses. Like, so excited for the new books. And as I was reading them and just feeling like lost in these worlds, I'm like, what is it about these relationships in particular that are so appealing to women? And so that's kind of the larger question at the start of the novel

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

that makes sense to me. Actually. When my girlfriend and I were talking about it, she was like, it's in the thriller. Thriller. She said, it's in the thriller category. I said, but it sounds like dark romance.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

It's a. It's like an amalgam of both.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, I love that I have. I'm sort of newish to the book community within the last few years and I have pleasant welcome. Yes, thank you. It's truly been a life changer, like for my mental health, for staying off social media, for. I literally have to decide, okay, if I'm going to watch something instead of reading, I have to schedule it out. And I love it. But so I say all that to say that when I entered the book world, I had no idea that there were all these categories and tropes and things like that.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Genre, sub genres, all these things. Yeah.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Well, in a way it was like, oh, this is a different world. And that's the world I want to be in. And so I read my first dark romance, which to this day lives with me.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

What is it?

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Still beating by Jennifer Hartman. And it's a wild ride. And that was my first introduction to dark romance. Love it. I don't think that because I'm not typically a romance girly, dark romance I can get.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

You can do. Yeah, that's how I am too.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

But it's crazy because I am and I've been very open about being a victim of domestic violence and also sexual assault. So it is like such a weird juxtaposition to be a victim of that and also be obsessed with that category.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

So I love that you brought that up because I'm also a survivor of sexual assault. And I've done a lot of thinking and reflection about why that is. And I mean, this is. There's nothing too statistical to back this up. But my sense is a lot of dark romance fans. Romance fans probably have a similar background. And I actually don't think it's actually not counterintuitive when you think about it, because I've thought about this a lot. So a lot of times, like in the dynamic between the characters in these sorts of stories, it's like a dominance and submission, but it's also a fantasy. Like, I. It's very normal, I think, for women to fantasize about, like, sexual aggression. Like, that is actually a very well studied phenomenon. But when you're. Something you fantasize about is not something you're necessarily going to want in real life. And when you fantasize, you are actually. Even if you're fantasizing about giving up control, you're in control of that in a weird way. Like you're controlling every aspect of the fantasy in your head. So in a weird way, it's like resting back power. And that's my theory on why I think a lot of women with that kind of background are drawn to these types of stories.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

I've actually never thought of it that way at all. And I don't think I've ever said that out loud, like, how I've been there. And then also, like, to your point, like fantasizing about that stuff or like liking that genre. But ultimately I think that it's a very unique genre that I didn't know existed. But I'm really excited to read it. I only got it, I think yesterday or the day before, so I haven't had a chance to read it yet. But I'm super excited. But that brings me to Luckiest Girl Alive, which has. It was on my TBR for I can't even tell you. But as you know, as an author and if you're a reader as well, like, you just keep adding to your TBR and you're like, what the heck? So I did listen to the favorite sister and we, my son and I actually both watched Luckiest Girl Alive, which also has heavy topics and themes of sexual assault and things like that. Why is it important for you to discuss that?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Well, so And I've written about this. Luckiest Girl Alive was my debut novel. It came out in 2015. And the character is also a sexual assault survivor. And there is a scene in there, like, trigger warning that details the night that this occurred. And the whole year that that book came out. And I was, you know, doing events and readings and meeting readers and signing books. There would always be, like, one or two women, like, at every event who would kind of shyly say to me, like, you know, how did you depict that so realistically? Like, did you do, like, interviews or. And there would always be this moment where we would kind of, like, lock eyes, and it would just be like, this understanding. Like, she didn't want to say that. The reason she thought it was depicted so realistically was because she'd experienced that. And I didn't want to say, sorry,

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

I didn't expect to cry today. And I had chills and I'm crying.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

But, yeah, no, it would. It would bring tears to my eyes. And. And I wouldn't want to say, well, it's written so realistically because it's more or less what happened to me.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Right.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

But a component of what happened to me was also the gaslighting and the painting of me as the villain in the story, that I had gotten too drunk, that I had consented to these encounters. And I just kind of went through the rest of high school with, like, a scarlet letter. And so I was really. I was almost more traumatized by the. The bullying and the ostrich ostracization that came after the assault than the actual assault itself. Like, I didn't have anyone who really said, I believe you. That was so traumatizing and so painful. And I carried that with me my whole life. It was, like, burning in my chest. And I don't now, because I wrote this book and I got it off my chest, and I just thought, I will write it as fiction, and I will let the world decide if what happened to me was actually sexual assault or not. And these women vis a vis coming to me and essentially saying, like, this was so realistic. And calling it what it was, which was sexual assault, made me feel safe enough to come forward and say, like, the reason it feels real is because it is real. And a year after the novel was published, I wrote an essay and it was published on Lena Dunham. Used to have this newsletter called Lenny Letters. It no longer exists, but I published it on Lenny Letters because I actually used. My writing background, started in women's magazines, and I just knew how much like, it could be, like, very heavy handed when it came to, like, editing to make sure that, like, your voice fit the voice of the magazine. And I was like, I don't. I want to just, like, write this in my. And I. I just felt like I could do that. Like, someone like Lena Dunham would understand. And so we published it and it went viral, you know, for the way things went viral in 2016. Now it feels like it's so hard to, like, break through and, like, there's so much noise. But this really, like, that day, it just blew up. It blew up on Twitter. And then the Today show called, and I. I did an interview with the Today show that evening, and then I got a email from my high school principal. Like, it just. It turned into this massive thing. And I heard from so many of my classmates who basically said, like, I'm so sorry that I didn't see this for what it was. Like, I can now see it for what it was at the time. And I'm so sorry for, like, any part I played in making you feel alone during those years. It was truly, like, such a healing moment for me. And it was so validating to just have people say, like, yeah, you were assaulted. You know, it was a complete reversal of what people had said to me at that point. I think when I wrote the essay, it had been, like, 17 years since it had happened.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Wow.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

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[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

this is a paid message from GoFundMe.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Meet Juan Naula.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

When his son was hospitalized for a viral infection, Juan started a GoFundMe to pay for medical expenses.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

It was 5k to pay the bill for my son and I need only 22 hours. It was amazing. People really trust on GoFundMe. How did Juan raise $5,000 in less than a day?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

He posted a short video on GoFundMe telling his story in 30 seconds.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

30 seconds. Be specific, be quick and tell what

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

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[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

I was nervous to do it because it doesn't feel okay to ask money.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

But you shouldn't be nervous. Sometimes you just have to do it

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

and see the results. We were able to save my son's

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

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[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

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[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Start your GoFundMe today at gofundme.com that's gofundme.com gofundme.com. this message reflects one person's experience.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

In Luckiest Girl Alive, Ani goes on the Today Show. Yes, that is. I have chills. Oh, my God. So you really. Well, so that brings me to the next point where, you know, talking about, you know, this book that you had an adaptation for which I saw that you were an executive producer for which that's amazing in and of itself. But how one, how did you decide what could be cut out as an executive producer? Because it is so hard. I did have, I had Colleen Hoover on. I think she was like one of my first authors I've ever talked to. And I asked her, I said, why did they change the movies or the show so much? And the way that she described it to me was, you know, a book is this long, but you only have so much time for a movie. Right. And so how do you decide what gets cut out and what doesn't? And so why was it important for you to show like the Today show or talking about, you know, Ani was in sort of the, she was in the writer's world just like you were. Why were those things important to, I guess, keep in the film?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah, so I actually wrote the film as well.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

You did?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah, I was the writer on it. I fought really hard to be the one to adapt it, it myself because those things were so important to me.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

That's sort of unheard of.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah, it's, it is very un, it's uncommon. But I will say that my, my kind of guiding light for all of that was Gillian Flynn who wrote Gone Girl and she also adapted it herself and, and wrote the screenplay for it. And that all happened around the time that I was working on Luckiest Girl Alive. And it was like a blueprint for me. I was like, wow, an author can, can write a breakout novel and then have the power to say like, yeah, you can have the rights, but I want to crack, I want to crack at it. You know, if I, if I mess it up, fine, like hire another writer, but I want first crack. And that's basically what I said. And I'm very grateful to the producers that I worked with for giving me the opportunity and working with me because I was a first time screenwriter. So. Yeah, and then even with, even with the elements that, that were in the movie, like her appearing on the Today show and her writing the essay, like that was not part of the novel. But we, you know, I had conversations with Mila Kunis, who played the, who played Ani, the main character, and about how we were struggling with the ending. And we just realized that by the time we filmed the movie. We filmed the movie in 2021, but the novel came out in 2015.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Right.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

So so much had transpired between the publication and, you know, in those six years and the MeToo movement had happened, you know, and so we. I can't remember. It wasn't like, it wasn't obvious to us that we should include those element elements, and that's how we should end the movie.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Sure.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Like, we really, like, tossed around a lot of different ideas. And I think at some point, like Mila said, like, why wouldn't we just show you on the Today show and, like, let it end there? And in that subway scene where she's looking at the women reading her essay and you hear there. Those are the actual messages I got from women who. Who read the essay.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Literal messages.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yep.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Oh, I. This whole interview is chill. Like, you do not have to be even a part of the book world to listen to this interview. I think so many people are going to have such a. So many takeaways from this because, I mean, you're in every. Like, every facet between sexual assault, but also women and their careers. Because that was also a theme that came up. Not related to sexual assault was. Or at least a theme for me was, you know, women in their career fields and kind of the asking for

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

what you want and.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, yeah. And my son, he's 16. And honestly, that. Com. That. That movie, that film, the adaptation, I don't know how you prefer for me

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

to say film is fine, movie is fine.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

So the film Luckiest Girl Alive actually opened a really important conversation for my son and myself because. And you'll have to let me know if it's in the novel as well, the drinking aspect of it. And so when she. When Ani goes and sits with the admins at school and she's like, I don't know. I don't know if I said no, but I didn't want to do it. And I said, ow. And I said, wait. And I said, you know, and she said something along the lines of, like, we were drunk or we were drinking. Something along those lines. And I looked at my son and I said, if there is alcohol involved, that is your answer. The answer is no. Period. Full stop.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

That's amazing.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Like, if you are drinking, you cannot consent.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Period.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

See, like, now I have goosebumps that, like, watching that movie, like, inspired that important conversation with. With a teenage boy, you know, because I feel like girls, like, were. You know, we're told from infancy, basically, how to prevent sexual assault from happening. But I don't feel the same measure of, like, urgency is imposed on boys, you know, or like, even just opening the door to that conversation, like, is. Is something I. Hopefully is happening more and more now. But it wasn't when I was growing up, that's for sure.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

No, I agree with you. And for me, I. I have six boys, and so that. It's insane. It is good for you. So. And one daughter. And so it's just. Just. It's one of those things that I. Nobody had those conversations with me. And I don't necessarily think that I was watching movies that had those themes or even. I definitely wasn't reading the books, you know, so it's important for me to have those conversations. And films like that are important because it opens the door in an organic way, in a way that, you know, you can see this on TV and now we can have a conversation about it. So I really appreciate that as a mom and definitely at your discretion for parents listening to this, maybe watch it first or read the trigger warnings before, because not everyone will be comfortable letting their teenage kids watch it. But for me, it was. It was, in my opinion, really important. On the way to New York this week, I listened to the Favorite Sister,

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

and I'm so curious your thoughts on that, given your experience in reality television.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Well, that's what I wanted to talk about, because you do such a good job with all of your books and all of your works. The film, too, like, kind of working in women in. In. I don't know what to call women who are writing for, like, the New York Times or magazines or whatever. What would you. That's not like, the public media, but media. Okay. Yeah, duh. You know, women working in media are people working in media. And so it's really interesting that that's sort of like a theme in some. In a lot of your work, and I actually love that. Yeah. So the two sisters are Brett and Kelly, and they sort of have, like, this, like, rivalry, but also. But also not.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah. As sisters do, I think.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. And so it was definitely a unique book. I can't think of any other book that I read or listened to that was like that. But so what inspired that? Do you have a sister that you.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

I actually do not have a sister. I have a brother. But. And I know that sister dynamics are, like, a lot more complicated, and I was interested in the notion of sisterhood overall. Truthfully, I was coming off the success of a debut novel, and my editor was like, what else you got for me? And I was like, I got nothing. Like, I got.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Were you expecting the success from Luckiest Girl Alive?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

I was hoping for it, but I would not say I was expecting it. Like, it was my dream that it would be successful.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

So did you have plans to write other books or you were kind of just playing it by ear and deciding, like, let's see how this goes.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

It was such a dream to get a publishing deal that I wasn't even thinking that far ahead that, like, this would turn in. I think. I'm sure, I'm trying to remember what my, you know, where my head was at at that time, but I think I was just so thrilled to have gotten a publishing deal to have been able to quit my job in magazines and, and give it a go to make this my full time thing. And that I was, I was honored that there would even be a discussion of a second novel. And so after Luckiest Girl Alive published, and it did so well, Simon and Schuster offered me a two book contract. So then I was contracted for two more books after that.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Two more. In addition to Luckiest Girl Alive, in

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

addition to Luckiest Girl, where were you

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

at as far as the adaptation goes? Had you already gotten that deal before?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yes, because that happened. Actually. I think initially the option was with Lionsgate. It was supposed to be theatrical. And then, I mean, that was like 2015 and the movie didn't come out till 2023. And at some point over those eight years, we moved to Netflix because it just wasn't happening at Lionsgate, which is like a very common thing, actually. Like, all of my, all of my novels are like auctioned, but, like, it almost means nothing until they're out of development. And it's so incredibly hard to move things out of development. But I think I had a lot of like, you know, when you're like a first timer, it all feels so exciting and like this is the first time it's ever happened. So, like, of course it's gonna be made into a movie. And then you learn like, oh my God, like, things die in development more often than they grow wings.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

No, truly, though, and I say I talk about that all the time across all my podcasts, because I've been signed to myself. Not related to books, obviously, but signed to production contracts to get my own reality show.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Oh, I'm. Yeah, I'm sure you've experienced it.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

The time, like, you could even film an entire pilot or a sizzle or do a whole situation, sign the ink dries, and then it Never comes to fruition. That happens across the board. Not just with book adaptations, not just with reality tv. It just happens all the time.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

I know. And it's like. It's heartbreaking because you put a lot of work and energy into something and you get excited about it.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Right?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

You know, and so it can be hard to, like, recover and, like, try and move on to the next thing.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

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[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

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[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

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[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

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[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

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[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

I think with the favorite sister, like, I put so much of my own experience into Luckiest Girl Alive that I had nothing. The well was dry, kind of and really what happened? But I felt so much pressure. What happened? I was at a friend's for the weekend and there was a marathon rerun of like the first and second seasons of Real Housewives of New York. And I don't know if you're a Real Housewives fan.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

I've never seen it.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Okay.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

I know who some of the women are just by social media, but I've never seen it.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

So the. So this is old school, like, real throwback. So there was this friendship between two women, Jill and. Well, you probably know Bethenny Frankel.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Yes, of course I know who she is.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

So Bethenny Frankel and Jill were best friends and in like Bethany was still like the underdog in season one. Like, she hadn't sold Skinny Girl. Like, she wasn't married. She wanted a kid desperately and she didn't have one. And she was kind of taken on by this older, more successful woman named Jill Zarin, and they became inseparable. And then I can't remember if it's the second season or third season. Their friendship just unravels and it's actually devastating to watch on screen. And we were watching this marathon and I was like, this is is such an interesting thing to explore, like the how a friendship can fall apart because of a reality show and because of like, what is happening off camera that you're not necessarily capturing on camera. And, like, the. The gaps between. I'm doing bunny ears, like, reality and reality. And so that's where the idea for that. That came from.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

And it's so spot on.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Thank you.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

So spot on. I've experienced that in real life. I'm sure you have, and you can't. I have had a really hard time explaining that to my listeners. Like, that's the one piece I. The. This is so crazy that this all played out the way it did with you coming on today, because that is happening in my life in real time.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Okay.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

With the way that a friendship has unraveled and reality TV and the podcast and all of these things that I literally have a meeting with a manager on how to address all of it. Because how do you explain to an audience. Right. That this is reality, but so is this.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Right.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

This wasn't.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

You're not able to disclose everything.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Thank you.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

That.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Thank you.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

I think that's the real thing. And sometimes, because I'm a huge reality TV fan, and sometimes when I'm watching these shows and I don't quite understand, like, a. There's like, a beef between. Between two cast members, and I'm like, over that. And I always say to myself, there's definitely stuff that's going on that we're not privy to, because there's no way someone is, like, this worked up over being, like, left off a group text about a meal train. Like, for a friend that's having a mommy makeover.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

I'm talking about the Valley. If anyone is like, I recognize this. What are you talking.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

I just went on Britney's podcast.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Oh, no way. I love her podcast.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

I next I'm gonna see if I can connect you guys, because that would be cool. You guys could talk reality and you would get along with low. You give low vibes.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

I love.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

No, she was the sweetest. I tried to actually meet up with her today because I was on her podcast, and, you know, podcast swaps are big. Yeah.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah.

[Ad Read Announcer]

So.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

But she. She had another obligation.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

That's what I love, the podcast. Podcast swaps are big because it's in the publishing world. It's like blurb swaps. Like, I'll blurb your book, you blurb mine. Or, like, I'll moderate your event, you moderate mine. Like, that's just. That's how it works.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Which is so cool because I. And I always ask people. So I'm gonna ask you as well, like, if authors like to collab if they've ever thought about collabing. The general consensus that I'm getting from authors is that collabing on books is a big no.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

But the blurb thing is a big yes.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

I am not down for collabing only because my process. And I imagine if that's what you're hearing across the board, I imagine my process is probably quite similar to theirs, which is there is no process. And, like, I can't really pin down. Like, I can't say, like, okay, I'll deliver this many words or this for this chapter, and then you deliver this. Because, like, I don't plot. You know, Like, I just kind of see where the story. I have a general sense of, like. Like, what the conflict is, like, what the drama is, who the character is. But a lot of that falls away in the. When I actually start writing, because whatever my intentions are going in, like, inevitably, the story takes a turn that I never would have seen coming. And there's this quote that I really like to remind myself of when I'm, like, getting frustrated. Like, I don't. I'm having writer's block. I don't know where to go next to the story. But it's. Inspiration finds you working. And I really find it to be true, which is like. Like, even if I'm writing something I'm eventually going to, like, throw out, it will ultimately usually lead me to, okay, this is actually where the story needs to go, you know, so let me just trash this and I can sit down and, like, write this new twist or whatever.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

But it would be so difficult to do that with another author, especially if you kind of. What is it called? A pantser. Oh, plotter.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Or a panther plotter or pantser. That's right. Yes.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Is that what it's called?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

No, you're absolutely right.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

I've met a couple. Like, some authors that I've talked to are plotters, but I wish I could be a plotter.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

It sounds so. It sounds so clean to be a plotter.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

I don't think I could do that. Like, I feel similar to you. I'm writing. I'm not writing. I'm trying to get some ideas together for my first novel, fiction novel. I would not be able to plot that all out.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Like, it's just kind of comes to me as I go. That's why it's like, this might come out in five years. I don't know.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Right.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

So when you're. Because you're not a plotter, how do you meet deadlines? Do you meet Deadlines or do you kind of work with your publisher and you're like, I don't know when I'm going to have this, but here's a general idea of when.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

So I don't, I'm not really given deadlines.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Oh, good. Okay.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

So although my, my publisher would say just say the sooner the better.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Sure.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

But I generally operate on like a three year cycle.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

I love that though.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah. The only, the, the. So I, this will be my fourth book between Favorite Sister and Bright Young Women, which was my third book.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. I was gonna get to that.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

That was the biggest gap. That was five years, I think. But between all my other novels it's been about three years. So I usually write for about two years. I usually have a first draft to turn in at the year point and then I, you know, I usually get feedback that like the, like the story can be good, but it's not yet good and I kind of dismantle the whole thing and put it back together. And that usually takes about year. And then there's like a year out for kind of the whole publication process.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

How do you handle the, we'll call it constructive criticism.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

And do you ever give pushback on, you know, if someone, if your publisher or editor comes to you and is like, we need to change a few things.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

How do you handle that? I have, I can't handle rejection.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

So if, if they tell me one thing, I now I hate myself. Right. Like, I can't do anything right. I don't know how I'm going to fix this. You know, I'm not good enough. How do you handle that?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

I mean, I have pretty much the same reaction. It's very, I find it to be very depleting to like turn something in and you've spent so much time on it and to hear it still needs so much more work.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

But you also know that's coming. Like, you know they're going to give you.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

So I think I've gotten better because I, I, I know it's, I've accepted that it's part of the process. I'll see how it goes with the next one. But I will say, like, even with Helpless, it didn't make it any easier. Like, it's just very frustrating because you're like, okay, it's not working, but I'm the one that has to figure out how to make it work. And so I, I just try and step away from it a little bit and just like let my mind kind of like wander and come back to it. Fresh and I just like plug away at it. But honestly it really, it really brings me down. Like it, I feel very. It almost like makes me feel like lethargic and fatigued. Like it takes so much out of me.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Are we sisters? Everything you're saying is me.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

I think maybe our is okay.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Well I think, I think it's actually good for people to hear especially anyone who's like in a. Pursuing something creative that I think it is actually a very familiar feeling. Like it's really hard to receive criticism. But I, I sometimes I think when I hear from other authors I admire that they struggle with it too. That makes it easier for me to be like this is just part of the process. Not just my process but the process for like a lot of people.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

I have a. I was telling you earlier I have a book club and I do have an author that's typically always in there and we did one of her books for our book club pick of the month and, and she self publishes and that was one of the things that we briefly discussed was she didn't want to sign with a publisher initially because she didn't want to take things out of her book. She didn't want to. You know there's certain details I think to what you're saying is like I worked so hard on this. I want this in here. I don't want to hear what you have to say about my work or you know, but for me I want the best outcome for the readers. I don't want to lose attention span towards with filler content. And that's no knock to her at all. She has great books. Her books are fantastic. I just for me it's like I want the feedback but I'm also going to be hurt by the feedback and so that could be really difficult I would imagine. I have way too much free time said no one ever. Work, appointments, family and friends. Life is non stop. And trying to find a new place on top of all of that, completely overwhelming. That's where Apartments.com comes in. In if you want to make time for the things you love, but you still need to find your next home. Apartments.com has tools to make your home search so much easier. And it's all on one site with 3D virtual tours to get a peek at a rental listing. Online tour scheduling plus the ability to see the exact unit you're interested in and apply for a place with one click. Renters can handle it all on apartments.com make your move from the comfort of anywhere and make more time for you. Join the millions of happy renters and visit apartments.com. the place to find a place.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

I think it's a good sign to want the feedback, because I do think, at least for me, like, I. I do. I do take. I mean, first of all, I, like, really trust the people around me. So, like, I really trust my editor. I really, really trust my book agent. My book agent and I have been together since we were. We've known each other since we were 22. We started as assistants at a town and literary agency just out of. We realized we were from the same. You're from Pennsylvania? Yeah.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Where are you from?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

I'm from. So I'm from a little town called Chester Springs, which is kind of like Westchester area. Okay. But I went to high school on the Main Line, which is like, Philly suburbs.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

And she did, too. We went to different high schools, though, and we just realized, like, we knew a ton of the same people. We had, like, a lot in common. And because Luckiest Girl takes takes place in, like, her. Her, like, formative years are in Pennsylvania, she really, like, got the kind of environment that I was trying to create.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Right.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

But she's really my. Always my first reader. And it's really her advice that I trust. Like, I'm like, that's my ride or die. Like, I'll follow her anywhere. So I'm lucky that I have those people. But I always tell people, like, join a writers group. Like, join a critique group. Like, you can find them on Facebook. Like, you can find them on social media. And I think it's really. It's nice to. To bounce ideas off other creatives and just have a couple of people that, like, you trust to read your work and that you like that they happen to be readers, too.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

That's important.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

I think that's really important.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

So I just want to touch on that really briefly. Just because you brought it up, but having people who read books, if you are. So many people ask me about writing books, and I'm not a seasoned author. I feel like this would be more for you to answer, but when I published my first book, I didn't have anyone in my corner to kind of read it. And the funniest thing to me now is, like, hardcover is a no. Like, people don't. We don't love hardcover. And I didn't know that, and I pushed for hardcover so hard. So just, like, little things, like aesthetic things that I didn't think of, but I didn't think about that for, like, the actual content of the book. And to your point, I think just having people who are already in the book world to give feedback because they're regular readers, people who aren't regular readers and are just, you know, maybe pick up a memoir or a fiction book here and there are not gonna pick up on the same things as people in the reading community. And so I think that's a really good point. Is anyone who's listening that wants to write, definitely find your people. And I think a lot of authors that I talk to, they have a beta group or some sort of like first readers community where they're getting those ideas and regular feedback. I think that's great. Yeah, I just, I'm an overshadow error by nature and I feel like I would be writing a 600 page book because I'm including details that nobody cares about.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

So Sarah J. Maas length on something that does not have that much time. Yeah.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Okay, so you wrote your debut novel was Luckiest Girl Alive, Then you write the Favorite Sister.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yes.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Your third book is Bright Young Women.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yes.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Which is about Ted Bundy and the women.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah, so that one is a bit of a departure for me because all my other novels are contemporary. But. But Bright Young Women is a fictional account of the crimes of famous infamous serial killer Ted Bundy. But it's told through the perspective of the women who survived him. So there was a lot of research involved in that one and I just wanted to try something new. And I had watched a documentary about him on Netflix during the pandemic. And I, because I'm, I. I'm drawn to true crime, I'm drawn to thrillers, mysteries, anything dark. I thought I kind of knew the story of him. But then when I watched the documentary, it left me with so many more questions than answers. And I just started like doing some digging on my own. And I was like, wow, there's some like, he what? A lot of times my writing starts by something that pisses me off. And the thing that pissed me off is he was portrayed as being like, so cunning and clever and smart. And I was like, he actually wasn't. And he, he was always spoken of in these very like, you know, breathless tones as being like this budding law student. I'm like, he went to like law school for like a semester and he didn't even get accepted anywhere good. And he dropped and started murdering women. Like, he. I don't know, I just felt there was a mythology that a very like male centered media at the time created around him and it was not deserved at all. And Actually, the resilience of the women who were impacted by him was actually the story that hadn't been told. And I was, like, pissed off that that story wasn't told. So that's kind of where that idea came from.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

That makes so much sense.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

When I watch. I don't know if it's the same documentary, but I've seen documentaries about him. Like, they all describ. Describe him as charismatic and just such. This, you know, great, seemingly great guy.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Right.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

I never really got those vibes. No.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Like, and you would never suspect it from him. And, like, I actually interviewed one of the survivors, and she was like, he was. And there were accounts from women who were like, he gave me the creeps. Like, it felt like women like, you have that gut feeling. Like, you know, and I just felt like it was such a discredit to the women who were just like, oh, the wool was pulled over my eyes. I don't think any woman was like that. I think a lot of. He was able to convince women to go off with him, not because he was so charming, but because women, and I don't want to say innately, actually, we are conditioned to be people pleasers. And, like, we're aware of that now in a way that still makes it hard to, like, turn that off, you know, like, and to set boundaries and to, like, say no to someone who's asking for your help. Because a lot of times he would. He would put on, like, a fake cast or he would have fake crutches, and then he would appeal to women to help him. And it's hard in 2026, as a woman to, like, say no in a situation like that. So imagine a young woman in 1976 where there are not conversations around, like, it's okay to say no. Like, it's okay if someone thinks you're a. For saying no.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Like, not in the 1970s.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Not in the 1970s. So I just felt like that that piece of it was, like, missing from. For, like, all the novels and movies and documentaries that were made about him. No one had really addressed that part of it. And, like, that was what I was hoping to do with that book.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Well, I would say you accomplished that.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Would you ever write anything like that again?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah, I would, because I really, really enjoyed that. I really, really enjoyed. I. I like things that are ripped from headlines, and I like. I like stories that you think you know, but you actually don't like. That's very, very compelling to me. So, like, if I ever came across that kind of untold part of the story for something that was. That was, you know, very widely known or that people think they know. I think that could pull me back in.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Possibly that theme right there that you just described, like, where you think you know, but you don't.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Don't. I love that.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

It's also in Luckiest girl alive.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yes, 100%.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Do you remember that MTV show, I think it was called MTV Diaries. And it's like, you think you know, but you have no idea.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yes.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

I'm sure that that's. That's like. That's somehow, like, captured in my brain from, like, all the after school hours of MTV that I watch, like. But I know exactly what you mean. You think you know, but you have no idea.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, I remember watching that when I was younger. It was like Britney Spears, Jessica Simpson, Christina Aguilera, and I think there was some guys thrown in there. But to your point, like, very male heavy media at that time. And going back to that, I was thinking about, like, the 19. My mom was born in the 1960s, and I think during that era was still like, women are barefoot in the kitchen tending after men, and you don't say no to your husband or you don't say no to it. Like, you very much are conditioned to kind of do what a man says. So if a man comes up to you and looks kind of vulnerable or, you know, injured, you're thinking, okay, maybe I shouldn't do this, but I'm right.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Like, you have an afterthought. You have the feeling of, like, this is not a good idea, not a good idea. But you literally don't have the language to say no.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Right.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Because. Because I had to develop the language to say no to things like that took a lot of work, you know, And I just don't think there was any. There was any sense that, like, that women could. Could do that back then.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

No, I agree with you. I mean, obviously I wasn't born in the 1970s, but I. From what I've seen and read and things like that. So what does this look like for helpless? So you've had success on all your novels so far? Yeah. What does that look like? Like. Like, are you gonna maybe option out helpless?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yes. Some exciting things are happening with that. Some exciting things are happening with bright young women too. I love working on that side of things.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Well, if you need anyone for the favorite sister, let me know. Well, I'll make a cameo. Who would you say you look up to the most? Author Wise.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Gillian Flynn.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. Have you met. Have you.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

No, I've never met her. And I talk about her incessantly in, like, every interview I give, and I'm sure she's never even heard them. Like, she definitely doesn't know who I am, but she pro. I don't know. She's pretty insular from what I've heard. And she's also, like. I think she's just, like, doing whatever the hell she wants to do.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Because she should.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

As she should. But I hope at one point something that she actually wants to do is write another book, because I'll be that first. Pre order.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

She wrote Sharp Objects, right?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Oh, my God.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

I just read that. I read that maybe within the last six months.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

That's a deep cut.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

So that's actually my favorite. So she's written three books, and that's actually my favorite of her three books.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

It's so funny.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

It's her debut. Yeah. That was her debut novel, Sharp Objects. Yeah. Okay.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

And then.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

So Gone Girl was her third. Is her. Is the last book she's ever written, and that's her third novel.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Do we know why she's not writing anymore?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

I think. I mean, first of all, I think she was snowed in by a lot of screenwriting work because she not only adapted Gone Girl, but then she did a show for Amazon prime, and then she wrote this, like, Criminally, I think, think maybe like, a known film called Widows. And it's such a good movie. You should watch it. But it stars Viola Davis and she's incredible.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Is it on Netflix or where is it on?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

It was theatrical. It came out probably. I want to say, like, it was definitely pre pandemic because I actually remember going to see it in theaters with my mom because we have, like, very similar tastes. And there was, like, a lot of, like, cursing and whatever. And I was like, we have a lot of similar tastes. But, like, I still get uncomfortable with when, like, stuff like that comes up around her because she can be, like, a little prim and proper. And I loved it, but I was so nervous. And as soon as the credits started rolling, she just turned to me and her eyes were huge and she went, I loved it so much. And I was like, oh, thank gosh.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

You're like, I. I understand. As a mom, I get it. Because I'm like. Even when I. The opposite, I'm like, I don't know.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Like with my kids here. Yeah, yeah. That's so funny. Okay, so. So with that being said and just speaking about adaptations and screen rights and things like that. Like, how do you feel? I feel like nobody needs to create anything other than book adaptations to film and tv.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Right.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

There are so many things that I've seen that I've watched on Netflix, Hulu, whatever, that I didn't even know were actually books. Yes. And I'm like, do we even need regular screen, like, original ideas?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's very interesting. Now I'm kind of with you. It's like before, I was kind of saw how the sausage gets made, so to speak. I don't think I realized just how common it is that the IP is usually a novel. And it's a lot of times. I mean, even if you look back at, like, older movies, like, you know, Jaws was a novel, you know, before it was a film. Like, it's actually, you know, so it's a very common practice that things are adapted from books. But I do love an original, too. I really do.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

What would you say is your favorite original right now?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Oh, God,

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

not so Put you on the spot.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

I know. Now I'm on the spot. Widow's Bay.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

What is that?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

It's on Apple. I don't even know how to describe it. It's like horror, but comedy. Did you like Stranger Things?

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

I didn't see it. My kids love it.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Okay. It has a very Stranger Things vibe where it's like, kind of. It's a little bit cozy and, like, and. And humorous, but then there's, like, legitimately scary parts. And it's about an island off the coast of Massachusetts called Widows Bay. And there have long been, like, rumors that it's haunted or it's cursed, and something wakes the curse up that summer. And it's mostly told through the perspective of the. Of the town mayor, who's played by Matthew Reese, who is married to Keri Russell, and they starred in the Americans together. And he's, like, one of my favorite actors ever. He's act. I believe he's Scottish, but he. You would never know. Like, it doesn't.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

They always turn their accents off?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah, yeah, he turns it off. But it is so original. I'm actually shocked it got made. It's so original because I. I feel. Not feel. I actually know that networks and studios are terrified of things that cannot be be put into, like, a clean box. And this is definitely one of those things.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

It's giving what you're describing. Stranger Things, because from what I know about it, I've never seen it. But also, what was the other one that was like in the House. It was like horror. What is it?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Was it on Netflix?

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Not Amityville. Horror. It's like Kim Kardashian was like, briefly on it.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Oh, Ryan Murphy's.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

What is it?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

American Horror Story.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

American Horror Story. Yeah.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah, kind of. That's a little campier, I would say this. I don't know, American Horror Story. I also could be found more disturbing than scary. This is like the shining level. Some episodes are like the shining level scary.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

That I'm like watching between my eyes.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

So probably not for kids, but then some.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Well, I don't know, because then someone told me they're watching it with their 11 year old.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

11 feels a little young, but I mean, whatever. I'm not judging my. My oldest. So son, 16, big horror guy.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

He wants to be a filmmaker. That's like one of the things that

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

he wants to watch. Widow's Bay, Widow's Way.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

So I'm gonna tell him he's big into all of the horror scare scary.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

And I would say the first episode is not that scary. So it might be almost misleading, but there is. The episode that takes place in the hotel to me is like. Like, I crap my pants. Like, I'm so scared.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

I. I have not. I literally have to schedule out stuff. So I don't.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

But I love that because you're. You're reading and you're also. You're a mom of seven kids.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Seven's a lot. Just so y' all know.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

A lot.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, but I. I do typically prefer to read the book first. I find it very difficult to watch something like an adaptation first and then go to the book. I prefer the book first. I just have not had the time. But. Okay. So Widow's Bay, it's on Apple tv.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yes.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

I'm gonna have him watch it.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

So that's exciting.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Report back to me.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, I will. Okay, so you don't really want to collect collab, but if you did, like, in a perfect world, who would be someone that you would collab with?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Well, if I were to collab, I would want to do it on a show or a film.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

And I think the answer would have to be Greta Gerwig.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Okay. Why?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Well, she's brilliant.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

I just. And I also think I would just learn so much from her. Like, I would love to collab. I mean, she collaborates with her husband on, like, you know, sometimes. Sometimes she does her own stuff. But I would love to write something that she would. Wanted to direct. Also. Emerald Fennel, too, because she is. I mean, talk about Dark. Like, she's the one who just did the. The New Wuthering Heights.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Oh, I. That's a book, too. Also, obviously, I need to read it first.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

It's very controversial because people get very kind of prickly about the classics, which is, like, understandable. But I'm kind of like, yeah, there have been so many versions of it. Like, this is hers. You know, like, it's okay if it's not for you, but it's not a crime against humanity. I. I very much enjoyed it.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Do you read reviews?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Unfortunately, yes.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

You do?

[Ad Read Announcer]

Yeah.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

I get so nervous, especially because there are so many authors that I love and I respect them no matter what.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Right.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

But maybe they have several works. I always get real weird about it if I don't like one of them because maybe I've had them on the podcast. I'm like, I love five of your books. I just didn't like this one.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

But that's also okay because not everything is for everyone. That's what makes the world go round.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Okay. So if I maybe didn't like one of an author's books, would. Do you think they would still come on the podcast? Yeah, because I always worry about that.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah, of course.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah. And I also think, like, I sometimes I've read reviews of my novels that say, like, this one wasn't for me, but, like, I will still read anything Jessica Noel writes. And I. I think that that is. First of all, I think. Think that's a form of intelligence. Like, the people who are like, I didn't like this, and I'm never gonna read this offer author again, and blah, blah, blah. I'm like, I don't know. Like, we can hold two truths. Like, I really like this. This person's brain and their writing and their style. But, like, this one wasn't for me. Like, cool. Like, move on to the next one.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Like, that's kind of how I feel.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Right.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Like, I think that's like, a mature way of being so.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

And even the authors who. Like, there's one author that comes to mind. Mind. I've read three or four of her books, and I don't really like any of them, but that doesn't mean I don't like her as a person.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Right.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Like, I respect her as an author.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Well, maybe don't tell her that.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Well, for sure. I also. It wouldn't align, so I just wouldn't. But I. I would never tell somebody else, don't read her books because I don't like them.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yes.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

They're just not for Me. But if they're for you, I'm so happy for you. So it's subjective.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

When you are reading books for fun and not writing them, do you tend to lean more towards like thriller type of genre?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah, really dark up stuff. Like for instance, right now, like there I have a bunch of books that I should be reading for various reasons and I am looking forward to reading them. But for whatever, like dumb reason, I got it in my head that I needed to read we need to Talk about Kevin by Lionel Shriver, which came out like 25 years ago and it was made into a movie with Tilda Swinton. And it's, it's told, it's about a. A school shooter and it's told from the perspective of the mother of the school shooter. And why did I decide that like right now with like everything, all the books stacked on my nightstand, like this was the time that I needed to read this book.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

But I cannot put it down.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

That's giving 19 minutes by Jodi Picoult.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

So I never read that one. But yes, very same vibe there is. I know that that's also about a school shooting.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

School shooter. Yeah. Not all. The entire book is not told, but from the perspective of the shooter's mom. But there are far point of views from her. Yeah, yeah. I lean more towards dark, but I also surprise myself with historical fiction.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Oh, interesting.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Big.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

History.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

What do you like?

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Every World War II, I read a lot of Kristin Hannah.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

I was gonna say, like Kristin Hannah

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

sounds like, I think. And I was never a super great student growing up. And I never like history was okay, but it wasn't like my top, you know, subject. And so I really surprised myself as an adult to read.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah, that's nice.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Historical fiction.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Maybe it just wasn't told to you in like an engaging way, like taught to you in an engaging way, you know?

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. And I think in school when you're in a classroom, it's like, I'd rather be doing other things where now I'm choosing to learn about it. And so it's, it's been really cool because then I can talk to my kids about it. I was able to talk to them about like the Holocaust and Vietnam and things like that. But. Okay, so you are leaning more towards dark. I really need you to read still beating.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Okay.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

If you like dark, add that to your tbr. Even if you don't get it and get to it in the next six months. I understand that they just growing. Yes.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Okay.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Okay. And then I was gonna ask you what would you say is your favorite book of all time?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Oh, favorite book of all time. I think the Secret History by Donna Tartt.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Okay, I don't know that.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

That's also an older book. It probably came out, like, 1995.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Oh, wow.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

It. I think it has the most incredible opening line of any novel ever. And I wish I could. I wish I could recite it word for word, but it's something like the snow was melting in the mountains, and bunny had been de. And it's about a group of college students at a small, private art, like, very elite, small, private arts college in, I believe it's New Hampshire or might be Vermont. And they are Greek mythology majors, and they end up killing one of their best friends. And it is. It is at times, times, like, ludicrously funny, and the writing is so stunning that I just. I will turn to it on any given day and just, like, read a couple of pages to, like, invigorate me and, like, remind me why I want to be a writer.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

What is it called?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

It's called the Secret History by Donna Tartt.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

I'm gonna be reading.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

There's, like, a lore around it because, like, it was supposed to be made into a film in the 90s, and Gwyneth Paltrow was supposed to play Camila, and if you read it like, she is Camila, and, like, it all fell apart, and now, like, Donna Tartt won't give the rights to anyone. And it almost feels like it should never be made, because I don't even know that you could do it justice. Like, it feels like it, like, belongs in the pages of a book and, like, not on screen. Like, there's something about it. Like. Like, I guess, like, if I could be given a chance at adapting that, like, I would be a fool not to do it, but I would be so afraid of messing it up.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Right. You almost cannot cut anything out of it.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah. Like, I.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

It has to be verbat. Like, verbatim.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah. And I think you would also need, like, Donna Tartt's approval. And she's, like, a known recluse, and she's a Pulitzer Prize winning novelist, and, like, I'm sure she's has very high standards, and it's, like, very difficult to please. Like, I would be, like, terrified to meet her, but she's, like, kind of just like a personal hero of mine.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Okay. And would.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

But they say not to meet your personal.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

I know. I. Yeah, I actually probably wouldn't want to meet her.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

I would be. In theory, it sounds good.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

I would just be too afraid, like, I would just be too afraid that, like, I wouldn't be, like, up to par for her and like, I would leave the interaction feeling, like, terribly about myself.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

How do you feel about the discourse in the book community of. About authors using AI or not using AI?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Oh, I mean, I think it's, I, like, it's clear to me. I'm like, you should not be using AI to write your novels. I, I in general, though. And also, I mean, I'm part of a lawsuit of authors against one of the, the big AI programmers. Yeah, I'm sure you are. Because they used our works to, like, train their model.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

So I'm like, that's, that's the biggest in U.S. history.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah. And I'm like, that's unethical and wrong and I obviously abhor that AI in general, I am a little, like, I'm a little like, I don't know that it's going to be the end of humanity as we know it. Like, I'm just, I'm not ready to say that yet. I know a lot of people are saying that. I'm just like, I want to see how things play out. I have a very hard time believing that the model is ever going to be able to replace human talent and a human perspective in a way that is, is, that is compelling enough that we will turn to books written to AI over books that are written to human. Maybe I'm naive.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

No, I, I am kind of with you on that. I, it does scare me. AI scares me.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

The possibility of it definitely. Like, sometimes if I really let myself think, like, okay, well, you know, 15 years ago when I worked in women's magazines and print was still king, and we all scoff, scoffed at digital media and we were like, no, people will never read this magazine online as opposed to, like, picking it up at the newsstand. Like, I'm like, look how that turned out. I'm like, so maybe I should be more frightened. But, like, I don't know from where I stand right now. And I'm like, maybe it will develop into something that, like, I don't know, wipes away my livelihood. I truly hope not, you know, but I, I have and, you know, I just, just have a little bit of faith in human humanity.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

I think people are catching on though, too, with the way and maybe things will evolve. I sort of hope not. But the way that ChatGPT specifically, I don't know, I'm not super familiar with all the different platforms, has a very routine way of answering and so a lot of people are picking up on the, the format of AI answers. And so I think it'll come across in, in books if people do that.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

In a way that readers will recognize that it's AI. And I don't think that people will be able to get away with just using AI. I think it's one thing to use it properly for like resources or like you're stuck at one part. That's one thing, I think. But writing a full novel on AI sounds kind of crazy.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

I wouldn't even use it to be like, if I was like stuck on something plot wise. But I think that I, for the term, for, for the purposes of research seems okay. Although my only question is, can you trust the research? I actually don't know enough about it like, because I think it's just pulling aggregate from the Internet. So I'm like, it could be pulling things that are not actually confirmed.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Sure. You know, I know that very, very well. I. Yeah.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Because I'm sure people have said that even when they look up themselves on AI, it reports things that are not factually true.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

I was in a courtroom with someone who used chat GPT for answering a motion.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Really.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

And the case lost, cited, didn't exist. It wasn't real.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

No way. But how did they figure that out? Just the, did the attorneys just catch it right away?

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

The judge knew, right? The judge knew right away and was like. And my attorney pointed it out before the judge did. But my attorney was like, like, that's, that's not even a real case law. Like.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Right.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

I don't know if it was from a fiction novel or from a fiction work or whatever. And it also, I think from like the 1800s or something. So you're like, it was this from like a historical fiction novel. You know what I mean?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

That's what I'm saying. Like, I just don't fully trust it for sure for those reasons. So I'm like, I don't know, I haven't, I don't really use it. And I'm like, also, maybe I'm being naive for like not familiarizing myself.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Like I think, but that we need more people that are not using it. I. I did ask it for some recipes this morning.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Oh, okay. Like, that's great. Actually, we did use it because my daughter's camp, we had to make lunch and this whole year she's been in school, we haven't had to provide lunch. And so we used chat GPT to give us lunch ideas.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. Like for that kind of stuff. It's great. But when you. When you go into, like, people's works and likeness and novels and. Because then who owns. Who owns this?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Right.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

The author or, you know, AI.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah, I know. That's where it gets a little tricky.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Okay. Does audio. Do audiobooks count as reading?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

They do. And I'm a recent. I've turned around on this recently because if you had asked me a year ago, I would have said no. But do you know what changed it for me was Lena Dunham's memoir.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Why?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Because I loved it so much. When I wasn't able to physically be at home reading it, I needed to be listening to it. So, like, when I was walking home from dropping my daughter off from school, I'm like. Like, I couldn't wait to get home to read it. Like, I needed it in my ear.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

And, I mean, my editor has been banging on about this too. Like, there are actual studies that show that it activates the same region of the brain that is activated when you're reading something, you know, hardcover. So that experience, I was like, okay, I need to, like, stop being such a holdout about this. Like, it definitely counts.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

I. When I first entered the book world, I was physically reading so many books, and then I would.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

I still prefer to physically read 1000%.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

But sometimes, I mean, like, just driving into the city is three hours for me. Like, yeah, I don't care about. Let me not say I don't care about music. It's just not my thing. So I'd rather listen to a book. I'd rather get, you know, further into whatever I'm reading or whatever. But early on, I felt the same way.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

I was like, yeah, it's cheating getting

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

on book club or not book club, getting on book talk. And these girls are saying they read or read 15 books with the. Then you continue watching the video, and they're like, we. We actually listen to it.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

And I'm like, I would get so mad, but I'm like, who cares? It's the same content, audio or. Or visual. So at the end of the day, you. You listen to it, you list. It's just a different form.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

How about Kindle versus physical copy?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

I still prefer a physical copy. And Kindle is really only if I'm into something so much that I want to read it after my husband has fallen asleep.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

And I'm trying not to. To, like, you know, have the lights on. Have the lights on. So that's usually when I turn to Kindle. I mean, even when I travel, like, for vacation, you know, I'll pack books. And I'm like, oh, this is like weighing my suitcase down so much. I should just bring my Kindle. But like, I, I don't like what changed?

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

That's what turned me into a Kindle. Kindle girly is travel. I would bring like 10 books with me. I know because I read on the plane, I read at home. As soon as we go lay down to go to bed, I'm reading. And so. But it was too much.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

But do you know, I actually don't have a Kindle. I'm just reading on my iPad. So I wonder if I just got a Kindle, if I would be much more of a Kindle reader.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Because the iPad still has like blue light. But I think Kindle doesn't.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

I know. And I find it, I find it a little dense to read on the Kindle. And for whatever reason my. Sorry. On the iPad. And for whatever reason my iPad is like quite large. So it's not. It just feels, feels like bulky. Yeah. I don't know. So. Yeah, maybe I need to like invest.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

I love my Kindle and I. So my daughter, she's two and. You have a daughter too?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah, she's two and a half. Yeah.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, she's two and a half.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

And kids are so funny because they pick up on things that you don't realize that they picked on up on. And she walks over to me the one day and she goes, here's your Kindle. And I go, what?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Year two.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

What do you know about a Kindle?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Like, and I don't like the word yes.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

And I don't remember ever saying around her. And she's here's your Kindle.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

I know.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

And then at night I lay with my toddler. I have three toddlers. Two twin to two and a half year old. And then my three year old. And when I'm laying with them, sometimes my 3 year old will go, do you have your Kindle?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Oh my God, that sounds really sweet.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

And I love. It's hard because it's like I don't want my kids to have too much screen stuff like screen time, games, all of that.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

They can't quite comprehend that like this. It doesn't really count as screen time. Cause it's reading.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. But it's just so cute because I'm like, oh, okay. If I can't get them to pick, want to pick up a physical copy of a book, but they're willing to like pick up a Kindle at some point because they have kids ones now.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Oh, oh, do they?

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Yes. So there's like kid versions of the Kindles or whatever. And I thought that was so cool, but I'm like, as long as they see me reading.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah, right.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

That's because I didn't grow up a reader. I became a reader as an adult. So I think that's really cool. And last thing is, what are you reading right now?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

I'm. I'm reading. We need to talk about Kevin, by the way.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

So for those of you who don't know, helpless comes out July 7th. You can get it wherever you get your books. Check your local stores first. Amazon, Barnes and Noble Books, a million Y. Okay. And where can people find you on socials?

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Jessica Noel, author.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

On. On Instagram. That's pretty much the only thing I'm active on.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

That's okay.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Yeah.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

So Jessica Noel on Instagram.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Jessica. No, author.

[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Perfect. Thank you so much for being up early for the house.

[Ad Read Announcer]

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[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

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[Ad Read Announcer]

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[Kayla (Podcast Host)]

Okay, guys, we're back. You asked for it. And we're delivering. Killer is going on tour. We're super excited for the fatherless behavior tour. 23 cities, three countries, all in one summer. And you guys can check out tour dates and see if we're coming to a city near you on killlowry.com and if you want early access to information and information announcements, head over to Patreon because you might get it before everyone else. Finding the one can feel impossible. And in today's world, it's even harder. False profiles, inaccurate pictures, incompatibilities, ghosting on dates. Is this sounding familiar? But if you're ready to make the move to a new place, it doesn't have to feel like dating. All it takes is a simple search on apartments.com to find your perfect match. Whether you're looking for a three bedroom condo downtown, a two bedroom duplex in a quiet neighborhood neighborhood, a cozy studio in a walkable city, or even a single family home in a cul de sac. You can find a place that checks all the right boxes. So whichever stage of life you're in, settle down in your perfect home by using apartments.com no more swiping or awkward first dates. Make it easier to get a place that gets you. Visit apartments.com, the place to find a place.

[Jessica Knoll (Author Guest)]

Hi there, it's Becca Tobin. I am currently the mother of a four year old, which means I have been through it. But I still have questions and maybe even a few answers. From surrogacy to toddler chaos, I have learned a lot and also not nearly Enough. That's why I decided to launch Baby Gang, a six part series from the Lady Gang where I'm getting real about fertility, parenting and all the stuff nobody actually tells you. I'm bringing in some experts for the tough stuff and some other celeb moms and friends for parenting survival stuff. It's honest, it's messy, it's emotional, and yes, we are definitely laughing through it. Because whether you're in it, thinking about it it or just curious, we've got you. So join the Baby Gang wherever you get your podcasts. Hi friends, it's Michelle Maros, co host of Life Happens with Barb and Michelle. If you're navigating change, growth, relationships, stress, or simply trying to figure life out one day at a time, this podcast is for you. My mom, Barb and I are a mother daughter duo who talk honestly about real life experiences, the messy moments, the ups and downs, and everything in between. Each week we share heartfelt conversations, laughs and practical tools to help people feel a little more grounded and a lot less alone as they navigate life's twists and turns. Because life happens to all of us and we truly believe we're all in it together. Be sure to follow, rate and review Life Happens wherever you get your podcast and come ride the wave of life with us.

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