Never Too Old For This With Samantha Downing

Summary

Barely Famous Podcast Episode Summary: "Never Too Old For This With Samantha Downing"

Release Date: August 15, 2025

Host: Kail Lowry
Guest: Samantha Downing, Best-Selling Thriller Author

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1. Introduction to Samantha Downing

In this episode of Barely Famous, host Kail Lowry welcomes Samantha Downing, a best-selling thriller author known for her gripping narratives that transform seemingly perfect relationships into intense suspenseful tales. Samantha’s upcoming book, "Too Old for This," is set to release in August 2025. Kail expresses enthusiasm about reading Samantha's latest work, highlighting its appeal to readers seeking a quick and engaging read.

Notable Quote:
Kail Lowry [02:11]: "I'm reading Too Old for This right now, and I love it so much."

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2. Samantha’s Journey to Publishing

Samantha delves into her unconventional path to becoming a published author. Before her debut novel, "My Lovely Wife," released in 2019, Samantha worked in an administrative role within a manufacturing company. Writing was purely a hobby for her until a fortuitous connection through a writing group led to her first publishing deal. Despite writing twelve books prior, "My Lovely Wife" was her first to be published, sold in just two days after being picked up by an agent.

Notable Quote:
Samantha Downing [04:06]: "It was actually a fluke. I never thought about getting published."

---

3. Writing Process: Pantser vs. Plotter

Samantha identifies as a "pure pantser," meaning she writes without a predetermined plot or outline. She discovers the story organically, writing chapter by chapter and allowing the narrative to evolve naturally. This method contrasts with plotters, who meticulously plan their stories in advance.

Notable Quote:
Samantha Downing [15:09]: "Pantser is short for fly by the seat of your pants. I don't plot anything. I write chapter by chapter."

---

4. Character Development and Inspirations

Samantha discusses her approach to creating memorable characters, emphasizing the importance of unique and distinct names to help readers keep track of them. She draws inspiration from observing real-life relationships and behaviors, which informs the nuanced interactions in her books. Samantha also touches upon incorporating traits from people she knows, ensuring her characters remain original and relatable.

Notable Quote:
Samantha Downing [22:55]: "I rarely pick names that start with the same letter or that have the same sound. I want them to be different so readers can keep them straight."

---

5. Themes and Motifs in Her Works

Her novels often explore dark and twisted relationships, delving into the complexities of human behavior and the extremes of love and obsession. In "Too Old for This," Samantha introduces an elderly female protagonist, Lottie, who navigates her own set of challenges, reflecting Samantha's personal experiences with health issues and adaptation.

Notable Quote:
Samantha Downing [48:19]: "Lottie is doing what she has to do to protect herself, her family, her life. There's no questioning her behavior."

---

6. The Publishing Landscape and Authorial Pressure

Samantha shares insights into the publishing industry, emphasizing that success is rarely overnight. She highlights the significance of writing groups and networking in finding the right opportunities. Additionally, she acknowledges the pressure authors face to continuously produce and maintain their standing, especially with the influx of new debut authors.

Notable Quote:
Samantha Downing [07:09]: "There are no overnight successes. The work is done somewhere, even if you don't see it."

---

7. Handling Dark Twists and Reader Expectations

When discussing her writing style, Samantha explains her strategy for incorporating multiple twists to keep readers engaged and surprised. She aims to subvert predictable patterns by ensuring that even if readers anticipate certain outcomes, the narrative takes unexpected turns.

Notable Quote:
Samantha Downing [40:08]: "I try to switch it up. I don't want to do anything obvious. I try not to."

---

8. Future Projects and Continuing the Legacy

While Samantha remains committed to writing, she does not currently have specific projects in the pipeline. However, she assures listeners that more thrilling novels are on the horizon, each exploring different facets of human psychology and complex relationships.

Notable Quote:
Samantha Downing [54:16]: "I'm always writing, but I don't have anything specific right now."

---

9. Concluding Thoughts

Samantha emphasizes the importance of understanding and not underestimating those around us. Through her characters, she portrays the hidden depths and potential darkness within seemingly ordinary individuals, offering readers a chilling reminder that appearances can be deceiving.

Notable Quote:
Samantha Downing [53:35]: "You don't really know the person next to you or what they're up to. Don't underestimate anybody."

---

Author’s Contact Information

For more information about Samantha Downing and her works, visit her website at SamanthaDowning.com or follow her on Instagram and Facebook.

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This episode provides a deep dive into Samantha Downing's creative process, her journey as an author, and the intricate themes she weaves into her thrillers. Listeners gain valuable insights into the art of crafting suspenseful narratives and the dedication required to succeed in the competitive world of publishing.

Transcript

[Kale]

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[Trevor]

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[Samantha Downing]

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[Trevor]

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[Kale]

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[Trevor]

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[Kale]

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[Samantha Downing]

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[Uncle Frank]

Inspiration to us all. But who was your muse?

[Kale]

My dear old nan. She would tell me, always remember to be true to yourself and to use that fast and friendly claim support on the Geico app.

[Samantha Downing]

I follow her advice to this day.

[Kale]

Get more than just savings.

[Trevor]

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[Kale]

Welcome to the show. Things are going to get weird. It's your fave villain, Kale and you're.

[Podcast Host]

Listening to Barely Famous.

[Kale]

Welcome back to Barely Famous. Today's guest is a best selling thriller author, Samantha Downing. She's known for my lovely wife. He started it in a twisted story. Her newest book, too old for this comes out August 2025. Her books turn picture perfect relationships into jaw dropping Susp Spence and we're talking plot twists, writing behind the scenes and what really goes into creating characters you love to hate. Too old for this. It'll keep you on your toes and get you out of a reading slump. So if you are looking for a book like that, I highly suggest it. Samantha Downing, thank you so much for joining us on Barely Famous. Podcast.

[Samantha Downing]

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

[Kale]

I'm excited to have you and excited to be reading your book. I'm reading too old for this right now, and I love, love, love that you went into it and dove head first, like, favorite thing about a book. It'll get you out of a reading slump. It's good for anyone who just wants a quick read. I love it so much.

[Samantha Downing]

Thank you.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Samantha Downing]

Thank you. I'm glad you're enjoying it.

[Kale]

Yes. So your debut novel, My Lovely Wife, came out in 2019. Is that right? What was the inspiration for that book?

[Samantha Downing]

That book actually came from a documentary I watched about a man and a woman who had kidnapped the husband and wife who kidnapped a woman and held her hostage in their house. And we hear this a lot about men doing it. But it was so interesting that a woman was involved. And I started thinking, now, that case turned out very differently. The woman ended up letting the girl go and testifying against her husband in the real story. But it made me think, if a woman was going to do this, actually kidnap another woman and hold her hostage, who would that woman be? And I created this character of Millicent, and her and her husband do this together, and she's more of the driving force in that particular story.

[Kale]

So sinister.

[Samantha Downing]

Very.

[Kale]

So what were you. What was your career path before you. Before your first novel then? Because that's. That was pretty recent. 2019.

[Samantha Downing]

Yes, it was. I did something totally different. I was working for a manufacturing company. Okay. Mostly administrative and nothing to do with writing. I never studied writing. It was something I did as a hobby for many years. My Lovely wife was the 12th book I wrote.

[Kale]

But you didn't publish any of the other ones before that. Why. Why, My Lovely Wife? Did you feel like this is the one I'm gonna move forward with?

[Samantha Downing]

It was actually a fluke. I never thought about getting published. To me, when I first looked at publishing, it was this labyrinth that. To try to maneuver through and getting agents. And I had no pedigree. I had no degree. I didn't know anybody in the business. So I kind of just put it aside and did it as a hobby and thought, I'm never gonna get published. I'm not one of these people. And I joined a writing group and someone in the writing of the book and knew somebody who went to high school with somebody who became an agent in New York. And this is when I was living in New Orleans. And New Orleans sort of survives on who, you know. Yeah. And she sent it to her friend and said, send it to your friend. The agent. And he did. And the agent contacted me and he did not even represent fiction books. He did nonfiction books. But he said, I know somebody who would love this. Send it to her. And her name is Barbara. And she became my agent and she sold my lovely wife in two days.

[Kale]

Oh my gosh.

[Samantha Downing]

And so over the course of a month, my whole life changed, basically.

[Kale]

Yeah. But what's so funny is you talked about a writing group. I think Abby Jimenez talked about a writing group. So many authors that I've talked to have talked about writing groups and I think that's so interesting because I don't think that people that you know today, that they want to be authors, I don't think they realize that that can actually be their way into publishing.

[Samantha Downing]

Yes.

[Kale]

Did you ever think about self publishing?

[Samantha Downing]

I did not. No, I didn't. I didn't know I had a full time job. I didn't know anything about it and I just, I just really liked the writing aspect of it. That's what I concentrated on. So when it came up, I was, when this opportunity came up, I was lucky that I had written a book that somebody wanted and that somebody thought could sell and that people would want to read.

[Kale]

So do you have any plans to publish the rest of the 11 books that you wrote?

[Samantha Downing]

No, no, they're all terrible.

[Kale]

So what was your entrance into the publishing world like? Did it. Was it fairly easy since you sort of knew somebody, or was it still really hard to get, you know, your book published and enter the book space?

[Samantha Downing]

Well, my agent sold it very quickly to Berkeley at Penguin Random House. My editor, Jen Monroe, and it was a two book deal and then I signed a three book deal. So I've had five books and too old for this is the, the fifth book. And so I guess from that aspect it was kind of easy. My work was all done in the front end, the 20 years of writing I did to get there. So I truly believe there are no overnight successes. The work is done somewhere, even if you don't see it. So I had a quick transition into publishing after writing 12 books. Some people, they put in the work in the querying when they're trying to get an age, what we call querying, you're querying agents and trying to get an agent. And it takes years to go through that process. Somewhere behind the scenes work is always done. There's no true overnight successes.

[Kale]

Yeah. What was everyone's reaction when you released My Lovely Wife?

[Samantha Downing]

The funny thing is I hadn't told anybody. I didn't tell anybody I was a writer. Not my family, not the people I worked with. So it all came, I think, is a bombshell. I thought I said, so I'm a writer, and I sold this book, and I have this book coming out, and I didn't tell anybody until after it actually sold, until I had a publishing contract in my hand. I didn't tell anybody. And they would just say, wait, go back. You're a writer? And you did what? And you have what? And I'd say, look, here's the COVID of the book. It's coming out in March. And they just all were staring at me like I was an alien. It was really funny.

[Kale]

But were they super supportive?

[Samantha Downing]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, Absolutely.

[Kale]

Talk to other authors in the industry as well, and what has their reaction been to you? And especially in, like, the thriller genre.

[Samantha Downing]

I think everybody's journey is so unique that everybody's got a great story to tell. So it. It sounds like it's one of those things where it wouldn't have happened if my friend hadn't sent it in and sent it in, and it got. It happened. So because I wasn't sending it out, I wasn't really querying at the time and. Or trying to get an agent. I was kind of. I was starting to attend a couple of conferences and feeling more. I was feeling more conf. After going to the writers group. The writers group was really important for my writing because you really get an objective opinion from people who don't know you are reading your writing for the first time, and they're just giving you what they think, and you get a sense of whether or not you're writing something that is being interpreted the way you mean it, or people are interpreting it in a completely different way, which is always interesting because I may mean it one way, and people say, oh, I hate that character. And I thought, I love that character. I love that character. Wait, what? That's a bad character.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Well, what is that like?

[Kale]

Because you. You have your own vision when you're writing a story, right? So when you. When people talk to you about how they interpret things, is that. Is that so weird?

[Samantha Downing]

So weird. I think it's the weirdest thing because it's. It can be so off in my head. I think it's so clear. And then someone else, you know, we all see things differently. We all see what we want to see and bring our own experiences to it, and they can say, no, that's a great character. That's a terrible character or I saw that twist coming or I didn't see that twist coming. And it's so strange to hear somebody do that. That's what's so strange about reading reviews even.

[Kale]

Do you read your own reviews?

[Samantha Downing]

I try not to.

[Kale]

I can imagine I haven't seen any bad ones but like about you or your books, but I can imagine that that would be challenging.

[Samantha Downing]

It's really hard to put something out there, I think for any artist or any writer that you spent so many writing and editing and trying to make it the best possible and. And then you fling it out into the world and hope for the best.

[Kale]

But people will rip it to shreds.

[Samantha Downing]

Sure.

[Kale]

For anybody, not just you. But when we were talking about perspectives or perceptions rather, and we all play the comparison game game a little bit. So when it comes to like book to movie or TV adaptations, I feel like we all have this like vision in our head about what the books are that we're reading, the characters, how they look. And then when it break, it's been being brought to the big screen, the perception changes a little bit. And so it sort of goes hand in hand in hand. Do you, would you ever sell the rights to your books for an adaptation, a movie or TV adaptation?

[Samantha Downing]

Some of them have been optioned before, but nothing has ever gone into production. So we'll see if it ever happens. You know, it's always the dream to see that. And I know people ask me a lot, what who would you cast in these? And it's not something I think about when I'm writing. I don't think about actors or actresses when I'm writing. No, not at all. I see them as just the, the people in my head and they're, they're always, they're, they're not so specific as a specific person.

[Kale]

Sure.

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[Kale]

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[Samantha Downing]

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[Samantha Downing]

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[Kale]

And when you are writing, and you're in the middle of your writing process, what type of writer are you? What? Pantser. Plotter. What are you?

[Samantha Downing]

Pure pantser.

[Kale]

Okay. I don't anything for any. For any listener who doesn't know what a. What a pantser is.

[Podcast Host]

Could you talk about that?

[Samantha Downing]

Sure. Pantser is short for fly by the seat of your pants. That's meaning you don't have a plot, you don't have a plan. You haven't outlined the book. You sit down in the computer and fly by the seat of your pants. And so I don't plot anything. I write chapter by chapter. And each chapter I write, every decision you make leads to further decisions, and the story starts to take shape as I go. So I sort of discover the story the same way a reader does. It comes to me that way. And I usually, when I'm writing, I write a chapter a day, and then I think about that chapter overnight. And the next morning I get up and write another chapter. And it's. It sort of comes that way. It means I also have to do a lot of editing in the book and changing things and what have you. But I tried to plot once, and it did not work out well at all.

[Kale]

I feel like I get ideas. I feel like I would be a plotter. I get some ideas. Like one time I stayed at an Airbnb in Dominican Republic, and I was like, how crazy if an intruder came in and I'm like, plotting it in my head. I never took it to paper. So I'm just a. An idea girly.

[Samantha Downing]

Yeah, definitely. I'm not a chess player. A chess player. You're thinking all those moves ahead.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Samantha Downing]

And I think one move ahead and then to the next move and then to the next move. So I'd be a terrible chess player.

[Kale]

So you write One chapter a day. But then what do you do if you have writer's block?

[Samantha Downing]

I, I don't ever really have writer's block. Once I get started on a story.

[Kale]

What'S it like to be God's favorite?

[Samantha Downing]

What? I have too many ideas. I'm not. They don't all work out. Sometimes I write two chapters and throw it out and think, this story, that's not my story. So that's the other thing about being a pantser. I throw out far more than gets published.

[Kale]

Well, so that's what I was going to ask next. Like, where do you draw the line for certain ideas that you come up with? What do you feel like is too much when. When you reread it, when you think about it overnight, like what. How do you decide what stays and what gets edited out?

[Samantha Downing]

When I get to the 20,000 word mark, my books are between 80 and 90,000 words. If I write 20,000 words, at that point, the. I have to know, do I have enough left for another 60 or 70,000 words? Are there enough options? Is the story going to get big enough to be a full book? And sometimes, sometimes it happens before I get to 20,000 words. I think this is not it. This is an idea is not a book. So a premise is not a book. So I have lots of premises in my head, but they don't all develop into what could be a full book. So I have dozens and dozens of 20,000 Word files that don't ever see.

[Kale]

The light of publishing.

[Samantha Downing]

Never get to a full book stage.

[Kale]

Could you ever go back to them and just add on to them so that they do okay, sure. Because I feel like that's. I mean, you could.

[Samantha Downing]

If I think of it, I might think of something that could, that could. Oh, that would work for that story. But at the time I was writing it, I didn't see anywhere interesting to go with it.

[Kale]

Okay, that makes sense. Would you ever collab with anyone to like finish one of them?

[Samantha Downing]

I guess I could. And not something I thought of.

[Kale]

But that would be cool. I've only seen a couple authors collab on books, but most authors that I talk to don't want to work with anyone else because they have a very specific writing style or writing process and so they don't really want to work with someone else. But that could be cool.

[Samantha Downing]

It would be interesting.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Samantha Downing]

Yeah.

[Kale]

I've never, I think Colleen Hoover worked with Taryn Fisher on a book. I forget what the go to Gone or I forget what it was called.

[Samantha Downing]

I remember seeing it with their Names on.

[Kale]

Yeah, both of them. And I thought that was really cool. Do you ever feel pressure at. At this point to maintain, like your full career in writing because of, you know, it takes a lot of time to write a book. Do you feel pressure?

[Samantha Downing]

Sure. Yes. Always. Pressure to sell books, to come up with something. People like to. Yeah, I. I guess, yeah. When you. You're. When your first book comes out, that you're fresh and new and. Yeah, everything's. You're the debut and then everything else after that is trying to keep up, trying to. There's getting in the business and then they're staying in the business.

[Kale]

And is that hard?

[Samantha Downing]

I think so, yes. Because you're constantly. There's constant new debut authors coming too. And so you're. The pool gets bigger.

[Kale]

So it's not just like the seasoned authors, it's the. All the new debut authors. And then in a way you're sort of competing. But obviously you make friends in this space and you want to see them do well. But I can imagine that could be hard. Do you think your character need therapy or jail time? Because all of your characters seem to need Both.

[Samantha Downing]

Both. Some probably need a correctional institute or the. Some probably need prison. Some probably need lots of help. Some probably need some pharmaceuticals. Probably lots of things, maybe.

[Kale]

What made you want to do, like, thriller? Suspense? Like, have you always loved true crime and watched, like, ID Channel like the rest of us?

[Samantha Downing]

Yeah, I grew up actually reading thrillers. My whole family read thrillers, so they were always around the house. Growing up, reading was big in my family. We went to the library a lot and it was seen as a real fun activity. So I grew up as a reader, but my family was always reading Michael Crichton and John Grisham and just all kinds of thrillers. And I definitely gravitated towards that. And then when Dexter came around and Gone Girl.

[Kale]

Yes.

[Samantha Downing]

And after I read Gone Girl and Girl on the Train and those thrillers, we call them domestic thrillers, thrillers that did not have a law enforcement person as the main character. It wasn't police chasing serial killer. It was something that was taking place inside of a home. I thought, I've never been in law enforcement. That's not my area. But I thought something like that I could write. And that's when I wrote My Lovely Wife.

[Kale]

Okay. That's that. I never even thought about the fact that a lot of thrillers that I read don't have police enforcement at all.

[Samantha Downing]

Right.

[Kale]

I mean, so that is a domestic.

[Samantha Downing]

Thriller, you're saying domestic thrillers that's how I define it, is something that takes place within a home or within a community, a neighborhood. And the lead characters, the main, the protagonists are not law enforcement.

[Kale]

So pretty much the thrillers that most of us read are like, would be domestic. Okay.

[Samantha Downing]

Not something that would not be Silence of the Lamp, which is very specifically FBI chasing serial killer.

[Kale]

Ah, okay.

[Samantha Downing]

So we're talking about a thriller that takes place between a husband and wife or in between family members, neighbors.

[Kale]

Okay.

[Samantha Downing]

Kind of thing.

[Kale]

You've also written about messy marriages. Is that something coming from, like, personal experience or something that you've seen or it's just an idea that you've had?

[Samantha Downing]

Some. I've never been married. And so this is all my observation on marriages, and I think that can be more helpful because you see it as an objective person and when you're in the marriage, you can't see it. But when I see marriages, whether it's in my own family or with my friends, I see the way they treat each other and the way they act. I can see the nuances, whereas they're feeling it because they're in it.

[Kale]

Right. But you see it from sort of a different lens because you're on the outside.

[Samantha Downing]

So I think that that gives me a different perspective as a writer to try to capture those moments, those nuances that can be in a marriage that I see.

[Kale]

No, that makes sense. And how do you name your characters? Because Too Old for this has a character named Plum. And as soon as I read that, I was like, oh, what an interesting name. Like, how do you name your characters?

[Samantha Downing]

I am super specific about the names that I pick because a lot of them, I want to be short.

[Kale]

Okay.

[Samantha Downing]

It's just easier on the reader. And I want them to be different because I want readers to be able to remember them and to be able to keep the characters separate. I rarely pick names that start with the same letter or that have the same sound. They're going to be used together a lot. So Plum and Lottie, one ends with the ie and one ends with the consonant. So they don't have that same sound.

[Kale]

Right.

[Samantha Downing]

So I'm really specific when it comes to names like that and just how the reader will hear it in their head and be able to keep them straight.

[Kale]

Well, I appreciate names that are also a little bit different too, because, I mean, I still remember. Remember characters from books I read last year because they were different. They weren't just everyday names. So it's helpful, in my opinion, to have a book stand out compared with others.

[Podcast Host]

When I started this podcast.

[Kale]

It seemed like I had to figure.

[Podcast Host]

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[Kale]

Do you ever freak yourself out when you're writing a book and you're like, oh, this is really dark. This twist is really dark?

[Samantha Downing]

Yeah, sometimes. Sometimes. Yeah, I think, oh, this is so. This is so wrong.

[Kale]

Yeah, well, I mean, too old for this starts off really wrong. I called my, one of my girlfriends and I was like, like girl, like.

[Samantha Downing]

I do. But then I just write it anyway. Yeah, I mean, what, what, what's the alternative? I don't want to edit. I want to go all in on the first draft and then leave it to my editor to say, oh, you got to pull that. Like that's way too much. I, I might as well just go all in on the first draft and if it's too much, then I can always take it out.

[Kale]

Right. How do you decide when you're going to like, like I was saying when we first started recording, too old for this. Know you, you dive head first when you start reading it. Are all of your books like that? Or how do you decide when to sort of insert the bomb being dropped? Right.

[Samantha Downing]

They don't all star like that no. But for Lottie it was important because she's coming out of retirement. So I needed that bomb to drop quickly and then sort of fill in her backstory. I don't want to start a book with a bunch of backstory. So I'm showing you who she is from the beginning and then you can learn the story of how she got there throughout the book. I sort of like to put backstory, pepper it in throughout the book.

[Kale]

Sure.

[Samantha Downing]

So for her, I like to start the book at the moment something changes.

[Kale]

Okay.

[Samantha Downing]

So I'm just going to drop you into a scene. Drop a reader into a scene. Mid scene. And thriller readers are smart. They've read a lot of thrillers and they can catch on. I don't need to over explain anything. She's an old woman. She's in her house. Somebody knocks on the door. You can follow that. That's not hard. And then you see what happens next.

[Kale]

For sure.

[Samantha Downing]

So not all stories start that dramatically as that one does. But it always starts with a change. A change has to start the story somehow. Someone loses a job, gets a job, whatever. Meets somebody is attack or something. Something starts the story.

[Kale]

Well, I mean, I could appreciate the early bomb being dropped though because there's been so many times I've read a thriller that nothing has happened until almost page 200 and I'm like, I like a slow burn, but that's too slow, you know. So I, I, I appreciate the switch up for me. What would you, what would your toxic trait be? As if you were a character in your book, in your own book.

[Samantha Downing]

That's a really question. My, probably my most toxic trait. I'm way too blunt.

[Kale]

Okay.

[Samantha Downing]

Way, way probably blunt to the point of I just don't see the, the sense in messing around. And I'm just gonna say what it is.

[Kale]

We're not gonna beat around the bush.

[Samantha Downing]

No. And I'm just gonna. If I don't like something or like somebody or what, I'm just gonna say I'm not gonna, I, I don't have the ability to say it in the nicest way.

[Kale]

Way. Would you say that that quality or that trait seeped into Lottie in too old for this.

[Samantha Downing]

Certainly in her head, in her inner monologue.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Samantha Downing]

But she has the ability to be pretty disciplined in how she presents herself to others. She's very aware of her appearance to others, especially as an older woman, and uses it to her advantage. But, but certainly in her head she's very blonde.

[Kale]

That's what I'm getting from it.

[Samantha Downing]

As well.

[Kale]

Do any of your characters in any of your books have qualities or characteristics from people in your real life?

[Samantha Downing]

Sometimes, yeah. I might take a small thing and add it as a, as a habit that they have or a way that they move or something that they do. There's no full character that's someone else. But sure, I, I take traits from real life.

[Kale]

Okay.

[Samantha Downing]

And things all the time. Personality traits and things.

[Kale]

Oh, that makes sense. Do you have a dream cast for any of your books?

[Samantha Downing]

A dreamcast? I don't really know who.

[Kale]

If you on the spot, who would you cast for Lottie?

[Samantha Downing]

Oh, gosh. I mean, Helen Mirren. Meryl Streep.

[Kale]

I was gonna say Meryl Streep.

[Samantha Downing]

There's so many who could do such an amazing job at it. Yeah, one of my favorite. All times. I don't think she's old enough, but I love Jodie Foster.

[Kale]

Oh, I could see that.

[Samantha Downing]

I think she's amazing. I think each of them would bring their own slant to it.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Samantha Downing]

But yeah, there's a lot. I love Margo Martindale, who is a character actress. She was in Justified. If you ever saw.

[Kale]

I'm not sure. I probably. Maybe if I saw her.

[Samantha Downing]

Yeah, she's. She was fantastic in that show. And she's, she's, she, she's, she's one of those real blunt type people.

[Kale]

Have you watched any book to movie or show adaptations that you really like?

[Samantha Downing]

I just saw the Better Sister, which I love. Oh.

[Kale]

I, I saw it being promoted on Socials, but I haven't seen it yet.

[Samantha Downing]

I love.

[Kale]

Is it good?

[Samantha Downing]

I loved it.

[Kale]

I watched Little Big Lies or Big Little Lies. I loved it.

[Samantha Downing]

Yeah.

[Kale]

But I didn't read the book. I actually watched it and didn't know it was based on a book. And then my son was reading. What's the one by Holly Jackson, Good Girl's Guide to Murder. I think is more of like ya. Yeah. I didn't read it. He read it. And then we watched it together, which I thought was cool, but would you sell the rights to Too Old for this if you. If they were optioned?

[Samantha Downing]

Sure. I mean, I don't have a problem.

[Kale]

Yeah, yeah. The.

[Samantha Downing]

Oh, I was gonna say also Sharp Objects.

[Kale]

Oh, yeah.

[Samantha Downing]

Fantastic. And Gone Girl, obviously a fantastic movie.

[Kale]

I forgot about that one. The, the. I loved the movie Gone Girl.

[Samantha Downing]

So good.

[Kale]

But the book is better. The book is. The books are always better.

[Samantha Downing]

You definitely get more inside the character's head than you can in a movie, which is great.

[Kale]

Well, so. And I say this all the time. When I have authors on. But Colleen Hoover was the first person to tell me why they have to change, make changes. And she basically was saying that, you know, you were describing your books to be up to what, 90, 000 words, but for a movie script, they have to essentially cut it in half to make it make sense for a one and a half or two hour movie. And so I think as an audience, we never realized that that's why they have to make the changes. Because certain things that you can put in a 350 page book, you can't fit it all in one movie. So it makes sense to me now and I look at adaptations in a different. From a different point of view now because obviously I know it doesn't fit and you can't.

[Samantha Downing]

It's really hard to show what's happening in somebody's head. I mean, in Dexter they had the voiceover so you could hear. You could hear him talking to himself and then you could also hear his father talking to him.

[Kale]

But we can't do all book to movie adaptations like that. So it's hard. What book of yours do you think would cause partners to break up if they read it together? Maybe my lovely wife.

[Samantha Downing]

Probably my lovely wife. Yeah, I think so. He started it. That's. That's kind of a. That's got some twisted marriages in it as well. But that's more of a sibling story.

[Kale]

Okay.

[Samantha Downing]

But a twisted love story is. That was the fourth book that was about a dramatic roller coaster relationship. Up and down. Breakup. Breakup together. Together. Breakup, break together. That dramatic. A couple that really got off on drama. So if people read it together and one person said this is a great relationship, one person said this is a horrible relationship, they might be in the wrong relationship.

[Kale]

What makes you want to write characters like that with. With twisted stories?

[Samantha Downing]

I think it's just interesting. I think to me, I guess that's just the people that act outside the norms of what we. Whether it's a serial killer or somebody who's just in this very twisted, toxic relationship by choice and they want to be in it. I think it's just interesting to explore that as a writer. It's a different art than finding the subtle aspects of a person interesting and making that interesting in a writing that's a whole art I do not have mastered of making somebody really normal. I hate to use the word normal, but a non serial killer, a non breaking the law person, but putting them as the main character and making that interesting and compelling seems far more difficult to me than making a Serial killer. Interesting.

[Kale]

Fair.

[Samantha Downing]

And that makes sense to me for some reason.

[Kale]

Yeah, no, that makes sense to me. Do your friends and family read your books?

[Samantha Downing]

Yeah, they do. Well, they say they do. I don't know.

[Podcast Host]

Do they.

[Kale]

Do they think that you're like absolutely unhinged? Yeah, he said so nonchalant. Yeah, they do.

[Samantha Downing]

They do.

[Kale]

Did you ever scare yourself, like, okay, am I taking this too far?

[Samantha Downing]

I was in back when I was still in at working at my job, I was in the break room one time and in one of my books, coffee pods becomes very important in the book and being able to do something bad to coffee pods like poison them. And I said that once in the break room. I said, do you know how easy it is to poison. Put poison in here. And I remember saying this to someone who is an executive at the company, just looked at me, said, there's something wrong with you.

[Kale]

You're like, I know, I know.

[Samantha Downing]

Okay, I'm just gonna not talk about this.

[Kale]

Let's talk about weight loss.

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[Kale]

Do you have a favorite thriller author?

[Samantha Downing]

Oh gosh, so many.

[Kale]

That's a really hard question.

[Samantha Downing]

Tough question. Obviously I always read Gillian and Flynn's books are all I've read all the ones that have come out. Mary Kubica is one of my favorites.

[Kale]

I actually met her in at down at Rehoboth in Delaware. And she was really sweet. She's also. She's a plotter, I think, though I.

[Samantha Downing]

Don'T know if she is or not. Yeah, I don't know.

[Kale]

That's what she said. She's a plotter. So she like plots it all out. But she's great.

[Samantha Downing]

She's great. Carolyn Kepney's. Who wrote the books for you?

[Kale]

Okay.

[Samantha Downing]

The big series on. That's.

[Kale]

Oh, that's based on a book.

[Samantha Downing]

Book, yeah, book series. Carolyn Kepney's.

[Kale]

I did not realize.

[Samantha Downing]

She's so nice and she's. Yeah, you got. Put that on your list.

[Kale]

Yeah, seriously. But that's so interesting because I, for some reason I thought like, okay, growing up we didn't really have a whole lot of book to movie adaptations, but now that you're saying that maybe some of them are not advertised as books to movies or movies to shows or whatever.

[Samantha Downing]

Right. It's. I think it's easier to miss that now in the streaming era. I think when it was when they used to, to like when the Gone Girl movie came out, it was a big movie in the theaters and nobody.

[Kale]

Knew it was like a lot of people didn't know it was a book unless you were already a reader. Right.

[Samantha Downing]

And now the streaming, it goes by so quickly, you know, you binge watch it and then you're on to the next and you never even realize it was a book.

[Kale]

Right. And I think too with the rise of book talk, it's helping people to social media in general, not just book talk, but just in general, like, oh, this movie is coming to the big screen sort of deal. So I think that helps. But yeah, I think there's so many. I'm like, where are all these adapt coming from? Out of nowhere. But really it's been going on the whole time and there was no awareness, I guess, unless you were already in the reading space to know. But like I got on, I started reading again because of book talk. So you know what I mean? So it's like influencing is really making a big difference, I feel like in the book community.

[Samantha Downing]

I think so. And then one coming up, it comes out this month is the Hunting Wives.

[Kale]

What is that one?

[Samantha Downing]

The. The book is the Hunting Wives by Makoff and the series was made and it's gonna be on airing on Netflix this month. And that's a thriller about some wives in. I believe it's East Texas or West Texas. Texas, I can't remember which part. But it's a. It's a great. They all go like, skeet shooting together and that they're the hunting wives in Texas. Oh. And it's a thriller.

[Kale]

I haven't heard of that. I just. The last. Last book that I read that turned into something for the big screen was Long Bright River. Oh, yeah, Yeah, I read that one, and I'm really excited for Remarkably Bright CRE Creatures. So I. I actually listened to that one on audio and I loved it. I thought it was so good.

[Samantha Downing]

I just read God of the Woods.

[Kale]

I just read that. I. Well, I read it a couple months ago, I guess, at this point.

[Samantha Downing]

So. Good. Same author that.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Kale]

I haven't met her, but her books are. They're pretty hefty. But Long Bright river, that's based in Kensington, and I'm from an area really close to Kensington, so I felt like a connection to it. I feel. But okay. So have you ever read a book where you. It's a thriller and the twist is so bad you want to throw it across the room, or do you dnf.

[Samantha Downing]

If I. There have been times when I'm so sure I know the twist, I will look at the end.

[Kale]

You will. Everybody looked at you like, oh, my gosh. And to see if you're right.

[Samantha Downing]

Yeah.

[Kale]

And are you wrong? Sometimes you're wrong, and then you're, like.

[Samantha Downing]

So bad that I didn't read the book. I. I mean, I've DNF'd books before, but the. Typically, even if I know the twist, if the writing is great, I keep. Even if I think I know the twist, I'll keep writing because just. It's just enjoyable to read.

[Kale]

Right.

[Samantha Downing]

So. So knowing the twist doesn't kill the book for me or thinking I know the twist because I'm. I've been wrong enough times that I know. I try not to do that.

[Kale]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I always think that once I have a book figured out, I'll know it, and then I'm always wrong. There's only been, like, two books I've ever, like, really figured out, but I still liked them because the books were good. But if someone tells me about a book and they give me the spoiler, I'll still read it. Like, it doesn't bother me.

[Samantha Downing]

What I try to do is have a number of reveals in the book and a number of twists. Not just one, but more than one. So you may not be surprised every time, but you will be surprised some of the time.

[Kale]

Okay.

[Samantha Downing]

So my theory is, I think that thriller writers and readers are always trying to figure each other out. It's like a little game we play. I'm trying to make right things that you're not going to guess. And you're trying to guess.

[Kale]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Samantha Downing]

That's how it goes. So if I say something like, he put the picture in the desk drawer that's so specific, you're gonna think to yourself, that means something, that he put that picture in the desk drawer. It's coming back. And I know you're gonna think that because you're a thriller reader. And so I'm gonna do the least obvious thing with that picture on the desk. I'm just gonna burn down the house. So.

[Kale]

So the picture doesn't matter.

[Samantha Downing]

So the fact that the picture has been burned, burnt, it becomes the important fact.

[Kale]

Okay.

[Samantha Downing]

Not the fact that it was in the desk drawer in the first place. So I feel like I am always trying to switch it up. Switch it up.

[Kale]

Yeah, we got to keep us. You got to keep us on our toes.

[Samantha Downing]

Yeah. I don't want to do anything obvious. I try not to.

[Kale]

What inspired you to move away from the family domestic thrillers to writing one around a teacher in for your own good? And then a dating story with a.

[Samantha Downing]

Twisted love story for your own good with the teacher story. I was trying to think that my first three books always had an element of children in it and the impact that adults have on children. My lovely wife, they had kids. He started. It was about siblings and how they grew up and for your own good. Next to parents, teachers are the adults that spend the most time with kids. So I wanted to look at, well, what happens if you have a really twisted teacher? How is that going to affect your kids? Because they're sitting there every day, five days a week with this teacher. So I thought that that was still sort of an offshoot of a domestic thriller is where you send your kids to school. But how much do you really know about those teachers? And not in the predatory way. That wasn't what he was about. He was simply a psychopath. And what happens when you have a psychopath as a teacher teaching your. What do those kids learn from him? Him.

[Kale]

Right. Especially in younger ages.

[Samantha Downing]

For sure. And then a twisted love story, that one. I really wanted to make the relationship itself a character.

[Kale]

Okay.

[Samantha Downing]

And so Wes and Ivy were individuals, but when they came together, they. They created something there. They created basically a tornado, and they whipped through life, and other people got drawn up into their tornado of drama, and they weren't even paying attention to the other people. They were paying attention to their own drama. So their relationship was a third character in the book.

[Kale]

That's kind of cool. I feel like that. That sets.

[Samantha Downing]

That was the goal anyway.

[Kale]

Yeah, no, that's actually sounds really good and different from a lot of stories that I read. So put that one on my TBR for the booktop. Girlies. What trope would you never write about?

[Samantha Downing]

I never write about. I don't know. Never say never. I. I have never put rape in any of my books.

[Kale]

Okay.

[Samantha Downing]

I don't know if that's a trope, but.

[Kale]

Well, it's dark romance. I. That sort of in that category.

[Samantha Downing]

I've never put the anywhere near the rape category or coercion of that. It doesn't mean I won't, but I don't. I've never come up with a way to do it that makes me want to do it.

[Kale]

Have you ever had any desire to write rom com?

[Samantha Downing]

No.

[Kale]

Aside. No. Just a dark girly.

[Samantha Downing]

Yeah, I think so. I mean I've. Look, I've thought about horror or something. Even a more slow burn type of a thriller. Not as thrillers that don't have a serial killer in them at all, but just people making choices. And some of them are bad, but there doesn't mean they're necessarily. Not every person who does something bad is a psychopath. That's a very specific diagnosis of having no empathy and what have you. So I have thought of other genres. Genres, but not the rom com.

[Kale]

Okay. So since you've put yourself in the mindset of serial killers and good versus evil, do you feel like a serial killer or people that kill other people are. It's a situation of nature versus nurture or do you think that people can be born evil?

[Samantha Downing]

I think both. Yeah, I think both. And sometimes it can be a combination of both. I think we seen that there are psychopaths that are just born that way and there are small children who show those tendencies and show this lack of empathy. And sometimes it happens after a traumatic brain injury and sometimes it can be a combination of born the way they're born as well as the way they're treated. Severe cases of abuse which, who knows, maybe those also have a brain injury involved in them.

[Kale]

Right.

[Samantha Downing]

So I don't think you can make someone not have empathy. But I'm not a doctor. Maybe you can. Maybe you can abuse them to the point. I know somebody like Charles Manson was severely abused by a child as a child and he was diagnosed as a psychopath, I believe.

[Kale]

I wonder about like people like Brian Coburger who seemingly had like a normal upbringing with his two sisters and his parents, they're still married to this day. They live in the suburbs of Pennsylvania. You know what I mean? Like, how does that happen? So.

[Samantha Downing]

And he could just be born a psychopath. True that. That's the Idaho. Yeah, the Idaho. Who knows? I read one book about it and it seemed to indicate he certainly had those tendencies, that he could have been a blossoming serial killer. Yeah, it's very hard to be a serial killer now with DNA inside technology.

[Kale]

And that was in too old for this. Like you really have to think about because people have ring doorbells now and CCTV and phone pinging off of towers and all of it.

[Samantha Downing]

And the DNA and the fingerprints and the. I mean we have so much science now.

[Kale]

Yeah. I don't even know how you could get away with it at this point.

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[Kale]

How do you put yourself in the mental space for characters like Lottie?

[Samantha Downing]

I think that what I have to do is that they, they have a belief system. They, they have a belief system about what they're doing and why they're doing it. And they do not veer from that. They do not question. They believe what they are doing is right for their reasons. Whether anybody else agrees with them or not doesn't matter, and they just don't question it. So I come at it from that standpoint. Lottie is doing what she has to do, period. There's no question in her mind. She's doing what she has to do to protect herself, to protect her family, to protect her life, in this case, of her being brought out of retirement. So there's no questioning of her behavior. So once you're reading from that standpoint, as a reader, you're in their head.

[Kale]

Right.

[Samantha Downing]

You may totally disagree with it and think that they're crazy, but as long as the. It's interesting, you keep reading.

[Kale]

Yeah. And obviously Lottie is an elderly woman, and we don't see, you know, a serial killer that is an elderly woman or a woman in general. So what inspired you to have a female elderly serial killer?

[Samantha Downing]

Well, it's actually interesting. I had some health problems, and for the first time, I had my. I was. Led a very healthy life and suddenly had some health problems and was unable to do things that I had spent a lifetime doing. I was a very active person and suddenly could not be active and had to adapt and change. And it really changes your brain when suddenly, when you do something every single day and suddenly you can't. And you think, I'm never going to be able to do this again, ever. Like, that avenue was closed to me. And I sort of channeled that into Lottie as she's getting older and there are things she can't do anymore, and she adapts and she finds new ways. And I really tried to show that about her, that she. It wasn't that she couldn't be a serial killer anymore, but she couldn't do it the way that she used to. She had to do other things and adapt to the new technology and change her methods and start compensating for potential memory losses. And even though she doesn't have Alzheimer's or dementia, she just has a basic. Not as good memory as it was when she was younger. So I think that that's what made me write it. Before I was writing Lottie, I was writing about a younger character, and I wasn't connecting to her at all.

[Kale]

Okay.

[Samantha Downing]

And I. I was having trouble writing the story, and I thought, okay, you know what? I'm just gonna switch this character and make her a lot older. And then it just flowed. So I guess that's Just where my mind was.

[Kale]

It just felt better.

[Samantha Downing]

Yeah.

[Kale]

I think it's cool though because I haven't read anything like it. So it sets you apart from other thrillers which I think is great.

[Samantha Downing]

Yeah.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Samantha Downing]

It was a lot of fun to write. She's a lot of fun and too.

[Kale]

Old for this was set in or Oregon.

[Samantha Downing]

It was. Right. She originally lived in Washington and now she lived in Oregon.

[Kale]

Do you have ties to Washington or Oregon or did you just wanted to write?

[Samantha Downing]

I've been there, but not specifically. No.

[Kale]

That's kind of cool.

[Samantha Downing]

I live on the west coast.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Samantha Downing]

Yeah. And then Archie, her son lives in.

[Kale]

California and he's an attorney or a lawyer. What inspired his character? Just. Just because.

[Samantha Downing]

Well, I wanted her to have. She had a full life. I mean she has a child. She has now as grandchildren and daughter in law and the whole. She has friends and she has a whole social life.

[Kale]

Bingo. On Thursdays.

[Samantha Downing]

She's not some. She's not the Unabomber. She's not just sitting in a cabin. She has a whole life going on that she's trying to protect. So. And the fact that she was a single mother becomes a very important part of the book. And Archie is very important to her.

[Kale]

It's giving btk like when the BTK killer has a whole family that he's protecting and his daughter. Did you. She did an interview years and years and years ago and she said something along the lines of like he was.

[Podcast Host]

A good dad to her.

[Kale]

Sort of like living that double life.

[Samantha Downing]

Yeah, exactly.

[Kale]

So interesting. So yeah, Lottie has like a maternal instinct when it comes to her son. And that's a really interesting characteristic to give to the villain of the story. What inspired that?

[Samantha Downing]

I think that there's. I think for serial killers have a way of. At least the ones that have families and full lives, they have a way of compartmentalizing and making exceptions for some people, the people that are important to them. And we all do this. We all treat our. You know, do things for our family we might wouldn't maybe wouldn't do for a stranger. They're just at the extreme end of it. They're able to kill someone but would never think of doing that to their family. They don't want to just kill anyone.

[Kale]

Right.

[Samantha Downing]

It's. There are people that are exceptions to their other behavior.

[Kale]

Makes sense. What was your favorite part about writing? Too old for this.

[Samantha Downing]

I think probably coming up with the way she kills.

[Kale]

Yeah, I was floored, which was fun.

[Samantha Downing]

So I won't.

[Kale]

I was floored.

[Samantha Downing]

I Wasn't. I didn't want to do anything. Typical.

[Kale]

Yeah, it's.

[Samantha Downing]

I think that the commentary, if there's any commentary, I. I guess in the book is the same commentary I had from my lovely wife. You don't. You don't really know the person next to you, the person living next to you, and you don't know what they're up to. So I think an older woman can be like that or an elderly woman can be like that. The same as your perfect next door neighbors that are in your fun little. In your little upscale, gated community. They might be serial killers for sure, which is terrifying. Don't underestimate anybody.

[Kale]

Even old women you can't underestimate. Read anyone. Do you have plans for any other books moving forward?

[Samantha Downing]

I'm always writing. Yeah, I'm always writing, but I don't have anything specific right now.

[Kale]

Okay.

[Samantha Downing]

I'm still getting in. I'm still in that phase, that opening phase.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Samantha Downing]

So we'll see. But definitely more books.

[Kale]

Yeah, absolutely. A lot of maternal themes. I guess we'll call it in. Too old for this. Lottie's a mom, and then Plum's mom enters the scene as a big. A bigger character. What was the inspiration behind that? Was there any. Was it just a coincidence?

[Samantha Downing]

I think that throughout the book, the characters that come up really raise the stakes for Lottie. And coming up against someone's mother, the mama bear is a much bigger threat to her than a different character would be. So I specifically brought her in because that was her child and she's trying to find her.

[Kale]

Yeah.

[Samantha Downing]

And that's. She. You know, someone like that, you know, a mother is going to be more tenacious than some of the other characters, so. And more dangerous because that's their child.

[Kale]

I. I feel like that in real life too, like social media or if something happens to someone's kid, like, ask a mom. A mom's gonna figure it out. Moms make the best, best Internet sleuths. Online investigators, private investigators. We will figure it out.

[Samantha Downing]

Yeah, exactly.

[Kale]

I love that about the story. So there's two older characters in your book. The detective and then obviously Lottie. Do you feel like you intentionally included themes of how people, elderly people, are treated in the book, or was it just a coincidence?

[Samantha Downing]

Yeah, I think so. And I think that I. What I wanted to capture in part was that they. They are thinking in some ways, thinking differently. When you get to that age where you're sort of. You're beyond the average lifespan of a person. And in the country and Even if you're healthy, that weighs on you and you start thinking about what you leave behind and what you've accomplished. And I think that that that becomes important for both of them. Yeah, I don't want to give away too much, of course.

[Kale]

Okay, first of all, you can get too old for this. Wherever you get books, Barnes Noble, Amazon. It's out all August 12, 2025. And where can people find you on social media?

[Samantha Downing]

My website is Samantha Downing.com and I have links there to all my social media. I'm mostly on Instagram. I still post on Facebook, but that that's mainly website and those too.

[Kale]

Thank you for coming on Barely Famous Podcast.

[Samantha Downing]

Thank you for having me. Truly. It was an honor to be here.

[Kale]

Sa Foreign.

[Trevor]

I'm Justin Sylvester. And I'm Blakely Thornton. Join us for yesterdays, the podcast where we break down the most pivotal pop culture moments in history and give them the queer love that they deserve. The things that got us riled up during dial up, those makeouts that should have been breakouts and the drops that were cemented in pop. I'm talking Bennifer, Tyra versus Naomi, Tom Cruise jumping on that couch and so much more. So please rate us, subscribe to us on Apple podcasts, Spotify or anywhere you get audio related content. We also take Venmo and cash app or credit card number as well. We're malleable, you know we're gay today. This summer, Pluto TV is exploding with thousands of free movies. Summer of cinema is here. Feel the explosive action all summer long with movies like Gladiator, Mission Impossible, Beverly Hills Cop, Good Burger and Transformers. Dark of the Moon. Bring the action with you and stream for free from all your favorite devices. Pluto TV Stream now pay never.