Prison Tattoos with Larry Normile

Summary

Podcast Summary: Barely Famous – "Prison Tattoos" with Larry Normile

Host: Kail Lowry
Guest: Larry Normile (Owner of Artistic Editions Tattoo Studio, Prison Program Educator)
Date: January 9, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the convergence of art, personal transformation, and rehabilitation within the prison system. Kail sits down with Larry Normile, owner of Artistic Editions in Dover, Delaware, to discuss his unconventional journey from foster care and the prison system to tattoo artistry and entrepreneurship—and, more recently, his work teaching tattooing as a path to rehabilitation for incarcerated individuals. The conversation touches on the evolution of tattoo culture, breaking social stigma, second chances, and building both artistic and life skills behind bars.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Origin Story: From Self-Taught Artist to Shop Owner

• Larry’s Early Exposure: Fascinated with tattooing as a teen, Larry began in his friend’s neighborhood, learning through experience—not formal training.
• Lack of Guidance: In the late '80s/early '90s, resources for aspiring tattoo artists were extremely limited.
• Artistic Evolution: “For, like, 10 years of my life, I was just tearing everybody up.” (Larry, 01:55)
• Growth Through Mistakes: Larry reflects now with gratitude for early supporters, even those who returned for cover-ups: “Thank you for giving me the opportunity. If it wasn’t for you, I wouldn’t be where I’m at.” (02:57)

Shifting Perceptions of Tattoos

• Changing Stigmas: The mainstream now accepts visible tattoos, unlike a decade or two ago when they drew judgment. “I love my tattoos no matter how ugly they are… But I would cover them up for the sole fact that I wanted people to judge me based on who they saw without the tattoos.” (Kail, 04:32)
• Influence of Media: Tattoo shows and social media have highlighted artists’ stories, broadening cultural acceptance.
• Professional Spaces: Even politicians, lawyers, and doctors now comfortably display tattoos.

The Prison Tattoo Program: How It Started

• Chance Encounters: The idea began after Delaware prison commissioner Tara Taylor visited Larry’s shop, noticed the code of professionalism, and discussed the possible impact of bringing these skills to incarcerated individuals.
• Inspired by Other States: When Missouri began a similar prison tattoo program, Larry used it as leverage to convince local authorities.

Why Larry?

• Community Involvement: Beyond tattooing, Larry worked in Group Violence Intervention (GVI), helping to reform at-risk individuals—a fact known to prison leadership.
• Boots-on-the-Ground Experience: He’s been involved in direct intervention, such as defusing potentially violent situations.

How the Prison Apprenticeship Works

• Eligibility: Selection is based on behavior, programming, and recommendations. Lifers can participate; however, participants must have GEDs and no recent major rule violations.
  • “You can’t have a write up for a year… all the prison from the warden down… aren’t going to let me take you in if they don’t believe you’re a right fit.” (Larry, 16:24)
• Phases of Training:
  • Classroom: First 12 weeks—history, health regulations, art fundamentals, bloodborne pathogens (required for licensing).
    • “We start with the history of tattooing in Delaware… teach them all the rules and regulations, bloodborne pathogen… then art.” (Larry, 17:25)
  • Fake Skin Practice: Second 12 weeks—intense practice using synthetic skin to build technique.
  • On-Skin Work: One year of supervised tattooing on other inmates. “They all have a job between electrician, plumber… They run that prison.” (Larry, 19:10)
• Structure: 3 days/week initially, then 5 days/week during in-depth phases.
• Licensed Studio: The prison studio meets the same health and regulatory standards as shops on the outside.

Real-World Skills & Reentry

• Skills Beyond Tattooing: Teaches business management and interpersonal skills, but Larry recommends years in a shop before aspiring to ownership.
  • “As the owner you gotta go through as the tattoo artist… I just come in, tattoo, go home…” (Larry, 42:25)
• Exit Planning: Larry plays an active role in planning reentry—helping secure jobs, housing, transportation, and basics for those being released.
  • "I build an exit plan while we're in jail still... I find landlords... I already have him a job..." (Larry, 57:44)

On Finding the Right People—Inside and Out

• Selection for the Program: It's about mindset and willingness to change, not just artistic skill.
  • “If they’re not ready, I’m going to kick you out of the program… you need more programming.” (Larry, 22:54)
• Second Chances: Larry applies lessons from his own second chance: “Somebody took the chance on you… so you kind of take that same mindset and use that for this whole program.” (Kail, 36:40)
• Potential & Pitfalls: While some will thrive, others may fall short due to attitude or dishonesty.

Personal Journey: Foster Care, Incarceration, and Redemption

• Larry's Background: After his stepdad died, Larry’s life spiraled—foster care, juvenile detention, and prison followed.
  • “It was almost like a foster to prison pipeline.” (Kail, 28:57)
• Key Influence: Mentorship from fellow inmates pushed Larry toward legitimate work and the pursuit of tattooing after release.
  • “No, you’re not going back to jail… if you come back, I’ma tear your ass up.” (Rich’s advice to Larry, 34:41)
• Cycle Broken: Larry credits mentors for giving him—and now, in turn, others—a chance.

Funding and Capacity

• Program Funding: Initially from the prison arts budget; current and future funding through Larry's nonprofit, Next Generation Outcome, and donations.
• How to Help: Donations (even small) are vital; also in need of in-kind support (clothes, furniture), and more landlord/realtor partners for reentry housing.
• Scaling: Six to ten participants per year. Larry provides active support for those transitioning out.

Notable Achievements and Future Plans

• Tangible Impact: Marked reduction in prison medical costs for tattoo-related incidents—from $2.5 million to under $80,000 annually—due to safe, supervised practice.
• Cultural Success: The shop’s atmosphere mimics outside tattoo parlors to better prepare inmates; fellow inmates and staff are now getting tattoos by inmates.
  • “If they were not in white clothes… you’d never know you were in a prison. You’d be like, yo, this is a pretty dope tattoo studio.” (Larry, 48:29)
• Barber/Cosmetology Expansion: The prison plans to add barbering and salon training in future.
• Media: A TV show is in the works, in partnership with Wheelhouse, to share these stories more broadly.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Growth and Accountability:
  • "Thank you for giving me the opportunity… If it wasn’t for you, I wouldn’t be where I’m at." — Larry (02:57)
• On Prison Program’s Purpose:
  • "Second chances are real… Just know that one word could change that." — Larry (77:22)
• On Work Ethic:
  • "There’s no tattoo artists around here working 9:00am to 10:00pm at night. So you’re bridging a gap." — Larry (64:34)
• On Breaking Stigma:
  • "Don’t ever give up on somebody… Never judge that book until you read it." — Larry (77:22, 77:48)
• On the Business of Tattoos:
  • "I want them [a shop manager] just to run a business. I don’t need them to be your best friend." — Larry (39:55)
• On Measuring Success:
  • "The shop is as close to a real tattoo studio as possible. That was the only way I was going to do it." — Larry (48:19)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:05 — Larry’s introduction to tattooing
• 04:32 — Changing attitudes toward visible tattoos
• 06:46 — How the prison tattoo program started
• 13:43 — Who can join the program?
• 17:25 — Overview of the training curriculum
• 22:38 — Selection criteria: It’s about mindset
• 29:02 – 34:39 — Larry’s journey from foster care to prison and eventual reform
• 42:25 — Business education for apprentices
• 48:19 — Creating a “real” shop environment in prison
• 57:44 — Reentry planning: jobs, housing, and support
• 73:12 — The role of tattoo studio licensing and health regulations in Delaware prisons
• 77:22 — Key lesson: never give up on anyone

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Where to Find & Support

• Larry Normile: @LarryNormile on social media
• Artistic Editions Tattoo Studio: Search on all platforms
• Next Generation Outcome (nonprofit): Find on Facebook; contact Larry for donation links or to offer support (clothing, rental assistance, jobs, etc.)

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Takeaway Message

Second chances, support, and the right opportunities can transform lives—even for those written off by society. By teaching real skills, offering humane support, and breaking social stigma, programs like Larry’s don’t just produce tattoo artists—they facilitate lasting change.
As Larry says:
"Never judge that book until you read it." (77:53)

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(End of summary)

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the show. Things are going to get weird. It's your fave villain K, and you're listening to Barely Famous. Welcome back to another episode of Barely Famous Podcast. I'm sitting with Larry, who owns Artistic Editions in Dover, Delaware. Welcome to the podcast.

[B]

Well, thank you.

[A]

Yeah. So I want to talk about all of the things that you're doing in prison, but we get there. You own a tattoo shop, Artistic Editions. When did you open it? Why did you open it? And how did you get started in tattooing?

[B]

That's crazy. All of it. So to start with how I got into tattoo, and actually a guy named Mark that I was friends with growing up. When I first moved to Delaware, he's, like, first friend I ever met. His uncle was tattooing, and it was like, we'd go over his house, and I was amazed. Like, I just love the fact that he's over here tattooing. And I wanted to do it. I always drew. Like, that's how I would get extra lunch money. I would do, like, cars, postcards, and stuff and birthday cards and people giving candy or money for it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As a kid. So I was always fascinated with it. And then Mark, Big Mark would tattoo, and I was like, man, I want to do it. And then one day, he just gave me a machine. I'm 14 years old. Right. Mind you, and I'm out here just tattooing myself, tattooing people. I tattooed my hand at 14 years old. Yeah. That was a whole thing. So.

[A]

But did you try doing it on pig skin first?

[B]

No.

[A]

Is that real?

[B]

You got to figure out older. I'm 46. So, like, then we didn't have. We didn't have Google. We didn't have anything yet. So there was no pigskin, and nobody was showing you anything. And the industry was real tight at that point. In Delaware, I think we only had, like, four tattoo studios. So it's not like, it was huge.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You had Peggy Hurley, Little Gary, and a couple other shops. Not too many. So there was nobody really showing you things.

[A]

Right. You kind of had to figure it out on your own.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

But just because you can draw doesn't necessarily mean you can tattoo at all.

[B]

Because there's so much you have to learn, like the saturation of the skin, the needle that you're using. What's the difference between a bug pen and a standard? There's just. There's so many fundamental sides of that that you have to understand before you can tattoo. So that's what makes it harder when you look at something you're Saying, oh, those lines are consistent. That's probably because he didn't understand needle depth or even what needle he was using or she was using to make that line. So, yeah, it's way. So put it this way. For, like, 10 years of my life, I was just tearing everybody up. I was tearing everybody up.

[A]

Has anyone ever come back to you from those years when you first started and asked you to cover it up?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Really? But I feel like it takes some level of self awareness and confidence to be like, yeah, I fucked that up. But here you go. I'm gonna make it better.

[B]

So for quite a few years, I was used to just be embarrassed, like, somebody come in. I'm like, damn, what did that. Right.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

Yeah. So now I'm like, yeah, now I'm more like, I appreciative. Like, thank you for giving me the opportunity, because if it wasn't for you, I wouldn't be where I'm at. Right, right. If you didn't give me a chance to tear you up like that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I wouldn't be where I'm at. So I appreciate you trusting me in that time.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And at that time, you might have thought that looked good.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Right. Because when I was in it, when I first got industry, the people I looked up to, now I'm like, damn, they're not that good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I didn't have, like, the Internet. And, like, now I go on Instagram and look at, like, an artist over in Germany, and I'm like, holy shit, this guy's killing it.

[A]

No doubt. We were just saying before we started, Rol just wanted to be tattooed so bad when I started getting tattoos that I didn't care what they looked like or who did it. And now I'm like, that wasn't really the way to go. But, I mean, it is what it is, right? You got to start somewhere.

[B]

I. When you said before we got out here, you were talking about laser. I felt that because that's what I want to do on all my arms.

[A]

Would you retattoo after laser, or would you be lasering and then be done?

[B]

Oh, I'd be a collector. I'd go all over the world, and I'd find all my favorite artists.

[A]

I think I would.

[B]

And I would get one by one. Like, I would try to make it match, though, right. So, like, I might give one top or half of my arm to one artist, but another artist that has a similar style.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I would have him finish the bottom just because I'd want to learn from Them like, it's not me as, like, just being. It's me as being a tattoo artist. Why? Like, if I was not a tattoo artist, probably not. I'd probably clean them all the way up and be done. Because where I'm at now, a more professional style that people have handshaking and meeting now that I deal with.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's like some people still look at you like, oh, you got tattoos on your hand or you got tattoos on your neck. But when they find out I'm a tattoo artist and I'm doing what I'm doing, they kind of be. They're. They're more accepted to talk to. I wanted to be able to walk in a room and not have to feel that judgment that you would get from it. Right. For some people.

[A]

That's so interesting that you say that, because I. It took me seven years to get a bachelor's degree. And when I went to Del State, when I moved to Delaware, I enrolled in Del State. And I used to, even in the summer classes that I took, would wear blazers and cardigans because I didn't want the judgment. I love my tattoos no matter how ugly they are, no matter if the artist was on drugs, I don't care. I love them. I don't have regrets. But I would cover them up for the sole fact that I wanted people to judge me based on who they saw without the tattoos. And then I would reveal the tattoos because your impression is already sort of formed. But how do you think that the. The industry of tattooing and the shows that they've had and just, I guess, policies changing surrounding tattoos. How have you seen that change over the years, being a tattoo artist yourself?

[B]

Oh, I've seen a lot of progression.

[A]

Because I want my tattoo. I want my neck blasted. Like, I want my neck completely done. And I'm like, 10 years ago, if have wanted that, it would have been a huge problem. But I feel like today it's more accepted.

[B]

Yeah. Now you be like a badass. Like, yo, look, I see a badass, right? So it's not like I don't look at it that anyway. And I. I feel like because of Internet and people actually getting on it, and you're hearing stories now that it's more than just a tattoo. It's like there's a story usually behind that, or like, sometimes it could just be, I'm going through a breakup. And like, this right here brought me back to reality of I'm. That. I'm that mother ever. You know what I mean?

[A]

So you can Cuss on here.

[B]

Yeah. So it's like you have to have that understanding of why they got the tattoo instead of just looking at it. Right. So I don't think the judgment is as bad as it is. I think some. Like, we still have some older people that probably still are in that realm, and then you got religious people that still believe that it's not. But for the most of it, I feel like eventually we're going to have a president that's tattooed.

[A]

Well, I feel like, especially with Tik Tok, too, I see lawyers and doctors covered in tattoos now, which is, to me, I don't think anything different of them. And I think my kids having tattooed parents also don't feel any different. But it's so interesting to see, like, old. The older generation still sort of, like, you know, look down on you, I guess. I don't know. I think it's so interesting.

[B]

If you look at, like, some of the people that run Delaware I've tattooed, like, it's different.

[A]

How does that feel?

[B]

It's different. It's different. You know, that's how I got into prison.

[A]

Like, okay, so let's talk about that. You are teaching tattoo. You're teaching tattooing to inmates in one of Delaware's largest prisons, and one. Where did that idea come from?

[B]

So Tara Taylor, which is the commissioner of the prison, was coming into my tattoo studio, and she was getting tattooed by my apprentice.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Which he had already graduated. He became a tattoo artist already. So he was already a tattoo artist. She would come in and she was getting tattooed, and I would sit and talk with her for hours while she's getting tattooed. And she liked the professionalism. She liked how Adam was treating the clientele. Like she liked everything about it, and she just liked me. She kept saying, you know, I could use you. I could use you in there. And I was like, well, we could do it. Right? And she was real hesitant on it for a while. And then Missouri posted a post and said, we're doing a tattoo studio in a prison. And I literally text her and said. I screenshotted it. I texted to her and said, see? This could have been us.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the next day, Bobby May, which now is the bureau chief, but he was the warden of James T. Vaughn, calls me the next day and says, larry, I want to do the tattoo studio. So a week goes by, I get another phone call, and they're like, let's set it up. So then he. He literally, at that time, was getting transferred over to become the bureau chief. So we got A new warden, which is Brian Emick. And they gave me Dotson, Major Dotson, as my oversight to be running the program. So he came down to my shop, we talked. I built a budget, built everything to show what we would need, and that's where we started. And we started on April 1st of 2024.

[A]

So out of all of the tattoo artists and shops in Delaware, but specifically Dover, I guess, like, was it just the relationship that you had with the client that was tattooing with your apprentice, or do you feel like, why you so terror?

[B]

So I work with a group called GVI, which is group violence intervention. Right, okay. And what that is, it says a governor's initiative. And they take people of that have been shot, gay relations and all that stuff. And we try to reform them, help them, build them back into society and make them feel better about themselves and understand that, you know, a lot of what they're doing is just taught behavior, not real, like, let's change their mindset. Right. And they got a lot of these guys to change their life. So in the middle of all this, there's in calls, we're meeting with guys that are literally have, like AP reports written on them. And instead of charging them, we're giving you a second chance. Right. So I was working with this group and we're doing all this. And terror would be in some of these in calls. A lot of the, like, people would be there, like the D. A for the federal government, FBI, all these people. So that's. I was around all that all the time, and they were seeing me all the time, and I was boots on the ground. Like, I went to a house. I'm not gonna say a name, but we went to a house to stop a shooting. And it was just me and John Cook, the director of GBI, and literally stopped 12 guys, young men from 16 to 24, to go shoot up another house. And they were messed up and ready to go out the door. So insane. So I think with all of what I was doing behind the scenes and not talking about it, not telling anybody, but it was just trying to help. They saw that and then Tara knew about it. And then obviously, you know, they're going to do their. Their due diligence on me and check on me. So between John Cook, Corey Priest, and all these other people that have. Have always supported me, she knew that I was the right one. And I think that's how it kind of built our relationship type.

[A]

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[B]

But yes.

[A]

Oh, they can.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So even though they'll never get out and be able to tattoo.

[B]

That's why. So first off, there, there are two other T shops that are doing it, but they're not doing it. What we're doing, none of our guys are not do. We're not doing this for free. No way can you have re entry and not get paid to get out. Like how do we get out of reentry? Well, we'll get to that. But okay, I was about to say.

[A]

I don't know what re entry is.

[B]

So re entry is like when you get out of jail, like what do you do? Like how do you get out?

[A]

Right. Well, because you were saying to, to basically essentially like give them a second chance to not go back to prison. I think so often inmates are coming out of prison and not having a direction. They one, don't have homes or families. Two, they are felons. So how are they going to get a job if the jobs are not hiring? So what options do they really have? Even if they want to change, they're kind of forced back into the prison system.

[B]

I'LL go back to the question you said was the lifer. So.

[A]

Right, okay.

[B]

So how it worked was the first class, I didn't do lifers.

[A]

Right, okay.

[B]

We just did. I didn't even pick those guys. The, the prison picked them. So I said, well, when I got in there, I said, I want to meet every tattoo artist in this prison. Everybody that's been written up, the ones that are in the maximum security, I want to meet with all of them and talk to them all. And I sat every one of them down in the prison. I said, listen, one by one, I'll give you a chance. It might be years from now because I, you know, you still back in max. You might be two years before you get out of that mug. I don't know. Depends on your behavior, right? But if you get out and you show progression, I'll work with you. So you can't tattoo though. You're not allowed to tattoo. You can't do any of that. You got to just be good. You can't do any of that stuff. And you got to show better behaviors and whatever programs the prison wants you to have before you get in, like GEDs. You got to have a lot of programming before you even get to me, okay?

[A]

So there's a whole curriculum or structure that they sort of have to go.

[B]

Through before they can't have you. You can't have a write up for a year. You can't have a Class 1 write up, which is like the highest level of class write ups. Okay, you can have a class run write up for over a year, can't have a Class 2. Right. Up for over six months. Which Class 2 could mean anything. Like you could be off limits. And off limits can be really simple. Like literally, I could be going to your room and just have my foot in your doorway, which you're not supposed.

[A]

To do as an inmate. You can't go into another inmate.

[B]

And really they could just tell you, get out of the door. But if an officer is having a bad day or you're really just irritating that officer, they're gonna be like, okay, you don't want to listen here, Bam. Right? So it could be little things leading up to. But really the criteria is you got to have a ged, can't have a write up for a year. And all of the prison from the warded down, all the top fives with counselors, they're not going to let me take you in if they don't believe you're going to be a right fit for the program.

[A]

So essentially like a sort of like a recommendation. Okay.

[B]

So I pick them and then I give them to them and then they do a classification on them and they say they're good. And if they're not, then we'll do a reclassification if we have to.

[A]

Okay, so what does it look like for their apprenticeship then with you? How. What does that look like on a weekly basis? Is it one class a week? Is it once a month? How does that work?

[B]

It's three days a week. So.

[A]

Wow. They wait. So when, while they're in prison, they get to leave their. I don't know, I've never been inside a prison.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So they get to leave their cells and they get to go to this class. Yeah, for three, three days a week. That's. That's kind of nice. And then how long is the class and what are they learning?

[B]

So the first part of the program is first 12 weeks is like a 101, right? That's a three days a week, nine to two. And what we're doing there is you're teaching them the industry from. I give them all the way to the basis of like 1975, Delaware started the first tattoo shop in the state of Delaware, which is fun fact was here in Dover.

[A]

Oh, cool.

[B]

Little Gary's tattoos. Right. So we start with the history of tattooing in Delaware and then I go on to teaching them all of the 4, 4451 rules and regulations for the Delaware's board of health for body art establishments. Go through all of that. And then we do the bloodborne pathogen, which is you have to have as a recommendation. But it's also an eight hour course. Right. And then we teach them the difference in needles, we teach them art, we teach them the difference between pencil and micron and teach them line weight. And then we go to paintings. And paintings is for like color to teach you how to tattoo it and from, from black and gray to color and how you could transition and get the same effect from painting. So we do all that in the 12 weeks. That's the first 12 weeks. The second 12 weeks is fake skin. That one. They go, they go five days a week. So they go nine to sometimes six, eight o' clock at night, depending on if we have an overtime shift officer or whatever. Right. And then that, because it's my goal is, and what I'm working on is it's 1600 hours, just like cosmetology with documented hours test every week. And at the end of the week, if you don't pass tests, you Got to retake the test until you pass. It has 240 hours there. That is 400 hours on fake skin for the second 12 course. 12 week course. And then they have a year long on skin. On skin is five days a week, guaranteed.

[A]

Who are they tattooing?

[B]

Inmates.

[A]

Each other?

[B]

Yes. It's a work in prison. So in Smyrna, you might as well consider it a town, right? Every on the minimum or minimum and medium side of that prison, almost all of those inmates are working. They all have a job between electrician, plumbers, they, they run that prison.

[A]

Someone suggested for my podcast, merch. They were like, oh, the prison can do it. And I was like, what? What are you talking about? And they were like, no, they can do merch for prison or from the prison. And I had no idea what they were. And I was like, I don't know if I should be doing that, but like, if it benefits the inmates, I would consider it. But if it's like me just trying to get something cheaper, I'm not. That doesn't feel ethical to me. But I was like, okay, if it's going to give them a job, like, I would consider it.

[B]

Okay. For one, it ain't cheaper.

[A]

It's not cheaper, okay, because it's outsourced.

[B]

It's a company called dci, so. No, but what it is, is it gives the inmates something cool, they feel cool and they get to talk about it, right? Because that prison is a working prison. When I say they do everything they have, when they have a whole, it's called Building 15. And in that building they do woodwork, they do refurnishing.

[A]

For what?

[B]

Everything. Like for companies, for anybody. Like, if you wanted this couch to be redone, right, all refabric rewrapped, all that, they could do all that in there.

[A]

So is this is the whole idea behind that, what you're describing, so that if and when they are released that they have something that they like, a skill?

[B]

Yeah, but.

[A]

Yes, but a lot of them are life sentences.

[B]

No, no, not all of them. Now, so you. And here's the deal is commutations are real. Like commutation is where you could get out, right? If you showed a long period of time that you've been doing good and you haven't get written up and your classifications are just good and you get down to like a 10 level, which is low, low, like minimum security, you're not looking as a threat. Because what people don't realize is those guys, they're not acting amount, they're don't get me wrong, that prison, there's some people that still belong there. Let's just be clear, right? There are people and there's. There's a maximum security for a lot of that. The minimum and medium are filled with more people that could be out on the streets right now. But they have life sentences. Because back in the day, sentencing was harder, harsher than it is today.

[A]

Right, Like.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Weed charges.

[B]

Yes. Like drug. There was a guy that was in there for 37 years off a weed or 30 some years off a weed charge that was he released.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In my. So the. The mayor came in. So the governor came into the tattoo studio and he actually did it live on the news. It's in the news. That's where he did that. He gave him his pardon in my two studio. Yeah, it was pretty cool to watch. Yeah, dude cried everything. It was amazing to watch. So. But in that prison and they do like woodwork, judges, like the judges tables, all the stuff you see at the courthouses is built in that prison. Like, they have lays, machines, mill machines. They have everything. The security level to get in that building is crazy, though. Like, you're not. They stay radar, they metal detector you, they strip them naked. They make everything to make sure you're not coming out of there with anything.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

But those guys have so much talent. But it's not talked about. No, that's why I want to be out here trying to talk about it. Because when these guys get out and they say, oh, I could do that, that you don't realize that they could probably do it better than a lot of people because they do it every day, six days a week, all day every day, five days a week, all day, every day.

[A]

Have you ever met an inmate that you were afraid of?

[B]

No, not yet.

[A]

Not yet.

[B]

I will.

[A]

Have you met an inmate that was. Has been in your program? And you're like, this isn't for them. Like, you just know in the back of your mind, like, tattooing is probably not for them.

[B]

It's not just tattooing. It's their mindsets. It's their personalities. It's like, are you reformed? Are you ready for rehabilitation?

[A]

So it's not necessarily about the tattooing skill itself. It's about their mindset. So if it wasn't tattooing and it was something else, they still don't have the right mindset.

[B]

Yeah. If they're not ready, I'm going to kick you out of the program and say you're not ready yet. I'm gonna say you need more programming. You need more of what DOC has to offer for you before you come to me. Because there's programs out there that literally turn people's lives around. They just have to be receptive to it and want it.

[A]

Right. And. Okay, I see what you're saying. So have you met an inmate that's entered the program and you're like, oh, this person could do huge things?

[B]

Oh, yeah, I got a couple.

[A]

So then what do you do? Like, do you take them under your wing when they are released? Do they come to you when they're released and ask you for a job? And if so, what do you say? Because surely you can't employ every single person or you can you find someone?

[B]

I'll build another shop. Stop playing. Yeah, about growth. But no, it's, it's more about like what they want. Right. So my first question, all of them is, when you get out, where would you want to live? What do you want to do? Right? So that there's three guys right now that'll be getting out within the next two years. All three of them monsters.

[A]

Just like, great work, great work.

[B]

Ready to go. Ready to go.

[A]

And you think that they have not just the skills to tattoo, but just to be productive in society?

[B]

Yeah, I don't even think, to be honest, I don't know why the hell they still in there. I don't, I don't know why they're coming up. They're. They. They don't blow there anymore. We've been through so much to build this program. The amount of stuff that we've had to go. Go through that I'll never talk about because I don't want to bring negative into something so positive.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But the amount of stuff that we had to go through to get to where we got. And, and they say that level headed never was disrespectful or ignorant. It could have been at any time. Could have been and never were. And, and, and how happy and it's just like uplifting they are to everybody. Even when somebody else would do something, they'd pull them up and like, come on, you don't want to do that for yourself or the program. Right. So there's three guys. There's Dre, there's Jo, and there's Sam. They could be out today. They could be out today and they'll be out.

[A]

And you have hope for them.

[B]

I have, I have a lot of high hopes for them and I know that they'll do good. I'm not even worried about it because they have support like Sam has his, his, his. Between his white or his girlfriend, his mom, his, his daughters and all that. It's just the fact of his personality. He'll be fine, right? Dre's the same way. Dre's just a. They, they went to jail. They were kids, man. They were like 18 years old. They're 30 some years old now. And you're like, they grew up in a prison. And to change your mindset and to be that positive in that you don't have people out here like that.

[A]

No, absolutely not.

[B]

Because they don't understand what they're going through like you never would.

[A]

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[B]

So a lot. Trust is one, right? Like, you got to build trust everybody.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And being an IMAX inmate and.

[A]

Oh, you are.

[B]

I've been in every one of the facilities.

[A]

Wait a minute. Time out. Nobody told me this. I didn't do proper research. Apparently you went to prison or you went to jail or you went to both.

[B]

So if you always start from the beginning.

[A]

Yeah, I do.

[B]

Was in a foster care in Camelot, in Wilburton. Then I went to Ferris and Wilmington, Then I went to Smyrna, and then I went to G Hill, Then I went to Georgetown, then I went to asap, Then I went to work release. I've been on house arrest. I've been in all of those situations.

[A]

And just for the record, for anyone listening to this episode specifically, there are no county jails in Delaware. There are only three prisons. There are. If you go to jail, you're going to prison. So do you feel like it was almost like a foster to prison pipeline? Like, do you feel like you being in. You said you were in foster care. That sort of led the way for you to go down.

[B]

So I put myself in foster care. I'll explain. So 16, my dad died. Right.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It was my stepdad, only dad I really knew, but he was like a great guy for me. He was my role model. And I looked up to him heavily. And when he passed away, I didn't see my mom's eyes. Right. I only saw my eyes and like, like my reasonings in life. Right. So she got one of her best friends to come up, move in the house with her and help support, because now she needed support.

[A]

She's a single parent now.

[B]

Yeah, she's a single parent with two kids. The income my dad was bringing in, she no longer has.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So Jimmy came up and helped in her eyes. That was help in my eyes. You brought a man in here trying to be my dad. So I rebelled. Like, completely rebelled. I even took that man's car. This is how I got in foster care. Buddy come back from California, we go up to Newark and we're smoking in this. In this little back little road. And the girl that we're with, that like, is showing us where to go. She's like, yeah, it's a park. It's a national park. And we're going down this hill. There's this wall and there's all these writings on it. And she's like, this is where everybody died because they came down the hill and they were scared. So mind you, now, we park around that wall and we're sitting there, we're smoking. And you hear. And I was like, what the hell is that? And nobody heard it. And I was like, y' all didn't hear that? They said, no. So then this car pulls up and turns his lights on. Not the sirens or anything, just lights. I started that car, put it in for drive so fast I blew my fuses. So I know headlights.

[A]

No, nothing.

[B]

Oh, and I'm going. So I'm running for the police. And next thing you know, I'm like, I gotta stop. Never. Never even got over 35 mile an hour because I was so high. So. So next thing you know, I stop and. And I'm like, I gotta stop because I was getting my cousin. My cousin. Throw the weed out the door. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's water on this side and woods on this side. And there's a big ass hill. And I stopped in the middle of this big ass hill. Oh, they get me out of the car and he's like, walk backwards. And I'm like trying to walk. And you know, you're. You're on this hill. So like.

[A]

And you're high.

[B]

Yeah, and I fall. So I fall. So then I go to the courthouse and the judge is like, you know, blah, blah, what do you want to do to my mom? And my mom's looking and she's like, I can't bring him home. I just took his car. On a high speed or not high speed. On a police chase.

[A]

Wait, the new Jimmy or your. Yeah. So your mom's friend, you took his. Not your stepdads, the.

[B]

I took his truck.

[A]

Oh, so your mom didn't want to bring you home?

[B]

No, because I already had slammed a man up against the wall, punched a hole in the wall right beside his face and told him if he ever told me what to do again, I'd him up. So, like.

[A]

And then stole his car.

[B]

I did. Yeah. We go call stole big borrow. But yeah. So, yeah. So she couldn't bring me home, so I had to go to foster code. So I did that to myself.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So that's how I ended up in foster care. And then I went to Ferris from there.

[A]

What is Ferris?

[B]

Ferris is a juvenile detention center.

[A]

So before you turned 18.

[B]

Yeah. Yep.

[A]

Okay, so you go from foster care to juvenile.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

What else did you do that got you there? I know in prison it's like code. It's on. You just don't talk about it. But are you okay? Okay.

[B]

That's just all.

[A]

I feel like when you're in prison, you don't talk about it, right?

[B]

No, it's while you're being sentenced. And if you're trying to get off on the charge once you've already been sentenced. I've been parted and everything by now. I don't care. I talk about it all. Okay. So, yeah, I mean, I've got it all taken care of now, but. Because acceptance is the key to all this stuff. Like, if you keep hiding on it, it's never gonna. You know, you're always gonna have that problem. But what it was, was because I was so angry all the time. I was just fighting a lot. I was just fighting. I would always. And I was living in Wilmington, and.

[A]

I just hung around there. Yeah.

[B]

Then I hung around the wrong people. And then I got in. A friend of mine met a very well known drug guy. And that's kind of where I started. My life on that side of things was like hustling. But I really, looking back, I was just a mule. Like, I would just go pick the pack. I never exchanged money. I never did. I just. I just exposed packages. So that's kind of like how it led up to where I got. And then when I went to jail. And this is crazy because when I went to Gander Hill, I didn't go to jail for something I did. I swear to God. I don't handle my hand to God. Got all my life. God straight me dead right now. I did not do what they said I did. What happened was I went with my. This boy hit me up. He's like, yo, let's go meet these chicks. We go. You know, I mean, so I'm like, all right, who wouldn't, right? I beat him up. I go take my car to the car wash. We. We were Wilmington. And behind the Short stop was A little car wash. So I'm, like, vacuuming my car out just in case I gotta go in my car. So I'm cleaning the car out.

[A]

Girls are gonna be in there, obviously. Vacuum it out.

[B]

Vacuum out. And I'm cleaning outside, and as I coming out there, all these cop lights are out there. I'm like, what the hell? I don't have anything on me. I don't have anything on.

[A]

Do you think you were set up?

[B]

Oh, the idiot I was with trying to sell some wet to the freaking kid at the Dairy Queen that's just taking the trash out. But I don't know this. I don't know it. I didn't even know it happened. So next thing you know, I'm in handcuffs, and they're talking about. I. I try to sell him. We are selling the stuff. And I'm like, what are we talking about? I ain't selling nobody nothing. So I kind of, like. I took it all the way to court. It was like, I'm just gonna beat it because I didn't.

[A]

You didn't do it.

[B]

I know I didn't do it. Like, I know for a fact I didn't do this. So I just kept getting. I. I kept my faith that it would just work out, and it did. I ended up staying in jail with it. But. But it was a blessing, right? Because to be honest with you, that's where I met this guy named Rich. So I got put in a cell, mind you. I'm 19 years old, bro.

[A]

Tried as an adult, yes.

[B]

But I'm like, I'm just turning 19 years old, and my two guys that I'm in jail with are both in for murder. Kevin's in there for. He was a drug addict on the street, and he killed his drug dealer. Oh, and then Rich was a safe cracker that when they were trying to rob the jewelry store Wilmington, the. The owner came in, and somebody. He startled somebody, and somebody shot the guy in the face, killed him. But. But Rich had his son in there with him, which is, like, night. Or 22 years old. He's, like, a little older than me. So when I came in there and Rich is here, my story, he's like, no, you're not going back to jail, bro. You're not coming back in here. And if you come back here, I'm gonna tear your ass up. So that whole time I was in there, he was, like, teaching me things and, like, trying to get me out on the street. And so we would read the newspaper every day, try to figure out How I could get out, what I could do. He knew I wanted to be a tattoo artist. I was going to be a tattoo artist. It was, it was happening. I just didn't know how, right? So he was like, well, in the newspaper, we kept seeing CDL drivers. It was the only one that didn't say anything about a background check. Because back then you didn't have the Internet. We had a freaking Sunday paper that had all the job hires, right? So we're looking through them, and if it said background check, you exit. So my newspaper would be X, like the whole thing. So the only one that was always there was this one. It was Pioneer Concrete. So I was like, it. I started studying the CDL test, and when I got out, I did exactly what I told Rich I was gonna do. I went out, I went to the dmv, I took the CDL test, passed it, but failed the air test because I didn't know there was an air brake test part. So then I went back seven days later, passed air brake test, went to Pioneer Concrete. It was like this guy Ben, that was the, the. The. The manager of the, of the, that, of that one on Porter Road in Newark. I was like, man, I just need a chance, bro. I just need a job. I'll be your hardest worker. I'll clean, I'll do whatever you need me to do. I just need a chance. And he gave it to me.

[A]

And so you sort of have that same mindset carried over into what you do now with the prison, because, you know, there are people who deserve a second chance. Somebody took the chance on you, gave you a second chance. And so you kind of take that same mindset and use that for this whole program with the prison. And I think that's so incredible. But what do you do if you give someone a chance and they ruin it? Then what?

[B]

That's a guy's ears. I won.

[A]

Okay. So you, you kind of can sleep guilt free knowing you gave them the chance. And that's on them at that point.

[B]

At the end of the day, right? That's manipulation.

[A]

True.

[B]

Because I, I'm with these guys for years, right? Like, 18 months is a lot of time is spent with them. Like Mondays and Fridays, I'm there nine to six, sometimes 10 o' clock at night.

[A]

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[B]

I. Yeah, that's a struggle I deal with. It's a struggle I deal with. I'm working on it. It's kind of hard because I was in my shop so much and I separated myself from it and there was a lot of transitions that happened because of that, you know. And I've gotten to a point now where I think I've rebuilt and restructured to the point where now it's not. It's not. Not. It's not as stressful. Right. But I still miss it. I still love being. It's like a. I love hate. I love being at both and I hate being away from the other one.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I wish I could merge them together. Then I'd be my happiest place ever.

[A]

So what do you do with your shop when you're not able to be there? You have somebody else running it and taking over?

[B]

No, I don't have somebody. At this particular moment, I am looking for somebody. I, I have somebody in mind. I need a manager. I need somebody strong managerial skills, though.

[A]

They don't understand tattoos also, or no tattooing.

[B]

I don't want them to do anything about tattoo tattooing.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I want them just to run a business. I need to run a business. I don't need them to be your best friend. I don't need them to pick sides on things. I need them to run a business.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I have to have that.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And it's hard because my heart picks people.

[A]

Yeah, I'm like that too.

[B]

And then my business mind has to fire people and then my business mind has to separate my heart. And it's hard. Sometimes it's very hard. And you. I know. You know, because you're. You got a big heart. I can see it. So I, you know what I mean when I say that? Like, you know, when you see cancer and you still letting it spread. Right. So it's hard. And that's what I dealt with for a little while. I think we're in a way better space than we've ever been. And I think once I can seal the deal and hire this lady, which, her name's Amber, I'm going to hire. And the reason why is because she, for one, she's military veteran, retired, full 25 years, high level. Also her last career job that she just stepped back from because it was over. It was too much. She was, it was the disrespect she was getting from the ownerships of the people. She ran 10 million, 10100 million dollar companies and they were growing them in light, in, in private equity type of stock stuff. Right. So she did all, she was doing all of that all by herself with just two people on her team. So she was like, you know what? In a way, they were talking to her. She just couldn't do it. So she's like, you know, I don't need to do this. I'm doing this because I love doing this type of stuff.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I, her daughter and my daughter are friends. I was at the birthday party and we were talking and just like her vibe, her energy, she's tattooed up. She loves tattoos. Yeah. Her energy is amazing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I know she could be a boss and I know she would understand structured organization. And I know if I just let the reins go.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I don't micromanage and I just let her go.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I know I have a successful business.

[A]

So is that part, is that part of any of the tattooing program in the prison where you're teaching them the business side of it. Because obviously, being a tattoo artist, whether you own the shop or you work at a shop, there's business elements that you have to be that have to be considered. So what does that look like? Do you feel like some of the inmates don't get enough credit for how smart they are and, you know, that they could run the business side of it, or do you feel like there's a little bit of a struggle there? Depending on what. How long they've been in prison and how removed they are from society.

[B]

Well, any of them getting out, I would say work at least five years to get back to knowing even just technology, social media, and maybe not five years, depending how fast you can learn it. I teach them both. I teach them the business side and the tattoo side. Okay, My opinion, I would want to own shit you wouldn't want to own. No, I'd rather just be the tattoo artist. There's too much fucking stress and too much bullshit as the owner you got to go through as the tattoo artist. I just come to hell in a tattoo. I go home and I get a paycheck at the end of the week. I ain't got to deal with nothing else in between.

[A]

Well, that's funny that you talk about that because my. One of my good friends is a hairstylist. She owns a hair salon, and we always talk about that. I'll ask her, like, who do you think is from your salon? Like. Like, she knows. She's like, certain people in here are going to own their own salon one day. And certain people are meant to work for other people. Not everyone is meant to run a company. And that doesn't mean that they're less of a hairstylist than somebody else or less than a. Less of a tattoo artist. It just means that certain people function better under management and certain people function better as management. So does. Do any of your students. Apprentices.

[B]

Apprentices.

[A]

Apprentices. Do any of them express wanting to work in a shop or own a shop one day?

[B]

Yeah, they. I have a couple that want to own a shop, and they will.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, one is. Gets out in a couple weeks. He'll own a shop.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

He needs to own a shop because he can't work for people.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

He's too high strung. He's like, really? He's very wired.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But he's animated.

[A]

But you think he would be successful?

[B]

He's gonna be. He's an artist, and he's freaking dope as shit.

[A]

That's cool.

[B]

And he airbrushes, he paints, cruise. He's just It. He's. He's a beast. He's just a beast. Like, no matter where he goes, he's gonna be fine. He just has to. His problem is he squirrels everywhere. Oh, so bad. Which I am too. So I get it, right? But. But you got to be able to focus that energy at some points, right? Like, you got to know where you have to put your energy.

[A]

Right?

[B]

And that's what I'm working on him with. But he's so short term, I don't have much time left with him, so he'll find his way. It's just going to probably take him a little longer than it would if he just. Just went under somebody's wing and learned a little bit.

[A]

Have you ever seen an apprentice, like, really work hard for a long time, and they're still just not. Not it?

[B]

Yeah, I've got one that I apprenticed, tattooed him years and years ago, and he just couldn't stop lying about everything, everything. So I sent him to the dump one day. This was the straw. This was what broke everything. I just couldn't do anymore. He was lying about stuff. And then I kind of. I thought he was doing drugs, but he. He. I sent him to the dump, and I gave him 40 bucks. 20 for gas, 20 for the dump. The dump ended up being, like, 18 or something, right? So he put 20 in his truck, bought a pack of cigarettes with the other 20, and then instead of whatever change you had left, putting it to the dump, he built it to me. So I didn't know. And I get this billing, which I never knew. The dump. Did this send you a bill for your dump? And I was like, adam, did you pay the dump fee? And he goes, yeah. I said, why are you lying to me, bro? This is. I got the bill right here. And he goes, oh, well, I got cigarettes. And I was like, what would you do with the other money? And, like, once you steal money from.

[A]

Me, it doesn't matter if it's $5.

[B]

I know what's. I know what's next. So I had to let him go. And to this day, still tattoos, still on the Internet, tattooing out of his house. He ain't grown a bit because he hasn't tried to go somewhere to learn anything. He just, like, took what he knows and just try to use it, but he doesn't know enough yet.

[A]

It's interesting that he's not one of your prison apprentices, and you see so much potential in Some of the people that you have as apprentices in the prison.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What does a typical day look like for you when you go into the prison? You can't bring your phone or. Can you?

[B]

No.

[A]

So do you do strip search? Do you just. Just do cough and squat? Squat. Like, what is it? Tell me.

[B]

So I. I am a. I'm on a. I have a little bit higher of a level there. Okay. So I don't have to do that stuff. You do get patted down. Yeah, okay. You do get patted down. You gotta go through metal detector. You gotta do all the screening, you gotta do everything just as if you were to go to visit somebody. I go through the same thing. Somebody going to visit somebody does.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Everybody in there does. All the. Officer, everybody. There's nobody that doesn't do that. So I go in, and then I go to the admin, which is like Major Dotson. That's my oversight of the program. I go talk to him. Every morning, I do a debrief, see what I need, what I need to do, if there's anything I have to do, and then I give them an update on anything I have.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Then I go back. Go back to the guys, and it's just a whole bunch of shit. Talking and having fun all day.

[A]

Is how many people are in, like, a. Is it a class? Like, would you call it a class or.

[B]

In the program? So it's. It's. It's a tattoo studio. And around the whole outside walls is all tattoo booths, and then in the middle, I have six tables for. For the class. And then there's officer station over here with this big open floor. So the class is in the middle of the tattoo. Artists are around the outside tattooing, and we do classwork during the day. And if now. Now that they're not tattooing or they're all now tattooing, because I don't have a class right now. But how it would look if you came in during the class time is during the day, they would be on the tables doing fake skin, and the artists would be out on the outside. And then we'll stop, we take breaks, we'll go around to the other artists, talk to them, ask questions, you know, see what they could do different than the artist will come over and show them. Like, oh, I remember when I was doing that. Yeah, just try this and do this. Like, so it's. It's. It's each other, all of us helping each other, right? It's not just me helping. It's all of us helping.

[A]

So how important Was it for you to make the space as close to a traditional tattoo shop?

[B]

It's the only way I was going to do it.

[A]

Why?

[B]

Because I wanted them to feel what it like feels like when you're out on the street, when you walk in there, you're not in a prison in.

[A]

The area where you're tattooing.

[B]

Yeah, it doesn't feel like a prison. If they were not in white clothes and there was no officer in there and you just had regular clothes on the streets, you would never know that you were in a prison. You'd be like, yo, this is a pretty dope tattoo studio.

[A]

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[B]

No, not really.

[A]

Really?

[B]

No. Because the uppers wanted it so bad.

[A]

But why though, do you know, Bobby.

[B]

Was trying to get it in a meeting one day, Bobby said, which was crazy. He's went through five commissioners before. One commissioner said, yes, Bobby May was trying to put this program in for the last like, 10 years, but they wouldn't do it.

[A]

But that's what I'm saying, though, I guess. Like, why tattooing versus something else? Like, why?

[B]

Because you don't walk into a tattoo studio say, are you a felon? You know what I mean? Where if you're in here changing my plummet in my sink, and I'm like, yo, that dude look like he owns some shit. Right? Like, you're not looked at as the same. Most tattoo artists, like, let's just be real. A lot of tattoo artists before this, this generation of what we got going on right now, most of the tattoo artists back in the day was something drug addict, felon, something.

[A]

Yeah. I was telling you before I was. I was telling Larry before we recorded that I wanted to be tattooed so bad. And unfortunately that I think he's in recovery now. But the tattoo artist that started tattooing me was. Was on drugs pretty bad. So I don't think he was ever a felon. But I don't know.

[B]

I didn't care it was one or the other. He usually. Usually when you walked in a shop, it was a flip flop top. Either he was on dope, or back then it was opiates and opioids.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or he was out of jail.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

So, yeah, it was like that. And it was very aggressive because I.

[A]

Was thinking, like, why not like a hair class to become like a bar?

[B]

We do have that coming.

[A]

Oh, you do?

[B]

Yeah. There's a stipulate.

[A]

Can I just make a suggestion on that? As a mom of six boys, I need. This is a PSA to all general public and cosmetology. I need the cosmetology schools to teach barber.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And I need barbers to teach scissor work because I am so sick of taking my boys to the barber and then to a hair stylist because the barbers don't know how to do scissor work and the hair stylists don't know how to do fades. So send help.

[B]

I feel you. That.

[A]

So please, if you're going to have any hand in that, please ask them to teach all the things.

[B]

I've got a son that, you know. Most, these, most of the boys nowadays want to have this long hair.

[A]

Yeah, I know.

[B]

So my son's got. And he's got pretty ass hair, but I'm like, we gotta do something with it. And then when you cut it and you go to this, like you said, you go to the stylist and then the freaking shape up looks like you're like, all right, now I gotta go to the barber.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I feel you on that. And we are so. It is, there's, it's both.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's just gonna be a while. There was a little. There's, there's some hiccups. So we're trying to figure out if. Right now they're trying to figure out if DOC is gonna run the program or is doe, Department of Education. Who's going to run a program.

[A]

I did hear I have a couple teacher friends and they were talking about how teachers are leaving the school districts to go teach in prisons now for a higher pay. Is that something that is.

[B]

The money isn't really the purpose of this because you don't make none.

[A]

So this is more of.

[B]

I lose, I lose ass being in there every day.

[A]

So this is a passion project.

[B]

It's a heart project. That's all it is. And that's the only reason I do it. But still, because I've almost quit a couple times.

[A]

What, what are, what would you say are the most stressful points of all of this? Like when you say you've almost quit a couple times, like, what would lead you to that?

[B]

Giving me the wrong person to be in contact with. So I had Major Dotson for a while as my lead, right. And then they gave me another guy. I'm not gonna say his name, God bless him, but he is more of like a crush. T dot your eyes. Everything's just one way, no other way. There's no gray area, there's no second chance kind of stuff that should be there, that's not there, that he just couldn't understand and he was trying to run it and he was digging in the ground. And I was like, I'm not gonna deal. I'm not gonna do that. I'm not. If my heart's not in this, I'm not gonna be in it. I don't need to be there. I don't. There's. The money is not there, right? For me to be like, passion. Oh, oh, I gotta worry about. No, I go home and quadruple what I'm making in there in a day. So I, I, I, I. So it has to stay in my heart. So if as long as you stay respectful, I stay respectful and you let the progression happen and don't let us just stall and then don't help, would need help. Like there is so re entry in the prison. There is re entry but there's not. Like how I say that is if you get out, like say you take my program and you don't make any money, right? Like the new class, there's only 12 weeks. They haven't made money yet. But one of them get a commutation. Now they're getting out. You don't have any rent money, you don't have how you gonna get a house, how you gonna get travel, how you gonna get anything? Nothing's there. Nothing's there. Absolutely nothing. That's what I'm working on now is like because I have a non profit so I use my non profit to get funded to try to help with that stuff, right? I haven't started even marketing that yet to get that money. But that's what I'm working on right now is getting the funding for those guys.

[A]

So this program, the apprenticeship for tattooing is only one piece of it, right? Because they could leave with all of the certifications or the bloodborne pathogens and sanitation, all of those skills and the, the actual skill and talent to tattoo. But to your point, where are they living? Yeah, where are, how are they eating and where are they going to go work if they don't have a place to live? So what would be the bridge to Gap?

[B]

So the bridge because it's not enough people, right? It's not like I'm doing a lot, right? I'm doing six to ten a year, right? Okay, six, six a year if I'm lucky, okay. So the gap is finding, finding good hearted people, businesses, banks, anything that would donate to a potential lot of money that could just be for like voucher style. Like because DSHA has vouchers, right? They do two year vouchers for like less fortunate people, people about to be faced with hopelessness. People stemming from like organizations get these vouchers, like GVI gets vouchers, right? Everybody gets vouchers to help with housing, right? But, but I don't have any. So like I'm working on that, right? That's the stuff I'm trying to get because that's what's missing it.

[A]

So how can everyday people help? I know you're saying organizations just donate.

[B]

Donate even if it's a dollar, even it's $2. Because like if you get enough people donating to that fund, right? That fund's only used there's that my non profit is only used for reentry and rehabilitation for the community. Right. So like right now I got money for podcast equipment, a bunch of it. I'm wait, I'm about to go buy all the podcast equipment for the prison. So.

[A]

Okay, so then the, the. The podcast will be based in the prison?

[B]

Yeah, all of it.

[A]

So then how do people find your organization to donate to the organization?

[B]

It's called Next Generation Outcome. They can reach out to me and I can send them out to it. I literally have not done anything with Monopoly. I've had it since 2019 and I just started using it because I was paying out of pocket for everything. I've literally funded since 2019, this whole thing myself, I've never had help. Help.

[A]

And so would for example, with. With this non profit if. If it ends up working out the way that the plan.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That it's planned to do, you would. Would an inmate be able to be released and like request X amount of dollars from the non profit to be able to get an apartment?

[B]

So what I do is I build an exit. Praying while we're in jail still. Okay, we build an exit plan. I find a landlord's. So it's what I do now. Like I literally find them with a job. Like, I got a guy Getting out January 5th, I already have him a job. I had to move all the way to Laurel because he has too much beef in Wilmington. And so I took his ass to send him all the way back down to the south. So I got him a job in Laurel, got him a house in Milton. Now I just got to find a funding, right. So I'm working, but I got to work in sections because I got to figure out how much I need before I get. So that's what I do. I build an extra strategy plan like, okay, you're gonna live in Laurel. Okay, you could take the bus. You don't need a car. Right.

[A]

Like, but what about like for example, first month security? First month, first and last month security deposit? Furniture.

[B]

Yep, furniture. I'm pretty sure we could get a secondhand stores.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, no doubt.

[B]

Keep that low minimum. Shoot, you could probably make posts to get that stuff for free. But more so it'd be like first month's rent, security deposit, and maybe even like a little beater car or something. Right. And then a couple months insurance on the car, a little bit of gas money, put some food in their house, and I go food bank of America and get some stuff there, you know, like there's a lot of organizations and places. I get a lot of things and that's what I do with Them now is I build all that up, we build an exit strategy and then I work with the re entry program that they have, which is more so of like them making sure they have what they need. Like do you have a house or you have a house where you staying? It's not saying they're going to give you the money. They just want to see that you have a place to go because they have to, they have to have verified stuff. So the goal is with like somebody's getting closer to being out. I usually try to tend to wait like two months and I reach out to landlords and I have a lot of landlords and I have a lot of realtors I work with that from Sussex to Wilmington that I work with that usually have a house on the market. And if they don't or if they have one coming up in six months, I'm like, hey, when I was getting closer, hit me up every month from three months out. Let me know that you're getting closer and I'll let you know if I have somebody that's going to be around that same time.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So that's how I'm working it. It's just a lot of work. It's like a lot of upkeep. I stay, I'm on the Internet. Like I'm on the emails and messages and phone calls are just mostly my life right now.

[A]

Trying to just get everything organized to.

[B]

It has pretty much. I'm only tattooing two days a week, three days a week right now. And that still sets me back a lot because when I tattoo, my clients are long. They're like eight hour days.

[A]

But you have to be able to do that to sustain this because this is the passion. But you have to have income to live.

[B]

I got, I got a nice lifestyle. I want to still live. Oh my gosh.

[A]

So. And you talked about your kids a little bit. You have two kids?

[B]

I have four.

[A]

You have four kids. What was their reaction when you, when they found out that you were doing this?

[B]

Ah, they're so used to it.

[A]

Just another, another thing that's just. Dad, do they have, have they expressed any interest in wanting to tattoo or do anything with the prison?

[B]

All right, so I have a 23 year old. I have a 20. Well, 22. About all their ages are. They're all February 12th, March 1st, March 4th, March 17th. So all my kids are like real close. Right. But they're 23, 17. 23, 17, 16 and 8.

[A]

Well, we know what time of year you were getting busy.

[B]

Yeah. So Damn, damn. Summer, they get you. But, but, but my 23 year old's really showing interest in it.

[A]

Okay. Actually in the prison or in the tattooing or both.

[B]

Tattooing. He, he's, he's like my, he was with me from the beginning. It was always just me and him for a long time. For seven years it was just me and him and we've always been pretty close and he just wants to, he's always wanted to tattoo. He did a tattoo of a leg when he was like 8 years old. He's always been passionate about it. I just have never really spent the time needed to give him the information and teach him the way he should be taught. And I still, I'm still not. I need to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I want to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But we had just like a lot of parents with kids when they hit teenage years, you kind of separate a little bit and you realize if you fight with your kid too much, you lose it them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you got to accept some and then you gotta fight the fights that need to be fought. So I couldn't separate that for a long, long time. And I think right now my son and I have bridged a gap that's a lot better than it's ever been.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I'm trying to work with him right now and I pray it works out. Right.

[A]

It will.

[B]

I think it will. I believe it will. I believe God's got a plan, but he's, he's working, he's showing interest. Now as far as the president, he's a little timid on that part. I don't know, he might help one day, but I don't know, he's, he, he can be manipulated, I think because he's got a, he does have a heart of gold. But he also has an aggression sometimes. So I don't want him to go in there and get manipulated or even do something stupid like, I don't know, he's, I don't know if he's ready for that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But as far as tattooing. Yes, he definitely wants to tattoo.

[A]

And then the rest of your kids no interest yet?

[B]

Nah. Well, this, my 17 year old boy, he wants to do. He's just gonna go to military. He's a, he's a hands on guy. He loves working on cars, bikes and all that stuff. He wants to do mechanical. So he's thinking just go to the military. Four years, so he's gonna go to the military. And then my, my oldest daughter is gonna go to Florida to college.

[A]

Oh, nice.

[B]

And she's still trying to Figure out what she wants to do. Right. She doesn't really.

[A]

Do we ever know? Like, I'm 33, and I'm like, I think I'm gonna go back to school now. You know? Like, do we.

[B]

And I don't push it. I don't push it.

[A]

No.

[B]

First she wanted to do cosmetology because her mom did that for a long time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Then she was like, no. Then she wanted to do nursing because one of her best friends does nurses. Now she's like, I don't know. And I'm like, girl, listen. I don't really care. Whatever you want to do, just do it.

[A]

Just do it.

[B]

But she really wants to go to college in Florida. She does play softball. She does school ball, travel ball, even Little League. She does it all. She just loves softball. So hopefully she's not a D1 yet. She could be with if she actually would. Would focus more on traded. But she. She does everything. It's like she's on a roll. Honor society, works full time at Chick Fil. A plus does travel ball. So she's just busy. I don't even see her. I. We're going Christmas shopping Sunday. And I said, just wave when you see me, because I forget what you look like, because she's always gone. So, you know, it's just what it is. But. And I like that hustler's ambition, though.

[A]

Because how do you think that you're sort of. Your determination and your. Your own work ethic has influenced not just your own kids, but the inmates, too? Like, do you think they look to you and they're like, okay, if you can own a tattoo shop and raise kids and do this program in the prison, like, are they looking at you as somebody to look up to?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And they work. Listen, they work 9 to 10, so.

[A]

It'S like, work for them, but in a. Yeah. A work that they like, like to do. And.

[B]

And the thing is, is that mentality, if you bring it out here, there's no tattoo artists around here working 9:00am to 10:00pm at night. So you're bridging a gap that, like, 5:00 o' clock to 10:00'. Clock. Most tattoo shops have shut down now.

[A]

5:00Pm to 10:00pm yeah. Because I thought that's when most people were getting tattooed.

[B]

It used to be that way. But the thing is, is most f. What you got to remember, most of these tattoo artists that are family people got. Got kids. They want to spend time with their family. Twenty years of my career, I worked 11 to 7, Monday through Saturday My wife came to me a few years back and she's like, babe, can you change that sub? And I was like, you know what? I'll do it.

[A]

And you did it.

[B]

Yeah. Sucked Every. Every bit of it. Every bit of. I lost a lot of Money. I went 9 to 5 Monday through Friday and cut Saturday AIDS for my business. You talking about. I went 12 rounds with Mike Tyson. He bit my ear on both sides of it. It was a lot. I lost a lot of money. I lost a lot of sleep. I lost a lot of stress. And I had to, like, pretty much get rid of all debt, pay off all debt with all of my money, pay off all debt, and then reset and restart my whole life over again. And that's what I did.

[A]

But was it worth it, do you think? Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Now. Now, like, and now. Now we're working now. Shots back over Saturday, 11 to 7. Like, man, so you live and you learn, right? Yeah. And that's not me. That's artist choice. I don't pick that day. Like, Saturday is never going to be a day. Like, you gotta come to work. I'm like, if you want to work, if you want that money, get that money. I'm not gonna say no to it. It, like, I work Saturdays here and there where the wife gives me perish. No awarded. Well, she'd be like, yeah, I got it.

[A]

Could you ever see this being only because I, I. My background is in tv. Could you ever seeing this be a TV show?

[B]

Yeah, actually, it's funny. I already have a TV show started. We're already in the works of the TV show.

[A]

If you could choose what platform or what streaming network you used, what would it be?

[B]

You know what? I don't know. I don't know that stuff. Right? Like, I don't know enough about it, but honestly, I'd want it to where the masses could see it. So somewhere where you would have to pay a premium for it, right? Like somewhere where people.

[A]

So YouTube, potentially.

[B]

YouTube maybe, but. So you ever heard of Wheelhouse? Yeah, that's who I'm working with.

[A]

Oh, cool.

[B]

So, and the guy, he pretty much done most of the prison program, prison TV shows.

[A]

Okay, cool.

[B]

As though. Cool guy. But we're working with him right now. That's what I'm working with on. On building the show. We already have it pretty much all the way mapped out. It's just the prison wants to work slower, right? So, like, one at a time, you're.

[A]

Sort of at their mercy. Like, as they feel they are able to open things up.

[B]

And they will. And it will happen. It's going to happen.

[A]

It's just where do the funds come from for the tattoo equipment to make it look like a shop for the mics and stuff or the podcast that you guys are going to do and like where does the funding come from for that?

[B]

So the podcast, all the equipment came from me. It came from my non profit organization I work with. His names, Matthew Parks. He was the ce. He was the CEO of Capital One. Now been bought out or discovered. Now it's been bought out by Capital One.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So that's usually where I get my money from. Is he. He gave me the money for that. And then as far as the equipment and stuff, the original budget came off of the arts program in the prison.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Now the money is from the artist working. Because there in there, how it works is a Tattoo could be 25 to. To whatever. Right? So a lot of the tattoos are cheaper, but they're still at a 10 of whatever you pay on the street. Okay. So that's how it's kind of mapped out. Right. So a full sleeve might only cost you 500 bucks.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

A full sleeve, like these dudes are killing these pieces. Like, I'm like, damn it, I'm jealous. Right? So. So that's how it's working. But now they're tattooing staff as well. So how it works is they have to use vacation time or they have to have off time. So what we did was to bridge that was we do a weekday like a Wednesday or Thursday where it's kind of like everybody will have off that day because how they. How their schedules are shifted. And then a weekend, Saturday and Sundays are open. So. So now they're doing staff. So now you're talking. We've done over 341tattoos already. They've done over all just regular inmates. And I think we're only at 14 is staff right now. We're still growing, but it's just kind of. Because we can only do arms right now.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because the warden kind of slowly rolls everything. When I say slow roll, he slow roll everything. You don't play.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Legs will probably be next. You know, we're trying to. We're trying to avoid any inappropriateness or something. Right. Like that could happen. So. Right. That's what we're nervous of.

[A]

Right. No, and that's fair.

[B]

So right now we're on arms. I think we're going to go to legs next and then maybe backs after that. It'll. It'll slowly transition. And when they do staff. Nobody else could be in there, just staff, half in the tattoo artist. So a lot of my artists work seven days a week. I'm talking 13 hour days. They're getting it. You get that mentality out here, you're gonna shut stuff down. Because if you live on social media and you stay on social media and you just promote yourself and you're tattooing that much, the amount of content that you can have just to keep you, you'll be fine. Right? That's all it really takes. People just don't. A lot of us are. I. I've been marketing myself before Facebook and all this was here. So if you go back to when I started, how I used to get my promotion was I'd go with two 30 packs down to Wesley College and I'd listen to whoever's partying. And I walk up and just want to play beer pong. Next thing you know, I'm tattooing all of the football players for years.

[A]

So you were marketing before marketing was a thing.

[B]

Yeah. And like now, that's all this is now is like, like getting on YouTube, getting on channels, talking to people and get on social media, free platforms.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And promote yourself.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Like, that's the best thing ever. I had to spend money, I had to go buy beer, and I don't gotta do that now. I just get online and talk and next thing you know, I got somebody wanting a tattoo. Like, that's the best thing ever.

[A]

Why do you think it's important for people listening to this podcast to know what you're doing and why is it important to do what you're doing?

[B]

I think why they should know is because they can help. Like, they can help support it by just showing love. Like, they don't have to do nothing other than just go show love.

[A]

How do we break the stereotype between tattoos and inmates and tattoos in general? Because I think that's why people are hesitant in general about tattoos, about prison reform, because they don't know, how do we break those stigmas?

[B]

It's. So think of it like this, right? Say you love to do hair.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

But if you did, right. But your family could never afford for you to go to college, holiday school, so you could never do it. So then you had to go work a job for like 20 years, a job you hated every day. So look at it like that. Like, these are artists that love art. Like, love it, right? Live and breathe art, right? They want to do something art related for the rest of their life. This is that gap for them.

[A]

Right. And you don't have to get tattooed by them to support them.

[B]

No.

[A]

You don't spread the message.

[B]

They don't just tattoo, they paint. They, they do, they do all kinds. Like every one of them are artists. So they, the patents that we have. You could go on doc's website. We have patents that they've done that are for sale.

[A]

I just pulled up the article. One of the articles, there's several about the DOC launching the tattoo artist career pathway to support rehabilit rehabilitation and protect inmate health.

[B]

Health.

[A]

And I think that's a really important piece. I know we touched on it a little bit, but the health.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Portion of it. Okay. So she says in the article we recognize that tattooing is a part of prison culture and we are concerned about the health risks that come from unsanitary tattooing inside the walls. She says that the Tattoo artist career pathway program demonstrates their creative thinking to bring prison tattooing out of the shadows. But also, and I'm summarizing here, like creating a safe space to do it with educational opportunities to build a practical career and prevent the spread of bloodborne diseases. So do you have to do that in the state of Delaware whether you're in prison or not, to learn about like the bloodborne pathogens and all of that?

[B]

It's, it's a regular. You have to have that to be a tattoo artist. You have to have that.

[A]

Okay. So you're. But that is part of the piece in the prison so that when they come out, they're not only tattooing in a safe way in prison, they'll also have all of those skills and education pieces outside of the prison.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And so the, the, the fun fact about that part is that was one of the biggest selling points too was when I did a deep dive onto it, over 80 people a year were getting going to the hospital or medical. Medicals for tattoo related problems was cost the taxpayers $2.5 million in medical bills. Now we're less than $80,000 this year.

[A]

Here because of the education behind.

[B]

Because they're not tattooing like they were.

[A]

So we have less when they're, we're. When there are programs like this in place, there's a safer way to tattoo. One in prison and two outside versus inmates who never had any type of training or apprenticeship coming out of prison and trying to tattoo right off the bat with no education. This sort of curbs that.

[B]

Yep. Because we, we're, we're regular. It's a licensed and regulated tattoo studio. Like it's brand by the Board of Health. The Board of Health Inspection.

[A]

James T. Vaughn Correctional Center Tattoo Studio. Is that like, separate from artistic editions?

[B]

Yeah, so that's the. That's one of the hurdles. Right. So when it first started, I was supposed to be. The program was supposed to be named after my. What I wanted to be named after, then quickly found out that the program will never succeed if DOC doesn't own the rights to the tattoo studio. I don't want to eat. Right. I don't need to own the rights to that. So that. That part I let go. But they called it James T. Ball Correctional. Yeah.

[A]

Who is James T. Vaughn?

[B]

That's the prison. That's the actual. To be honest, I don't even know. He was probably a CO that maybe. Maybe the warden at one point. That's a good question. Now you got me because like.

[A]

Like, if I saw that, it would be like, I don't know what this means.

[B]

Yeah, but the Correctional center is where you catch the. The grip of it. But I like, I got better names. I'm not gonna say them because we.

[A]

Tried to email you because we were like, let's get him to bring his tattoo equipment to tattoo me during this. So maybe we'll have to do a part two with updates and we can get tattooed during.

[B]

Yeah, that'd be fun.

[A]

During the session. Some of the art on here, like on these articles, I'm assuming, are by inmates. And they're incredible that the.

[B]

Those. Those photos, though, are nothing. That was like the very, very beginning. If you could see what they're doing right now, which I'm trying to get released photos now to be able to post. It's just a lot of work because you gotta understand, I gotta go through doj. I gotta go through DOC There's a lot to just take a picture and put it out on Internet. I can't just do that.

[A]

Oh, you can't?

[B]

Hell no. They don't play.

[A]

Would you hire any of your current apprentices at. At Artistic Editions? Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Only the ones that I know. There's the three that are about to get out have the right energy, the right personality, the right charisma, and the right art level of skill. Yes. Not all of them. No. There's a cut. There's quite a few in there. I would not hire my shop. That's he. That I have right now. Only because I don't want to disrupt what I have right now. Right now.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I would only bring in people that I meet that would meet that energy.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

If not, I'll just open it up another one.

[A]

There's a certain energy in every business, right. Whether it's a hair salon or a tattoo shop or even a doctor's office. Right. Like, you have to find someone that fits into the team.

[B]

And I have women that work for me, like, so I don't want her to feel like, you know, oh, God, this guy's out of prison. So I would never want that energy to be there. And if I felt like one of those guys would be aggressive in nature by that way, he would never work worker.

[A]

Okay, Right.

[B]

So, like, yeah, I'm very picky. No, I think because it's my. It's my livelihood.

[A]

Absolutely. Your name's all over everything. The prison now, the. Your shop, the everything. So if.

[B]

If I. Yeah, yeah. It's a lot. You know, it's a lot. It's a lot of pressure, but it's also. It's rewarded. So I don't care.

[A]

It ends up being worth it. And when all is said and done. But if. If there is anything that you want the listeners to take away from this episode, what would it it be?

[B]

Don't ever give up on somebody. Right? Don't. The second chances is real. Like, if. If my mom gave up on me and everybody gave up on me when I was going through my phases in life before, I really got that aha moment when it was time for that change. Just know that one word could change that. Just, I love you. I miss you. I hope you do better. Right? Like, and leave it alone. But love from a distance until you can come back.

[A]

Back. Right.

[B]

I would say it. Never judge that book until you read it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

People like to take and look at you and think that that's. That is who you are. Just because I see you with tattoos and I. Oh, you've been in prison and all that stuff. I had. I was tattooing a client a few months back, and she said, you're teaching the convicts. I was like, girl, I was one. Did she not know she loved the. Out of me how you love me. But you can't lie, like, because you. Because you just so quickly. Don't do that. Stop. In this world that we're in because we have so much easy keyboard. And now you could just get on and say whatever you want to say. We. We tend to judge a lot harder than we've ever done in our life. Take some of that back and stop doing so much of that and actually try to find a positive in the negatives, and your life can change. For you in your own way.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

So that's what I would say. Take from it all.

[A]

Okay. And where. Where can people find you? And where can people find. I guess. Well, your shop is in Dover.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I don't really know how to promote the inmates, but where can people find you?

[B]

So what I would say is just follow me, Larry Normal or whatever platform and just follow me, because as they come out, I will be promoting the out of them. I will make sure they get owed.

[A]

I feel like it would only make sense for me to get tattooed by one of them when they get out.

[B]

That'd be cool, actually.

[A]

So save me for one of their first.

[B]

I could have you come in and you could get tattooed in there. Here.

[A]

Okay, perfect. Bring me into the prison. Count me in. I'll be there.

[B]

I could definitely do that.

[A]

And then artistic editions, do they have their own accounts?

[B]

Every platform, too. Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so go follow. And how can people donate to your.

[B]

Nonprofit Next generation Outcome if you reach out to the Next generation Outcome, like go on Facebook. I don't have a website. Don't.

[A]

You'll get there.

[B]

You'll get there. I just literally have started. But if you reach out to me and I can send you the. The donation link and all that stuff so you can do it. I'll give you the items.

[A]

Or just money.

[B]

No, we could take it. So we will need clothes. We will need clothes for these guys.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

They're. And I can give you sizes of.

[A]

The beds and we'll put all the stuff in the description too. Thank you so much for coming on Barely Famous.

[B]

Well, thank you. Yeah. Thank you for having me, Sam.

[A]

Pluto TV has thousands of free movies and TV shows. This is the mindset.

[B]

Free.

[A]

This is the mantra. Free.

[B]

This is the mindset. With movies like Joe dirt, pixels, and 50 first dates. This is awesome. And TV shows like Survivor, SpongeBob SquarePants, the Fairly Odd Parents, and Ghosts. Pluto TV is always free.

[A]

Huzzah. Pluto TV stream. Now pay.

[B]

Never. You're welcome. I'm Justin Sylvester. And I'm Blakely Thornton. Join us for yesterdays, the podcast where we break down the most pivotal pop culture moments in history and give them the queer love that they deserve. The things that got us riled up during dial up. Those makeouts that should have been breakouts and the drops that were cemented in pop. I'm talking Benifer, Tyra versus Naomi, Tom Cruise jumping on that couch, and so much more. So please rate us, subscribe to us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or anywhere you get audio Related content We also take Venmo and cash app ach or credit card number as well. We're malleable, you know we're gay today.