Barely Famous: "The Human Side Of Criminal Defense With Kayla Murphy"

Host: Kail Lowry
Guest: Kayla Murphy, Criminal Defense Attorney (K. Murphy Law, Wenatchee, WA)
Date: March 27, 2026

Episode Overview

In this episode, Kail Lowry has an in-depth, candid conversation with Kayla Murphy, a criminal defense attorney from Washington State and dedicated listener of the podcast. The two discuss the often-misunderstood world of criminal defense: its ethical dilemmas, the realities of the courtroom, public perception, the complexities of defending people from all walks of life, and the emotional burden defense attorneys bear. Kayla’s insight exposes the personal and human side of defending clients—both guilty and innocent—exploring topics like the public defender system, the nuances of legal rights, the role of shame, and the challenges immigrants face in the justice system.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

How Kayla Became a Criminal Defense Attorney

• Origin Story ([02:06–03:58])
  • Kayla was drawn to criminal law from watching Cops and America’s Most Wanted as a kid, initially thinking she’d want to be a prosecutor.
  • “As I grew older, I just realized that people are very dynamic... most people are really capable of anything given the right circumstances. And I mean, frankly, I’ve loved most of my clients... good people who just made a mistake.” — Kayla ([03:21])
  • Finds beauty in guiding people through shame and harm.

The Realities of Becoming and Being a Lawyer

• Law School vs. Apprenticeship ([03:58–06:31])

  • Law school mainly teaches legal concepts, not practical lawyering; most useful was the Socratic method for thinking on your feet.
  • Acknowledges that state-based apprenticeship ("reading law," as Kim Kardashian is doing) can produce attorneys who are more comfortable in court.
  • "There's a better way to do it." — Kayla on apprenticeships ([05:15])

• Specializing and Bar Reciprocity ([09:16–09:48])

  • Kayla is barred in Washington but is eligible for reciprocity in other states after five years' practice.

Public Defenders vs. Private Attorneys

• Who Gets What? ([10:04–12:02])

  • Most people get a public defender only if they fall below certain poverty guidelines.
  • "I want to say it's 80% of people end up having to use... a public defender." — Kayla ([11:49])

• Quality Differences ([15:26–15:53])

  • “Some of the best criminal defense attorneys I’ve ever known have been public defenders... It’s just really based on the individual.”

Domestic Violence and Law Enforcement Dynamics

• Victims Arrested ([16:01–19:13])
  • Law enforcement often arrests the more visibly upset party, which can mean arresting the actual victim.
  • "The perpetrator can, like, turn it off and be really charming... bond with the officer... flip the script." — Kayla ([17:29])
  • Shares a case where a wrong person (the victim) was arrested while in the shower, highlighting law enforcement’s misreading of domestic dynamics.

Ethics and Strategy in Defense Work

• Defending the Guilty ([20:46–23:27])

  • The challenge: Clients who may not be truthful; an attorney can't present false testimony and may have to withdraw.
  • "Lawyering is really, like, more of an art form... people just have different styles." — Kayla ([21:59])
  • Focuses on investigating alternative narratives and issues in every case.

• Plea Deals, Sentencing, and Trial Odds ([24:03–29:50], [54:01–57:16])

  • Most criminal cases end in plea deals—about 95%.
  • Plea deals often result from fear of harsher sentences at trial or prosecutorial threats.
  • "Our criminal legal system is disturbingly like a game of poker." — Kayla ([27:15])
  • Sometimes, even innocent clients take plea deals to avoid risk.

• Jury Selection and Gender Dynamics ([30:10–35:37])

  • Voir dire ("jury questioning") is Kayla's favorite part—often comes down to "vibes."
  • Kayla prefers more men than women on a jury for female defendants, as male jurors may feel protective.

Rights, Social Perception, and Practical Advice

• Know Your Rights ([36:19–43:42])

  • Always ask for an attorney: “Just because you request an attorney right away does not mean you're guilty... You should always ask for an attorney.” — Kayla ([36:19])
  • Police are legally allowed to lie in interrogations in all states.
  • Never consent to a search; only obey legal requests for identification or license.
  • “Most people think they can talk themselves out of it. You can't.” — Kayla ([71:09])

• Taking the Stand and the Fifth Amendment ([44:56–46:42])

  • Most defense attorneys advise clients not to testify, as cross-examination is high-risk.
  • Pleading the Fifth is usually seen as incriminating.
  • "I've never won a trial where I had a client testify." — Kayla ([45:49])

• Social Media Evidence ([52:41–53:54])

  • Social media is often used as evidence; by the time a defense attorney is involved, the prosecution likely already has screenshots.
  • Deleting posts after arrest doesn’t matter—evidence is already preserved.

The Human Burden of Defense

• Shame and Punishment ([62:19–64:20])

  • Many clients feel extreme shame, which is often a punishment in itself.
  • “I just feel like a lot of being a criminal defense attorney is just bearing witness to human suffering.” — Kayla ([62:48])

• Representing the Accused ([60:38–62:19])

  • Kayla hasn't yet defended a murder charge but would; believes most clients are not “bad people,” just people who made mistakes.

Working with Immigrant and Undocumented Clients

• Barriers and Collateral Risks ([64:20–69:53])
  • Defense attorneys can and do represent undocumented immigrants.
  • Marrying criminal law and immigration issues is deeply stressful; for some clients, a conviction means deportation and grave danger.
  • Reporting crimes as an undocumented immigrant is risky and can lead to ICE involvement, even in “sanctuary” states.
  • Kayla suggests distributing “red cards” outlining immigrants' rights during police encounters.

Advice for Aspiring Lawyers and Final Thoughts

• Pursuing Law ([71:52–73:48])

  • “Bigger dummies than us have done it.” — Kayla, on the accessibility of law school ([71:52])
  • The profession needs more people who genuinely "give a fuck" and retain humility.
  • Lawyering offers the privilege of empowering people through their most vulnerable times.
  • Kayla feels it’s an honor to be trusted with someone’s freedom.

• Where to Find Kayla Murphy ([73:58])

  • Podcast: Drinks with Defenders
  • Law firm: K. Murphy Law, Wenatchee, WA

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On law school vs. real-world law practice:

  “Law school really doesn't teach you how to be a lawyer. I think it's something that you just have to learn on the job.” — Kayla ([04:13])

• On defense work’s emotional toll:

  “I just see a lot of suffering. I just feel like a lot of being a criminal defense attorney is just bearing witness to human suffering.” — Kayla ([62:48])

• On defending the guilty:

  “I just. I don't think that just because somebody did something terrible, I don't think that that needs to define them for their whole lives.” — Kayla ([19:13])

• On why people take plea deals:

  "Our criminal legal system is disturbingly like a game of poker." — Kayla ([27:15])

• On representing immigrants:

  “Suddenly doing, like, a death penalty case, theoretically... If this person gets convicted and then they're, like, deported into a dangerous situation... The collateral consequences for immigrant clients are just so substantial.” — Kayla ([64:54–65:53])

• On advice to those aspiring to law:

  “Bigger dummies than us have done it.” — Kayla ([71:52])

• On the ambiguity of outcomes and humanity:

  “We're just all capable of such harm, but also... the capacity to love and to do good.” — Kayla ([59:10])

Key Timestamps

• [02:03] — Kayla’s introduction, law background
• [03:10] — Why criminal law?
• [05:04] — Law school vs. apprenticeship paths
• [06:31] — Kim Kardashian’s law path & public perception
• [09:16] — Bar reciprocity, multi-state practice
• [10:04] — How/when public defenders get assigned
• [15:16] — Public defenders vs. private defense attorneys
• [16:01] — Why victims sometimes get arrested
• [17:29] — The role of charm and manipulation in domestic violence arrests
• [20:46] — Handling the “guilt” question as a defense lawyer
• [24:03] — DUIs and why they’re complex cases
• [27:15] — Plea deals explained
• [30:10] — Jury selection and its psychology
• [36:19] — “Ask for an attorney right away”—debunking myths
• [40:12] — Refusing searches and the levels of suspicion
• [44:56] — Testifying, pleading the Fifth, and public perception
• [52:41] — Social media as evidence
• [54:01] — Percentage of cases that go to trial
• [60:38] — Would Kayla defend a murder charge? Emotional implications
• [62:19] — Shame as punishment
• [64:20] — Defending undocumented immigrants
• [68:41] — “Red cards” for immigrants’ rights
• [71:52] — Advice for aspiring defense lawyers
• [73:58] — Where to find Kayla Murphy (Drinks with Defenders, K. Murphy Law)

Closing Notes & Tone

Kayla’s tone is empathetic, pragmatic, and deeply human, emphasizing that people—clients, cops, jurors—are complicated and often just doing their best under tough circumstances. Kail Lowry’s interview approach is raw, inquisitive, and open, frequently relating topics to her own experiences, her children, and public perceptions shaped by media.

The episode provides an unvarnished look at defense work, myth-busting media portrayals, and reinforcing the critical importance of rights, advocacy, and humility in the justice system.

For more:

• Listen to Kayla’s podcast, Drinks with Defenders
• Find her legal practice: K. Murphy Law (Wenatchee, WA)