The Human Side Of Criminal Defense With Kayla Murphy

Summary

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Barely Famous: "The Human Side Of Criminal Defense With Kayla Murphy"

Host: Kail Lowry
Guest: Kayla Murphy, Criminal Defense Attorney (K. Murphy Law, Wenatchee, WA)
Date: March 27, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Kail Lowry has an in-depth, candid conversation with Kayla Murphy, a criminal defense attorney from Washington State and dedicated listener of the podcast. The two discuss the often-misunderstood world of criminal defense: its ethical dilemmas, the realities of the courtroom, public perception, the complexities of defending people from all walks of life, and the emotional burden defense attorneys bear. Kayla’s insight exposes the personal and human side of defending clients—both guilty and innocent—exploring topics like the public defender system, the nuances of legal rights, the role of shame, and the challenges immigrants face in the justice system.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

How Kayla Became a Criminal Defense Attorney

• Origin Story ([02:06–03:58])
  • Kayla was drawn to criminal law from watching Cops and America’s Most Wanted as a kid, initially thinking she’d want to be a prosecutor.
  • “As I grew older, I just realized that people are very dynamic... most people are really capable of anything given the right circumstances. And I mean, frankly, I’ve loved most of my clients... good people who just made a mistake.” — Kayla ([03:21])
  • Finds beauty in guiding people through shame and harm.

The Realities of Becoming and Being a Lawyer

• Law School vs. Apprenticeship ([03:58–06:31])

  • Law school mainly teaches legal concepts, not practical lawyering; most useful was the Socratic method for thinking on your feet.
  • Acknowledges that state-based apprenticeship ("reading law," as Kim Kardashian is doing) can produce attorneys who are more comfortable in court.
  • "There's a better way to do it." — Kayla on apprenticeships ([05:15])

• Specializing and Bar Reciprocity ([09:16–09:48])

  • Kayla is barred in Washington but is eligible for reciprocity in other states after five years' practice.

Public Defenders vs. Private Attorneys

• Who Gets What? ([10:04–12:02])

  • Most people get a public defender only if they fall below certain poverty guidelines.
  • "I want to say it's 80% of people end up having to use... a public defender." — Kayla ([11:49])

• Quality Differences ([15:26–15:53])

  • “Some of the best criminal defense attorneys I’ve ever known have been public defenders... It’s just really based on the individual.”

Domestic Violence and Law Enforcement Dynamics

• Victims Arrested ([16:01–19:13])
  • Law enforcement often arrests the more visibly upset party, which can mean arresting the actual victim.
  • "The perpetrator can, like, turn it off and be really charming... bond with the officer... flip the script." — Kayla ([17:29])
  • Shares a case where a wrong person (the victim) was arrested while in the shower, highlighting law enforcement’s misreading of domestic dynamics.

Ethics and Strategy in Defense Work

• Defending the Guilty ([20:46–23:27])

  • The challenge: Clients who may not be truthful; an attorney can't present false testimony and may have to withdraw.
  • "Lawyering is really, like, more of an art form... people just have different styles." — Kayla ([21:59])
  • Focuses on investigating alternative narratives and issues in every case.

• Plea Deals, Sentencing, and Trial Odds ([24:03–29:50], [54:01–57:16])

  • Most criminal cases end in plea deals—about 95%.
  • Plea deals often result from fear of harsher sentences at trial or prosecutorial threats.
  • "Our criminal legal system is disturbingly like a game of poker." — Kayla ([27:15])
  • Sometimes, even innocent clients take plea deals to avoid risk.

• Jury Selection and Gender Dynamics ([30:10–35:37])

  • Voir dire ("jury questioning") is Kayla's favorite part—often comes down to "vibes."
  • Kayla prefers more men than women on a jury for female defendants, as male jurors may feel protective.

Rights, Social Perception, and Practical Advice

• Know Your Rights ([36:19–43:42])

  • Always ask for an attorney: “Just because you request an attorney right away does not mean you're guilty... You should always ask for an attorney.” — Kayla ([36:19])
  • Police are legally allowed to lie in interrogations in all states.
  • Never consent to a search; only obey legal requests for identification or license.
  • “Most people think they can talk themselves out of it. You can't.” — Kayla ([71:09])

• Taking the Stand and the Fifth Amendment ([44:56–46:42])

  • Most defense attorneys advise clients not to testify, as cross-examination is high-risk.
  • Pleading the Fifth is usually seen as incriminating.
  • "I've never won a trial where I had a client testify." — Kayla ([45:49])

• Social Media Evidence ([52:41–53:54])

  • Social media is often used as evidence; by the time a defense attorney is involved, the prosecution likely already has screenshots.
  • Deleting posts after arrest doesn’t matter—evidence is already preserved.

The Human Burden of Defense

• Shame and Punishment ([62:19–64:20])

  • Many clients feel extreme shame, which is often a punishment in itself.
  • “I just feel like a lot of being a criminal defense attorney is just bearing witness to human suffering.” — Kayla ([62:48])

• Representing the Accused ([60:38–62:19])

  • Kayla hasn't yet defended a murder charge but would; believes most clients are not “bad people,” just people who made mistakes.

Working with Immigrant and Undocumented Clients

• Barriers and Collateral Risks ([64:20–69:53])
  • Defense attorneys can and do represent undocumented immigrants.
  • Marrying criminal law and immigration issues is deeply stressful; for some clients, a conviction means deportation and grave danger.
  • Reporting crimes as an undocumented immigrant is risky and can lead to ICE involvement, even in “sanctuary” states.
  • Kayla suggests distributing “red cards” outlining immigrants' rights during police encounters.

Advice for Aspiring Lawyers and Final Thoughts

• Pursuing Law ([71:52–73:48])

  • “Bigger dummies than us have done it.” — Kayla, on the accessibility of law school ([71:52])
  • The profession needs more people who genuinely "give a fuck" and retain humility.
  • Lawyering offers the privilege of empowering people through their most vulnerable times.
  • Kayla feels it’s an honor to be trusted with someone’s freedom.

• Where to Find Kayla Murphy ([73:58])

  • Podcast: Drinks with Defenders
  • Law firm: K. Murphy Law, Wenatchee, WA

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On law school vs. real-world law practice:

  “Law school really doesn't teach you how to be a lawyer. I think it's something that you just have to learn on the job.” — Kayla ([04:13])

• On defense work’s emotional toll:

  “I just see a lot of suffering. I just feel like a lot of being a criminal defense attorney is just bearing witness to human suffering.” — Kayla ([62:48])

• On defending the guilty:

  “I just. I don't think that just because somebody did something terrible, I don't think that that needs to define them for their whole lives.” — Kayla ([19:13])

• On why people take plea deals:

  "Our criminal legal system is disturbingly like a game of poker." — Kayla ([27:15])

• On representing immigrants:

  “Suddenly doing, like, a death penalty case, theoretically... If this person gets convicted and then they're, like, deported into a dangerous situation... The collateral consequences for immigrant clients are just so substantial.” — Kayla ([64:54–65:53])

• On advice to those aspiring to law:

  “Bigger dummies than us have done it.” — Kayla ([71:52])

• On the ambiguity of outcomes and humanity:

  “We're just all capable of such harm, but also... the capacity to love and to do good.” — Kayla ([59:10])

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Key Timestamps

• [02:03] — Kayla’s introduction, law background
• [03:10] — Why criminal law?
• [05:04] — Law school vs. apprenticeship paths
• [06:31] — Kim Kardashian’s law path & public perception
• [09:16] — Bar reciprocity, multi-state practice
• [10:04] — How/when public defenders get assigned
• [15:16] — Public defenders vs. private defense attorneys
• [16:01] — Why victims sometimes get arrested
• [17:29] — The role of charm and manipulation in domestic violence arrests
• [20:46] — Handling the “guilt” question as a defense lawyer
• [24:03] — DUIs and why they’re complex cases
• [27:15] — Plea deals explained
• [30:10] — Jury selection and its psychology
• [36:19] — “Ask for an attorney right away”—debunking myths
• [40:12] — Refusing searches and the levels of suspicion
• [44:56] — Testifying, pleading the Fifth, and public perception
• [52:41] — Social media as evidence
• [54:01] — Percentage of cases that go to trial
• [60:38] — Would Kayla defend a murder charge? Emotional implications
• [62:19] — Shame as punishment
• [64:20] — Defending undocumented immigrants
• [68:41] — “Red cards” for immigrants’ rights
• [71:52] — Advice for aspiring defense lawyers
• [73:58] — Where to find Kayla Murphy (Drinks with Defenders, K. Murphy Law)

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Closing Notes & Tone

Kayla’s tone is empathetic, pragmatic, and deeply human, emphasizing that people—clients, cops, jurors—are complicated and often just doing their best under tough circumstances. Kail Lowry’s interview approach is raw, inquisitive, and open, frequently relating topics to her own experiences, her children, and public perceptions shaped by media.

The episode provides an unvarnished look at defense work, myth-busting media portrayals, and reinforcing the critical importance of rights, advocacy, and humility in the justice system.

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For more:

• Listen to Kayla’s podcast, Drinks with Defenders
• Find her legal practice: K. Murphy Law (Wenatchee, WA)

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Thank you so much for having me, Kayl. I'm a big fan.

[A]

First of all, I have to give you your flowers for how you even got here. So Kayla reached out to me in an Instagram DM and I'm basically shooting my shot everywhere, all over the place in 2026. And so I really resonated with the DM and I was like, here, Rebecca, please book her for Barely Famous. And so you are Bard in Washington and your own firm and as a criminal defense attorney. So let's talk about it. I have a lot of questions. One thing that I want to ask is about, first of all, when would people retain you as a criminal defense attorney?

[B]

Well, I have had people retain me pre charging, so when they know that an investigation is ongoing, but before, you know, a prosecutor has actually decided to move forward. So I would say you could get a defense attorney on board as soon as you suspect that you're potentially investigated, being investigated for a crime or once you're charged. I would say that's when most people get me on board.

[A]

Interesting. And what made you want to go into criminal law versus every other scope of the work?

[B]

Yeah, it's the most interesting. Okay. I grew up watching a lot of, like, Cops in America's Most Wanted with my dad.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so when I was a kid, I thought I wanted to be a prosecutor, you know, like, put the bad guys away. But, like, I'm not, you know, very, you know, strong or whatever. I'll use my brain. But I think as I grew older, I just realized that people are very dynamic. And I think that most people are really capable of anything given the right circumstances. And I mean, frankly, I. I've loved most of my clients. I think most of my clients are like, good people who just made a mistake. And I think there's something really beautiful about being able to, like, guide people through that shame and harm.

[A]

When you go to law school, is it sort of like medical school where you do rotations and clinics in the different, like, fields of medical? Or is it completely different where you kind of just get the overview of law and then you specialize after?

[B]

Basically the latter. So you'll take, you know, property, crim law, all of those basics. You typically get an opportunity to pick some classes. Like, maybe you really want to learn about environmental law or something like that. But there's not, like, clinics where you actually get to practice the work. I would say the closest thing is. Oh, gosh, I guess you could call it, like, you can kind of do like a class, like, internship type thing with like, the prosecutor's office or like, domestic violence resource organization. So you, you can kind of work with clients a little bit in that sense. But I would say, like, law school really doesn't teach you how to be a lawyer. I think it's something that you just have to learn on the job.

[A]

So do you think that the apprenticeship type of lawyers actually benefit more than people that go to law school?

[B]

They probably do. Honestly. I think just I have a little bit of, like, that boomer mentality that I'm trying to, like, get rid of. You know, it's like, well, I have to suffer, so. But it's like, no, just because you suffer doesn't mean they have to suffer, too. Like, there's a better way to do it. Like, you should do it the better way. And, like, frankly, I mean, I went to law school at the University of Oregon. Okay. And so, you know, and I practice in Washington, so it's not like you're necessarily learning the laws that you're going to be working with every day. It's, you know, overall larger, like, concepts.

[A]

Kim Kardashian gets a lot of backlash online for doing it the. The way that she's doing it, but I kind of have respect for her doing that, doing it that way, because you're just immediately sort of immersed in that, and then you're forced to. You'll have to look up the laws. So it's not like you're not going to know. I mean, thankfully, we have, you know, the world at our fingertips on our phones and through the books and through all the things. And so. And then case law, of course. And so I think it's really cool. Delaware doesn't offer that. So I know some states do and some states don't, and so we don't have that here. But I think that's kind of cool that that's even an option. I mean, I think it takes a little bit longer than law school. Do other lawyers look at lawyers that do the apprenticeship approach differently, or do they not really care, or how does that work?

[B]

So we do have that in Washington state, and I've only known one attorney who has gone through that program, and she is amazing, and I've seen her in court, and she does a really good job, and she really doesn't have, like, that same, I don't know, uneasiness. I think that I did when I first went into practice, and that's probably because she's like, you know, been on the ground and, like, actually sees how the work is done where in law school, I think a lot of people will, like, realize, oh, my gosh, I don't even actually want to be a lawyer. Like, this work is not even. You know what I mean? It's not like you're just, like, critically thinking about topics, which is a lot of what law school is. You know, just, like, concepts like, what is justice? Or. You know what I mean? Yeah. I would say the most helpful thing about law school was Also, the most painful thing, which is the Socratic method, where basically they'll just pick you at random and ask you a question about the material. And most law school classes are really big, especially your first year. And so, you know, God forbid you didn't read your, whatever, 150 pages you were supposed to read, and you get called on to, like, answer a specific question. That can be really painful. But it's good because it makes you, you know, think on your feet, which is probably the most useful skill that you can have, especially if you're in the courtroom a lot.

[A]

Right? Oh, my gosh, that's so interesting. And it's funny that you just said, you know, some people get into law and they don't even want to be lawyers. Two of my. One of my favorite producers ever from Teen mom, he was a former family attorney, and then he got into executive producing tv. He left that and went to tv. And then another producer that I'm working with right now, she also is or was an attorney. She may. They may still both be barred. But I always think that's so fascinating because I'm like, why? Like, I don't get it. And then I always tell my. My regular entertainment attorney I want to be a lawyer. And she's like, yeah, do copyright or trademark or entertainment law. Because it's not like family law where nobody wins.

[B]

Hate family law.

[A]

Yeah, I would imagine.

[B]

Oh, my go, gosh. I would take a criminal case any day over a family law case. I, like, dipped my toes into it a little bit, but people are so petty, and it's so annoying. And I think it's like, once you have been on the ground trying to get people out of jail, trying to save them from years in prison, it's like, am I really gonna work this hard for this stupid bullshit? You know what I mean? Fighting over a garage door opener. What is this? But, I mean, you'd be surprised.

[A]

I mean, frivolous filings don't. I mean, you could file something for frivolous filings, but then it doesn't really do much. So I don't know. Okay. And so we briefly talked about it before we started recording, but you are barred in the state of Washington. But could you, in theory, go be barred in other states as well?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And would you ever do that?

[B]

Totally. I've been practicing for over five years now, and I think that that's the mark for most states where you can try to get. Gosh, what's it called? Like, reciprocity. Yes. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Oh, that's really cool. We have some questions about domestic violence, if you're okay answering that. Yeah, absolutely. What typically happens when police respond to a domestic violence call? Do you immediately get a call? Are you immediately involved as. Not you specifically, but are criminal defense attorneys immediately involved?

[B]

No, no. Typically the police will arrest somebody. And we'll get into that. I think a little bit more about how sometimes they don't arrest the right person, but then they get booked into jail, they go in front of the judge, and then they either get assigned a public defender or told they don't qualify for a public defender. And then if they didn't qualify, that's when they would be looking for a private attorney and I would probably come on board.

[A]

What would. What would disqualify someone from a public

[B]

defender making too much money? You have to be like, a certain percentage under the poverty guidelines in order to qualify.

[A]

So when they arrest somebody and they say, you know, if you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed to you. That only applies if you can't. What if you're like, in between in that threshold? That's like. It's the same way for, like, welfare benefits. Like, you're in that threshold. I have a friend, she's a single parent of four kids. She gets no child support. She does not make the threshold. Like, she's just over it just a little bit for, like, welfare benefits. It's the same thing for. I did not realize that. I thought it was across the board. Like, if you opted to not have a private attorney, you got a public defender.

[B]

No, no. I mean, you fought. You fill out a financial. At least in the court where I work, you fill out a financial affidavit that the judge looks over and, you know, you put in your expenses and everything. But again, it's just like a certain percentage under the poverty guidelines. So, like, probably, probably not.

[A]

That is so fascinating. I always wondered so. Because you see cases like mainstream media have, you know, cover cases for things like that, and they talk about public defenders. I think Brian Coburger had a public defender.

[B]

I think so at first.

[A]

Or maybe he does now.

[B]

Gosh. I want to say I heard a statistic recently where I want to say it's 80% of people end up having to use or to use the services of a public defender.

[A]

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[A]

Do you think public defenders fight for their clients in the same capacity that a private attorney would fight for them? Because it is a public defender versus private.

[B]

Honestly, some of the best criminal defense attorneys I've ever known have been public defenders. And some attorneys who maybe I wouldn't personally want to represent me or private attorneys. I think it's just really based on the individual.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I think a lot of people go into public defense because they really have a passion for, you know, helping people through our very messed up criminal legal system.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And particularly, like, fighting for the rights of people who are suffering from poverty in addition to, you know, getting targeted by the system.

[A]

Right. Why are victims sometimes arrested along with the alleged aggressor in criminal arrest?

[B]

Typically in domestic violence cases, just one party will be arrested.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I have definitely seen multiple cases where it's actually the person who has been like, chronically abused throughout the relationship be the one who is arrested by law enforcement.

[A]

Yeah. Why is that?

[B]

I think it's because when you are. So I've been doing a deep dive on domestic violence lately. Just, I see it so much in my. My case, personal cases, and this dynamic play out over and over again. And I just wanted to learn more. And I recently read this book. I. It's called why Does he do that? He talks about how domestic violence is not a control problem. It's not like you can't control yourself. It's more an attitudes and beliefs problem. And the way that I think this is really illustrated in real life is, you know, picturing, you know, some kind of altercation going on, somebody being harmed, and then the police get called and, you know, really understanding that it's not a lack of control problem, but an attitudes of beliefs problem. You can see that the. The perpetrator can, like, turn it off and be really charming.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And just, like, bond with the officer and, you know, this crazy being here, you know, she just. What? You know what I mean? Like.

[A]

Yeah. So they like, flip the script almost exactly. So what does that look like for the criminal defense attorney then? Because are you hired, you know, for the victim, or do you end up getting hired by the perpetrator.

[B]

So that's what's so interesting.

[A]

And how do you prevent your own self from being charmed? Because I'll tell you what, my ex would have charmed you through and through, and you would have believed him and said, kale's crazy.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, that is something I see a lot with my. The. The people who are, I believe, like, probably did actually. You know what I mean, domestically abuse their partner. They are typically very charming. And my husband's a criminal defense attorney, too. And, gosh, he said something to me, like, you can tell by, like, who's trying to get you to like them. Like. Like, that's kind of a red flag, like, if. If they're trying to kind of, like, charm you. Gosh, I will never forget this one case where my client, who is, you know, the defendant, but she was actually, you know what I mean, the victim, she was arrested, like, in the shower. Like, they had gotten into whatever, some, you know, altercation.

[A]

Did they let her put her clothes on.

[B]

It was really. It was so disturbing. I guess what I should say is, like, the officer contacted her when she was, like, you know, naked in the shower. But I think, like, after, you know, they were, like, gonna bring her to jail. They let her put something on.

[A]

They arrested her in the shower.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, they put handcuffs on her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was worried for a second because I'd be suing everybody.

[B]

I mean, but just to, like, be victimized and have the cops come into your house and accost you in the shower and then, like, arrest you later, you know, it's. Yeah, I've seen it play out so many times, and it's very depressing. And as far as, like, your question about, like, well, you know, what's that, like, as far as, like, for a criminal defense attorney, I don't know if you ever read Just Mercy by Bryan Stevenson. Highly recommend. He was a criminal defense attorney, and he defended people, like, on death row and stuff. And his, I guess, philosophy is just, like, you know, we're all guilty. You know what I mean? Like, I. I just. I don't think that just because somebody did something terrible, I don't think that that needs to define them for their whole lives. I certainly wouldn't want, like, my worst decisions to define me forever. And I don't know, it's just. It's just so weird, like, thinking about crime, like, from the outside. It's just like, why are people making such bad decisions and hurting each other? But it's like, you know, when you're Actually, like, on the ground, and you talk to people. It's like we're all just people and we're all doing our best and usually failing miserably. And not all of us have the same, I don't know, like, ability, I guess, to, I don't know, make all the right choices sometimes.

[A]

How do you handle, I guess, in any form, like any type of case for criminal law, if someone comes to you, they retain you and you're like, you know, they're, they're guilty, but they're denying it. And you can't ask them for the truth because then you know the truth. And so then, do you know what I'm saying? So, like, for example, P. Diddy, P. Diddy, R. Kelly, O.J. simpson, these high profile cases where they're, they're denying their involvement, but you know in your heart of hearts that they're guilty. But now you can only create a defense based on what they've told you. How do you handle that? Do you replay it in your heads? Do you not take those cases? Do you, you know, do you know what I mean?

[B]

I totally do. I have helped people who have been accused of doing really bad things. And frankly, I think, like, probably a lot of the time people are maybe technically or legally guilty of what they were charged with.

[A]

But do you think, like, the factors that are part of why they committed the crime will help you create the, like, how? I guess so.

[B]

That's a really good question. And actually it's something that I've been trying to kind of figure out how to navigate. I think that lawyering is really like more of an art form, I guess, than like a science. Like, people just have different styles. And I don't know, like, again, my husband, I think he's more of like the, okay, tell me what happened. Like, you could, you know what I mean? And he really feels like, okay, I need, like, all of the information so that I can, you know, craft the best defense. I kind of think I really love trial. And so I'm always kind of thinking about, like, okay, well, how would this, like, play out at trial? And so honestly, I, I usually, like, if a client really just wants to, like, tell me everything, I'm like, okay, like, you know, you can let me hear it, but I will tell you, like, let's say we end up going to trial and you decide to testify, and on the stand you say something different than what you told me. And I know lying. It's like, then that puts me in a real ethical quandary where I Can't knowingly present false evidence to the court. And so then I would be, like, ethically obligated to withdraw. But then it's like the judge obviously can read between the lines and you know what I mean, kind of knows what happens. So I really, like, try to avoid that. What I love about criminal defense is that you can be really creative. Like, it's like, like, what possible alternative scenario could these facts point to?

[A]

Right.

[B]

And actually there usually is. You know what I mean? Like, there are issues. If you can just. That's what I spend the most of. I would say I spend the most of my time thinking about, like, preparing for trial is like, you know, what. What other narratives are here. And I think that there's always like, a story under the story that you can find if you dig deep enough. Totally.

[A]

And when you say that you are or say you are a criminal defense attorney. Criminal defense for white collar crimes or just violent crimes or all of the above.

[B]

So I would say, like my bread and butter. DUIs.

[A]

DUIs.

[B]

I love DUIs. I mean,

[A]

of course you hate them, but. But why? Why DUIs?

[B]

They're so complicated. Like, there's so many mistakes that cops can make during their investigation. Like, did they administer the field sobriety test properly? You know, were there any issues with the breath machine? I've just like. So even if on its face, a DUI looks pretty, like, cut and dry. Exactly. Like, I love them because you can always just like, dig into it deep enough to where you can always find, like, some issue or some mistake. And I think I told you earlier, like, most cases end in a plea deal. So usually you're just trying to, like, find any kind of legal or factual issue that you can to throw at the prosecutor to try to, like, you know, get your client the best resolution.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so, yeah, fascinating that DUIs are more complicated than you than we all thought.

[B]

I know. That's crazy.

[A]

Barely Famous podcast is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice. Progressive loves to help people make smart choices. That's why they offer a tool called Auto Quote Explorer that allows you to compare your progressive car insurance quote with rates from other companies so you save time on research and can enjoy savings when you choose the best rate for you. Give it a try after this [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. This episode is brought to you by Pocket Hose, the world's number one expandable hose. I'm obsessed with pocket hose. Old fashioned hoses get kinks and creases in the spigot and we don't have that problem because the Copperhead's pocket pivot swivels 360 degrees for full water flow and freedom to water with ease around your home. I'll post a video up on the barely famous stories because we've already hooked it up. We're ready for spring. And when you're all done, this rustproof anti burst hose shrinks back down to pocket size for the effortless holding and tidy storage, which I need because the last thing I need is my kids to be riding around on their bikes in the driveway and trip over a hose. Plus it's super light and ultra durable pocket hose Copperhead is backed with a 10 year warranty and the brand new pocket hose Copperhead with pocket Pivot is a total game game changer. And for a limited time my listeners can get a free Pocket Pivot and their 10 pattern sprayer with the purchase of any size Copperhead hose. Just text famous to 64,000. That's famous to 64,000 for your two free gifts with purchase famous to 64,000. Message and data rates may apply. See Terms for details. When people are taking plea deals, why would someone take a plea deal even if they maybe didn't do it? Or maybe, you know, the prosecution has painted this story with the evidence to look a certain way, but that is in fact not how it's how it happened and the defendant is will say innocent or it happened in a different way. Why would someone take a plea deal versus fighting for like I know the answer to this is like you want to go to trial, you don't want to risk it, right? Like your maybe your lawyer is telling you you don't want to risk this case. Why would they take a plea deal versus not taking a plea deal?

[B]

Honestly, our criminal legal system is disturbingly like a game of poker. And I would say that the prosecution usually wants like some pound of flesh, so to speak. So let's say you have a really stupid case and your clients like, you know, I, you know I didn't do this. I, this is, you know what I mean? And the prosecutor is like, well you know, I'm not going to dismiss it. You're going to have to take it to trial or take a deal. Like so just to give you an example here, I'll just use DUIs for as an example. Anytime you plead guilty to a crime or found guilty of committing a crime after a trial the judge will hear sentencing recommendations to the prosecutor, recommendations from the defense, and then ultimately it's up to the judge. And DUIs are gross misdemeanors, which means that technically the maximum penalty is up to 364 days and a $5,000 fine. Now, I have never seen anybody sentenced anywhere near that. And in fact, in Washington state, we have mandatory minimums for DUIs, which are essentially laws that our state has passed which tie the judge's hands when it comes to sentencing. So they say, okay, judge, you know, based on these factors, like, let's say this is the, this person's first dui, their blood alcohol level wasn't super high. The mandatory minimum would be one day in jail and a $990.50 fine. So the judge wouldn't be able to go below that. He could go above.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And so with plea deals and negotiations, it's like, basically it's a, it's kind of a two parter. So like one, you may want to try to get the prosecutor to amend it to a lesser charge that, that doesn't have the same max. And then also you may want to get them on board with the sentence. Right? Like, let's do an agreed Recommendation for whatever, 8 hours community service or something. If you were to go to trial and lose, the prosecutor would be much more likely to ask for a harsher sentence than if you had wheeled and dealed. Because again, the judge, you know, here's recommendations, prosecutor recommendations from us, and then it's up to him. And so not that this is a hard and fast rule, I have had a case where I lost, but the person ended up getting a lesser jail sentence than the plea offer was for.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

But I would say, like, most of the time, that's why people are worried about it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then sometimes prosecutors can be a little bit vindictive and like, threaten to, you know, add charges or, you know, stuff like that.

[A]

What about going to trial and having a jury? Does that ever happen in criminal defense that you've worked on? And how do you handle, like, picking the jury?

[B]

It's my favorite part.

[A]

I always wanted to do jury duty, but I've never been picked. So how does that process work with trial and you, you know, wanting to see a very specific jury?

[B]

Totally. That's a great question. And it's. I love trial. It's my favorite part of the job. And honestly, voir is probably my favorite part of trial. I feel like a talk host. You know what I mean? Like, and yeah, I mean There are, like, red flags. I get, I mean, from a defense attorney, red flags that I will. I mean it. Sorry, I'm all over the place.

[A]

No, same.

[B]

It's a lot of work. There's a lot of people, and there's a lot of. A lot to keep track of. And so I have a bit of a system. Like, they'll have these questionnaires that they fill out beforehand. And so if anybody, like, has any law enforcement background or like, maybe they're, you know, married to a cop or their dad's a cop or something like, like, I'll put a C by their name. You know, that's kind of a red flag. Like, I don't know if I really, you know, want people who are always going to believe that law enforcement's telling the truth no matter what, or just like, you know, just believe that their judgment is sound. You know what I mean? Like, we were talking about the domestic violence cases and sometimes the victims getting arrested. So I would, I look for that. And then I also look for any jurors who have had experiences with, with a similar type of crime, you know, like, if they've been victimized or otherwise involved. And I would say I usually don't want them on the jury either. But honestly, at the end of the day, I feel like it's vibes.

[A]

It's vibes. But I guess I was curious too, because, like, I've seen shows, right? And even in real life, when we're following high profile cases, why would there ever be more women than men? Shouldn't it always be 50? 50?

[B]

So they have to have a jury pool made up of members of your community. But so what happens? So picture just like a whole bunch of people in a courtroom, and there are some people sitting up in the jury box, and then there are some people, like, down on the pews in district court. We only need six people. And so basically you are looking through the questionnaires of all of those people and kind of like asking questions to the group, you know, and talking to the group. Like a talk show host, right? Like, you know, so do we think that just because somebody was charged with a crime, that means they're guilty of the crime? Like, what about you, you know, potential juror number 12, what do you think? Right. And so basically what will happen is each side will do their thing, and as we go, we'll like, cross off people until there are only six left. And it's, it's random, so each juror will get a number. And so, you know, if it Just so happens that they're like, you know, whatever, 12 men, and they're the first, you know, numbers one through 12. It's kind of difficult to explain. So if there are, like, 40 people. Right. It's like. And we're like, okay, well, I don't like number two. So he goes down. Right. So now we just have number one and number three. Right. And it goes down until you get to the six that you agree on. And so I would say it's just the luck of the draw as far as, like, how. You know what I mean? Like, how close to the top of the jury list you are.

[A]

But wouldn't you feel like that's not really fair? Like, it should be 50, 50 if there's an even number based on whatever crime it is, or, you know, I would want more women on mine than men, because I would want that. I feel like they would have more empathy or they maybe would see themselves in parts of my case or where men are. So they compartmental. Compartmentalize so much more than women. I think in general, men see things. Men in my life have seen things very black and white where women, I feel like, have more of. They can see multiple perspectives. And so I don't necessarily know that I agree that an A jury that's not 50, 50 in terms of sex is fair.

[B]

Here's what I'll say, though. Like, if you were my client and we were going to trial together, I would. Would probably want more men.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. Why?

[A]

Tell me why.

[B]

Because I think. And again, this is just generally speaking, but I think that sometimes male jurors will want to, like, protect a female defendant.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Especially, like, if they're the ones who were, like, accused of domestic violence against a man, for example. So it's really interesting. And I think women can be really hard on other women.

[A]

I've experienced both. I have three judges in top of mind. Two women, one man. And I will say one of the women and one of the men were very. They could see all perspectives. And then the third judge, who was also a woman, was very hard on me. And I found that really interesting because of the facts presented. Not, I'm not talking about, like, you know, my testimony, but the literal evidence and facts in the case. I was very surprised by that.

[B]

It's so weird.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I. Again, just. Domestic violence is on my mind right now, but I'm just thinking about, like, some of the cops who have, like, made these kind of poor arrest decisions, and they'll be like, women cops, like, more often than you would think. And so I don't know what it is, if we're just more cynical of each other or what.

[A]

That's fascinating in terms of rights people don't realize they have. Here's the thing I have. All my kids are black and brown, right. So I semi regularly have conversations with them about arrests and cops and things like that. Because just based on their skin color and also their last names, like, I want them to protect themselves and I worry about them being targeted and things like that. And so I always tell them, like, do not speak. Like, ask for an attorney right away. Ask to call your mom. Ask to call an attorney. Do not say anything. And I just want to speak to that really quickly. Just because you request an attorney right away does not mean that you're guilty. Is that true?

[B]

Absolutely. You should always ask for an attorney. I mean, listen, there are definitely a lot of really great cops and frankly, even some really good cops will use the method I'm about to talk about. But straight up, cops can lie to you, right?

[A]

In all states.

[B]

I have never heard of a state where a cop cannot lie to you. So I'm. Yeah, I mean, it's an investigative tool. Exactly right. And especially with kids or like young adults. Like how, how are you supposed to know that a cop can lie to you and that you're not supposed to trust or I guess it's tough, right, because it's like we want to trust law enforcement and like I, you know, I certainly, like my house is being broken into or something, like I want the cops to come and prot me. But it's, it's just it like a weird juxtaposition when you kind of need to think about like protecting yourself from getting involved in the legal system when you know that you're, you know, you could be targeted. So I think that that's really good advice that you are giving your kids. I would tell my kids the same thing if I had any. Tell my dogs. Yeah, don't, don't talk to the police. They can lie to you. And you can't just say like, oh, you know, I might want an attorney or I'm not sure if I want to talk. You have to like explain exactly like I am asking for an attorney. Like, I want an attorney. I'm not going to talk to you. And so that's another thing because if you are, you know, kind of wishy washy about it or you like, don't say it straight up, they can keep messing with you.

[A]

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[B]

That would probably depend on the state and the circumstances. So like, like in Washington state we have legal marijuana, right? So just a cop, like smelling marijuana in your vehicle is probably not going to be sufficient.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But you know, maybe in one of these southern states it's like maybe that does get them there. Basically, in order for police to like get to the next step, they have to meet certain thresholds. So like if they want to investigate you for a crime, they have to have reasonable suspicion, okay? And this is just for a brief detention and investigation. And so, so picture like a ladder, right? So first step, reasonable suspicion. If they just want to investigate you now, it's just the first step, right? So now not. Not a whole lot of evidence is needed, but it's, it's more than nothing. And there are certain rules about, like, what is sufficient and what isn't. Like, cops can't rely solely on innocuous facts to justify an investigation. And innocuous facts are facts which could have, like, an innocent explanation just as easily as they could have a potential, like, criminal explanation. You know what I mean? Like, like, gosh, I'm trying to just

[A]

think, like, so if someone's speeding and then they also smell like weed, is that sufficient for them to.

[B]

I mean, I will say, like. Like, whether it's legally sufficient, like, for us to, like, be able to fight it later is kind of a different situation than if they're going to try to argue that it's sufficient on the ground, like, usually that they'll. They'll do their thing. You know what I mean? They'll use whatever facts, innocuous or not. And it's like on the back end when we're, like, fighting the case later, where it's like, these facts were not sufficient to get you where you need to go, okay? But I mean, frankly, I feel like if they wanna get you for something, like, they will find a way to justify it most of the time, okay?

[A]

Because I always, especially with my oldest is driving now, so I'm like, if he's speeding for something now, it's. We're gonna come up with, why. Why would we be wanting to search him? Do you know what I'm saying? So it's just interesting.

[B]

The cop can, you know, internally reason that they've met that threshold in order to search your car. So I would say, like, if it was me personally, I would say, like, I'm not going to voluntarily consent to any kind of search. And then, you know, insofar as they have some kind of, like, legal ability to do that, then it's like, like, you know, it's not with your consent. So, like, you know, you have to either, like, have a warrant or some kind of, like, exception to the warrant requirement.

[A]

Do they have to state that they have reasonable suspicion? Or how would. For example, if my oldest son got pulled over and they decided they wanted to search, and they say, can we search your vehicle? Can he just say no? If they ask.

[B]

But, I mean, I would. I would say I'm not going to. I'm not consenting to that, just so

[A]

I know what to do.

[B]

And then they might, like, still do it because maybe they think they've met, you know, some kind of legal threshold or have some kind of exception to the warrant requirement, but that, you know, you're protecting yourself later on by not giving consent because you're giving your attorney the ability to, like, fight the legal standard that the cops tried to say the facts met. You know what I mean?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Whereas, like, if you had consented, it's like, well. And they find stuff in your car, it's like, well, what am I supposed to do, man? You consented to the search. But it's like, if they did an illegal search because, you know what I mean, they just smelled marijuana or something, and we know that's not sufficient, we can fight it later.

[A]

Okay, that makes sense. I. I always try to tell my kids, but I never really know when. Like, do they just get pulled over and say, I want an attorney, Like. Or do you wait until they ask questions and things like that? But you do need to give your,

[B]

like, identification and license. Of course.

[A]

Okay, so if someone is pulled over and the cop thinks that they have sufficient reason to search the vehicle, would you suggest that a person is honest with the cop, or do you suggest that the cop searches and lets them find what. Whatever they're going to find?

[B]

Personally, I would not volunteer any information, and I think that that gives your attorney the most leverage to. Where, if they both find something in your car and you've already admitted that you both know that thing is there and that it belongs to you, that puts you, you know, your attorney in more of a tight corner where it's like, you didn't say anything like, okay, well, was that your brother's? You know what I mean?

[A]

Right, right, right, right. Okay, that makes sense. And when someone say some. Some case makes. Makes. Makes it to trial and they're on the witness stand, you have a witness on the witness stand, does it automatically make someone look guilty when they invoke their fifth Amendment?

[B]

I would say most of the time. And like, most of the other defense attorneys I've talked to will say to not have your client testify.

[A]

Yeah, I. Why is that? Because you don't want them to surprise you on the witness stand or what?

[B]

Honestly? I mean, well, just like, how it's called top, you know, police officer's job to, like, get information from people. Right. It's like, attorneys, we Are really good at, you know, trying to get people, you know, confused, turn them around, say something that's gonna, you know, help our case and hurt. Hurt their case. And so I think that it's protective, frankly.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

That being said, I. I understand, like, how kind of outside the system people are like, well, if you didn't do it, go up there and tell me that you didn't do it. You know, But. But, yeah, it's just a. I'll tell you. I've never won a trial where I had a client testify, is what I'll say.

[A]

And have you ever had a client testify and say, I plead the fifth?

[B]

No.

[A]

Does that help or hurt a case?

[B]

I would say it would. It would hurt. Because you're saying that, like, I'm not answering this question because I'm, you know, afraid of potential, like, criminal liability.

[A]

So essentially, that makes you look guilty.

[B]

I would say so.

[A]

But that's weird to me because the same people who very well may be innocent and they immediately ask for an attorney. Because that's what I would do. Immediately ask for an attorney. That can also be seen by the court of public opinion, of course. Oh, they're.

[B]

Yes, right.

[A]

So it's so interesting to me because it's like, okay, ask for an attorney right away, but then don't ever plead the fifth. Right. So you could be innocent and asking for an attorney, but you could also be innocent or guilty and plead the fifth. But that makes you look guilty and asking for. For. Do you get what I'm saying? Like, it all kind of feels like you're damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[B]

And I mean, frankly, like, our criminal legal system is not there, and it's very punitive. And frankly, like, most of the time, the state, you know what I mean? They have more resources to prosecute people, and you're just, like, up against this, like, behemoth with all of these resources. And I know. Don't. Would. I mean, I really just feel like the best thing you can do is to just, like, invoke as many rights as you can to protect yourself on the back end when it actually matters. Like, with resolving the case, I don't think you should worry about, like, oh, is the cop gonna think I'm guilty if I. You know what I mean? Or, like, what is the cop going to think? Like, I don't think we should care. I think, like, as far as you know, you definitely want to make sure that it's, like, a safe encounter and you're complying with you Know, giving them your. Your information and, like, being polite. But as far as. Yeah. Searches or admitting to anything, I definitely, definitely don't do that. Like, what might seem incriminating from, like, the public's perspective is actually going to probably help you get a better outcome in the actual criminal case by, like, keeping your mouth shut, getting an attorney right away, and not. Not probably. I mean, you know, it all really depends. Maybe sometimes, like, it would be better to. To testify, but I'm just, like, generally speaking, I think attorneys are usually pretty aware that, like, the prosecutor is gonna. You know.

[A]

Exactly. I always worry about that, though, because I have lived so long in some level of a spotlight that I. My first thought. Thought every single day, every conversation I have, every. When I go out in public is, how will this be perceived? And that's like. Honestly, it's like ptsd. Like, I would argue that it's kind of similar to that because I have been conditioned this way for so long. How will this be perceived? Even though I know that it happened this way, it's going to be shown this way. And so how will this be perceived? And so that's gotten. Actually, it has hurt me to think that way as well, because I'll be on the defense right off ramp, and then it doesn't get perceived. Well, I'm already thinking five steps ahead about how it will. How it will be perceived.

[B]

That's so interesting to me because, like, you are very authentic. I feel like. I feel like you.

[A]

I try to be.

[B]

I mean, I. I really feel like I know you for, like, I don't know, but. So that's. That's interesting. Do you feel like that constant sense of, like, being watched or, like, having to self edit makes it difficult for you to, like, be yourself?

[A]

Well, in some ways, I think it makes me more myself because I'll call myself out before anyone else can. So I'm scared for things to come out in a way that I don't have control over. So I'll get on Tik Tok and talk about how I myself. Nobody in public is about to get on Tik Tok and talk about how Kale herself in public. And they saw it because I already said it. You're not about to embarrass me. So that's kind of like my thought.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

No, but, like, that's kind of how I think is, like, if I am more authentic, nobody can. It's kind of like Eminem and 8 Mile where he's, like, rapping about all the things that are awful about how he grew up. Right. Because you're not about to clown me for that. I'm going to call myself out before anyone else does. And so in some ways I think it's made me more authentic and relatable because other people are going through it too. But nobody on Tick Tock is going to be able to get up on, in front of a screen and say something. But it's, it's definitely a weird. And so anytime I've seen a mainstream criminal case, Casey Anthony, Jody Arias, any of them before I was on, you know, I was only on TV for a short time and I would see cases like that, I would be like, oh my God, why would they ask for an attorney right away that makes them look guilty? And now after more years in the spotlight and sort of, of kind of educating myself and seeing how it affects me, the first thing I'm going to do is ask for an attorney whether I'm guilty or innocent. And so it's really interesting how the perspective can flip.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

You know, I, it's weird and I, I always tell my kids, I'm like, if you, if anyone asks you or tries to interrogate you or whatever, just ask for an attorney. Just ask.

[B]

Good advice.

[A]

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[B]

People are so silly. They will just like do crime online, live stream it. They'll. I mean, it's just, yeah, definitely. Kids don't do crimes and post it on social media.

[A]

So have you ever had a client that maybe has something semi incriminating on their social media and they're like, okay, we need to go delete this, but then it's too late?

[B]

No, I would say that by the time it gets to me, it's like the prosecutor has already, you know, gotten any evidence that they need.

[A]

Yeah, well, I mean, you can always use the IP address as well.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

Is deleting social media content after an arrest considered obstruction?

[B]

I mean, again, like, my assumption would be that they would already have all of that evidence, like, ready to go. And so I. I don't know. I doubt it, though. Yeah, right. Because it's like it's your own social media page, so you can probably. You know what I mean? You can post and delete as you choose, but like, if you posted something that they're going to be using for evidence, that then, yeah, I'm sure they already have the screenshot and all of the information that they need. So I think by the time that you're being prosecuted, it doesn't really matter.

[A]

Okay. Oh, how often do criminal cases typically go to trial? And can you ever suggest that it go to trial?

[B]

Oh, not very often.

[A]

Not very often, no.

[B]

Ultimately, the decision is up to your client as far as how they decide, decide to resolve the case or if they want to take it to trial. While something I tell my clients a lot is like, you can think of me like a gps, you know what I mean? You're driving this car. I'm just like telling you directions on how to get to different places. And so, yeah, I want to say it's like 95 of cases that end up in plea deals.

[A]

So is that why so many of them make mainstream media? Because, like, these crazy cases, you know? Well, I'm trying to think of there, the one that Lindsay and I just talked about the cult in Apalachi with the shootings and things like that. Like those big, big. Like. Is that why they get such big coverage?

[B]

I mean, frankly. I mean, I'm just thinking of, like, where I'm from, and there have been, like, some, you know, terrible crimes that have gotten, like, local news coverage, but not, like, internationally. I think that some cases just really catch, like, the national attention. But that's not to say that, like, terrible grisly crimes don't happen other places and that those cases don't go to trial. I kind of think that with those more serious cases, it's probably like, well, what do we have to lose at at this point? You know what I mean? Why not just roll the dice? Because maybe the prosecutor, you know, makes a mistake in trial and, you know, they don't present or they don't, you know, establish all of the elements of the crime. I think that there are just like, really kind of easy mistakes that you could make in a trial that could really help. Like, let's say the prosecutor has finished presenting their case, but they never actually presented any evidence that it happened, you know, on such and such date or in such and such case place. You could, you know, try to ask for a motion to, like, dismiss the case because the prosecutor didn't actually, you know what I mean, meet all of the elements of the crime. I don't know. Trials can really. They can surprise you. You can go in thinking it's a really bad case, but it's like, oh, my gosh. Well, actually, the prosecutor's not doing super well today, and you know what I mean, my witness did a really good job. So, yeah, definitely. When there are really serious charges, I think it makes sense, like, if you can get a deal that is fair to just shoot your shot.

[A]

So have you ever recommended a client take it all the way to trial?

[B]

So, yeah, with recommendations. I think I mentioned to you earlier, it's kind of weird being an attorney because you just know that, like, the way you're explaining things to your client will kind of like, push them one way or another. I really try to empower people to just. With all of the education that I can so that they can make the best decision for themselves and, like, feel confident in that decision. Like, you know, if you decide to go to trial, like, I'm not, you know, like, I'm not tripping. Like, that sounds great to me. Cool. There are some attorneys who really hate trial. You know what I mean? And I think you can just kind of be like, well, it's like it's a really big risk. You know, the prosecutor could recommend a lot more. So I mean, I wouldn't say I necessarily. Like, I never like, tell my clients what to do, but if it's a very like triable case, you know what I mean? I'll be like, you know, like, maybe take your chances. Yeah. I'm like, listen, I can never make any guarantees, but like, like these are,

[A]

this is what we're looking at.

[B]

Kind of, you know, one worst case. Why not?

[A]

I definitely for I. It's very different for entertainment law, but she will be pretty straight up with me about, you know, I think you have a good case or maybe we shouldn't push this, you know what I mean? And so I, I can always appreciate that because, you know, so many attorneys could be like, no, like we should do it. And then they're getting all the litigation hours that are billable, you know what I mean? So totally there are certain lawyers and attorneys that I'm sure would, would do it for the hourly, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I mean, I don't know if I would. I feel like I would like to be in, in the courtroom. So I would be like wanting to litigate everything.

[B]

Yeah. I do flat fees. I do flat fees for all pretrial representation. So yeah, I am not into like keeping track of my hours and like, you know what I mean?

[A]

Billing people, like that was an option?

[B]

Yes. For criminal cases. I think it's pretty common at least where I practice.

[A]

So what do you mean by just like a flat rate? What do you mean? So it's not like retainer and then you're billing for $650 an hour. $850 an hour.

[B]

Right. So like, let's say, gosh, I usually charge three grand for a first time dui.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And so that would cover all pretrial representation. So like all of the hearings, meetings, negotiations, etc. If we actually went to trial and like, I, you know, whatever, it was going to be a lot of work and I felt the need to charge a trial fee. It wouldn't be more than like $500 because I never want like money to be a reason why somebody. Exactly. Doesn't exactly.

[A]

Wow, that's so nice of you though. No, it really is. Because there are so many people that will just take charges that maybe they shouldn't have because they don't have the funds to fight for themselves or maybe, you know, they're being painted in a darker light than, than their participation actually was. That's so Interesting. What do you think television shows like Law and Order get wrong about criminal defense?

[B]

Well, I think that there's definitely, like, mundane aspects, but from having kind of dipped my toes into other types of law, like, I. Like, I tried civil for a second, you know, I told you. I kind of tried family law for a minute. But criminal law really is just interesting. And I just really love humanity. I just think people are so interesting. Like, we just contain multitudes, and we're just all capable of such harm, but also, like, just have the capacity to love and to do good. And so I. I'm not answering your question. I guess what I'm saying is, like, it's actually really interesting. Criminal. Criminal law is really interesting. Probably not quite, like, as, you know, sexy and cool as Law and Order, but, I mean, I. I do kind of feel like I'm in Law and Order sometimes when I'm in trial, you

[A]

know, or, like, suits. Did you ever watch Suits?

[B]

You know, I just had somebody tell me that I reminded them of a lawyer. Lawyer in suits. And I'm like, that's the nicest thing anybody ever said.

[A]

Do you know which one he.

[B]

He didn't say. He was like, you seem like a lawyer that would be on that show.

[A]

Oh, my God. That was. I. That show had me in a chokehold.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Had me in a freaking chokehold. And I love suits so much, and I know it's so far from the truth, but, like, it's so entertaining. So fun, so entertaining. How do you separate or, like, compartmentalize, like, the cases that you're involved with or that you choose to take on, especially if it's not like, a dui, maybe. Have you ever recommended represented someone who was charged with murder?

[B]

I have not.

[A]

Would you take on someone that was charged with murder?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You would. Do you think that you would be able to separate it and not take it home with you?

[B]

Probably not.

[A]

Same.

[B]

Yeah, probably not.

[A]

Crying. I'm such a cry. I'd probably cry in front of the judge, actually.

[B]

Listen, I mean, honestly, I. Again, I really just feel like we're all capable of really bad things. And I think that every. Like, most of my clients, I believe at their heart, are, like, good people. And I. I think I've only met maybe, like, a handful of people who are, like. You might kind of be a little bit evil and scary. Yeah. But out of, you know, all the years I've been doing this, like, going on six years, it's like, yeah, most people are just doing their best or they made a mistake. My Husband, he helped out with a murder trial not too long ago. And frankly, like, it's just so weird. Like, I. I still feel like DUIs, like, are so complicated. I'm like, wouldn't murder be more complicated? I don't know. I'm like, you don't have to check all the field sobriety tests. Like, I don't know. Um, but I don't know, like, morally, I guess, like, I don't. I don't have any issue, like, representing people who have done bad things, because, again, I just. Just humans, man. Just humans doing human stuff, doing our best. And frankly, like, I would say probably most of my clients feel, like, so embarrassed and, like, hate themselves and feel so much shame about what they're charged with.

[A]

Do you think that in some cases that's punishment enough?

[B]

I don't do. I really do. And I don't think that, like, the punishments that we divvy out, like, really make the situation better. It's, like, cool. So now this person has to pay a bunch of money and, you know, maybe lose their job because they have to, you know, miss work for a week or, like, what about their kids? Or. You know what I mean? So it's just. I just see a lot of suffering. I just feel like a lot of being a criminal defense attorney is just bearing witness to human suffering. Suffering.

[A]

I recently listened to a book about a woman who went to prison for. It's fiction. I believe it's fiction. It's not based on a true story or anything. And the main character went to prison for a car accident where she killed somebody. And so. And in the book, she talks about how hard it was. I mean, one. It just took a toll on her mentally. She didn't feel worthy of anything moving forward after that in her life. And the book sort of follows. Follows her journey when she gets out of prison and sort of all of the things that she faces and her. Her inside thoughts about, you know, am I even worthy enough? And, you know, things like that. And so I think sometimes that is. That is the punishment, because no amount of jail time can cause someone to have that sort of guilty conscience or shame for their crime. And it doesn't matter if they're in prison for a year, two years, five years, they're going to live with that regardless, for the rest of their lives. And that is enough for them to be torn up. Not the jail time. Like, the jail time essentially at that point is kind of a moot point. And I'm not saying all cases are that way, but just Based on the books that I've read or shows that I've seen, I'm like, okay, maybe. Maybe that wasn't the best option, is jail time.

[B]

Absolutely. And frankly, like, I think shame is the worst emotion. Like, it's just. It's the worst. I attribute so much suffering to shame.

[A]

It's not regret. They're different.

[B]

Exactly. Shame is like, I'm bad. I'm a bad person. Not like, I feel bad about what I did. I'm bad.

[A]

And it's attached to everything you do at that point is exactly, well, I don't deserve this because I'm a bad person, or I don't deserve this because I did this. That goes beyond. You know, I wish I didn't do that. It goes so much further than that. In my opinion, as you know, being an undocumented immigrant is not a crime. But people call undocumented immigrants illegal. What would. Could. Can you legally defend a person who is undocumented? Yeah, for a crime, if they're undocumented, they can still retain a criminal defense attorney.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay, interesting. Have you ever. Have you ever done that?

[B]

I live in Washington state, which has a large, like, migrant community. So, yes, I've definitely helped people who are not citizens defend themselves against criminal charges. And those cases stress me out like nothing else, because it's like, I thought I was a, you know, a. A DUI or domestic violence attorney. I didn't know. I'm, like, suddenly doing, like, a death penalty case, theoretically. You know what I mean? Like, if this person gets convicted and then they're, like, deported into a dangerous situation. Gosh. Another thing I kind of. I. I really worry about with. With what's going on today is people's ability to feel safe contacting law enforcement if they're being victimized. Like, that's just something I've been thinking about a lot. Like.

[A]

That's a good point.

[B]

Yeah. It's just. It's all very depressing. And frankly, like, the collateral consequences for immigrant clients are just so substantial. Even just like a theft or something, you know, that's a crime involving moral turpitude or whatever. And so for immigration purposes, it's really bad. Bad.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it's just. It's a lot of pressure to, you know, feel like somebody's life is, like, in your hands, truly.

[A]

Do undocumented immigrants ever face other risks by reporting crime, do you think, like, you kind of said, you know, if you're undocumented, you kind of are maybe apprehensive to contact law enforcement, even if it's to protect yourself. So do they face other risks, I guess, by reporting other crimes? Like, would that be kind of open a can of worms for. For them?

[B]

I mean, I would. I would hope not, but I think it could.

[A]

It could. That's. That's for sure. Is there a safe way for community members to protect undocumented immigrants? I did see a tik tok semi recently. I believe it was a tik tok where somebody was talking about how I think if them. An undocumented immigrant runs into your business or something, you can't hide them, but you don't have to give them up. Right. And if ICE comes in and says, like, do. Is there anyone here? You can't really lie to them.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

But in theory, if they run into your business without you, like saying, come on, you can kind of. They of kind can be protected in that way. But what are. Is there any way for people to protect undocumented immigrants?

[B]

Honestly, I think right now is a really scary time for a lot of people. People who are like, who. Who are undocumented or who are like, kind of in a gray zone with their immigration status and people who want to protect them. Because we know that people who have, you know, tried to protect immigrants have gotten into, you know, criminal situations of their own. And so I. I've thought about this a lot too, recently, because obviously it's like, you know, I want to help my community, and I just. I know people are so scared right now.

[A]

Yeah,

[B]

I've been donating to food banks.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That's. You know, I feel like some people are scared to leave their house and go to work. Beyond that, I think, like, education, insofar as you can, you know, just tell people, like, hey, you know, you don't have to talk to the police. You know what I mean? You don't have to let them search your whatever. Right. They can get a warrant. Like, you don't have to let them inside. Gosh, there are red cards. Have you heard of those?

[A]

No.

[B]

So you can order them online. I think you could probably order them for free, actually. But they're just these little cards and they say, you know, they tell you what your rights are, and basically people can like, show them to the police, you know what I mean, and invoke their rights that way. And it's in English to. I think there's an English side and Spanish side. But anyway, I would say look up red cards, and you can certainly, like, you know, maybe give those to people in your community or leave them places where you think that they would pick them up, but damn, it's brutal.

[A]

Yeah. What is one thing that undocumented individuals should know about their rights in the criminal justice system? System?

[B]

I think that, like, it all still applies. Like, definitely just try to limit your exposure to the criminal legal system as much as you can. God, it's just all so depressing. Like, Washington state is a, A sanctuary state. Right. So theoretically, police aren't supposed to help the immigration officers, like, apprehend people. And our jails aren't supposed to be, like, holding people for the sol purpose of, like, waiting for ICE to come pick them up.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And so, but like, that being said, there was a. Gosh, I don't. Earlier this year, there was a woman who was pre. Prelim. So, like, she had just been charged with a crime. Right. Not convicted. She had just been in front of the judge one time. Like, she, she was arrested, spent the night in jail, goes in front of the judge the next day, and then he releases her and the charge is still pending. Right. But she, she hasn't been convicted. And yeah, I. My friend, my lawyer friend who was there that day dealing with this, she saw ICE pick up this person, like, right after they were let out of the jail, and she was like, just like a young woman accused of domestic violence.

[A]

Against who?

[B]

I mean, it wasn't my case. I didn't really know. I was just kind of hearing this second hand from my friend who, like, witnessed this go down. But I don't know, it's. It's just, I would say, like, all you can do is protect yourself, like, the most that you can and try to, like, preserve your attorney's ability to fight for you on the back end without, like, you know, digging the hole any deeper inadvertently, by trying to. You know what I mean?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Most people think they can talk themselves out of it. You can't. You can't. It's just tough when it's like, not all rights are really being respected right now, but it's like we, we don't have control over that. You know, all we can do is, like, try to protect ourselves and our loved ones the best that we can.

[A]

What advice would you give someone who's afraid to contact an attorney because of their status?

[B]

An attorney? Oh, attorneys are on your side. They're paid advocates. So definitely, like, an attorney would be there to help you, not to, not to hurt you.

[A]

Right. Okay, that makes sense. What else would you like to share about being a criminal defense attorney? Maybe someone that wants to go to law school? What Would you. What? What advice would you give them?

[B]

Bigger dummies than us. Seriously, Right?

[A]

Like, you have to be on merch for your law firm.

[B]

I stole it from, I think, Georgia from my favorite murder.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

She said in some episode, like my grandma used to always tell me never or something. Something like. But seriously, like, I think that we just need people who, like, just want to do good, you know what I mean? Who just, like, give a fuck. Like, nobody's perfect. Like, I'm just as messed up as anybody else. But I think, like, if you just have, like, some humility and you just, like, recognize that you're a human too, it's just like, it's really beautiful to like, really just see people in such a vulnerable state and to be able to empower them. It's a beautiful thing. It's. It really is.

[A]

Do you feel like before you were a criminal defense attorney, before you went to law school, before you had your own firm, that you looked at people differently than you do now? Or do you think you do what you do now because you've always looked at people and it. You humanize everybody, even people that you defend.

[B]

I think I've always kind of had that. You know what I mean? I've always, like, been really interested in people and why they do what they do. But to get to do this job really is like an honor and a gift. I mean, to have somebody, like, trust you with their freedom, it's a really special thing. And it's also tough because, like I was saying, like, you, you really do bear witness to so much human suffering day after day. But I want to believe that, like, just by accepting people and being kind to them, them and, you know, just like putting more love into the universe, like, we're just making it, like a little bit better. Even if we live in such an effed up, you know, society with such an effed up system, like, just like any little bit that you can do, I think it matters.

[A]

And is there anywhere that people can follow you or if they're in Washington where they can retain you? Any information you'd like to share, your social media, if you'd like to share at your website, anything that you would like to share.

[B]

Thank you so much. I have a podcast called Drinks with Defenders that I co host with another criminal defense community attorney. And my law firm is K. Murphy Law and I practice in Wenatchee, Washington.

[A]

Thank you so much for coming. I'm barely famous.

[B]

Thank you so much, Gail.

[A]

Okay, guys, we're back. You asked for it and we're delivering. Killer is going on tour. We're super excited for the fatherless behavior tour. 23 cities, three countries, all in one summer. And you guys can check out tour dates and see if we're coming to a city near you on klow.com and if you want early access to information and announcements, head over to Patreon because you might get it before everyone else.

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[D]

Hey, quick question. Why do you keep thinking you can change that man? I mean, you are not not his mother. Let someone else change that poopy diaper and focus on yourself. Hi everyone. I'm Violet Benson, your Russian vic sister and almost adulting Viola Benson. I give you that tough love, dating advice and reality checks that you didn't ask for but you absolutely need. We talk relationships, confidence, mental health, boundaries, and how to finally stop settling for crumbs. You deserve better, babe. And it starts with me. So new episodes every Thursday. Come hang out with me. Follow rate and review almost adulting wherever you get your podcasts.