The Night Watcher with Daphne Woolsoncroft

Summary

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Barely Famous – "The Night Watcher with Daphne Woolsoncroft"

Host: Kail Lowry
Guest: Daphne Woolsoncroft (Host of Going West, Author of The Night Watcher)
Release Date: October 3, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this gripping episode, host Kail Lowry sits down with Daphne Woolsoncroft, the creator of one of true crime’s leading podcasts, Going West, and newly published author of the thriller novel The Night Watcher. Their conversation dives deep into the personal motivations behind Daphne’s move into the literary world, her experience navigating true crime storytelling both as an investigator and as a family member of a victim, and the delicate balance between advocacy and entertainment. The two explore dark cases, discuss the ethics of true crime content, and share highlights from Daphne’s creative process.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

Daphne’s Debut Novel: The Night Watcher

• Premise of the Book ([02:22]):
  • Centers on Nola, a radio show host in Portland, who receives a terrifying on-air call about a possible ghost.
  • Nola suspects the return of a serial killer from her childhood—who killed her babysitter—and feels she’s being watched.
• Inspiration for the Book ([02:56]):
  • Daphne’s background with her true crime podcast and love for thriller novels and horror films.
  • Personal experiences in Portland inspired the setting and atmosphere.
  • Desire to incorporate both the victim and detective perspectives: “I knew I also wanted to have a perspective of a detective, like, at least just this once.” ([03:49])

Transition from Podcast to Authorship

• Audience Reaction ([04:28]):
  • Positive reception from her true crime podcast followers — “So many people who have loved it are like, okay, so you. You can write. And it's not just. You're just doing it to do it...” ([04:55])
• Pressure & Choice of Topic ([04:13]):
  • Chose a serial killer theme as it aligned naturally with her podcasting background.

True Crime Podcasting: Motivation & Mission

• Origins & Personal Connection ([06:36]):
  • Daphne’s entry into true crime: Her aunt, Carol, disappeared in 1984—murdered by an abusive boyfriend whose crimes went largely unpunished.
  • “Her body has never been found, but we know she was murdered. And, like, I was always interested in that side of true crime, you know.” ([08:34])
• Impact on Perspective ([10:47]):
  • Personal loss shapes her respectful and victim-focused approach: “I definitely always want to be as sensitive as I can while still trying to make light because…our show is still entertainment.” ([10:52])

The Ethics & Challenges of True Crime Content

• Victim Sensitivity ([11:42]):
  • The delicate line between shedding light and sensationalizing tragedy.
  • Ensuring families feel respected, not exploited.
• Reaching Out to Families ([18:16]):
  • Balancing the urge to contact a victim’s family for comment with the concern of causing pain; dilemma around proactivity versus respecting boundaries.

Representation & Case Selection

• Highlighting BIPOC Cases ([15:00]):
  • Commitment to telling stories that media and other podcasts often ignore.
  • “Part of it for us is just sharing everybody's story…especially the ones that need it the most.” ([15:00])
• Choosing Cases ([17:02]):
  • Listeners’ case recommendations are crucial.
  • Focus on cases with enough detail for meaningful coverage, and lesser-known stories over the high-profile ones.

The Real-Life Toll of Consuming Darkness

• Emotional Impact ([33:47]):
  • Daphne and Heath decompress deliberately after consuming heavy material: solo activities or outings with friends ([34:29]).
• Paranoia from Content ([35:33]):
  • “Like, I am so paranoid now [...] My name on Uber is Duke, which is my dad’s name. Because…they can’t know I’m a woman.” ([35:44])

Notable Cases Discussed

• BTK Killer ([22:49]–[27:29]):
  • Examination of serial killers’ “breaks” between crimes—BNK (Bind, Torture, Kill) provided inspiration for Daphne’s fictional killer’s hiatus.
  • BTK's ordinary family life despite his secret crimes particularly haunting.
  • Kail’s dream of interviewing him (“I’ve got his address. I want to write to him and get him on the podcast so bad.” [22:51])
• Infamous Disappearances ([38:08]):
  • Brian Shaefer: went into a bar and was never seen exiting ([39:04]).
  • Brandon Swanson: vanished after car trouble, while on the phone with his parents ([40:08]).
  • Other ongoing mysteries and infamous cases, including Laci Peterson, JonBenét Ramsey, Brian Kohberger, and more.

Impactful Listener & Family Feedback

• Positive Family Reactions ([43:45]):
  • Instances where families thank Daphne and Heath for bringing awareness or validating their sense of injustice in a loved one’s death (e.g., the suspicious boy's hanging case).
• Advice for Under-covered Families ([48:40]):
  • Encourage social media advocacy, outreach to podcasters, and public sharing to gain visibility.

Writing Process & Inspirations

• Crafting Realistic Crime Fiction ([27:29]):
  • Used real autopsy reports (e.g., Nicole Brown Simpson) and police manuals for authenticity.
• Detective/Investigation Angle ([29:03]):
  • “I knew that people who listen to Going West would probably want to hear about that and because of being a true crime podcaster myself...” ([29:06])
• Favorite Authors & Recommendations ([31:53], [33:14]):
  • Camilla Bruce (You’d Let Me In, The Witch in the Well), Robin Harding (The Drowning Woman), Freida McFadden, Colleen Hoover.

True Crime & Genre Influences

• Balancing Horror & Thriller ([52:15]–[54:18]):
  • Daphne leans more towards psychological tension than gore, strives for genuine scares in her writing.
  • “I do think it’s really hard for me to find a book that scares me… so I go for tension building and creepiness.” ([53:42])

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Writing and Real-Life Ties
  “I wrote the outline in, like, four days, and it all just kind of tumbled out.” ([03:49])

• On the True Crime Community
  “I feel like true crime podcasts have, in a lot of ways, a bad rap as well. Like, oh, you're just a true crime podcast. You don't really care. Which I fully understand. So it's really sensitive, and we always just try to come at it…” ([18:56])

• On Sensationalism vs. Advocacy
  “I'm trying to spread awareness. That's the whole point. For no other reason. That's literally the reason I got into this. And honestly, most true crime podcasters are that exact same way.” ([19:31])

• On the Importance of Humanizing Victims
  “We really like to start the first, like, I don't know, maybe like 10 or 15 minutes about their background just to like, make people see that they were a person that was also not just murdered, but that they were a person.” ([50:56])

• On Consuming True Crime
  “It makes you so paranoid. Like, I feel like anytime like my name on Uber is Duke, which is my dad’s name. Because I’m like, I can’t, they can’t know I’m a woman.” ([35:44])

• On Favorite Part of Writing The Night Watcher
  “Honestly, the scary parts of the book...I really loved focusing on making the book as scary as I could because I love horror movies.” ([52:10])

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Highlighted Segments & Timestamps

• [02:22] – Daphne introduces The Night Watcher and inspiration behind it.
• [06:36] – Personal family tragedy and impact on true crime passions.
• [10:52] – Victim sensitivity in true crime podcasting.
• [15:00] – Prioritizing BIPOC and lesser-known case coverage.
• [17:02] – How cases are chosen for Going West.
• [22:49] – BTK Killer discussion and inspiration for Daphne’s novel.
• [27:29] – Using real world forensic detail in fiction.
• [33:47] – Emotional toll of working in true crime.
• [39:04] – Brian Shaefer disappearance; cases that haunt Daphne.
• [43:45] – Family gratitude and complicated emotions about coverage.
• [50:56] – The philosophy of humanizing victims in every episode.
• [52:10] – Writing the horror elements in The Night Watcher.

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Where to Find

• Daphne’s Podcast: Going West is available on all major podcast platforms.
• The Night Watcher: Order it online or in stores (Barnes & Noble, Amazon, select bookshops).
  “...it’s at the Strand. Like, I’m going to go see it at the Strand, you know, because why not maybe sign some copies?” ([57:08])
• Daphne on Social:
  • Instagram: @daphnewoolsoncroft
  • TikTok: @daphnewool

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For Listeners:

This episode is a must for true crime aficionados and those curious about the blurred lines between real tragedy, advocacy, and creative storytelling. Daphne’s empathy and seriousness shine through, making clear her commitment to respect and justice amidst the genre’s inherent darkness.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Thank you so much for having me.

[A]

Of course. So before we were just talking about writing books and stuff. Congratulations on the Night Watcher.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Yes. So tell me about the book. Obviously, you have your. You have a podcast, you have a true crime podcast, but newer than that, you have your book.

[B]

Yes, my book, Night Watcher just came out last week. So it's about a radio show host in Portland, Oregon, and she's just living her life, doing her show, and she gets this terrifying on air call where the woman thinks there's a ghost in her house. And it makes Nola realize that a serial killer from her childhood is back and she feels like she's being watched at her house, so she thinks that the killer is back and coming for her, because when she was a kid, he killed her babysitter. And this is, like, a very prominent serial killer in the area. And so, yeah, it's very scary.

[A]

So what inspired the book, though?

[B]

Well, because I have my podcast Going West, I knew that I wanted. I mean, I've always loved thriller novels and mysteries. Like, I was such a Nancy Drew kid and have just always been into that genre. And I love horror movies, so I knew I wanted to write a thriller novel always.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But specifically this story. So I met my husband in Oregon, but I'm from la, so we were living in this amazing house in Portland. It's very similar to the one that I describe in the book that Nola lives in. And it, like, looked over the city and it was, like, located on a hillside. And, like, my thriller brain was always like, I feel like there's somebody on the street watching me. So I. I felt like it was a good setting for a book, and I knew I wanted to write about a serial killer because of Going west and just all my knowledge of serial killers and true crime investigations in general, so. And I knew I also wanted to have a perspective of a detective, like, at least just this once.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To kind of like, launch me into a book career, you know, coming from the podcast. So we have his perspective as well as Nola's, and. Yeah. And I wrote the outline in, like, four days, and it all just kind of tumbled out. But I had a totally different idea I was gonna go with that was a little. It's a little more thrillery that I ended up doing for my second book instead. So.

[A]

Okay. I was gonna say, would you ever use it for another.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it was like. But that's why I felt like, you know, there's so much pressure going into your first book. What is this book gonna be about? What do I make this about? Because it's like, the first.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I felt like doing it about a serial killer made the most sense for me.

[A]

What is the reaction been from your podcast audience?

[B]

It's been really good. It was really exciting to see everybody pre order it and just be excited about it because I feel like there's also this weird connection of, oh, I have a platform, so I'm just putting my hands in all the pies, you know? But I've always really wanted to be an author, and I've always been a writer, so it's been really nice to, like, so many people who have loved it are like, okay, so you. You can write. And it's not just. You're just doing it to do it, you know? So I've gotten a lot of really.

[A]

Good feedback, but it's also in the same niche as your podcast, so it also makes sense.

[B]

Yeah. So there's been a lot of transfer, which is nice as well. It's not like I'm writing a romance novel.

[A]

Wait, so tell me about the podcast you have Going West. And you're. Are you with Unwell Network?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yes. Okay, so there. That's. That show is their first true crime show. Is that right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How exciting was that for you?

[B]

It was amazing. So we. I didn't know Alex. I knew of the on well network. When they approached us, they'd only been around for like, maybe eight months or so because they're still really new, but obviously I knew who Alex Cooper was and she's just such a powerhouse. And we have the same agent.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So our agent was trying to find us a new ad come. Yeah. Like a new home, but mostly just for ads, because Going west was under Dark West Productions, which is just our. You know, we don't have any other shows on. It was just. Just our, like, House Network.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And our agent was like. So we pitched it to Unwell and Alex loves the show and we're like, oh, okay, that would be such a different experience, you know? Yeah. And we were kind of worried that maybe too much was going to change, but they have been so supportive. Like, it couldn't have been a better decision because everybody that works at Unwell is so nice and fun and excited for you, and they're just like the best cheerleaders. So.

[A]

And you need that, especially in the podcasting space. I feel like you need people that are going to root for you.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And so it's been fun being there first because all their other shows are so different from ours, but it's nice to kind of like, mix it up a little bit, you know?

[A]

Agreed. And then you probably have access to potentially, like podcast swaps and stuff like that.

[B]

Yeah, totally. Yeah, it's been fun. We've been just slowly meeting a bunch of the other podcasters over the last few months because a lot of them are in la, but a lot of them are outside of la. So it's been really fun to be a part of, like, a team when for so long it was just Heath and I.

[A]

What inspired you to get into a career of tr, like, in True Crime, I.

[B]

You know, it's Funny, because I didn't grow up listening to anything true crime. Like, I didn't watch Dateline growing up or any of that. Heath did. And so he always loved it. Like, his mom is such a true crime buff, always watching Dateline and Forensic Files and stuff like that. But I got into it because my mom's sister disappeared in 1984, when my mom was in her early 20s. And when Carol, her sister, was 20. And we know that she was murdered because, like, I could talk about this case for so long, but essentially she had told our grandparents. Our. I'm like, saying our. My grandparents. That she was afraid of her boyfriend, who she'd only been dating for, like, two months at that time, but they were living together because they worked at the same restaurant. So a bunch of people from the restaurant lived in this house in Florida. And she, like, learned that he was a drug dealer and that he was super violent. And so she was trying to get away from him, but was scared how she would leave him. Like, it was that kind of abusive situation.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then she went missing, and. And he did so many suspicious things after she went missing. Like, he went to his dad's house, borrowed a shovel, borrowed his dad's car, and then drove 14 miles, came back, burned the shovel, and said, if you tell anybody I was here, I'll kill you. So it's like, you don't do that, you know, he didn't report her missing. My grandparents did. Or, yeah, my grandparents did. Her parents did. And then he fled to New York, and years later, he killed two other women, at least, and their children. And then he died in prison. So that story just always haunted me, like, being a part of a family that dealt with all that mystery and not knowing exactly what happened. Her body has never been found, but we know she was murdered. And, like, I was always interested in that side of true crime, you know.

[A]

With that being said, and I hope this isn't too insensitive, do you think that it's easier to get away with murder than. Than people think? Because how did he not get caught for your aunt's disappearance?

[B]

No, I think I. My theory is that because it. The area where his dad lived was very much swampland. And so my theory is that he drove out, like, he killed her in some way and then dumped her in a swamp somewhere. And the problem is, it's like, so many cases, if there's no actual evidence and you don't have a body, they really have nothing. So if he put her in a swamp, in an alligator, ate her, you know, then they're never going to find her, and then they're never going to know what happened to her. So they don't know what happened. Then they can't arrest him, you know.

[A]

Literally, if there's no body, there's no evidence.

[B]

Unless he killed her in their house. And there was blood evidence, like enough blood evidence to prove that she died there, but there wasn't. Like, they didn't know where the crime scene was, so. And he was not investigating with police either. He wouldn't answer any of their questions. And very early on in the investigation, he left the state for New York and then he never, never came back.

[A]

And there was nothing they could do about that.

[B]

Yeah. And they're like, still haunted to this day by. They've told me because they had nothing.

[A]

Are you haunted to this day? Like, how did you grow up in a family where someone literally was disappeared?

[B]

It's really sad for my sister and I. I think it was really tough for us growing up and knowing that our mom lost her sister and her only sibling, like, that always just made us really sad when we thought about our relationship because we're twins and, you know, you have twins, twins do everything together, and that's such a special connection. So knowing that my mom lost that connection, even though she wasn't a twin was always really sad for us. But my mom also didn't make herself a victim because of it. Like, she didn't walk through life with her head down, and neither did my grandparents. And so I think my mom always had a really positive outlook on it and didn't make us feel bad for her, you know, which I almost makes me feel more sad because I'm like, you're silently hurting. So it was really, it was really hard also just thinking about the fact that, you know, where would she be today? What would she look like? What would she be like? What would our relationship be like in her relationship with my mom? And would she have kids that we would be friends with? So, yeah, it's. It's hard to think about in that way.

[A]

Does it change the way that you put out true crime content being that your family went through something like this?

[B]

100. I feel like Heath and I have always been very victim based. And I feel like there are a lot of true crime podcasts or true crime shows that sensationalized true crime. And I understand why, because if you're not connected to it, like, oh, my God, that's a crazy story. We all think that when we hear about shit, you know, so I understand that perspective, but seeing it from the other side, I definitely always want to be as sensitive as I can while still trying to make light because it's so hard to think about because our show is still entertainment. So it's like trying to find the line between being entertaining and not hurting people's feelings or being crass or rude or, you know, especially because a lot of time the family listens. So I never want to hurt somebody's feelings. And I think being on the inside of that in some way has helped me change the way that I approach it. For sure.

[A]

Right. Because you never want to disrespect, like, the victim's family or anything like that. And it's really hard. One of my other podcasts, we used to do True Crime bonus episodes every month. And it. I just. I personally couldn't figure out a way to put out the true crime in a way that was not offensive to them.

[B]

It's really hard.

[A]

It's hard to walk that line. So I just never really know. But I'm a big fan of true Crime. You know, Dateline, 20 20, Idaho Channel, all the podcasts.

[B]

It's fascinating.

[A]

It's insane.

[B]

That's why it's. It's. I understand why it's sensationalized because it's crazy and people can do this and.

[A]

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[B]

With like Heath and I? Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, he said he has always approached it as sensitively as I have and even though he kind of came from a different kind of background and I mean, he like his uncle disappeared and that was kind of an ambiguous thing as well. But yeah, I think it's been really nice to kind of build it with him, especially because we know each other so well and figure out like how we want to present the show. We always wanted to do it in.

[A]

The same way Heath's uncle disappeared.

[B]

Yeah, I don't really know the details of it. It was like his uncle, it was like one of his aunts, his aunt's husband, like way long ago and we don't know about it. I've always wanted to know more and there's literally no information because it's a side of his family that he's not close with. So.

[A]

Yeah, but did that bring you guys closer? Because how do you like what I know?

[B]

I don't know. I've always tried to find out more and he's like, yeah, we literally don't know. But I don't. I think because he wasn't affected by it because it was an uncle that he didn't really know. He just has an interesting kind of connection to that side of things as well. But you know, he's. He is such a compassionate and amazing guy. So he's always had that lens.

[A]

Anyway, you've also focused a lot of the stories on the bipoc community. What inspires you to do that?

[B]

I mean, I think naturally there's not enough attention on the bipoc community. I think we all know that and there's a lot of people that say that and then they still don't share those stories. And I think that's part of it for us is just sharing everybody's story and not caring who it is, but also caring who it is in the sense that we're shedding light on the stories that need it the most. I think, like, I would never cover the zodiac color. You know, we've done more well known stories, but it's always been an interest of ours to cover the lesser known stories because the reason I wanted to start the podcast in the first place, I actually originally wanted to do a podcast about my aunt and I was going to call it the Doe Diaries. And then I thought, well, I think the best way to get her story out there is to have a general true crime podcast and then eventually highlight her case if I can create a platform for myself.

[A]

And.

[B]

And that's exactly what I've been able to do, luckily. But because her case is so lesser known, nobody knows about it. You've never heard it on another true crime podcast until I brought it up and somebody has approached me to cover it, which has been really nice. So I think just covering lesser known stories is really important to us. And unfortunately a lot of people who go missing in the bipoc communities are lesser known because a lot of people don't talk about them. So that's kind of just come naturally as well with the type of stories that we want to tell to get attention to the stories that nobody's talking about.

[A]

Have other true crime podcasts not reached out? I feel like because we're in the podcast space and podcast swaps are like the best way to grow.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Why are we not helping each other out?

[B]

I know the trail went cold. His name is Robin. He's such a sweet guy. After I came out with the episode and people learned that I had a missing aunt, he reached out and he wanted to cover her case. Crawl Space podcast did the same thing and they interviewed me and let me tell Carol story on their podcast years ago. So a couple have. But like nobody else has, which is fine, but.

[A]

No, it's not fine. It's not. How do you go about choosing what cases you're going to cover? Obviously you want to pick the lesser known ones, but how do you then narrow it down even further?

[B]

Oh my God. We have literally thousands of cases. We have like a Google Doc of all these cases because we get so many emails. So the email recommendations help a lot because Heath and I on our own time just like sift through as many cases as we can. But it's so hard to find them randomly online, especially for the lesser known ones. Because, like, what am I supposed to look up? You know, so I'll do like Colorado 2004 missing woman. Like I'll just randomly look up and sometimes that helps and we'll be able to find stuff that way. Or, you know, I'll look up craziest, lesser known cases and I'll Dive through, like, hundreds of Reddit comments on random posts, but usually we get recommendations, which is so helpful. And then we just have to do the preliminary research of, like, is there. Okay, yes, it's lesser known, but is there. Is it so lesser known that there's not enough to talk about and the family isn't alive or willing to talk to us? So it can be, like, weirdly hard to find something that has the perfect amount of information to cover it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But we do two a week, so we're, like, constantly looking.

[A]

People have reached out to me and been like, hey, can you talk about this case on your podcast? Just for awareness? And I always feel so bad because I'm not a true crime podcast. I don't even know how to truly put out that type of information.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When you're talking to, you know, victims, families, and stuff like that, do you ever feel like, I don't know if I would know the right things to say?

[B]

Oh, 100. I always feel so guilty. And I always feel like a lot of the time I would rather just not even reach out. But then that also makes me feel bad because if I come out with an episode, it has happened before where someone's like, hey, you didn't even try to contact me. And I'm like, I just, honestly, I just didn't want to hurt your feelings. I didn't want to dredge up up old stuff because I think about my mom and I'm like, if somebody emailed my mom, she would be like, I don't want to talk about that. But I think if somebody covered the case, she would be like, oh, cool. So I think I just have that perspective of my particular mother.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And whereas some people think that's rude not to. So it's really hard, though, because it also. I feel like true crime podcasts have, in a lot of ways, a bad rap as well. Like, oh, you're just a true crime podcast. You don't really care. Which I fully understand. So it's really sensitive, and we always just try to come at it. I always try to use the my aunt went missing card, which I hate to do as well. But just so they know that I'm not some vulture.

[A]

Right. Like, you actually care.

[B]

Yeah, like, I actually do care.

[A]

I wonder why people think that people that host true crime podcasts don't actually care.

[B]

I don't know. I think I. I feel like it's just a thing, whereas, oh, you're just a true crime podcast. Somebody asked me, like, a few months ago, like, oh, don't you feel so guilty that you have a career off of missing people and I can see it that way. But no, I'm trying to spread awareness. That's the whole point. For no other reason. That's literally the reason I got into this. And honestly, most true crime podcasters are that exact same way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think a lot of people just don't see that.

[A]

So what do you think sets your podcast apart from other true crime podcasts?

[B]

I think, ah, it's hard. When we started the show, like, I was obsessed with True Crime Garage. They're one of my all time favorites. I don't listen to true crime podcasts anymore because I get enough of that. But it wasn't necessarily that I felt like there was a gap and we needed to fill that gap. I just feel like I don't know because I. I don't really think we're anything quote unquote special. I love that Heath and I have the relationship that we do because I think it creates natural, good conversation. I think we both, both just have similar viewpoints as well. Just on the cases and the cases that we cover, like I said. So. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I think, I think it's nice that we can come at it with a respectful angle and telling lesser known stories and not as much the JonBenet's of it all, which I feel a lot of people actually don't focus on the lesser known stories. People want to talk about JonBenet. I do too, totally. But a lot of people don't know about all these other people because there's so many people out there that are missing and murdered that don't get that attention.

[A]

Yeah, well, and I think because it was a different time, you're covering cases that couldn't have had the same media attention. You know what I mean? So. And now we have the ability to get the eyes on those cases.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So that's helpful, I would imagine.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

I'm still just fascinated by the JonBenet Ramsey of it all. I don't think I'll ever get over that case.

[B]

Oh, I mean, same it's. And that's why people are so fascinated by it for a reason. I would listen to a podcast on JonBenet Ramsey today. Like that's why people talk about it, because everybody always wants to talk about it because we can't understand it.

[A]

So did any of the cases that you've covered on your podcast seep into when you were writing the Night Watcher?

[B]

Like, I think it's more so just the general knowledge of cases. But there was. There was like a few instances where I kind of did tap in. It wasn't like, oh, we covered this case and I want to utilize that story for a book. It was more so, like, I knew that I wanted the killer in my book to either. Like, I wanted there to be a break. So I won't spoil if it's a hiatus or there's a copycat, but I wanted there to be an ambiguous break in when he's killing and he's killing again. And because throughout the whole book, you're wondering, is it a copycat or did he take a break? And if he took a break, why, like, what happened? So I was trying to figure out, first and foremost, do people do that? Because if you're a serial killer, you're killing multiple people. So I was trying to figure out, do they ever take a break, break, or is there just a period where they're still killing and they're not being caught? And then I learned about BTK because I never look into the big story. So I didn't even know I knew who BTK was. Bind, torture, kill. But I didn't know all about him. Do you know him?

[A]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[B]

I saw you.

[A]

I got his address. I want to write to him and get him on the podcast so bad.

[B]

You're lying.

[A]

It's like I'm speaking it into existence. But I. So my old. When I started in the podcast industry, I started with a boutique network.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And the producer wrote to him and he wrote back, no way. Yes.

[B]

What do you say he.

[A]

That he doesn't know why he killed. He doesn't know why he killed people. And he lived a double life. He had a whole family. He was married, he had kids. He would go to his son's boy Scout camping and get up in the middle of it and go kill somebody and come back insane. Insane.

[B]

I wonder how many letters he even gets.

[A]

You know, he's like, surely he still gets them. Which ones are grabbing his attention? Mentioned today.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, it's not like he's constantly in the news, but it was.

[A]

Just his 20 year anniversary. That's what, like, brought it all up for me. Because I'm like, girl, let's do it. This episode is brought to you by better help. October 10th is World Mental Health Day. And this year we're saying thank you to our therapists. Better Help therapists have helped over 5 million people worldwide on their mental health journeys. That's millions of stories, millions of Journeys. And behind everyone is a therapist who showed up, listen and helped someone take a step forward. Moments in therapy like the the right question, a safe space to cry or a small win can change lives. And this World Health Day, Better Help is honoring those connections and therapists who make them possible, while showing how easy it is to get guidance from a licensed therapist online. With Better Help, I am actively back in therapy. It has not been an easy journey. It absolutely has not been linear. So I don't want that to be confused with this. Better Help is easy, but sometimes therapy is not. And I just want to say that it's still worth it to go to face the challenges, to grow as a person, to make better choices, to break generational curves, course, anything like that. Better Help has therapists that have a wide range of expertise and they are working according to a strict code of conduct. They're fully licensed in the US and BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your actual therapy goals. You fill out a short questionnaire that helps identify your needs and your preferences and their 10 plus years of experience and industry leading. Match fulfillment rate means that they typically get it right the first time. But if you're not happy with your match, you can switch to a different therapist at any time. And I've said this countless times, but I have also gone through a few therapists before. I found the right match for me. With over 30, 000 therapists. BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people globally. And it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. This World Mental Health Day, we're celebrating the therapists who have helped millions of people take a step forward. If you're ready to find the right therapist for you, BetterHelp can help you start that journey or my listeners get 10 off their first month at betterhelp.com barely. That's betterhelp H-E-L-P.com barely. But wait, so did he go on a break?

[B]

Sorry. Yeah. So he went on a break and it was because he was hired? No, he had a family, like you were saying. So he had a family and he got married and he, he started working a job that gave him like that feeling of having power because a lot.

[A]

One where he worked for the home security. I knew, I knew this case.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So he was like, like, I think because he got that feeling of power from his job, like, oh, I work in security. He felt like he didn't have to kill during that period of time, which I thought was so interesting.

[A]

I thought, okay, so I got it up. Then I thought that he was killing the families that he installed the system in.

[B]

No, he was using, he was using that position of power as I don't even know. I don't know what company he worked for. I just don't think it was pretty sure he worked. But he literally, just from having that particular position, it felt like it gave him enough power. Because a lot of serial killers kill for that feeling of power. They want, they want to overpower somebody. So their way of doing that is by killing them, which is crazy, but a lot of serial killers do that. And he felt like satisfied enough through his job that he didn't have to keep killing. And then I actually don't remember what happened because this was like three years ago that I looked into.

[A]

I think we should do a deep dive.

[B]

I'm down. So he was like a big inspiration because of that. Because I'm like, oh, that has happened. So I wanted to be able to know, okay, that happened. Serial killers can take a break again if we even go that route. Just so that was like something they could speculate on. You know, in my book, the Other Case, that not inspired it, but all the victims in my book die by having their throat slit, like from the back.

[A]

Like, my worst fear. Your worst fear, My worst nightmare.

[B]

Yeah. So I wanted to, I was trying to think, oh, have we ever. Because that's not very typical. I feel like most of the cases that we cover, they're stabbed or they're shot, you know, or they're strangled. Very seldom do we see that somebody's just slicing necks, you know. But I mean, the Nicole Brown Simpson case, she was stabbed a lot in her head and in her neck, but she also had her throat slit. And so I looked at her autopsy and I used a lot of her autopsy for my book, but those are really the only two cases that I kind of like tapped into.

[A]

I didn't even know that they. How people get autopsy pictures. I did see.

[B]

Oh, no, I didn't look at the pictures. I looked at the report. Oh, yeah, no, I certainly didn't look at the pictures.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

But there was like, like in my book, I describe that she had. One of the victims had like a 6 inch gash across her neck. And so did Nicole. So that's where I got that.

[A]

Oh, that makes sense. Because obviously we, we're not, not scientists. So we can't like put in the full details, but if you take them from another case, that makes sense.

[B]

I want it to be forensically correct.

[A]

No, that makes sense.

[B]

Exactly. I'm. That's not my job. So I wanted to look at a case that was kind of similar and say, oh, okay. Oh, these arteries are severed. When that happens. I had to do a lot of research into like the body.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And also I read like a police handbook. I did so much research into what it's like to be a detective since that I'm not super familiar with other than knowing how invest investigations unravel. So I had to do like a lot of that side of research as well for the book.

[A]

What made you want to put a detective aspect in your book?

[B]

I think just because I knew that people who listen to Going west would probably want to hear about that and because of being a true crime podcaster myself, it felt like a good natural move to really focus on an investigation specifically. Like the idea I was telling you about before that I had that I ended up making my second book.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

There's not. We don't see it from the investigative side of it. So I felt like, okay, I feel like the time to do that is with my first book to show what. Because I'm also like, can I write a book? I've never. I wrote a book when I was 19, but it was a novella and it was like 130 pages.

[A]

Did you publish it?

[B]

I self published it, yeah.

[A]

You should repromote it, make some money.

[B]

No, I took it out of print because I rushed it so bad.

[A]

Just re edit.

[B]

So yeah, I may, I may. But that was like there was like a crime romance situation, kind of like a Bonnie and Clyde vibe, But in the 70s in New Orleans, like it was happy.

[A]

Like dark romance maybe.

[B]

Yeah, maybe some dark romance. Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

So your other book that you. Your second book.

[B]

My second book, yeah.

[A]

Is that the Made in Hollywood?

[B]

No. Okay. That's the book I'm talking about.

[A]

Read says it's unpublished.

[B]

Girl, that should be off Goodreads. I tried to get them to remove it out. No, you can keep it bit.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's just fun. No, Made in Hollywood is my first book, but that was the nolla. My second book is going to be called the Season of Sinking.

[A]

Your first book came out last week. Your second book. Do you have a timeline for the. The. The book Talkers listening to this?

[B]

I think it'll be like a year. I'm trying to do books every year cuz I love it. So much. But that's why with my first book before I really wrote a full book other than my Little Nolla, that we don't even count as my book that I wrote because it was so short, which, not that novellas aren't books, of course, but for me, it just didn't feel like an accomplishment. So, yeah, with this other book, though, I'm really excited about it. I loved it. It just didn't feel like the right choice for my first story. But after I wrote Night Watcher, I just knew that this was a good path for me and I want to keep writing books. I want to be an annual author. So I think the season of Singing will be out probably next July.

[A]

Do you feel pressure now that you've written one book to write more books, or is it something that you genuinely want to do?

[B]

No, I like, like, like if I'm not working on my book. And I'm. I hate to say this because it's not that I don't like working on Going west, but if I'm working, Going west is so timec consuming. So that's my full time job, you know, so I'm working on that all day and I'm like, oh my God, I didn't get to write today. And I'm so sad about it. So I do really love writing. That's what I wanted to do since I was a kid. It's just that being a true crime podcaster happened first, you know, and now.

[A]

It'S like a change of pace.

[B]

Yeah, it's a nice little break from, from the heavy, real true crime side of things.

[A]

What? Who are your favorite authors?

[B]

Okay, right now. So I am like, I've read Freedom McFadden. I loved Verity by Colleen Hoover. You know, I read all. I read all of it. But an author who I think's. Or who I think needs so much more attention is Camilla Bruce. She's like Norwegian and. Okay, you have to read this book. It's called you'd let Me in. It came out, I think in 2020, but I read it only a couple months ago. And it's very dark psychological thriller. It's so good. It's essentially this woman who experiences childhood, or we start when she's a girl and she experiences childhood trauma, and she's kind of covering that childhood trauma with the idea that this, like, fairy man called the Pepper man exists. And you're trying to figure out if she's crazy or if she just has deep psychological trauma. And it's so good. And then she wrote Another book called the Witch in the well that I love. So right now I'm like, I literally need more books from her so bad.

[A]

And are those the only two books that she has right now?

[B]

She has two other books that I haven't read because they're kind of more like old American true crime vibe. And I like this more like Estate Garden dark psychological fantasy thing that she's doing with her other two books.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So I haven't read the other ones, but yeah, I think having a favorite author can be hard because people explore different kind of settings and themes. I love Robin Harding. Have you read any of her books? Girl, the Drowning Woman is.

[A]

Oh, I've heard. No, that one is on my tbr. It's the woman in the water. She's, like, walking out. Okay. Or walking. I guess perception is everything.

[B]

Yeah. On the COVID Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. So that's on my tbr. I just haven't gotten to it yet.

[B]

She's amazing.

[A]

Do you ever get overwhelmed with all the true crime consumption because you're doing the podcast and you're listening to stuff and you're reading and you're writing and you're doing all the things. You ever get overwhelmed?

[B]

100%. I feel like I'm way too sensitive not to be overwhelmed with it. And especially because we do two cases. Two cases a week, it can just feel like a lot. These are real people's stories that we're talking about. And even though I'm so fascinated by the subject, it can feel so heavy. We recently came out with an episode, the Bellevue Killer, and it's this serial killer in 1990 in Bellevue, Washington. And like. Like the positions that he left his victims in is just so horrific. And just some of the things that you have to read and talk about, it's so dark and just over and over and over again. It's really hard. So Heath and I have to decompress a lot afterwards.

[A]

Yeah. What do you do to decompress?

[B]

We have, like. So it's kind of funny because obviously we work together and we're married, so I feel like a lot of people will go to work away from their spouse or partner, and then they'll come home, and that's their time together. Ours is kind of of the opposite.

[A]

I understand.

[B]

We work together all day, and so usually when we're done working, he'll go like, his way to decompress is, like, play apex on his PlayStation or go in the hot tub with hot tub with some beers. And I just like to read on the couch or watch a movie or something. But we still hang out a lot and we love doing the same things, like if we go out to a movie or go bowling or go to a bar, like a chic restaurant with our friends or something. So we just try to like get away from it, you know.

[A]

Or go out with your brother in law.

[B]

Right. 100 me and Gary will go to the movies without Heath.

[A]

There was a time where I was only consuming true crime content. So it was like ID channel all day listening to true crime podcast all day. When I listened to what like morbid. Then I could listen to another one and then I listen to another one to the point that I was like jumping when I looked over my shoulder. So I had to take like a clean break from it because it really does like consume your entire life and.

[B]

It makes you so paranoid. Like I feel like anytime like my name on Uber is Duke, which is my dad's name. Because I'm like, I can't, they can't know I'm a woman. Like I am so paranoid now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like my postmate's name is also Duke. Like I don't want somebody knowing a woman lives in my house. So you just get really paranoid and it just, it's really heavy.

[A]

No, I agree. I have my neutrophil right here and I'm also taking it with me on my trip. But I'm here to tell you that Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand trusted by over one and a half million people. I've been on it for quite some time. My friend Sterling is on it and you can feel great about what you're putting into your body. Since Nutrafol hair growth supplements are backed by peer reviewed studies and NSF Content certified, the gold standard and third party certification for supplements. And there are so many supplements out there. But a lot of those supplements rely solely on ingredient studies, whereas Nutrafol clinically tests final formulations to ensure their efficiency. Using a variety of hair measurement tools like hair counts, pull test test. These assess the growth, quality and shedding and texture of your hair. Adding neutral to your daily routine is simple. You purchase online, no prescription required and you get automated deliveries and free shipping to keep you on track. I love that it comes straight to my door. Plus with a Nutrafol subscription you can save up to 20. You'll have access to free one on one naturopathic doctor consult to support you on your hair growth journey. And a headspace meditation membership is included. So for me, no brainer hair see thicker, stronger, faster growing hair with less shedding in just three to six months with Nutrafol. For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering my listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping. When you go to nutrafold.com famous find out why Nutrafol is the best selling hair growth supplement [e-mail] spelled n u t r-a f o l.com famous that's nutriful.com famous do you ever feel like it shapes the way that you view the world and like what humanity is capable of?

[B]

Yes, because there's. You learn. Wow. There's a lot of up people out there.

[A]

And it's always people you never expect. Like the BTK Killer, for example.

[B]

That's the thing.

[A]

The fact that we have all probably stumbled across some sort of murderer at some point in our lives. Because you truly have no idea.

[B]

Yeah, that. That is really the scariest thing. Actually the day my book come out we. Or the day my book came out, we came out with this episode called the Hiding Man. That's the killer in my book Anatomy of a Serial Killer. And we just really dove into the anatomy of a serial killer and talked about so many well known killers that are just normal ass people.

[A]

Has there been a case that you've covered on your podcast specifically or just that you know of that has sort of lived rent free in your head?

[B]

Okay. My sister and I, so back before I was a true crime podcaster and we would obsessively listen to True Crime Garage. Like we would really get addicted to just the really strange disappearances. Do you know, you know Brian Schaefer? Oh my God, girl. Like, so he, in 2006 in Columbus, Ohio, he was like a young man, he was like a med student to be. He wanted to be a doctor. And he was out at a bar and there's literally security footage of him going into the bar and there's no footage of him leaving the bar. So. So you're like, did you literally fall into a parallel universe? Like what? Like something had to have happened to your physical body. What happened? And so I think cases like that where somebody just goes missing, especially in that situation where he was literally at a bar where there was a camera outside.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And there's no footage of him leaving. So how did he get out? What do you mean? How is he missing? And his body's never been found. So the reason we started with our first episode ever was Brandon Swanson. Do you know that story? I don't that was in 2008 in Minnesota. And he was also a young man. He was at a friend's party, like a small gathering. And he was taking the back Minnesota roads. Like picture farmland. And he drove his car into a ditch off the side of the road. And his car got stuck. So he called his parents and said, hey, I drove into a ditch. Can you come pick me up? And he was telling them exactly where he thought he was. They go to that location where he's telling them they're honking their horn, they're flashing their headlights. Lights. And they're like, can you hear us? Can you see us? And he's like, no, can you hear me? He's doing the exact same thing. And they can't hear each other. And he. His phone. Eventually, while he's on the phone with his parents, he says, oh. And the call drops and he's never been found. And he was trying to walk through farmland, they think to find his parents farmland. Yeah. Like, you know, just like.

[A]

Right. So he wasn't by a car. So he didn't get hit by a car.

[B]

No, there was no cars out. So he, he. Yeah, that's exactly what people think about. They're like, did he fall and pass out and then a tractor ran over him and then they tried to cover it up, you know, so your mind can go anywhere. I think just those stories where there's no answers and somebody disappears so mysteriously. Just really stick with me.

[A]

Stay with you. Yeah. I feel like I've watched enough. Disappeared.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's a great show.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

On ID Channel.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is there like a high profile case that you can think of that has stuck with you, like for me? Lacy Peterson.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Also the Idaho 4. Brian Coburger.

[B]

My God. So he's so scary as well. Like Heath and I were talking about this in our Anatomy of a Serial Killer case or episode that, you know, usually serial killers look normal. They're normal people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I feel like Brian Coburger just looks so. Like his eyes are just scary.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that story is insane.

[A]

Do you think we'll ever have answers from him? Him?

[B]

I don't know because he's saying that he's admitting guilt, but he's not doing it. So he's not actually saying, here's what happened.

[A]

I'm not super familiar with how it all works.

[B]

There's so much coming out constantly as well. I just think it's sad that he is able to say that he did it and not give details because that just feels like such a cop out.

[A]

I want to know details for the victim's family. Yeah, of course.

[B]

Wait, do you think Scott did it? Scott Peterson?

[A]

I do. I didn't for a little bit. Like, I was like, a flat earther for a second, and I was like, hold on. I don't. He might not have done it. And then I talked to Beth and was, like, going over what circumstantial evidence is and when it's no longer circumstantial. And I was like, okay, I could see how Scott Peterson could have gotten acquitted because Casey Anthony and O.J. simpson, like, I get it. But then when she brought up the perspective of, like, all the things, I.

[B]

Was like, oh, girl, my dad thinks he's innocent. And I have.

[A]

Do you think he's innocent? Do you think he's innocent?

[B]

We have fought with our dad so much on this because, so, like, growing up, our dad was, like, obsessed. I'm saying our dad because my sister's in the room.

[A]

Her twin sister is in the room.

[B]

My. Like, our dad was obsessed with true crime, but he didn't. He didn't, like, do that publicly. And I think out of respect for my mom. So I didn't ever see him watching, like, anything. And so I got into all these cases really late, and so probably within the first year of having going west, we covered Lacy Peterson. And in my head, I was like, what? The story is crazy, dad. Have you heard about this? And he was like, girl, I live through that. Like, yeah, I know. I know every detail. And I'm like, he's so innocent or he's so guilty, blah, blah. My dad was like, no, like, he didn't do this. And he just thinks that he's, like, a piece of. But he doesn't think he killed her.

[A]

There was a small window of time where I was like, okay, I could get behind this theory. Like, it was all circumstantial. It was all a coincidence, if you will.

[B]

Well, isn't that Innocence Project looking at him now?

[A]

Yes. What the are they thinking?

[B]

I mean, I think just because we're like. Like, I think just because the. The evidence is so weird. Like, I. I do, in part understand why people think he's innocent, but I don't. I don't necessarily think he's innocent. Like, I understand why he's in prison.

[A]

It's one of those things that's weird with, like, especially with high profile cases. I'm sure it happens with cases that we don't really hear about, but I understand why people get acquitted. Yeah, but that doesn't mean that they're not guilty. And that's the biggest. I think discrepancy is like. Like O.J. simpson was acquitted, but that doesn't mean he's innocent. And Casey Anthony was acquitted, but it doesn't mean she's innocent.

[B]

It's so weird still seeing, like, random pictures of her, like on a date or something.

[A]

She has a whole boyfriend living her best life, and we're just like, why do you get to go on?

[B]

It's insane.

[A]

Have you ever had victims reach out and say, like, maybe victims families and reach out and say, like, thank you for covering the case and that, you know, maybe it brought up a new. I don't know, it re.

[B]

Yeah, there was one. So we do get a lot of emails and comments like that, which always makes me feel like, oh, thank God. Because I always get anxious when we release an unsolved case or even a solve case, because even if, let's say the family has been out there for years trying to get answers, and then they get answers, and then you're talking about it, it's like, I'm not trying to poke at a wound that is now healing. So it's. It's always really hard, whether it's solved or unsolved, to talk about things when know that there's family out there. And a lot of people who are advocating there is this boy who was. Okay, so he died outside of his home, like on his playground, essentially, like on the swing set. Like, he was like strangled by the swing, essentially, or he was like hung by the swing. He was alone apparently. And the police wrote this off as a suicide. He was like a young teenage boy. And the details of this case are. Are so creepy in my head as soon as I started looking into it, because his mom has this whole Facebook page. She has all these really detailed posts of everything that happened, like, in detail. I've never really seen that, like a parent do that. And somebody had sent it to us. And I'm diving through these details, like, this boy did not take his own life. How did the police think he did? And to this day, they haven't reopened the case. But she reached out to me or to Heath and I said the mom and said how much it meant to her to. To have us talk about it, because nobody was talking about it. I don't know if anybody else still has covered it.

[A]

But you don't think she did it?

[B]

No, I think somebody I. This was. I think we covered it like three years ago now. So I'd have to refresh myself on it. But I think somebody killed him 100%. I think somebody came into the house and then staged his death to look like a suicide in his backyard.

[A]

Like, because he was a kid, probably didn't do a whole lot of, like, research into whether it was actually suicide or not.

[B]

Sean's case, I think we called that case what happened to Sean, because that's what the page was called and that's what she was like, putting it out there as they're his mom, but it's so upsetting to see that. And this poor woman knows that her son didn't do that. He had, like, everything. He was, like, playing his video game right before and, like, he was home and, you know, he had gone to school that day and, like, it was very normal. And that doesn't mean that you can't take your own life if you have a normal day. But she knows that he didn't do it. And the details are so creepy that we know he didn't and the police aren't. Aren't doing what they need to do. It's just so sad.

[A]

Would you ever bring your podcast to the ID channel?

[B]

We did. We did a little something with ID. We interviewed Holly Madison for episode 500 a couple months ago. And so we were like, talking to the PR woman at ID and she was like, let's work together again. So she's emailed us since. So I think that would be really fun.

[A]

That would be really cool.

[B]

That would be down.

[A]

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[B]

Oh, my God, I hope I didn't butcher, like a thousand true crime details. It's just like, we cover so many that I'm like, the. Like, I can't even remember the year the case we covered last year or last week happened. You know, it's just like, crazy.

[A]

Do people remember? Like, people know your aunt disappeared, though, right? Like your listeners and stuff, because you. Yeah, okay.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I've talked. Well, we covered it in episode 200, I think, or maybe 100. Episode 100. It was episode 100, but I haven't covered it since. I was gonna, like, redo it recently, but I wrote a piece for Oprah Daly recently that came out about her disappearance, and, like, when I posted about it, most people already knew.

[A]

Well, what. What do you think is the best way for people to get their stories told for, like, the smaller stories that don't get the big media coverage? Like, what is the best way to get eyes on those cases? Cases?

[B]

It's really sad because families shouldn't have to put boots on the ground themselves because this is just something that happened to them.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But unfortunately, if the media isn't naturally picking it up and police aren't doing their due diligence, or the case is just cold and they don't have enough and that's not their fault. It's really unfortunate. But just like we're talking about Sean, his mom made a Facebook page. That's the only reason I found out about this story. So. And that's the only reason we covered it, because if she just stayed quiet, nobody would know that. That his. That her son probably did not take his own life and that he was murdered and justice still needs to be served. So I think trying to reach out to podcasts, a lot of families reach out to us, and we just try our best to, like, prioritize those cases again, if there's enough there that we can talk about. So, yeah, I think just reaching out to people as much as you can, making pages on social media, a lot of people we see on TikTok, like, Mara Murray's sister is still out there on Tick Tock trying to get Mara Murray's case out.

[A]

I don't know who that is.

[B]

That's One of, like, that's also another really big disappearance case that's super ambiguous. Like, she vanished from her car after, like, a minor car accident. I forget what. It's in the Northeast.

[A]

In the Northeast?

[B]

Yeah. That's a really big case. You should.

[A]

I actually didn't even know about the Karen Reed case until. Neither did I. I just learned about it, and I still haven't really. I only know what someone. What Beth Caris told me. I don't know anything about it.

[B]

Yeah, we. We covered that in. I was the first time I had heard about it, but it. It was already. There's so many. There's so many true crime cases out there.

[A]

My. One of my. At my high school, I think it was the math teacher, Mr. Green, that went missing on a hiking trail and just never came back. Did you know he was with a group of people? We have no idea what happened.

[B]

See, the hiking ones are always hard because a lot of people's minds go to, oh, they probably fell off a cliff. But that doesn't always happen.

[A]

Like, you fell off a cliff. But where was the rest of the group? And where's the body? Body. Like, he just never recovered. Never found the body.

[B]

How do you go missing if he was with a group? Did he, like, get separated?

[A]

Nobody knows. So they never.

[B]

Girl. Let's look into it some.

[A]

Like, we are covering this case. That's our next collab. What do you think is the most important detail to share with your audience when you're covering a. A true crime case?

[B]

I think just trying to humanize them. We always dive into the. Their early life, you know, and talk about their personality and what their family and friends thought of them. And I think it can sometimes come off as, oh, they lit up a room. You know, I didn't kind of. I'll know. I'll note that for your episode. But it's so. Sometimes it kind of seems like that when we do, you know, we're recording so many episodes and we're talking about it and we're saying how amazing everybody is. But it's like, I do think it's important that everybody gets their moment to talk about what they were interested in and have their family say, oh, they were going to be this. They were trying to do this, and not just talk about what happened to them. I feel like a lot of podcasts or shows just go straight to the murder, straight to the disappearance. And we really like to start the first, like, I don't know, maybe like 10 or 15 minutes about their background just to like, make people see that they were a person that was also not just murdered, but that they were a person.

[A]

Right. And that their life before they were murdered mattered.

[B]

Yeah. That they had so much life before.

[A]

Going back to the Night Watcher. You guys can buy this at Barnes and Noble, Amazon, wherever you guys get your books. But what was your favorite part about writing the Night Watcher?

[B]

I think just honestly, the scary parts of the book, because there's. Do you get scared easily?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. I think you'll be a little scared. The great. It was on. It was featured on CBS Morning Wings recently, and she said that the book should come with a warning that you can't read it at night.

[A]

So the Night Watcher, but don't read it at night.

[B]

Yeah, it's like. Because I. I really loved focusing on making the book as scary as I could because I love horror movies. Like, I have such a horror background. Like, I grew up watching a lot of Alfred Hitchcock and Universal monster movies and just always loving horror across the board.

[A]

Do you read the horror genre? Have you read.

[B]

Not really.

[A]

I just got Tender Is the Flesh. I have not read it yet.

[B]

Okay. I feel like. I know I bought a different book that sounds like that recently. You haven't read it? What's it about?

[A]

No, but it's horror. It's in the horror genre. I feel like it's a cannibal.

[B]

I think I knew you were gonna say that. Okay, like, good for you for writing that, love. But that's my problem is I feel like a lot of horror books. Like, I read a horror book recently. I mean, I wouldn't call it a horror book. I think it has horror themes, but it's very inconspicuous. It's called Bloom by Delilah Dawson, and it's a cannibalistic story. And I didn't really get that at first. And then I was like, oh. And now every time I think about it, I'm like, oh, sick to your stomach. But I feel like so many horror books are, like, about eating people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I don't like that.

[A]

I think there's another one that I have that I got. Is it called Brother?

[B]

I don't like gore.

[A]

No. So horror is not. Not it.

[B]

I like horror because I like being scared, like, fictionally. But I like. Like, I read thrillers more because I like the, like, tension building and the creepiness of that. But I do. I do think it's really hard for me to find a book that scares me. I actually read a book called Diavola by Jennifer Thorne. It's. It's like a horror. And it takes place in Italy, and it's this girl who goes on vacation with her, like, horrible family that you just hate so much because they're just terrible people. And so I also don't love that because I'm like, the whole time, like, I hate every last one of you.

[A]

Because you're so rude. Yeah.

[B]

You know, but it's about this, like, demon in the house, like, in this old Italian villa.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And she describes the woman standing behind her in the mirror with, like, bright yellow hair and, like, hovering directly behind her every time she looks in the mirror. So I think horror in that way. Like, when I go to the bathroom in the night, I think about her behind me, you know? So I like that kind of horror.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So. So I think that's why write it. Night Watcher was fun and focusing on how to make, like, the perfect serial killer almost. But also make it realistic to when we learn everything, right? Like, oh, yeah, that would happen. And kind of use my knowledge, but kind of tweak the. The really scary parts and just make them really, really scary. That was super fun.

[A]

Did you read Butcher and Blackbird? No. Okay. That's like a serial killer vibe that you might like. It has a lot of dark humor, though.

[B]

Butcher and the Blackbird.

[A]

Butcher and Blackbird. Yeah.

[B]

Okay, I'll check it out.

[A]

And I think they' there's a sequel to it, too.

[B]

Oh, cool. I love that. Like, stalking, lurking like someone's behind.

[A]

Romance.

[B]

Yeah, I need the romance. There's a little romance in my book. Do you like romance?

[A]

I like dark romance. It's like, btk Bind. Bind me up, girl.

[B]

Have you seen that picture of him? No, Girl, look it up.

[A]

Look up.

[B]

Look up. BTK.

[A]

He's not cute.

[B]

No. Well, he's. We. He. Do you know that he would put on his victim's clothes and.

[A]

Yeah. And wear them, the girls stuff and everything.

[B]

Have you seen the pictures of it, though?

[A]

Know he's, like, very homely looking. You know what? He reminds me of Walt from Breaking Bad. Like this. What's his name?

[B]

Brian Cranston.

[A]

Like, he could play BTK in a movie.

[B]

He should call Brian up.

[A]

He was married to his wife. Even through, like, he's 80 years old now. Wow.

[B]

Wait, he's married now?

[A]

I thought it said he was made. They divorced in 2005. But, like, that would be crazy if she stayed with him while he went to prison.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Scary. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, he's also a Pisces. Wow.

[B]

No. What does that say about you, Kale?

[A]

I mean, there's nobody I want to kill, though. Anyways, where can people find your podcast? And where can people find your book? And where can people find you?

[B]

Going west is available anywhere you listen to your podcast. Night Watchers. It's, like, still coming out in bookstores. Like, a lot of people are dming me. Like, I can't find your book in person, so it's still, like, rolling out. It's. I think Barnes and Noble is, like, you're gonna find it there, unless they sold out of copies or something. And. But, like, it's at the Strand. Like, I'm gonna go see it at the Strand, you know, because why not maybe sign some copies? But, like, it's on Amazon. It's Target.com, but it's not at Target. Okay, so, like, just go online and.

[A]

You'Ll find it, and then where can people find you on social media? Media.

[B]

Oh, okay. My Instagram is at Daphne Wolsencroft, and then I'm also on Tik Tok at Daphne Wool.

[A]

Perfect.

[B]

I. I've been making videos lately.

[A]

I'm proud of you.

[B]

I'm trying to put myself out there.

[A]

Book Talk will be good for Night Watcher.

[B]

Yes, Book talk, absolutely.

[A]

Thank you so much for coming on Barely Famous.

[B]

Thank you. Kayl was so fun.

[A]

Yeah. Sam Foreign.

[B]

Hi, I'm Adam Rippon, and this is Intrusive Thoughts, the podcast where I finally.

[A]

Say the stuff out loud that's been.

[B]

Living rent free in my head for years. From dumb decisions to awkward moments I probably should have kept to myself. Nothing's off limits. Yes, I'm talking about the time I lost my phone mid flight and still haven't truly emotionally recovered from that. There might be too many sound effects. I've been told to chill. Will I? Unclear. But if you've ever laid awake at night cringing at something you said five years ago, congratulations. You found your people.

[A]

Intrusive Thoughts with Adam Rippon is available now.

[B]

Wherever you get your podcasts. This September, CBS hits are streaming free on Pluto tv for this month only. You can watch full seasons of the.

[A]

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[B]

Go back to where it all began in NCIS origins. Or watch the hilarious hauntings of ghosts, all for free. Full seasons of the CBS shows you love this month only on Pluto tv.

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Pay never.

[A]

The questions start early.

[B]

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