Todd Bookman (0:00)

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Hulu Stable in the Family the Fall of Ruby Frankie all episodes now streaming on Hulu. Jack in the Box's new banana French toast sticks starting at $2.99 are the same French toast sticks you love now. Banana flavored and served with chocolate dipping sauce. So good. And another way Jack gives you so much more. I'm Todd Bookman, a reporter at New Hampshire Public Radio. For the last six months, I've been thinking a lot about a cat named Sergeant Tibbs who goes missing, who's then found, and who would land at the center of so much human pain, anger and and confusion. It's not about the cat anymore. It's just about everything else. The final days of Sergeant Tibbs. A new podcast from NHPR about what we owe our pets and each other. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts. Previously on Bear Brook. Season 2 A True Crime story. The jury is listening to you. You sound like a criminal, not a guy that's made a terrible mist. Sergeant, it's not that easy. I hope that you understand that. I'm just thinking, this is my son. They're trying to pin this murder on him. And the word immunity is rolling around in my head. We had a co defendant and if we could dump it on Jason Carroll to get our guy off, we would have. But we didn't even go in that direction. I mean, that confession was terrible. What was the first indication that you got that something was going on? First indication was Jason was not in the house. And it's like, where's Jason all three of us kids kept asking that. This is Jackie Carroll Hughes, Jason Carroll's sister, the youngest of four children in the Carroll family. The night her brother was arrested. Jackie was 12 years old that night. Jackie didn't know that police had interrogated her oldest brother over the last four days. She had no idea he'd been accused of murder, no idea he'd confessed. She just knew something was up. Her parents were acting weird, and her brother wasn't around. It wasn't until our mom came home the night he was arrested from the Bedford pd And we all come up off the couch at the same time, and, where's Jason? She goes, just get your jackets on and let's go. And we went down to the police department. Jackie says the three kids, about 12, 14, and 16 years old, were led into a room with Jason and state police. You know, Jason's handcuffed in the front, didn't even take his handcuffs off. Said, you have five minutes, and, you know, we're trying to give goodbyes as best we could, and literally five minutes, that's all we got. And I want to say it was Roland Lamey that grabbed, you know, Jason by the upper arm and ushered him to a side door to take him out. And I followed. You know, we always could go with Jason. And another man grabbed me and said, no, you can't go. And he was gone. Jason's arrest for the murder of Sharon Johnson and her unborn baby was all over the news. Karen Carroll says people vandalized their house. Jackie says she and her siblings were bullied at school. And for me, it was not just the kids, but one of my teachers. We were having a test, and the bell rang, and she's the teacher that wants you to hand her the papers. I handed her mine as one of the last ones, and I handed her mine. And it was a tug of war. And I'm like, I can just take it, you know? And she just leaned into me, and that's what she said. I hope he writes in hell. And that was over with. According to Jackie, she actually punched her teacher. I took a couple swings at her. A few years after Jason's arrest, the Carroll family moved to South Carolina. Jackie was able to talk with her brother less and less. I truly felt like we were abandoning Jason, and I still feel that way. Jackie says her parents didn't make it easy for her to stay in touch with Jason, and it always bothered her. So in 1995, after she graduated high school, Jackie made up her mind to get in her car and visit Jason on her own. That was our first physical reunion, my first solo road trip. Where did the idea for that come from? How did that happen? I just said it. I'm going to see Jason. I had friends up here. I could still stay with them and that's what I did. What was it like to see Jason again? It was awesome. It was so awesome. The last time I had touched him, he has this thing he does with his toes to aggravate me. He purposely will sit beside me, wiggle his toes, and I would just grab in, freaking twist them. So that was the last contact I had with him until March of 95. And it was like, it was awesome. I didn't want to leave. If I could have stayed with him, I would have stayed. I think I cried all the way back as far as New York. Throughout all of this, Jackie says she knew very little of what had actually happened in her brother's case. Jackie says this is because her parents, Jack and Karen Carroll, just didn't really talk to the rest of the kids about what was going on with Jason. According to Jackie, she learned more about her brother's case from the news on tv. What do you make of it? I think people will be confused to hear that, like how I'm confused too. I mean my, I mean my mom and I have had discussions as adults. You know, she swears that she spoke to us, not my, My sister and I talked. Recall it, we would add a better understanding. And we were always a quiet family. And then when this happened, we moved away. It was even more quiet. It was deafening. It was so silent. But Jackie knew a place where she might find some answers. A place many kids know to look in for the things adults don't want them to see. Their parents closet. Jackie knew there was a copy of the discovery documents from Jason's case in her parents closet. Huge. Three ring binders with thousands of pages of police reports and court papers. Jackie says one day she marched into her parents room and claimed it. Back then the room that's off limits is your parents bedroom. And it was me and my dad home that day. And I just got up and I went in there where they kept him in the closet and he's watching because it's off limits. And I came out, he saw what I had and he didn't say a word to me. And that's where it started. For the first time, Jackie was able to look directly at what led to her brother's arrest. It was part grieving, part mystery solving. I just picked up A book started reading. I knew something wasn't right, but I didn't know what wasn't right. Studying the documents became an obsession. Jackie read and re read the binders. She took notes and dog eared pages. The binders survived. Year after year, move after move, I got the feeling that if the house had ever caught fire, Jackie would have saved the binders first. She felt somehow the answer to all of this, or at least the breadcrumbs for how to find it, were somewhere in those pages. Was there a part of you that was anxious when you first started looking at the discovery documents that like, maybe I'm going to find evidence of Jason's guilt in here? I wouldn't think in that way. I don't think my anxiety had even kicked in. I was just reading and laying out the case. So I. I put the relationship aside and I just started investigating. If he's guilty, he's guilty. If he's not, we're gonna prove this. This is Bear Brook Season 2 A True Crime Story. I'm Jason Mo. Do you have saving money written down as one of your New Year's resolutions? What if you could make that automatic? Acorns makes it easy to start automatically saving and investing so your money has a chance to grow for you, your kids and your retirement. You don't need to be an expert because Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that fits you and your money money goals. And guess what? You also don't need to be rich because Acorns lets you invest with the spare money you've got right now. 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Jack in the Box's new banana French toast sticks starting at $2.99 are the same french toast sticks you love now. Banana flavored and served with chocolate dipping sauce. So good. And another way Jack gives you so much. By 1992, pressure was mounting on New Hampshire state prosecutors to hold someone responsible for the murder of Sharon Johnson. Ken Johnson and Tony Puff were walking free. Detective Roland Lammy's credibility was being questioned in the press. The trial of Jason Carroll might be their last chance to notch a win. So far, it seemed like everything was going the defendant's way. But Jason's lawyers were anxious. They knew the state would learn from what happened at Tony's trial. I always thought that the defendant that went first that was found not guilty. I think the state figures out the problems they had with the case. And if you're second in line, I always thought that was the. I agree. Hung juries too. The state changes tweaks their case or they recognize the weaknesses of their case and they get a practice run. This is Cliff Kinghorn and Eric Wilson, two of the attorneys who represented Jason. You met Cliff earlier. He had that big argument with Jason's mom. Eric, who is also a former Marine, worked under cliff back in 1992. I was working for Cliff and Steve. I was still in law school at the time. I was in my second year of law school. The third member of the team was Steve Maynard, Cliff's partner at their law firm. Cliff once told a reporter at the end of every day he and Steve would sit down together and have a beer. And we always only have one beer. Cliff joked. Steve Maynard died last year, so you won't hear from him, but you will hear more about him. So Cliff, his partner and friend Steve, and Eric, the apprentice. Together they went into Jason's trial in February of 1992. In many ways, Jason's trial was a rehash of Tony's. Many of the same witnesses testified and the same lack of physical evidence meant again, everything would rest on whether the jury believed Jason's confession tapes. But it wasn't exactly the same. There were some key differences that strengthened the prosecution's hand. Remember how in Tony's trial, Jason's confession was some of the defense's best evidence. Tony's lawyers pointed out all the differences between the stories Jason and Tony told about the murder. Jason's attorneys wanted to do the same thing. They wanted Jason's jury to hear Tony's confession. We tried to get his statement in to Jason's jury so they could see how the two confessions to the same crime just didn't match. And Judge Murphy ruled it was not admissible. Tony's confession was not admissible as evidence in Jason's trial. It was hearsay. Remember, the hearsay rule generally does not allow into a trial statements made outside of court. Tony's lawyers were able to sidestep this because police interrogated Tony after Jason. Tony's confession was shaped by Jason's, and so Tony's jury got to hear both. Jason's lawyers couldn't use that argument since Jason's confessions were taped first. The upshot of all this is that Jason's jury did not hear Tony's confession. They did not learn about the differences in their stories. They heard Jason's confessions on their own. Another key difference, Detective Lammy during Tony's trial, he played right into the defense's strategy. When he got caught breaking the rule about not speaking to other witnesses. Lammy was not going to make the same mistake twice. The judge did tell the jurors in Jason's trial that Lammy had violated a court order in an earlier proceeding, but it didn't have the same impact. Still, Jason's lawyers tried to run largely the same defense that had acquitted Tony. There's no physical evidence. The confession can't be true. And it was all thanks to an intimidating and reckless detective. How can you undercut that confession to show the confession was coerced and it was not reliable? That had to be. There really is no other defense to a confession case other than the confessions. A false confession. There were a number of things Jason said in his confessions that just didn't line up with the physical evidence. I'm going to walk you through five of them. Five problems the defense said made Jason's confessions unreliable. Problem one, the knife. The state medical examiner originally estimated that the length of the knife used to murder Sharon Johnson was, quote, probably at least in the neighborhood of 4 inches, perhaps could be longer. There were two blades on Jason's pocket knife. The longer one was 2 and 18 inches long. Now, the medical examiner made his original estimate based on the depth of the wound in Sharon's back, the deepest of the 14 stab wounds. But during Tony and Jason's trials, he backs out of that estimate. He says his measurement may have been imprecise because Sharon's lung had collapsed. And he maintains that the stab wounds in Sharon's chest are consistent with Jason's pocket knife. The implication from Jason's attorneys was that the medical examiner was conveniently changing his scientific opinion to fit the state's narrative about Jason's pocket knife as the murder weapon. Problem two, the lineup. Jason has been shown two folders with eight photographs of eight white males, insane, all numbered. During Jason's final recorded interrogation, police show him a photo lineup. One of the eight photos is of Ken Johnson. Of the eight people in that lineup, Jason has recognized and pointed out the male subject in number five. And would you tell me again, Jason, why you focus your attention on the individual in number five? Because I remember the black beard. Jason says number five is Ken Johnson. Only number five is not Ken Johnson. And Ken did not have a beard. The day of the murder, Jason could not identify the man who allegedly paid him to murder his wife, who Jason told police was there during the murder. I've seen the photo lineup. Ken is number two, the photo right above the one Jason picks. Problem three, the diagrams. On the day in between Jason's two taped confessions, police had him draw a diagram of the area where Sharon's body was found. Jason drew three. I've seen all three of Jason's drawings. I've seen aerial photographs of the scene. I've seen a videotape of the scene. There is just no way to make Jason's drawings map onto reality. He never draws the pond that Sharon's body was found at the edge of. He draws a foundation that does not exist. He draws a road running by the area that in reality is more than a mile away from where Sharon's body was found. Problem four, the stereo. You might remember Jason originally said he spent the money Ken paid him for the murder on marijuana. But later he said he used the money to buy new tires and a stereo system for his truck. Jason didn't own his truck. He leased it on a handshake deal with a guy he once worked with. That guy testified at Jason's trial. He said he had to repossess the truck because Jason couldn't make the payments. When he took it back, he said the truck did not have new tires or a new stereo. In fact, he says the truck was in terrible shape. And then there was problem number five. The diary. When Jason. When all this happened and Jason got arrested, I went to my father and I'm like, dad, there's no way we were gone this weekend. Debbie Dutra was friends with Jason in The summer of 1988, the summer of the murder. By the way, this is a different Debbie, not the one who met Jason cruising on Elm Street. This Debbie's best friend was Jason's girlfriend at the time. He hung out with us all the time. We were always together, all of us. When the news of Jason's arrest broke, Debbie could not believe it at first because she just couldn't imagine her friend doing something like that. But then she really couldn't believe it because she remembered she was with Jason just a few days after the murder. Sharon was murdered on a Thursday night. And according to the final version of Jason's confessions, he and Tony went to Ken's house on Saturday morning to collect their payment. But Debbie remembered that Saturday, Jason was with her and two other people on a trip to a lake about an hour north. So Debbie, who's around 18 at the time, tells her father, she's going to call the police. I said, I gotta say something, Dad. I said, I can't not say anything. And so my father listened. On the other end, we had the landlines and said, listen, this is what's happening. I know he wasn't there because he was with us. And that's why Lammy showed up at our door. When detectives first questioned her about this trip, Debbie says they tried hard to convince her she was confused. According to Debbie, they kept saying she must be thinking about a different weekend. She says eventually she caved and said she must have been thinking of Labor Day weekend. But privately, Debbie still thought she was right. And then she remembered she had proof. Her diary. It confirmed Jason was with her that Saturday morning. My biggest concern with it was I didn't want it being publicized. That's like a diary, you know, it's a girl's diary. It had stuff in there I didn't want anyone to know. Debbie eventually did turn over her diary, and she was the defense's first witness at Jason's trial. And it wasn't just Debbie's diary that undermined Jason's story about getting paid. In his confession, Jason says he and Tony got to ken's house around 11 or 11:30 that Saturday morning to get the money. But that morning, the police were also at Ken's house. They were staked out outside, surveilling the house and making a log of everyone who came and went. But prosecutors seized on the fact that the police surveillance didn't start until 11:30am and Debbie's diary didn't say exactly what time they left for the lake that morning. So in theory, it is still possible that Jason and Tony went to Ken's earlier in the morning, before the police were watching the house and before Jason went to the lake with his friends. The knife, the lineup, the diagrams, the stereo, the diary. Jason's lawyers made their case for why the confession simply could not be true. Now they turn their attention to Detective Lammy. Steve Maynard tells the jury Lammy fancies himself a quote. Kojak throwback Cliff says, you can hear how Lammy coerced Jason right there on the tapes. There's so many inconsistencies. I mean, even in Jason's statement. Who stabbed her first? Ken did. You sure it was Ken? No, it was me. I mean, Jason just kept flipping. You could just see the pressure he was on or whatever they wanted to hear. Jason was going to tell him. They could have asked him at that point in time if he believed in Santa Claus. He probably would have said yes if he thought that's what they wanted to hear. But the defense didn't rely simply on the tapes. They also had a witness, a person they argued could have easily been sitting where Jason was because Lammy had used all the same tricks on him. The witness's name was George Scott McDonald. George worked with Jason and Tony at High Tech Fire Prevention, the restaurant exhaust cleaning company. George was a manager at High Tech and about eight years older than Jason and Tony, George was actually an important witness for both sides. George testifies the night of Sharon's murder. He thinks he saw Jason drop off Tony for work. The state liked that because it put two of the three alleged conspirators together the night of the murder. But the defense liked George because of what he had to say about Detective Lammy. George tells a story about Lammy that sounds an awful lot like what Tony's and now Jason's lawyers say happened to them. George, like Tony, had some pre existing legal problems when Lammy first talked to him in October of 1989. The month before police interrogated and arrested Jason and Tony. George had a habit of giving cops fake names when they pulled him over so they wouldn't arrest him for driving without a license. He was also fraudulently collecting workers comp payments. After their first meeting, Lammie knew all of this about George, told him he knew but didn't have him arrested for his outstanding warrants. The implication from Jason's lawyers was that Lammy was holding the charges over his head as leverage. Just like what Tony's lawyers say happened to him. And just like with Tony, Lammy does make some of the charges against George disappeared. George also testifies that before Jason and Tony were arrested, Lammy told him he suspected them both. Now, if that's true, it would mean that Lammy already thought Jason was involved in the murder before that first interrogation at the armory. Lammy denies this in his own testimony, he says Jason was not a suspect before their first meeting. George testifies. Eventually, Lammie began to suspect him of being involved in the murder too. George says over a series of 10 to 12 meetings, Lammie accused him of taking part in the murder. In his testimony, Lammy denies this, but George says that one time Lammy even drove him out to the construction site where Sharon's body was found and asked him if the area looked familiar to him. Lammy denies this. Even after Jason and Tony gave confessions that do not include mentions of George whatsoever, George says Lammie continued to suspect him of being involved. He says Lammie told him the two boys weren't smart enough to pull this off on their own. He must have helped them plan it. According to George, Lammy even told him that Jason implicated George in his confession, which is not true. Again, Lammie denies ever accusing George of the murder. But George says Lammie told him he knew he was guilty, he should confess and things would go easier for him. George says he was scared by all this, but ultimately he didn't confess like Tony or Jason. Jason's lawyers said that was because George was older, had more experience dealing with cops. In short, they argued he was less vulnerable to Lammy's pressure campaign than the two 19 year olds who worked under George. So that was the defense Jason's lawyers put on, problems with the confession that made it impossible and an overbearing detective whose theory of the case always seemed to come before the evidence to support it. But just as they'd feared, the state had learned from Tony's trial. This time around, prosecutors were better prepared to fight back against the onslaught of inconsistencies in the Confession. This time, they zeroed in on their own set of moments. From the confession tapes, prosecutors said there were two moments in particular, two things Jason said that did line up with reality in a way that was so damning, it proved he committed the murder. It's important to point out that most of the information about Sharon's murder was in the news before Jason was interrogated. And that allowed the defense to argue that that's where Jason could have gotten the info from. He knew details about the murder, not because he was there, but in the same way that you now know details about the murder from a journalist. But not everything was reported. Prosecutors said investigators intentionally withheld two facts, that Sharon was stabbed in the back and that her bra had been opened. Those were things prosecutors said only the killer would know, and Jason included both in his confessions. It is a little more complicated than that. At first, Jason says there were two stabs in Sharon's back. So he's right about a stab in the back. But at least at one point, he's wrong about the number and the bra. Well, here's how Jason describes what happened with Sharon's bra in his final taped interrogation. And keep in mind here, the correct answer is that Sharon's bra was cut open in the front with a knife. How was the bra taken off? The bra, it was unsnapped. Unsnapped or torn? You recall cut, torn, unsnapped, pulled over her head? To me. To me, the way it was going, it seemed like it was unsnapped, snapped in the front of the back. In the back. From what it seems like he was reaching around her to the back. What was more convincing, the problems in Jason's confession or the allegedly hidden facts in Jason's confession? Was Jason coerced and intimidated by Lammy and his mother, or was he coerced and intimidated by his own conscience? After a trial that lasted about a week, it was now up to the jury to decide could they be certain Jason was guilty. The deliberation after the trial with the jurors, that was somewhat tense. We had a couple of people. We had both ends of the spectrum. Juror Tom Dufresne says at first, he was somewhere in the middle. On the one hand, he didn't find Detective Lammy to be credible at all. I still, to this day, wouldn't believe him if he told me it was 11:30, you know, and just his whole attitude and demeanor, you know, you're dealing with people's lives here. And he just acted like he was no nonchalant that was not credible to me. But on the big question, but ultimately, did you find, were you convinced that Jason was guilty of the crime? Oh, yeah, he admitted to, if I recall correctly, admitting to stabbing her at least once. This is a horrible crime. I mean, that's, you know, why would you say that if you didn't do it? Mark Faneuf was another juror he didn't see any problem with. Lammy, thought he was entirely credible. And the fact that Jason didn't have an alibi helped convince him. Maybe at the beginning there were some people who thought that he wasn't involved. And then as we spent more time with the evidence, I think everyone came to the spot that he was there, but couldn't be definitive whether he physically was involved. It seems the jury was convinced Jason was involved, but for some reason they weren't convinced he was the one who actually stabbed Sharon. Tom says the way the story read to him, of the three alleged murderers, Jason was the least responsible to him. It seemed like Jason was a decent kid who got roped into this by the real villains, Tony and Ken. We kind of knew that there were other people involved, but they weren't being, they weren't in this trial. And Jason's participation in it was certainly, at the least, I guess he did admit to stabbing the woman, but he shouldn't have had the full weight of punishment put on him. I don't think whether it was because they weren't certain if Jason had actually swung the blade himself or that they just felt sympathy for him. The jury could not agree on the first degree murder charge. So we went back to the judge and we asked if we could find them or find them guilty of a lesser crime. And we were told no. The jury didn't have discretion on the murder charge. But that wasn't the only thing Jason was charged with. He was also charged with kidnapping and conspiracy to commit murder. And so a conflicted jury came down with a conflicted verdict. Deadlocked. On the charge of first degree murder, not guilty on the charge of kidnapping, guilty. On the charge of conspiracy to commit murder. If you're confused by this, so am I. The evidence for these charges is the Jason's confession. If you believe Jason's confession, he was guilty of all three. But juries are human. And as much as the court system may claim to be a venue for finding absolute truth, at the end of the day, in a criminal jury trial, the truth is really just what 12 people can agree on. Jason was now a convicted felon. He would later be sentenced to six to 14 years in prison on this charge. The state had finally held someone at least partially responsible for Sharon's murder. But the jury deadlocked on the most serious charge. And that meant the state would retry the case, the stories would be told again, and another jury would get to decide what was true. We took a vote right off the bat and it was pretty much split down the middle. That's after the break. Don't miss the Hulu original docu series Devil in the Family the Fall of Ruby Frankie My wife creating a YouTube channel. Thumbs up. Subscribe, but only what we wanted to show. I'm still recording a three part series of that. She said the children were demonically possessed. Get out. That blew the powder keg. Ruby crossed a line to psychotic. All right, I'm on emergency. Open the door. Hulu Stubble in the Family the Fall of Ruby Frankie. All episodes now streaming on Hulu. Colon cancer is considered one of the most preventable but least prevented cancers. That's why screening for colon cancer is critical. Sometimes people want to avoid the drama of screening with a colonoscopy. You know, the prep, the downtime, all of it. Thankfully, there's the Cologuard test, a non invasive screening option for adults 45 and older at average risk that is delivered right to your door. Early detection is critical. When caught early, colon cancer is survivable in 90% of the cases. With the Cologuard test, the process is simple. The test is delivered to your door. You send the sample back to the lab and get results within two weeks. The best part? The Cologuard test is covered by most insurance plans. 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That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit RosettaStone.com pod50 to get started and claim your 50% off today. Don't miss out. Go to RosettaStone.com pod50 and start learning today. Wow. What's up? I just bought and financed a car through Carvana in minutes. You, the person who agonized four weeks over whether to paint your walls eggshells, sell or off white, bought and financed a car in minutes. They made it easy, transparent terms, customizable down and monthly. Didn't even have to do any paperwork. Wow. Hey, have you checked out that spreadsheet I sent you for our dinner? Options Finance your car with Carvana and experience total control financing subject to credit approval. One night in the spring of 1992, after Jason's first trial, Jason's lawyers, Cliff and Steve, were leaving the jail. After talking to Jason in the car on the drive back, they got into a heated discussion. Steve and I never had harsh words. And Steve told me that night on the way back, he said, you crossed the line today. He said, you really leaned on him pretty hard. And I said, you know, Steve, you're probably right. I probably did cross the line. But it was a line I didn't mind crossing. Cliff and Steve had just told Jason about a major new development. The state was offering him a new last minute plea deal. Prosecutors were making another play at getting Jason to testify against Ken. The lead prosecutor, Michael Ramsdell, wouldn't talk to me, so I can't corroborate this. And Jason told me he can't remember much of anything about his trials, including this moment. But as Cliff remembers it, the state was offering only a handful more years in prison for Jason if he would just testify against Ken. Cliff says Jason refused. Ironically, it was the kind of deal that Karen Carroll says Lammy had promised them in the beginning. But this time it was official and Cliff knew it was by far the best deal Jason would ever get. Losing at trial could cost him another 40 years or more. So he begged Jason, take the deal. If that's the truth, what you told Lambie and your mother, if that's the truth, why would you want to take the risk of spending 30, 40 years in the New Hampshire State Prison? For the love of God, don't roll the dice. I'm begging you, don't roll the dice. Many defense attorneys don't worry about the actual truth of their client's guilt or innocence. Their job is the same either way. Provide the best defense for their client, but for Cliff. When Jason refused to take this deal before his second trial, it affected him. He couldn't shake the thought that the only reason Jason would refuse this deal was if he was really innocent. And I always said to myself, that statement can't be true. Something's wrong here. Something's, why the hell would you not want to testify? I'm not testifying. I'm not going to do it. He never, ever changed when he made that mind up. He never changed it in any way, shape or form. Jason's second trial went much the same as the first. The defense pointed at Lammy, pointed at the problems in Jason's confession. The prosecutors pointed at the hidden facts in Jason's confession, and they also actually embraced the errors in what Jason said. In his closing argument of the second trial, prosecutor Michael Ramsdell says, if this was all a setup by police, why wasn't the confession more consistent? Why does Jason get things wrong if the cops are telling him what to say? To Michael, it was like the mistakes in Jason's confessions were the coffee stain on the paper that proved it wasn't a counterfeit to him. The hidden facts that Jason knew proved he was there, and the public facts that Jason got wrong proved he wasn't set up by police. Michael argued the other reason the jurors should believe Jason's confession was, was the emotion. He told the jurors to re listen to the entire tape of Jason confessing to his mother. To really listen, to feel it. Michael said, the emotions in the tape make clear what's going on. A young man admitting a terrible secret to his own mother. If you put a knife. If you put a knife in that woman, I want to know. You stabbed her, didn't you? Yes, I did. How many times did you stab her? All right. Michael Ramsdell told the jury that emotion is powerful. It's compelling. It allows you to feel with every fiber in your body. He did kill Sharon Johnson. Steve Maynard argued the closing for Jason. He pointed to that same emotion as the reason the jury shouldn't believe the confession. Steve called Jason's interrogation a psychological bludgeoning. He said, there is no way you can listen to that tape and believe that kid had anything left, any free will left. He was destroyed. He was destroyed by his mother. He was destroyed by Sergeant Lammy. We listened to that recording many, many times, over and over. That I remember. The jurors in Jason's second trial deliberated for four days. Dan Filley was one of them. As Dan remembers it, he and the rest of the jurors all believed Jason's confession was the truth. But another juror, Deborah Carr, remembers it differently. We took a vote right off the bat, and it was pretty much split down the middle. Deborah says some of the jurors had concerns about the way the police interrogated Jason. We did all agree that it was coerced. He was pressured. He had his mother and the. I believe it was the state police detective hounding him, so we didn't even take that into consideration. But despite her belief that Jason's confession was coerced, Deborah, like Dan, still thought it was the truth. I don't think it was false, but I do believe that he was pressured into confessing. The defendant knew something that wasn't out in the public eye, something only somebody who had been there would have known. The day before they started deliberating, the judge agreed with state prosecutors that the jury could have the option of finding Jason guilty of second degree murder instead of first degree. First degree murder is premeditated. Second degree is not. Now, to the state, the truth was that Jason accepted money to commit a murder, clearly first degree. But prosecutors were willing to have Jason convicted even if it wasn't on their theory of the case. As jurors like Dan and Deborah were trying to come to consensus, Jason waited in a holding cell at the courthouse. When I asked Jason what he remembers about waiting for the verdict, he told me a story about a spider. I'd be laying down, and then one day I noticed a spider on the floor walking towards me. Jason says in the long hours of waiting alone to find out what was going to happen to his life, a spider kept walking towards him. So it kept coming my way. And I'm not a big fan of spiders. So I got up and went to the other side, to the other bench on the other side of the holding cell. And I'm sitting there, and the next thing you know, I noticed this damn spider coming at me again from the other direction. At first it was just a nuisance, just a spider that he happened to be trapped with. But the longer it went on, the more Jason started to think, is this what the rest of my life is going to be? And I remember thinking myself, it's just a sign to come or something. You know, I'm gonna be counting bricks and spiders all day long. Then, you know, they bring me upstairs because they found the verdict. And then you stand up and they find you guilty. And you look them over at them and they're crying and didn't even seem like I was standing there, I couldn't believe it. Jason took it just the way I would have expected him to. He wasn't shocked. He took it on the chin, but, I mean, he didn't become emotional about it. I always thought Jason should have been in the Marine Corps, for God's sake. He could be so stoic sometimes. It drove me crazy. Sometimes I had to get him to be emotional. After 30 hours of deliberation, the jury found Jason Carroll guilty of second degree murder. Later, a judge sentenced him to 40 years to life in prison in addition to his earlier sentence. Here's juror Dan Filley. Again, that's a big accusation for someone to come out and admit that they did something when they didn't do it. Robbing somebody or stealing something out of grocery store is one thing, but the consequences are heavy here. So you want to really think about that. I don't think that someone would just come out and just say, yeah, okay, I did it. Juror Deborah Carr says in the years since Jason's trial, she's come to understand that people do falsely confess to crimes they didn't commit. Deborah spoke with my colleague Paul Cuno Booth at her home. The dog was in the next room. I don't think that happened here. I just believe that he was part of that, that he was there and he was, you know, he was part of it. They strangled her and stabbed her. After the jury convicted Jason, they were allowed to learn for the first time that Tony and Ken had not been convicted. For some, it was a shock. It was kind of. Kind of takes you back a little bit. I mean, here's this one individual who seemed to be like a straight going guy and, you know, being convicted of this and the actual person who hired him to do the deed got away. You know, it was just kind of frustrating to see that somebody like this actually got away with it and this individual got life in prison or whatever it was, 30 years or whatever. It's something I heard from jurors in Jason's first trial too, like Tom Dufresne. A sense of imbalance in the justice that was meted out. I remember having a conversation with a couple of gentlemen as we left and saying that, you know, it just doesn't, it's not right. You know, I remember telling people the kid got screwed, and I was not, not happy with the results after the fact. But, you know, given the circumstances, I wouldn't, I don't think I'd change my mind, you know, today. But especially the fact that he's still in prison. That's ridiculous. That's. That ain't right. But this was exactly why the jurors weren't allowed to know this information. In the eyes of the court, justice shouldn't be relative, although it sometimes can seem arbitrary. After the jury returned its verdict, about a year or so afterwards, the second jury. I was at southern New Hampshire for a medical. Minor medical procedure, and the nurse that was working with me said to me, do you remember me? And I said, no, I'm sorry, I don't. She said, I was one of the jurors on the second Jason Carroll murder case. She said, I was an. I was chosen as an alternate. I didn't take part in the deliberations. And she said, I have to tell you, if I had been on that jury, hell would have frozen over before I would have convicted that kid. I'll never forget that as long as I live. That's the luck of alternates. She said, I listened to that confession. I listened to him sobbing, and I have a young son. And I just said, there's no way I'm going to pay any attention to that. In 1994, the New Hampshire Supreme Court took up Jason's case. On appeal, Jason's lawyers argued his confession should never have been allowed in because he was coerced by his mother. In the decision that the Supremes came down with, they acknowledged, had Karen been acting as a police officer, then Jason's will would certainly have been overborne. But they. They said that she was acting in the capacity as a mother, not a police officer. In their decision, the state Supreme Court writes, without Karen Carroll's frenzied, emotional and insistent questioning of her son, the defendant may well not have confessed consistently. It was her questioning, not Lammy's, that reduced the defendant to tears and preceded his crucial admissions. Our Constitution would not tolerate such conduct by a state actor. But here, Karen Carroll conducted herself in her private capacity as a mother. Jason says he was outside on the prison baseball field when he found out in the newspaper that the appeal had failed. His options had run out. For the next few decades, virtually nothing happened with Jason's case. Cliff, Steve, and Eric didn't represent him anymore. He couldn't afford to hire anybody. As far as Jason could tell, it was over. But outside the prison walls, it was not. Two things were in motion that would lead us to where we are now. One, Jason's sister, Jackie. She helped push Jason to write to the New England Innocence Project. And when the lawyers showed interest, Jackie knew what she had to do. The binders of discovery documents, the symbols of what had happened to her family that Jackie had obsessed, grieved and pored over. It was time to let them go. In 2016, Jackie packed the binders in a car and made a road trip from Texas, where she lived at the time, to Massachusetts to meet with the innocence lawyers. She brought her eldest daughter when she finally realized when these four women approach us in the lobby, she realized just exactly what I was handing over. This was like my life's work and she knew what that meant to me. And she looked at me and she literally had tears in her eyes. She says, mommy, are you sure? Jason's attorney with the New England Innocence Project tells me the fact that Jackie saved the discovery documents was huge. In cases this old, documents often go missing. The binders jump started the work on getting Jason's case back into court. The other thing in motion over the past 30 years, our understanding of confessions. While Jason sat in prison, a revolution was underway. Alarming evidence from research and real life examples was teaching us how and why and how often people were falsely confessing to crimes they did not commit. Things we simply did not know when Jason was on trial. What has to happen? What is the order of events? What kinds of situational pressures do you have to face in order to do something that goes against your own self interest? So much that you confess to a crime to the police that you did not actually commit that you had nothing to do with? Like genetic genealogy transformed how cold cases would be solved. This science transformed what we believed was possible about confessions 30 years later, could it amount to new evidence in Jason's case? That's next time on bear Brook. Season 2 A True Crime Story. A true crime story is reported and produced by me, Jason Moon. It's edited by Katie Culinary. Additional reporting and research by Paul Cuno Booth and an extra shout out to Paul this episode for doing most of the work it took to track down jurors from Tony and Jason's trials. We had editing help from Lauren Trulgin, Daniela Allee, Sarah Plord, Taylor Quimby, Mara Hoplamazian and Todd Bookman. Our news director is Dan Baric. Our director of podcasts is Rebecca Lavoy. Fact checking by Danya Suleiman. Sarah Plord created our original artwork as well as our website bearbrookpodcast.com Additional photography and videos by Gabby Lozado. Original music for the series was created by me, Jason Moon. Bear Brook is a production of the document team at New Hampshire Public Radio. Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach. Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. 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