‘Promises Have Been Made’

Summary

Bear Brook Podcast: Episode Summary – "Promises Have Been Made"

Introduction

In the gripping episode titled "Promises Have Been Made" from Season 2 of Bear Brook, host Jason Moon delves deep into the controversial case of Jason Carroll. Serving a life sentence for the murder of Sharon Johnson, Carroll insists on his innocence, asserting that his only incriminating evidence is his own taped confession. This episode meticulously unpacks the complexities surrounding Carroll's conviction, exploring the nuances of police interrogation methods, familial influence, and the quest for truth in a seemingly closed case.

Background of the Case

The episode begins by setting the stage for the murder of Sharon Johnson on July 28, 1988, a crime that would unravel into a convoluted investigation involving multiple confessions and allegations of police misconduct. Detective Roland Lammy, the lead investigator, played a pivotal role in securing the confessions that ultimately led to the conviction of Jason Carroll, Tony Puff, and Ken Johnson.

The Confessions and Investigation

Detective Lammy orchestrated a dramatic confrontation at the scene of the crime in Manchester, New Hampshire, aiming to validate Carroll's confession. On November 27, 1989, Lammy brought Tony Puff to the construction site where Sharon Johnson's body was discovered, presenting him with Jason Carroll as a co-conspirator. Lammy hoped that this staged scenario would solidify the case against Johnson by eliciting consistent confessions from both Carroll and Puff.

At [03:25], Jason Carroll states:

"Right from the top again."

As the investigation progressed, it became evident that Carroll's confession was not the sole piece of evidence. A second confession was recorded while Carroll was en route to meet with the authorities, further entangling the narrative and implicating additional individuals.

Interrogation Tactics and Alleged Coercion

A significant portion of the episode scrutinizes Detective Lammy's interrogation techniques, suggesting that promises of leniency may have coerced Carroll and Puff into their confessions. Lammy's approach involved creating pressure and ambiguity, leading the suspects to question the validity of their own memories and testimonies.

At [10:34], during Puff's interrogation, Lammy asks:

"You have indicated to me, prior to us turning this tape on, that you are now ready to tell the whole truth, so help you God, about your involvement in the killing of Sharon Johnson on July 28, 1988. Is that correct?"

The interrogation process, as described, appears methodical yet coercive. Lammy's strategies included repeated questioning, emotional manipulation, and the strategic use of recorded tapes to reinforce the desired narrative.

Role of Jason's Parents

Central to the controversy are the actions of Jason Carroll's parents, Karen and Jack Carroll. The episode reveals that they actively participated in the interrogation process, deviating from traditional parental roles by collaborating closely with Detective Lammy.

At [29:35], retired judge and former criminal defense attorney Cliff Kinghorn recounts:

"Until Cliff was appointed to represent Jason, no one outside law enforcement really knew what role Jason's parents had played. How his mom, Karen and his stepdad Jack allowed Jason to be questioned by police without an attorney for at least 13 and a half hours over a four day period."

Karen Carroll's involvement was particularly contentious. She allegedly facilitated the creation of an "outline tape" intended to demonstrate that no coercion or promises were made by the police to her son.

At [35:49], Karen reflects:

"I was not only a police officer, but I was a mother, you know, and mothers will do whatever they have to do to try to protect their kids, and things affect everybody differently. And I think he just took full advantage of my noodle, just slipped off the plate into the abyss."

The Outline Tape and Legal Challenges

The "outline tape" emerged as a critical piece of evidence, purportedly documenting Karen and Jack Carroll's assurances that no promises of immunity or leniency were made to Jason during his interrogations. This tape was intended to counteract any claims that Carroll's confessions were coerced through promises of reduced sentences or other benefits.

Detective Lammy, aiming to protect the integrity of the investigation, utilized the outline tape to reinforce the state's narrative. At [38:39], Lammy explains:

"Lammy knew the voluntariness of Jason's confessions would be an issue, possibly from the intel he was getting from Karen about the legal strategy of Jason's lawyers."

Despite these efforts, legal challenges persisted. Jason Carroll's attorney, Cliff Kinghorn, argued that the outline tape was a fabricated tool designed to mask police coercion. The Carrolls later testified, attempting to dismantle the state's narrative by asserting that promises were indeed made to Jackson Carroll, ultimately leading to his wrongful conviction.

Aftermath and Ongoing Controversies

Years after the conviction, doubts about Jason Carroll's guilt continue to surface. Survivors of the case and supporters argue that the confessions were obtained under duress, influenced by Detective Lammy's interrogation methods and the unwitting participation of Carroll's parents.

Carroll’s relationship with his parents remains strained, marked by unresolved tensions and unspoken truths. At [44:12], Carroll muses:

"And what's going to happen is it's like if I walk out of here. And get up, her and I are going to sit down and have a long, long talk, and she's probably not going to like some of the things I got to say."

Furthermore, Karen Carroll's later admissions and reflections suggest deep remorse and acknowledgment of her role in her son's conviction. At [44:39], she shares:

"I was not only a police officer, but I was a mother, you know... He just took full advantage of my noodle, just slipped off the plate into the abyss."

Conclusion

"Promises Have Been Made" serves as a profound exploration of wrongful convictions, the ethical boundaries of law enforcement interrogations, and the unintended consequences of familial involvement in legal processes. Through meticulous storytelling and compelling interviews, Bear Brook illuminates the murky waters of justice, questioning whether true innocence can ever surface amidst a web of confessions and coercion.

For listeners seeking to understand the depths of Jason Carroll's case and the broader implications for the criminal justice system, this episode offers a thought-provoking and emotionally charged narrative that underscores the importance of vigilance, integrity, and the relentless pursuit of truth.

Notable Quotes:

• Detective Roland Lammy ([10:34]):

  "You have indicated to me... that you are now ready to tell the whole truth... about your involvement in the killing of Sharon Johnson... Is that correct?"

• Karen Carroll ([35:49]):

  "I was not only a police officer, but I was a mother... mothers will do whatever they have to do to try to protect their kids... he just took full advantage of my noodle."

• Jason Carroll ([44:12]):

  "What's going to happen is it's like if I walk out of here. And get up, her and I are going to sit down and have a long, long talk..."

References:

• Full episode transcript available at bearbrookpodcast.com
• Bear Brook by Jason Moon, New Hampshire Public Radio

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This summary captures the essence of the "Promises Have Been Made" episode, highlighting key discussions, insights, and conclusions drawn from the transcript. It provides a comprehensive overview for those unfamiliar with the podcast while maintaining the depth and engagement characteristic of Bear Brook.

Transcript

[Narrator]

Please leave a message. Hey, it's me. Well, it's you, San Diego. You, that is. Oh, I'm here at the beach. Sun's out. Everything's looking up. Oh, my gosh, the food. We love the spice. Oh, and oh, that show was so fun. Sand in my shoes and all. Anyway, wish you, I me, we hope to see you soon discover the best [e-mail] funded in part by San Diego Tourism Marketing District assessment funds. Don't miss the Hulu original docu series Devil in the Family. The Fall of Ruby Frankie. My wife created a YouTube channel. Thumbs up.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Subscribe, but only what we wanted to show.

[Narrator]

I'm still recording a three part series event. She said the children were demonically possessed. Get out. That blew the powder keg. Ruby crossed a line to psychotic. 911 emergency.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Open the door.

[Narrator]

Hulu's Devil in the Family the Fall of Ruby Frankie. All episodes now streaming on Hulu. Morning decisions. A creamy mocha frappuccino drink. A sweet vanilla, maybe a smooth caramel or that white chocolate mocha. Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Start your day with bottled Starbucks Frappuccino drinks. Pick up a bottle near you wherever you buy your groceries. I'm Todd Bookman, a reporter at New Hampshire Public Radio. For the last six months, I've been thinking a lot about a cat named Sergeant Tibbs who goes missing, who. Who's then found and who would land at the center of so much human pain, anger and confusion. It's not about the cat anymore.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

It's just about everything else.

[Narrator]

The final days of Sergeant Tibbs. A new podcast from NHPR about what we owe our pets and each other. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts. Previously on bear Brook. Season 2 A True Crime story. You told us that Jason had admitted.

[Jason Moon]

Moving the car and was involved.

[Narrator]

Somewhat.

[Jason Moon]

The truth, the essence of the truth. I have not seen a breaking point in you.

[Narrator]

If you put a knife. If you put a knife in that woman, I want to know.

[Jason Moon]

He stood up and he just said it was a bunch of bullcrap and that anything that he had wasn't true.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

It's November 27, 1989, the Monday after Thanksgiving. Tony Puff lands at the airport in Manchester, New Hampshire. Tony walks off the plane and then waves hello to Detective Roland Lammy and the other officers who are waiting for him. Tony has no idea that just two days ago on Saturday, Jason Carroll confessed on tape to murdering Sharon Johnson. And Tony has no idea that. That while he was in the air, police taped a second confession from Jason.

[Jason Moon]

Right from the top again. Jason, when were you first contacted? July 27, 1988. To do what? Kill Sharon Johnson. By whom? Tony Puff.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

And Tony has no idea that on both of those tapes, Jason says Tony is guilty, too. When Tony got on a plane in North Carolina that morning, he thought he was coming to team up with detectives again. Just like he had several months earlier when he wore a wire and tried to get Ken Johnson to admit to the murder. Detective Lammy and the other cops lead Tony outside to Lammy's car. It's November and there's snow on the ground. Tony is wearing shorts and a T shirt. He sits in the front seat and Lammy says as a precaution, he's going to read Tony his Miranda rights. You know, just since they're going to be talking about the murder. Tony says he understands it's just a precaution. After about 15 minutes, they pull into a construction site. The construction site where Sharon's body was found. Detective Lammy tells Tony, there's someone here that has something to say to you. It's Jason. He's standing there in the construction site surrounded by about a dozen cops. Police cruisers are parked all over. It's at this moment that Tony must have realized this trip to see the New Hampshire State Police was not going to be like the last one. Last time, Tony was one of the guys. This time he'd walked right into a trap. A scene staged by Detective Lammie on the very spot where Sharon Johnson's body was found that day. Lammie hoped he could turn one confession into two and finally use that evidence to take down Ken Johnson. This is Bear Brook, Season 2 A true crime Story. I'm Jason Moon.

[Narrator]

Please leave a message. Hey, it's me. Well, it's you, San Diego. You, that is. Oh, I'm here at the beach. Sun's out, everything's looking up. Oh, my gosh, the food. We love the spice. Oh, and oh, that show was so fun. Sand in my shoes and all. Anyway, wish you, I me, we hope to see you soon discover the best you@san diego.org funded in part by San Diego Tourism Marketing District assessment funds. Don't miss the Hulu original docu series Devil in the Family. The Follow Ruby Frankie. My wife created a YouTube channel. Thumbs up.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Subscribe, but only what we wanted to show.

[Narrator]

I'm still recording a three part series of that channel. She said the children were demonically possessed. Get out. That blew the powder keg. Ruby crossed a line to psychotic. All right, I'm on emergency.

[Jason Moon]

Open the Door.

[Narrator]

Hulu Stabil in the Family the Fall of Ruby Frankie all episodes now streaming on Hulu. First decision of the morning. Hmm, A creamy mocha Frappuccino drink. Or will we ease into the day with a sweet vanilla? Maybe a smooth caramel? Ooh, what about that white chocolate mocha? No matter which flavor you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Better coffee starts a better day. Start with bottled Starbucks Frappuccino drinks. Pick up a bottle near you wherever you buy your groceries. What makes a leader? It's a tough question, but this we know for sure. True leaders lead by example. They take risks and plunge into life with determination. And for real leaders, there's a symbol of high adrenaline and high achievement. The Range Rover Sport. The Range Rover Sport redefined sporting luxury with a dramatic modern design that meets a distinctive sporting character and a well appointed cabin brings a sense of occasion to every drive. The active noise cancellation feature filters out unwanted sound, making the cabin a cocoon like sanctuary. Optional PM2.5 filtration reduces odors, bacteria and allergens while CO2 management enhan the wellness of everyone on board. Plus, you can curate the mood of every journey with configurable cabin lighting and bring a hint of refinement to every drive with optional 22 way adjustable heated and ventilated electric memory front seats with massage function. Build your Range Rover [e-mail] US Sport that's range rover.com USSport.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

According to the police reports, Detective Lammy and Tony get out of the car and walk over to Jason. Lammy stands in between Jason and Tony in case it gets physical. He tells them, I don't want this turning into a freak show. Detective Lammy then has Jason repeat his confession to Tony. He's betting that the surprise of being confronted by a co conspirator confessing to the crime at the spot where Lammy says they committed the crime, surrounded by a dozen cops will all convince Tony that the game is over. It was the kind of scene that would make for the perfect climax in a TV cop show. But it doesn't go according to plan. Tony says he doesn't even know who Jason is even though they work together at high tech. He says Jason is crazy. Tony asks what's going on, but Lammy says if he wants to talk about it, he'll have to come with him to the police station. Tony is standing in a snow covered construction site in rural New Hampshire wearing just shorts and a T shirt. He was flown here on the state police's dime. He has no car of his own and no way to reach anyone else. He agrees and gets back in the car with Lammy. Once they get to the Bedford police station, Tony spends three hours in an interrogation room with Detective Lammy and other officers. And then Lammy's partner turns on a tape Recorder.

[Jason Moon]

This is Sergeant Neil Scott in the Hampshire State Police. Speaking time, 1900 hours. The date is November 27, 1989. The following recorded conversations of that of Anthony Tony Puff. Present. Sergeant Roland Lammy of New Hampshire State Police and myself, Neil Scott. Tony, are you aware that this is being recorded? Yes. Would you speak it up, please? Yes. Thank you.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

It's taken detectives a lot of work to get here, but Tony now tells them he's finally ready to make a confession.

[Jason Moon]

You have indicated to me, prior to us turning this tape on, that you are now ready to tell the whole truth, so help you God, about your involvement in the killing of Sharon Johnson on July 28, 1988. Is that correct? Yes.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Tony begins to tell a new story about his involvement in Sharon's murder. Tony says the story starts with a conversation between him and Ken one week before she was killed.

[Jason Moon]

He asked me if I could help him figure out a way to kill his wife. And I thought, and her name is Sharon Johnson. Okay. First, I thought he was kidding. Okay. And I suggested a few ways. Okay. Just playing along with him. And then he told me he wasn't joking. He was serious.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Tony says ken offered him $10,000 to kill his wife. Tony says he thought about it for a day and then agreed to the job. Tony says he then reached out to Jason and offered him half the money, $5,000 to help him carry it out. Tony says it was his idea for Jason to play the role of Bob. He says he and Jason met with Sharon at the mall.

[Jason Moon]

We met her in the mall and we asked her to go outside. Come outside with us. Where in the mall? In the middle of the mall, by the food court somewhere. I mean, I don't remember nothing. I don't.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

The mood of Tony's interrogation could not be more different than what happened with Jason and his mom. There's no shouting on the tape. In fact, it's so quiet, you can hear what sounds like a clock ticking throughout the whole thing. And Tony, I'm not sure what the right word is to describe his affect. Flat, unremorseful, resigned, exhausted. Tony can't seem to remember all that much about the day of the murder. The interrogation is a halting, tedious process. But Lammy, who yelled at Jason to Reach his breaking point as Jason sobbed, is patient, even gentle, as he coaxes Tony to keep talking. At one point, Lammy tells Tony, don't be ashamed to cry.

[Jason Moon]

Then we drove. I don't remember the places we drove. Jason told you where we drove, then we went down to. I don't remember. It's hard for me to remember things. I, I, well, do. Do the best. This is very serious, as you know. I mean, there has to be. You have to explain how it is that that site was chosen because Johnson shows up there and he has to know where it's going to be. Who chooses that place and how do you get there? He's the one who chose it because I didn't know where it was. How do you. You don't just accidentally run into him. How do you people get out there? Come on, Tony.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Tony is not giving police the kind of detailed play by play they're looking for. Still, he is confirming the broad strokes of Jason's confession. Tony says after they meet Sharon at the mall, they force her into her car. Then Tony says he holds Sharon at knifepoint and makes her drive to the construction site.

[Jason Moon]

Anyway, we got there, she struggled. Jason drove a knife in her back, stabbed her again. I choked her. She fell to the ground and I didn't. Her shirt was pulled off, but I didn't pull it off. I don't know how I got pulled off, but I didn't pull it off. How many times did you stab her? Truthfully? Truthfully, no, Tony. So one time. She ought to tell the truth because that's what you want to be doing. You don't have to have the exact number of times. I want to know how many times do you think you may have stabbed her? A couple of times.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Tony tells police the knife used in the murder belonged to Lisa Johnson, Ken's adopted daughter, the mother of Tony's child. Tony says she might have known about the plot to kill Sharon, but can't say for sure. Tony says he got the knife from Ken and then gave it to Jason. That's all a pretty significant difference from Jason's confession, where he eventually says the knife was his and never mentions Lisa. Lammy, no doubt recognizing this discrepancy, asks Tony, were there two knives used or just one? Tony says just one.

[Jason Moon]

Was Johnson there? Explain how.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Where.

[Jason Moon]

Johnson. Johnson. He did show up. I don't know where he came from, but he was. I mean, I didn't see where he. Which direction he came from, but he was there. Okay, and did he. Did he come before this Began or after or during? He must have been there already because it came out right after it was over. Oh, he came out after it was over. Okay, okay. Continue. And what was said? We. Was Sharon begging you to stop. Was she crying? She was. Of course she was crying. She was in hysterics. What would tell me things that she was saying. Why are we doing this tour? What did you say? I don't remember.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

That's another difference from the story Jason told. Jason said Ken and Sharon had a whole argument before she was stabbed. And now Tony is saying Ken emerged from somewhere nearby only afterwards. Tony says after they killed Sharon, he and Jason drove her green Subaru back to the mall and left it in the parking lot. Then he says they both drove in Jason's truck to Ken's house where he paid them the $10,000. At that point, Tony says he and Jason parted way near the end of the interrogation. Lammy uses a technique on Tony that he also used on Jason. He invokes the presence of a theoretical jury that will one day listen to the tape they're making.

[Jason Moon]

I want you to explain to the jury, if you will, and I know it's very difficult to do this, but I must ask you to express how you feel as a human being as to Tony Puff. How does Tony Puff feel about having participated in the murder of Sharon Johnson? I feel bad and I'm sorry it took place. And I wish it would never even happen. If there was any way that I could switch, I could switch places, I'd do it.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Tony's taped interrogation finishes around 8pm Tony landed at the airport at 3. So he spent five hours with the cops by this point, and it's not over. Police keep talking to him that night, periodically, though they never turn on another tape recorder. Two hours later, Tony changes his story. Now he says Lisa Johnson was involved in the murder. He says she was there and saw sharon die. Then 40 minutes later, Tony tries to recant everything he says. None of it is true. Not even what he told Detective Lammy months ago about moving Sharon's car as a favor for Ken. It's somewhere around 11pm finally, according to the police report, Tony says, look, everything I told you on the tape was the truth. I feel bad. I'm tired. That's why I went backwards. Don't bother asking me anything more because I don't remember anything more. All this time, Jason has been at the police station too. He recorded that second taped confession while Tony was flying in. Then, after the showdown at the construction site, police also brought Jason back to the Bedford PD for the rest of the day, Lammy has been bouncing back and forth between questioning Jason and Tony. Around midnight, Tony and Jason are both arrested. Tony's been with police for nine hours this day, Jason for about 12 hours. By the way, you can see a timeline of all the interrogations on our website bearbrookpodcast.com but Lammy is not done with Jason yet. He has one last scene to stage with him. This one down in Rhode island with Ken Johnson. The next Morning, just after 10am, police in Warren, Rhode island arrive at the Country Inn restaurant. Ken is apparently at work inside. The Warren police chief told the newspapers Ken showed, quote, no surprise or shock whatsoever at being arrested. Ken is brought to the local police station and not long after he gets there, Detective Lammy arrives from New Hampshire. He's brought Jason with him. Lammy brings Jason into the room where where Ken is being held. According to Lammy's police report, Ken stares at Jason. Lammy then has Jason repeat his confession again to Ken. Jason gets as far as the part where he says he saw Ken at the construction site. At the mention of this, Ken flings out his arms in disgust and tells Lammy to get Jason out of his sight. Over a year after Sharon was murdered, Lammy's investigation had produced two confessions and an alleged murder weapon. Jason's pocket knife. And it all pointed to the original prime suspect, Ken. And as the mastermind behind the plot to kill Sharon, it was front page news. Tony Puff, Ken Johnson and Jason Carroll were all charged with capital murder. At the time, the penalty was death. Detective Roland Lammy had lived up to his reputation. He'd solved the case. He'd crafted the narrative about who killed Sharon Johnson. Thank you for listening to Bear Brook Season 2. This podcast took more than a year to report and lots of resources. One way to show how much you value local journalism and long form investigative reporting is by giving to New Hampshire Public Broadcast Radio. It takes just a few minutes and makes a big difference. To give now, click the link in the show notes and thank you.

[Narrator]

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[Detective Roland Lammy]

You've now heard the official narrative of Sharon Johnson's murder. How it was put together out of a few clues and a tangle of changing and sometimes conflicting confessions from two 19 year olds. To recap, here's what the police say happened. Ken Johnson wanted his wife dead because he was deep in gambling debt and Sharon's pension would cover that debt and then some. He hired Tony Puff, the 19 year old who dated his daughter, to kill Sharon. Tony recruited his co worker Jason Carroll to help. The three of them used a story about a fictional Bob to lure Sharon to the mall. Tony and Jason kidnapped her there and brought her to a construction site where Ken was waiting and then Jason and Tony stabbed Sharon with Jason's pocket knife, and Ken and Tony strangled her. If some of that sounds different than what Jason and Tony confessed to, it's because it is. Jason made yet more changes to his confession during his final taped interrogation, including that Ken choked but never stabbed Sharon. But if the state was going to take these confessions to trial, they had to settle on a single narrative. Did Ken stab her or didn't he? Was Lisa involved or wasn't she? And so they made some storytelling choices. They made choices about when to use the details from one confession over another when those details conflicted. And they made choices about what statements were true or false when Jason and Tony gave multiple different answers to the same question. So some things got cut, like Ken stabbing Sharon himself or Lisa being involved. And to be clear, as far as Lisa goes, there is no evidence besides Tony's brief statement that she had anything to do with Sharon's murder. Lisa wasn't even living in New Hampshire at the time. She'd moved to Rhode Island a few months before Sharon's murder. We reached out to Lisa, but never heard back. Together, those storytelling choices add up to the narrative the state still stands by to this day. But of course, it was not the only version of the story to be told. The official narrative was challenged just as soon as Jason Carroll got a lawyer. Can you talk to me about your first introduction to the case?

[Narrator]

The first thing that happened was Jason's mom came in to meet with me and I knew right away that there was going to be a problem.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

This is retired judge and former criminal defense attorney Cliff Kinghorn. He's an ex Marine, got a Purple Heart in Vietnam. Until Cliff was appointed to represent Jason, no one outside law enforcement really knew what role Jason's parents had played. How his mom, Karen and his stepdad Jack allowed Jason to be questioned by police without an attorney for at least 13 and a half hours over a four day period. How Karen Carroll actively and aggressively participated in one of Jason's interrogations. When Cliff learned what had happened, he was horrified. Then he took a meeting with Jason's parents that stunned him even more. In Cliff Kinghorn's office, Karen and Jack Carroll share a detail that no one else knows about. Something allegedly left off the police reports. Something that would help explain why Karen and Jack did what they did. Karen tells Cliff a deal for Jason's cooperation has already been worked out with police. As long as Jason testifies against Ken. Karen says Jason has been promised a very light sentence, something like seven or eight years. At a federal prison where he could even get a college degree. While inside, Karen says she and Jason's stepfather had been promised this by Detective Roland Lammy.

[Narrator]

I'm thinking to myself, what la la land are we living in? That's never going to happen.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Cliff and Jason's parents start to argue.

[Narrator]

Karen basically said to me, we're going to do this my way. You know, all kinds of promises have been made to him, and I trust Roland Lammy explicitly. And we got into kind of a heated discussion.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Karen and Jack Carroll actually described this meeting with Cliff in the outline tape. The conversation Karen and Jack recorded with Detective Lammy Just 11 days after this meeting with Cliff. And Karen tells Lammie just how terribly the meeting went. He just.

[Narrator]

He really started in very hard on me.

[Jason Moon]

My being in law enforcement seemed to be quite an issue.

[Narrator]

How could I possibly sit there and let my son spill his guts and.

[Jason Moon]

Tell everything without consulting an attorney?

[Narrator]

Whose side was I on? Was I on Jason's side or was.

[Jason Moon]

I on the police's side?

[Narrator]

I mean, it was basically, you know, I know he needs a lawyer, I suppose, but we're. I'm calling the shots. We're calling the shots, and we know what we're doing, and this is the way. This is the way it's going to be. And I said, I'm sorry, Karen, but you need to understand something. I don't represent you. I don't represent your husband. We're going to represent Jason, and that's our job.

[Jason Moon]

And we walked out very upset. I don't think we said three words together to each other all the way home. This was supposed to be a defense attorney for our son, and we felt that he was going to hang him off the drop. He was up for his own glory, and we didn't want that. We told him. We told him that Jason wanted to turn the state's evidence, and he insisted not.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

The argument in Cliff Kinghorn's office was an epic clash of worldviews. A cop and a defense attorney, each with fundamentally different understandings of how the criminal justice system works, both believing their approach was in Jason's best interest. A little context here. Generally speaking, cops don't have the authority to make promises of immunity. An offer like that can only come from a prosecutor, and it's also risky for the police. A promise of immunity could render a suspect's confession involuntary in the eyes of the court. But it matters exactly what is said. A detective who makes an explicit promise of immunity, that's usually not okay. But a detective who suggests that cooperation might lead to leniency. That's not uncommon, and it's a legal gray area. Detective Lammy, for his part, flatly denied ever making promises of any kind to. To Jason or his parents. But the Carrolls would later testify to a jury that Lammy made the promise to them the morning after Jason's first interrogation. In that testimony, the Carols say immunity for Jason became their objective. And to make that happen, they needed to make sure he cooperated. So later that same day, when Karen is brought into the room during Jason's second interrogation and Detective Lammy is yelling at him that he's not telling the truth, Karen said it scared her. If Jason held something back, he wouldn't get immunity. He needs to talk. He needs to tell them everything for his own good.

[Narrator]

These guys are going to help you. We're not going to sit and jump on your ass and shoot you down, all right? I feel like I'm going to jump.

[Jason Moon]

On my ass and shoot down.

[Narrator]

Now we want the truth out of you. Nobody is going to be able to help you anymore until you come forth with all the information that they need.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Later in the interrogation, you can hear Karen tell her son, you still have a chance to save your ass, my dear. I don't want to see you go to prison.

[Narrator]

The harder it's going to be, and the worse it's going to be on yourself. You got to still have a chance to save your ass, my dear. I don't want to see you go to prison.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Jason says, I don't want to go to prison either, Ma. Karen says, then tell us every goddamn thing you know. Here's what Karen told me about what she was thinking during Jason's interrogation.

[Narrator]

What was going through my mind was if Jason had something to tell him, then he was going to tell him. But there was that word immunity rolling around in my head. I'm not thinking that that's got to come from the AG's office. I'm just thinking, this is my son. They're trying to pin this murder on him. And the word immunity is rolling around in my. My head.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

As Jason's confessions change and become more and more incriminating. The Carols say Lammy's promise changes, too, from full immunity to a short prison sentence. Still, to Karen and Jack, it felt like the best option for Jason, who otherwise could face the death penalty. When Jason's attorney, Cliff Kinghorn, told the Carols that Lammy's promises were a fantasy, the Carrolls simply didn't believe that Karen trusted Lammy. A fellow police officer, the one many considered to be the best. And so for weeks after that meeting, Karen continued to collude with Detective Lammy. She actively worked to undermine Jason's attorneys. Karen would talk to Jason in jail, learn what his attorneys were telling him, and then she'd call Detective Lammy and relay that information to him. She even convinced Jason to write a letter in jail to the prosecutors. In the letter, Jason says he wants to testify for the state, but his attorneys weren't letting him. Karen dictated the letter to Jason over the phone. With the help of Lammy. Karen delivered the letter by hand to the Attorney General's office, to the lawyers who were prosecuting her son. And then there's the outline tape.

[Jason Moon]

Today we have prepared an outline on a board in a conference room by which the outline will be utilized to present this taped statement.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Lammy hoped the tape would undermine any potential argument from Jason's attorneys that the confessions were coerced. And Karen and Jack Carroll helped make it. They recorded it with police In December of 1989, just weeks after Jason's arrest and 11 days after the Carol's big fight with Jason's lawyer.

[Jason Moon]

You understand that the reason we've made this tape today is because we know by other forces and their activity that in the long road ahead that there are going to be continued and repeated attacks that the police coerced, intimidated, promised, threatened, made deals with Jason Carroll at any time during the confession. Taking the confession decision making process, Detective.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Lammy knew the voluntariness of Jason's confessions would be an issue, possibly from the intel he was getting from Karen about the legal strategy of Jason's lawyers. And so, to protect his investigation, Lammy got Jack and Karen Carroll on record saying that the police made no promises or threats to Jason. The thing that Cliff and Karen would later say the whole fight at his office was about. Karen tells Lammie it never happened. Jack tells Lammy in the outline tape, a promise to Jason wasn't so much as insinuate. And Karen agrees that when she took part in Jason's second interrogation, she was acting as Jason's mother, not as a police officer. These were all statements that would later help the state fight off challenges by Jason's lawyers to the validity of his confession. For Lammy, the outline tape was a rare instance of two people putting their personal and familial relationships aside in the interest of justice.

[Jason Moon]

I must tell you that it's extremely rewarding to sit here and listen to two parents who, as conscientious and as Fair in their judgment and appraisal of this entire situation as you two have been. And we do appreciate that.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

For people who believe Jason is innocent, the outline tape is tragic. Here are Jason's parents, the people supposed to protect him, helping police put the finishing touches on his wrongful conviction. Maybe most damning of all from this point of view is how Karen and Jack both describe Jason calling them from jail and again trying to tell them he didn't do it. To which his parents basically say, knock it off.

[Narrator]

He went on to tell us that, you know, he wasn't guilty. And again, his father and I stressed to him the importance of telling the truth.

[Jason Moon]

He said he tried to compromise with the truth. He says, well, okay, what if? What would happen if. If I am really innocent of this and I just go and try to make a deal on that statement. And he says, down the road a year or two, say the state investigators.

[Narrator]

Find the real man who did this.

[Jason Moon]

What would they do then? And we tried to explain that to him. At that point, we both knew that he was just pussyfooting around. And it my opinion, I'm not going to speak for my wife, but it's my opinion that the boy is guilty. And I've known him for 19, 20 years now he is guilty and he needs to be punished.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

People in Jason's camp today have a lot to say about what his parents did. Most of the criticism is directed at Karen because of her role in the interrogation.

[Narrator]

She was a cop.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

She, of all people, knows better.

[Narrator]

My children are 30 and 26. If they were ever hauled off to.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

A police department, first thing I would.

[Narrator]

Say is lawyer up, done. I've told Jason this. There's a part of me that doesn't have a whole lot of respect for his mom. He had nobody on his side to protect him. Where were his protectors?

[Detective Roland Lammy]

For Jason, the feelings are more complicated.

[Jason Moon]

I mean, I still talk to her, but it's not quite the same, nor will it ever be.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Jason says he and his mom have never really been able to talk about what happened freely. Their only contact since the arrest has been in jail and prison visiting rooms with guards watching or on prison phones where they could be listening. Not the best environment for a painful heart to heart.

[Jason Moon]

The story and the saga is not done between her and I. It's far from it.

[Narrator]

It's just that for now it's on hold.

[Jason Moon]

And what's going to happen is it's like if I walk out of here.

[Narrator]

And get up, her and I are going to sit down and Have a long, long talk, and she's probably not going to like some of the things I got to say.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Jack Carroll died in 2006. Karen, for her part, now acknowledges the role she played and says she deeply regrets it. But she also lays much of the blame at the feet of Detective Roland Lammy.

[Narrator]

I was not only a police officer, but I was a mother, you know, and mothers will do whatever they have to do to try to protect their kids, and things affect everybody differently. And I think he just took full advantage of my noodle, just slipped off the plate into the abyss.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Cliff Kinghorn, Jason's lawyer, who argued with Karen that day in his office, who once questioned whose side Karen was on, today says that this was not her fault.

[Narrator]

You know, Karen helped them, but, you know, in my heart, I always thought she felt she was doing the right thing for Jason. And, I mean, Roland knew what he was doing, and he realized that he had someone that had a great deal of influence on her son that he could use to get what he wanted. I never doubted for a minute that she was made promises. Lambing made promises to her that he could never possibly keep.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

About seven weeks after the Carrolls had their blow up with Cliff, the reality of Jason's situation takes hold. Lambie's alleged promises of leniency do not come to pass. The state of New Hampshire indicts Jason on charges of capital murder. Lammy and the prosecutors Karen had put her trust in are now trying to execute her son. Meanwhile, Jason is back to denying any involvement in the murder, a position he will maintain for the next 34 years. Jason refuses to testify against Ken or Tony. Karen and Jack start to cooperate with Jason's attorneys. Eventually, they will testify several times as witnesses for the defense. On the stand, they will say that the outline tape was a huge lie orchestrated and scripted by Detective Lammy. They will beg a judge and jury, sometimes through tears, to believe them that Detective Lammy promised their son immunity. But it won't work. The prosecutor will simply point out that the Carrolls are admitting that their wife willing to lie if they think it will help Jason. And the prosecutor will say that's exactly what they're doing now. Jack and Karen Carroll will be too late to stop what they helped start. Jason Carroll will be convicted of murder.

[Narrator]

I am like, why did I let this happen? Why wasn't I stronger? Why couldn't I see what he was doing? Why? Why?

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Coming up in the second half of a true crime story.

[Narrator]

I was just reading and laying out the case. I knew something wasn't right, but I didn't know what wasn't right.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

And what did you think it was leading to? Like, did you have an objective in mind as you were doing this?

[Narrator]

The truth? That's, that's a big accusation for someone.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

To come out and admit that they.

[Narrator]

Did something when they didn't do it.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

I thought he was guilty. I thought there was no question about whether he was guilty or not.

[Jason Moon]

I mean, one of the best things.

[Narrator]

That came out of Puff's mouth was when they were filming him coming out of the police station in the morning.

[Jason Moon]

And they said, do you have anything.

[Narrator]

To say or something? And he says, yeah, not guilty. When they started to suggest that this is the only way that this is going to work, your mind says, okay, well, you have to trust them. You believe that you're helping your accusers help you. People have a real, really, really hard time reconciling with the fact that someone.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Would confess to something that they didn't do, and they assume that if they.

[Narrator]

Said that they did it, it's because they actually.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

A True Crime Story is reported and produced by me, Jason Moon. It's edited by Katie Culinary. Additional reporting and research by Paul Kuno Booth. Editing help from Lauren Chulgin, Daniela Allee, Sara Plord, Taylor Quimby, Mara Hoplamazian and Todd Bookman. Our news director is Dan Baric. Our director of podcast is Rebecca Lavoy. Fact checking by Danya Suleiman Sara Plord created our original artwork as well as our website. Bearbrookpodcast.com Photos and videos by Gabby Lozada. Original music for the series was created by me, Jason Moon. Bear Brook is a production of the Document Team at New Hampshire Public Radio.

[Narrator]

Morning Decisions A creamy mocha Frappuccino drink. A sweet vanilla, maybe a smooth caramel or that white chocolate mocha. Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Start your day with bottled Starbucks Frappuccino drinks. Pick up a bottle near you wherever you buy your groceries. Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families with greenlight. You can set up chores, automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications. Kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place. Sign up for Greenlight [e-mail] podcast.