The Breaking Point

Summary

Bear Brook – Episode: "The Breaking Point"

Released on March 6, 2023, "The Breaking Point" is a pivotal episode of NHPR's critically acclaimed true crime podcast, Bear Brook, hosted by Jason Moon. This episode delves deep into the troubling case of Jason Carroll, a man serving a life sentence for a murder he insists he did not commit. Through meticulous storytelling and insightful interviews, the episode explores the intricacies of Carroll's case, the interrogation tactics employed by law enforcement, and the profound psychological impact of decades behind bars.

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Introduction to Jason Carroll's Case

The episode opens with Todd Bookman introducing himself and the central focus of the story: Jason Carroll's conviction for the murder of Sharon Johnson. Carroll's only evidence is his own taped confession, which he vehemently denies being genuine. As Detective Roland Lammy navigates the complexities of the case, the narrative uncovers layers of potential misconduct and the enduring quest for truth.

Jason Carroll’s Background and Early Life

Jason Carroll's journey begins in 1989 in New Hampshire, where he was a charismatic and mechanically skilled young man with a promising future. His involvement in cruising Elm Street, a popular social activity, is vividly described by his friend Debbie Ricker ([04:36]). Jason's disciplined yet strained family life, marked by a strict stepfather and limited communication, set the foundation for his later struggles ([06:01]).

Notable Quote:

Debbie Ricker ([03:33]): "I wanted to trust him."

The Murder of Sharon Johnson and Initial Interrogations

Sharon Johnson's murder on July 28, 1988, thrusts Jason Carroll into the spotlight as a prime suspect. Detective Lammy, who assumes the case nearly a year later, becomes a central figure in unraveling the truth. The episode meticulously details Carroll's early interactions with law enforcement, highlighting inconsistencies and the evolving nature of his confessions.

Notable Quote:

Detective Roland Lammy ([02:08]): "When I first met Jason Carroll inside the prison, I could feel my brain trying to reconcile two different Jason's."

The Outline Tape and Shifting Confessions

A critical element of the episode is the "outline tape," a recording involving Detective Lammy, his partner Detective Neil Scott, and Carroll's parents. This tape chronicles the interrogation process, revealing how Carroll's statements about the murder shifted dramatically over time ([18:54]).

Initially, Carroll presents himself as an observer, recounting witnessing the murder without direct involvement. However, as the interrogation progresses, his narrative becomes increasingly incriminating, moving from being a mere witness to admitting active participation ([26:56]-[37:57]).

Notable Quote:

Jason Carroll ([32:15]): "It's a bunch of bullcrap to keep it clean, clean and that anything that he had said wasn't true."

Family Intervention and Second Interrogation

Carroll's family, particularly his mother Karen and stepfather Jack, play a significant role during his second interrogation. Jack attempts to connect with Jason by sharing his own military experiences, leading to heightened emotions and Jason's eventual admission of stabbing Sharon ([32:30]-[43:06]).

Notable Quote:

Jason Carroll ([47:44]): "You know, for me, it's an embarrassing time of my life because like I told you last time, I let somebody else take my will and bend it to theirs."

Challenges to the Confessions and Claims of Coercion

Despite the confessions obtained over extended interrogations, Jason Carroll maintains his innocence, arguing that his statements were coerced and fabricated under duress. The episode highlights his struggles with PTSD and the psychological scars left by his experiences with law enforcement ([51:23]-[56:45]).

Notable Quote:

Jason Carroll ([54:03]): "Because, you know, they take a person, they break you down, and they build you back up. But what I went through with these fucking people. Yet military got nothing on that."

Life in Prison and Ongoing Impact

Decades of incarceration have profoundly affected Carroll, leading to isolation from friends and family. Engaging in woodworking, he finds solace in creating furniture and mementos, yet remains haunted by his conviction ([09:36]-[10:58]). The involvement of the New England Innocence Project rekindles hopes for exoneration, but reopening old wounds exacerbates his emotional turmoil ([10:42]-[55:11]).

Notable Quote:

Jason Carroll ([49:13]): "You know, for me, it's an embarrassing time of my life because I let somebody else take my will and bend it to theirs."

Detective Lammy’s Perspective and Investigative Challenges

Detective Lammy reflects on his role in the case, acknowledging potential flaws in the investigation while steadfastly seeking justice. His interactions with Carroll reveal a complex dynamic, fraught with frustration and ethical dilemmas ([37:53]-[56:45]).

Notable Quote:

Detective Roland Lammy ([38:27]): "If you were paid $500 by Ken Johnson, you did a lot more than what you told us."

Conclusion and Future Directions

"The Breaking Point" concludes by emphasizing the unresolved tensions in Jason Carroll’s case. His steadfast claim of innocence juxtaposed with the confessions obtained under intense interrogation raises critical questions about the reliability of such convictions. The episode sets the stage for future installments, promising further exploration into the possibility of Carroll's exoneration and the broader implications for the criminal justice system.

Notable Quote:

Jason Carroll ([51:23]): "They were already dead set on fucking turn me into ass. I'm sorry. I'm in there on my own. I got no help, no nothing. Nothing. I'm trying to dig myself out of something I didn't do and nobody's listening."

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Key Takeaways

1. Interrogation Techniques: The episode scrutinizes the methods used by detectives Lammy and Scott, highlighting potential coercion and manipulation in Carroll's confessions.

2. Psychological Impact: Carroll's experiences underscore the profound psychological effects of long-term incarceration, including PTSD and isolation.

3. Family Dynamics: The involvement of Carroll's family, especially his mother and stepfather, illustrates the personal toll of wrongful convictions on loved ones.

4. Justice System Flaws: The narrative raises important questions about the reliability of confessions obtained under duress and the need for systemic reforms to prevent wrongful convictions.

5. Hope for Exoneration: The participation of the New England Innocence Project offers a glimmer of hope for uncovering the truth and possibly exonerating Carroll.

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Final Thoughts

"The Breaking Point" is a compelling examination of the human cost of unresolved justice and the complexities inherent in true crime cases. Through Jason Moon's adept storytelling, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of Jason Carroll's plight, the investigative challenges faced by law enforcement, and the enduring quest for truth and redemption.

Transcript

[Todd Bookman]

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[Debbie Ricker]

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[Todd Bookman]

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[Jason Moon]

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[Detective Roland Lammy]

Subscribe, but only what we wanted to show.

[Jason Moon]

I'm still recording a three part series event. She said the children were demonically possessed.

[Karen Carroll]

Get out.

[Jason Moon]

That blew the powder keg.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Ruby crossed a line to psychotic 911 emergency.

[Karen Carroll]

Open the door.

[Jason Moon]

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[Todd Bookman]

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[Jason Moon]

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[Detective Roland Lammy]

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[Jason Moon]

And another way Jack gives you so much more.

[Todd Bookman]

I'm Todd Bookman, a reporter at New Hampshire Public Radio. For the last six months, I've been thinking a lot about a cat named Sergeant Tibbs who goes missing, who's then found, and who would land at the center of so much human pain, ang and confusion.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

It's not about the cat anymore. It's just about everything else.

[Todd Bookman]

The Final Days of Sergeant Tibbs. A new podcast from NHPR about what we owe our pets and each other. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts. Previously on Bear Brook. Season 2 A True Crime Story I.

[Debbie Ricker]

Wanted to trust him. I wanted to trust him.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

I think he thought he was Telly Savalas. He had a shaved head, he's sucking on a lollipop, and he's strutting around.

[Jason Carroll]

The courtroom like he owned it.

[Todd Bookman]

He had a reputation for solving cases.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

When I first met Jason Carroll inside the prison, I could feel my brain trying to reconcile two different Jason's. There was the 19 year old I'd gotten a sense of through interviews, police reports and old tapes. And then There was the 52 year old in front of me. Jason's bald, a goatee that's mostly gray. And he's huge, like he spent the last three decades lifting weights. Which is kind of true. Jason's not big on reporters. He remembers how the newspapers covered his trials, how they reprinted again and again the most damning quotes from his confessions. So it took some time for Jason to relax around me. If Only a little. There's a lot I could tell you about Jason. He's polite. Despite his obvious physical strength, he has a gentle presence. He's apparently quite good at handball. He enjoys the woodworking program at the prison. He's made dozens and dozens of bowls and vases and pieces of furniture. A set of wooden lamps with little animal shapes cut out of them. He gives them away to people he cares about. People like Debbie Ricker.

[Debbie Ricker]

I met Jason back in 1989 and we kind of cruised Elm street back in the day.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

That's kind of what everybody did, cruising Elm Street. It was something I'd seen references to in the police reports and court testimony. But it wasn't until Debbie explained it to me that I could really picture it.

[Debbie Ricker]

When you cruise Elm street, people were cruising Elm street anywhere from 7:00 at night until 1 and 2 in the morning. And then you'd go hang out at Dunkin Donuts. If you've ever been to a car show, okay, that's kind of what it was. But you would have clicks everywhere. You would have people that had louder stereos. If you had Jeeps, all your Jeeps were over here to the right. If you had a Camaro, they were to the left. It was. The guys would hang out at Meineke and they would wait for the hot looking girls to come on cruising by.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

It was on one of these 1989 cruising nights when Americana overflowed, that Debbie met Jason.

[Jason Carroll]

I'm in the passenger seat and there she was, blonde hair, flowing California girl, blue eyes, smiling, big smile. And we're going down the road and I about broke my neck looking at this woman.

[Debbie Ricker]

Jason was known on Elm street as. I'm gonna put in as a pretty boy. Like, oh, wow, he's hot, you know, let's go after him because he had the nice brown hair, nice smile, tan. So he was a good looking kid. He really was.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Unfortunately for both of them, Debbie already had a boyfriend. But Debbie and Jason, who she sometimes calls Jay, struck up a flirtatious friendship.

[Debbie Ricker]

Anyways, we had a lot in common. My dad was military, Jay was military. We like mechanical things. Yes. I can put the dress on in high heels, but I can also get under and get my hands dirty. And I think that that's why Jason and I became friends. Because I wasn't just that little delicate girl. I was somebody he could relate to.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

It was around the time Jason and Debbie met in 1989 that Jason says his life was starting to get on track. Jason's family had Moved to New Hampshire a few years before from South Carolina. Jason's stepdad, Jack Carroll, was in the military, so they moved a lot. Jason was 17 when they got to New Hampshire, and he says he quickly realized his new high school was way ahead academically of his old one. So he dropped out. He said money was tight in the family, so he started working. And for a while he bounced around from job to job.

[Jason Carroll]

I tried going back to school. It just wasn't happening. Nothing was working for me. So I was like, okay, military it is. And it was the best thing I ever did. And I would have made a career out of it.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

When he was 18, Jason joined the National Guard. He went to boot camp at Fort Dix in New Jersey, then moved back home to New Hampshire. He got a job as a mechanic at the National Guard Armory in Manchester, the same place his stepdad worked.

[Jason Carroll]

I was proud. I was proud to serve my country, even though what little capacity I did, I was actually, I was proud as a peacock about it.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Jason finally felt like his life had a direction. He was fixing National Guard trucks by day, cruising Elm street and making eyes at Debbie by night. But things at home weren't always so great. Jason says he and Jack didn't get along. Jack has since died, but Jason's mom, Karen Carroll, told me he treated Jason differently than the other three kids who were all biologically his. Jason says with a cop for a mom and a soldier for a dad, the house was strict. A lot of yes sirs and no ma'ams. According to one of Jason's sisters, the family wasn't great at communicating. She told me things just weren't discussed. Home life was bad enough that Jason says he was considering asking his commanding officer to ship him off to Germany or really anywhere that wasn't New Hampshire. He was ready for something bigger. Jason's favorite movie was Top Gun. He had dreams of going through the Army's elite Ranger school. How long were you there before?

[Jason Carroll]

Just a year. I was only in a year. And then all this happened.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

1989 was the last time Jason was free. He spent the last 34 years or so in prison. That's longer than I've been alive. A few more years and Jason will have been inside prison twice as long as his life before it. 19 year old Jason was like so many other teenagers interested in girls adventure. Jason, in his 50s, is harder to read, probably because his life today is so profoundly different than most people's. He's separated from the world, literally physically, but also sometimes emotionally. I Got a window into this when I talked with Jason about how he's handling the renewed attention on his case. How after three decades of living in the obscurity of a New Hampshire prison, the spotlight is on him again. He told me over the years, most of his family moved out of state and friends drifted away. And sometimes that was because Jason told them to. He says it was too painful to hear about their lives on the outside while he was stuck in there.

[Jason Carroll]

I said, listen, you know, listen, you got kids, you got a wife. I said, I'll love you to death. You're my friend, but go be with your family. And unfortunately, I pushed a few people away like that. It was easier for me, in a sense, selfish. And I'll now think back on it because I don't. I don't have to live out there. I don't have to know what's going on. I don't have to hear about, oh, yeah, we went out and did this, you know, get the motorcycles out. I don't. I don't have to hear about that because all I did was just bring back, you know, just. It puts a pit in the stomach.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

This is part of how Jason has survived in prison. He withdrew from most other people and from his feelings about what had happened to his life. Of course, he was angry about what he says happened to him, but he couldn't get by in this new, terrifying world of prison and be mad about it every second. So Jason made a kind of grudging ceasefire agreement with his emotions.

[Jason Carroll]

You know, he kind of realized after a while, nothing's going to be done. Nothing can be done. You don't have the money to do anything. You can't fight anything tells you anything. So, you know, you just. You adapt to the situation that you're in. You go forward.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Jason adapted. He went forward. He got used to saying it is what it is to describe his life. And then Jason heard about the New England Innocence Project from another guy at the prison. It's a nonprofit based in Cambridge, Massachusetts, that works to exonerate people it believes are wrongfully convicted. Across New England, Jason allowed himself to briefly imagine that his life was not simply what it is. In 2016, Jason wrote the New England Innocence Project a letter. The innocence lawyers reviewed his case. They believed him, and now they fight for him. And he's back in court, and reporters like me are calling to talk with him. And with each step, Jason's emotional ceasefire gets harder and harder to maintain.

[Jason Carroll]

I never knew what anxiety was. Now I have it. There's just a lot going through my mind. It's just a whirlwind because I thought that, you know, this was it. You know, this is done. This is what I'm faced with. And now to have hope for an opportunity to live. But it's hard. You want to invest and put yourself into everything that's going on, but in the back of your mind, you know you can.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

This is Bear Brook Season 2 A True Crime Story. I'm Jason Moon.

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[Jason Moon]

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[Detective Roland Lammy]

Thumbs up. Subscribe but only what we wanted to show.

[Jason Moon]

I'm still recording a three part series of that. She said the children were demonically possessed.

[Karen Carroll]

Get out.

[Jason Moon]

That blew the powder keg.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Ruby crossed a line to psychotic.

[Jason Moon]

911 emergency.

[Karen Carroll]

Open the door.

[Jason Moon]

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[Detective Roland Lammy]

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[Todd Bookman]

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[Detective Roland Lammy]

By the fall of 1989, Detective Roland Lammy suspects Tony Puff had played him. He thinks when Tony wore a wire and talked to Ken Johnson in Rhode island, they were both acting. He thinks Tony and Ken must both be involved in the murder. So Lammy starts to dig deeper on Tony's background. And that's how he ends up looking at work records for a place called High Tech Fire Prevention, where Tony worked with Jason Carroll during the time of Sharon's murder. High tech was one of the several jobs Jason had between dropping out of high school and joining the military. Military it was a dirty job. High Tech cleaned commercial kitchen exhaust systems at restaurants and fast food places. One guy who worked there said the chemicals they used could put holes in your skin. And because they only worked when restaurants were closed, the hours could be terrible. Because of all this, it wasn't unusual for people to quit high tech. An employee would later testify that turnover there was always high. But when Detective Lammy got his hands on Tony Puff's work schedule for the week of Sharon's murder, he noticed something. The night Sharon was killed, Tony and Jason were both scheduled to work together. But Jason never showed. So this is why Lammy wanted to talk to Jason. Lammie goes to interview Jason when he's at work at the National Guard Armory. Their first meeting lasts five hours. Unfortunately, none of it is tape recorded. But there is another tape about what happened that day, a bizarre, astonishing tape made a few weeks later. By an unlikely group of people. Detective Roland Lammy, his partner, Detective Neil Scott, and Jason's parents.

[Detective Neil Scott]

Okay, this is Sergeant Lammy, state police. Today, prior to this taping, Sergeant Scott and I met with Mr. And Mrs. Carroll from Kansas State Police headquarters for us voluntarily to meet with us. The Carrolls have expressed their concern about Jason's well being as well as his safety in discussing this entire situation with the Carrolls. A joint decision has been made to establish a permanent record of all events that have transpired to date in this case.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

A joint decision to make a permanent record, says Detective Lammy. This is another tape I couldn't wrap my head around when I first heard it. In a case that's all about the power of words on tape. These words on this tape might be the most powerful and certainly the most surprising. This tape was recorded a few weeks after Jason's first meeting with Lammy, after Jason has been arrested for murder. And so here's the lead detective in a murder case sitting down with the parents of the suspect he just arrested, and they're all working together.

[Detective Neil Scott]

Today. We have prepared an outline on a board in the conference room by which the outline will be utilized to present this taped statement later.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

This tape would be dubbed the outline tape because of the way Lammy uses an outline on a chalkboard to structure the discussion. Using that outline, Lammy, his partner Neil Scott, and Jason's parents together narrate the story of Jason's interrogations and arrest. They start that story on November 24, 1989, the day of that first meeting between Jason Carroll and Detective Lammy. It's a Friday, the day after Thanksgiving. That afternoon, police arrive at the armory to talk to Jason. Jason's mom Karen, also happens to come by the armory that afternoon to drop off some keys for Jason. Here's Karen describing this moment in the outline tape to Detective Lammy. And remember, the outline tape was recorded just a few weeks after the events Karen is describing.

[Karen Carroll]

I asked where Jason was, and one of the officers in the office told me that Jason was in the break room with state police. He then proceeded to take me to the tape, to the break room. I went in, and I saw Jason sitting at the table with three other individuals.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Karen sees her son sitting with three cops. Detectives Dana Finn, Neil Scott, and Roland Lammy. They're sitting around a wooden table that feels a little too big for the room. Remember, Karen's also a cop in the town where Sharon's body was found, Bedford. And she already knows two of these guys. Detective Finn is with The Bedford pd. So he's Karen's co worker. And Detective Scott with state police had interviewed Karen for a job earlier that year. The only person Karen hadn't met was Detective Lammy. In the outline tape, Karen says the detectives told her they were there to talk with Jason about the Sharon Johnson murder. And she says they told her she was welcome to stay if she wanted.

[Detective Neil Scott]

And do you remember that Jason was asked if he wanted you to stay or not?

[Karen Carroll]

Yes, he was asked.

[Detective Neil Scott]

And do you remember his answer?

[Karen Carroll]

I believe he said that he'd be okay. There was no need of me being there.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

So Karen leaves. Now it's just Jason and the police. According to the police reports and the officers testimony under oath, here's what they say happens. The interview starts at 1:25pm the detectives tell Jason why they're there. The Sharon Johnson murder. Tony Puff the night of July 28, 1988. Then Lanny says Jason surprises them all by saying he remembers that night. Well, Jason says that night he was hanging out at one of the usual spots, the Meineke Muffler on Elm street in Manchester. Jason says Tony drove up in a green Subaru, the same kind of car Sharon drove. Jason says Tony told him the car belonged to a girl who worked at the mall. Then Jason says Tony asked him if he'd follow him to the mall so he could leave the car there for this girl when she got out of work. Jason agreed. Detective Lammy is hearing what sounds like a firsthand account of Tony driving the victim's car the night of the murder. This is big. Although it doesn't quite line up with what police know about the movement of Sharon's car. Remember, they didn't find the car at the mall until early Saturday morning. Here Jason is telling them he helped Tony move the car to the mall on Thursday night. Jason makes a handwritten statement of this story. It's just a few paragraphs long. It's now 3:15pm Almost two hours have passed since the interview began. At this point, Detective Lammy says Jason is acting nervous. He says he looks frightened, shaky. Lammy starts to push Jason for more details. Jason starts to cry. And then Jason changes his story. According to police, Jason now says the night before the murder Tony came to him with an idea to play a practical joke on a woman that Tony knew. Jason says Tony wanted him to pretend to be someone named Bob. Jason agreed. Jason says he and Tony met Sharon at the mall. He says Tony convinced her to drive to a construction site. Jason says he drove behind them in his truck. Lammy stops the interrogation. He later testifies that this moment stunned him. At the mention of a construction site, the type of area where Sharon's body was found, Lammy reads Jason his Miranda rights. Jason waives his rights and continues the story. At the construction site, Jason says Tony and Sharon met with two men. Jason says he stayed back by his truck about 75ft away and watched. Jason says he saw one of the men with a black beard pull out a knife and stab Sharon in the back. Jason says he panicked. He got in his truck and drove away. According to the detectives, Jason is shaking and crying intermittently as he tells this story. Detectives ask him to write out the story on paper, but Jason is shaking so badly he can't. So Detective Neil Scott writes out Jason's statement for him. Later, Jason copies the statement again in his own handwriting. It's now almost 6:30 in the evening. Jason's been talking to the detectives for five hours. Jason says he's tired and wants to go home. The detectives call Jason's parents to come pick him up. When Jason's parents arrive, they talk with police. Here's Detective Lammy and Karen Carroll talking about this moment in the outline tape recorded just a few weeks later.

[Detective Neil Scott]

Do you remember generally what we told you that Jason had or had not admitted at that point?

[Karen Carroll]

He told us that Jason had admitted moving the car and was involved somewhat. As to what degree at that point we didn't know. But he was involved somewhat with the Johnson murder.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

It's a Friday night. Jason's parents agree with police to continue the interrogation on Monday. Then they drive him home. Jason Carroll just told police he helped lure Sharon Johnson to the site where she was killed. The next morning, Jason tries to take it back.

[Jason Moon]

Don't miss the Hulu original docu series Devil in the Family. The follow Ruby, Frankie, my wife creating a YouTube channel.

[Narrator]

Thumbs up.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Subscribe, but only what we wanted to show.

[Jason Moon]

I'm still recording a three part series of acts. She said the children were demonically possessed.

[Karen Carroll]

Get out.

[Jason Moon]

That blew the powder keg.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Ruby crossed a line to psychotic.

[Jason Moon]

911 emergency.

[Karen Carroll]

Open the door.

[Jason Moon]

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[Detective Neil Scott]

Okay, now on the outline. Moving on to the next day, Saturday.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

25Th November, the day after Jason's first interrogation. Saturday at about 11am The Carrolls have something of a family meeting. Jason and his parents, Karen and Jack, all sit down at the kitchen table. Jack Carroll, Jason's stepdad, recapped the conversation for detectives Lammy and Scott in the outline tape.

[Detective Neil Scott]

We was asking what kind of questions were being asked and he started telling us and at that time.

[Jason Carroll]

He stood.

[Detective Neil Scott]

Up and he just said it was a bunch of bullcrap to keep it clean, clean and that anything that he had said wasn't true. He just said it because he felt that's what the police wanted to hear. Basically.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Later Jack would say he tried to identify with Jason in this moment by saying that as a Vietnam veteran, he had killed people and that if Jason had killed someone, he should get it off his chest. Jack says Jason became furious at this, slammed his fist on the table, stood up and said he had nothing to do with it.

[Detective Neil Scott]

So we, we got concerned. So at that time we tried to call. Matter of fact, Jason tried to call the state police to talk to either one of you two.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Jason calls Detective Lammy, but it's a Saturday and he's not in. So Jason tries the local police department in Bedford. Captain Leo Morenci comes to the Carol's house. Jason tells him the story about being there when Sharon Johnson was murdered was, quote, a bunch of shit. Jason says he made it up from the questions the detectives asked him. Jason says the only part of it that was true was that he helped Tony move a green Subaru to the mall. Captain Morenci tells Jason he doesn't believe him. Then the phone rings. It's Detective Lammy. Lammy learns what's going on and then he suggests they all meet up at the Bedford Police Department to talk it over. Jason agrees. Jason and his mom Karen drive over to the police station together. Jason is brought into a room with detectives. Karen waits out by her desk. The second interrogation of Jason Carroll begins at 1:30 that Saturday afternoon. It starts with Jason telling detectives most of what he told them the day before was a lie. Here's Detective Neil Scott, Lammy's partner, describing that moment in the outline tape.

[Detective Neil Scott]

Jason was still standing by his recanted statement. Insomuch that what he told us the previous day was a bunch of bull, we knew that he was now lying.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

For about an hour, Jason tries to convince the detectives that the story he gave them was false. But it's not working. And then Jason tells the detectives he wants to see his mom. Lammie leaves the room to go talk to Karen Carroll. In the outline tape, Lammy says Jason's request put him in a tough spot.

[Detective Neil Scott]

This is a situation that if we allowed her to come into the room, we'd be open to scrutiny. And if we didn't allow her to come into the room would be open to scrutiny.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Lammy decides it's better to bring Karen in than not. She enters the room just before 3pm According to police, Jason's denials have started to waver. Just before Karen came in.

[Detective Neil Scott]

And then approximately 3:05, Captain Marinci activates a micropassette recorder and Jason's statement and the activities in that room are recorded from that point on.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Police interrogated Jason for a total of six hours this day, but only a little more than half an hour was recorded. You'll remember the audio quality of that recording is not great. And occasionally people's names are bleeped. So I'll read some parts of it from almost the minute the tape recorder is turned on. Karen takes an active role in the interrogation. Karen asks her son, will you tell these three men every last detail? Everything? Then Detective Lammy jumps in. You don't look willing to tell the truth. You don't look as if you've concluded that you have got to let it go. There is that breaking point. Jason says, I have got to let it go. I've got to. I've got to. Lammy tells Jason again and again. He knows Jason isn't telling the truth.

[Detective Neil Scott]

You've got to tell him that may not. How do you have this guy? How does it start? How does the whole deal start?

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Lammy yells at Jason to tell him how the whole thing started. Jason says, the whole fucking thing started when I was supposed to be to play a practical joker as Bob to some woman by the name of Sharon Johnson, who you guys know. Jason says Tony offered him $500 to do this. He says he and Tony met Sharon at the mall. And then Tony talked Sharon into going to the construction site. Jason says Tony and Sharon rode in her green Subaru and Jason followed in his truck. But this time, Jason says when they all arrived at the construction site, he didn't stay back by his truck. Jason says Ken Johnson met all of them there. He says Ken and Sharon had a big argument. He says Ken accused Sharon of cheating on him. Then he says Sharon turned away and Ken pulled out a knife and stabbed her in the back.

[Detective Neil Scott]

She turned her back and he pulled out a knife.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Jason says he watched as Ken continued to stab Sharon while Tony took off her shirt and fondled her breasts. Lammy asks if anyone else stabbed Sharon. Jason says Tony did. Lammie doesn't believe it. He tells Jason he keeps making himself look like an angel in the story. He says, the jury will tear you apart if you're not telling the truth. Here.

[Detective Neil Scott]

I am trying to, Sergeant. I don't want to go through no more bullshit.

[Karen Carroll]

I just want to get this over.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Out of my life. Jason says I'm telling the truth, Sergeant. I don't want to go through no more bullshit. I just want to get this over and out of my life. Still, Lammy doesn't buy it. He says, but okay, you can help us out more than this. Where is the shirt and where is the knife? Police hadn't been able to find either. Jason says he doesn't know. Lammy asks, who moved the car? Why did the car show up Saturday morning at Sears? Jason doesn't have an answer. He says, I want so much to get this over with. Lammy is getting frustrated.

[Detective Neil Scott]

Why in black man would you tell us this much and still leave out the tr. The essence of the truth? I have not seen a breaking point in you. What in Scott's name is the malady?

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Your mother.

[Detective Neil Scott]

Sitting right here. The Captain of Detectives and Veterans Police Department here. Sergeant Scott is here and I'm here. What is it going to take?

[Detective Roland Lammy]

I was threatened.

[Jason Carroll]

I was certainly.

[Detective Neil Scott]

If I would open my mouth, I would be dead. By who? Johnson?

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Jason says, after Sharon was killed, Ken threatened to do the same to Jason if he told anyone. Jason says that's the reason he's been scared to tell the whole story. He's afraid for his life. Detective Lanny and Jason's mom Karen tell him they can protect him, but they keep saying they need the truth. Jason says, I am trying to be so fucking truthful. Lammy fires back, well, why don't you skip trying and just be truthful? Lammy says, come on, Jason. If you were paid $500 by Ken Johnson, you did a lot more than what you told us. Then Lammy adds, and I suspect that is not the accurate amount you got. Jason says, that's right, and then says, I got about two grand. Then Karen jumps in and asks what Jason did with the money. Lammy says, tell us that. Make something believable. Jason tells them he spent it on marijuana. And here it seems like Lammy just totally loses his patience. He starts to raise his voice, telling Jason to imagine that a jury is listening. And meanwhile, judging by the sound of Jason's voice, it feels like that breaking point that Lanny keeps mentioning is just around the corner. At one point, Jason is crying on his knees, arms wrapped around his mother's legs.

[Detective Neil Scott]

The jury is listening to you. You sound like a criminal, not a guy that's made a terrible mistake. Sergeant, it's not that easy. I hope that you'll understand that. I understand it, but it's not going.

[Karen Carroll]

To be just like the.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Spit it out.

[Detective Neil Scott]

I can't. I want to so much.

[Karen Carroll]

Can't do it. Why can't you? What, are you scared? Are you freaking scared? Of course you're freaking scared. These guys are going to help you. We're not going to sit and jump on your ass and shoot you down. I feel like I'm getting jumped on.

[Detective Neil Scott]

My ass and d down now we.

[Karen Carroll]

Want the truth out of you. Nobody is going to be able to help you anymore until you come forth with all the information that they need. Do you think I'm going to love you when he laughs? I don't know.

[Detective Neil Scott]

I don't know.

[Karen Carroll]

And I'm going to stand by you through this. You are the link to things to put justice and puff behind fr. If you want a knife, if you put a knife night in that woman, I want to know. You stabbed her, didn't you?

[Jason Carroll]

Yes, I do.

[Karen Carroll]

How many times did you stab her? All right, I. I just wanted him to be truthful.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Just a few weeks later, Karen described her role in that interrogation in the outline tape.

[Karen Carroll]

And the only way that anyone could help him get over these fears was they had to know the truth so they would know what they were dealing with. And I, you know, I assured him that no matter what happened, that I still loved him.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Jason Carroll started the day recanting one confession about witnessing a murder. By the end of the day, he's given a second confession about committing the murder. It's one of the many ways Jason's story changes during his second interrogation. With each change, the story gets more and more incriminating. Detectives ask Jason again and again about the murder weapon. At first, Jason says he destroyed the knife in a fire, along with the shirt Sharon was wearing, the one police never found. Then he says he threw the knife in a river. He says the knife belonged to Ken Johnson. Finally, he says it belonged to him. Jason's mom asks, is it a small brown pocket knife? Jason says yes. Karen realizes she has the knife at home. She'd recently found it in the laundry. Jason also changes his story about who stabbed Sharon first. By the end of his second interrogation, after being questioned by police for about 11 hours over two days, Jason says he stabbed Sharon first. When asked why Ken wanted to kill Sharon, at first, Jason says he doesn't know. Then he says it was because Sharon had caught Ken raping his adopted daughter Lisa. Then he adds to that that she'd caught him raping his daughter and discovered that Ken had murdered someone else. For the police, all these changes in Jason's story were evidence of its authenticity. They saw a young man who didn't want to admit what he'd done, who was fighting at every stage to not admit to the cops, to his mother, maybe to himself, the full extent of his involvement in a horrific killing. Almost a year after Detective Lammy took over the Sharon Johnson investigation, he finally had the evidence he needed to take down the Person he felt was most responsible, Ken Johnson. At one point during Jason's second interrogation, Lammy even airs his frustration about how Ken had so far eluded him. He tells Jason, Ken Johnson is on the street in Warwick, Rhode island, laughing in our face with his lawyer coaching him on how to avoid proper police homicide investigative technique. And that's a fact of life. That's what we in the police department have to put up with today. Detective Lammy let Jason's parents take him home again that night after the interrogation, a pretty remarkable thing for a police officer to do two nights in a row. Jason had admitted to some level of participation in a murder, and police didn't arrest him. They let him go home. The thing is, when people get arrested, the Constitution guarantees them lawyers the first piece of advice any defense lawyer gives to a client who's held in police custody. Shut up. Stop talking to the cops. Lammie, of course, would have known all this. So Lammie let Jason go home that Saturday night, November 25, 1989. It was one of the last nights Jason was free. It took several conversations before Jason would really talk to me about what happened during his interrogations. I know this is a dumb question, but were you scared during that interrogation?

[Jason Carroll]

Are you fucking kidding me? What? You're being accused of first degree homicide. Wouldn't you be scared when you didn't do nothing?

[Detective Roland Lammy]

I get the feeling that Jason's emotions about it, even after 34 years, are so raw, so vivid, that he figures it's just best not to go there. But Jason also knows for his innocence claim to have a chance, he's going to have to talk about it. People want to know, if you're innocent, why did you say all of that? Still, it's really hard for Jason. The first time he and I talked about the interrogation, I asked him a question that kind of set him off. I'm not going to tell you what the question was, only because it's about something we haven't gotten to yet. But just know, the way I asked it, listening back, I get why it got under Jason's skin.

[Jason Carroll]

But when you're being fucking, you're constantly being told, you know you did this and you did this when you know you didn't, but you're being told you did after and after. And so now you're pissing me off. See, this is. And this is where the PTSD kicks in. Jay. I cannot. I get so. I get so frustrated and I get so angry because of what's been done to me, and nobody gives a Fucking shit. What this fucking punk bitch did to me. And to sit there and try to describe it and explain it to you, I fucking can't.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

The spotlight that has swung back onto Jason's case, the possibility of finally being believed, my casual sounding questions about possibly the most traumatic event in his life. It all finally broke the ceasefire. There was an awkward silence. I suggested we talk about something else, and we did, or tried to for a few minutes. But then Jason wanted to explain more about how he was feeling.

[Jason Carroll]

So I want to go back to my loud burst and I guess I apologize for that. Sometimes this is what happens when I try to talk about it. It's the scars that I have. And I don't know, I don't know any other way because it just frustrates me so much. It just, I don't know, I don't know how to. I mean, I'm lost for a quick second because it's. You have one minute remaining.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

The prison phone system, with its terrible timing, reminded us our hour was almost up.

[Jason Carroll]

This lady's going to cut us off, so before she does, I hope you have a good day. And again, I apologize.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

The next time we spoke, Jason apologized again, even though I kept telling him he didn't need to. He told me the anger comes from a place of feeling humiliated by what happened to him.

[Jason Carroll]

You know, for me, it's an embarrassing time of my life because like I told you last time, I let somebody else take my will and bend it to theirs. And I feel embarrassed and I feel fucking ashamed. You know, they took a fucking kid and they bent it to what they wanted. You know how fucking ashamed I am about.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

According to Jason, Detective Lammy started bending his will from almost the moment they sat down together at the National Guard armory back in 1989.

[Jason Carroll]

I'm at the armory and then they come, they come in and I, and I'm stuck in a tiny ass break room and I want to talk to me about Anthony Puff. Okay, well then the next thing you know, the. I'm being accused of murder.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

How did it turn to that? Like, take me, I, I, I have no idea.

[Jason Carroll]

You know, I, I don't remember the training to get your tire tracks down. I'm like, that's what? Impossible.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

What did they say about tire tracks?

[Jason Carroll]

Yeah, they tried to say they found my tire tracks. I'm like, that's impossible.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Jason says Detective Lammy told him police found his tire tracks at the construction site, which is not true. At trial, Lammy denied ever telling Jason this, but either way, Jason Says that was the dynamic of the interrogations. Lammy had all the answers and he was just guessing at what was right and what was wrong.

[Jason Carroll]

They were already dead set, in my opinion. They were already dead set on fucking turn me into ass. I'm sorry. I'm in there on my own. I got no help, no nothing. Nothing. I'm trying to dig myself out of something I didn't do and nobody's listening. It was already in the over my head.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

After his parents took him home from the armory that Friday, Jason says his mom gave him a Valium to help him sleep. The next morning, when Jason tried to take back his confession at the kitchen table, he says his parents didn't really believe him. Then Lammy called, and Jason and his mom went to the Bedford Police Department for Jason's second interrogation.

[Jason Carroll]

I do remember being yelled and screamed at. I do remember that asshole asking me questions. And anytime I'd answered the wrong way, like nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. And it just kept going on and on and on. I remember being so wiped out, I tried to go to sleep under the table. They wouldn't let me.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Jason describes the experience as having his world turned upside down. It didn't make sense to him. He was a soldier with a soldier for a dad and a cop. As a mom, he was conditioned to revere authority. But now, he says, they were forcing him down a path he knew wasn't right. Jason says the interrogations were more intense than anything he'd ever been through, including basic training in the military, which was nothing.

[Jason Carroll]

Nothing. Because, you know, you figure, you know, they take a person, they break you down, and they build you back up. But what I went through with these fucking people. Yet military got nothing on that.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Here's what Jason says he remembers about what actually happened the night Sharon Johnson was murdered. Jason and Tony were scheduled to work together that night at High Tech. They had a Burger King in Boston to clean. Clean out. Tony needed a ride to work, so Jason gave him one. But Jason decided that night he was done with High Tech. He decided to quit. So he dropped Tony off, but he didn't go in himself.

[Jason Carroll]

I hated that job. And that's why I remember that part, because I don't. I've never quit a job. I hated that job.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Jason says it's possible he gave Tony a ride to the mall that night to help him move a car, but he's not sure. And that's pretty much all he can remember, which is either suspicious or totally reasonable, depending on whether you buy his confession. But If Jason didn't do it, why would he remember that night? The first time he was interrogated about that night was almost a year and a half after the fact. There would have been no particular reason to keep a detailed timeline or to have an alibi handy. Or of course, Jason could simply be lying. Or of course, Detective Lammy could simply be lying. But almost always, the word of a cop wins out. On the next episode of Bear Brook Season 2, a true crime Story. Another interrogation seems to add to the evidence against Jason and Ken Johnson.

[Detective Neil Scott]

I need some milk because I can't remember everything that happened. Okay, well, what you do I don't. The specific things you want to know. I can't remember. Okay, and tell us what you do remember then. Okay, let's continue. What you do. I remember stabbing her and choking her. That's the only thing I remember doing. Who else choked her?

[Detective Roland Lammy]

And Karen Carroll shares an alleged secret that changes everything.

[Jason Moon]

Jason's mom came in to meet with.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

Me and I knew right away that.

[Jason Moon]

There was going to be a.

[Detective Roland Lammy]

A problem. A true crime Story is reported and produced by me, Jason Moon. It's edited by Katie Culinary. Additional report reporting and research by Paul Kuno Booth Editing help from Lauren Chulgin, Daniela Ali, Sarah Plord, Taylor Quimby, Mara Hoplamazian and Todd Bookman. Our news director is Dan Baric. Our director of podcasts is Rebecca Lavoie. Fact checking by Danya Suleiman. Sarah Plord created our original artwork as well as our website bearbrookpodcast.com additional photos and videos. Gabby Lozado Original music for the series was created by me, Jason Moon. Bear Brook is a production of the Document Team at New Hampshire Public Radio.

[Jason Moon]

Sa.

[Todd Bookman]

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