B (3:39)

But the point being, if you want to have a great career, you can't tell 12 different priorities. You sort of mentioned the two big priorities are family and career or family and business. Is that a fair statement? I mean, you can't be. Well, you're really building a career out playing golf every day, out doing guys nights out all the time. There's only so many things you could do, so. So it's really focused on for you, family and career.

A (4:04)

And I agreed. And I think like most things in life, it's all about balance and figuring it out. Some, some people, a big part of their career might be getting out and taking clients, golfing on a regular basis and building that relationship, or there might be a stage in their career where that's important and that's fine too. But that doesn't work for everybody. And so I think the biggest thing is figure out where your priorities lie and how much time it takes to succeed at the level you want to succeed in connection with each of those avenues. I think for most people, that means having two, three, maybe four at most areas of focus. For other people, they may have better time management skills, they may not sleep, or they may have a bunch of priorities that are each of a lower time commitment. But doing well at anything takes a lot of time being a Good father takes a lot of time. Being a good husband takes a lot of time. Being a good partner at a law firm clearly takes a lot of time. So I think it's navigating that and managing all the different competing priorities. And the first thing is understanding what those are, but also how much time you need to commit to do them. Well.

B (5:09)

Thank you. When you look at both back at your career and other careers that you've seen people perform really well, is there a specific habit or mindset that shows up regularly amongst people that perform really well?

A (5:23)

Yeah, absolutely. The first thing. And this very what? Very well, dovetails what we were just talking about, which is I think you have to know where you're trying to go and then have a plan to get there. And so I think coming out of law school, for example, I think it's very easy to say, I want to be a good lawyer. I think that's a very general topic, general concept. Everyone, no one goes to law school to be bad as a lawyer. But I think there's a difference between being a prosecutor versus being a defense attorney versus a transactional lawyer. Then the nature of the practice is different. So I think the first thing is figuring out where it is that you want to go so you can start charting the way to get there, having a plan, in other words, having a destination. If you want to be a big firm attorney and a partner at a big firm, and that's the goal, I think it's important to think about that at the outset and then start planning towards that and thinking about ways to get there. So the first thing I would say is having the goal in a corresponding plan, routinely checking in on your plan and updating it and making sure that progress is being made. And then the last thing, I think the people who are most talented and have the strongest careers, they show up every day. That consistency, you and I have talked about it on podcasts before. Having that consistency day in, day out, showing up, being consistent, delivering what people are expecting of you and exceeding it, and building that as a habit is important. That consistency of thriving is a habit that you need to build.

B (6:54)

And you talked about that. And I use this example because I know how hard this is and wasn't able to do it. You were valedictorian your law school class, which means you finished first. And you often said it wasn't necessarily that you were the brightest in the class, though you probably were one of the brightest in the class, because everybody that I know that was valedictorian was the brightest in the class. But you always, always said a lot of it was reliability and showing up for every single test, every single assignment. How important is that in building a great professional career?

A (7:26)

I think it's incredibly important. And your point about the law school? I mean, it is. Look, I went to law school with a ton of incredibly bright, incredibly capable people. Some of them likely are smarter than me. And at the end of the day, they could have had one bad day, one really bad exam, one disappointment, I think showing up consistently and delivering. And I don't know that I'm at my absolute 100% best on every single occasion, on every single day, but I think I'm pretty close to it every day. I think even if I'm a little bit under the weather, even if there's something going on, personally, I'm in a disagreement with family or someone is sick and I'm trying to navigate that someone passes away. Unfortunately, I think I'm able to do a pretty good job compartmentalizing different facets of my life. And when it comes time to focus on work and delivering client service or showing up to court, doing the job, doing what's necessary and doing it at a high level. And that's certainly something I brought as a skill in law school. That isn't really about smarts. It's just about being able to come, compartmentalize different issues, focus on the task at hand, and do that task well. Even if there's other things, you know, nagging in the background of your mind, just keeping them there for the time being to accomplish what's necessary.

B (8:42)

Right. That ability to compartmentalize is a very hard thing for so many people to do when they're having challenges in other parts of their life. Can they still bring 100% to their core business, their core job, whatever their profession is? That's a hard skill and a hard thing to do for many people and takes a lot of work. I, I, I love that point. It's not easy to do it at the highest level. You see that rise very quickly in their careers and sustain it over a long period of time. One of the people in our group is a gentleman named Tim Fry, who just says that this fantastic career, doing great, great growth, many others as well. Holly Buckley, Amber Walsh. So many. Some people don't rise as quickly or don't ultimately succeed at that level. What separates those from that really end up thriving versus not what, what are a couple of things that separate those.

A (9:31)

Sure, absolutely. So, I mean, look, the first thing is you sort of frame the question on the assumption that people are talented and hardworking. And I think that is the right starting point. You have to have the right amount of talent. There are some people don't have the exact skill set of the exact talent that they need to have to reach the highest level. So I think the first thing is making sure that you have the talent. Hard work, it's a little easier to put in the extra hours, not easy to do, but anyone can do that. But having the right talent is usually important. I think the second thing, and unfortunately this dovetails something I said earlier. So I'm not trying to be repetitive, but planning and figuring out what you're trying to accomplish is critically important. It's hard to have a really terrific career and get to the highest levels if you don't know what levels you're aiming at. And I remember sitting down with you years ago when I was first joining the firm and talking about things that I viewed as important in the progression of a lawyer at a big law firm. And I remember your response was sort of, yeah, that's great. Good for you. But here's some things I think you should work on. And your pathway made a heck of a lot more sense than what I was thinking about it. So having that plan and direction, knowing where you're going and checking in on it is important. And then I think the other dynamic, which it can't be taught, it's innate, although it can be worked on, is having the right personality and fit and leadership to work well with others, inspire confidence in others as you're coming up, and then be able to inspire confidence in others when you become a leader and are helping to really move up. And you mentioned a few of our colleagues at McGuire Woods, Holly and Amber, both current department chair and former department chair of the healthcare group, both of whom were terrific when they were associates, terrific as young partners and terrific as leaders. And they inspired confidence in leaders when they were coming up. And now they inspire confidence in the team around them. And that is that leadership skill that they have the innate ability to connect with people, to build a rapport and to inspire confidence. Tim also does that very well. That's. That's something that I think separates people at the highest levels of really being successful. But it's. It's something you could work on, but there is a level of being able to interact well with others, recognize what they're looking for, feed that back to them in a compelling manner, and then inspire others as you get more seniors so that they're doing the same with you. Now in the leadership role, I think that that really separates the highest performers.

B (11:58)

How important is it? I know in terms of my own career, when I switched to our predecessor firm, Ross and Hardee's, I was in a place where I was comfortable, I was able, I was happy and thus able to thrive. And how important is it that you're in the right environment that works for you to be able to have a great career?

A (12:19)

I think that's critically important. Critically, critically important. First of all, you spend a lot of time with your colleagues. There's no way around that, I think, at any job, unless you're a solo practitioner or you run your own business. But even then you have clients. There's always going to be interpersonal demands and a level where you have to work with other people and ideally you have to really enjoy those people. I, I tell my kids all the time I feel very fortunate that some of my closest friends are colleagues of mine and that I've met through work, whether it's clients or partners or associates. But I tell my kids all the time, you may not have a job that you like, but you really have to aim to have a job you at least don't dislike. It's got to be at least tolerable. So I, I think that notion of being able to build those relationships and connect with people is critically important day to day. It will make your success easier and it'll make your life much easier. It's hard to really thrive when you're unhappy day to day. And I look at that for my own career when I switched firms. Now it'll be 16 years ago in a few weeks. It's not that the firm I came from was a bad place. I think there's lots of people who are great lawyers there and do good work and treat their clients well and treat each other well. It wasn't the right fit for me. I couldn't be myself, I couldn't run my own practice, my, my clients, my interactions with colleagues, the way I felt comfortable doing it. For others, it's a great fit. For me, it wasn't. McGuire woods has been a really good fit. We respect individuality and I think we know how people are. We've built a good team because of it. But for me, it's critically important.

B (13:59)

If you want to be a great leader and have a great career, how important is it to know yourself really well and to have your own self awareness about what your strengths are and what you're great at?

A (14:09)

Incredibly important and incredibly challenging. I, I think it is One of my strengths that I know I'm not everybody's cup of tea and that I've got my own way of doing things in my own personality. I'm loud and vocal, I'm opinionated and share those opinions. And I think finding the right place, a group where I am appreciated for that and people see the value in that is critically important to me. And I think others are in the same spot. You could be quiet and somewhat reserved, but if you're doing that in a way where when you talk people recognize that you're articulate and thoughtful, that could be a good fit too. I don't think it's one size fits all, but I think figuring out the right fit is critically important for everybody and it's not going to be the same for each person. I think McGuire woods is a wonderful place. It doesn't mean it's for everybody, but I think we do a good job for the people that are doing well at the firm.

B (15:07)

David, let me ask you the next thing. How important is it in building a great career that you build that around your strengths and how much time do you spend on really pursuing things that are your strengths? One of your great strengths is both your brother. You've got this crazy mix of talents of being incredibly analytical, plus very good at speaking, articulating, talking to people. How important is it you build a career around your strengths? And how much time do you spend working on one's weaknesses? How do you divide those two things

A (15:37)

so the short is. And appreciate the guide words. I think about it less in terms of how to divide the time and more about making sure that that I'm doing my best to emphasize my strengths and externally and showcase them and continue to improve them while trying to, as best as possible, minimize my weaknesses, improve where I can, and not make them as apparent to others. I think that's often one of the challenges, is not just demonstrating your weaknesses day in, day out. I had a discussion earlier today with an opposing attorney that frankly, in my opinion, stepped in the mud during the call. And I think, unfortunately, that attorney kind of kept digging once they were in the mud, even when I was trying to give them a rope to get out. And I think it was. I'll say they were being stubborn in my estimation. I think figuring out how to balance strengths and weaknesses is key. So for me, the first thing is figuring out where your strengths lie and what your weaknesses are. One of them I just alluded to, which is I am fairly unapologetically myself, that that is very much Something I appreciate about where I currently am situated in life, that I'm able to be myself. But even when I was more junior, and that probably wasn't always the best move, I am pretty day to day consistently who I am. And so figuring out what that means and who that works well with, how I can steer into people who appreciate that and maximize where it will take me versus minimizing interactions or doing my best to navigate those dynamics that are a little trickier is important. But I think the key is first figuring out your strengths and weaknesses. Figure out how you can emphasize those strengths to other people that are your clients, that are your peers, that are your friends and develop them. And then it's turning weaknesses into strengths where possible. But if not, some things you can improve. Like, you know, my, my golf game is a disaster, as you are keenly aware, but it's a work in progress and one day maybe at least a modest disaster as compared to an abject failure. I think figuring out those weaknesses matters if that works in work life as well. Not everything is going to be a strength, but figuring out the weaknesses, incremental improvement and minimizing it is key, I would think.

B (17:54)

As you talk about the golf game and so forth, and you talk about really building careers around strengths, having seen you as a warrior and senior, as a golfer, I would disproportionately spend your time on the practice of law and being fantastic there, doubling down on your legal skills because you're a brilliant leader, brilliant, brilliant person. And I think the, you know, it's not important how you golf really talking for. If you're advising somebody and building a career, and you do a lot of mentoring of younger lawyers today, what do you advise them? If they want to be great at what they're doing, they want to be at the top of their field, what should they be doing and what should they stop doing? I know a few of the people that you mentor. What would you tell them about? Look, if you want to be great, if you want to be a total leader at what you do or choosing what you're going to be great at, what you. What should they be doing the next several years and what shouldn't they be doing?

A (18:50)

Yeah, I mean, the first thing is I think soliciting multiple opinions and feedback from different sources is critically important, particularly at a young stage in a career. There's not one right way, one path to build a successful career, to become a partner at a law firm, to become president, CEO of a company, to be a manager, whatever the given designation. Might be. I don't think in almost any case, there's going to be one road to get there. And so talking to people who have built careers in different ways, who have had success that you might want to emulate, getting their perspectives and then really thinking about those things, thinking about the feedback that you've received, thinking about how it might apply to you. Because the way one person has done things may not be the best path for a different person. It may not fit their skill sets. It may not fit the effort and approach that they want to take or that they're, frankly, best suited to take. So I think it's critically important to solicit different opinions, to actually listen to people who are giving you feedback and discussing potential approaches, and then to spend really a lot of time putting together a plan that starts with, what am I trying to accomplish? Whether that's in 10 years, whether it's five years. And I would think about it into each of those, what's my plan for this year? What's my plan for the next five years? What's my plan for the next decade? Where am I trying to go? And then start working out how to get there. And so I think the biggest thing I would tell people is think about what you're trying to accomplish, talk to other people who are where you think you want to go to figure out if it really is what you want to accomplish, and then talk to several of those people to learn how they've achieved the success in their careers, and then start picking apart those answers, not because you're criticizing them, and I wouldn't pick them apart to the people's faces. I'm saying internally, think about what you heard and how you can function that, you know, factor that into specific steps that are easy to apply for you as an individual to take those steps forward. And I think the inverse, where you talk about, you know, what is the biggest mistake is I think people who make rash decisions early, whether that's just deciding I'm going to be X or I'm not going to be Y, I already know. You know, I came out of law school, and I know I'm going to do this. Well, you come out of law school, you really don't know a whole heck of a lot. You learn a little bit about the law, you learn a little bit about how to think as a lawyer, but there's a lot that you don't know yet. And so I think making those bright line decisions early in one's career and then setting a path that may be A little bit more rigid than is best is a mistake I do see people make. And it tends to lead to burnout or having to pivot later in the career when you could have avoided some of that with a little bit more foresight and a little bit more openness to feedback early on.

B (21:45)

I'm going to ask you a question about reputation for a second. We're obviously in the social media world where people have reputations all over the board. And I'll give you a couple different examples, whether in the workplace or not the workplace, you know, one place at the workplace, One of our colleagues at one point famously took charge of the Coke and soda distribution program as to what sodas we're going to have, when we're going to have them, and, and we laugh at it.

A (22:14)

But.

B (22:14)

But there are certain positions you could put yourself in that are damaging to your reputation because people look at some of those things and think, like, why are you doing that? I know periodically you've commented on a different post or something like that, saying, you know, doesn't reflect well on you. Whatever it is, how important is it to sort of like live with some of your failures but also manage your reputation so you don't look like a lightweight? If you're trying to build a great reputation, you want to be a real person. But when somebody takes over management of the Coke dispensary, Coca Cola and sodas and so forth, I mean, obviously, you know, it led to lots of ridicule. How important is it that you will try to do the right thing, manage your reputation and position yourself right as well? And obviously it takes a backseat to substantive work and bringing in clients and business. But how important is it that reputation, you know, sort of perspective.

A (23:09)

Yeah, well, I mean, the first thing is I wouldn't have said ridicule instead of ridicule while I was trying to make that point. That would have been the first thing I did. The second thing is, I think it's really, it's a circular answer, but I think it's true, which is building your reputation is something that is done brick by brick and block by block. It takes a long time to build a reputation, a little bit of time to tear it down. So to me, the biggest thing is figuring out how you can burnish and build a strong reputation day in, day out, so that when you have a bad day when you might have, you know, a case doesn't go the way you want, a client is frustrated where you post something that maybe was not your best post ever, people look at that in the context of your overall performance, recognize this guy is still our guy. He's still our lawyer, he's still our business leader, he's still our manager, he's still our CEO, whatever it might be. He's built that for the last X number of years. He's done great work 750 times. So we're not going to think a lot about the mistake, the miss. So I think the key, you know, people talk about it takes years to build a reputation in, one day to destroy it. And I think as a general guardrail, that's just good conventional wisdom. But I think practically, if you spend your time intelligently building a reputation day in, day out, those slight mishaps, those slight misses, fit in the brighter context, the broader context of who you are. So they land and you joke about your post where I periodically will give you a hard time. But you've spent decades now building a career and a brand and a reputation where people trust you. They know that you're a straight shooter, they know that you're happy, you know, free to give your time, your advice. You're going to say what's on your mind, but also that you're a leader in multiple industries, frankly, at this point. So that if you have those posts that your joke doesn't quite land or whatever else, it fits in that broader context and is less of a concern. So we joke about the soda dynamic, but to me it's never about the soda. It's about are you doing the work day to day to be a true leader? Are you doing the work day to day to be a great lawyer or a great manager, a great podcaster, whatever it might be, so that when you're doing the soda dispensing, that's just the add on to what you're doing as compared to people wondering why there's such a focus on it.

B (25:39)

Yes. And another question, how important is it to sort of intentionally figure out where you're going with your career, what you're planning to do? How important is setting goals critically important?

A (25:51)

I think that's something that people should be doing from day one. But I think the, the, the key is it's critically important to have goals. It is critically important to put a plan in place, whether it's, you know, a detailed seven page plan versus bullet points on one sheet of paper with a marker typed up on your computer. But having a goal, having a plan to get there is critical, but I think more critical than that is, then go. At least as critical is the periodic review every Three months, every six months, every year, checking in, seeing your progress to your goals, seeing whether the steps you're taking have been productive. If they're not, you may want to pivot, seeing if you're not taking some of those steps. If you said, you know, for example, and I remember you used to tell young associates, you should write and speak 10 times a year, that should be your goal. And so I made that my goal. And I would take an inventory at the end of every year when putting together my business plan for the next year. How many times did I write something that was published somewhere each year, how many times did I speak? And it was a good way to keep myself honest because it was a very low benchmark to hit. So I think making the goal is critical, having a plan to get there is critical, but then actually checking in on what you're doing, how effective you've been in taking those steps and, and whether you're making the progress is important. And don't be shy about getting feedback. If you're working with colleagues you've built a rapport with that are your mentors or friends, peers, you should be able to sit down with them and say, this is what I'm trying to accomplish. Do you have concerns about that goal? Do you have feedback on how to get there?

B (27:29)

Have you seen people that you didn't think would have great careers turn into fantastic leaders or have great careers, you know, people that you wouldn't have expected, oh my goodness, this person's going to be a real leader at the top of their game. And anything that sort of they did or set them apart, that led them to greatness.

A (27:50)

Yes is the answer for sure. I think the biggest thing is self reflection and recognizing early when things are not quite landing the way you intend or the way they intended. I think being able to look at it, you know, we hire, you know, speaking for the firm, we hire people who have excelled in life, they've got into great law schools. We are hiring from great law schools. We're hiring people with great grades, great credentials. So, you know, you're bringing in folks, for example, to the law firm who have had a great deal of success in their careers. And not everybody hits a home run from day one. And so watching people adapt and seeing how they can figure out where they've missed. So that self reflection I think is important. And I've seen people who have, who have gone the other way as well, where they've had a couple mistakes early in their career and their response to it is, is to Say look, it wasn't that big a mistake or I don't really think I was wrong on this, I think I was right and everybody else is wrong. And I think those people consistently don't improve and don't do better. Because until they sort of recognize that it wasn't everyone else, it's them, I think it's harder. But the folks who I think have really done the pivot well is they've had the self reflection to recognize things aren't going quite as I want. Whether it's a bad review, whether it's feedback on a given assignment, whether it's a client interaction, I think you can sense those things. And so sitting down, talking to a mentor, talking to a friend, maybe it's at your level, like someone you're here and saying, look, here's what's going on, what's your advice? How do I start working towards it? And I would then say steer, you know, like driving, steer into the skid if you can think about and figure out where the issue is. Double down your efforts there. Show the folks who are concerned about it that you're committed, that your goal is to be at the firm or the business long term. You're going to take the steps necessary to correct that mistake and move things forward in a productive manner. And I think most environments are going to be productive. We don't want to invest extra time in hiring and recruiting that's expensive and time consuming. We want to make things work with folks that are already here that we were excited about it, invested in in the first instance. So it's figuring out that there is an issue and then putting a plan in place to move forward. And people can do that.

B (30:09)

And let me ask you a question. You're a resilient person by nature. How important is that resilience and can that be taught? Because anybody who has a great career is doubtless going to get punched in the face once in a while, have some setbacks. And that resilience is important. I know you yourself are very resilient, very strong minded, have that ability to bounce back. Many people don't have that. Is that a career differentiator or do people have to build that skill of being resilient and willing to take chances and have failures and build from that? How important is that? That ability to take on some risk and to be resilient when things don't go as you want them to go?

A (30:49)

Yeah. So first of all, I think some of it is innate or like it's a mindset and some of it is how people are wired. But I think a lot of it is keeping things in perspective and figuring out a lot of the roads lead back to the same place. If you know where you're trying to go in life, in your career, it's very easy to start thinking about, well, shoot, this was a minor. I mean, some things are major and they are major and you need to deal with them as such. But a lot of things feel major or feel significant, but are ultimately in the grand scheme of things, pretty minor. And I remember years ago, you know, I got a bad grade, a disappointing grade in college, and I was very unhappy about it. I mentioned it to my mother and she sort of said, did you do your best? And I said, yeah, I really think I did. She said that, don't worry about it. Sometimes things don't go well. And I remember sort of thinking I was going to get chewed out by her. And I think the much more realistic approach, which I remember that discussion, you know, 25 years later, give or take, I think is telling. And I think that's what's important. You can't necessarily make yourself resilient. I think you can consistently think about issues that arise in the context of a How big a deal was this really, you know, in the day to day existence of my life, how big a deal was this major? Was this minor? How hard is it going to be to bounce back? And then once you've sort of contextualized it, thinking about how you move forward, what the steps are to push forward, understanding that there was an issue, I think those things are very important and can help build that resilience, which to me more than anything else is just trying to keep things in the broader context as much as possible.

B (32:32)

Thank you so much, David. Before we finish up, I want to ask the audience any questions for David. I think the chat function is working. I hope so. Please feel free to ask or myself or again, text me the questions. 773-766-5322. David's been this incredible leader, incredible career. David, let me have you continue anything else you wanted to add in. And then does anybody in the audience have a question?

A (33:02)

No, the only thing I would add is, again, I think this is going to sound so trite, but a lot of these questions do focus on or come back to having the right perspective and thinking about what you're trying to accomplish and having a plan to get there. And then when things go badly, thinking articulately about, intelligently about how to bounce back. Like, you know, right now we did the webinar froze. We're going to figure out how to move forward productively as necessary. And if there aren't any questions, we'll be able to wrap it up and move on. As if Scott didn't freeze.

B (33:34)

Let me ask you a question, David. No, I think having a plan and a career plan is so important that you have goals. We have a plan, and, and then you have to have the energy and the talent to pursue that plan. But you've got to decide what you're trying to do. The plan doesn't have to be a 30 page business plan. It could be a two page plan. It could be a seven page plan. It could be bullet points to have some plan. Here's what I'm trying to do. Here's what I'm trying to accomplish. We have a great question. The audience you mentioned having good relationships with colleagues. Any thoughts and suggestions on how to build those. Those relationships?

A (34:09)

Yeah, I mean, the first thing is don't try and make them artificial. You know, I think, you know, we, we as a firm, for example, assign associate level and partner level mentors to every summer associate and then associate when they start with the firm. And I think conceptually it's terrific. I've served in those roles. But as I'm sure everybody who's listening appreciates, sometimes those aside, relationships work great and sometimes they're not the right fit. I think, you know, for example, you've been probably the most significant mentor for me over the course of my career, but I don't think you've ever been assigned in a formal mentoring role. To me, we built a rapport. We have a good relationship and you are always very generous with your time and advice, which I've always appreciated. And you tried to reciprocate by doing good work in return. So I think the biggest thing is figuring out how to build those connections naturally and not trying to force it. Building actual commonality. Figure out where you have a good personality fit, which people you have that fit with, where there's going to be people who are receptive to giving advice and then doubling down your efforts there. I think the second part of it is building good human connections. I mean, we are ultimately all people. We have our own personalities. We have our own problems. One of the things I really like about the firm is I think the firm respects individuals and that people have a life outside of the office. So learning about your colleagues as people, I think is critically important. And I think our chairman, McGuire Woods. Chairman. The first time I spoke with him, I can still remember the discussion. It was shoot over a decade ago at this point. But the first thing he said to me is, tell me about yourself. And I started by telling him about my practice because I thought that's what he was asking. And he let me speak for a few minutes and then very politely redirected me and said, I've heard about your practice. You know, I sort of know who you are work wise. I'm asking about you. You know, tell me about your family. Are you married? Do you have kids? What gets you up in the morning? And I think it really encapsulates who he is as a person where he can build a connection with anyone and do it quickly. But having that dynamic, figuring out who people are, what makes them tick, and learning about them individually and then thinking about them as people and building that rapport is the best way to build those relationships and to advance your career. Not doing it for the purpose of advancing the career, but being sincere and getting to know people, I think is critically important.

B (36:38)

Thank you for listening to this version of the Becker Business and Becker Private Equity Podcast again featured David Pivnick on one of our webinars on building great careers. Thank you so much, David, for joining us, and thank you to our audience for listening. Thank you.