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Why Middle Market Companies Are Rethinking the CFO Role with Scott Moran of Sutker Moran 5-26-26
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Scott Becker
This is Scott Becker with the Becker Business and the Becker Private Equity Podcast. We feature regularly CEOs and founders thrilled today to visit with Scott Moran of Sutka Moran. Scott is going to talk to us about what the firm does, where it's focused today, how it's grown so well and a lot more. Scott, can you take a moment and tell us a little bit about yourself and about Sutka Moran?
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Scott Moran
Yeah, thanks Scott, Appreciate you having me on. Excited to join today and chat with you. So a little bit about myself, you know, typical accounting background. Found myself meeting my partner several years ago in kind of a burgeoning industry at the time, which we maybe didn't realize. So my partner Howard Sucker, who founded the firm, pivoted off and founded, saw an opportunity to work with companies that were growing and profitable or distressed but just lacked the internal financial acumen. And that's ultimately how Sutra Moran was born. So, so we talk about the firm today and what we do. So we're a business consulting and CFO services firm. We specialize in delivering high level financial acumen at less cost. And so who we're serving is primarily middle market companies, typically those up to 200 million in revenue. We've started to see more and more opportunities above that scale which we can dive into today. And ultimately what we do is we have three different service lines, so permanent financial management, interim financial management and project based consulting. So the permanent is where the company decides from day one to hire us to lead their financial department, ultimately making that decision as a long term solution. The interim, you know, frankly we treat it the same way. We come in, we onboard the client the same way, but the company is not certain if we're going to be the long term solution or just an interim solution until they ultimately find that W2. And then the project based consulting is again utilizing that acumen of being a cfo, being a controller, being a consultant and focusing on the project and needs of that business. So it could be the turnaround, consulting and restructuring work. It could be helping a growing and profitable business dealing with the challenges of growth. And often, you know, we find ourselves as well in M and A transaction. So talked a little bit about who we served there in the beginning, but that lower middle market space, you know, more than half our clients fall into that 20 to 150 million in revenue. And we focus heavily in the greater Chicago market. We do have somebody out west in LA with somebody in Denver and somebody in Charleston, but most of our team is here, Most of our clients are here and serving kind of across the board manufacturing, distribution, service and construction. Kind of the last thing I'll say there to highlight the firm is, you know, one of the benefits and things we talk about setting us apart as we've continued to grow, build and develop is when you hire the firm, you not only get one individual, you get the experience of a team. So you get access to professionals that have 20, 30, 40 years of experience. And ultimately what we're trying to do is meet that company as what they need. That's the entrepreneurial side of our firm. What does the company need and can we provide that value? The second is, you know, leveraging not only that experience, but process. So I kind of mentioned it briefly at the beginning. My partner Howard, you know, started the firm in 2013 and I joined him a few years later. And so much of our focus on building the firm has been, you know, consistency and quality, consistency of process and approach. And we can leverage that, we can leverage that to be efficient, we can leverage that to drive costs down. And then we can also leverage the experience of the team that we're not a fractional solution. I think fractional is such a popular commonplace term right now, but we really are a full coverage solution. So what does the company need at that point in time? And then we can leverage our team and our experience to provide that. And then the last point to all of that is that saving on fees or saving on cost, when you're able to flex your team's involvement, flex the experience that's needed for the company, you know, ultimately that allows us to drive the fee to be significantly lower. And when we say fee, you know, often we're compared to a W2 employee. So what's the equivalent if I hired a W2 versus I hired a firm like you guys to do it. So that's what we're in. That's we're excited about. You know, the market continues to shift. A lot of good stuff going on. We continue to grow and looking for, you know, more and more opportunities and people know us and opportunities to help companies, you know, do better.
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Scott Becker
And take a moment on how sort of you, you met the market so well. It seems like you've built this great team at a time when exactly the type of companies you work with, mid market companies, lower mid market companies and bigger, are really trying to figure out how to staff right. The CFO seat, the controller seat and so forth. Among sort of both this, this shortage of CPAs plus this evolution of artificial intelligence. Talk about sort of how you accelerated growth into that market and how you sort of look at that opportunity because it seems like you just hit the market exactly right, with a great deep team at what you do. Talk about sort of that hitting that product market fit.
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Scott Moran
Yeah. You know, Scott, I wish to say we knew exactly what was going to happen, what was going to change. I think sometimes there's a little bit of luck in terms of timing. So as I go back and kind about when the firm was started in 2013 and a lot of it was worked on, I'll call it pre Covid. You know, we worked on process, we worked on how could we jump in and effectively take over the CFO seat and do that for companies, whether it was on site or remote. So we've been building our processes and our protocols around how to effectively do that and how to give these companies what they need. So you touched on it, you touched on AI there, you touched on the change in CPA arena. And I would also point to Covid as a change in the way we work. So those are three big areas that have significantly changed really in the last five to six years. So we back up to the time from I talk about is we're developing and we're building all these processes and we're starting to build our team in the late 2000 teens. And then Covid happens. And so the way people work started to change. Right. Because they weren't in the office or they couldn't be in the office. But as a firm, we had already been operating that way. We couldn't be at every one of our clients every day. So we had to be able to access information remotely. We had to be able to have things a little bit faster on the technology Side which historically in the middle market or lower middle market, not all companies are ahead of the curve there. So you've got that going on. So we felt well poised and built at that point to capture a lot of opportunity as companies started to think about things differently. So Covid forced a little bit of that. People are thinking about things differently. How can we work remotely, how can we be in the office, how do we access this information, how do we do it efficiently? We as a firm had already been thinking that way. The second piece of that you talk about cpa, you mentioned it there, but I've been watching that because I lived it and I continue to live it. When I was in college and sitting for the CPA exam, it was at 150 hours. And that changed right around 2001. And so the last 25 years to be a CPA, you know, you had to stay for an additional year or you had to find a way to get those 30 additional credit hours. Whether you're doing it nights, weekends, summers. I packed it into four years. But for a lot of people it was, you know, doing an extra year, doing a master's. And so the trend over the last 25 years since that change, you've seen a significant drop and the overall amount of people taking the CPA exam, the old and then translate to the amount of people that are passing. So there's some crazy stats out there that we talk about, you know, 75% of those CPAs going to be retiring the next 10 to 15 years. You've got, you know, if you look at what I just talked about over 25 years, you know, slowly eroding the amount of people entering the field as well. And Those, you know, 25 years graduate college, you're at the 45 to 50 year old range. A lot of those would be positions in management at this point in time. So as you look at the supply and demand, but just the typical individual in this arena, you've got less people that have been coming up into it over the last 20 plus years and you've got an acceleration on the retirement side, which is not just our industry but a lot of industries. So you got a huge gap in the middle. So companies are thinking about it differently. Think about how do I get the talent, how do I get the dollars and cents or costs that make sense to my business. And now this opportunity to outsource the CFO seat is becoming better understood. A lot of people are Talking about fractional CFOs now and the word fractional, which often implies you know, part time, half in, half out, but we really are a full coverage firm. And so if a company can think about it differently, can get access to that talent while the supply is shrinking, we're a new solution. And we're a new solution that's been around and kind of building both our team. We've got a great team of people that aren't, you know, just one or two years out. We got people that have significant experience and have significant experience within the firm. And then the third piece you actually mentioned it too is the AI. So right now what we're seeing a lot of is there's a lot of talk about AI. I think we're all trying to understand how it's going to impact our market and what's going to be applicable. And things are changing, but you still need decision makers. And so I see the roles, especially in accounting and finance continue to become more and more efficient. But you need a leader, you need a cfo, you need a controller to be able to make decisions. Maybe you can get the data faster, but you need to make decisions. So the opportunity to outsource your financial management, don't look at it as a 40 hour role. You can have a firm like us in there and creating those fishes. So all those things are kind of coming together. Scott is a perfect storm in terms of timing. And you see it in the marketplace a lot. Companies rethinking, how could I hire for this solution? I think, you know, companies go through a lot of turnover, they find a really good person and that really good person moves on to the next best thing. So holding on to great talent can be difficult. That's, that's another thing for us. Once you hire us, you know, we don't quit, we're not an employee, you know, we don't look for the next best job. We're there to provide that CFO controller and high level value to the company. So I mix all those things together so that, you know, we're very, very fortunate with timing we entered the marketplace, but excited about that. We're not new to the game, you know, we're not trying to figure it out right now. We're just trying to continue to add to our team, great people, enhance our processes and become even stronger and better with a great team of individuals that have been doing this with us for a long time. So it's an exciting time to be in the space as it continues to evolve. And you know, they're rolling back those CPA requirements now. I think Illinois goes back to 120, effective January 1, 2027. But it's going to take time for those individuals not only take the exams, come into the workforce and eventually get to that management level, which is where we're focused, the CFO and controller level.
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Scott Becker
And take a second on this. There's so many things you mentioned that I want to dig into just a little bit. But this concept of in this sort of technology acceleration world, you, Howard Satkar, your team have so many people that you think of as sort of deeply talented trusted advisors. How important is that role today with the evolution and acceleration of technology that you've really got people that know this is what has to be done, this is what we should be thinking about, this is what we should be looking at. How important is that ability to distill that as a trusted advisor and not just sort of get books done? Talk about that a little bit.
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Scott Moran
Yeah, it's a great point, Scott. I think, you know, a lot of companies talk about, you know, I don't have that CFO or I've never had that cfo because when I talk CFO controller, there's two different levels there. The controller we really look at is like you said, books done, timely, inaccurate financials, a little bit more the historical viewpoint, what happened or what's already happened, do we have that information? And then the go forward side, the CFO a little more strategic, forward looking, oftentimes an FP and a role blended into that role as a middle market company. And so it's more the forward look. What's happening next? What is our cash flow going to look like? Are we going to make an acquisition? Are we going to expand the business in a little bit more that critical thinking, high level thinking, but also having the experience. Our team, as you mentioned, Howard Stuck, you're my partner, having the experience 30, 40 years, seeing companies go through different cycles, you know, we talk about a lot. A growing business is difficult. You've got so many decisions you can make. You can go left, you can go right and that's going to have a big impact on kind of maybe the next phase or the next decision you have to make. And so if you're surrounding yourself with great advisors, great individuals that have experience, maybe in that situation, in that industry, have done the ERP conversion while making an acquisition and all the other things that can happen, you know, you can leverage that as a team. But AI, you know, kind of where you let off there too. A lot of what we're seeing is advanced technology and I think the two are getting a Little bit blended. But banks have invested a ton of money. Obviously the ERP kind of the large players invest money. How these systems integrate, how they become more efficient, talking to each other, minimize maybe some of the manual nature of tasks. So a lot of the advanced technology is kind of already in place and getting that into the middle market companies and making those processes more efficient is a lot of what's happening right now. AI is accelerating that. But the CFO has more and more on their plate more than ever. It's the technology side too. Hey, how do we implement what's out there? I think I'll talk to a lot of folks in different industries, whether they're prospects or advisors. And everyone's trying to figure out what is ultimately going to help that business. What are one, two or three things that can be practically put in place at a cost that makes sense to that business that's going to help. And I think we're all, you know, we're all figuring that out. Testing different things, whether it's the use of different, you know, LLMs or different things like that and how can it help? But the pressure on the CFO plate is just more and more especially if you're one individual, you know, trying to figure that out. How do you figure that out? You need your advisors to help you out. You need maybe your, your outside firms to help you out. We benefit from working with, you know, 80, 85 companies at a time. And you see things going on in one industry and maybe it's happening at eight of the 10 companies. Well, why aren't we implementing that at the other to help them become more efficient. So that power of not only having a large client base, but the power of having a team that not only has the experience historically, but also the experience kind of looking at multiple things I think helps us a lot in this kind of it's continually changing environment.
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Scott Becker
Thank you and take a moment. Sort of like this, this concept of a lower mid market, a mid market company increasingly either founder owned or they've got a private equity sponsor. Now sometimes the CFOs that are hired by those companies, sometimes it is a first time full cfo. Sometimes that full CFO comes from a big company and wants to build out a big FP and a team, forecast, planning and analysis team or other types of teams. And many founders or CEOs of these growth businesses sort of blanch it building a big cost center there. Talk about how you think about some of those things when you're dealing with companies that, that are looking at an interim or even a permanent outsourced CFO in how they staff up and staff down. Because I tell you, as a, as an entrepreneur, as a founder in different businesses, in a board member, I always get scared when the CFO talks about how big a team they need to build. How do you think about some of those things?
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Scott Moran
Yes, Scott, it's often a cost center, right? Everybody we look at it that way, we think about the same way from our perspective, how do we be efficient and how do we deliver the value to the that they need? So what happens? A lot of the middle market companies or even lower middle market, some of those roles get blended. And so maybe the company will have a VP of finance or whatever title you want to call it and that could be a blended CFO and controller role. So you have one individual operating in that role that maybe leans more of a skill set one way or another. Maybe they're more of a controller, maybe they're more of a cfo, they're more of a controller. They're not going to provide necessarily the higher level strategic thinking, forward looking. The opposite could be true too, which you mentioned, you know, coming down market, the big cfo, maybe a big company and comes down to a middle market company and has expectations of, well, I should have be an FNA team, I should have this team, I should have that team. I need everybody operating well that may not be cost effective for the business. I understand all those skill sets may be necessary, but they're not necessary at a full time basis. So we got to be optimal. You know, we talk about being optimal in that arrangement. That's where we come in. That's where we can really make a huge impact. You know, I love when we talk to a company and there's an opportunity to help them out and maybe the person that left was that CFO slash controller. Because we can come in, we bring a team approach and we'll put two individuals on it. You know, one of those individuals is a cfo, one of them is a controller. They're not both full time positions and they're two different skill sets and two different price points so we can match the need of the company. So how much of the controller need is there? Well, we need to have these tests done every month. We need timely and accurate financials. And then how much CFO do we need? Well, we need a cfo, but we need them doing the forecasting. We need the forward looking position. So instead of adding, you know, five different W2 positions, which all would probably likely be not Full time. You know, we can leverage our team in that way, which is what allows us to deliver that value and to deliver that different sets of skill to the company at a price that makes sense. And over time, as a company grows, we see this happen, happen a lot. That company going from 50 million to 100 million to 200 million and up over that journey, they may need a really strong controller with a part of a CFO from our team. But then when they get to that next hurdle and they're thinking about do we raise more capital, do we expand, do we maybe grow organically or we're going to grow through some acquisitions, those are skill sets that, you know, often the CFO has or, or is needed in that situation. That's where we flex up our involvement. So you're almost thinking about it. You're paying for it as you need it or paying for it when you need it. A lot of the consistency volume can go up. The accounting department may need more clerical help, but the skill set at that CFO level, so we see it so often blended into one position and we break it apart. And the same point that you make, you know, somebody coming down market to run that position, you know, from our perspective, you can't hire a bunch of half people or quarter people. So we always bring a team. And every engagement we're involved in, even if we're just going to be the CFO of the company, we'll have our team, we'll have three people on our side involved, the cfo, a controller, which are managing directors and directors for us and staff. Because if the team internally at the company can't handle maybe increased volume, we have the ability to bring in additional resource from our team that already know the deal or know the company or know the situation. So I think that flexibility, and that's just the DNA of our entrepreneurial nature too, Scott. And the firm is how do we meet the need of that business and then provide it at a cost that makes sense. And that's how we're able to provide that higher level value or higher level acumen at less cost.
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Scott Becker
And talk for a second on that, because both your leadership, yourself, Howard, both are great on numbers, but also great on process, but also entrepreneurs too. Entrepreneurs and operators. So talk for a second about. We work with so many different CFOs and some of them are very much fantastic. I make sure the trains run on time in terms of the numbers, the closing of the books, everything else. And then at least over the course of my career, a smaller percentage are Much more strategic and potentially positioning to be a CEO or something of that sort of. But, but it really, in my experience has been 60, 70%. And maybe they wouldn't say this. I think it was great at getting the books closed, really. You know, a whole different level of controller and so forth. And a smaller percentage are really deep strategic thinkers. Really, you know, and obviously at a Fortune 500, they better be both. But talk about that breakdown in CFOs and what you see out there. And I know you'll be careful in your comments because you know, you're, you're working so closely with so many companies with CFOs and providing services to them, but what's that balance of CFOs that are out there? And maybe a better question is what makes a great CFO versus someone who is a great closer? The books and so forth.
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Scott Moran
Yeah, I'll tell you kind of how we look at internally. I, I think what makes a great CFO sometimes is, you know, it's funny, I think Sometimes it's a 20 minute conversation with the leadership team on a perspective or decision that needs to be made. But you know, we think about it, it starts with the foundation. So you talk about more of that bookkeeping controller level. You have to have a good foundation and have a good team and have the timely and accurate financials, more the blocking and tackling, that should be a must. That should just be something that, that isn't in question. So we get involved in a company, we gotta make sure our processes are clean and we gotta make sure that we have timely night. Because if that's in place, then it allows us the time and the opportunity to be thinking about, well, what do those numbers mean? You know, oftentimes I think numbers just get regurgitated. Here's what happened last month, here's what we think could happen next month, next meeting. But it's thinking about the why, it's thinking about where is this business going. And so as we look at that internally, having the right process and the right foundation is super important. And then the growth and development of our team, that's, that's one of the best things we're able to leverage to the client. But it's also something we leverage internally. When somebody joins us at the director level, which is our controllers, typically their goal is to be a cfo. They want the training and development to be a cfo. And we recognize that. And so we're able to leverage a team of managing directors that, you know, some of our managing directors and CFOs have owned their own businesses. So they've had the CEO hat on, they've had the CFO hat on. They've been in those different positions and have 20, 30, 40 years of experience. Well, as an individual, if you get access to 5, 6, 7 of those individuals as you're working on different engagements, the growth and development, both through the sucker moran process and protocol that we have in place to just learn what should be done and how it should be done and then the perspective of that cfo. And you know, and again, we're, we're a benefit of a team here. That's how our team develops and grows. So internally, you know, we see that too, but we walk into companies all the time that say, you know, we just lost our cfo, maybe they terminated them, maybe they quit, can you take over? And we walk in and we said, well, primarily what was being done here is controller level work. And that's not to say anything or offend the person on the way out. But we're just reporting numbers, we're doing the blocking, ticking. I, we haven't put together even a budget, you know, ever. So that shift in mindset. But look, I look at it kind of more selfishly, probably from our team and that's a big piece of why I think people are attracted to join the team is the growth and development and access to a great team with great process. But we also don't have, you know, 30 people doing it 30 different ways. So that consistency and process approach is so important to us that we are operating, we're all swimming in the same direction. But everybody has different experiences, everybody's been through maybe different circumstances. So if we have a situation on a client and the individuals on the engagement team, hey, we've never been through this before. You know, usually it comes to me or Howard and then either one of us gets involved or we pull in someone from the team, you know, so and so has a ton of experience dealing with this. Let's bring them in and then they can help out. So yes, I think the marketplace, you know, the CFO and controller, I think sometimes the marketplace can't define the difference. You know, I find we educate prospects that on a lot on that, a lot. There's, they'll say, well, what is the difference? I've never had a CFO tell me what, what that means, what should, what should my business have that I don't have right now? Or they've had one of those two positions, maybe not operating at the capacity it should. And then the Other situation we walk into is the company that has had a great CFO or an individual that maybe has run multiple businesses, and they know that, okay, my CFO is not operating as a cfo.
- [25:14]
Scott Becker
I just, right then they really know what they're looking for, what they really want, because they've seen it and they've had it. Talk a little bit about as you get into the second half of this year, Scott, what are you most focused on and excited about? Where are you most focused and excited this year, Scott?
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Scott Moran
We're really excited about the team that we have right now. We talked a little bit early on here in terms of the marketplace and the continued shift. Howard and myself and our team have spent a lot of time and will continue to spend time to make sure people know who we are and know that we exist. And as people are more and more open and I would say even curious about, hey, what is, what is this? What is this outsourced cfo? How can I be thinking about this different? I just feel like we are very well positioned in a time where there's continuing to be a lot of change in supply demand issues at the CFO controller level. And so I'm just really excited about both the team that I have assembled. We've had some really good candidates coming on in the last 12 months that have not only came out of the gate strong, but have added so much value to the firm. And so as we continue to grow and as we continue to add good talent, I'm just excited about the team. We have the foundation and the processes that we've built to continue to give that value to companies. I love, you know, working. We work with so many entrepreneurs and different owners and they all have story and they all have a journey that got them there. And it's just such a fun place to be a part of and you can add so much value. But also, you know, we're learning at the same time too, from what maybe what they've experienced. So really excited about the second half, excited about the marketplace and our position in it.
- [26:47]
Scott Becker
So is there a spot for a company? And again, my background is as a lawyer by background. We serve as outside general counsel. Different companies. Is there a size company where it sort of makes sense to build their own and completely internal team, or is there always a spot for an outsourced CFO and CFO team? How do you look at some of that? Are there or is that just all continuum?
- [27:12]
Scott Moran
It's a really good question. I would say, Scott. We more than half our clients, I Kind of mentioned are in that lower middle market space. And if you would ask me this question five to six years ago, I, I think my answer would have been different because as we've seen the marketplace change, I believe there's a spot in every size organization. And the question is, is that spot or our ability to help a long term solution or maybe an interim solution. And so I say that as we've watched the marketplace change, that permanent position where we take over the CFO controller seat, oftentimes always the cfo, but a lot of times both the lower middle market, that's sub 200 million in revenue, there is, there's appears always a spot, whether we're just the CFO or we're both positions as we start to go up market north of that revenue size and we're working with about 10 companies that are north of 200 million, which has changed over time. But the reason it's, it's happening is number one, what we've seen is kind of one of two things. Number one is that company loses, the individual loses, the CFO loses the controller. And maybe they're a $300 million business now, but they were 55 years ago. And so the acceleration of growth usually means there's a lot of projects and a lot of work to get done. And even if they go out and hire another W2 employee and that's a great CFO, that person's gonna have 10 projects to catch up on. And it may take two years, it may take three years. We can put an accelerant behind that, we can put our team behind it and say, hey, instead of taking that much time to get all these projects done, let's try to get as much done as we can in the next six to eight months and accelerate that to maybe some things that fell through the clacks when we went from 50 to the size that we're at now. So there's some interim solutions there that we've seen help companies push the accelerator button and ultimately they may hire a W2 or ultimately we may be a long term solution. The second one is we've seen companies grow to a large scale where they're not trying to grow maybe to that 5 or 600 million. They're at a space where they're, where they're content with, with where they're at, modest growth and they've really built out a sophisticated operation. And the CFO either retires or leaves and they're like, you know what, I don't know if we need it at the same cost that we needed to get here. But we have to have that skill set in our business. And so maybe the skill set or requirement isn't, you know, 40, 50 hours a week plus like it was before, but it also can't be zero. And it needs to be somebody that has the chops. It has been around. And so as we kind of talk about, you know, the size makes sense. I think we do really, really well and add a ton of value in the middle market to lower middle market. But these larger scale companies have the same needs. And as the supply and demand issue continues to be highlighted with people leaving the industry and not as many kind of rising up the time it takes to find the best replacement. You know, instead of being two months, it could be six months, it could be a year. We can't go that long without having somebody at the leadership seat. So we step in, keep the trade on the tracks, improve things as we are going. And that's, that's another place where I think size doesn't or you know, revenue size doesn't matter. It's what's complexity here, what needs to be addressed and we can flex our team for that as well.
- [30:27]
Scott Becker
Well, and, and your point is so well taken. It is so hard to find the right person at the right time if you're trying to hire a full time cfo, you know, in, in in house and when that person leaves, if you haven't built a deep team or have great outsourced resources to work with as well, you could really be in a horrendous spot. I mean it's really fascinating what how that's evolved in the marketplace and what you see in, in the huge role that you folks built. Scott, I want to congratulate you on, on the incredible growth of, of Sutka Moran and what you folks have done and the service you provide. It's really been magnificent to have a, an a spot to watch the growth and the success of the firm and hitting this product market market fit so perfectly with such great leadership. I want to thank you for taking the time to visit with us today, Scott. Just fantastic. Thank you very, very much, Scott.
- [31:13]
Scott Moran
Thanks for having me on and thanks for letting me share. Appreciate it.
- [31:22]
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- [31:45]
Scott Moran
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