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Leadership, Client Trust, and the Future of Legal Practice with Bart Walker & Kevin McGinnis of McGuireWoods LLP 3-16-26
00:36:17
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- [00:01]
A
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B
This is Scott Becker with the Becker Private Equity and Business Podcast. We're thrilled today to be joined by two brilliant leaders from McGuire Woods. We've got with us today two partners, longtime partners and leaders at the firm, Bart Walker and Kevin McGinnis. We're going to talk to them today about leadership, the practice of law, and a lot more. Bart, Kevin, let me ask you to take a moment to introduce yourself. Let me start with Kevin McGinnis. Kevin, can you take a moment to tell us about your career, what you do, your leadership, and then, Bart, I'll ask you to do the same.
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C
Sure thing. Thank you, Scott, for having me and Bart on today? My name is Kevin McInnis. I'm a partner in debt finance and the chair of our debt finance department at McGuire woods in Charlotte, North Carolina. I grew up in Chicago. I'm actually taking this podcast from our Chicago office today. I went to high school here, Duke University for undergrad and Notre Dame for law school, and started off my career at Jones Day in Chicago, which is in the same building here as McGuire Woods. And one of the benefits of Jones Day was it allowed its new associates to rotate through different departments for up to a year and a half before deciding on a specialty and a career path. And I happened to fall into the transactional department and specifically debt finance, and really enjoyed it and really enjoyed the team and the philosophy of what our leaders kind of instilled in us and the collaborative process, working with banks and clients to get a deal done on the transactional side and specifically on the finance side, there's really two aspects. You can represent borrowers or corporations looking to borrow money, or you can represent banks or the lenders that are constantly lending money out to borrowers. And I really enjoyed the lender side. And due to my undergraduate career and some work that I had done in North Carolina, I was really anxious to return to North Carolina. And Charlotte happens to be one of our biggest and best banking centers in the U.S. and so I ended up at McGuire woods in Charlotte in 2003, where I've been practicing since so A little bit about our practice. The debt finance department at McGuire woods has about 90 lawyers. We are stretched across from the west coast all the way to the east coast and into London. We have offices and teams in essentially every major city or every banking center. And we do a. Just a wide swath of different types of lending. And me personally, I work with investment grade companies and sports financing and stadium construction. I've been our department chair since 2021. And what I have found that that leadership role entails is really working across a wide array of different types of lawyers, of different types of specialties and niches, and really kind of settling into what different geographies or different types of regional versus national banks prefer as their kind of strategy for either expansion or growth. And it is constantly a learning experience. But with people like yourself, Scott and Bart, and our wonderful management team at McGuire woods, they certainly make it easy and enjoyable.
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B
Thank you very, very much. I'll talk to you for one second about the stadium side. And you and I are both Chicago fans or sports fans from way back.
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A
Yes.
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B
You went to Fenwick, one of the great schools in the nation here.
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C
The great, the great.
- [04:15]
B
The great school. Yes. And then, then, then Duke in Notre Dame. Fabulous. Will the Chicago Bears relocate their stadium out of the state of Illinois? Would you give us any betting odds on that? Or are you involved in that? So you can't, you can't even talk about it?
- [04:30]
C
I'm not involved in it. So I, I think that at the end of the day, the Bears will stay in Illinois. I think that that is where they want to be and I think that us fans want them to stay here. I think it is a unique, strategic way to leverage what the state of Indiana is offering them. But I do think that they will ultimately end up in, in Arlington Park. And I will say one thing, A confusing aspect of just the Bears and trying to move or get the better stadium is if they move. There's a lot of people in Chicago, and I had this discussion last night with my mom, bless her heart, who thought that they would have to rename themselves the Indiana Bears, which is not true. It's a territory that can go about 100 or 120 miles in a big circle, just like The San Francisco 49ers play about an hour and a half south in Santa Clara. The New York Giants play in New Jersey. They will still be, and they will always be the Chicago Bears. We just hope that they are actually in our states.
- [05:39]
B
No, Kevin, thank you. I think that's exactly right. I Think your mother is actually a brilliant person. I actually know her. A fantastic leader and nurse leader, one of the best in the business. And I think you are right on this though. And so we can't allow your mom to hear this because she won't like me agreeing with you and not her even though she is actually brilliant and a great nurse leader. Bart, take a moment and introduce yourself and tell us a bit about your practice.
- [06:07]
A
Sure. Thanks Scott. Always good to chat with you. I'm a McGuire with Lifer, so I've been here for 21 years practicing in the healthcare department. I'm currently one of the co chairs of our healthcare and life sciences industry team which is our cross departmental approach to the market to build strategic relationships across the healthcare and life sciences industries. I do primarily healthcare M and A. I started off my career doing surgery center deals all day every day with Scott. That's evolved over the years to also include things like physician practice management, a lot of private equity backed healthcare services transactions with some dabbling in pharma services and life sciences deals as well. And then also just advising on the sell side of deals and founder owned companies on health care regulatory matters. Again, I've been here my whole career so I have great respect for the firm and great respect for Scott. Have learned almost everything I know from him and happy to be here.
- [07:07]
B
Well, thank you so much. I know you've learned a great deal from Kevin as well and let's go down that route too. Take a second. Bart, let me start with you on this. In terms of leadership, both you and Kevin have grown these outstanding careers at McGuire Woods. Just fantastic. Literally you head up really Healthcare and Charlotte Healthcare and have built this great practice. Kevin heads up the entire debt finance practice department which is one of the largest and most important departments in the firm, if not the largest. Talk a little bit about leadership traits. What leadership traits separate truly great partners and practice leaders from very good ones? And how do you sort of look at that? What makes a great practice? Leader versus a very good one? A good leader. A great leader versus a good one. How do you look at what really makes a difference? I know we're gifted right now with magnificent leadership at the firm between John Harmon and Tracy Walker. What is it that makes a great leader? Leadership traits. What do you look at?
- [08:13]
A
So I think anybody can be a good manager. I think there's a distinction here between manager and leader. If you've heard this before, it's a very different thing to be a leader. And then once you're a leader Being a very good leader to a great leader, there's another step up. In my experience, I think the big difference is emotional intelligence. And you know, it's a soft skill, but I think it's very, very important. I think the ability to read the room, to read people, to understand what they're going through, to have some empathy of their situation and to meet people where they are and then inspire them or motivate them to get you get to where they need to be for the betterment of the team. I think that's the big difference. I think if just blocking and tackling and being disciplined about your approach to client service or business development or what have you, I anybody can kind of be formulaic in that regard. But to take it to the next level, you really have to have some intangible skills around that. And you know, it's been said a lot of times the mark of a great leader is they make everybody around them better. So that's one of the indicia I think of kind of bringing more out of people in a way that they may not, you know, they may not demand things of themselves. But if you're demanding of them and can inspire them to greatness, we talk about a lot around here. In my experience, that's the big difference.
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B
Thank you very, very much. And Kevin, let me ask you to add on to that. Bart talks about emotional intelligence, the ability to meet people where they are and then motivate them and get the best out of them. Talk about your thoughts on that. What do you see as separating great leaders from very good leaders?
- [09:53]
C
Well, I have found that to think about just more of a real life aspect that comes into leadership is when somebody is going through something. It's a very popular belief that the question that you should ask is do you need support or do you need solutions? And I think the assumption as a leader, especially stepping into a leadership role, is that people need solutions. But as Bart mentioned with the emotional intelligence aspect, I do find that more often than not people just need support. They want you to support what it is that they are trying to accomplish, to provide whatever resources you can to get them there, but also to just listen, even if it's for five or ten minutes or so. I think that is one of the more key aspects of being a leader. I also think that visibility has been very key with my role and in growing into my role and trying to pattern my behaviors after great leaders that I've had. Just seeing your leader on a day to day basis or on a frequent basis getting Phone calls, getting emails. That can be as simple as, hey, I heard you close that deal. Congratulations. What a great accomplishment. Being somebody that is ever present and communicating seems to be a way that people kind of buy into that team mentality where they don't feel isolated or separated, but feel part of something bigger and something greater.
- [11:35]
B
How important is that, that concept of people being noticed when they do something right, Sort of, you know, they close this deal, they did this, they do that. Well, how important is that management style of celebrating and gratitude and really showing appreciation?
- [11:51]
C
I think it's very important. I think that in a department of 90 lawyers, in a firm of a thousand lawyers, every day, we are doing great things. And it can get lost in the shuffle of what you think that you are adding to the firm. Even if it's something small, you can feel that you're not really a tremendous part of our firm's success. I think especially with our younger lawyers, they feel so proud of themselves when they are recognized for doing something, something unique or something special. And I do think it helps them ask those questions of their colleagues as well. Hey, what have you been working on? What have you closed recently? What other success stories do you have? So I think again, even if it's something very small, a 5 second voicemail, a mention of it at a department meeting or something, I feel that that incentivizes and kind of motivates folks to work even harder to achieve their own goals. So I do think that's very important
- [12:59]
B
and I love that. And I love Art Walker's distinction between a leader and a manager. I think that is right on. Take a second. Kevin, let me lead off with you here. How is the practice of law changing? How is artificial intelligence impacting it? What are some of the shifts you see in the practice of law currently? You know, maybe over the next five to ten years?
- [13:22]
C
Yeah, well, when I was a young associate, my practice and how I learned was printing out documents that had comments attached to them, walking into my department leader's office and sitting with him, sometimes for hours on end, going over each of the comments, understanding where the, the provisions were intending to go, what our client was looking to do, and really having that one on one time with, with my mentor, with my supervisor. So now I think this is really in every industry. We're all, we're spread out so much. We have the ability to work remotely. It can be very difficult to be trained or to learn on the job. And it could also be difficult for somebody like myself to figure out how the best way is to communicate with a younger attorney that may not physically be in the office, that we have to do these by calls or zoom or emails or whatnot. So I do think the way that we have changed is this is a industry that is moving quickly away from face to face conversations and communications and into a faster realm where we're able to, to do things with AI at a much quicker pace. Now, from the AI perspective, it has not permeated my department as much. We are being trained with it right now and we are understanding the ways that it can be useful. But we are also mindful of our young associates, our first year and our second year associates who feel that they may be lessons or their role may be lessened because of AI and technology and finding ways to appropriately incorporate them into our day to day practices. But I would say that the main difference is shifting from being in the office face to face, seeing people on a daily basis, to working remotely and figuring out the best way to kind of see eye to eye and the best way to train and be trained when you're not with somebody, when you're not picking up on their facial expressions, their body language, et cetera.
- [15:29]
B
Talk about that for a second. Because so much of management and training over the years was sort of what people used to call management by walking around or management by talking to people. And now to get that same training and that same ability to develop relationships, you have to be much more intentional, don't you? Because it used to just happen. You go into your department chair's office, as you said. Now your department's spread across the country and quite frankly, I think in other countries too. How do you, how do you sort of intentionally try to develop that teaching and learning when you're spread out so much?
- [16:02]
C
Yeah, it can be difficult. What we try to do is identify some of our more senior associates and partners that do come into the office often and crave that mentorship, the ability to teach others. And so we asked a lot of them to take on that burden. In a purely non legal aspect, you have to think of creative ways to bring people into the office, which again has nothing to do with the law. But if you give away free popcorn on Thursday, will that be an incentive to come in? If you schedule a happy hour, is that something that people will come in for? So you're looking for ways that will make somebody want to have that face to face interaction. And that's, I think part of the fun of being a leader is thinking of those creative ways. And you have to rely on Sometimes non lawyers. My, my secretary, she's great at, at coming up with ideas. My practice manager is great with coming up with ideas. But you have to find something that works and then you have to stick with that and repeat and repeat and repeat until it becomes a habit for people to be coming in and doing that face to face interaction. I will say also the way that offices are going nowadays. By going, I mean the construction or the refurbishing of offices. Gone are the days where you had, you know, walls where you could not see in or out in an office. And now we're moving to, you know, glass walls or shaded glass to even make it feel like it is more open and you can see in and out and who is around. So it is a constant, I think, creative exercise to figure out the best way to do it. But once you do find that best way for your group, like I said, you just have to repeat and repeat and repeat until it becomes a habit.
- [17:59]
B
And Bart, let me ask you to pick up on the same theme. How is the practice law of changing? What shifts are you seeing and where are you starting to see artificial intelligence?
- [18:10]
A
Yeah, I'll take the artificial intelligence piece first. I'd say right now if I had to make an assessment, just generally speaking, the tools we have are about as good as a summer associate, maybe a first year associate. The difference is if I hand a purchase agreement to a first year associate and say, hey, can you do an issues list or do a summary of the changes in this document? They'll take a few days, maybe one day. AI can do it in about 15 minutes, five minutes. If that's so, it's compressing the cycle time on a lot of these turns and a lot of the process items that we have. I still would not trade that for an associate. I think there's something about having a living, breathing person who thinks critically and that you can communicate with, that you just can't replicate with AI. I do think it'll be a tool to leverage our time more efficiently. And I do think we as law firms will need fewer junior associates in the future. But that also raises the question, well, how do you train those people? Like Kevin said, you've got to find ways to retain that connectivity, whether it's in person, whether it's virtual, whether it's formal training, whether it's informal training. You have to recreate that and capture that in some way.
- [19:21]
B
Let me ask you this question Kevin mentioned. When we were younger lawyers, all three of us, quite frankly, used to redlining by hand, literally Track the changes from a document, document by hand. And that was rigorous. Rigorous and obviously not efficient. Inexpensive. And you know, and obviously that's been replaced. The red light has been replaced by machines over the years, which is redlining for those not lawyers. Is comparing a document to document to see the changes in it. And as Kevin said, used to sit down with your department chair or somebody you work with on a project, really go through things line by line. Now what happens is now if you use an artificial intelligence tool to go through the changes and to summarize the changes, I guess on one hand you get to the quick of the matter much quicker and you really understand, okay, here's the seven issues we got to really focus on. So that's a fantastic evolution. And the flip side is you lose so much of this training where people had to do rigorous discipline and work through things. And so the question I guess becomes was, will lawyers, they'll be more efficient, Will they be as rigorous thinkers as we start to adapt AI? And what's that balance of using artificial intelligence and rigorous thinking to give great advice and great guidance as a lawyer? Bart, any thoughts on that evolution?
- [20:39]
A
Yeah, there's at least one study out there that's pretty scary that shows an inverse correlation between the amount you use AI versus the ability to think critically. And I think we're just going to have to be more intentional about forcing that issue in the future. I still sit down with associates with red lines. I still will mark up things by hand and depending on the nature of it, it's not the right solution for all situations. But if there's a concept I'm trying to teach or there's a concept I'm trying to get them to understand that you really can't explain any other way than look right here in this provision, this is what it should say and this is how this is supposed to work. Very hands on kind of things. I think there's still a place for that for sure. I think the other piece too, that isn't to be undersold. Kevin talked about incentivizing people to come into the office or come into a face to face environment. The other piece is more of a stick. Like if you don't do that as a junior, I think you have a tendency to fall behind. And for better or worse, it puts some of the onus on the junior associates and the junior lawyers who are trying to learn, like the ones that take the initiative and really kind of go out of their way to try to learn and ask for feedback and ask for that training, I think, are the ones that are going to get ahead. I think the ones that are more passive and kind of wait for people to come and tap them on the shoulder, they're going to be at a disadvantage, unfortunately. So we do try to encourage our people, like look over, communicate, you know, if I'm not there in the office, call me, email me, text me, anytime. And that kind of availability, I think gives me comfort. But I think it's, you know, it's going to have to be much more intentional going forward. You can't just sub in AI and then forget about all these intermediate steps that we used to do.
- [22:14]
B
No, I think that's exactly right. And let me ask you this question. I'll start here with you, Bart. When you're working with clients that are really effective, that are really good at what they do, what are some of the leadership traits you see with clients that are really good at what they do? And then, Kevin, I'll ask you the same question, sort of what do you see in clients where they're just exhibiting great leadership? They're great at what they do. Anything that stands out to you that they're doing, that you think about.
- [22:42]
A
I'll give you three things. Humility, listening, and judgment. I think the best leaders that I've encountered are the ones that listen particularly to their advisors, particularly to their lawyers, accountants, investment bankers, whoever it is, whoever's advising them. They rely on these people. They trust their judgment. They understand that they've had years of training and that they've been deep down into these weeds of these thorny issues, and they trust what they're telling them. They also press them on their conclusions. They listen and then they respond by teasing out nuances, by asking insightful questions. And then they have the humility to understand that they don't know everything. The places we see people get in trouble is where they're very cavalier about things or assume they understand an issue when they really don't. And seeing in that level of nuance, I think is really important, especially on a lot of the healthcare regulatory issues we deal with.
- [23:38]
B
And Kevin, let me add you to that discussion. When you see clients that are really effective, whether it's a banker or somebody doing business with a banker, what are they really good at? What do you admire?
- [23:50]
C
I definitely think that their decision making is very quick and very effective and very assertive. They're able to listen to what the issue is and make a very quick decision or are quick to offer a solution in a way that makes it feel like, it was more collaborative, like somebody else thought of the idea first before this person did. So that. That, to me, seems to always be very effective. The other aspect, which it's. You know, it's almost shocking that this is something that. That anybody would have to point out, but it is something that you rarely see, but it's very effective. You know, there's two deals that I'm thinking of where we were working with owners or CEOs of professional sports teams, and the way that these people think, communicated with everybody, from the lead banker to the paralegal on the deals and remembered people's names and what they were working on and after the deal, to take the time to express what it was about this deal and why it was so important, leaves a very lasting effect, I would say, over the last 15 or 20 years, the deal. If you ask any of the associates that were on this deal, the deal, that they will tell you that their most favorite was working with the Miller family, who were the former owners of the Utah Jazz, and sold the remaining majority share in December. A few years ago, after the deal closed, the wife, the widow of the owner of the team, had a call and for 30 minutes went through how her family got to own the team, what joy it brought their family, the memories that she had growing up with the team, the memories she has with her grandchildren attending these games, and how happy it made her that this. This team was going to somebody that they and the city of Salt Lake City and the state of Utah embraced, and why that was just so important for her. And everybody remembers at that moment, this wasn't about the money. This wasn't about the interest rate. This wasn't about the deal terms. This was about a family that lived out a dream and is now letting a new family live out the same dream. So that ability to just really connect on that personal level is something that to this day, I find very powerful and very effective.
- [26:23]
B
That's literally remarkable that, you know, to take the time to do so afterwards and thank the advisors, share with the advisors and so forth. That's so meaningful. And your point is so well taken. In all. All the years of doing what we do, that kind of thing happens so in often. And sometimes the dealers will have this formula closing dinner. It's very nice. But somebody actually taking the time to sit through and explain how important this was to their family, to their business, to what they did, and how thankful they are to the team for helping shepherd through this thing is really remarkable. That's remarkable.
- [26:54]
C
Yeah. Yeah. And what not to interrupt you, Scott, but. And what that did was, again, this was not our client. Our client was the bank. This was the adverse party that we were working against. After that call, everybody, whether you are on the team's council side or were adverse to them, would have done anything for this woman. It got to the point where everybody wanted to do whatever this woman, this leader asked for across the table, different sides. That, to me, was so powerful that she kind of became known as the. If you need anything, I will do it for you in a heartbeat. You just ask me and it will be done.
- [27:33]
B
That's remarkable. Kevin, let me start with this last question with you, and then, Bart, I'll go to you with the same question. When you look at the rest of 2026, I mean, obviously you're knee deep in running a massive department. Talk about what you're most focused on and excited about as we get through the rest of this year. And then Barto asks you the same question. Where are you most focused and excited as we work through the rest of 2026?
- [27:58]
C
Right. Well, first, I'd be remiss to say the thing I'm most excited about is the Fenwick vs. New Trier State championship women's hockey game. So let's, let's all root for Fenwick on that one. But looking ahead, it will be unique to see how we continue to work AI into our everyday practice and how we bring along associates and especially some of our partners that are not as technologically savvy as our. As our younger generation is. So that will be interesting. But in the banking world, we've been operating under a, you know, kind of a theory that since the 2021 explosion of credit and explosion of deals, that things have kind of tightened up a bit with regulations or uncertainties or the tariffs, etc. And so I think that in 2026, this is really the first year in a while that there is a buzz that is palpable among all of our partners, all of our associates, our banking clients, et cetera, about where we are going with the market and how the capital markets are going to be unfrozen. So that is something that will be interesting to see. And then specifically in the sports world, where we have a new sports industry team, and we were looking at the market and trying to figure out where our clients could use our help the most. We are fascinated with the television revenues and the contracts that are coming underway with nil, which is constantly a big factor amongst a lot of our clients. And then the expansion of our professional sports leagues and to see where that will take us, whether it is across the ocean or down into Mexico or up into Canada or even places beyond that. So we're excited to see the capital markets coming back and we're excited to see in this time, since the, since the 2021 year what our clients have specialized in or new areas or industries that they would like to start focusing their investments on.
- [30:10]
B
You know, fascinating and fascinating to see the work, the amount of work being done on the sports world and sports stadiums and so forth. Just absolutely fascinating. I will not take the bait on the Fenwick vs. Nutra question. I won't tee up the Duke vs. North Carolina stuff. We're trying to stay as serious and professional as humanly possible. Now people don't know this, but Kevin and I went to the seventh game with another colleague of ours, David Pivnick of the Cubs World Series in 2016 in Cleveland and sheer some of those sports memories. But I'm doing my best to stay on track and on a very professional track today. So I'm not taking the bait. Unc, Duke, Fenwick, Neutrier, any of those subjects. The closest we'll get is The Northwest Indiana vs. Arlington Heights battle for the Chicago Bears. Bart, take us forward. You went to unc. Do you think of Duke as a second tier school? No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. That's a joke. Bart, take us forward to what are you most focused on and excited about this year? And Kevin does belie the Duke sort of pedigree because he didn't grow up rich, he's not spoiled, he's about as good and hardworking a colleague as we have and yet he's a Duke grad. But tell us for a second, what are you most focused on and excited about this year?
- [31:26]
A
Yeah, just to pause on that for a minute. It really is remarkable. He's not even from New Jersey and as far as I can tell, he's a very kind and normal person. So we try to avoid that topic conversation. It does get a little sensitive sometimes, but we can't all be perfect. So looking ahead, I'm really excited about firm growth. I spend a lot of my time involved with lateral partner recruiting. And we've here at the firm, just going back over the 20 years I've been here, we've remained relatively constant in terms of headcount. We've been between 900 and 1,000 lawyers for the last 20 years. We have a great culture, we have a great platform. And during that time the firm has its financial performance has increased a hockey stick up and to the right. And I'm really excited to share that with more people. We have part of our strategic plan to really grow in a serious way by either, you know, onesie twosies, individual partner acquisitions, or, you know, folks joining us or small groups. We just opened a Seattle office last week, which is exciting. So that's one of the initiatives that really gives me energy. I think that's a tremendous thing. And I think we can do a lot of good in the industry and just the world because I think it's a great place. And then finally, of course, the January 25, 2027 is the national championship game where Notre Dame will win in Allegiant Stadium in Las Vegas, Nevada. So, you know, of course, I'm looking forward to that. If you want a 2027 prediction.
- [32:54]
B
No, that's fantastic. I know that Notre Dame was left out of the college football championship this year, much to the chagrin of Notre Dame fans, after they ran off 10 wins in a row after two early losses. And that was sort of devastating. It did feel unfair, quite frankly, that, that Notre Dame didn't make the the college football championships. Kevin, I'll give you one final chance at rebuttal because Bart and I unfairly took shots at Duke, figuring you wouldn't have the mic again and figuring that we were safe. But I will give you a moment for quick rebuttal. And again, I hope people take this with humor. These are two of the smartest colleagues that I've worked with for literally decades. Fantastic leadership. Barton Healthcare. Kevin. And debt finance. Just amazing leadership. Did you want to both you share the Notre Dame pedigree so we won't talk about Notre Dame? I am not a Notre Damer, but, but not a hater, a fan of Notre Dame and love Lou Holtz, who just passed away. Kevin, may he rest in peace. One of the great speakers of all time you speak about. You need a purpose in life and a partner. Just a fantastic speaker. Kevin, tell us for a second one of my favorite schools. Tell us for a second any rebuttal on Bart or my Duke commentary? Because you always contend that as much as people think of Duke as a place for really rich, spoiled kids, that it's really not that, even though it seems that way. Give us your two cents.
- [34:18]
C
I like how you described me as not growing up very rich. It was true. So look, I, if this were 10 or 15 or 20 years ago, I would get more riled up now. Now I just, I just, I laugh at it all, I used to say, and I this is how much of a, how, how upset and angered I would get when people would, would take jabs at Duke. I would study all the annual stats that came out and could say things like, well, New Jersey is not even one of the top five states represented. It's North Carolina, South Carolina, Texas, Florida, California, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, and then New Jersey or something along those lines. But I get it, I get it. I was just a kid from Illinois who was looking to go find some sunshine and that's how I ended up in North Carolina. Now maybe in an alternative universe I would have ended up in Champaign and Scott and I could have had some more interesting stories about my college time. But look, Duke is a great place. I love it. And I think people that take jabs at it, they just, they just don't know. Similar to what Lou Holt said about Notre Dame. To those that have never. To those that have experienced it, no words are necessary. To those that have never experienced it, no description will do it justice. So I'm happy to provide that fodder for the two of you, especially to joke and jab at me. But I think we can all agree, Scott, we're all very anti Michigan, so that's that what really is, you know, kind of draws us together. We do not cheat like Michigan does. Repeatedly.
- [35:57]
B
You know, it is interesting that, you know, to put a footnote on that, that Jim Harbaugh, the famous ethical coach at Michigan, is largely banned from the NCAA's football until I think till he's 76 or 77 years old. He's got another 10 to 12 years of his band from being in college football. So as lily white and as perfect and pristine as he seems, that's a long term ban from the, from the NCAA football. Kevin and Bart, I want to thank you for joining us today on the Becker Business and the Becker Private Equity podcast. What a great pleasure to deal with and get to visit with two of the most gifted partners I've ever had a chance to work with in my life and two of the best people I know. Thank you so much for joining us today.
- [36:44]
A
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