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Life Lessons and Safari Reflections with David Pivnick of McGuireWoods LLP 8-7-25
00:17:14
In this episode, David Pivnick shares stories and insights from a recent family trip to Africa, exploring the contrast between privilege and poverty, lessons from local communities, and the humbling perspective gained from time on safari.
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- [00:00]
Scott Becker
This is Scott Becker with the Becker Business podcast and the Becker Private Equity podcast. We have a very special episode today with a brilliant lawyer and thinker and all around commentator David Pivnick. David's a partner, McGuire Woods. He deals a lot with litigation, false claims litigation, in sort of high end white collar litigation. A very gifted litigator and very bright person. We're going to talk to him today about something a little bit different than what usually talk about. David is there is no one that I know with all his intellect and all his great qualities who is more in need of learning some life lessons. David recently took a family trip, I think with the in laws to the continent Africa. And so we're going to talk today about, well and again, as I said, no one more need of life lessons than David Pivnick, regardless of his brilliance. We're going to talk about whether that was a life changing experience and what life lessons may have come out of traveling to the other parts of the world, to Africa. David, do you mind telling us a little bit about the trip and what you learned and hopefully you had a wonderful time with the in laws and, and whether you did or not, you better say that you had a great time with them. David, tell us a bit about going to Africa.
- [01:33]
David Pivnick
Yeah, thanks Scott. That's a quite, quite a lead in there. I'll start by saying unbelievable trip, had a terrific time. Obviously love traveling with my wife, very much like my in laws. So happy to travel with them as well. I will say wonderful people who planned a wonderful trip and are very fun to be with but absolutely atrocious to walk through an airport with. Like they are the people that I would otherwise be making fun of when I'm traveling by myself. But I was with that group this time, which was frustrating and hopefully they're not listening to this particular podcast, but I think my facial expressions made that much clear to them. But the trip was awesome. We went to, started in Cape Town for a few days there. We went wine tasting, went to the top of Table Mountain, went to the Cape of Good Hope, saw the penguins, which was very cool. And then we headed from there up to Krueger national park where we went on safari for three days, which was, you know, a highlight of the trip or probably the highlight of the trip. We saw, you know, a group of lions which was, that was definitively the highlight of the trip and very cool, but saw just about every other animal. We anticipated to not be a leopard, but it is what it is, but that was incredible. And then we headed to Zimbabwe for a couple days, which was very cool. Also somewhat sobering just because of the economics there. But, you know, we went to Victoria Falls in an elephant sanctuary and visited a local village in a homestead there, which was truly incredible to see how people, you know, a whole world away seemingly are living. So overall, truly incredible trip. I would say once in a lifetime, but I hope to take my children, you know, Haley and I want to take our kids on safari at some point. Not, not in the near future. But, you know, maybe, maybe for a big milestone birthday down the road, we'd like to do that. But it was incredible. And in terms of lessons, I don't know that it was life changing from that perspective, but I think it was certainly very humbling and eye opening to see how people are living in different parts of the world. And obviously, or maybe not obviously to everyone listening, but, you know, there's significant amounts of poverty in both South Africa and Zimbabwe and the unemployment rates are truly staggering. I mean, you know, unemployment is obviously an issue in the United States, but relative to the numbers in South Africa and Zimbabwe, it's truly mind blowing. And so seeing, you know, the shanty towns on the side of the highway in South Africa and understanding how folks are living there in, in true poverty. And then in Zimbabwe, where it's similar, or visiting, you know, we visited a homestead in the Monde village in Zimbabwe, which, you know, our hosts there could not have been more gracious and kind and welcoming, but seeing a family of 21 living in pots that they've made out of clay that they're creating themselves from the dirt in the ground and they, they farm the field and don't have electricity or running water, but were kind and welcoming and happy. It was a truly eye opening experience and truly humbling in terms of how fortunate, you know, I am and how much sometimes I may take things in my life for granted, but should be very appreciative.
- [04:52]
Scott Becker
David, so many interesting pieces there. Talk about the parts with poverty and the unemployment rate. Give us a sense, what's that percentage number? What does that look like? You talked about a family, 21, living together in abject poverty. What are the attitudes like? What does that feel like when you see that? And we'll get back to some of the other highlights, like the pack of lions and not seeing a leopard and so forth. There are a lot of questions that people have. The in laws walking slowly through the airport. Obviously your parents walk much more quickly through the airport than the in laws do. We'll talk about that. We'll dig into that a little bit, but talk a little bit about the poverty and what that's, what that's like. And does it leave you with any thoughts?
- [05:37]
David Pivnick
Yeah. So I'm going to. I have to go back to the airport thing. I know that you're asking a serious question, but to be clear, I'm not picking on the speed with which they walk. It was more of the surprise and bewilderment at basic things like when the planes landed on our various flights, they seemed genuinely surprised each time that we had to gather our things and depart the plane. But I digress. So starting with Zimbabwe, look, I said that the most notable thing is sitting. Sitting and spending time with this family, asking questions, seeing their homes, their kitchen, how they literally are manufacturing, turning cow. Cow poop into cow manure into usable fuel and oil to run their stove. You know, I'd say the biggest takeaway is I don't think they feel that they're living in abject poverty. They're living with family, they're making the best of their situation, they take care of their land. And they seemed both children, men, women, adults alike, very happy. And obviously it could have been putting on a friendly face, but I didn't get that sense. I got the sense they had a true appreciation and enjoyment of their world. It's just a very different world, you.
- [06:56]
Scott Becker
Know, day to day than talk about that, but talk about that. There's a million studies on that that say we think as Western privileged people we've got this happiness standard. But there's a million studies that show that often people that are what we consider impoverished are just as happy. They're just living their life how they live it. They're not sitting there thinking, oh my God, I don't have a Jaguar. They're like, I don't care. It's not in my worldview. We're just living day to day. Talk about that sense of where your sense of happiness versus not happiness and so forth, or the contrast where you see in some parts of the world there's abject poverty and it leads to constant war because people don't know what to do with themselves. I mean, talk about what your. Some. Any reflections?
- [07:39]
David Pivnick
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a reminder that everything in life is a matter of perspective. And the stressors in my life are things that, you know, worrying about a big case or how a client's going to react to a piece of news, etc. Are not something that would be on their mind. But they could literally wake up and they were explaining one of the things that stresses them out and terrifies me is, you know, Zimbabwe is not all fenced off and they live right near a national park, so they will find elephants or other buffalo, et cetera, in their fields. And they're not allowed to kill animals in their fields, so they have to figure out how to scare them off while also not injuring them and protecting themselves. And that is a whole level of stress and again, terror that I couldn't fathom. But I think it really, again, was a matter of perspective. I think their closeness with extended family, their ability to have a routine and to have some level of control over their day to day lives is meaningful to them. And I appreciated that. I think the balance. And you know, I obviously, material possessions are not what's truly important to the world, but certainly, like, I take it for granted that every day I get in my car and drive somewhere I want to go. And needless to say, there are not cars parked here similar. I mean, you know, they, they shared one outhouse without running water, with a gallon jug of water on a stick, literally to pour, to wash their hands afterwards. And I don't say that in a disparaging way. I say that because factually, that's the situation. And that was 21 family members sharing the one out house. And you know, I, needless to say, we're not relying on an outhouse and I take a toilet and running water for granted.
- [09:27]
Scott Becker
Let me ask you a question about that, because you grew up, as many of our listeners might know that listen to us regularly, you grew up in Canada. But, but how much more when you look at Canada versus Zimbabwe versus the U.S. but the U.S. at one spot, in terms of Western sort of comforts, you put Zimbabwe on the other side of that in terms of Western comforts. And, and I don't mean this offensively about Canada, but don't you put Canada closer to Zimbabwe than the U.S.
- [10:02]
David Pivnick
Potentially, from a pop culture standpoint, there's, there's a brief delay, but I think in all other ways it's pretty darn similar. Like I, I think Haley would tell you, Canada's about five to 10 years behind. From a pop culture standpoint, I think that's probably exaggerating it. But in all other ways, Canada is very much similar to the US And I do think on your point, though, truly the more interesting disconnect is in, is in South Africa and Cape Town in particular, where we stayed near the wharf. And there's a variety of lovely hotels, an incredibly nice, I mean One of the nicest shopping malls I've ever been in. An outdoor shopping mall that was incredible. And there's a slew of very new and expensive high rise condos and office buildings with a Ferrari dealership in one and a Rolls Royce dealership in the other. And so you've got that on the water and then 10 miles from there, you're driving on the highway through shanty toed after shantytown of people who are living in abject poverty. And then 10 miles after that you're in wine country amongst a bunch of beautiful vineyards, making great wine just outside the city. So that to me was. Was really staggering. All in close proximity.
- [11:22]
Scott Becker
Let me ask you, is there more tension almost or potential tension when you've got that kind of income inequality in one close place than in an area where for lots of places around, people are very poor? Is that too hard to comment on, but you can almost see that driving more resentment?
- [11:43]
David Pivnick
Yeah, I think there certainly is tension. And obviously income inequality and poverty generally is a big problem in South Africa. And I think, I mean, we didn't spend time in Johannesburg, but obviously the crime rate there is far higher than Cape Town or other places we visited. But I do think here income inequality and being in close proximity to it, you know, raises concerns. But I think similarly in the United States, you know, where folks are in close proximity, like in Chicago, there are some tougher areas, obviously, and the folks who live there are obviously keenly aware of how close the Gold coast is. And that could lead to jealousy and resentment as well. So I think it's a similar situation that exists in different places. Just the level of how far apart the disconnect is, is probably broader in, in Cape Town and surrounding areas than, than in most places in the United States.
- [12:43]
Scott Becker
You know, literally fasting. And when you let me at the beautiful outdoor shopping mall and people that aren't from Chicago might not understand this reference. Does anybody think of that and call it there the Old Orchard of Cape Town?
- [12:58]
David Pivnick
It's possible Haley may have called it the Old Orchard of Cape Town. I don't know that anyone else would have got it. And it was directly on a bay, so it was surrounded by water and therefore not a direct parallel, but a, a very lovely mall all the same, that, you know, we, we certainly bought some souvenirs for our kids at. And had a meal or two there.
- [13:21]
Scott Becker
No, just literally fascinating. And I'll tell you the story of like, no matter what world you're in, people are probably status conscious. We had an ant that Grew up down the street from Skokie and we were literally five, six, seven miles west of Lake Michigan. This aunt would describe to anybody that would listen that we live in Skokie on the lake. And similarly to status in any community you're in, if you're in Zimbabwe, the status might be that you got something slightly more than the neighbor next to you here. Describing Skokie as being on the lake is really a big stretch because Skokie is five miles or seven miles from the lake. So it doesn't really feel very lake like. But status is an issue every place. And I guess it's, you know, only Hayley would call it the Cape Town outdoor mall is similar to the their old orchard, but, but God bless her. In terms of the leopard, the leopard not coming out to see you folks, that just happens. That's not on you. That's not a particular version. That's just the leopard, not you not seeing leopard, by and large.
- [14:21]
David Pivnick
Correct. One night we were very close to the other group we were with found it and when they radioed to us, you know, we didn't get there on time. The leopard had run away and that's what happened. The next day we filmed the lions and they weren't there and we radioed them and I was quietly hoping the lions would walk away before they got there for our revenge. But sadly the lions were very chill and waited for them. And then the next morning we could have gone out again, but the rest of my group was fairly tired and I didn't. And then the other group saw the leopard again and I kind of kicked myself for not getting up early, you know, five in the morning and going out with the other group because then I could have seen it. But if I'm being honest, lions are sort of at the top of my list. Elephants and zebras next. And so, you know, the one leopard would have been cool, but, you know, I, I, I don't think it really sullied my trip not seeing it.
- [15:11]
Scott Becker
But just the whipper leopard. Unlike the Pecs and Pivnics. Does the leopard not run in acts like the Pecs and Pivnics do or how does that work?
- [15:26]
David Pivnick
I, you know, I can't speak to leopards as a general construct, but this individual leopard was indeed an individual leopard. He was just shelling by his lonesome both days. So I don't know day to day how he might proceed. And actually it's, I mean, I know the question was half tongue in cheek, but it was one of the fascinating things on the the trip generally was seeing how different animals interact and travel so that, you know, we, we often saw a male rhinoceros by himself, whereas we saw a mother and a baby and we saw other animals where giraffe. Giraffes would be. The male might be by himself, but the females tended to be in groups. So it was interesting how different animals travel and function relative to their. Their contemporaries, their peers. I don't know what the right word is there.
- [16:17]
Scott Becker
No, but absolutely fascinating. Really. I mean, it really is. Anyways, David, what a fascinating trip. We could talk about so many other things. I mean, we.
- [16:24]
David Pivnick
But.
- [16:24]
Scott Becker
But this is just such a life trip, a trip of a lifetime. It's just fantastic. It's you. You literally have moved from. I mean, you've come a long way from Canada to Africa and you've really come a long way. No, in all seriousness, it's with you. What an amazing trip. I hope to do it someday myself. Just fantastic. Thank you for joining us on the Becker Business, the Becker Private Equity Podcast. Again, David Piv, the brightest person I know, talking to us about his trip to Africa and some of the life lessons and poverty and so many interesting things. David, congratulations on a great trip and thank you for sharing it with us on the Becker Business Podcast, the Becker Private Equity Podcast.
- [17:08]
David Pivnick
Thanks for having me, Scott. Appreciate it. Always good to catch up.