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Understanding Imposter Syndrome & How Leaders Can Overcome It with Erris Klapper 4-9-26
00:23:26
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- [00:00]
Grainger Announcer
If you work in university maintenance, Grainger considers you an MVP because your playbook ensures your arena is always ready for tip off. And Grainger is your trusted partner, offering the products you need all in one place, from H VAC and plumbing supplies to lighting and more. And all delivered with plenty of time left on the clock so your team always gets the win. Call 1-800-GRAINGER visit grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.
- [00:30]
Scott Becker
This is Scott Becker with the Becker Business in the Becker Private Equity Podcast. We're thrilled today to be joined by a brilliant leader who's an attorney, a writer, a professional coach and consultant. We're going to talk today with Arise Clapper, and Arise is going to talk to us about the imposter syndrome, about some of the thoughts that many of us face when we're doing something different or involved in something, why leaders are reluctant to admit some of their challenges, and a lot, lot more. Aries, let me ask you, you've done a ton of writing. Master's degree in industrial and organizational psychology. Brilliant lawyer, at least as I remember, in the healthcare sector, too. Prolific writer. You've had articles appear in Huffington Post, Cosmopolitan, Good Housekeeping, Women's Day, Yahoo. News, Country Living, Esquire, House Beautiful, and a lot more. Can you take a moment to introduce yourself and then we'll talk about the imposter syndrome and also how you ended up so focused and interested in this area and speaking about it nationally. Arise.
- [01:37]
Arise Clapper
Sure. First of all, thank you for that incredibly generous introduction and for inviting me. Scott, as you said, I started my career as a lawyer and then I transitioned into freelance writing. But I've always been fascinated by the psychology of work, what drives people, how they perform, what gets in the way, and basically how our lives spill into work and our work spills into our lives. And that curiosity led me back to school after many, many years of not being in the classroom. And as you said, I pursued a master's degree in industrial and organizational psychology and became a certified coach. And today I work with individuals sort of leveraging my multidisciplinary disciplinary background to support people to, in a practical and very sort of thoughtful way to be an accountability partner for them, to help my clients clarify their goals, stay on track, and actually follow through, which is pretty much the role of a coach.
- [02:40]
Scott Becker
And talk for a moment about the imposter syndrome. Talk about first, when you first went back to school, to graduate school, did you yourself feel like a little bit of an imposter at that point.
- [02:53]
Arise Clapper
So I think that I have felt like a bit of an imposter since around 11 years old, because English is not my first language. And my family moved from Israel to South Africa when I was in middle school, and I had to learn how to read, write, and speak in English. And whenever I was asked to read out loud in front of the class, I didn't measure up to my classmates. And so eventually I learned how to speak, as you can hopefully tell. And. But it stuck with me. I was told by the adults around me, fake it till you make it, it'll be okay. And so every time I did well, I told myself, well, you faked your way through that you earned an A because the teacher took pity on you. And I attributed all of my successes to external measures. And that really stuck with me. And so when I arrived in law school and we had much more difficult assignments than I did in middle school, or mock trial, as you know yourself, stressful situations where I didn't really know how to manage, and I knew what was happening to me, but I didn't have a name for it and I didn't really understand it. And when I went back to school, I knew that I would focus my entire master's on research and writing around this topic. And I am happy to say that I've mitigated it for myself mostly, and now I'm here to support others.
- [04:17]
Scott Becker
I mean, really, truly remarkable. And talk about. I've had a chance over the years to visit with different people about the imposter syndrome. And I think it resonates with so many of us. But. But can you do us a favor just, just to start us off, talk a little bit about how you define and think about the imposter syndrome? You know, what is the imposter syndrome? You know, and I know it's all over the board, and it's how familiar people are with this phrasing, what the imposter syndrome is. But. But tell us what it is.
- [04:48]
Arise Clapper
So basically, it is a cognitive bias against yourself, or where people doubt their own abilities to the point where they really do believe that they are faking it through whatever work situation they're in, and that they are going to be discovered as an imposter. So it's not just a question of humility. It truly is a cognitive bias, and it's debilitating.
- [05:18]
Scott Becker
And talk about how you see that play out with professionals, with leaders and so forth. I mean, so many of us end up in a room and we think sometimes, why are we here? How did I end up here, Do I belong here? Do I not belong here? And talk about how you deal with some of that as a professional, as a leader, as an aspiring leader.
- [05:39]
Arise Clapper
So I think that what happens is people who have it understand that there is something wrong and I think that it's very often attributed to generalized anxiety. I'm type A, I'm very anxious at work, I'm very driven, therefore I'm anxious. But there is an added component for people who suffer from imposter syndrome. It rises to the level of real burnout, real reduced personal growth, low self esteem despite knowing that you're cutting it. It's sort of a double edged sword, missed opportun. Because people don't really want to step up and accept special projects or leadership roles because they fear being discovered as a phony. And that results in lower job satisfaction and certainly in behavioral and physical health manifestations. So even though we see it in leaders, they for the most part suffer in silence. But as you can imagine that suffering is not so silent on their teammates who can tell that this is an incredibly anxious leader and nothing is being done about it.
- [07:00]
Scott Becker
What are some of the two questions or thoughts? Talk about some of the prevalent myths or unhelpful myths around the imposter syndrome. You might have just mentioned that a little bit when talking about generalized anxiety versus very specific. And then talk a little bit. Why leaders are reluctant to admit to the fact that they feel a little bit like an imposter. Even though most of us, you know, we don't want to tell everybody yet, but most of us in some speaking situations or some jobs we've been in feel like we don't look the part, we don't feel the part, you know, why are we here? But talk a little bit about why we just are reluctant to admit it, admit to it and some of the prevalent and maybe unhelpful myths around it.
- [07:44]
Arise Clapper
So I think that's an excellent question. People often mistake imposter syndrome for humility, for modesty or run of the mill perfectionism. And the reason I say run of the mill is that you can be a perfectionist and not have imposter syndrome, but it's hard to have imposter syndrome and not suffer from some degree of perfectionism. It becomes very debilitating. Another myth is that it's just jitters or beginners doubts. Well, some people when they're starting something out have doubts and frankly they should. And you should have a normal self assessment of sort of a constructive self assessment of where you stand what you need to learn, what you need to do, what you're good at, where you are, beginner's doubt, healthy, until it rises to a level that it never goes away. So imposter syndrome is not just simple jitters. It's not a personality flaw, it's not a weakness. It's not just a case of overthinking is truly a debilitating bias against yourself. You measure yourself in a way that you would never measure others. It's unrealistic. And it's not something that's just felt by inexperienced people. It's a disconnect between your abilities, the amazing reports that you're getting, amazing appraisals that you're getting and accolades and success, and how you feel internally about yourself. So it's just not commensurate with reality. And leaders are especially reluctant to admit it because simple denial, shame, there's stigma in any sort of mental health weakness. People fear repercussions because this happens at work. So work is the last place that we want to stand up and say, I'm suffering from something. Work is where we normally hide it. For some people there are cultural implications as well. And specifically for leaders, there's that whole concept of loneliness at the top. Who am I supposed to go to and actually share this with? So people don't admit it. They may know about it, they may understand it for themselves, not do anything about it, or not even know what it is that they're feeling, but just suffering tremendously in silence and talk about
- [10:23]
Scott Becker
some of the effects of that. And I mean, because many of us face this challenge of we get great reports, we've done well in this, we've done well at that. But for, because of how we grew up. You talked about immigrating from country to country, always feeling like, okay, this is my second language. So I was trying to pretend like I've got it all under control, but don't. Many of us grew up, whether in whatever household, whatever body type, whatever, wherever we came from, you know, and I speak about that myself, no matter how fit I get, I always feel like a little bit like, you know, chubby 13 year old boy, whatever it is that we're always sort of feel like in whatever room we're in, a little bit of an imposter. So how do you, how do you deal with that? How does it manifest itself to people and how do you sort of work through trying to mitigate the impacts of it?
- [11:17]
Arise Clapper
So imposter syndrome develops for many different reasons. I can give you some examples and this is definitely not an all inclusive list. But it could develop from cultural, environmental or childhood patterns which I think you just touched on. For example, somebody who is just naturally intelligent, the proverbial gifted kid, they've always done well. They zipped right through high school, they got into the college of their first choice and now they're in graduate school and it's not as easy as it was. Or they didn't get into their college of their choice. And then they say to themselves, wow, this is a moment where I realize that I've been faking it all along. And in fact they've been faking nothing. But it's something that hits them and then they start going down that road of thinking. It can also happen to a hard worker who feels like I have to work harder than anybody else all the time, therefore I'm an imposter and they're not me compared to my colleagues. And there are survivors, there's trauma based implications. People have different reasons for why it develops and then they handle it very, very differently. Rigid childhood roles that reinforce that self created Persona and then it carries through, but it can develop later on in life as well.
- [12:49]
Scott Becker
Thank you. And talk about what could somebody do about it rather than constantly facing it with, I'm in this position, do I belong in this position? How do you start to manage or how do you improve? Improve it or mitigate it?
- [13:06]
Arise Clapper
So I, I think a couple things. One of the ways to find out if you, if you suspect you have it is to take a very simple 20 question assessment that's readily available online. It's called the Clance Imposter Phenomenon Scale and, or cips. Anyone can google it and find it and assess for themselves where they fall. Do they have a few symptoms, moderate symptoms or severe symptoms? And that's a really good place to start. When I work with my clients, I give them a little cheat sheet. I call it the four R's. Recognize, reach out, reject this negative self talk. And then we reframe the narrative. So before I get into all the good advice that's out there, let me just take a quick step back and say that because, because of the myths that we spoke about a moment ago, there's also a lot of bad advice out there. And I come across it all the time. So I imagine people who are dealing with this come across it as well and it isn't helpful. So for example, people will say, you don't have imposter syndrome, just do it, just get over it. Well, it's hard to just do it when you're truly feeling this way. You're not feeling this way for attention. You're feeling this way because you truly believe that. And life is not a Nike commercial. We can't just do it. We need help. Telling somebody with imposter syndrome quit over preparing also not helpful because that over preparation is part of their compensation mechanism for trying to deal with it. Procrastination is also an ineffective method for trying to deal with it because we're talking about incredibly high achieving individuals. Whether they over prepare or procrastinate, they're going to reach their goal and they're going to do it well. It's just what they do to themselves internally. So telling someone like that to stop chasing perfection is also not really helpful because they don't know how telling someone to accept the uncertainty of outcomes, they don't want to accept the uncertainty of outcomes because all they're doing is trying to prevent a bad outcome and prevent what they believe is their house of cards from coming down and being discovered as a phony. So all of that is ineffective advice. Effective advice is to seek a coach where you can work on underlying identifying the underlying issue. So in coaching we try to find the root causes of it and then what the triggers are and eventually reframing the unrealistic narrative, that unrealistic and debilitating self talk with something healthier and more objective and more realistic and understanding why you have it, what triggers you and what you can do differently develops a real toolbox for people where their symptoms can be greatly, greatly moderated. And I don't talk about full recovery because I just don't know yet in my practice. Maybe we can talk about this in 10 years from now, but I don't know right now if somebody can completely be rid of these feelings. But we can definitely mitigate them to a point where you just live alongside of it. You have lots of tools and you don't need to suffer anymore. Mentorship is also incredibly effective, but it's effective when it's mentee driven because a well meaning mentor who dishes out advice to the mentee and tells the person solicited or unsolicited, here's what you should do with your career. You know, what to make you feel better. Here's what we're going to do. We're going to position you, we're going to do this and that, that's not helpful to a person who has incredible anxiety about the career. So as long as it's mentee driven and that person can sit and Listen to how the mentee is feeling and offer support that's incredibly helpful. And finally, organizational support from leaders. Educational programs that explain what this is, especially in prone populations, for example, healthcare field, where it's incredibly prevalent. But recognizing the root causes and the triggers and reframing the narrative is a little bit different for each individual. And that's why one on one is probably the best place to start.
- [17:38]
Scott Becker
Thank you. No, and I, and I. And I love that. And the work that you do is so valuable. Take a second on sort of what are you most focused on and excited about this year as you keep on working with people that are striving and struggling with imposter syndrome?
- [17:56]
Arise Clapper
So that is also a fantastic question. Up two years ago, Korn Ferry conducted a study and they found that 71% of CEOs and 65% of other leaders suffer from experience imposter syndrome. And when that sort of came on the scene, this phenomenon that we've been aware of since 1978 really became a little bit more mainstreamed. And that really helped with my work in the sense that people are just much more aware. So it's not just that the statistics are staggering. It's this component that highlights the disconnect between actual strong performance which leaders did confessed to in this study. They said, we know that we're strong performers, but we live with persistent self doubt. So I'm seeing this sort of broad crisis of confidence which affects employees at all levels of organizations and the faster we can catch it, the better. So in my practice, one of the things that has been the most exciting for me is the opportunity to work with healthcare providers because the rates in health care are extremely high. For example, medical students report, 90% of them report feeling feelings of imposter syndrome surgery residents, 76% OB, GYN, up to 70%. In a neurosurgery, the rates are the highest and we see up to 94%. And that goes not just for residents and attendings, but also pretty seasoned leaders in the department. So it's very rewarding for me that that study has finally shed some light on prevalence and on how debilitating it can be and on opening up the conversation, normalizing it, and having this opportunity to offer help to other people.
- [20:03]
Scott Becker
No, but it's such a great point because so many people that other people perceive as, oh my goodness, that person's a winner, they're a master of the universe, they're a neurosurgeon, they're a CEO, they're whatever they are, they're President of a hospital, wherever they are, whatever they do, you're an attorney, this tremendously credentialed, very successful attorney. And yet, even though to the outside world it looks like that person has all the makings of success and they are so successful, they still have that internal dialogue where they're quite concerned, where they don't think, feel that way, even though the outer world might see them that way.
- [20:38]
Arise Clapper
And that's the dichotomy. That's exactly where this issue presents itself. Because even in that Korn Ferry study, not only were the statistics so salient, but leaders said, I, I know that I'm successful, but so that disconnect between how well you're doing objectively and by all external measures and how you feel on the inside, it is hard to bridge without support 100%.
- [21:12]
Scott Becker
Aries, two things. I'd love you to take us back to the name of the test that you mentioned that people could take on the imposter syndrome. Let me ask you to start there. Then I want to ask you to tell where people could find you if they'd like to work with you around the imposter syndrome and just generally on executive coaching. So those two things take us back to the 20 question test or so.
- [21:38]
Arise Clapper
Okay, so there are lots of assessments online, but the one that I personally think is easy is the cips. It's the Clance Imposter Phenomenon Scale. Anybody who just looks that up can find the test, can take the assessment, and self score it in five to 10 minutes. I would encourage anybody who is wondering if what they're feeling is imposter syndrome to just start there. The easiest way to find me is through my website, which is Erise Clapper Coaching and Consulting. And as you mentioned, I work with executives and general executive coaching with a real passion and personal interest in imposter syndrome. And I've developed a really effective program for helping people shed this very difficult way of living.
- [22:34]
Scott Becker
Aries, what an absolute pleasure to visit with you. You're such an inspiration and so encouraging. I love what you do. Again, we're visiting today with Aries Clapper and Aries again, where people can find you at your website. Can you. Do you mind just. Well, it'll be spelled out on the release of the podcast and everything else. But do you mind just give us the exact spellings, Reese's E R R I S and then Clapper. Give me the exact spelling of Clapper again.
- [23:01]
Arise Clapper
Hey. L A P P E R Coaching and Consulting. So erase Clapper Coaching and Consulting. And thank you so much for inviting me. Scott. This is such an honor.
- [23:12]
Scott Becker
Oh well, what a pleasure to visit with you. Just fantastic. You've had tremendous experiences here. I love your lifelong passion for learning and growth too. Just phenomenal. Thank you so much for joining us today.
- [23:23]
Arise Clapper
Thank you.
- [23:26]
Grainger Announcer
If you work in university maintenance, Grainger considers you an MVP because your playbook ensures your arena is always ready for tip off. And Grainger is your trusted partner, offering the products you need all in one place, from H Vac and plumbing supplies to lighting and more. And all delivered with plenty of time left on the clock, so your team always gets the win. Call 1-800-granger. Visit granger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.