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Becker Private Equity & Business Podcast
Talent & Recruiting: What Works & What Doesn’t 7-7-26
00:31:14
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- [00:00]
A
This is Scott Becker with the Becker business and the Becker Private Equity podcast. Today's episode deals with talent and recruiting. What works and what doesn't. And here we had four fantastic panelists join us for this panel and podcast. Dylan Warner, the co founder, president, Elevate Talent Advisors, just a terrific, terrific leader in person. Chris Lacey, the founder and CEO of Priority Search Management. Also a great leader and great at what he does. Third, Jeff Friedman, private equity engagement director, Mod Med, who's built a ton of different companies and just a fantastic leader. And finally, Aries Clapper. Aries is the founder and principal executive coach of Clapper Coaching and Consulting and one of the nation's absolute experts on the imposter syndrome. We hope you enjoy this session. Thank you for listening to the Becker Business and the Becker Private Equity podcast. Chris. Dylan, Let me start with you too, Chris.
- [01:02]
B
Yeah. Priority Search Management was founded almost 10 years ago. Coming out of executive search, what I saw was a need in what we call the missing middle. It's a little cheesy, but it's memorable. So that would be that mezzanine layer below the C suite or the executive suite above the hourly. So our focus is helping investment back companies or scaling organizations increase top line, protect their bottom line all by putting in the right folks at that mezzanine level that are protecting their profit and carrying out that strategy and executing it boots on the ground. That's where we focus and what we do.
- [01:44]
A
Thank you. Chris and Dylan, talk about your business and also you've got a side business and also a growing family. But tell us about your business, the core of Elevate.
- [01:54]
C
Yeah, so I am one of the co founders of Elevate Talent Advisors alongside my brother Brett. I come from more boutique style recruiting. Always was a 1099 or something into a smaller firm. He comes from Robert Half Judge Group, more corporate recruiting. And we decided to, you know, put our focuses together and start our own. So we focus on permanent full time placements. Our niche is that we don't have a niche. Anybody that gives us a shot, we, we will find a way to make it happen. Whether we hire someone that's an industry expert to help us find talent or other industries that we've recruited in the past. Scott's alluding to a lot of pounds ago. I was a boxer. So I had my own little boxing training business that I do on the side. My brother runs a really good sized AAU basketball program. So we're just out there trying to make money and helps us make connections everywhere we go. And Then I have a five year old, a four year old and a three month old. So if you hear somebody screaming, everybody's okay, they're locked in their rooms, they're fine. You know, business comes first.
- [03:01]
A
So it's a growing family and as good as they come. Aries, tell us about yourself and about what you do today.
- [03:09]
D
So it's nice to see you again, Scott. As you know, I am an almost completely retired lawyer, but for projects here and there, I'm a pretty active freelance writer and I'm a certified executive coach. My specialty is imposter syndrome navigation and management, but I help executives and healthcare leaders in all aspects of the job. I have a master's degree in industrial and organizational psychology and I think everything I've done speaks to my absolute fascination with the psychology of work. We spend so much, so much of our lives at work and I want to know everything that's behind that. I recently launched a podcast that I host. It's called beyond your job and we explore work, life, balance, everything in between.
- [04:01]
A
Fantastic. And thank you so much for joining us. Aries and Jeff, can you take a moment to introduce yourself?
- [04:07]
E
I'll make this very brief. I'm downstream from all three of these people. Frankly, I'm disappointed. I didn't know them. When I was the CEO of a ophthalmology business, of a dental business, I ran oncology clinics. They are to me, in just their introductions, different from the people that represent those roles. And I'm not saying that to Glad Hand, I'm just telling you that there's a practicalness that I just heard from these three people. And in all candor, the last hour and a half, this is like a masterclass. I hope somebody's. I know it's being recorded. There's a lot of great stuff going on. I don't think we'll get to this meaty topic in 30 minutes, but less of an introduction, more of a, of a. This is how I'm feeling. Listen to this. And this is what I'm interested in talking about.
- [04:59]
A
Jeff, thank you and I appreciate it so much as always. You're literally the best. And I'm going to, I'm going to start with Chris, go to Dylan, Aries and Jeff back around and I'll try and intersect the different questions that we've got here for each of you that make it make sense. Chris, I'll start with you. What hiring strategies are working best today? What do you. What's, what's going well, what's not going well in the Hiring business and getting companies the right talent and getting people the right roles.
- [05:28]
B
Yeah, the, what I think is going well are the clients that we work with that are more proactive in pipelining what they need. So they, they have a clear current picture of what their capabilities are internally and they're taking action on it. Meaning they're, they're not being caught when somebody leaves or exits or the, the landscape changes and they're having to be reactive on hiring. The ones who are doing it well and what's producing the best results today are the ones that our proactive pipelining. So for, let's just say an investment backed healthcare company, if they know their, their clinical operations are going to be growing, they are looking at what type of clinician they're going to need or what type of leader they may need in that setting. Same could be if they know they want to continue to scale and grow. What is their referral pipeline look like? Do they need to add a business development or commercial layer? So the ones who are building a proactive pipeline are doing it well, but it only works if they, if they have internal clarity on what those needs are. So they're not taking it for granted, they're not being reactive to it, they're being proactive.
- [06:47]
A
Thank you very, very much. And Dylan, let me ask you this question. Where are companies struggling to find talent? Where do you see the struggle to find talent? Where is it easier to find talent today? Is there a mismatch between people's qualifications and what companies need? What are you seeing out there?
- [07:05]
C
Yeah, I think the place that most people are struggling, especially who we're working with, is that mid level either sales role or leadership role. You know, people, it's easy to find the college grads right now. Unfortunately most of them are coming out with nothing to do. So you are getting hit with hundreds of applications a day, you know, and, and still a lot of senior type roles are easier to find because people have built a network like Chris is saying over, over the years of high level people that they have talked to that they can reach out to. It's really finding that mid level, the mid level person and the, the struggle is what do you do in that situation? Do you, do you hire internally and hire someone that's just kind of worked your system over the years or do you go out and find, you know, someone's with a, with a higher trajectory and that's where most companies are struggling today? I think a lot of companies are looking internally and I totally get that. You know, they want to promote within their company, but they're missing out on so much talent out there. I've got people that are, have such higher trajectory and that can come in and kind of, you know, mess with the status quo over there and serve some things up to help the company grow.
- [08:15]
A
And let me ask you both this question and then I'm going to move to Aries and Jeff Dylan, first someone comes to you looking to fill a spot. What's the first thing you do with trying to help them fill that spot? And what does that look like today? How much of that is technology driven versus just your team and people reaching out to people? What does that look like in trying to find candidates today?
- [08:43]
C
Yeah, so I think as many good recruiters do, we come in with a consultative approach as a consultant, as a partner of our client. So first I will say to the owner, have you gone to your top people, the person that you want to replace, and ask who they know? We all know you are, who you hang around. So if you want someone exactly like, you know, your top producer, your top operations up or whoever in that seat, chances are they probably hang around that, that that person or know somebody, know a competitor of theirs that they can reach out to. You know, that that hurts my wallet directly. But you know, it's always my, my first question and then I go to my network, who do I know, who can I reach out to, who knows who? I want to play the referral game in my seat as much as possible because I come in with credibility right away. I know somebody that knows this person that can vouch for them. Now I put my name behind them, someone else's name behind them, and they look that much better when we submit them to a client. And then third, you know, we use all the tools, LinkedIn and whatnot. You know, we'll, we'll go to that as our, as our tertiary, you know, objective there because that's how we find people that we've never heard of before. But other than that, you know, plug and play, chat, GPT, Claude, whatever you need to use to find somebody.
- [09:57]
A
No, fascinating, but, but your point is so well taken that so much of it starts with networking and referring and knowing people. You have a better sense of credibility versus a total stranger. We work in the networks. Chris, your thoughts on that? How do you sort of go about starting somebody's search and starting to find them, the right people?
- [10:15]
B
Sure, I'm going to steal a phrase that you said months ago, Scott. It's hand to hand combat. So it really is about Relationships. We definitely utilize AI on the front end, but every search is bespoke and it's custom and the database that we have is a living, breathing organism. So whatever worked today is likely not going to work tomorrow and people's lives change. So while we do have a network, we want to make sure that we're covering the universe of who is in that role today at like companies. So we'll leverage AI on the front end, but it's hand to hand combat going forward. It's about how we reach out, the message that we tell. Because there is PE skepticism, we work with a lot of investment backed companies and at the level we work at, there's PE skepticism. And so it comes down to explaining that impact and the culture that they're going to step in. But that is how we do it on the front end.
- [11:16]
A
Thank you very, very much. Aries, you spend your time really focused on a really interesting issue, which is this concept of the imposter syndrome. And most of us at some point in some role have felt like, am I really the right person for this? Am I prepared for this? Am I in the right seat? Talk a bit about how you got so interested in this area and where this could fit into the recruiting and talent and team building discussions with companies or with an individual trying to present themselves or be confident that they're the right person for the right role.
- [11:52]
D
So that's an excellent question because you're talking about both the potential candidate and the recruiter. And I think that it really just starts with education. There's so much information out there today on imposter syndrome. There's also a ton of myths and I know you and I have spoken about that. It's important to get real research based information and understand what it is, what it isn't and how it affects individuals. And then I'm not suggesting that anybody diagnose anybody else, but having some sensitivity and empathy to the candidate who is having an interview and has a great skill set, not just a whole bunch of fluff and filler on the resume, but actual experiences and are maybe selling themselves short. So that's a place where working with a coach and I mean, the truth is I normally come in on the back end when there's a problem, not so much on the front end, but having that education and understanding what the issue is, that could be a barrier to hiring somebody. Amazing. I also want to mention that imposter syndrome disproportionately affects marginalized groups, women, neurodivergent individuals, so they may Present differently at an interview and without the sensitivity and the understanding of what's going on, you might miss out on a great candidate who's in resume got through, no problem with AI.
- [13:21]
A
But, but, but talk about that, because sometimes people undersell themselves and end up being really great candidates because they're a little bit shy, a little embarrassed. But, but that doesn't really show the real motor, their underlying motor and drive. And how do you try and recognize that so that you're hiring the right person, even though that person might not have the confidence that we think they should have?
- [13:45]
D
Go ahead, Scott.
- [13:46]
A
Well, we often find the other thing where people are overselling themselves and all of us as recruiters can't stand that. But the person who really has a deep motor, they might not have big charisma or that outgoing, but they're actually fantastic. How do you get them in the right mindset?
- [14:06]
D
So, a couple of thoughts. I've been asked before if arrogance is the opposite of imposter syndrome, and the answer is no. You can be an arrogant person. It has nothing to do with imposter syndrome and vice versa. Same with perfectionism. So again, understanding what the issue is, a person who has a resume filled with fluff that is all form over substance, a good recruiter is going to be able to get to the bottom of that or in the secondary and tertiary processes of the interviewing process, because people are going to ask exactly about the experience. So once you take away the millions of certifications that are all available out there online and build up people's resumes and make them look like they've taken every class under the sun, once we take all of that away and we're having a conversation about actual experiences, describe this project to me. Describe how you solve a problem. What happens when you disagree with someone. Whatever the questions are, and I'm not the expert on hr, whatever the questions are, you get to the bottom of whether that person is experienced or teachable. Because to me, somebody who is motivated and somebody who is coachable is a great candidate. Agility, transferable skills, the ability to learn and the ability to be a great team member because that's what creates a great environment. It's everybody on the team, it's not just the person. And I just want to touch on one last thing. I don't love vague notions of cultural fit in interviews. When people say, oh, this person seems like someone I could really work with, or they remind me of someone that work with now or they remind me of myself, that's we all do it it's unconscious bias. We can help ourselves, but we need to be conscious of it because that's not really structured. And I'm not sure if Dylan and Chris would agree, but year after year, the research shows that structured metrics, where we can actually compare metrics one to the other, along with really thoughtful questions and a holistic approach, really prod the best results. There's no way that we can sit in front of someone and no way that we should and say, oh, this person has imposter syndrome.
- [16:30]
A
But you, you said something that's really important and it's completely changed the face of, of sports and talent evaluation. And well documented, like the Moneyball movie is a great movie about this concept is this concept that people used to judge somebody. He looks a certain way, she presents a certain way, she talks to me a certain way, versus really digging deep at what they've done the last 10 years and their stats and so forth. And they would overemphasize sort of like the personal qualities versus actually what the person does in their actual motor and their record. So I, I, I love your point on that. It resonates so well and what we've seen over the years in hiring ourselves. Jeff, you've been in charge of building executive teams and leadership teams over a long period of time. What advice do you give to people in building leadership teams? How do you sort of fill out a leadership team? How do you evaluate talent? How do you work with people like Chris and Dylan in the search business? How do you think about these things?
- [17:28]
E
Yeah, so this is such a, this is an amazing topic and impossible to do in a short period of time. Obviously this is, I think about this as sort of the least amount of work for the biggest amount of impact, which is people. And it's not that there's not work, but it's the biggest amount of impact. So one of the things I've heard at least two of the three other panelists say, which is an answer to your question about advice, is this idea of education. I'm going to make a bold statement, but I'm just going to say it. I'm just surprised at how many people have gotten to a certain level of their career and they don't know how to interview people. We all talk about the candidate. You got to be prepared how to interview, like do this, do that, and eris, you're just saying, like, come off this way and all that's really important. But I'm stunned. How do you interview people? You just said, eris, I got to get at this topic. I have been on more interview panels and I walk away. I got really classically schooled when I was at Gallo wine in the 80s on how to interview. And I go, how did you miss that in that person? And it's because they just aren't educated on how to interview. So that's one point. My second point is the research will tell you that when you align incentives, good people will perform better. And in healthcare, think about a healthcare practice, if you align incentives and you say you're going to have a piece of the profit because you're going to do your thing better, making sure you don't get in the way of clinical care. You don't want to ramp something down somebody's throat and it's going to change the outcome of the patient. But aligning incentives is an enormous piece of advice that I would give a CEO. And I would end by the following statement. This is your single biggest priority, bar none. There's nothing close when you do it right. Organization successful. I have failed at this more times, I can tell you. And I look back and go, God, it was so obvious. But if you prioritize it and get the coaching, all you guys are great at this, man, you'll get a great team. But if you make it like your third thing, I got to get my investor happy and blah, blah, forget it. I mean, that's, I'm being bold, but that's how I look at this after a lot of years.
- [19:56]
A
No, no, I love that. And I also have this concept with managers. Every hire you ultimately make is a little bit of an educated guess and a gamble. And almost the worst thing that could happen is the hiring person getting too gun shy about hiring and also not learning what they should be looking for as they hire. Chris, what do you see companies doing right in hiring? And Dylan, I'm going to ask you the same question. What do you see companies doing right in their hiring today and recruiting today?
- [20:32]
B
Yeah, I think that those that have a clear picture of what it is they need, what the business needs, not necessarily what they want, and they approach it with some impartiality. Going back to Eris's comment, and by the way, I do agree wholeheartedly with what you said. There is Jeff Smart, calls him voodoo hiring practices. You know, I want somebody that I can get a beer with or their spirit animal needs to be a cheetah, which none of that makes any sense. But I think those that have a clear picture of what it is the organization needs and then can lead to that and hire the right people based on what the organization needs. And I'll just, I'm going to steal what Jeff just said. I thought it was brilliant. Align incentives. I've heard leaders say I want them to take ownership, we'll give them ownership. They can't take something that they don't have. So if you align incentives and again with some of the, we work with investment backed companies, so there's some PE skepticism out there. But, but if you, you can align incentives, really talk about what the organization needs, share with that individual, how they get to move the needle so that they can come in with clear vision on what it is they're going to do each day and what that outcome is going to be. That is something that fewer organizations do, but the ones who do it, they get it right.
- [22:01]
A
And how important is it, you know, to put together that list of here's what we're looking for in somebody, here's what we're looking for in that position. How important is that? And then how do you be careful not to turn that list into 80 things so that you're not. So that you're making it useful versus just a game? Develop a big list.
- [22:24]
B
Yeah, it's the old proverb of give me six hours to chop down the tree and I'll spend four or five sharpening the axe. They really need to focus on the tool to make the job easier. So it's critically important to put that list together. And yeah, we can all make a big list. But that's where it comes to the senior leadership. Having a seat at the table in each one, having that seat, knowing where the organization is going and how their function aligns with that particular outcome. Good chros can see that talent need put together proactive pipelines, understand which functions maybe have the clearest path to the outcome and which ones don't. And then focusing those efforts and needs there, whether it's internal talent acquisition or using a partner like Dylan or myself to come in and help augment that as an embedded partner.
- [23:21]
A
Thank you very, very much. And Dylan, as you see companies doing this right, really doing a good job, finding the right talent, placing the right talent, what are they doing? What are the organizations doing that you think handle this right? Because there's this great balance between pace. If you're too slow in moving forward in your process, you lose people always particularly the good people. At the same time, you want to be deliberate and thoughtful about getting the right people. How do you, how do organizations do this?
- [23:48]
C
Well, you just answered the question right There it's all about pace of interview and coming in prepared. You know, I can't tell you the amount of times that I've sent people on interviews and they will have the first round and went great. And then they go, well, we have to figure out who they want to talk to next. And I'm like, well, we don't know who's, who they're talking to next and when they can get on the phone. And all of a sudden a week goes by, two weeks go by and that candidate is also an interview process somewhere, somewhere else. And that company has it streamlined, they have it down, packed, it's three phone calls, you know, HR person or internal recruiter person that they're, they're reporting to an owner of the company, if it's a small company, however you want to structure it. And they say, wow, this process was, you know, this process was great. And that's the type of company that I want to go with. I tell all of our clients, yes, you are interviewing, but so are the candidates. They're interviewing you on if they want to work there. So don't just think this is one sided, this is person going to come on our team. They're thinking, should I join your team? And the best companies are the ones that are going into that call just as nervous as the candidates, saying, man, I hope we do this right to get this person to want to join us.
- [24:53]
E
Yeah. Are you somebody that wants that, that, that somebody wants to work for? I mean that, that's what you're saying. Sorry to interrupt you, Scott, but no, perfect.
- [25:02]
B
Yeah.
- [25:03]
A
Yeah, but I think that's so important, Jeff, because if you went back, you know, you and I are old enough to go back to the era where we used to say it was more important to be respected than liked. In today as a leader, it's really got to be both. Right? You got to be, you don't have to be go having a beer with a person. But people got to believe that you care about them and you want them to thrive too. And it's got to be true.
- [25:25]
E
Yeah, the data is still true. That it's probably not the money that makes you leave. It's. I just, you know, I didn't connect with my boss. It's, you know, that you have to be that person that somebody wants to work for and if you don't know how to interview, you don't have that style, that chemistry, you're going to get the wrong person. I mean it's just, it's just factual and you Guys that are doing this every day know that. Sorry, Scott, I didn't mean to inject that. Such a critic.
- [25:51]
A
No. Thrilled to have you inject. Aries, any thoughts you want to add into this? Because you've seen this, obviously you're a professional coach today, spent a lot of time around the imposter syndrome, but also done a lot of hiring, a lot of working with people. Any final pieces of advice for either candidates or companies in the talented recruitment era?
- [26:09]
D
I think that what ties in what everybody said here today, I don't want to speak for anybody else, but I think we might agree that it can't just be transactional. It's about building relationships. That's why when a candidate doesn't get a job but walks away and says, okay, but that was a fair process. I had the phone call. A week later I had a second phone call. I knew what happened. I was kept abreast of the situation. I didn't get it. That didn't work out. I'm disappointed, but I'm not feeling badly about the process. I'm not trashing the company and that's just the right thing to do. Not just because we want our reputations preserved, but because it builds relationships and it's important for everyone.
- [26:52]
A
Thank you very, very much. Let me give you, Dylan, any final thoughts if people should be thinking about in the recruitment process and then Chris will ask you the same question. And Jeff, you too.
- [27:04]
C
Yeah, the, the recruiting process is all about the person to person connection. You know, there's obviously you need your AI tools and everything to keep up with, you know, the industries and all that. But you know, the true hires are someone that we feel like that we have connected with person to person. So when you post a job on LinkedIn or where have you and you put in your keywords and you're only getting your resumes up with the people with those keywords, you know, you're probably not finding that right person. I think the interview process, you know, to keep saying it over and over again, is to make sure that you really connect with somebody there and not rely too heavily on. On technology.
- [27:45]
A
Love that. Chris, any final thoughts?
- [27:49]
B
Yeah, I'd say what Dylan said, and I'm going to steal something from Aris, is be proactive in your pipeline, but also bring authentic culture proof points to the interview process, not just generic narratives. Really talk about going back to the process. Sell first, then qualify, gain interest, build relationship, give. I like to call it give a crap. Just give a crap about the other person on the other End of the line. And if it doesn't work out, that's okay. If you have a legitimate process, you understand what your culture points are and what the needs of the business are, lead with those in your interview process.
- [28:36]
A
Love that. Jeff, any closing thoughts?
- [28:38]
E
Thanks for making the last comment. This has been an amazing day. I say that genuinely. This is something that you should look at the recording. I'll give my summary on the point that I think is so critical. I don't know that we have a talent shortage, and maybe the data would say otherwise, but we definitely have a shortage in how to pick the right person. And that comes down to whoever the leader is that's making the hiring decision has made more bad decisions than good decisions. Get educated. All three of these people can teach you how to find that, that real, you know, that nugget, that connecting point. But if you don't do that, and it's, oh, I really liked him, let's hire them, that person really works out. So, you know, make it a, make it an education if you're an executive trying to hire somebody.
- [29:27]
A
Aries, any final thoughts?
- [29:29]
D
I think that people love to talk about a shortage of talent out there, so I'm definitely piggybacking on Jeff. I'm hearing about that a lot, and I don't think that that's what it is. I think that there's a disconnect and a gap between, yes, rapidly changing needs of organizations, but organizational lack of a reluctance on the part of organizations to be specific in their job descriptions, to say what it is that they need, and then to actually invest in the people. Because if there are rapidly changing needs, then there's also a rapid change for, for, for, for education and for training. And so I, I don't, I. Right now, I'm not buying into the idea that there is a shortage of talent. I think that there's a disconnect, and I think that there's the return to office policies, which we've seen over the last two years, and generational differences that we see. And I know that I come at it from a psychological standpoint, but that's what causes the disconnect. And then that kind of lack of professionalism and education on how we drill down and make those connections leaves us in this position that we're in.
- [30:43]
A
Thank you so much. Chris Lacy. Dylan Werner, Aries Clapper, Jeff Friedman. I want to thank all of you so much for joining us this afternoon. What a pleasure to visit with you. Thank you for listening to the Becker business and the Becker private Equity Business Leadership Summit. Again, thank you to each of our sponsors, McGuire woods, perpetuate capital, Thinkspan Priority Search Management, Grange Product Partners, Bearden Warner and Elevate Talent Advisors. Thank you very much.
- [31:15]
F
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