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Becker Private Equity & Business Podcast
Sports with David Pivnick of McGuireWoods LLP 6-27-26
00:23:47
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- [00:02]
A
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- [00:30]
B
This is Scott Becker with the Becker Business and Becker Private Equity podcast. We're thrilled today to visit with one of our favorite guests, the brilliant David Pivnick. David's a partner at McGuire Woods. Brilliant litigator, but he's also a well versed person on a lot of subjects. We often talk sports with David Pivnick and today we'll talk sports and leadership with David. David, so many different sports stories going on, I don't know where to start. I know you're a Milwaukee Bucks fan and they just decided to trade Giannis to the Miami Heat for two players. I don't even know who they are. And then also the, the NBA Finals was exciting between the Knicks and the Spurs. The World cup is going on, you know, and, and, and there's some storylines there too, that are interesting. Even if you're, you know, a, a provincial type person like me and don't care that much about world soccer. It sure is interesting to watch. And I'm also of course a Blackhawks fan, so I'm very much watching the Chicago Black Sox draft to see what happens with that. Who drops to number four? David, what's top of mind for you? What, what, what sports are you finding the most closely right now? Is it the yacht, the Giannis story out of Milwaukee with them trading their ultra superstar? What do you watch most closely?
- [01:44]
C
Yeah, I mean, right, right now, I'd say three things and you touched on all of them. I mean the yacht of straight that that broke just before midnight last night is sort of most top of mind today just because it was, you know, it seems like it's been hanging over the Bucks heads and fans of the Bucks for years. And so I, I think that was a long time coming seemingly and in some ways nice to have, have it done, but also the whole change of trajectory for the franchise. So I mean, that's the biggest thing on my mind this morning. I've been watching an excessive amount of soccer over the last few weeks. I am by no means a major soccer fan, but have found myself completely taken in by the World cup and watching, you know, just about every game that I can, even if it's just on in the background. And certainly I'm very focused on the Blackhawks, you know, offseason, because I think this is sort of a critical off season for Kyle Davidson, the general manager, to start turning the corner meaningfully to putting together a winning roster on the ice. So those are the three things that are most top of mind. Happy to talk about any of them.
- [02:49]
B
Well, let's also talk about. Let's also talk about one of the things that I am enjoying watching is the heartbreak at the University of Michigan as Dusty May leaves the University of Michigan. I. I forgot that was my favorite story of yesterday. Dusty May becomes the latest in the gym harbor Sharon Moore coaching carousel that has become the University of Michigan, albeit without Dusty May having the ethical challenges of Sharon Moore or Jim Harbaugh. What do you make of that? And how upset will Wolverine Nation be about that? Because that's actually great fun to watch for all of us that are not University Michigan fans.
- [03:28]
C
Yeah, I mean, not the pour cold water on your joy. I think. Look, for Michigan fans, it wasn't a great day. I think Dusty Bay is a terrific coach, had built something very quickly into, you know, a powerful program, far better than the prior basketball coaches at Michigan for the last decade. And I think they had a lot to be excited about with Dusty Bay. The flip side of that is they have a big budget and will likely hire a decent replacement. They have a talented roster for last year and they're coming off the national championship. So, you know, I guess a small violin can get played for the Michigan fans today for this tiny amount of inconvenience in what has been a pretty charmed existence for three years, notwithstanding those coaching departures. But I can't imagine they're all that upset about it in the grand scheme of things. And as I said to one of my close friends who's a Michigan alum and fan yesterday, if you told me that Brad Underwood was going to lead Illinois to a national championship this year, but was then going to leave and we had to hire John Gross back and go through some more Gross years, I would still be elated to take that deal and win a national championship this season, so. Right.
- [04:47]
B
But it does seem that the Michigan fans are more spoiled and privileged than you are who grew up in the backwaters of Toronto. It seems like there would be more of that arrogance at the University of Michigan than someone who's essentially a country person from the back roads of Toronto.
- [05:04]
C
Yeah, I mean, I would say most people who know me do often describe me as a country backroads person. I get that a lot. So I get where you're coming from and that ethos may be part of what's guiding my view. And you're right that the Michigan fan base is somewhat arrogant. It has a fair amount of hubris, so they may not see it quite that way. But all in all, I think Michigan will will end up being fine coming out of this as they hang another banner in a few months and overpay some other guy to do a perfectly confident job with their talent related roster.
- [05:41]
B
Talk about the loss of Giannis. Is this a bigger heartbreak for the Milwaukee fandom? There was so much promise in the Giannis years, but is he sort of past his peak? Anyways, what do you make of all this? I know he wants to be traded, but what do you make of all the Giannis stuff in Milwaukee?
- [05:59]
C
I mean, look, I think the most notable part of all of this is that you're calling him Giannis. I think that shouldn't be lost on any of the listeners. Great pronunciation of Giannis shows that you've been a fan for all these years. But I mean, the short of it is I think it was time. I was sad when it finally happened, like when the news broke, but I've expected that for a while. It certainly would be far less, it certainly was far less devastating to me than if Scotty Barnes was traded, you know, from my beloved Raptors, who, you know, are my true NBA passion. But as a guy who had buck season tickets for years and loves watching Giannis play and loved what he meant in the city, I think it's a little bit heartbreaking for Bucks fans and for the city. And I think it's bad frankly for the franchise long term. Like ticket sales are undeniably going to suffer. And you know, it's a city that already didn't sell out outside of the peak Yanis years. They already weren't selling out last year and this is going to make that worse, which may make the long term viability of the franchise an issue. It's a smallish market.
- [07:10]
B
By M Are these guys that they got from Miami, is this like Luka Doncic where they really didn't get anything or what is this? What exactly? Who did they get?
- [07:20]
C
I think it's a different deal than the Luca trade on a couple fronts. One of them frankly being the fact that Giannis apparently he has a year left on his contract that apparently had told them he was, he wasn't going to reside. So the time was now. And to your point, from the prior question, you know, Giannis is still an outstanding player and I suspect that he will be an even. I think you'll have a resurgence in Miami, but he's on the back end of his prime. Unlike Luca, who's approaching his prime. He, you know, he's eligible for another massive contract. His game is based heavily on athleticism, which tends to fade a little bit with age and he's had major injuries for many years. He only played 36 games last year, was hurt, you know, on at least three different occasions, had missed games in the playoffs for several years. The last few times they made it. So I think it's a different dynamic from that standpoint. And then they didn't get sort of the star power of a guy like Anthony Davis, but they got a lot of pieces. Whether those pieces develop remains to be seen, but I think it's better than a lot of people are giving it credit for being. You know, Tyler Herro was a great, great one year player in college and has been an NBA all star just a couple of years ago and is a guy who's easily capable of scoring 20 points a night in the NBA, has done that on multiple occasions and I fully expect is going to be the leading scorer on the Bucks next year assuming they hold on to him. There's rumors they may flip him for more picks. You know, I think you'll be the leading score and sort of run the offense. The three other players they got are the Heat last three first round picks, Jaime Hawkes Jr. Khalil Ware and Casper Yakichotes. Yakichotes, as you likely will recall, was Illinois star point guard last year. I think he's got a lot of potential. I think he's got some growing that he needs to do as a basketball player, but I think he's got a lot of potential. Hawkes Jr. Is a bench player. Ultimately he's a six man, but I think he's a very, very good six man. And Khalil Ware I think has potential to be a starting big in the NBA. He can defend a little bit, he's a good rebounder and he's got decent scoring touch. So do I think there's a superstar that they got back? Unequivocally, no. Do I think some of those guys have the potential to be all Stars? Yes. And do I think that it gives the team some more depth And a whole heck of a lot more youth also. Yes. And where I didn't think the Bucks had any chance to compete this coming year with Yacht, and they didn't really have any young prospects with a lot of upside potential and they didn't have picks. It feels like they're in a much better spot today, you know, building for the future. The challenge, of course, being they traded their own picks to get Dame Lillard a couple of years ago. So they're going to have, you know, some years that are lean years where they also don't have their own draft pick to look forward to.
- [10:16]
B
Thank you. It'll be exciting to see what Giannis does in Miami to see if I assume that the Bucs management, and this has got to be complicated. Your Bucks management, it's almost like being Mavericks management. Mavericks management had to be happy to see the Lakers flame out in the, in the NBA playoffs for whatever reason. And I assume, quite frankly, that Bucks management, for a million reasons like saving their jobs, will be, will be happy to see Miami not do so well with, with Giannis, you know, in this new, new trade. So we've talked about, talked about Giannis, we've talked about, you know, Dusty May. I'm, I'm one who's obviously glad to see the, you know, the loss of, of Michigan's head coach with the arrogance that comes with the University of Michigan. But, but what is your sense of, you know, what are you watching next most closely? Blackhawks draft, World cup or any reflections of the Knicks, you know, Spurs Finals and how much the spurs just got relentlessly beaten up there?
- [11:15]
C
Yeah, I mean, look on the, the Finals. I, I'm not a Knicks fan. I, I really am not a Knicks fan. Cannot say that strongly enough. But I, I will say happy for their fans. I don't like the team. I don't necessarily like their fan base. As a general statement, I find also a fairly arrogant fan base for a team that hasn't won anything in 50 years. They, they seem to talk a lot, but good for them for finally getting a championship. I think it's great for the city of New York that's got lots going on in it and I think they've got a lot of long suffering fans. I kind of enjoyed watching Celebrity Row during the postseason. I love seeing the Seinfeld and Larry David, you know, jokes and references about, you know, the, you watch Seinfeld, but the old episode of Jerry trying to rent the car and he said, you know, you took the reservation but you didn't keep the reservation, and that's the key part. And then people had memes about how the spurs kept taking the leads but couldn't hold the leads. And that was a key part. And I think that's the biggest story. I mean, good for the Knicks. They're an unbelievably resilient team. Jalen Brunson is a superstar and is just a terrific player. I think I, we had a podcast where I discussed that a few weeks ago where I commented that I think he's a true leader and clutch and wills his team to win. And he really proved that sort of prescient with the way he played in the Finals. So the Knicks deserved it. And I don't say what I'm about to say next to take anything away, but I, I think the story of the Finals to be other than great win by the Knicks is the spurs just massively choking. I mean, let me ask you about
- [12:55]
B
that because you know that when I see a team that's up 29 and loses every game, they seem to pull big leads. The last game they had a 13, 13 point lead and then blew it. How much of that is coaching like I've never seen, you know, usually used to see teams slow it down a little bit when you're up 30, you know, and there's this concept of keep pressing, keep going for it. But at some point, as you see that lead evaporate, don't you at some point start to slow down the pace a little bit? I mean, not, maybe not to the four corners, team Smith type stuff, but it was just, I was just awestruck at how poorly I thought they were coached during those games. Any comments here? Am I reading that wrong? Do you see it differently?
- [13:34]
C
No, you're really that spot on. And I mean, to be fair to Mitch Johnson, I think it was youth and inexperience in all phases. And we talk a lot about leadership and making sure that you have the right leadership for the goals you're trying to accomplish, as well as then deploying your personnel in the right ways to maximize returns. And I think it was failures on all of those fronts by the Spurs. Mitch Johnson may end up being a terrific coach. He had a good regular season, but they don't lose that series of. Greg Popovich was still coaching the team in his prime, or even a little after. His pride. Mitch Johnson had a lot of young mistakes, youth, inexperienced mistakes as a coach, and the players did too. They didn't have a lot of playoff experience. There's a lot of young guys on the roster and whether it was taking bad shots, whether it's Wemby throwing a pass off the back of a teammate in game two after they made a great comeback, and he literally throws the game away. And in that situation, unequivocally, the coach should have called a timeout. One just drop your best play for the last shot. That's unequivocal. And I said it as soon as he caught the rebound. I said call a timeout in 18 that now envisioned it as three. Etches common sense. And Castle needs to be ready and Wendy needs to be looking like young mistakes. Wembley's going to be a superstar, probably the best player in the league for the next decade. He's unbelievably talented, but watching him taking multiple deep breaths and sighing before shooting free throws again, I mean, I said to my oldest Zachary, who I was watching with that he's going to miss both. And he clanked bone. He just didn't look. He looked very nervous. And that happens sometimes. Youth and inexperienced and other guys.
- [15:23]
B
You also don't want your 7 foot 4 guy or 5 guy or however tall he is constantly out there. Shoot him for three points. I mean, it just seems like a total waste of a big of that size and caliber. Even if he's a great shooter once in a while. It's cute. But I certainly don't want my tall superstar. Reminds me of Brad Sellers with the Bulls. It just is a. You know, you want somebody to be inside, blocking, scoring in the post and stuff like that, don't you? I mean, it just seemed ridiculous to me.
- [15:52]
C
I look up the first of all, I sincerely hope that Brad Sellers or somebody that knows him is listening to this so that he is aware that he was just referred to as a superstar. Because I think that's the nicest thing anyone's ever said about Brad Sellers. So that that's great. But on Wemby, look, I agree with you. I think he can shoot the three. He is an elite shooter and so that's part of his game that it makes sense for him to do it. The balance is part of where they struggled when they kept blowing these leads is they were completely incapable of getting an easy bucket. And when you have a guy, you know, like Yachtis, who's a seven footer and dunks a ton and you can dump the ball down to him and he can dunk it or get fouled consistently. Shaq used to be able to do that. You know, Jalen Brunson doesn't go in the paint, but Consistently gets buckets when his team is dealing with the run the other way. The spurs just didn't run effective offense. They looked like they were trying to kill the clock and then with like 3 to 4 seconds left on the shot clock realized like, oh shoot, we got to shoot this. And then would just chuck the ball. And then they had a lot of just discreet bad decision making. Like I don't, I don't feel good frankly picking on de' Aaron Fox because literally everybody else on the planet already is picking on him. So at this point it just kind of feels mean spirited. But I mean, he was disastrously bad in the finals and some of the decisions and mistakes that he made, you know, I imagine are keeping him up at night. And he seems like a perfectly nice guy and I think he's a very solid player who just A, I don't think he was completely healthy, B, had a couple, you know, terrible two weeks. But the number of just inexcusably bad plays down the stretch that were either bad execution or just bad decision making, driving for a layup up one with 12 seconds to go instead of dribbling to the corner and getting fouled, that's just basketball one on one that players of all ages should know and he certainly knows better. So I think it was really everything that could go wrong went wrong for the spurs and that's how you blow for double digit leads in the finals, including a 29 point lead.
- [18:05]
B
No. Simply fascinating, quite frankly. So. So we've talked about most of our favorite subjects. We did talk about Dusty may leave in Michigan. My favorite subject, Giannis leaving Milwaukee, the spurs falling apart, Blackhawks draft. Are they going to get, are they going to end up with one of the defensemen or they can get one of the superstar forwards. What's your sense? What falls them at number four?
- [18:34]
C
Yeah, I mean, I think McKenna, Kevin McKenna is almost certainly going number one to the Leafs. And you know, there were rumors for a while that this, the Sharks were going to take a defenseman at number two. I never really bought that. And based on all the current reporting and, and frankly what all of the odds markets are doing, it appears as though they're going to take, you know, Ivers, Denver, Stenberg at number two, who I think is the second best player in the draft and is the right pick. I hope he somehow falls to the Blackhawks, but I just don't think that's realistic. I'd also love the Blackhawks to trade up the two to get them again. I don't think it's going to happen. So I think it's going to go McKenna and Stenberg and then I think it really depends on whether the Canucks, you know, who are going to have Manny Malhotra coaching them, want to draft his son number three, who is a legit top five prospect in this draft or whether they're not comfortable doing that. So I think it'll either be Malhotra going number three to the Canucks or Chase Reed, the defenseman, best defenseman going to the Canucks. And I think if Malhotra is available for the Hawks at 4, they're going to take him. If he's not, I do think they're going to take the best defenseman available at that point. I'm just not sure whether they view Carson Carroll, who's more of a stay at home defenseman but also has an offensive polish, very, very solid, well rounded player. Chase Reed, who's just an incredible offensive defensive, very explosive, or Keenan Verhoff who was the top ranked defensive coming into this last season. I think any of those three are in the running. I've heard the Blackhawks like Carroll's a lot, but it's not like they're consulting me on it. And Reed seems to be the consensus best available. So I think it'll either be Malhotra available or one of the defensemen likely Reed or Carrolls. Right.
- [20:17]
B
At one point people were talking about Starberg falling down to the fourth spot. That seems increasingly unlikely as I'm reading the mock draft today and yesterday and stuff like that. Fascinating. Mahoutra, I did not realize he's the son of the Canucks coach. He's the guy playing at Penn State right now. Is that Mahotra or is that McKenna?
- [20:32]
C
No, no, that's McKenna. McKenna is at Penn State. Malhotra played actually for Branford in the Ontario Hockey League and has played with, you know, he played last year on a line with Marek Vaneker, who was a Blackhawks first round pick two years ago and was on fire all season. So the Blackhawks have spent, you know, copious amounts of time scouting him, are very familiar with the game and he really emerged this season, had a terrific year, got better and better as the year progressed, has a very well rounded game and I think will be a solid NHL or the biggest criticism is, you know, I think many people don't view him as necessarily like a top line center, probably more of a great number two center, which you know can be tough if that's who you're drafting at the fourth overall. But the flip side is if we ended up getting a very, very good number two center, I'd be very pleased with that. So I don't think there's a bad option. I think the biggest challenge is I think all of the options other than McKenna and Stenberg are unlikely to be contributing at the NHL level next year, and the Blackhawks need a significant infusion of talent, you know, at the NHL level right now. So I think the biggest challenge will be figuring out how to fill out the roster and make meaningful improvements outside of the draft, because I think it's time to do that, and they're not going to get that in the draft, even if they don't think you don't think.
- [21:55]
B
I mean, Chase Reed's ready to play in the NHL, isn't he? Or no.
- [21:58]
C
We'll see. I would not be banking on any of the defensemen as we've sort of seen as Blackhawk fans. Even highly regarded defensemen take years to develop. I mean, I'm still very bullish on Levchinov and Renzel, and I like Kevin Korchinski more than probably anybody else in Chicago at this point. I think all three of them have bright futures. I just think they need more time to develop it. So Chase Reed may or may not start in the NHL for which every team drafts him. If I was betting on it, I would bet not. But even if he does, there's a lot of growing pains.
- [22:32]
B
So you think McKenna and Starberg are playing right away? Malhotra? Unclear.
- [22:40]
C
And then almost certainly not. I think the only two guys who are almost certain to start the year in the NHL are McKenna and Stanford. I think just about anybody else is more likely to start in college or the. Or the minors.
- [22:56]
B
Thank you very, very much as always, David. Incredibly helpful and informative to speak to you. Thank you so much. I'm. I. I'm depressed now about the Blackhawks draft after talking to you and seeing that we don't have any immediate help there, but we'll see. But the Hawks do need an anchor defenseman, and they need a great wing on the line with Bedard because Bedard at some point is going to get irritated as heck who doesn't have great wings with him. But they need both. They need to anchor on defense like a Duncan Keith, and they need a winger to go with Bedard. And so winding up three centers like, you know, Malhotra, Bedard and Frontel without stacking some line mates with these guys is. Doesn't seem like a recipe for success.
- [23:40]
C
I think that's definitely a big risk And I think they need to be active in the trade and free agency markets this year to bring in some, you know, veterans who can actually play.
- [23:49]
B
Let's hope so. David, you've depressed me, but I've enjoyed watching Dusty May leave. I'm sad about the spurs, but I'll get over it. And you know, the, the Giannis thing is fascinating to me, but it seems like you feel like the Bucks got much better trade capital than the Mavericks did. So always, I guess we'll be okay in Milwaukee.
- [24:08]
C
Yeah, I think that's the right message.
- [24:11]
B
All right. Thank you so much for joining us. It's always a fantastic pleasure. I really appreciate it. Thank you very much for joining the Becker business. Becker Private equ Again, sports with David Pivnick, one of the smartest person people I know. Thank you so much.
- [24:23]
C
Thanks for having me. Scott.
- [24:29]
A
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C
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