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Scott Becker
This is Scott Becker with the Becker Business and the Becker Private Equity Podcast. We're thrilled today to be joined by brilliant leader, strategist, talent evaluator and more. We're joined today by Holly Buckley who is the chair of the healthcare department at McGuire Woods. She has done an incredible job of building that department and growing it. A ton of different efforts between private equity driven healthcare, traditional healthcare, big hospitals and health systems as well as lots of different types of ancillary providers and businesses, whether in behavioral health and surgery centers and a whole number of other areas. Holly we're going to talk today about talent recruiting. How do you know when somebody's right fit? How you how do you know that they're not the right fit? And a lot more so let's talk for a second about. Let me start with this overview question. When you look at great talent, how much of that is skill versus energy versus drive, resilience and attitude? How much of it is just straight attitude and really showing up fully versus great intelligence or specific great skill sets? How do you look at that or think about that?
Holly Buckley
Yeah, I think it has to be both.
David Pivnick
But I think as long as there's a threshold level of skill and intelligence,
Holly Buckley
I think ultimately the, the other stuff,
David Pivnick
the intangibles, the drive, resilience, adaptability, emotional iq, those things go further and probably
Holly Buckley
predict more the ceiling.
David Pivnick
I think there's a bunch of super duper smart people who don't have as
Holly Buckley
much of the other stuff and they get sold out.
David Pivnick
I think earlier.
Holly Buckley
But I think if you've got a threshold level of skill and ability, but
David Pivnick
you have, you know, a mountain of the other things that can get you a lot further.
Scott Becker
Thank you. And talk to us for a second about so attitude, some level of intelligence, very, very important. But if you don't have the right attitude and the right personal skills, intelligence is going to get you that far. Really, you've got to have both. Right. I think that's, I think I couldn't agree more with you about that. When you first interview someone, what are the first traits you think about when you think about them being successful? Is it things that you Meet them in person? Is it things on paper? Is it some mix of those things? But what are the traits that lead you to think? We all know that hiring is ultimately an educated guess. So even if someone is great when you meet them, where they'll be a long term driven person and really want to take care of business or the course of years versus they show up well to begin with, but don't over time, it's very hard to predict those things. But are there a few traits that you look for that start to give you a hint as to whether somebody's going to be a success and whether it'll be a successful fit with the department?
David Pivnick
Yeah. And I mean, you've kind of indicated this through your question, but this is so hard. And if I had this stuff fully
Holly Buckley
figured out, I would probably be in
David Pivnick
a different spot that I am right now, because this is one of the hardest things about recruiting is cutting through to get to the source of the truth. And I've certainly made mistakes and I've made many of them in hiring and it's very, very hard not to. And I think we're constantly looking at how to, how to figure this out and what to look for and what to ask.
Holly Buckley
But I think some of the things
David Pivnick
that have worked well for me is making sure that you ask some technical questions in addition to just the general
Holly Buckley
questions and seeing where that goes.
David Pivnick
And I think some of the people who have done really, really well have answered the question both correctly on a technical level, but then have answered beyond that to get more into thoughts about the industry. And I think when you can, when you can validate that candidates both know the answer to some technical questions in a proficient way, but then they're also looking at industry trends and what's actually happening in the business world outside of, you know, just providing the legal answer,
Holly Buckley
I think that's a really good indicator
David Pivnick
because it shows that the person is interested in the market that they're operating. They're not just wanting to sit in their office and do their work, but they're looking at the broader context.
Holly Buckley
It shows that they're a student, that
David Pivnick
they're looking to learn things probably above and beyond what they technically need just
Holly Buckley
to do their job.
David Pivnick
And it shows an energy level in general. Like people are generally not low energy if they're looking for things above and beyond what they have to do.
Holly Buckley
And I think that kind of gets
David Pivnick
to the second area that I really look for and it's energy. It's. And so obviously I'm in the Legal market. I am a lawyer and I run a legal department. And, and this job is hard. It's not a 9 to 5, it's a lot more than that. And in order to be successful, you have to have the energy to really keep going. And there's the overused phrase of it's a marathon and not a sprint. But it couldn't be more true. It's you've got to keep going and you've got to keep going for a long time each day and week over a long time period through your career to really move the needle and you've got to have a lot of energy to do that. And you've got to be able to get up every day with a kind of fresh, renewed set of energy or at least most days to execute on that. So really looking at how energetic is
Holly Buckley
somebody, are they going to be able
David Pivnick
to keep up the pace?
Holly Buckley
And those people can then create momentum
David Pivnick
around them and motivate other people. And I think the final thing that I try to look at is self awareness and people who can actually identify strengths and weaknesses and know where they need to grow and recognize. I mean, I do not expect anyone, whether it's myself or someone 10 years
Holly Buckley
more senior to myself to feel like
David Pivnick
they are great at everything. That's just impossible. And so to be able to identify where they need support and additional resources or where they want to continue to grow professionally. And I think that really indicates that the person is coachable and that they are not overconfident. One of the most dangerous things in
Holly Buckley
the legal profession is folks who are
David Pivnick
overconfident because they're likely to get out ahead of their skis.
Holly Buckley
And so I really like to find
David Pivnick
someone who, I don't want people who are lacking in confidence, but that right balance of being confident enough to be able to counsel and work with clients and deliver messages, but who are also very aware of the areas that they need to grow.
Scott Becker
So so many things that you said I could not agree with you more on, particularly in this world of information overload, AI everything else. This ability for lawyers, professionals to be truly engaged and interested and really connect with clients and people in business is so important. You and I have seen over the years some great lawyers that we think of almost as back office lawyers. And because of that lacking in that desire or ability or want to really deeply connect with the industry, with people, they're somewhat limited in their careers. And you really have to have both the, that, that and that, that knowledge, that curiosity of what is going on. I think is so important. And that ability to want to deal with people, it's just so critical to everything we do today, particularly in the AI world, the information overload work. The second thing, which is this concept of, of you don't exactly know what you have until you have it. And it's an evolution with talent and growing with talent, I think is also completely right on as well. Couldn't agree more. Take us forward, Howie, to the question of how do you know or what, what errors do people make in hiring, if any? What do you think about that? What are mistakes that organizations can make when hiring leaders, building teams, hiring. What are some of your thoughts there?
Holly Buckley
Yeah, I mean, there's so many of
David Pivnick
them and they're so easy to make. And especially in a profession like law where people are trained to interview well, they know how to communicate and structure answers and project confidence and build a narrative.
Holly Buckley
So it's very easy to make mistakes in hiring.
David Pivnick
It's much harder to do it kind of consistently well. But I think in terms of mistakes
Holly Buckley
in hiring leaders, I think is looking for a leader who is the highest performing individual contributor. I think some of the time leaders
David Pivnick
and contributors are one and the same or they can be embodied within the same person. But I think that a great individual contributor does not often equal a great leader.
Holly Buckley
You've got to look at whether people
David Pivnick
can build teams and develop talent and are kind of unselfish with their time and can really do all the things that's needed in leadership. So I do think that's a frequent error is rewarding the high performer with a leadership role when that's just fully suited for them. I think another thing is probably overweighting pedigree. And I think, Scott, you and I have talked about this a lot where it's, it's, it feels good and it's often validated when you can hire the, the top performer.
Holly Buckley
And it's a much greater risk to
David Pivnick
hire someone who didn't have great grades
Holly Buckley
or has, you know, came from a bad education.
David Pivnick
You are taking more of a risk. And I think that there's a.
Holly Buckley
We've both seen several people come through
David Pivnick
our ranks who have been at the top of their class and have been incredibly successful and talented. But I think that there's a risk when you kind of outweigh that and you, and you take that as kind of the guarantee of success. And it often isn't. And there's often a lot of people who have done incredibly well who have a different background and came up slightly differently. So I Think it's important not to,
Holly Buckley
not to outweigh that.
Scott Becker
Couldn't agree more. You talked about in a moment ago, high motor energy level. How do you sort of use that? How important is that to professional success? That people actually have the energy to do what needs to be done and connect with lots of clients, take care of lots of clients, build a practice. How important is energy level and high motor?
David Pivnick
I mean it's, it's probably.
Holly Buckley
I don't want to say it's the
David Pivnick
most important because if you've got someone with a really high motor who's relatively incompetent and they can do a lot of bad things, so. But I do think that it's critically, critically important. I think that the people with a high motor who also have the other pieces, the, the competence and the good judgment, they can achieve so much and they do achieve so much and they
Holly Buckley
get so much out of it.
David Pivnick
They're kind of reward is achievement. And so we see. You and I have both seen many
Holly Buckley
of our colleagues who have this amazing
David Pivnick
behind motor and the amount of ground they can cover and cover well and cover in a way when they're fully engaged with clients is just incredible. So I do think it is, it is one of the most important factors is kind of a high motor, high energy and ability to really just kind of keep going.
Scott Becker
No, I couldn't agree more. And it's obviously got to be mixed with great intelligence, great balance, great centeredness, but, but very hard to be very successful without a lot of energy in a high motor. I mean.
Holly Buckley
Correct, Absolutely.
David Pivnick
Maybe there's some formula of being so incredibly smart that each small thing you do moves the needle so much that having high energy doesn't matter. But I've yet to see that.
Holly Buckley
So I think, I think it's just
Scott Becker
so important when you talk about that somebody that's so smart that doesn't have to be that high of motor. Are you thinking about, I mean, David Pivnick? He has a good motor though, doesn't he?
David Pivnick
He does. He has a very good motor.
Holly Buckley
He, he works incredibly hard and is incredibly efficient.
David Pivnick
So I, I don't, I was not thinking about him.
Scott Becker
You know, I heard you say he works incredibly hard and incredibly efficient and it seemed that that did not point out there was nothing in there about intellect or high brights. So I take it the thought is. And David doesn't work in your department, so you don't have to evaluate him year and year out, but hard working a. Efficient a. I guess I'll take the failure to state anything about his intelligence as information in and of itself. Is that a fair statement?
David Pivnick
It's not. I mean, and I can say this because I don't believe he will listen
Holly Buckley
to my podcast, but the efficiency comment
David Pivnick
is really a reflection of his intelligence and judgment in that he can take
Holly Buckley
a very complicated issue and very, very
David Pivnick
quickly get to the answer in a very efficient way because he is that smart and has the best judgment in general. There is no litigator I prefer to work with.
Holly Buckley
So he is a very smart and talented person.
Scott Becker
He's very smart and talented. Not necessarily brilliant brilliant, but very, very smart and very talented. In all seriousness, Holly, what a pleasure to visit with you always. You've done an incredible job of growing the healthcare department and the private equity practice at McGuire Woods. You're literally one of a kind. Incredible mode, incredible personal skills, incredible intelligence. Really, really brilliant. Brilliant. David is bright too. Thank you so much for joining us today on the Becker Business and the Becker Private Equity Podcast. For for those that are listening, I hope that you take our comments and jest. Actually, David Pivnick and Holly Buckley are brilliant, brilliant lawyers and people. Thank you so much for joining us.
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Becker Private Equity & Business Podcast
Host: Scott Becker
Guest: Holly Buckley, Chair, Healthcare Department, McGuireWoods LLP
Date: May 15, 2026
In this episode, Scott Becker sits down with Holly Buckley, Chair of the Healthcare Department at McGuireWoods, for a deep dive into the art and nuances of building high-performing teams within the legal and private equity-driven healthcare space. The discussion focuses on what makes talent successful, the interview and hiring process, the significance of energy, drive, and resilience, and frequent mistakes organizations make when assembling leadership teams.
On Intangibles Predicting Success:
On Self-Awareness:
On Top Performers as Leaders:
On Pedigree:
On Sustained Energy:
For listeners seeking to improve their hiring strategies and team performance, Holly Buckley offers a candid, insightful look into what truly drives long-term success in competitive, high-growth environments.