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Becker Private Equity & Business Podcast
Sports, Star Power, and Competition with David Pivnick of McGuireWoods LLP 6-19-25
00:17:55
In this episode, David Pivnick, Partner at McGuireWoods LLP, joins Scott Becker to discuss the growing influence of Caitlin Clark in the WNBA, the league’s internal tensions, and the importance of protecting star players.
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- [00:00]
Richard Karn
Hi, I'm Richard Karn and you may have seen me on TV talking about the world's number one expandable garden hose. Well, the brand new Pocket hose Copperhead with Pocket Pivot is here and it's a total game changer. Old fashioned hoses get kinks and creases at the spigot, but the Copperhead's pocket pivot swivels 360 degrees for full water flow and freedom to water with ease all around your home. When you're all done, this rust proof anti burst hose shrinks back down to pocket size for effortless handling and tidy storage. Plus your super light and ultra durable pocket hose Copperhead is backed with a 10 year warranty. What could be better than that? I'll tell you what an exciting exclusive offer just for you for a limited time you can get a free pocket pivot and their 10 pattern sprayer with the purchase of any size Copperhead hose. Just text water to 64,000. That's water to 64,000 for your two free gifts with purchase W A T E R to 64,000. By texting 64,000 you agree to receive recurring automated marketing messages from Pocket Hose. Message and data rates may apply. No purchase required. Terms apply. Available at pocket hose.com terms this is.
- [01:01]
Scott Becker
Scott Becker with the Becker Private Equity and Business podcast. I'm joined today by one of the brightest people I get to visit with, David Pivnick. David's a partner, McGuire woods heads up difficult white collar litigation, often in the healthcare sector, often for private equity funds. A brilliant, brilliant person. We usually use this time not so much to talk about the legal world or business litigation, but more to talk about things that are top of mind for us. Today we're going to talk about the wnba, the NBA, NHL and a lot more. I guess I'll start with. And you would teed this up the WNBA with and without Caitlin Clark. So Caitlin Clark was out for a couple weeks. Rankings literally went back to where they were. TV ratings went back to where they were a few years ago before Caitlin Clark was in the league. She gets back and it almost feels like there's a posse first game or one of her first game is back where the other team is just attacking her. What do you make of all this? Does she have that big a target on her shoulders because the fans love her so much or what, what drives that? Or am I overreacting to that?
- [02:13]
David Pivnick
Well Scott, it's a great question. So first of all, I don't think it's, it's overreacting. And I, I think after last night's game against the Connecticut sun, it's hard for anyone to argue with a straight face that there isn't a chip on the shoulder of a lot of the players, the more established players, longer tenured players in the WNBA relative to Caitlin Clark. And I think it's interesting because a lot of the media attention and certainly a lot of the chitchat about it on, on Twitter, Slash X is about Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese and the racial dynamics. But last night's issues really involved J.C. shelton and Marina Mabry, which takes the race element out of it. It makes it clear this is really animosity towards Caitlin Clark. And so I can't speak to it with precision because I haven't talked to the various players. I don't profess to know them, I don't know them. But it sure seems to be like a lot of the women in the league who are truly, you know, obviously exceptionally gifted athletes, professional basketball players that have been doing it for a long time. There seems to be some level of resentment that the league didn't get a lot of attention or love revenue, fan base, you name it, while they were performing. And they're unquestionably terrific at their craft as well. And then Caitlin Clark comes along and starts doing it a little bit differently and I think fairly to say a little bit better. And all of a sudden the attention is there and I think there's certainly a level of jealousy that that has come up and it's just hard to ignore where virtually every game there's a cheap shot taken at Caitlin Clark. She certainly, I think, engages in some trash talk, which probably doesn't help, but I don't think that's atypical in basketball and I don't think it should be terribly surprising. And I think the reactions and the number, number of flavored fouls and frankly, cheap shots, I mean, Marina Mavery hitting her directly from behind yesterday was just a cheap shot. There's no different way to put it. And so I think it reflects badly on the league. And I think it's unfortunate because there's so many stars in the WNBA and folks who are truly exceptional athletes where ideally they'd all look at this as more eyeballs on the sport, more fans of the seat, more people watching in television and, and it providing a great opportunity for folks like Wilson in Las Vegas or Stewart in New York to get that attention and to be able to capitalize on more people watching their sport and seeing how great they are, that it's not just Caitlin Clark. So I'm hoping that's where it eventually settles in and that it does just grow. The sport of women's basketball, which I think would be good for the whole league, but it's starting to become curious and unfortunate and that there's so much attention, you know, not being, you know, not being placed like Caitlin Clark hitting seven threes and scoring 30 points with nine rebounds and eight assists or I think that was something, what it was on Saturday, beating the undefeated New York Liberty or crushing Connecticut yesterday to reach the finals of the Commissioners cup, whatever that is. But instead, and I think that's sort of like the NBA's in season tournament, which is also kind of not a real thing. But all the same, Caitlin Clark in Indiana are advancing and people aren't talking about that. They're talking about cheap shots behind the play, which is truly unfortunate when the sport should be growing.
- [05:40]
Scott Becker
Now she and there's so many pieces this I'll make, I'll make one comment and I'll move on to a real discussion in this is that, for example, you do a lot of trash talking and maybe the main difference in you and Caitlin Clark is when you do a lot of trash talking, no one is taking physical, cheap shots at you. Why do you think there's that great distinction between your trash talking and the trash talking of Caitlin Clark?
- [06:06]
David Pivnick
I think just like her ability to play the game of basketball, she must just be better at it than I am. What can I say? Tip of the cap. I'll give credit where it's due. Caitlyn's great at a lot of things.
- [06:15]
Scott Becker
I think that's a beautiful thing. And I know that sometimes you're, you, you, you come from a very, very supportive family. And so I don't want it to be lost on them or anybody else. And for our audience, David was raised with a lot of positive affirmation and a lot of love. And so don't worry about him not having that kind of self confidence. And if he doesn't, it's not because of his parents fault. They did a fantastic job in raising him and giving him unconditionally constructive love. So David, it's not because you're not talented that you don't get hit back. It's that maybe you're more around, more general, nicer people. You are talented. You are good enough. You are fantastic. So, so another question there though I.
- [06:58]
David Pivnick
Do, I do appreciate the Stuart Smalley affirmations there. And I'm sure somewhere my wife, if she actually listened to These podcasts would be thinking she's the one beating that out of me. But my parents will take the credit.
- [07:11]
Scott Becker
That you're giving them 100% and well done. I guess the next question for you is with, with the Caitlin Clark. She is the golden goose. I mean she is the golden, the wnba. It's unbelievable what happens when she comes to a town. They sell out. I've never had a speaker that we have at our conferences, the Beckers Healthcare conference where people are more excited to see her. We've got her, Wayne Gretzky, Jack Nicklaus speaking this fall. And people are really excited about all of them, but including Caitlin Clark, who just people rave about. So let me ask you this question. So you talk about this being a short term or longer term problem. Short term. She gets hurt. It hurts income. Maybe not immediately, but not till the next TV contract, the next WNBA thing, because I don't think you're splitting revenues every day, but sooner or later it has a very negative impact on people. And just the whole value of the wnba, but similar to, I guess, these other players, I see it at a big law firm setting, a big consulting firm, a big accounting firm. You've got a major rainmaker or major driver of business or somebody that builds a crazy amount of hours and that is in the interest of the firm that you have those major rainmakers that bring in that kind of money. But there will be people that are overwhelmingly just jealous of those people and dislike them. And how do you balance those things? That self interest that says we need a player of this caliber because it brings all the boats up against the emotional sort of selfishness of people being like. Or jealousy of self interest versus jealousy. How do you sort of measure those types of things? The self interest economically is we need around. The jealousy is I don't want her around and I'd rather not do as well and not have her around. How do you sort of deal with that?
- [08:57]
David Pivnick
The first thing is it's demonstrable even in small sample sizes that may not hit the players yet, but it shows the impact. And you only need to look at the June 7 game in Chicago, Indiana fever versus the Chicago Sky. That game was supposed to take place, you know, where the sky normally play. And they moved at the United center because of Caitlin Clark. And then when Caitlin Clark was hurt, I mean that was a sold out game at the United center and was a hot ticket on a Saturday night. And then when Caitlin Clark got hurt, people were giving away tickets for $3 upstairs at the United center on Snub up, because without Caitlin Clark playing, it was no longer an interesting game or an interesting draw. And I think you only need to look no further than that one game. It's a microcosm of the significant impact. And that's not a shot at Angel Reese or, you know, Corderos or the other players on the sky who I think are building a good young team. And certainly Angel Reese is also one of the more controversial, yes, but one of the more compelling and, you know, significant social media aware presences in the league. She also has a massive following, but it doesn't draw necessarily the same way Caitlin Clark does as reflected in the Sky's typical attendance number. So to your question about how to handle it, I mean, my view is simple. First of all, internally, the league needs to get their arms around the messaging and make it clear that this is very much, as you alluded to, a situation where the rising tide lifts all boats. I mean, this is a place where the higher the league's revenues, the more these players are all going to get paid. So Caitlin Clark, whether they like her or not, is ultimately going to make all of them wealthier. And so they need to rally around her and recognize that her getting hurt or just deciding to hell with this, I'd rather go play elsewhere. Because the WNBA salary is a very, very small portion of Caitlin Clark's overall earnings. I mean, very, very small. She could play overseas, she could play in a league like unrivaled. She could go with Dave Portnoy at barstool and create her own women's league and make more money than she's making in the wnba. Yeah.
- [11:04]
Scott Becker
No, let me ask you a question about this because I think you're right on. Let me ask you. Years ago, the NFL started to get hyper protective of quarterbacks in a way that people used to say, like, oh my God, the quarterbacks were skirts. They should do this, they should do that. But obviously in hindsight, ultimately it was the right decision. Because your franchise player goes out, it ruins the season for that fan base. They're less interested. There's so many implications. Do you have to get to the same place as WNBA where people realize, what the heck this is the franchise. You just, you, you, you, you, you have to like somebody's going to be flagrant. I remember the old days of Rudy Tomjanovitz and Kermit Washington and one of them hitting the other and being, you know, out of the league for the year. At what point do you sort of say we need to do what the NFL's done with with quarterbacks to protect not just her, but just to protect the decency of the league.
- [12:00]
David Pivnick
Yeah, I mean, look, first of all, I would never have said such a inappropriate thing about quarterbacks. And I know you were just using that as, you know, an allusion to what others who are less sophisticated than you might have said. But I think it's a fair point that you got to protect the people, the faces of the league who are making the league money. And so I think the league has to deliver that message in internal communications. I think if the league is smart about it, it'll show those numbers financially. Laying out here's what the projections look like, here's what the growth Caitlin Clark is providing looks like financially. Here's how it will impact your all pocketbook. And then I think there needs to be further messages like maybe not getting ejected last night where the announcers on the air were saying, you know, quote, I can't, I can't see any way this doesn't lead to an ejection. And then she wasn't ejected. I, you know, that was, that was about as obvious an ejection as you could see in basketball. And so if these things continue, it doesn't have to be last night incident. If the, if the cheap shots continue, the stuff that's not basketball, the league's going to have to suspend players and send a real message. And you know, you raised the parallel of the law firm world. And you know, I'll say this, speaking for myself, I can't speak for everybody else, but I've never once looked at comp related information. I mean this truly, I've never once looked at it and thought about the people who are doing incredibly well and thought I can't believe that or how could they get so much money? Because I recognize fully what you said, which is they're helping all of us make a ton of money. And so that that's never one space me. If anything, my view is like shoot, pay them more because they're making everybody else do better. It's folks that, that are not productive and are not generating the revenues where I might look and say what, what gives no matter where they are relative to others because they're not productive. But I think getting people past the sort of base emotional jealousy into a recognition of the people who are really successful, productive anchors of the business are making all of us more money no matter how much they get paid. So don't worry about their comp. Worry about everyone else and doing your own part to help the business. I think that will be incredibly important. And it's something that the league is going to have to really deliver that message, you know, in a meaningful way or they're going to lose the benefit that they currently have in front of them.
- [14:28]
Scott Becker
No, I think that's right. And so let's turn to another subject. I am truly, you know, my core is watching the wnba because that's just how I am and who I am. But, but David, let me ask you a quick question. It's been very exciting. NHL playoff, Stanley cup, great NBA stuff between Oklahoma City Thunder and Indiana Pacers. I don't follow that stuff. I just follow the wnba. But can you tell us any. Hey, hey, hey. Can you give us any update on, on those Edmonton Oilers, Conor McDavid, another year without a cup of, you know, he's nicknamed McJesus, but not getting there over the line, not this year. Any comments there? Any comments on the Pacers, Oklahoma City Thunder?
- [15:14]
David Pivnick
Yeah, I mean, look, starting with hockey, just as a general statement, we talked about this a month ago. Truly an outstanding postseason overall. Like lots of good hockey, lots of overtime games, the vast majority of the series were incredibly competitive and compelling. The Florida Panthers and there's a lot of guys on that team I don't particularly care for. But as a team, I mean a really cohesive, deep, talented unit that just knows how to turn it up when it matters. And conversely, where I would have loved to see McDavid get a cup, that really is still a team in Edmonton that has no depth at all. And once Matt Kyman went down, they really were left with a couple of elite weapons in McDavid and Draisaitl and very little else. And some truly baffling play in net like Stuart Skinner is getting, you know, lambasted everywhere. And certainly the third goal he gave up last night was just atrocious. I mean a truly horrific, horrific goal that never should have happened if he played the puck well. But when he was on in these playoffs, he was single handedly winning the Oilers multiple games. So he's going to take the brunt of the blame. But the lack of depth and the inability to really compete on the third and fourth lines and defensively in their own end is what did in the Oilers. And McDavid ultimately couldn't just carry them himself, particularly where the defensive focus was on him. So I think it was a great postseason. I'm really interested to see what the Blackhawks are going to do this year. I, I keep reading that they're looking to potentially trade the third pick and that they're not looking to make a big splash in free agency. Both of which I think would be a mistake. I think they should keep the third pick and I think they should be active in free agency. We have a lot of cap space and I think it's time to start moving upwards. But I'll be fascinated to see what, what they do and in the NBA, you know, I'm, I'm very, very happy to see, you know, Canadian content on both sides of the finals with the Pacers and Thunder. I think it would be great to see SGA get a title. I think the Thunder are a frankly scary young team that is going to be there shoot for the next decade. I mean, they've got just a wealth of young talent and a wealth of picks and it's incredibly intimidating for the rest of the league. But they're an excellent team and the Pacers have been fun to watch and I had some money on them placed a while ago to win the title, which was looking really good up until their collapse on Friday night. But again, pretty fun postseason. And I think the Pacers, you know, their future is less bright than Oklahoma City's, but also pretty bright. But again, it's going to be an interesting off season because I think there's a lot of teams in the NBA that recognize that as much as they might like their current setup, it's just not good enough to get the job done and win a title with a juggernaut like Oklahoma City out there. So it'll be fun to see how other teams pivot to try and compete with that going forward.
- [18:13]
Scott Becker
Well, and as always, sometimes it's easier to get to the, to the top than to stay on the top. So we'll see if it, if, if it goes as you say for the Thunder or if it's like it often is, very hard to keep it all together and keep moving all in the right direction. David, I want to thank you as always for joining us today on the Becker Private Equity Business Podcast. It is remarkable how well you turned out given what your fantastic mom and dad had to work with. They did a yeoman's job with you. Thank you for joining us today.
- [18:51]
David Pivnick
Appreciate it. Thanks for having me on, Scott.
- [18:55]
Richard Karn
Hi, I'm Richard Karn and you may have seen me on TV talking about the world's number one expandable garden hose. Well, the brand new pocket hose copperhead with pocket pivot is here and it's a total game changer. Old fashioned hoses get kinks and creases at the spigot, but the Copperhead's pocket pivot swivels 360 degrees for full water flow and freedom to water with ease all around your home. When you're all done, this rust proof anti burst hose shrinks back down to pocket size for effortless handling and tidy storage. Plus your super light and ultra durable pocket hose. Copperhead is backed with a 10 year warranty. What could be better than that? I'll tell you what. An exciting radio exclusive offer just for you for a limited time. You can get a free pocket pivot and their 10 pattern sprayer with the purchase of any size Copperhead hose. Just text water to 64,000. That's water to 64,000 for your two free gifts with purchase W A T E R to 64,000. By texting 64,000, you agree to receive recurring automated marketing messages from Pocket host. Message and data rates may apply. No purchase required. Terms apply. Available at pockethost.com terms.