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[00:01]
A
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[00:30]
B
This is Scott Becker with the Becker Business and Becker Private Equity Podcast. This next recording is a summit, the CEO summit. This CEO summit had four panels, 14 different guests. Subjects like how CEOs win building great businesses, the new CEO agenda from Momentum to scale, and then a short portion at the end by myself on building great businesses. We hope you enjoy this greatly. Again, this is the CEO Summit. This entire effort is about a two and a half hour recording. We hope you enjoy part or all of it. We think the CEOs on it were fantastic. Thank you so much for listening. So our first panel, we've got three fantastic panelists. Micheline Davis, who is the CEO of National Medical Fellowships. Micheline's remarkable leader. We'll get a chance to hear what she does. I've known her for more than a decade and an incredible leader. Second, we've got Mark Williams. Mark is the CEO of a private equity funded company called Magna Legal and he'll tell us the exact right. I've also known Mark for a long time. Really bright, really principled leader and excited to hear from him. Third, we have Tom Malin and again like Micheline and Mark, I've had the pleasure of working with Tom for a long time. He's the founder of a company called Regent Surgical Health which is an incredible successful ambulatory surgery center company in the healthcare space. He then went on to be CEO of Perpetuate Capital. He does a lot of different, different interesting things. I know. Mark went to U of I with myself. Tom went to Harvard Business School. Gifted, gifted person. We're so excited to have each of you here. Tom, let me ask you to take a moment, introduce yourself, tell us about your organization and I'll ask you Mark and Michelin just to start there. A quick introduction and a quick oversight of your organization.
[02:37]
C
Thanks Scott. I'm Tom Mallon. I'm a Managing partner of Perpetuate Capital. We're in the business of facilitating and financing ESOPs for business owners who want to maintain the culture and the values of their business past their retirement time. We also Raise funds and provide an opportunity for investors to get a good return on their capital, plus some inflation protection and hopefully in the process help employees retire much better off than if they were just 401k beneficiaries.
[03:23]
B
And Tom, give us a moment on your business background. What you do today is run, perpetuate capital, help people do ESOPs, invest in those and so forth. Give us just 30 seconds, 60 seconds on your business background which has been extraordinary.
[03:37]
C
We started Region Surgical Health as Scott mentioned, back in 2001. Scott and I have had the pleasure of working together since 95, so it's been a wonderful relationship and he's been a great advisor all those years. We ran built Region surgical health for 15 years and then tried to figure out what to do with it because we had several partners who needed to retire. We ended up converting it to an esop and it was truly one of the best things that happened in my professional career. We ran it as an ESOP for four and a half years, had a unsolicited offer to purchase it at a much higher price. Employees were happy, investors were happy and management was happy. So that's why I decided to spend the rest of my career helping other business owners have successful exits.
[04:34]
B
Thank you so much. Mark, you've had an extraordinary leadership career with private equity funded companies. Take a moment and introduce yourself and tell us about what you do and what Magna does.
[04:44]
D
Yeah. So first of all, Scott, I gotta say I'm grateful to be here. I don't want to date either of us, but I looked up to Scott as an esteemed upperclassman in the late 80s and a few years ago. So, you know, honored to be here with him today, truly. So thank you for having me, Scott. And with, with our other panelists. So yeah. Mark Williams spent about half my career as a partner or as a lawyer partner at a large global law firm. I was an M and a corporate partner at Hart, but spent eight, nine years of my career overseas, different places, Asia, China for four years, the Middle east, other places, and then decided that I liked running businesses better, thought maybe I was a little better at it. And now for the last 17 years or so, it's been a long time. I've been leading private equity backed legal support services, legal technology companies in the space and have had a number of exits in that in that segment, joined Magna legal services in 2019. They had the first private equity investment by CIVC partners in 2018. I joined in 2019. Odyssey Investment Partners took a controlling stake in 2022. We have about 30 offices around the country, about 1500 employees, thousands of 1099s. And again, we support the legal industry with technology and services in court reporting, deposition services, records retrieval, jury and trial consulting. I think we're the largest company in that. In the country. Service of process and investigations.
[06:42]
B
And Mark, what's it been like? Because you have in the audience a whole bunch of people. Some have worked with private equity, some have not. You and Barry Tanner, who's on as well a little bit later today, worked with several different private equity funds and any sense of that, because people, there's so much noise out there about working with private equity.
[07:00]
E
Hard.
[07:00]
B
Is it easy? Are they impossible? Are they not? Give us just a moment on working with private equity as an investor or sponsoring your company.
[07:07]
D
Well, the just a moment part might be hard, Scott, but I'll do my best to keep it short. Yeah, I mean, I think it's all about alignment. Right. So I've been with, I think over time, seven different private equity funds. I was CEO of a company called Crow on Track, that was chapter 11. So that was owned by distressed companies that invested in distressed equity. You know, Magna is a growth story. We've done 20 acquisitions. And either way, I think it's all about alignment with your, with your investors, with your private equity, with your lenders in the private equity space. There's certainly a lot of, you know, dotting your I's, crossing, crossing your T's, you know, institutional investment as a different part to the ecosystem. But I, I think if you have the right aligned partners, which I have had every step, I'm very fortunate every step of the way. It's been, it's been strong alignment. It can be a great ecosystem to provide not only capital to fund investments and acquisitions, but also as a thought partner and a strategy partner. So I, I think it's a terrific ecosystem. Maybe not for everybody, but again, it's all about the right partner and the right, right alignment.
[08:23]
B
Thank you. I think. Very well stated, Micheline. You've had this extraordinary career. One of the most inspiring people I get to work with. Talk a little bit about what you do in national medical fellowships.
[08:34]
E
Scott, thank you. It is always good to be with you in community, no matter whether or not that community is in person or virtual. So I'm delighted to be here with both Mark and Tom. I have the fortunate opportunity to, I call myself the chief servant officer, but to serve as the president and CEO of National Medical Fellowships, an organization that for the last 80 years has been advancing the issue of addressing the physician shortage that this country is now actually facing and already in the midst of. And so with over the last 80 years, NMAP has done that by ensuring that they provide financial support, professional development and then additional training and certification for individuals once they have graduated from medical school and gone on to become practicing physicians. We train them to then turn around and become emerging investigators in clinical trials research.
[09:22]
B
And talk a little bit about you've got the 80th anniversary event coming up. Give us a sense of how many students national medical fellowships helps each year. Just give us a sense of that.
[09:35]
E
Well, I will tell you, over the last 80 years we have given out some $50 million to over 35,000 students. On an annual basis we can do upwards of 5,000 students. And so it's been just really an incredibly impactful opportunity. Right. The the greatest segment of capital is our human capital. And so by doing this I am making certain that there are individuals who will be there to take care of you, Scott, Tom, Mark and all of
[10:02]
B
our employees and talk for a second. I'm asking each of you this question for CEOs trying to build enduring companies, sort of. And you've done this great job of building national medical fellowships. I know in the last year also received a large, large grant that has really helped the future of it. And you've also done a great job of structuring the team at NMF. The best advice for founders, CEOs trying to build enduring institutions. You've got the different situation here of being a not for profit leader. Mark and Tom are for profit leaders. But at the end of the day, so much of the building and what you're trying to do is the same. Talk about a little bit of advice to people trying to build enduring institutions and how you think about that. Micheline and then Mark and Tom will ask you the same question.
[10:56]
E
So thank you so much for that question. I think it's undoubtedly worthy and as you know, I come out of both large scale academic medicine, health care and then government before that. And what I will say to you is that I once heard someone give really great advice from a stage and that was to hire slowly but to fire quickly. And the reason and the rationale for that is that truth be told, one of the most important elements that we have in building any infrastructure for sustainability of any organization for profit, not for profit doesn't matter is really right that the culture that you are building and your institution and truth be told that the CEO, the best culture that you're ever going to have is Only as good as the worst behavior that you are willing to tolerate, right? And so we really have to make certain that we are looking at toxicity in the way in which it affects the mental health and well being of all of the members on your team. Oftentimes, Scott, we have an individual who may be really talented, but if that individual does not also practice those kind of soft skills that help to propel the organization forward as a whole, then we really need to make certain that we are evalu the actual impact on the organization, on its people and ultimately its bottom line.
[12:13]
B
And how do you balance that, that great contributor with behavior to make sure you've got the right balance of people because you need those great contributors, but you can't tolerate awful behavior. How do you try and balance that? Can you coach that? Or is it some point where you just have to sacrifice one for the other and get rid of the person who's just a bad behavior person?
[12:34]
E
Listen, I will tell you this. I think that it is all about the evaluative process, right? So, so literally I believe that, that there's always an opportunity to cure. However, individuals have a choice, right, to elect whether or not to be coachable or not. And so the question ultimately is always, is this person salvageable? Right? Can we in fact utilize an opportunity to bring to their attention? Sometimes individuals are unwitting, unknowing about their behavior and the way in which they show up in the world. Do we have an opportunity to bring this to their the forefront of their frontal lobe? And will they in fact welcome a chance to literally turn that around? Some people will say, you know, I hadn't realized the ultimate effect of that. I didn't realize how I was showing up in the world. Because every single individual that is working under your mantle is an extension. They are an agent of U.S. principle. And so it really is how do you want to show up in the world? And so I think that we ascent, we initially, we try to address it and then quite frankly, if we found out that the person is not right, it's not salvageable, they're not malleable, they're not educable, then you wish them well and you let them go have a great opportunity to be successful somewhere else.
[13:46]
B
Thank you so much. I love that and so much about building great organizations is great people and also what you'll tolerate in people and their behavior. Mark, talk a little bit about when you think about building great organizations. And you've done this incredible job of building Magna and before that building other companies, you had this critical track record, what advice would you give to founders, to CEOs, to entrepreneurs about what works? What are a couple core things people should be thinking about?
[14:14]
D
Yeah, so I certainly agree with Micheline about a focus on culture and values and people and you know, one toxic person can really bring down a culture. So yeah, I mean, I agree with that. Invest in your people, they are your greatest competitive advantage. And you know, higher, slow fire, fast and then build systems and processes that allow the business to scale. A lot of what I've done the last, you know, 15 years particularly has been taking, you know, family run businesses or smaller businesses and then scaling them up, private equity owned. So having the system and processes to scale is critical with, with the right people, you know, today particularly you got to be focused on technology, cannot be left behind in technology. So if you don't have one eye focused on technology, I think you're probably in trouble. Which means different things for different people. But it is critical. And part of that is listening to your clients, listening to their needs, adapting to their needs, which again is changing fast. I think with technology, with artificial intelligence, you know, I think again as Micheline stated, you know, leading with integrity and consistency, you know, culture starts at the top. So mission, vision, values, I'm a big believer in that and activating them, they can't just be a piece of paper. But having strong mission, vision, values, making people understanding them and then making it real within the culture and then finally, you know, execution. I mean all this goes for not if you're not focused on executing on your strategy and executing on your mission, vision, values.
[16:03]
B
And Mark, let me ask you a question because I think currently at Magna you mentioned, I think thousands of ultimately between employees and contractors, many in the audience have managed organizations with thousands and some have managed organizations with 10 to 100 or less. Talk a little bit about how management has changed for you or how you've had a change as you've grown to manage much larger organizations than you might have earlier in your career. How does that change? How does that change you as a manager and how you have to approach things?
[16:35]
D
Yeah, I mean there are two categories of topics that really come to my mind. One is just the change in the world, especially in the post Covid technology fueled world, which is we do so much virtual today and yeah, we have thousands of people around the country. So even if that was not the case, I couldn't go see all of them and be with them on a regular basis. So that's a challenge. You can't be with People all the time. But how do we use zoom? I mean, a great example is this, this, you know, what we're doing today, this summit that we're doing, and it feels great. Right? But how do we effectively use tech technology to reach as many of our employees and clients as possible, and then the other, and it goes back to systems, process, culture, mission, vision, values. How do we replicate it? Right? How do we make sure that second level, third level, fourth level leadership are living those values, enforcing those values, communicating, helping create the culture one wants to create. And that's hard to do at scale. It is hard, and it is hard to balance, you know, culture with bureaucracy. And you need rules and process and system, but how do you not lean so deeply into that that you lose your heart and lose the culture and lose the values and lose that human touch? So, Scott? Yeah, it's a great question. I wish I had a magic answer, but it's all that.
[18:09]
B
But I love your point on, as you get larger and larger, how do you mix systems with maintaining that human touch and the right culture? And sometimes it's much easier to do that in an organization of 80 to 100, where people, you could really be on the same page with everybody. Be very careful about every hire. You get to thousands and you see some organizations that really live that, where you really feel the culture per permeates the organization and others it doesn't. And, and I think that's a fantastic sort of perspective on it. Tom, let me ask you the same question. I'm gonna come back to each of you in a moment with a question from one of the, one of the attendees. Tom, best Advice for founders, CEOs trying to build enduring companies. You built a highly successful surgery center company that had, by the time it sold dozens of locations, dozens of partners. How do you build that? And how hands on do you have to be? What advice do you have for founders that are trying to build sustainable organizations?
[19:09]
C
Well, you can't be so hands on that you're doing everything. So a lot of problems in companies you can identify by just looking in the mirror as the CEO, and the things that you'll allow, the things that you'll empower in health care, everybody takes care of everybody else. Well, we got to the point where my COO and I were running each other. We were running ragged. And we looked at each other and said, we're running ragged because other people aren't doing their jobs and we're having to jump in and fix it. A very wise person once told me again, Michelina's fire quickly. It's easier to change a person than change a person. Scott Becker, have you heard that before? Has that come out of your mouth?
[19:58]
B
It came out of my mouth because we had a managing partner, the law firm that used to say that, that it's very hard to change someone, that it's easier to change out the person than change a person, though you certainly want to try. But that's very hard to change people.
[20:11]
C
That, but you have to deal with reality. And if the person's person doesn't have the values, doesn't have the discipline. A CEO can't demand discipline in his organization if he always shows up late to meeting. Just a little thing, you know, so, you know, my, my, I'm a very big proponent of values and discipline in an organization and having people do their jobs. And if they don't want to do their jobs, have them. I have the this is America speech with them. Hey, this is, you know, this is America. Everybody has the right to pursue their own happiness. We're going to figure out how you can go someplace else and be happy because we're not happy here and you're not happy here. That's usually the case.
[20:55]
B
So let me ask each of you this question, just 30 seconds to a minute each. Michelin I'll start with you and then we're going to come back to the reader, to the listener question. What are you most excited about currently in what you're doing? What are you most excited about currently? And then Mark and Tom will ask you the same question. Michelle?
[21:15]
E
Thank you, Scott. I really am excited about you mentioned earlier that we are celebrating our 80th anniversary as a really unique opportunity to to call back to all of the students over the years who are now practicing positions, some of whom are actually retired, and really call them back into community one with another. So I'm excited about the intentional community, but I'm excited for the next generation of health care leader. I'm excited that they will have the knowledge, experience, the wisdom of those who have already been in practice and been in the profession and that we are going to be able to have a chance to layer that on with them, what healthcare of tomorrow is going to be right? And so all of that experience will be laid on top of innovation and transformation and really what we have the chance to cultivate as healthcare is continuing to evolve. And so that actually excites me.
[22:05]
B
Could you take one moment, if you're okay with it, on the historic mission of nmf and today I know it's really focused on helping underprivileged people become. Doctors excel as physicians excel as clinicians. Give us a moment on the historical mission and how much has been done for that mission.
[22:22]
E
For sure. Thank you. My friend Willie will tell you you heard me mention the fact that it's our 80th anniversary. We were founded in 1946 at a time when, quite frankly, segregation made it really difficult for lots of individuals who were absolutely brilliant, but in different zip codes and different aspects of the country to literally have access to the opportunity to become a physician. And so over the course of that time, literally, NMF was the vehicle that provided a chance for those who were kept out of certain systems to literally obtain the education that their brilliance was already ready to receive. And so as a result of that, every U.S. surgeon general who happens to have been of an underrepresented demographic in medicine is literally an NMF alum. We have created astronauts and given them to the world because of the double down focus and making certain that those who were prevented from having access to opportunity were given a chance to have that access so that their brilliance would have that opportunity.
[23:23]
B
Thank you. We do something with Michelin every single day. We serve on a board. We're huge fans of what NMF does. The both historical mission, the current mission, and Michelin is a remarkably inspiring leader. Mark, take a second on what you're most focused on today. Is it growth, is it execution, is it trying to embed technology? Everything you do. Where is the biggest focus today? Mark?
[23:46]
D
Yeah, I, I mean, it's all that. I'm really excited about continuing to accelerate our growth through acquisitions. I think we just closed our 20th acquisition this week. And you know, that brings more talent, more services, strengthening our position. So excited to continue that journey again. Private equity helps fuel that from capital perspective and a partnership perspective. Technology. I said it earlier, we're investing a lot in infusing AI into our products, into our services, into our workflow. That's a critical part of what we need to get right. We need to execute on it and enhancing the way work gets done. And I'll tie this just quickly, Scott, to the last subject, which is as we progress through greater technology and acquisitions and growth, I need to always remember what got you here won't get you there. Right. So your question, about 30 people, 300 people, 3,000 people. I think that oftentimes there's a mistake made that people look and say, well, the way they were doing it or we were doing it before was wrong. I don't think that's the right way to look at it. I think it might have been the right way at that time, but things have now changed. You're bigger, you're larger, there's more technology. So how do you scale? How do you grow? What got you here won't get you there. You need to adapt and change to the circumstances.
[25:20]
B
Thank you so much. Tom. I'm asking you the same question. Now. We've got a handful of listener questions I'm going to try to address to each of you. Quickly, Tom, first, what are you most excited about and focused on?
[25:32]
C
Currently, we are just finishing up investing our first fund, which is a proof of concept fund, small fund, primarily individuals who we've done business with for many years. That fund has focused on basically three areas that the government has identified as critical to the country, national security, critical minerals and energy security. And because we're investing in those areas, we have the opportunity to apply for an SBIC license for our next fund, which should increase our capability of serving the market by two to three times what we raise as private capital. So that's going to start next year, most likely.
[26:23]
F
Thank you.
[26:23]
B
I'm going to ask each of your different questions that came from our listeners. Tom, this is actually specifically addressed to you. This person says that in your literature and your perspective, the Perpetuate Capital, you know, also has a perspective from a biblical perspective, seminars for financial literacy. And how do you sort of mix the biblical views with the financial views and some of your thoughts on that, because I know this is a deep part of who you are. If you don't mind, if you're comfortable with it, spend a moment on how those two things apply together, that you could be in business and be religious as well.
[27:09]
C
Well, when I was, when I was running Regent Surgical Health, I joined an organization called C12, which is similar to Vistage, which is a CEO roundtable organization organization, but it's primarily Christian business owners. And that organization, I was in it for seven years, had really helped me through the ups and downs of Obamacare and all the things that were happening in health care during the season that I was CEO of Regent, I believe that the best CEOs are the ones that continue to educate themselves. And if they're willing to sit down in a room with 12 other business owners for a day, a month, whether it be a Vistage meeting or a C12 meeting or a convene meeting, those are better people to invest in than the CEOs that know it all. And so that's the, that's the pond we fish in and it's a wonderful group of people. We invest in that those organizations every chance we get because they just seem to be better investments for us. And we are on the same page, we talk the same language. And they are very much in the mode of rewarding their employees through the ESOP conversion, more so than someone who just wants to get the maximum amount of dollars and walk away from their life's work.
[28:40]
B
Thank you. Mark, let me ask you this question that comes from a listener and thank you, Tom. This question comes from a listener. Middle managers, how do you make sure that you're dealing well with middle management? That they don't just become part of a big bureaucratic situation where things aren't. How do you deal with middle management, I guess is really the question.
[29:04]
D
Yeah, I think it's a really good question. A really hard challenge is again, how do you make sure that the team at various level is living the mission, the vision, but especially the values. And you know, one way we're doing that is we're just pushing this out now is an entire entirely new sort of meeting and communication structure where we are having meetings. I'm having meetings with different levels and different teams on a regular basis. Some are weekly, some are monthly, some are quarterly. But the whole goal is to connect the team. Again, I go back to alignment, to make sure everybody's aligned, understands the strategy, understands the mission, and have two way communication around the values and how it gets rolled out at different levels of the organization. And it really comes down to culture, right? Making sure you empower your people to do the right thing and to have that communication and those open channels. But it is, it is hard. It's a great question. It's hard.
[30:11]
B
Let me ask you this question. If you were advising somebody who's starting as a CEO or wants to be a CEO, what skills would you encourage them to develop? What skills are necessary to be an effective CEO? And would you encourage somebody who wants to be a leader to develop?
[30:30]
E
So I'd really encourage them to do two things. One, to make certain that they have a really great understanding of what it is that they are good in. Right? And the finite universe of all the things that they are not. And I say that because I thought that Tom just hit it right on the head. My goodness, right. You never want to be the kind of CEO, believe that you know it all. I am afraid of you. If that is in fact the case, that's one, two, right? To be really intellectually curious, to make certain that you are embracing the Opportunity to be an active listener and an active learner of everyone that you work with, the company that you are now going to be running, quite frankly, but also of your consumer. Right. And so I really think that it's a really great chance for you to double down in that space. Listen, you know what a CEO is supposed to be. You are setting strategy. You are the vision. You've got to communicate, communicate over, communicate and communicate again to Mark's exact point just a moment ago. One of the really important aspects of that, that mid level, right. Employees, to make certain that they feel like they are a part of everything else that you're doing. Where do they see themselves in your vision? What aspect of your strategic plan did you actually include them? And have they had an opportunity to feel like you built a big enough tent for them to now be able to see their own fingerprints and what it is that you're building together? I think that these are all the kinds of skills that you want to make certain that you have as you go forward into this new role and into this new realm. And then my friends, make certain that you get yourself a really great executive coach, mentor. There is no such thing as now I have arrived. So really making certain that you understand that being a CEO is just a great opportunity to serve more people on a bigger scale.
[32:15]
D
And Scott, can I jump in, Scott, and say something? I just want to tie a thread between what Tom's answer and mine and Micheline, which is, I think again, it's about leadership with conviction and values, whether it's, you know, through religion or through any other reason. It's, it's. What does one do when they don't have the big audience? When you're doing the right thing by your employees, the right thing by your clients, the right thing by your vision and mission and the integrity encouraged to stick with it, which includes openness. Right. Openness. To get it wrong too, and to be vulnerable. So I, I think that's a theme through all this.
[32:50]
C
And to be called out for it and be willing to listen.
[32:53]
G
Yeah, yeah.
[32:55]
E
And to actually right. Bring it back to them when you are wrong. Come back to your, to your employees and say, listen, we tried this. I was the biggest proponent of this. It was the wrong call.
[33:05]
C
One of the best features of Scott Becker as a, as a, as a counselor is his willingness to speak the truth, whether whether I wanted to hear it or not. And it was always appreciated. No.
[33:18]
B
Thank you so much. I want to thank all three of you. Micheline, there was a question here about does Your program also sponsor mid level providers, nurse practitioners, physician assistants. Could just really quickly address that because someone had that question.
[33:32]
E
Absolutely we do. Right. So I talk about the fact that we address the physician shortage because we were founded as an entity in order to propel more individuals into being physicians. But we absolutely. PhDs, pharm, DS, PAs. You got it. And so we really are attempting to address the entire workforce shortage across the board.
[33:55]
B
Thank you. I want to thank each of you. I've known all of you for a long time. I'm privileged to serve on the not for profit board that Michelin has. And it's really one of the great experiences of my life working with Michelin. I served on a board of Tom a long time ago. One of the best as well. And Mark Williams, I know him forever. Tom, Mark, Micheline. Fantastic. This will also be distributed as a podcast on the Becker Business series. But I want to thank each of you for sharing your thoughts, your time. It's a great privilege for our audience. A great pleasure for me. Thank you all very, very much. Thank you.
[34:26]
D
Thank you, Scott.
[34:27]
E
Thank you, Scott.
[34:29]
B
Our next session has three great panelists. Again, we've got with us Ben Lerner, Nancy Temple, who looks particularly well dressed today. She must be going to court too, as well as Jason Zinn. So we've got three brilliant panelists. I'll ask each of you, Jason, Ben and Nancy to take a moment to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your organizations and what you're building and what you're looking at. Ben, why don't I start with you? And I see an upper corner here, the upper middle of our, of our charts. Ben, can you take a moment and introduce yourself and tell us about what you do and the business that you've built.
[35:15]
H
Scott, great to see you again. Thank you for having me. I am the co founder of an executive search firm called Defined. We operate as holistic search partners to our clients. So we don't specialize in industry or functions. We work with senior leadership CEOs of the organizations as their leadership teams are in flux. We are spending a lot of time as a search firm investing in and leveraging technology to optimize our search delivery and really figure out as a small business the best way for us to sort of automate away from internal and administrative tasks. So I have two partners in the business and we run searches all across the U.S. europe and Asia.
[36:02]
B
And Ben, a typical search are you industry agnostic or focused on specific industries and what does the specific position or search that you're going after look like Great question.
[36:12]
H
So we are in diagnostic. We believe in the power of transferable skills and experiences. So our clients come to us often with critical and or confidential searches for CEO, cfo, cmo, heads of technology, heads of operations, where either a investment group has come in and is looking to transform the leadership team or a key hire is needed. And so we will come in often in a confidential way and manage those searches for our clients. And as an organization that does not specialize in a specific function, the benefit of that is our clients, after working with us, will often ask us to take on searches across their leadership team that allows us to better understand the culture and operating cadence of their organization and they view us as sort of their go to search partners.
[37:04]
B
Thank you. Jason, you spent a long time working with a close colleague of mine at Nancy's at skybridge Capital. You then started your own fund and I guess really a couple questions. First I'll ask you to introduce yourself and tell us about your fund and where you're investing and what you're excited about. Then I'll ask you the difficult question, are you confident in turning over searches to Ben's firm? And at what point would you have that type of confidence to turn over searches to Ben's firm? But Jason, first tell us what you do and you could take a pass or answer the question the second question as well as you'd like. Yeah, thanks.
[37:41]
I
Thank you, Scott. Great to always great to be with you. Thanks for, for having me. So as you mentioned, my name is Jason Zands. I'm the founder and managing partner of Nomi Capital. NOMI is a venture and growth equity investor focused on the defense and broader national security ecosystem. I founded the firm a little over two years ago. To your point. I spent the majority of my career at SkyBridge Capital and a few other larger financial institutions. Always wanted to build up, build something on my own. And so like I said, found a Nomi in May of 2024 similar to Ben, who's both building a business and working with others that are building a business, I am both building a business and investing in others that are building businesses. And so I think there's a lot of synergies back and forth and wisdom that I can impart on the founders that we invest in and likewise always learn from others building their businesses as well. Ben's the best in the business. That's all you're going to get from me for the benefit of the crowd here. Ben and I grew up together and have known each other for well over 30 years. So I would suggest no one other than the find for any of your search needs.
[39:00]
H
Good answer.
[39:01]
B
God bless. And that's a non sponsored moment. Well stated. Thank you Jason. Just fantastic.
[39:06]
I
See him next week on the golf course. And he's much bigger than me. He's much better at golf so I have to get that in there.
[39:12]
B
Well, let's hope you get some strokes in exchange for giving him that fine compliment and well deserved. But two of the very best people that we get a chance to visit with enjoy tremendously visiting with Ben and Jason. Nancy, tell us a little bit about your your career and what you do and we'll then follow up with a few questions for you.
[39:31]
J
Sure. I'm Nancy Temple. I'm a lawyer and people usually don't like to admit they are calling me because they usually have a problem that I need to solve somehow. Started a small law firm in 2008 so we celebrated our 16th year. We have about 15 people and Nancy
[39:51]
B
is a long term colleague and friend and quite frankly, whenever I have a legal issue that needs working on a refer to people, we refer to Nancy and her firms. You're also managing the firm. Take a moment on sort of managing the firm. Managing a professional services organization, advice for people, trying to build that, keep that moving in the right direction, taking care of clients, taking care of people. Give us a few thoughts on advice in building and managing that firm.
[40:21]
J
Well, you have to be able to juggle a lot of different activities. Quality legal services and solving the client's problems are first priority. But as a mom of three, I think I've learned three boys. I've learned a little bit how to juggle and integrate different things. And it does come down to the people. It's so important to have the right people on your team that I can rely on when I travel or or go off and watch my boys play hockey. I know I've got somebody that I can rely upon and trust to help serve our clients. But I also like being able to watch people develop and grow. And so that's what I'm working on right now is trying to build that team for the next generation at our firm.
[41:16]
B
Let me ask you this question. I was talking recently to a close colleague whose business is a client of yours and that person responded that Nancy's accessibility is second to none. Whether and they've got a business, they've got different issues, different challenges. How important is it as a professional service provider to have that type of responsiveness and accessibility? And how do you teach that to others. How do you, how do you teach that? So it permeates the organization. That type of responsiveness, that kind of presentness which you know, for those of us that know you, and there's few other on here, whether it's the Crawfords, Tom Malin or others that have worked with you over the years, we know you for that. How important is that to sort of make that part of the culture of your organization, that kind of responsiveness?
[42:03]
J
Well, it, I think it's really critical to client service and I'm always thinking about my clients problems and how to solve them, whether it's when I'm working out or making dinner or in the office. And the technology allows us to be very receptive and accessible at times. And how I teach that to others is I try to watch them, observe and hopefully and bring them along and include them in those conversations and consultations. It's a huge investment that we make at our firm in our team members and lawyers that we bring on board because we do not charge to have two people to go to meetings or go to court or handle a deposition unless it's absolutely necessary. But I include them for in almost every aspect of practicing law. That's the only way they're going to be able to pick it up and emulate and learn from others. Many, many mentors did that for me. And I think that we have the flexibility in a smaller practice where we can afford to do that. And it's important for us to invest in our people that way.
[43:29]
B
Thank you. Ben, let me ask you this question. You built a firm from scratch. An incredible thing to do in today's world. Tremendous entrepreneurial investment and effort. When you think about building your business and building a great business and you work so closely with clients, are building great businesses, what are a couple principles that you come back to again and again? What are things you think about in building your own business and watching your customers, your clients build their businesses that are critical to success?
[43:58]
H
Yeah, great, great question. I'll, I'll first echo what what Nancy said. I think as a service provider, albeit in sort of a different way, I think, I think availability for us, you know, urgency, you know, clients come to us with key people needs and one of the reasons they come back to work with us is they feel our passion and urgency as it relates to sort of delivering on that search. We're very thoughtful about managing workloads and that allows us to really put in the resources to deliver for our clients. And when our clients are reaching out to us there's an expectation on our end of urgency to respond and urgency to deliver. So I think as a service provider, 100% agree with Nancy there. The other piece I would say is we build our business on transparency and honesty. So I think when we're running search processes, we are incredibly open with our clients and our candidates about what's happening that provides sort of a platform to deliver. Right. You know, the biggest mistake you could have in a search process is getting to the end of the search process and being off, be it related to motivation or compensation. And so we're very deliberate about those conversations and we want to work with and invest in clients that sort of share those values. Finding those alignment is really important to us.
[45:23]
B
How important is it to work with clients that treat you side by side with them as a partner versus strictly a people vendor? In terms of getting to that alignment, in terms of getting that right for the client, it's critical.
[45:37]
H
Stakeholder alignment is absolutely critical in delivery. So you know, both the hiring manager and the operational HR teams that are on searches, there needs to be alignment and our role is to facilitate for them and ensuring that we are aligned on process in terms of the interview strategy, in our role being there to deliver for them. We're not adversarial, we're there to support them. And I think making sure they feel that early on, particularly by results and delivering great people into search process helps you build credibility. But the alignment is critical to delivering in a timely manner.
[46:20]
B
Thank you. And Jason, let me ask you this question. You're investing now in a number. I've taken founder driven companies. Maybe tell us a little bit about the types of companies you're investing in and what sort of leads you to think we should double down and really look closely at this company or this effort versus no, not, not something that we're going to put money into. How do you sort of look at that as to at least initial levers of yes, we should look more closely at this versus no, for whatever reason, we're not excited about it.
[46:54]
K
Yeah.
[46:54]
I
So we, as I mentioned, invest exclusively in defense, sort of broadly defined. So that can include everything from AI infrastructure to energy to space to drones. We happen to be most focused on sort of the rebuild of the US industrial base, so kind of manufacturing and supply chain as it relates to US defense and national security. And so, you know, I think with, with anything investment or otherwise, the people are critical, especially at these stages of these, of the businesses that we look at. We generally don't do early. Early stages are not pre seed or seed companies, but these are generally series A, series B, series C companies. So you know, they may have 10, 50, maybe 100 people at their organization, but they're almost always actually exclusively led. And so people are critical in whatever industry that you're in. In this space that I'm operating in, these are long term investments.
[47:56]
D
Right.
[47:57]
I
This is not a trading strategy. You're not flipping in and out of it, you know, in three or six months you're, you're married in many ways. And on top of that you have the sensitivity of the industry that they're operating in that we are operating in. Right. Being defense and national security. And so the integrity of the person that you're investing in or supporting in supporting is really paramount. And so for us, there's obviously a lot of metrics we look at before deciding to make an investment or even to continue with the diligence process. But if the person at the top is not someone that we believe in and trust and want to be on a journey in for five years, five plus years, the rest of it doesn't matter, you know, the process will just end right there. So I think people is really number one.
[48:44]
B
And how much is the defense and security investment changing? If you went back historically, you know, wars would go on over years. There was time to get the supply chain up to speed. Now it seems if that supply chain is not up to speed quickly, I mean, you hear rumors in D.C. about do we have enough missiles for stuff and so forth. How much is the business of investing in defense changing from what it was traditionally, I take it? Tremendously. But any insight there without getting us in trouble with the National Security Administration?
[49:15]
I
Yeah, I mean it's night and day for various reasons. One, defense was never really considered investable from private capital or venture capital. Some of that was politics, some of it was otherwise. That has changed over the last call it 10 plus years, but really accelerated in the last five. But more broadly and more directly to your point, we've known throughout the military and the industrial base that we face challenges and for a while just didn't matter. Right. And then Russia invaded Ukraine and we looked to support them and send millions of munitions and other materials over which depleted our stockpiles. We said, oh, you know, this could be a problem if something were to happen. And then more recently you have the conflict in the Middle east with Iran and that's sort of been the eye opener for us. That's gone from more theory into real world, you know, oh crap. We have this many Patriot missiles, we shot this many of them. What are we going to do? And the reality is that the existing industrial base and supply chain can't support the demand that exists both for ourselves and for our allies. A lot of that has been decades in the making. Post Cold War, we being the government, really forced consolidation within the defense ecosystem. We went from 50 plus prime contractors, as it's known, to just a handful today. That was government forced consolidation. And we're now dealing with the consequences of that. It's a supply chain that relies on overseas in various parts of it, including China. And that's dangerous for obvious reasons. So the rebuild of that is critically important.
[51:09]
B
One more question. From a defense perspective and an investment perspective, different sort of providers seem to be loved or hated by the particular administration. So if Pulitzer is loved by this administration or may or may not be, or Elon Musk is loved by this administration, how much concern is there as an investor that there's pushback or reaction to that with the next administration? When so much of the sort of ultimate customer is the government or national security, how important is it that you understand the politics in defense investing?
[51:47]
I
Yeah, it's an unfortunate reality of it. I think our hope, and there is some truth to it, that at the end of the day the national security of the country and our interests overseas can transcend politics. But I think to much extent that's wishful thinking, especially these days. So it definitely plays into it. It's a question we get often from our investors. What I typically say is I think the size of the budget is undoubtedly political. The current administration is proposing a one and a half trillion dollar budget. We're going to have a fight over that. We're going to have midterms coming up. And that is undoubtedly a political question. The rest of it to me, as far as reshoring our supply chains, making them more resilient, being able to produce the munitions and the systems that our military needs, for the most part that's bipartisan and you can see around the edges where things get politicized. But at its core I think that is broadly bipartisan. And a lot of the, a lot of the initiatives that are underway as far as embracing new technology, embracing Silicon Valley, moving away from the legacy defense contractors, a lot of that actually started under the Obama administration with the creation of what's called the Defense Intelligence Unit, which is the diu. And that has really grown rapidly to now have a multi billion dollar budget today. And you've seen throughout administrations, the Biden administration, the Trump administration, A lot of support getting behind these new entrants. So we think a lot of that continues. But undoubtedly politics filters into all of this and it's something to be aware of.
[53:27]
B
Thank you. I'm going to ask each of you the following question and then come back to a couple other questions. And Ben, I'll start with you here. You get the situation, and I'll adjust this question a little bit for Jason and Nancy. But you get a situation where somebody looks great on paper as a candidate, as an interviewee for a job. What's a friction point? What's a point where you say the person looks great on paper, but this person's probably not going to work because of what stands out to you. Once in a while when you see somebody that you're trying to add to an executive team, a leadership team. But what are red flags in? Nancy, I'll ask the same thing about you. And then Jason, I'll ask you the same question about investing in companies. What might be a red flag? Even though the business plan looks good, the people look good, what might be a red flag? Jason or Ben first. Sorry about that.
[54:15]
H
Yeah, that's right. So I would say when running a search process, I think you're assessing candidates against particular competencies and experiences that are relevant for whatever role. Depending on the industry or function, those, of course, will change. I think what we look for when we run search processes is one, we create behavioral interview questions where we're asking candidates to show examples in their backgrounds, through their experiences. So tell me about a time when. And what that does is it helps mitigate bias in interview processes because you're asking consistently the same sort of questions. And what you're looking for is consistency. Right. So as you work through interview processes and you meet candidates multiple times, when you're diving into both their backgrounds and motivations, you're looking for consistency. And if things shift throughout the process, it makes your ears perk a bit.
[55:15]
B
Right.
[55:15]
H
So that. That I would say is something that we're certainly looking for and gives a bit of a flag if something shifts dramatically as it relates to their motivation or compensation. Things like that give you pause.
[55:30]
B
One of the things that happens is in. We used to judge this poorly when somebody come in for a job and then ask for 20% higher compensation than we were. You're trying to give. Sometimes we would give that compensation, but then we'd have really high expectations for that person. They were almost penalized for asking for too much. How much? You get into these emotional situations between sort of hires and companies in the interview process that could set the stage poorly for the longer term fit or alignment.
[56:00]
H
Great, great question. It is unlike people may think the compensation and motivation question come up in the first call and then it's, it's reinforced throughout the process. So we're eager to understand why you're looking to make a move in our situation. You know, we're going to them so they, you know, they haven't applied for the job, but we've, we've gone to recruit them. But we want to understand the why One of the drivers, you know, is it, is it a new manager? Internally, were you mixed missed for a promotion? So we're asking all these questions at the beginning. Do you want to relocate for family reasons? These are questions we're asking at the beginning. And equally we're aligning on compensation expectations from the beginning as well. Because again I alluded to this previously. When you bring a candidate into a search process and you have a conversation initially about what compensation expectations are, of course there could be some nuance, but there's an expectation and understanding on both sides going back to transparency and honesty that that's the way in which we're operating. Right. So those conversations are front loaded and shared with our clients from the beginning. And any sort of big deterrent from that things changed.
[57:17]
B
Thank you. Nancy, let me ask you this question. So many people transition from being a professional into being a CEO, a leader, and you're the managing partner. Any advice in making that transition from being sort of a day to day practicing lawyer at the highest level to actually sort of running the firm, managing the partnership? Transitions and leadership. Any advice for people on transitions and leadership?
[57:45]
L
Sure.
[57:46]
J
I like to try to force myself and my own transition to always think about what kind of leader of the law practice did I want to see when I was a young associate or a young partner and what was it? What did I think was very positive in leaders that I served under. So I try to replicate that and remind myself of what it was like back many years ago. But I'm, and I'm also asking them what is it that you need? What do you think we should be doing? We, we do have regular meetings. Mark talked about regular cadence of communications. It's hard when you've got clients to serve and deadlines to stick with it. But we, we do try to do that and, and, and have people participate and that the other thing I do is, you know, I've had young lawyers come in and negotiate. I think they all feel like they need to negotiate A higher starting or initial compensation package. And so I usually respond by giving them as, as much as I can afford, but then also sit down and help them see the reality that it takes a long time for younger to mid level lawyers to generate the profits and the, the revenues to cover their expenses and so that they understand the economics that I'm personally investing in this individual and his or her professional career. And then they get, they get more buy in, I think if they see how they're contributing or not so much initially to the bottom line. And so I think sharing that sort of information and, and getting the feedback from the younger generation is, is kind of good for us older leaders.
[59:59]
B
I know that Nancy is actually quite young because I know she's two days younger than I am. So when she says older, I take offense at that. She's very, very young. Jason, let me ask you this question, Jason Ben, I'll ask you both this question. Both you started your own businesses, you're both founders. Talk a little bit about sort of any advice you would have to people starting a business and how anxiety provoking was it when you first got started or wasn't it? Jason
[60:28]
I
I think, I think the three of us have discussed this in the past. My biggest advice is to just go for it. I think think I had some kind of fits and starts over the years of things I thought I wanted to do and oh, is now the right time? The reality is it's never the right time and you'll always find an excuse as to why not to do it and you'll never be anywhere close to fully prepared to getting started. And so my advice, which over the years I should have taken my own advice on, is to just go for it. And, and the reality is you don't know what day one is going to look like, you don't know what year five is going to look like. And you're just going to have to figure it out along the way.
[61:12]
B
In terms of you raised a fund, what was it like to get your first couple commitments? How validating was that? How scary was that? How exciting was that? Just give us a moment on that.
[61:25]
I
Yeah, no, it was a rocky start for sure, for reasons that I won't go into too much detail on. But when I first started, started the business a little over two years ago, I thought I was being, you know, realistic in that I was not trying to raise a fund. I actually started for the first 12 or 18 months it was just me and I was doing deal by deal so I would source a deal and then bring it to my client base. And the first several were quite small. Fortunately, some of them have worked out to be potentially some of the best investments. All I've made, Xai, was the first investment that I ever did under Nomi and, and we're now exiting that through SpaceX. But yeah, that was, you know, there were, I think, five people or groups that invested into that deal. Some I had known, others I didn't. And you know, I'll be forever grateful and loyal and appreciative of those that supported me from day one and continue to support me to this day, including with the fund that we ultimately raised at the beginning of this year.
[62:30]
B
Fantastic. And Ben, a little bit of, just a moment on the anxiety, the excitement of starting your own firm. And what did that feel like?
[62:38]
H
Very real. I would say this. I think if you, as Jason said, you know, if you back yourself, if you believe in yourself, give it a go. Just give it, give it a shot. And I think what you'll be surprised about is how many people along the way are going to be eager to support you because it is a big transition, it's a big change. You're losing a lot of stability. But I would say that the anxiety that comes from starting the business is totally trumped by the excitement and pride that you have in terms of running your own business. And so, so give it a go and see where it takes you is sort of what I would say.
[63:28]
B
Nancy, one last question for you. The most satisfying piece of being a leader today, the thing that keeps your bucket full. What's the most satisfying part of leading the law firm and leading the three hockey sons? But let's sit with the law firm first because Nancy's got multiple full time jobs, but it's done an incredible job managing and driving the law firm. The most satisfying aspect of being a CEO, of being the managing partner.
[63:58]
J
Well, I like, I like the people, I like working with the people, I like them, trying to develop them professionally and watch them enjoy working with clients, achieving results for clients and working together as a team because it, you could win a case, but it's, it's only fun if you have somebody to turn to at the end of the day and go have a beer with and celebrate that win or, or commiserate on a loss if that's the case. And it all comes down to the relationships that, that we have and, and so trying to have of people be successful and enjoy what they do for a profession and want to come into the office and contribute, that, that's where it's at.
[64:55]
B
So no, I love that. I love that because everything done with a partner, with a colleague, with a team is so much more satisfying than solo. And so many people on the call today have built teams are part of teams and it really is what makes so much of the meaning in what we do. I want to thank each of you for joining us on this session again. All these sessions will also be released as an entire summit as well as individual sessions on the Becker podcast. But Jason, Ben, Nancy, always a pleasure to visit with the three of you. I love it because I get to hear more about what's going on in defense, what's going on in Ben's business, what's going on in Nancy's business. Really a great pleasure. I hope our audience enjoys it as much as I do. Thank you folks so much for joining us today. Thank you very, very much.
[65:44]
J
Thanks.
[65:44]
H
Thank you, Scott.
[65:45]
I
Thanks, Scott.
[65:46]
B
Thank you, folks. Fantastic. We're going to move on to our next session in just about 30 seconds. We've got a fantastic next panel. Again, we'll really be focusing on CEO questions. The agenda. We've got subtitles around efficiency, growth and resilience. But the reality is trying to get from our four panelists that are joining us next, we've got William Crawford, the CEO of a family office, Packlet Milken, Marion Crawford, founder, CEO and Crawford, one of the fastest growing branding marketing strategy groups in the country. Barry Tanner, been CEO of multiple different companies and I've had the chance over the years to serve on boards with Beary, one of the great CEOs and private equity sponsor CEOs of our time. And finally, Holly Buckley, who's the chair of the healthcare group at McGuire woods, who does this incredible job of working at the intersection of private equity and healthcare. I'm gonna ask each of you to take a moment as we get started. We've got got four great leaders joining us here. Let me start with Holly. Take a moment and introduce yourself and tell us about both the organization you lead and the biggest issue that's occupying your mind as a leader right now. And then William Miriam Berealski each do the same thing to tell us a little bit about your organization yourself and maybe the top issue you're thinking about currently. Holly, let me turn it to you.
[67:25]
M
Great. Thanks, Scott. And thanks to my fellow panelists. Very excited to be here today. I'm Holly Buckley. I chair the healthcare department of McGuire Woods. McGuire woods is an AmLaw 50 full service law firm. But we have was one of our flagship Departments, one of the oldest healthcare departments in the country with about 50 attorneys who are solely focused on healthcare. And we range from purely regulatory attorneys to, to transactional attorneys. We do a lot of work in private equity hospitals and health systems and various other players in the health care space. The biggest issue I would say I'm focused on right now is balancing growth with maintaining really high quality and equilibrium. Organizations that grow too fast can erode quality and culture and financial discipline. And so we, we very much want to grow, but continue to be great and really maintain and preserve our culture. So that's really where a lot of my time is focused right now.
[68:29]
B
Thank you. And I love that. And that's such a challenge that everybody faces if you're trying to grow and growing, maintaining the quality, particularly in whatever organization. But I see it particularly in that professional services organization, maintaining that quality, that responsiveness in how you operate. Marion, let me turn to you. Founder, CEO of Crawford. Talk a little bit about, introduce, tell us about Crawford. Tell us about the key issue that's occupying your mind. And don't worry about the fact that William Crawford is coming in and out of screen. We're just going to let that all go and not worry about it. Marianne, tell us about Crawford and what you do.
[69:12]
L
Well, thank you. It's great to be here and I've really enjoyed the first two panels. So I'm Marian Crawford, founded CE, founder and CEO of Crawford Agency. We are 16 years old and we have about 35 folks who are advertising and marketing based in Greenville, South Carolina. And we have worked since we opened the doors. We started out in healthcare. We have moved into higher ed, banking, tourism, retail. And it is never a dull moment. As far as what is kind of the biggest thing on my mind, it always is how do we get and keep the best people? And we want people who want, who love the work that we get to do and who are willing to really give their all for that. And then I would say, especially in our industry, AI is a big, has a big piece of my mind share at the moment because you can, pretty much anyone can go out and get some basic copywriting or basic design done on AI. So we are in a race to figure out how to leverage the right tools for the team to make us better at what we do. So it's, it's a lot, but it's exciting, never dull.
[70:37]
B
Let me ask you a question because you started this I don't know how many years ago exactly, but what's really remarkable, and Holly could say the same thing, about some of the clients that are served today. Today, some of the biggest clients are household names across the country from sort of a Greenville, South Carolina native agency. I know you work with nothing but Cakes, which is a national brand. That's every place Adidas ucb, which was a local bank that's become a huge regional bank. Talk a bit about the evolution of a firm from serving smaller clients to now serving brand name clients sort of across the country. And what does that look like and how do you think a strategy as you evolve from into larger and larger names and clients and customers and what you do for them. How do you sort of like as Holly said, keep up the quality as you grow like that. You're now 35 people. Give us a thought or two on that.
[71:37]
L
Well, it's, it's such a good question as we, it, it's really been very, very the Jim Collins flywheel. You, you got to push that flywheel continually. You cannot ever let up even if it starts to move. Because once you get these clients, if you want to grow and evolve and level up to a little bit larger client, more regional, more national in scale, you have to make sure you've got the talent. It comes back to the people, the talent that can do the jobs they need you to do. The jobs become more. The, the assignments become more specific in a way because for a large nothing Bundt cakes, they don't necessarily need us to be everything because they probably have several agencies that they're engaging across the marketing and advertising spectrum. Same with Adidas. But if we can get in and do a really good job and, and prove ourselves, be quick, be good, be, you know, better than good, deliver more than expected, then the door may open for us to have a little bit further and grow that relationship, which we're fortunate, has happened in many instances.
[72:53]
B
Thank you. And amazing to see what you've built and I've watched it from the inception. Really William, you're one of the smartest people that I know and a pleasure to visit with. Can you take a moment and tell us a little bit about yourself and your background? Because you've got this almost fascinating background, lawyer by background, Harvard graduate, you were actually an esteemed established musician at the highest level and combined all that to now run a very large, multi billion dollar family office. Tell us a bit about your background and some of the thoughts on what, what, where you spend the most your time focusing today. What makes you, what do you.
[73:35]
K
Well, thanks Scott. Glad to be here. And I'm also glad to know that if Even if I don't see myself up on the screen that you can still see me. So I'll make sure behave. Yeah. As Scott alluded to, I have a little bit of an odd background. I grew up in a small town in South Georgia, but I was a pianist, a classical pianist by background, went to undergrad and grad at the Jacobs School and then realized I'm not going to make much money as a classical pianist. I would guarantee that not many people on this podcast or this, this virtual presentation today have paid a lot for classical pianists lately. So I ended up going to law school. Fortunate to have, you know, you as a classmate and a roommate and a really close friend for the last 35 plus years. And you know, after being a lawyer working in a public company for the last dozen years or so, I've been at Packlett Milliken. We're a private investment firm, effectively a PE firm owned by the Milliken family. I would say we're like a PE firm with a couple of key differences. One, we are owned by a single family and perhaps more importantly, our capital allocation is permanent, meaning that we don't have to return our capital in seven or 10 or 12 years. We just pay dividends, much like a public company. A couple of percent of navigation per year. We're direct investors, meaning we don't make indirect passive investments or allocations to public markets. Usually we're 90% plus or wholly owned owner. Two divisions that don't really relate to each other at all. Energy and real estate. Energy has a really diversified group of assets. A small electric utility, a lot of different types of renewables, solar, hydro, wind, landfill gas, and most recently, really my favorite is woody biomass on the real estate side of the house. 50 assets across the US, California, Texas, Southeast, DC, New York focused on multifamily industrial, a little bit of self storage, last thing, maybe a couple hundred employees. The bulk of them are in our energy subs. And you know, this is somewhat related to the CEO point. I have to manage former Goldman bankers all the way indirectly down to people who work on electric lines. If I hop to your question about, you know, what issues I wrestle with, my wife would say I more than I would care to admit. But I guess really in my seven year tenure as CEO, there's one issue that's just kind of constantly at the top and that's optimizing my team, you know, so I got to make sure they play well in the same sandbox even though they're competing for the same pot of capital. You know, and everyone's got their own agenda, what they want to invest in, what they want their next job to be. And so you got to get them to subordinate that to the greater good. And so, you know, bottom line, my job is to make sure that the culture is good. CEOs, keeper of the culture. And that's what I think about every day.
[76:40]
B
Thank you. And I love that. And thank you for joining us. Barry, I've had a chance to see you work probably better than anybody I've known over the last 30 years as a CEO for probably several different one, several different private equity sponsored firms. Whether you like it or not, you keep on getting hired again and again. I saw you build one company from almost nothing, a founder owned company, into a billion dollar company that was sold to one of the largest companies in America. Talk a little bit about, talk about, about yourself. Give us an introduction and tell us what you're most focused on currently.
[77:22]
G
Well, Scott, thanks so much for having me. This is a great, this is a great opportunity and honor to be here with, with all of these great guests. I, to your, to your point, I guess I started my career as a cpa. I've been, I worked for KPMG for about six or seven years and then got bit by the entrepreneurial bug and really became more of an operator. Both almost always in healthcare, but early on in the finance side where you and I met, and then later on in the operating side. I love the healthcare field and I'm currently serving as CEO of a company called Respire Home Care Services. It is, it is a, is classified as a DME company, but within that huge DME space we are very much a niche operator delivering complex respiratory care to patients in their home. Think predominantly patients who are on ventilators, often tracheostomies, a lot of ALS patients, and a sort of a subspecialty, if you will, in the pediatric market. Of that. What I'm focused on, I would say mostly right now is trying to raise the bar in terms of what it means to deliver care to complex respiratory patients in their home and to do so by really differentiating ourselves, really raising the bar. I mean the standards are set by the typical regulators, Medicare being sort of one of the big ones, Medicare, Medicaid. But when I looked at this space, I thought to myself that that care doesn't feel sufficient and I want to really raise the bar. I'd have that be the differentiator for Respire. So that's what I, and that's what I'm really spending most of my time on right now and I'm trying to get there in a whole number of ways. Certainly, certainly cultural is where it all begins. Delivering care in the home, I think has a lot to do with a coordination of a large team of people who make it all happen.
[79:40]
B
Let me ask you this question, Barry, and I'm going to bring Holly and Marion a very similar question with a slightly different spin on it. But this question you talk about, about differentiating services in sort of an information overload world. How do you sort of both present and execute in a way where you could start to really differentiate, where people sort of recognize we should work with this company. And you've obviously done this. This is not a new thing. I, I knew you best in working with physicians endoscopy for a very long time. Then you worked with an oncology platform that I think was owned by Cardinal or bought by Cardinal. But, but how do you differentiate yourself in a very commoditized, very information overloaded world? How do you do that so your company sets apart and either gets premium pricing or is well recognized in the market and, and effective and successful at growing.
[80:34]
G
Yeah, it is a great question and I think it, it always like in many things, Scott, it boils down to people. I think especially in healthcare today, once you move outside of primary care and more into the specialty side, it's hard to really understand exactly for a consumer, the quality of care. But there's one thing I think every single one of us understands and that is the feeling of being cared for. And I think that is something that is delivered by people who have passion for what they're doing and who have compassion for the people that they're interacting with. And that is largely cultural driven. And I, and so when I said what is this all about? This is about creating a team of people who believes in what they're doing and who believes that their interactions with patients and with team members, because team members, it's sort of like a chain of events all the way from the people who are in house supporting the clinicians who go to see the patients. It's this chain reaction if everyone feels supported and passionate that will carry through to that, that being cared for, feeling at the patient level. And I hate to say it's got but that is a differentiator today in
[82:04]
B
today's market, that kind of response and that actually caring for the patient, for the people. And we see that at large health systems that really focus both culturally and you constantly hear it around the safety and taking care of the patient and others don't. And you really do feel it over time. Holly Marion, let me ask you this question. I'll start with Holly first is you've built this tremendous group and then also a practice in private equity and healthcare within that group. How do you think about how you go to market and attract clients? How much of that is niche centric, one on one marketing? How does that look in terms of going to market and building a client base?
[82:57]
M
Yeah, I'm gonna answer your question, but also a slightly different question because as you were speaking with Barry, it kind of got me thinking about, I kind of sell in two different ways, right? I sell to clients and prospective clients, but also to potential attorneys who may come and join, join the firm through our growth initiatives. And I recently had a conversation with five or six partners who have recently joined us, each individually from different places, so that I could better understand what our core differences are and what our selling points are and what's unique about us. So I've been at McGuire woods my entire legal career. I've just had my 17 year anniversary. So other than talking to people in the market, I don't truly know how we're different from others. I don't internally know that. Like I have to learn that. So I think kind of step one in terms of going to market is really knowing yourself and knowing who you are as a, as a business person, as a, as a company, as a culture, and how you're different from other people. And then how do you communicate that in a way that resonates with your audience? And I think that's true whether you're selling legal services or selling your firm is somewhere for a partner to come and join us. And so in terms of the niche centric thing, Scott, I mean, you've been kind of the teacher of all of us in terms of how to build a practice. And I think the niche approach has always worked incredibly well because too many people try to be all things to all people. But when you can go out and say, I am the person for this, and I know this better than anyone else, and I can add value because of my deep and specific knowledge that's so much more useful to people than when you just say, I can do anything for you and be a jack of all trades, it just doesn't have the same appeal. And so I think in terms of building my legal practice, I very much focused on the, the things that I uniquely can do better than other people. But I think in order to do that, you really have to Know yourself in order to take yourself Wealth 2 Market.
[85:09]
B
Thank you. And Marion, let me ask you this question and how you've built a premier team and a premier group. Marion, similarly you've built sort of the premier agency firm in the South Carolina region, the North Carolina region. You just built this great agency, 35 people now and very close customer relationships. I know the relationship with one of your clients goes back a very long time and you've ended up staying outside as leadership for that. That and that's the same with a lot of your clients. Very, very close client relationships. How do you continue to bring in client relationships and how do you brand yourself as a firm as to are we the, are we the. The best regional firm? Are we the best in banking? Are we best in. In. In. In food and beverage? And then how do you maintain the quality as you grow the firm from what it was originally mom and pop firm to now 35 full time professionals to continued growth? How do you both branch yourself as to what do you want to be? I mean I think if you now is sort of the highest end best firm in the region and really deep in certain areas, how do you think about that and how do you maintain that quality as you grow?
[86:29]
L
Well, we are currently and have been since the beginning a full service agency. So we are not a niche although we have developed deep expertise in potential in certain areas. So for example I would say when we are going to market ourselves we're looking at if we're talking depending on who we're talking talking with, are they the ideal client in that they match a couple of criteria. One, are they in an industry where we have expertise banking, health care, travel and tourism, retail, any of those kind of higher education? Are they, do they need a service where we really shine? I mean there, there are a lot of ad agencies out there. There are not as many that are really, really good at both advertising and communications on the PR side of the house. Because I come at it from a PR background and we've recruited people around the core to be really, really excellent at what they do. Media and creative and communications and all of the digital aspects because we've recruited that we have all of the services in house but we don't necessarily go to and nothing bundt cakes and try to be everything. We figure out what is their specific need and how do we match that need. So you're right. The other thing is we're very, very focused on the humanity of our business. I, at our staff meeting I'm, I'm always sort of a drumbeater of the fact is the people in our business, whether they're in this building or they're people that are in our clients clients offices, they are people and we need to know them as people and care about them because that way we'll do a better job.
[88:27]
B
Let me ask you this question about leadership, Mary, because you, you mentioned this, you came out of a specific background. Most people in business would immediately bias towards doubling down on that background and hiring more people like that. What was the realization, what was the light bulb? What drove you to say, I can't just have all PR people, we need to be broader than that. And obviously you're a really gifted person. But, but what was it that led you to think about we got to hire people that fill out the team, but we also can't be in 30 different areas, we got to be really deep in a few. What was that light bulb that led you to hire outside of your own expertise? Was it client driven? Was it something that you saw? How did that come about out it's opportunity?
[89:13]
L
When a client said to me, I need this. Can you do it? And this happened on a number of occasions. And William Crawford will definitely remember this. When the client asked me if we could produce an annual report in some ridiculously short amount of time, I said yes, we can. And, and we figured it out over the fourth of July holiday and set up shop because. Because we knew that it was important. So then I looked at him and said, because he's always been a really strong background advisor at Crawford, I said we've got to hire creative, we have to have a creative director. And he said are you sure? And I said absolutely. This is something that is gonna, it's gonna change the game for us as an agency. We have to have that. And that was really the start of it is because we needed that. I couldn't just go outsource that. I needed to have, have core competencies in a few areas, as you said, in house. And we can still freelance. But I love the fact that we have such a strong team under this roof with so many diverse capabilities and we're all down the hall from each other except for a couple of remote employees who happen to have our last name, but hopefully they'll be back here one day. But those, the team members, we are constantly in this office sharing ideas, bouncing ideas off of each other, which I think makes us a way better integrated agency than we would be otherwise.
[90:39]
B
Fantastic. Quite frankly. Perry, let me ask you this question because so many CEOs struggle with this issue of how much do they stick in their lane. Like Holly and I at McGuire woods are in several lanes, but then periodically a client comes in at a different lane. And almost like Marion said, we're going to figure it out. If we can put the right people on it, we feel like we could do it. And also expanding the other lanes as well. But at the same time drove a lot of the business development around private equity investors in healthcare and healthcare hospitals and health systems and so forth. But then some opportunities you've ran different businesses. Gastroenterology business, a oncology business, now a home care business. Talk a bit about that. Looking at different lanes while sting in the core lane that you're in, how do you think about that? Because that's something that all CEOs need to wrestle with. William we'll come back to in a second because they're in two core lanes, real estate and energy. But how do you think about do you touch other lanes or is your timeline with your private equity funds that you better stick to the core? How do you think about that, the diversification versus being in a core lane?
[91:50]
G
I think I'm not sure whether I've really thought about this in the academic sense, Scott, but I maybe, maybe it's even a lack of self confidence. But I always feel I can only juggle so many things at once. And once I zero in on sort of a vision for a company, I have to first sort of figure out in my own mind what can this company be? What is it that is going to make us special and differentiate us. And it could could, it could be a level of care, it could be a variety of different things. But then I usually within a certain sort of range of motion, so to speak. I stay with that vision. I don't try to be all things to all people. I don't try to, you know, within that lane, I might do M and A, I might do de novo. But generally I want to within that vision that I have, I've never, I think I've never wanted to be the biggest at something. I don't want this organization to claim to be the biggest, but I do want to lay claim to being the best at what we do. And I think so within that I'm always juggling, trying, experimenting, especially in the care area. What is it that is going to make someone say, wow, that was different. That got my attention. And if we can do that within the healthcare sector, I think you're on your way. And that's what I focus on.
[93:25]
B
And Barry, I'm going to ask you one more question. In watching you operate over the years, what I've always been struck by is not 10 person executive teams, but typically a handful of core leaders in the executive team. You know, you know, where you're really directly managing, you know, back in the day and growing a billion dollar company, it was a handful of leaders. How do you think about the spread of management team versus how many key leaders a CEO wants to work with or should work with in really executing and aligning a vision? And obviously it differs by type of company, but I've seen you working in a very distinct way. I feel like, like. Any thoughts there?
[94:08]
G
I think I've always felt like having a relatively small team where all of us can wear the same hats, we're all more or less just interchangeable, we all begin to speak the same language, we sound the same, the vision is the same. If I'm not there, the next person who steps in, you, you really won't be able to detect any difference in terms of if, if you ask the question of where we're headed or why we do what we do, how we manage people, how we take care of patients, you'll get the same feeling and the same answer. So usually it's a, it usually ends up being a team of about four really special people. And you could substitute any one of us on any given day and you would have the exact same feel within the organization or throughout the organization. So it's really, maybe, it's maybe you would say depth as opposed to breadth, but you know, a small core team of people who are very deep in what we're doing.
[95:12]
B
Thank you, William. I'm going to ask you one question and then come back to each of you on what you're most excited about today and then we'll wrap up this panel. William, you've done a tremendous job within Paco Milliken of building resilience. How important is that, that building of resilience, building out your leadership team, particularly as you span a couple huge areas and have lots of assets under management, building that resilience in your investment team and leadership team, how important has that been to sort of maintaining stability and keeping things moving in the right direction?
[95:48]
K
Yeah. You know, Scott, that was probably the most difficult of all the questions you proffered, and I had to think about it a bit. It's obviously critical because you want the organization to continue after you're gone. And you know, my retirement is in the. I can see it in the future. And so it's critically important that I continue to develop that team. And I also want the team to be resilient internally, even without me. You know, I guess when I think about the company and how it's resilient, I would really say, say three things from a business standpoint. First of all, you got to keep things in perspective. Marion's heard me say this a million times. Rarely are things as good as they appear or as bad as they seem. So try and take the long review and that'll help you with, you know, as you're dealing with uncertainty. Second, be flexible. You know, you're going to start with a plan, but things are going to start changing on day two. And so you want to be. You want to be flexible and understand what you're willing to compromise on and what you're not. And then the last thing you know, I don't know that we ever remembered much that we learned in law school, but there was one class that I took and probably you did, too. It was Roger Fisher's negotiation class. And the one thing I remember from it is that he was always talking about improving your batna, which was your best alternative to a negotiated agreement. And that's basically working very hard to create optionality so that if you find yourself in a. In a difficult situation, you can actually, you know, have options. Don't find yourself in a situation where you need three things to occur in order for everything to be okay.
[97:24]
B
No. And I love that concept of the best alternative to negotiated arrangement. I think that is so right on. I think I could. I could say for the record that William and I were both housemates at Harvard Law School, and neither of us were valedictorian or salutatorian. But did four.
[97:41]
D
Fine.
[97:42]
B
Billy, Let me ask you one more question. William. There's a question from the audience, and it truly is a question from the audience, and I will. It says, ask William the tough question, like you asked me. Is Indiana football the real thing or not?
[97:59]
K
It's not a tough question. That's actually an easy question. There's a sports writer from Sports Sporting News who I said, I think he said he's done picking against Indiana until they lose. I would answer that by saying I think what Indiana did in football is the most remarkable turnaround, if not in the history of sports, in the history of college football. I don't think number two is close.
[98:24]
B
Anyways, enough of that. Let's move forward. Let me ask each of you, Barry, Holly, Marion, William, what are you most focused on and excited about going forward this year. 30 seconds each.
[98:36]
G
Barry, what I'm excited about is we have an enormous opportunity right now with Respire to, to emerge from the pack and be that company that people point to and say, what is it that they're doing that makes them so special? To me, that would be, that would be a huge victory. And that's what I'm 100% focused on. And we have, we have the team to do it. So that's what, that's my goal.
[99:03]
B
Barry, one last question. Go with that. How many companies have you now run as CEO from private equity sponsored companies you've ran? I know one of them you ran for a very long time with several different sponsors and you went through six or seven different sponsors and this incredible run till an exit for nearly a billion dollars. But how many companies have you ran now with CEO sponsors, with, with private equity sponsors?
[99:24]
G
Eight.
[99:25]
B
Eight. That, that, that is remarkable. Hollywood, what are you most focused on and excited about going into the rest of this year? Next year?
[99:35]
M
Yeah, I'm really excited about AI and kind of the transformation in the legal industry. It's scary, it's exciting, it's a huge transformation. And just looking at where we've come from in the last year to now, things are so incredibly different. And I think personally it's just been incredibly fun and interesting and so there's a lot more change to come. There'll be winners and losers and we're really committed to being a winner in all this. And so I figured we have to talk about AI a little bit because you can't go through a panel without it. So there you have it.
[100:09]
B
Thank you. And Marion, we're watching tremendous growth in your client base, in your firm. What are you most focused on and excited about currently?
[100:17]
L
Well, I think when I think about the opportunity, I'm really excited. But what, what really drives that is right now we have in my mind, the team we have today is the best that we've ever had in terms of the talent. We have people who've come from really big name agencies and in the world of advertising, Dentsu and GSD and M, Martin ep, those are big names and we've attracted those kind of folks here. And our president has really done a great job. Bryant has done a great job job at deepening our bench strength so that we can really effectively present to these larger clients a real solution and bring the, the talent necessary to do the work. And I guess I would be remiss if I didn't say that we have been successful and William has helped me with this in recruiting all three of the Crawford adult children to work here at Crawford. And so as of the last one joined in June, so it's really exciting to have not only these phenomenal teammates who selected and volunteered to work with us, but also our family as well. It's really exciting.
[101:31]
B
It is really remarkable. I was expressing to one of the kids yesterday, I was reading the book House of Fidelity, that remained a family owned business over a very long time and had to balance that with taking care of fantastic partners and colleagues in the business really well, which you are doing and are doing and really fantastic. William, let me ask you the same question. What are you most focused on and excited about currently?
[101:56]
K
Scott, I'm really shocked the other three guys, people didn't get this right. The right answer's got to be reading your book and learning from that book. I mean, that's, that's got to be number one. But the number two, the number two thing for us, which is a bit mundane but very, very real, is the data center development. Not AI per se, but if you recall, we own, we own land and we own an electric utility. So we're able to, you know, marry those two things together to create powered land. And you can take land that's, you know, worth 75,000 bucks an acre in an industrial park and make it 10 to 20 times more valuable. So it's an enormous financial opportunity for our family that we really need to, to take advantage of. And this is kind of. In closing, Scott, let me pick up on one thing that Barry said because I thought it really resonated with me when he was talking about the personal relationships. I remembered something. I don't know who said this, but it really, what Barry said reminded me of. People don't ever remember what you said, but they remember how you made them feel. And I think that's something that we as CEOs can think about a lot, is that people won't ever remember exactly what we told them, but we can, we can. They'll remember whether we made them feel valued and, you know, a part of the team.
[103:12]
B
I, I love that. I want to thank the four of you. Each of you are fantastic and it's a great pleasure to visit with you. And thank you so much for joining us. Holly Buckley, Barry Tanner, Marion Crawford, William Crawford. I want to thank all of you for joining us. A real pleasure to get to visit with you and thank you so much. And we'll lead on to our next panel in just one moment. I'll do one simple housekeeping Note, I want to take special thanks to Rosa McKenzie who's helping manage today, Lauren Eskenazi who did a tremendous job with audience development for this effort. We had nearly 450, 475 people registered for this CEO summit as well as a special thank you to Michelle Byers Robson and team and Jessica Joliff and Cosette Benjamin. So, so thank you all for all of your efforts. Let's move on to our next panel. We'll go for about 30 to 35 minutes. We've got our, our last panel which is actually just a magnificent group of speakers and thinkers and so excited to have you on. Thank you so much. We've got four leaders with you. With us. I see Caitlin's eye. There we go. Kaitlin Zula, David Shull, Brian Parker as well as Julie Claf. Tremendous group. I'll ask each of you to introduce yourself. Caitlyn, I'll start with you if you could take a moment to both introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your organization. I've known you for a long time. You were a leader at SEO Health and Optum and just one of the great leaders I've had a chance to visit with over the years. Take a moment and introduce yourself. Then I'll ask Julie Claf who's brilliant, David Scholl is fantastic and Brian Parker along to partner introduce themselves as well. Caitlin, let me start with you.
[105:07]
A
Awesome. Yes, thank you Scott. So honored to be here today. Thank you for the invite. Caitlin Zula, I'm CEO of Lumexa Imaging. Lumexa is one of the country's largest outpatient diagnostic imaging companies. You know, for context, we have have approximately 185 centers, we're in 13 states and we have a growing number of health system joint venture partnerships. I've been in this role for 18 months and then as you mentioned previously, I was CEO of Surgical Care Affiliates or SCA Health and then CEO of Optum Health in the East. Really excited to talk about scale. Lumexa started as a private equity backed collection of strong local businesses and the journey over the last 18 months has to really create a truly national scaled organization. But of course, as we all know, healthcare is rooted in our local relationships, right? So it's all about also preserving the local relationships and the clinical excellence that's made the businesses successful in the communities we're honored to serve. Last year we entered the public markets in December and certainly we've been focusing on continuing to build out our footprint through new sites, de novos, acquisitions New health system partnerships. We just signed a joint venture with HSS Hospital for Special Surgery. And then of course, just continuing to focus on how do we scale technology partnerships to make high quality imaging accessible, affordable, and then always patient centered.
[106:38]
B
And Kaitlyn, take a second. On scale. You've had this tremendous growth in scale since you've been there and you've watched different things scale over the course of your career. What are a couple of the things because so many of us struggle to really scale organizations, we get to a certain spot and it's very hard to scale systems and people and so forth. What are, when you think about scaling, what are a couple things that a CEO that a leadership team has to do to scale correctly and to grow, you know, well, maintaining, you know, margin. You know, as the old adage goes, there's no margin without mission. But how do you scale effectively? What are a few of the thoughts on that?
[107:19]
A
Yeah, gosh, you know, there's this concept that we talk about a bunch at Lumexa and certainly did at sca around S curves, right. And the concept that as you continue to go up the curve, your leadership model has to change and the behaviors that, that create that early momentum, moving quickly, staying close to every decision, personally solving problems that can eventually become a constraint. And so as I think through at scale, the CEO's job, my job is to create clarity. It's all about building strong leaders. I very much think team is everything and then establish the systems that produce good decisions without you, that singular leader needing to be in every room. We talk a lot about trust. One concept that I think about and talk about to my team a lot is the concept of say, do ratio. If you say it, you need to do it. And that culture around doing what you say you're going to do, building trust, having that consistency that matters always. But I think even more during periods of high growth and change, when teams are looking for that clarity and stability.
[108:32]
B
Thank you very, very much. Julie, tell us a bit, introduce yourself and talk a bit about your journey. You're an investor in several different companies through a private equity fund versus a leader. But you see so much of leadership. Just for the record, there's several Harvard graduates on the call today. Julie is by, by far the smartest of all of those. But Julie, take a second and introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what you're most focused on this year and then we'll talk later on some of you know what you see in the leaders in the companies that you're building.
[109:10]
N
Sure. Nice to Meet everyone. I'm Julie Clath. I'm a partner at Origami Capital Partners, which is a Chicago based private equity firm. We focus on, on credit oriented investments. Really special fits across a variety of different industries and sectors and across the capital stack. But I like to think of it as we're providing creative liquidity solutions for other sponsors, so other private equity funds and their portfolio companies. My background, like Scott said, I'm a lawyer by training. I spent several years in the private funds division at Sidley Austin here in Chicago, which was great training for what I'm doing now, which is more investment side focused. And it was actually how I connected with the current firm that I'm at. I was one of their outside lawyers and after I'd worked for them for a number of years, they approached me about coming over in kind of a joint hybrid legal and investment side role, which over the last 12 years, I've been there since 2014, has really transitioned more to investment side. And I'm on the firm's executive committee in our investment committee and really running deal execution across our platform. But as Scott said, you know, on a look through basis, our portfolio, which is just over a billion dollars, has probably 50 plus different companies as part of that portfolio. And our level of involvement in each company ranges a lot. You know, some we are in control of, some we are just getting quarterly reporting on and kind of everything in between. But Scott, as you highlighted, it's been a great opportunity to see a lot of different leaders across a lot of different types of businesses at different points in scale. Right. Some earlier in the life cycle, some at scale and global companies and sort of understanding what it takes to get
[111:01]
B
there and take a moment on that. When you see companies that you're invested in or side by side with sponsors in and things are going right, what do you see that's going right? What are the hallmarks of companies where they're, where they're performing and it's going well?
[111:19]
N
Yeah, I mean, something that Caitlin said I think resonated a lot with me, which is that people are everything. Right. And I would much rather have a C company with a people than an A company with C people. And so I think where you see things going right is where you have, you know, good people. There's, there's no substitute for a bad person or someone that, you know, isn't going to do the right thing, but where you have the right people and the right spots and where you're willing to make a change, you know, if that's not the case. And I think a lot of times people wait too long. And we've been guilty of this both internally and externally, right? Both internally within our own private equity fund and both externally with, at the board level, making changes at certain portfolio companies. Because you know what Caitlin said is right. What you need going from 0 to 10 million of revenue is very different than what you need going from 10 to 25 and 25 to 50 and so on and so on. And so making sure you have the right people in the right places, I think is number one. And the processes and the systems that follow that are also an important piece of it. But I think nothing is more important
[112:29]
B
than the people and making a change in the CEO of a portfolio company. How hard is that for a private equity investor? How challenging is that situation and how unfun is that situation?
[112:43]
N
I would say it's hard and it's unfun. But I will say that whenever we have had the instinct that it needs to be done, at some point, it always becomes the thing that is done. And it often, in hindsight is a situation of why didn't we do this sooner and why did we wait so long? And we were not smart for waiting as long as we did. And so almost universally, regardless of industry, regardless of sector, regardless of where we sit in the capital structure, when you have that instinct that you need to make a change, and I'm not saying you don't give people a chance and it's like one and done and someone makes a mistake, right? Mistakes are part of life and they're meant to be learned from. But when you get that sense that, that the leader is not the right leader in the company, it can be very challenging. But it's often sort of a necessary
[113:36]
B
change and there's a lot of inertia there to want to make that change, there's a lot of conflict often when you make that change unless that leader is really ready to go. There is so much conflict and challenge there, but so needed. And I love your thought that once you instinctually think it probably has to happen, that thought process often doesn't reverse itself over time. It usually continues on. Brian, let me turn to you. I had a chance to work with you for a decade plus. Love getting a chance to visit with you and work with you, take a moment and talk a little bit about what you do and some of the roles that you fill today.
[114:12]
N
Brian.
[114:13]
F
Oh, definitely. Hey, first of all, Scott, thank you. It's always good to get back together with a good friend from A long time ago. I love some Scott Bob. Some Scott Becker. You know I'm a partner with Parker, Poe, Adams and Bernstein Southeastern super regional law firm. You know I've developed kind of like a trusted advisor practice where I work day in and day out with CEOs, CFOs and boards of directors across different industries. In terms of scaling, it goes back to, you know, my early days with Scott at McGuire woods and creating and building the first industry group which was the life science group at the firm. Then going to market as a law firm back in the early 2000s as an industry group sort of focused marketing effort was something was unheard of. We did things by practice groups, we did things by departments. And for a young 36 year old equity partner to go in front of the executive committee of 100am law firm and convince them to do things different and for it actually to work out was when I first started to scale organizations and to take that mentality out into the workplace. I think back then Scott, if you remember we took that industry group from 5 million to 30 million in revenue and then just replicated that throughout the the firm and different industry group focuses. Our focus was on life sciences back then. Mine was pharmaceutical company, medical device companies and biotech companies. Created great relationships of trust with key leaders in the industry. Transplanted that same sort of mentality to the firm I'm with now, Parker Poe and then I kind of coupled it with my desire to really engage in board service and impact investing and it became a conduit to working across different types of industries, not just life science industries. So things like sas, automation, vertical farming, integrated wealth management services, health care. So I get in my day to day I can be a business trusted advisor for the law firm at the same time be a leader within pre series A post series A and sometimes more mature corporations at the board level and an impact vestor working with senior executive leader teams and also founders. So it's a, it's a good mix of understanding sort of those key just not typical board issues beyond risk and regulatory and compensation but more scaling and commercialization. So that's what keeps me busy these, these days in, in terms of scaling and, and growing in this economy of our Scottish.
[117:00]
B
Thank you Brian and take one moment on if you had to point to one thing that you're most excited about currently. Where are you most focused and excited currently?
[117:08]
F
Every day I get to work with these, these young companies that are growing in different segments and it might sound a little cliche but it is really directed. It's so fascinating what these young leadership teams are doing. Enclosed LLM models coupled with like imagination and creativity. I've seen it in the vertical farming space, I've seen it in the SaaS space. I've seen it in integrated wealth management space. It's amazing what these tiny teams are doing and how they're changing sort of the culture and the platform of growth in our capital markets.
[117:47]
B
Thank you very, very much. David, you are nothing but a force of nature. You're president of Russo Partner. You're about the most connected person that I know. Give the audience a little bit of an intro. And you do so many things beyond what a traditional sort of what public relations firm does. I mean, you're involved in so many things as a deep institutional partner. Talk about what you do, what Russo Partners does.
[118:13]
O
Well, first off, I appreciate being in the cleanup spot here and following Brian Parker is an honor. I feel that's a Pittsburgh contact right there. You gotta love it. So Resale Partners, it's a boutique public relations firm and strategic consultancy. My team members, and we have 26 are primarily scientists, PhDs, we have PhD MDs playing off of Brian's talk of life Sciences. In your healthcare practice that you built in law, we did the same thanks to my business partner, Chairman Tony Russo. Our client roster is comprised mostly of emerging healthcare companies, biopharmaceuticals, medical devices, diagnostics and healthcare services. So I've crossed paths with Scott many times. Because of your publications as well as the work you do in providing counsel. The majority of our work is focused on creating the profiles to support corporate initiatives which are fundraising, business development, recruitment and retention. On occasion we have clients with marketed products and so you can call it sales support. But we're known for corporate reputation building, for multi pronged public relations and investor relations strategies. And because we've been doing this, the agency was born in 1988 with my partner with 40 plus years. I have 31 years of experience. We're well known and well connected in the industry.
[119:40]
B
Scott and T, at what point did you decide to be all in on sort of pharma biotech and so forth? Because I see you in those sectors. And is it entirely pharma biotech? I mean I see you with startup public companies, public companies all the way across that spectrum with really bright people and so many interesting different initiatives. I see you with Lee Steinberg recently, who's fascinating. I had a chance to interview with former NFL player that works with you. Solomon Wilcox, correct?
[120:14]
F
Yeah.
[120:14]
B
Talk a little bit about how did you End up in the niche. And are you entitled in the niche?
[120:20]
O
So let's talk about our focus. We are 95% focused on healthcare. We do some technology work because of relationships that we've established over the years with chief technology officers. One of my close friends, Rob Strickland, was the chief technology officer at a little company known as T Mobile. But it's primarily health care. The agency was born when Tony Russo, back in the 80s, was working at a large firm in New York City, and he and a partner, Susan Noonan, decided to focus exclusively on healthcare because of their passion for it. If you think about it, the connecting here is we're helping people. So by working in the healthcare industry, we know that we can indirectly and directly impact our own health, our future, and those of the generations after us. So it's very rewarding to work with individuals who are developing the new cancer treatments, the medical devices, those who are providing the health care services. Now, the industry has changed. The evolution since the beginning is obvious, but we are clearly focused on this space. And with that, we have a network that's extensive. Now, I'm one of the older statesmen in the industry and I'm proud of it because I was at a CEO conference for biotech executives in Napa Valley. You saw me there a few weeks ago with Lee Steinberg. That was all peer to peer learning. We're in a closed room. We could discuss challenges that the CEOs of public and private biotech companies address. And so that's our niche.
[121:55]
B
Let me ask you this question, David, because I've seen you do this over a long period of time. I mean, aside from raising fantastic children who I've had a chance to visit with, one of which is a pro pickleball player now, one of which is a financial person who's just fantastic. But you've also maintained this tremendous energy over a long period of time, which I think is so important for CEOs and leaders. How do you do that? How do you take care of yourself so that you're able to show off up in the way that you constantly show up? I have a high energy level. Your energy level intimidates me.
[122:29]
O
It comes from the sports background from 40 years ago. But anyway, first off, what the driving value for me and for my teammates is passion. And so if you look at the values that we have at Russo, and we hire against them and we evaluate against them as part of performance, performance reviews, one of the values that stands out is passion. I say it now, we do this because we care and because we enjoy it. I'm sure the majority of the individuals here, I've looked at your backgrounds, we do it for the same reason. And with that passion, we get excited about the opportunity to help. So how do we do it and sustain it? Again, there's no retirement in sight for me. Or maybe my business is partners in several years. But because we enjoy the opportunity to work with people in health care and to connect them to investors, to connect them to the media, to help them, we're more than a public relations consultancy. The network is extensive. The area that you see me in that's fun is sports health. So all of us know that the intersection of sports and health is one that's obvious. And when you look at who gets the best treatment, if Tom Brady is injured, then I'm sure that Caitlin up in New England back in the day would say, if Tom had that surgical procedure, I'm having the same. So through my classmate and teammate at University of Colorado, Solomon Wilcox, 10 years ago, we created a sports health alliance to support healthcare initiatives for multiple clients.
[124:01]
B
Scott, thank you very, very much. Let me move back to Caitlin and then Julie and then Brian and you. 30 seconds or a minute, Caitlin. Best advice for CEOs. When you think about giving advice to another CEO, and doubtless you talk to lots of other CEOs, plus you mentored lots of leaders in the organizations that you run. Best advice for CEOs.
[124:27]
A
Gosh. So I probably have two. The first one being honor what got you here, but don't idolize it. As Julie said, the concept of the successful company reaches a point where that strength that powered you to that first chapter aren't sufficient for the next one. And I think that awareness around
[124:48]
J
how
[124:49]
A
do you evolve the team, the systems, protect the culture before there's an obvious crisis. And then the second one, I think, is as you're leading organizations through those transformation times of transformation and, and growth, you have to lead with clarity and with empathy and with purpose. And then, you know, protecting that culture. You know, I think transformation brings uncertainty and, you know, people have different levels of excitement or anxiety around change. And so just the paramount of how do you make sure you're communicating with a clear vision and very importantly, explaining the why behind the, you know, the change. And then, you know, I think orienting in your mission, right? Individuals, you know, people, they don't, they don't necessarily need direction. They need to feel connected to the mission and they need to understand their role in shaping the future. And then, you know, through it all, never Losing sight of that culture. You know, the culture is the foundation that determines, you know, whether. Whether the transformation takes root and endures.
[125:56]
B
And talk about it a second. And Julie mentioned as well, the founder, the CEO of a $10 million company making that transition to a 50 to $100 million company. You know, there's this old adage, I think it was Marshall Goldsmith adage, what got you there won't get you here. What got you here won't get you there. Whatever the exact phrase is. But those are such different skill sets. That person that gruesomely to 10 million is very different than somebody who could systematically operationalize things. I mean, you know, Amber Walsh. Well, I had helped build the practice. Amber was so much better at sort of managing the people, growing it to scale and nurturing people and those kinds of things. You see different from one level to the next level. How do you think about that with CEOs, with leaders and getting rethinking, Think differently from firestarter to grower? How do you think about that?
[126:52]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a part where not every person is the right person for every chapter of a company. I am 18 months into Lumexa. Lumexa started with an investment from Welsh Carson in 2018. I am probably more like Amber. As I was leaving OptumHealth, obviously a gigantic enterprise, I was talking to different VC firms and private equity about what would come next. And I knew I wasn't the sort of person to start with something very small. But what I loved was taking something that had size and scale to it. LeMax is over a billion in revenue. And thinking through how do we take these pieces and optimize them for the next chapter? So I think it's very different skill set. And I think having that understanding of what, you know, intrinsically, what motivates you as a CEO, and then what are the skill sets you need around you? And of course, you know, honoring the amazing people who were able to get Lumexa from, you know, the first three chapters. But also having the, you know, understanding that they not might not be the next person or the right person to take it for the, you know, the next five chapters.
[128:04]
B
Thank you. And Julie, following up with the same question and best advice for founders and also with your different companies, as you see CEOs, founders or CEOs, best advice, as you see different CEOs that were great through one chapter, can they be coached to be great to the next chapter? Or is it at some point where there's a natural need for change in the company's leadership, or is it case by case?
[128:32]
N
I think it's case by case. And I'll come back to that. You know, I think some people can be coached and some people can't be coached. And often founders, I find, have a harder time being coached than someone who's been brought into the role. I think there's just less emotional attachment from someone who's brought in a CEO versus someone who started something from the get go. But I think advice I'd give to portfolio company CEOs and advice I think that we've kind of lived by at Origami is to hire people that are both smarter than you are or at a minimum, maybe balance you out in different ways. I have two partners at Origami, and we are very, very different. Right. And we serve very different kind of roles and personalities within our organizations and can balance each other out in terms of both the things that we're good at, but also just some of our personality traits around flexibility and, you know, kind of how we relate to other people. The other piece of advice, you know, I'd give to CEOs, and we've had to take this under advisement as well, is to kind of know the difference between having grit and determination and knowing when it's time to pivot. Right? And you have to find the right balance there. Right. As a CEO, you have to be relentless. And you can't just throw your hands up and give up. Up, Right. Just because something doesn't work the first time. But if you continue to run into a brick wall, like again and again and again, you gotta have the clarity at some point to say, all right, this isn't working.
[130:02]
M
Right?
[130:02]
N
And you know, we don't like at my own organization right now, in private equity, the mantra has always been bigger is better. Grow fund size, grow aum. And that's gotten a lot harder in the last five years, right. Ever since post Covid. And we can go down that rabbit hole if you want to, but I think at a certain point, we kind of had to look around and say, maybe bigger isn't better. Maybe being smaller and more nimble for a period of time is better. Turn inward, focus on asset management, find our biggest and most important platforms, and really give the time and attention to those and grow those. And maybe that's the future. And that wasn't for a lack of really trying for a period of time.
[130:44]
B
And, Julie, let me ask you this question. When you look across the 50 portfolio companies that you've invested in over time, without mentioning names of people. When you think about the characteristics of the best CEOs, the best leaders, I'm sure some come to mind. What were those things that they did differently, that they did really well that made them so successful?
[131:07]
N
I think the number one thing is being able to see someone else's perspective and to not be too dug in and convinced of like whatever you think is the only way, you know, you see people that are like, my way is the highway and if you don't get behind me, then you're no longer part of this. But I think that the CEOs that I've seen be the most successful can obviously have confidence in their decision making capabilities and the path that they're leading the organization around, but they're able to listen. And if someone around the table has an idea, whether it's at the board level or their CFO or their chief revenue officer, whoever it is can say something to them that may undermine an idea that they have. And the most successful CEOs are the ones that can sit there and, you know, tolerate some level of criticism, but use that constructively and use that to take them forward, down, you know, a slightly new path, or, you know, take it in a positive way. The people that have failed are the people that have very limited flexibility.
[132:17]
B
Love that and thank you. Brian. You've worked with a ton of different leaders and CEOs. Your best advice for founders and CEOs,
[132:26]
F
you know, I think to keep it simple, Keep close to your customer. Really, really know your customer. The things that I've seen through board, service, impact investing and being a trusted advisor is they lose their way because they, they've lost what they're doing. They don't know who they're really dealing with. They have an idea who their customer is. It changes, you know, it evolves over time. Stay close to the market, stay close to the product fit. I always really emphasize that. And then one of my pet peeves too, I always give like this stupid little speech when I sit down whenever, like first founder, whether I'm looking to make an investment or I'm looking and I've been asked to join the board, you know, I always ask them like, what is your decision making process? So the lawyer in me goes through, you know, the fiduciary duty of loyalty and care and well informed decisions, you know, after, you know, reasonable consultant with experts. But at the end of the day, a business is a series of processes, right? And everybody knows on this call, like a decision has to be made almost Every hour, hour or every other hour. And how you make those decisions, they always don't have to be the right ones, but they definitely do have to be the well informed ones for the time parameter and where the company sits, but even more importantly, the cadence of decisions. So I've seen the situation where, you know, you could have two very similar corporations on pathways in different industries, but you have a, a better decision making process with one leadership team or one founder as opposed to the other, and it can be detrimental to the health of the company. So those are some of the things that often come into mind when I talk about giving advice.
[134:09]
B
And Brian, let me ask the same question I asked Julie. You worked with lots of different CEOs, lots of different leaders. When you think about the best leaders you've worked with, or even thinking about one or two, what are the things you see that they're doing that are different than others? What do you see that they do particularly well?
[134:30]
F
You know, I think that beyond you, one of my favorite leaders is Jamie Dimon. And you know, he has this quote, you know, you never accomplish anything great alone. And the amount of time that a leader I think needs to put into team development, building resilient teams over time and being agile and how that that product or that service is delivered is, is the one thing I really think distinguishes great founders from good founders. Right. And helps them make that transition from a founder led corporation to an executive executive team with systems. Going forward, it's, it's always a selfless act, but it's always about building the best and the talented teams that in my opinion, separate one set of founders to great founders.
[135:22]
B
No, I love that. And I've had a chance to work with lots of different CEOs over the years. The only thing I could say that I love is like when I watch Barry Tanner was still on, I sort of know how he's going to lead and this is how he does it. And it's a real positive. We've seen Kaitlin Zula in several different roles and sort of see this is how Kalyn operates. And for people that are in those organizations, that kind of consistent, that kind of clarity is so helpful for an organization that I really admire it. Whereas other leaders, you have no idea which person showing up that day or what their leadership style is. And that's never a great thing. And I actually love Brian's reference to Jamie Dimon because I do think he's one of the best of this generation and has been steadfast and principled over A very long period of time. And I love that. David, you've worked with a lot of founders. You're a president yourself. Best advice for leaders, for CEOs, what advice do you give other CEOs and leaders?
[136:25]
O
I'm not going to talk about the core leadership traits because those are typically the obvious. But what's critical that we see is building the corporate culture. That's one of your most important responsibilities. And there are three areas in prepping for this that I took note notes on. Number one is talent matching, which means that think about it as the CEO of the Chicago Bears. Scott, if that were you or Beckers, you have to be the owner, the general manager and the coach combined. So putting the best people in the roles where they can succeed, where do they add the most value. But then you also have to act efficiently and make changes when things aren't working and those in decisions that are critical to the success of the team. Something that we talk about at Russo Partners is the term psychological safety. I know it sounds as it's a two words. It's a lot, but it's actually not. We want to create as leaders a safe space where the individuals on our team, they can question what we're doing, they can share bad news and we can learn from these mistakes together. There shouldn't be fear of making mistakes because we have to continue to innovate. And the most important trait that we find, and we see this in the good leaders who are mentors. Empathy. Empathy is critical. Listen to the team members. Treat them and everybody with whom we interact with respect. That's something critical to us. And you'll see it whether we're checking into the hotel in Chicago with a front desk clerk or if we're at a meeting with executives discussing the next financial the round of financing. So these are the things that we talk about in our meetings.
[138:11]
B
You mentioned that last one and I love that you see people in business or in personal life treat some people with the kind of like way that you would never want to see people treated. And there's and it reflects on them so poorly. And you think about them like that. Then like the person who treats the waiter poorly. The person who treats, you know, there was, you know, we played golf at some place and sometime this weekend somebody fired their caddy for making bad reads. I mean, are you kidding me? It's just horrible abhorrent behavior.
[138:44]
O
I have another example. So when I was at the meeting in Napa, we had a UN like roundtable set up with microphones among 65 of us and then a panel. We had a brilliant executive who contributed throughout the discussion. But when he lost a personal item, he got into an argument with the waitstaff which immediately reflected negatively on him and our perceptions of him for inviting him back. And I say we treat everybody with the greatest respect because they have their family members and more. And that's what we teach our teachers.
[139:18]
B
David, one other question, and I've seen this because I've been introducing them by you. You work with big biotech companies, small biotech companies, sometimes the sort of creators, drivers of these small biotech companies are really interesting people. Some of them are really sort of driven, insane smart and so forth. How do you then build the culture around someone like that? When you've got some of these people that are crazily brilliant entrepreneurs, but also, you know, can be really interesting to difficult people, how do you then build a culture around them and with them so that they don't become outsized in that. Well, their energy and intelligence is such a small, an important part of building that.
[140:04]
O
Well, we see this regularly, as you mentioned, and the reality is that we can provide counsel on a type of, of team structure and make recommendations of who can fit complementary teammates. That's what works best. We're not looking for somebody who's identical in personality and operating style to a scientific founder. And with our business, many of the individuals are scientific founders and they don't have any relevant and specific business leadership experience. So we look at building teams and making recommendations so we see fully complementary team structures and that's how it works. Also, training is key. I heard Brian and others bring it up. Our firm spent two and a half days, as we do every July in our off site. And what we say to the staffers, including those who are in their 30s, some who are in their 20s, is this is an opportunity to shape the future. In a big organization, you don't have that opportunity. What we do is handed down to us. So we're giving you the opportunity to buy in early because we value your input. These are the lessons. And I just want to say I know before we go, Scott, your book is phenomenal. It should be all of our pleasure to book Scott for book tour appearances, just as I'm helping Lee Steinberg, who's a personal friend. I need to schedule Scott Becker as a book presenter, an autograph signer, and I'm going to do that, Scott, because we love working with you, as does everybody on this call.
[141:37]
F
I totally agree with David. I finished the book over the weekend, sent Scott, a little note. It reminded me of the good old days at McGuire Woods. That is great.
[141:47]
B
I appreciate that so much and thankful for all of you joining us. I did have something that somebody had just asked the question about being a great leader. And, and I love this and I'll reference back to what I just said about Caitlin and Barry and I am more of an entrepreneur than a great leader. They're two very different things. But when I watch Caitlin and Barry, one of the things I love about their leadership style, somebody asked this reputation of being a great leader and how does somebody maintain that over a long time? And when I look at Caitlin and Barry in their roles and what they do and many other on this call would hit that same same spot. Tom Malwood would be very similar, you know, and others too. It's this constant consistency in how they approach things over a long period of time with a calmer temperament than I personally have. So I don't I look at myself as more entrepreneur than great leader. But I, but I look at people like Caitlin, Barry, Tom Marion, several others on the call that I really think of in that category, that ability to drive things forward and maintain that temperament, which I think is an incredible, incredible talent. And some of us are, we're just built. Others are built differently. So in building organizations, personally I was able to build organization certain spots and I had to turn over the role of CEO to other people by choice, not by somebody forcing me to do so because they were better at that next level of really maintaining that leadership and growing. And I think it's a fascinating thing to watch. So I really love watching different people, different types of leaders. I want to thank all of you. For me, it's a great pleasure. I know each of you closely from different avenues of life and professional life. Julie Claft, Brian Parker, Kaitlyn Zula, David Shull, what a pleasure to visit with all of you. I want to thank each of you for joining us. If people want to stay on the phone or on the webinar, we'll wrap up with 15 minutes on 10 key business and leadership concepts. Hopefully they won't put people to sleep, but we are so thankful we'll have our next sort of. We've got a webinar coming up September 10th based on the book you're welcome to On Leadership Business Concepts. People are welcome to register for that. More importantly, we'll have our next CEO and Founders Business Leadership Summit in February and we'll start putting together the agenda for that in not too long. But for me, a great Pleasure. No sponsors, no nothing. A great pleasure to visit with people and stay inspired. And I hope people come away with this. A little inspired, a little motivated, both our audience and we hope, our panelists as well. 14 great panelists, all of which I know well. So thankful to have you on. A great pleasure. Thank you so much.
[144:44]
O
Let's Brian, work on the US national tour of building great businesses. By the way, Beckers. When people, when we talk in healthcare circles about Beckers, we hear nothing but, you know Scott Becker. How do you know Becker? And I'm being honest with you, Scott, people love it. The respect for the brands that, that you've built as an entrepreneur in healthcare, they go a long way. So kudos to Scott for hosting us and everybody here. We look forward to connecting offline too.
[145:16]
B
Thank you. The real kudos go to my partner and CEO Jess Cole, who took what I started and Barry knows this because Barry Tanner used to sit on our board and built it into a much larger organization where she's able to maintain that culture that we want to have of responsiveness in doing things that audiences want, taking care of our sponsors and custom customers. So thank you so much. Thank you for the fine, nice comments. We'll let you all go if people want to stay on. We'll give people about 10, 15 minutes on building great businesses, leadership and business concepts. But, but thank you so much for joining us. What a pleasure to have all of you on. Just fantastic. Our next larger summit like this will be in February for founders, CEOs and entrepreneurs. I'm going to talk briefly through 10 business and leadership concepts that we talk about all the time, whether with CEOs, with companies that are starting up, with companies I serve on the board of and a lot more and things that we've watched over time. So let me go through 10 key concepts. First is the concept of this. We think about the five phases of a business. And for people that are doing startups or starting a business, we always think about there's this first phase is somebody has an idea. And again, I don't want to downplay the concept of an idea, but ideas are sort of like there are a billion different ideas out there. I don't view ideas as meaningless. And obviously some people come up with very big ideas. But, but at the end of the idea is the very starting point and if not meaningless, we view it as close to meaningless. The second concept we think about is someone that's taken an idea and this is more focused on founders, of course, as part of this discussion than it is on CEOs and leaders. But the next phase is someone that's taken an idea to product or service. And this jump that you've actually developed a product or service differentiates you down that funnel from literally thousands and thousands and thousands to hundreds of thousands of people. You've actually taken it to product or service. So you're beyond idea. The third phase, and this is the phase that starts to count. And I get approached constantly for people on investing or being an advisor, and this is really about the first question I ask them is where they're at on this sort of continuum of building a business. Have they actually got revenues? And revenues may be a dollar, they may be a million, they may be a hundred million. But the fact that you've started to get revenues, assuming you're not sort of the kids lemonade stand, is a huge differentiator to you have something that people might actually want or not that this isn't just a hobby, it's actually potentially a business. The next two phases we think about our profit and scale. In most businesses at some point, the next step is to go from idea to product to revenue to profits. And the idea being once you actually get the cash flow positive to profits, you could actually invest and grow a business. And that often means investing more in team members and growing out your team. The contrast is if you're venture capital funded and truly venture capital funded, the phases phase four and five are often going to be in reverse order that you're really trying to scale as much as you can, as quick as you can, profit secondary. And at some point when you plateau on scale, then you've got to look at, okay, how do you make this profitable? I've seen so many people criticize that a venture capital funded, oh, they grew to this amount of money, they stopped growing and they cut a lot of their team. Not good or bad. But that's often by design to get to a certain size and then right size to make sure you actually could be a profitable company. At that point we think about the five phases of a business. Idea to product or service to revenue to profit to scale. And again, huge differentiation from those companies that are just sort of an idea or a product or service to actual revenues. One of my favorite things to talk about is, is I'll give you two of them. One is don't ask your friends whether it's a good idea. So for example, so many people in building a business spend so much time talking to their friends, their colleagues, people that are family about is it a good idea or not. And what I find is that those people would be far better off actually talking to customers, do they want to buy the product or service or not? You could talk to 100 friends that tell you it's a great idea. And that to me is essentially meaningless. Actually getting out there and talking to customers and finding do they want what you're selling, can you get to revenues, can you get to sales, is far more important than talking to 100 different buddies, 100 different friends about is this a good idea? And we've come to the conclusion, we've come to almost a hardcore conclusion. Don't talk to your friends about your business idea, at least not for real guidance and real advice. Talk to your potential customers about your business ideas. That's one the five phases of business. And don't talk to your friends. The second concept we talk about in business is the evolution of the founder. And we talk about this again in three stages. The first phase of most founder owned businesses is the founders, essentially the coach, the bottle washer, they sort of do everything. They're the jack of all trades. That's the first stage of a business. The second stage of a business for a founder is he or she starts to hire people. But those people leverage the founder. They don't necessarily take the founder and the business further. And the big differentiation between stage two and stage three is often the quality of people that you're hiring, the quality of people that you're putting on your team. The first phase, you get to 2x, you've hired people and they're really leveraging you. You're still directing almost too much of what's going on. The third phase of a founder is you've hired people where, how we like to talk about this, everybody running a department, everybody running an area is better than you could run that area. And that's not false humility. That's where you stop being the limiting step in everything that you're doing in a business. That's what we think of as the third phase of a founder, the evolution of a founder, where you are no longer the limiting step. I remember years ago talking to a private equity fund. It was Thomas H. Lee at the time, a large fund. And they talked about the fact that I'd be sitting on my phone 10 years ago, signing off on every newsletter, going out every morning, and a very bright person at Thomas H. Lee said, this brilliant guy said, you can't run a business like that in the long run. And we already had 100 employees or so, but it's like, you got to get yourself out of being the limiting step on stuff. And when you really build the business, you really evolve as a founder. The really hard part about this is great businesses have a founder that is dispensable. You want to be dispensable as a founder over time, not indispensable. And this is something where I think about this. Dispensable versus indispensable. Being indispensable is really good for the ego. Being dispensable is really good for the business. I mean, the best things I ever did personally in businesses, I serve at a board now where I see a business has done a similar thing, they've turned over the CEO spot to somebody who's really the right person for that next level. For me, it was turning over the leadership of the law practice when we were a, you know, $50 million business to Amber Walsh. It was me a long time ago turning over the CEO spot at Becker's Healthcare to Jessica Cole. Barry Tanner was served on our board at that point. So he, he was very familiar with that evolution and, and how we did that. But those are very hard on the ego of the founder. But the whole goal is to make yourself dispensable as a, as a, as a founder. Indispensable is great for the ego. Dispensable is great for the business in two different things. The third concept we talk about in business is if you're going to really grow, you need a couple absolutely great leaders and great customers if you're going to accelerate. Great, great people, we call them ride or die people. You need to early on recognize who those people are. You need to be constantly in front of them and helping them thrive and thrive with you. And second is you need a couple great customers that sort of both you can grow with, that you could learn from and that the other parties in the industry look at and say you must be good at what you do if you're working really closely with this company in the healthcare business, the media business, this company, the legal business, or whatever business that you're in. So that's the third concept we think about. Fourth concept, and so many of these play together is the best leaders that I know are CEOs that really know their own business. They know what works. They constantly double down on what works. And this is not just customers, this is people. This is product line, service lines. The best people that I know in business, they really know their own business. I had sat down with a couple emerging leaders yesterday, brilliant young people. And the thing that I was taken away with. The best thing that I got from it was I asked them, who are your top 10 customers? They were able, without looking at spreadsheets to say, these are the top 10 customers. And that's what I look for in leaders and people. Do they know their business really well? Do they know their people really well? And then you spend a disproportionate amount of time with your best people, your best leaders, your best, your best service lines. The worst thing I see in business is you got this thing going incredibly well and you have somebody that wants to spend all their time on this thing out here. That's 5% of the business because they feel like they have to shore that up. They feel like they've got to grow that. And what I really look for in people that really know their business is that you're really doubling down on what's working. The right people, the right customers, the right service lines, and you're almost abandoning or forgetting about the other things. The most successful things that I do periodically are determine which initiatives to abandon, which ones to double down on. So that's the fourth concept is really know your business, really track what's working and what's not working and go from there. The fifth concept we think about great businesses are built around a handful of really elite people. Great, great leaders. Great. And then they've got a ton of people that are 90 percenters that are great at doing what they do. They do their job every day. They're highly reliable, they're very important. We call this love your 90 percenters. One of the worst things I've seen in business is managers, CEOs, leaders that take very good people. Think of them as your A minus, B plus people. I call them 90 percenters that are so that they spend so much time getting after the people about the 5% they don't do right. And what, what I want our managers, our leaders to do, I want them to be never gun shy in hiring. Some hires are going to go right, some are going to go wrong. But more importantly, if they've got people that are 90% or better at doing their job and what they do, we want to cherish and appreciate those people and almost abandon worrying about the 5% they don't do well unless that's something we really think they could fix or something that will make a difference in their career. But we almost want to ignore that. A similar concept we talk about, again, it's this mix of totally elite players plus 90 percenters. Another thing I talk about is I've served on several boards of directors of companies and, you know, in a couple of them that are with us today. And what I've seen in great companies is there are several a players in leadership at the company, several great leaders. So I know when I worked very closely with Tom or Barry on their boards, there were several people around them that were great leaders, not just them. The flip side, I've served on boards where there's a supernova in the organization, one supernova in the organization. And what I find in those organizations is they ultimately burn out because you can't have just one supernova Nova person. You need lots of great leaders around you. And it's this concept of building teams. It's this concept of having, you know, there's this old adage, sevens hire fives. And any leader, any CEO, has to reverse that adage. They need to hire people and have people around them that are as good as better as they are. And it's this concept of building deep leadership teams with lots of great people, not just one supernova. And I've seen both. The next concept we talk about in business is this concept of don't listen to the naysayers. Just like you can't listen to your friends about is an idea, a good idea, is a business, a good business. And the reason we say that is what you have to listen to is your customers, your potential customers. And in many businesses, we see many people, particularly in software businesses, technology businesses get very obsessed with building the product and not talking to customers. So when I've served on the boards or advisory boards of technology companies, we're very big on the concept of commercialize. Very early, very early on, you need to be testing things with customers, you need to be talking to customers. So just like you can't ask your best friends or your friends, is it a good business idea? You have to ask customers. You also can't do this. You can't listen to the naysayers. Any business that I've ever really got going in, ever really started, I've had really bright people tell me that it's a bad idea, that's too competitive, you can't do it. And again, I'm a huge believer, don't listen to your friends, don't listen to the naysayers, but test things and test them early. The next concept I'll talk about, and it really comes down to everything. One of my core business theories is you have to be niche centric, you have to be team centric, and you have to be Customer centric. Those are the three centrics we talk about and we'll add on to that product market fit. But if you're building anything significant, you better build a great team. So when we listen to people talk about venture fitness capital funded companies, the core is can those leaders build teams around them? Can they grow and build other great teammates so that you're not so reliant on that one person, those one people, because you just can't really build a serious organization without building a great team. When I watched Caitlyn build at Sea Health and Optum, what was amazing to me about Optum and Sea was the amount of great teammates around them, not just them that were all stars in their own right. And I'll use that to tie into a concept we think about in building any business that we've built or work with. We think of this concept as so building great teams. Don't listen to the naysayers. The next concept I'll touch on is this concept of what we call thrive thrive cultures. So in any business that you're in and growing, I view the huge. The example I had before me in business was a CEO leader who we used to joke a nickel for him was more important than $100 for me or for the people that worked for him. And that's the opposite of what we think of as a thrive thrive culture. The thrive thrive culture is the situation where we have a situation where in the law firm at some point the people that were driving and growing around me grew side by side with me, not subordinate to me that they thrive. I thrive. If I take great pride in the building of the legal practice is that several of those people now make a ton more money than I do at the law firm. They're in big leadership roles at the law firm. They thrived. They weren't sort of dependent upon me to thrive. It was a side by side thrive thrive culture. The same thing in the media business at Becker's Healthcare. The building of a thrive thrive culture where early on I saw the talent in the person who became CEO. She's now been CEO for 20 plus years and it sort of first she was president, then several years in I made her CEO and president and those were some of the best decisions I ever made. And the fact that from a economic perspective she makes more money than me side by side by me. The same thing by partners in the law firm firm. These are the best things that you can do is ultimately build these thrive thrive cultures where people are thriving side by side with you. Not subordinate with you. And we talk a lot about this Venn diagram. We'll come back to it at some point. Maybe not in this discussion today, but. But this concept of building thrive. Thrive cultures with your teams, your. Your. Your business colleagues, your. Your people next to you. The next concept, and only go through two or three more today, is this concept of.
[163:07]
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Of.
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We call it the Greekist rule. And I hope he's not offended by it.
[163:11]
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This is.
[163:12]
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There was an attorney that worked with me when I was a younger lawyer when I was building a practice called Lynn Gricus. And Lynn was a fantastic young lawyer and still a fantastic person. But I was so reliant on him that when he left the firm, I was in bad, bad shape. So the concept is, in building a business, building a company, you cannot be too reliant on any one great person. You've got to build teams. It's very similar with customer concentration. You can't be too reliant on any great customer. You've got to build multiple customers. And the key word here I think about when you have great people is the conjunctive word. And so you have great teammates, you want to add more great teammates. You have great customers, you want to add more great customers. One of the things I see in business is people. I see it in sports all the time. The Cubs get rid of one star, they bring in another star. That's not accretive. It's got to be. And we want multiple stars. And it's the same thing in business. We have multiple great people. We ended up calling it the Greekest rule in our book. Lynn is a fantastic person, great lawyer, but being reliant on any one person versus a team of lawyers was. Was no good. Another thing we think about, we ended up calling the Gordon rule also after somebody that worked for us, somebody needed a job very badly. We hired her at a wage that she was happy to take, but not a wage that was truly a living wage. And we thought it was a win win. This person needed a job. Her father asked me to find her a job. We found her a job. She was actually terrific. But within six, eight weeks of being with us, she left for what was a much better wage, even though we hired her when she was unemployed. It led me to the rule that I've got to pay people whatever area they're in at some place more than fair, because we never want people getting paid less than they're worth, even if they don't realize what they're worth. And I think that's something that just stuck with me. This concept that if you're going to hire people, we want everybody. I don't want organizations with thousands of people. I want organizations with less people. But everybody paid a little bit more than fair. It's a lot more than fair in how we view it and how we grow businesses. We called that the Gordon Rule. There are so many other thoughts we have about growing businesses. There's this concept that if you're going to be a founder or CEO, there's going to be some prolonged period of time. Ben Stein used to call it the ten year rule. But some significant period of time that you're going to have to be obsessed about building the business, building what you're doing, building. I don't think there's much way around it, particularly to get to a more mature business for a long period of time. For most of us that are founders, there's not guys nights out, there's not girls nights out. For some prolonged period of time, you're going to have to be truly focused heavily on building your career, building your business, whatever you're doing. And at the end of the day, like, you know, I didn't start golfing till I was 50 or so, and my golf game shows that. But for very. Because it's not very good. But for a very long period of time, it's focused on family and business, and that was about it. You couldn't be focused on too many things if you wanted to have a great career or build a great business. There are so many other things that we talk about. We'll do it in a longer webinar September 10th. I guess the only other thing I'll talk about is, well, is this concept of. There's this constant phrase of culture eat strategy for breakfast. And I have grown to hate this phrase. So I'm a believer in culture and strategy. Like, I've seen all these organizations that are beautiful places to work where nobody gets anything done. And one of the things I give great credit to, Jessica Cole, the CEO of Becker's Healthcare, is this mix of culture plus execution, culture plus strategy. You know, I do so many interviews on podcasts, and I literally joke with my producer that the next time somebody says culture eats strategy for breakfast, we're going to just cut the podcast right then. It's become such a common phrase, such a common concept, and I am a believer. Culture is very important. But it's culture plus execution. It's culture plus taking care of people. It's culture plus really smart people. It's culture plus strategy. It's not just culture eat strategy for breakfast. And I know anybody that's ever gone to a coaching class, a strategic coach class, any kind of class, comes out of this and says, culture eat strategy for breakfast. Like it's the it's the brightest thing they've ever heard in their life. And I for one, every time I hear it, I want to cut the person off and hit the gong like they used to on the Gong Show. And I'm aging myself by using the Gong show as an example. I know Julie Clapp won't know that reference because she's too young, but for the rest of us from my age, you might though the Gong Show. But whenever I hear somebody say culture eat strategy for breakfast, I literally want to hit that gong. And I know people object to me saying this, but I do believe it's true. Again, those are 10 business and leadership concepts that we think about in building businesses. I am much more thankful for our 14 panelists today joining us. I love it. I love it more than my golf foursome getting to visit with 14 people like these and hear their thoughts. It inspires me. It motivates me. I hope it does the same for our audience. Just a great pleasure for me. Our next big event like this for founders, CEOs and entrepreneurs will be in February. We do a similar virtual summit. We'll figure out if we ever motivate again to do live summits. Besides, outside of Becker's Healthcare, I don't know. But thank you so much for joining us today. What a great pleasure to be connected and to hear people. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining us for the CEO Summit. In this portion of the CEO Summit. Thank you for listening to the Becker Business and the Record Private Equity podcast. Thank you so much.
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Summary7 min read

Becker Private Equity & Business Podcast

Episode: The CEO Summit (Virtual): 5 Panels with 14 CEOs

Date: August 1, 2026

Host: Scott Becker

Episode Overview

This episode features an expansive virtual CEO Summit hosted by Scott Becker, bringing together 14 accomplished CEOs and business leaders across five panels. The summit’s central themes revolve around winning as a CEO, scaling and building sustainable businesses, the evolving CEO agenda, and actionable, evergreen business and leadership advice. The discussions blend perspectives from private equity, professional services, healthcare, marketing, investment, and more, spotlighting strategies for growth, culture, talent, and resilience—plus memorable, candid insights about leading through change.

Panel 1: Building Enduring Companies and Culture

Panelists:

Micheline Davis (CEO, National Medical Fellowships)
Mark Williams (CEO, Magna Legal Services)
Tom Mallon (Founder, Regent Surgical Health & CEO, Perpetuate Capital)

[00:30–10:00] Introductions

Tom Mallon described his journey from founding Regent Surgical Health, converting it to an ESOP for employee ownership, and now facilitating ESOP structures for other businesses through Perpetuate Capital:

“We ended up converting [Regent] to an ESOP and it was truly one of the best things that happened in my professional career.” [03:36 – C]
Mark Williams shared how he transitioned from law partner and international M&A work to leading multiple private equity-backed legal tech companies, highlighting the growth and acquisitions at Magna Legal Services, now the largest provider in its segment.
Micheline Davis explained National Medical Fellowships’ (NMF) 80-year history supporting medical students from underrepresented backgrounds and addressing the physician shortage.

“The greatest segment of capital is our human capital.” [09:35 – E]

[10:55–19:58] Building Enduring Institutions

Micheline’s advice:
- "Hire slowly, fire quickly." Culture is defined by what poor behavior the CEO tolerates.
- Toxicity, even from highly talented individuals, damages wellbeing and performance:
  
  “The best culture…is only as good as the worst behavior that you are willing to tolerate.” [10:55 – E]
- Address problematic behavior, coach if possible, but move on quickly when needed:
  
  “If [someone] is not salvageable, they're not malleable, they're not educable, then you wish them well…” [12:34 – E]
Mark’s advice:
- Align investment partners and teams with values, systems, and strong processes for scale.
- “Invest in your people; they are your greatest competitive advantage.” Technology adoption and client-centric innovation are vital, but “culture starts at the top.”
- Execution is as critical as strategy.
Tom’s advice:
- Don’t try to do everything as CEO—empower others.
- Leadership by example is crucial; discipline and values must flow from the CEO’s actions.
  
  “It's easier to change a person than change a person.” [19:09 – C]

[21:14–26:23] What Excites These CEOs

Micheline: Reconnecting generations at NMF’s 80th anniversary and preparing the next generation of healthcare leaders.
Mark: Accelerating growth by acquisition and embedding AI, while adapting leadership as the organization grows.
Tom: Completion of Perpetuate Capital’s first fund focused on national security, with plans to scale via SBIC.

[27:09–30:29] Leadership Philosophy

Tom: Aligns values-driven leadership with faith.
Mark: Empowers middle management via structured communication to maintain mission alignment and culture at scale.
Micheline: Advocates for intellectual curiosity, humility, continuous coaching, and mentoring.

Panel 2: Building and Managing Professional & Entrepreneurial Firms

Panelists:

Ben Lerner (Co-founder, Defined Executive Search)
Jason Zinn (Founder, Nomi Capital)
Nancy Temple (Founder, Katten Temple Law)

[35:15–45:37] Introductions & Business Models

Ben Lerner: Focuses on urgent, transparent executive search; stakeholder alignment is “absolutely critical.”
Jason Zinn: Invests in defense/national security, emphasizing the importance of integrity and alignment with founders.
Nancy Temple: Champions culture of accessibility and invests in the next generation of lawyers by mentorship and inclusion.

[46:53–53:26] Investing, Defense, & Politics

Defense/national security private investment has become critical due to global events.
Political risk and the need for bipartisan cooperation are ever-present.

[54:15–64:55] Leadership & Team Development Advice

Red flags in hiring/executive search: Inconsistencies in candidates’ motivations, values, compensation expectations.
Leadership transition: Nancy advocates open feedback, clarity on firm economics, and nurturing buy-in from junior lawyers.
Entrepreneurship: Jason & Ben stress “just go for it”—anxiety is natural, but reward > risk; support from network is understated but transformative.
Most satisfying leadership moments: Developing people and winning as a team trumps solo achievement.

Panel 3: Scaling, Branding, and Resilience Across Industries

Panelists:

Holly Buckley (Chair, Healthcare Dept., McGuire Woods)
Marion Crawford (Founder, Crawford Agency)
William Crawford (CEO, Packlett Milliken Family Office)
Barry Tanner (CEO, Respire Home Care Services)

[67:25–86:28] Introductions & Growth Challenges

Holly: Focused on balancing fast growth with quality and culture in healthcare law.
Marion: Building a full-service agency from local to national clients by leveraging talent and adapting to AI.
William: Operates a large family office managing energy and real estate assets. Optimizing teams and “keeper of the culture” are top issues.
Barry: Differentiates in a commoditized healthcare market by building a culture of genuine patient care; most proud of consistently leading with a small, aligned, interchangeable executive team.

[95:47–103:11] Resilience, Succession, & Family

William: Building resilience means long-term thinking, flexibility, and optionality (“improving your BATNA”).
Marion: Excited about a strong team, including three adult children now working in the family business.
Barry: Focused on making Respire a recognized leader in complex in-home care—he’s led eight PE-backed firms as CEO.

Panel 4: Scaling, Private Equity, & Board-Level Insights

Panelists:

Caitlin Zula (CEO, Lumexa Imaging; fmr. CEO SCA Health & Optum East)
Julie Clath (Partner, Origami Capital Partners)
Brian Parker (Partner, Parker Poe Adams & Bernstein)
David Shull (President, Russo Partners)

[105:07–125:55] Key Points

Caitlin:
- Scaling means evolving leadership and systems—moving from hands-on to empowering leaders:
  
  “As you go up the curve, your leadership model has to change.” [107:18 – A]
  - Trust, “say-do ratio,” and clarity are essential.
Julie:
- “People are everything”—would prefer a C company with A people over the inverse.
- Delay in replacing the wrong CEO usually leads to regret:
  
  “Whenever we have had the instinct that it needs to be done… it always becomes the thing that is done.” [112:42 – N]
- Best leaders are flexible, coachable, and hire those who complement (not clone) themselves.
Brian:
- Stay close to customers, make decisions with care, cadence, and agility.
David:
- Culture is paramount: talent matching, psychological safety, empathy.
  
  “We want to create as leaders a safe space… There shouldn’t be fear of making mistakes because we have to continue to innovate.” [136:24 – O]

Panel 5: Final Leadership and Strategy Insights

[124:26–144:43] Rapid-Fire Advice for CEOs and Founders

Honor what got you here, but don’t idolize it—evolve before crisis hits. [124:26 – A]
Culture AND execution are vital—don’t buy “culture eats strategy for breakfast.” [163:07–end – B]
Build deep teams: never be too reliant on a single superstar (the “Gricus Rule”); pay fairly or better than fair (the “Gordon Rule”).
"The best founders are dispensable—not indispensable—to the business."
Communication, consistency, and empathy are repeated as signature marks of great leadership.
Boards and investors: be honest on CEO succession; when you feel it’s time to change, it usually is.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Culture:

“The best culture…is only as good as the worst behavior that you are willing to tolerate.” – Micheline Davis [10:55]
On Talent:

“It’s easier to change a person than change a person.” – Tom Mallon [19:09]
On Scaling:

“As you go up the curve, your leadership model has to change.” – Caitlin Zula [107:18]
On Team:

“People are everything. I’d rather have a C company with A people than an A company with C people.” – Julie Clath [111:19]
On Leadership Transitions:

“Whenever we have had the instinct that it needs to be done… it always becomes the thing that is done.” – Julie Clath [112:42]
On Building Enduring Organizations:

“You want to be dispensable as a founder over time, not indispensable…Indispensable is great for the ego. Dispensable is great for the business.” – Scott Becker [~140:00]
On Empathy:

“Treat everybody with the greatest respect, because they have their family members and more.” – David Shull [138:43]

Timestamped Key Segments

[00:30–26:23] Panel 1: CEO introductions, private equity, culture, and team building.
[35:15–64:55] Panel 2: Managing professional services, investing in defense, building entrepreneurial firms.
[67:25–103:11] Panel 3: Agency, law, family office, healthcare CEO issues—scaling, culture, being the "keeper of the culture."
[105:07–125:55] Panel 4: PE-backed scaling, CEO transitions, advice for board-level leadership.
[124:26–144:43] Panel 5 and Becker’s closing: Core business/leadership lessons and concepts.

Closing Thoughts

Scott Becker concluded the summit with ten distilled business and leadership concepts:

The 5 phases of business (idea → product → revenue → profit → scale)
The evolution and dispensability of founders
The criticality of ride-or-die teams and A-level customers
Paying above-fair wages
The Greekus Rule (never rely too hard on one superstar)
The false dichotomy of “culture vs. strategy”—the best companies do both
Being niche, team, and customer centric
Genuine leadership is about consistency, clarity, and empathy, not charisma alone.

The summit blends case study, hard-won wisdom, and actionable insight—worth revisiting for any business leader looking to build enduring, high-performance organizations.

For more:

Listen to the full summit on the Becker Private Equity & Business Podcast feed.
See [timestamps above] to revisit any panel or quote.
Next CEO/Founder Virtual Leadership Summit: February 2027.

Loading summary

Transcript197 lines

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[00:30]
B
This is Scott Becker with the Becker Business and Becker Private Equity Podcast. This next recording is a summit, the CEO summit. This CEO summit had four panels, 14 different guests. Subjects like how CEOs win building great businesses, the new CEO agenda from Momentum to scale, and then a short portion at the end by myself on building great businesses. We hope you enjoy this greatly. Again, this is the CEO Summit. This entire effort is about a two and a half hour recording. We hope you enjoy part or all of it. We think the CEOs on it were fantastic. Thank you so much for listening. So our first panel, we've got three fantastic panelists. Micheline Davis, who is the CEO of National Medical Fellowships. Micheline's remarkable leader. We'll get a chance to hear what she does. I've known her for more than a decade and an incredible leader. Second, we've got Mark Williams. Mark is the CEO of a private equity funded company called Magna Legal and he'll tell us the exact right. I've also known Mark for a long time. Really bright, really principled leader and excited to hear from him. Third, we have Tom Malin and again like Micheline and Mark, I've had the pleasure of working with Tom for a long time. He's the founder of a company called Regent Surgical Health which is an incredible successful ambulatory surgery center company in the healthcare space. He then went on to be CEO of Perpetuate Capital. He does a lot of different, different interesting things. I know. Mark went to U of I with myself. Tom went to Harvard Business School. Gifted, gifted person. We're so excited to have each of you here. Tom, let me ask you to take a moment, introduce yourself, tell us about your organization and I'll ask you Mark and Michelin just to start there. A quick introduction and a quick oversight of your organization.
[02:37]
C
Thanks Scott. I'm Tom Mallon. I'm a Managing partner of Perpetuate Capital. We're in the business of facilitating and financing ESOPs for business owners who want to maintain the culture and the values of their business past their retirement time. We also Raise funds and provide an opportunity for investors to get a good return on their capital, plus some inflation protection and hopefully in the process help employees retire much better off than if they were just 401k beneficiaries.
[03:23]
B
And Tom, give us a moment on your business background. What you do today is run, perpetuate capital, help people do ESOPs, invest in those and so forth. Give us just 30 seconds, 60 seconds on your business background which has been extraordinary.
[03:37]
C
We started Region Surgical Health as Scott mentioned, back in 2001. Scott and I have had the pleasure of working together since 95, so it's been a wonderful relationship and he's been a great advisor all those years. We ran built Region surgical health for 15 years and then tried to figure out what to do with it because we had several partners who needed to retire. We ended up converting it to an esop and it was truly one of the best things that happened in my professional career. We ran it as an ESOP for four and a half years, had a unsolicited offer to purchase it at a much higher price. Employees were happy, investors were happy and management was happy. So that's why I decided to spend the rest of my career helping other business owners have successful exits.
[04:34]
B
Thank you so much. Mark, you've had an extraordinary leadership career with private equity funded companies. Take a moment and introduce yourself and tell us about what you do and what Magna does.
[04:44]
D
Yeah. So first of all, Scott, I gotta say I'm grateful to be here. I don't want to date either of us, but I looked up to Scott as an esteemed upperclassman in the late 80s and a few years ago. So, you know, honored to be here with him today, truly. So thank you for having me, Scott. And with, with our other panelists. So yeah. Mark Williams spent about half my career as a partner or as a lawyer partner at a large global law firm. I was an M and a corporate partner at Hart, but spent eight, nine years of my career overseas, different places, Asia, China for four years, the Middle east, other places, and then decided that I liked running businesses better, thought maybe I was a little better at it. And now for the last 17 years or so, it's been a long time. I've been leading private equity backed legal support services, legal technology companies in the space and have had a number of exits in that in that segment, joined Magna legal services in 2019. They had the first private equity investment by CIVC partners in 2018. I joined in 2019. Odyssey Investment Partners took a controlling stake in 2022. We have about 30 offices around the country, about 1500 employees, thousands of 1099s. And again, we support the legal industry with technology and services in court reporting, deposition services, records retrieval, jury and trial consulting. I think we're the largest company in that. In the country. Service of process and investigations.
[06:42]
B
And Mark, what's it been like? Because you have in the audience a whole bunch of people. Some have worked with private equity, some have not. You and Barry Tanner, who's on as well a little bit later today, worked with several different private equity funds and any sense of that, because people, there's so much noise out there about working with private equity.
[07:00]
E
Hard.
[07:00]
B
Is it easy? Are they impossible? Are they not? Give us just a moment on working with private equity as an investor or sponsoring your company.
[07:07]
D
Well, the just a moment part might be hard, Scott, but I'll do my best to keep it short. Yeah, I mean, I think it's all about alignment. Right. So I've been with, I think over time, seven different private equity funds. I was CEO of a company called Crow on Track, that was chapter 11. So that was owned by distressed companies that invested in distressed equity. You know, Magna is a growth story. We've done 20 acquisitions. And either way, I think it's all about alignment with your, with your investors, with your private equity, with your lenders in the private equity space. There's certainly a lot of, you know, dotting your I's, crossing, crossing your T's, you know, institutional investment as a different part to the ecosystem. But I, I think if you have the right aligned partners, which I have had every step, I'm very fortunate every step of the way. It's been, it's been strong alignment. It can be a great ecosystem to provide not only capital to fund investments and acquisitions, but also as a thought partner and a strategy partner. So I, I think it's a terrific ecosystem. Maybe not for everybody, but again, it's all about the right partner and the right, right alignment.
[08:23]
B
Thank you. I think. Very well stated, Micheline. You've had this extraordinary career. One of the most inspiring people I get to work with. Talk a little bit about what you do in national medical fellowships.
[08:34]
E
Scott, thank you. It is always good to be with you in community, no matter whether or not that community is in person or virtual. So I'm delighted to be here with both Mark and Tom. I have the fortunate opportunity to, I call myself the chief servant officer, but to serve as the president and CEO of National Medical Fellowships, an organization that for the last 80 years has been advancing the issue of addressing the physician shortage that this country is now actually facing and already in the midst of. And so with over the last 80 years, NMAP has done that by ensuring that they provide financial support, professional development and then additional training and certification for individuals once they have graduated from medical school and gone on to become practicing physicians. We train them to then turn around and become emerging investigators in clinical trials research.
[09:22]
B
And talk a little bit about you've got the 80th anniversary event coming up. Give us a sense of how many students national medical fellowships helps each year. Just give us a sense of that.
[09:35]
E
Well, I will tell you, over the last 80 years we have given out some $50 million to over 35,000 students. On an annual basis we can do upwards of 5,000 students. And so it's been just really an incredibly impactful opportunity. Right. The the greatest segment of capital is our human capital. And so by doing this I am making certain that there are individuals who will be there to take care of you, Scott, Tom, Mark and all of
[10:02]
B
our employees and talk for a second. I'm asking each of you this question for CEOs trying to build enduring companies, sort of. And you've done this great job of building national medical fellowships. I know in the last year also received a large, large grant that has really helped the future of it. And you've also done a great job of structuring the team at NMF. The best advice for founders, CEOs trying to build enduring institutions. You've got the different situation here of being a not for profit leader. Mark and Tom are for profit leaders. But at the end of the day, so much of the building and what you're trying to do is the same. Talk about a little bit of advice to people trying to build enduring institutions and how you think about that. Micheline and then Mark and Tom will ask you the same question.
[10:56]
E
So thank you so much for that question. I think it's undoubtedly worthy and as you know, I come out of both large scale academic medicine, health care and then government before that. And what I will say to you is that I once heard someone give really great advice from a stage and that was to hire slowly but to fire quickly. And the reason and the rationale for that is that truth be told, one of the most important elements that we have in building any infrastructure for sustainability of any organization for profit, not for profit doesn't matter is really right that the culture that you are building and your institution and truth be told that the CEO, the best culture that you're ever going to have is Only as good as the worst behavior that you are willing to tolerate, right? And so we really have to make certain that we are looking at toxicity in the way in which it affects the mental health and well being of all of the members on your team. Oftentimes, Scott, we have an individual who may be really talented, but if that individual does not also practice those kind of soft skills that help to propel the organization forward as a whole, then we really need to make certain that we are evalu the actual impact on the organization, on its people and ultimately its bottom line.
[12:13]
B
And how do you balance that, that great contributor with behavior to make sure you've got the right balance of people because you need those great contributors, but you can't tolerate awful behavior. How do you try and balance that? Can you coach that? Or is it some point where you just have to sacrifice one for the other and get rid of the person who's just a bad behavior person?
[12:34]
E
Listen, I will tell you this. I think that it is all about the evaluative process, right? So, so literally I believe that, that there's always an opportunity to cure. However, individuals have a choice, right, to elect whether or not to be coachable or not. And so the question ultimately is always, is this person salvageable? Right? Can we in fact utilize an opportunity to bring to their attention? Sometimes individuals are unwitting, unknowing about their behavior and the way in which they show up in the world. Do we have an opportunity to bring this to their the forefront of their frontal lobe? And will they in fact welcome a chance to literally turn that around? Some people will say, you know, I hadn't realized the ultimate effect of that. I didn't realize how I was showing up in the world. Because every single individual that is working under your mantle is an extension. They are an agent of U.S. principle. And so it really is how do you want to show up in the world? And so I think that we ascent, we initially, we try to address it and then quite frankly, if we found out that the person is not right, it's not salvageable, they're not malleable, they're not educable, then you wish them well and you let them go have a great opportunity to be successful somewhere else.
[13:46]
B
Thank you so much. I love that and so much about building great organizations is great people and also what you'll tolerate in people and their behavior. Mark, talk a little bit about when you think about building great organizations. And you've done this incredible job of building Magna and before that building other companies, you had this critical track record, what advice would you give to founders, to CEOs, to entrepreneurs about what works? What are a couple core things people should be thinking about?
[14:14]
D
Yeah, so I certainly agree with Micheline about a focus on culture and values and people and you know, one toxic person can really bring down a culture. So yeah, I mean, I agree with that. Invest in your people, they are your greatest competitive advantage. And you know, higher, slow fire, fast and then build systems and processes that allow the business to scale. A lot of what I've done the last, you know, 15 years particularly has been taking, you know, family run businesses or smaller businesses and then scaling them up, private equity owned. So having the system and processes to scale is critical with, with the right people, you know, today particularly you got to be focused on technology, cannot be left behind in technology. So if you don't have one eye focused on technology, I think you're probably in trouble. Which means different things for different people. But it is critical. And part of that is listening to your clients, listening to their needs, adapting to their needs, which again is changing fast. I think with technology, with artificial intelligence, you know, I think again as Micheline stated, you know, leading with integrity and consistency, you know, culture starts at the top. So mission, vision, values, I'm a big believer in that and activating them, they can't just be a piece of paper. But having strong mission, vision, values, making people understanding them and then making it real within the culture and then finally, you know, execution. I mean all this goes for not if you're not focused on executing on your strategy and executing on your mission, vision, values.
[16:03]
B
And Mark, let me ask you a question because I think currently at Magna you mentioned, I think thousands of ultimately between employees and contractors, many in the audience have managed organizations with thousands and some have managed organizations with 10 to 100 or less. Talk a little bit about how management has changed for you or how you've had a change as you've grown to manage much larger organizations than you might have earlier in your career. How does that change? How does that change you as a manager and how you have to approach things?
[16:35]
D
Yeah, I mean there are two categories of topics that really come to my mind. One is just the change in the world, especially in the post Covid technology fueled world, which is we do so much virtual today and yeah, we have thousands of people around the country. So even if that was not the case, I couldn't go see all of them and be with them on a regular basis. So that's a challenge. You can't be with People all the time. But how do we use zoom? I mean, a great example is this, this, you know, what we're doing today, this summit that we're doing, and it feels great. Right? But how do we effectively use tech technology to reach as many of our employees and clients as possible, and then the other, and it goes back to systems, process, culture, mission, vision, values. How do we replicate it? Right? How do we make sure that second level, third level, fourth level leadership are living those values, enforcing those values, communicating, helping create the culture one wants to create. And that's hard to do at scale. It is hard, and it is hard to balance, you know, culture with bureaucracy. And you need rules and process and system, but how do you not lean so deeply into that that you lose your heart and lose the culture and lose the values and lose that human touch? So, Scott? Yeah, it's a great question. I wish I had a magic answer, but it's all that.
[18:09]
B
But I love your point on, as you get larger and larger, how do you mix systems with maintaining that human touch and the right culture? And sometimes it's much easier to do that in an organization of 80 to 100, where people, you could really be on the same page with everybody. Be very careful about every hire. You get to thousands and you see some organizations that really live that, where you really feel the culture per permeates the organization and others it doesn't. And, and I think that's a fantastic sort of perspective on it. Tom, let me ask you the same question. I'm gonna come back to each of you in a moment with a question from one of the, one of the attendees. Tom, best Advice for founders, CEOs trying to build enduring companies. You built a highly successful surgery center company that had, by the time it sold dozens of locations, dozens of partners. How do you build that? And how hands on do you have to be? What advice do you have for founders that are trying to build sustainable organizations?
[19:09]
C
Well, you can't be so hands on that you're doing everything. So a lot of problems in companies you can identify by just looking in the mirror as the CEO, and the things that you'll allow, the things that you'll empower in health care, everybody takes care of everybody else. Well, we got to the point where my COO and I were running each other. We were running ragged. And we looked at each other and said, we're running ragged because other people aren't doing their jobs and we're having to jump in and fix it. A very wise person once told me again, Michelina's fire quickly. It's easier to change a person than change a person. Scott Becker, have you heard that before? Has that come out of your mouth?
[19:58]
B
It came out of my mouth because we had a managing partner, the law firm that used to say that, that it's very hard to change someone, that it's easier to change out the person than change a person, though you certainly want to try. But that's very hard to change people.
[20:11]
C
That, but you have to deal with reality. And if the person's person doesn't have the values, doesn't have the discipline. A CEO can't demand discipline in his organization if he always shows up late to meeting. Just a little thing, you know, so, you know, my, my, I'm a very big proponent of values and discipline in an organization and having people do their jobs. And if they don't want to do their jobs, have them. I have the this is America speech with them. Hey, this is, you know, this is America. Everybody has the right to pursue their own happiness. We're going to figure out how you can go someplace else and be happy because we're not happy here and you're not happy here. That's usually the case.
[20:55]
B
So let me ask each of you this question, just 30 seconds to a minute each. Michelin I'll start with you and then we're going to come back to the reader, to the listener question. What are you most excited about currently in what you're doing? What are you most excited about currently? And then Mark and Tom will ask you the same question. Michelle?
[21:15]
E
Thank you, Scott. I really am excited about you mentioned earlier that we are celebrating our 80th anniversary as a really unique opportunity to to call back to all of the students over the years who are now practicing positions, some of whom are actually retired, and really call them back into community one with another. So I'm excited about the intentional community, but I'm excited for the next generation of health care leader. I'm excited that they will have the knowledge, experience, the wisdom of those who have already been in practice and been in the profession and that we are going to be able to have a chance to layer that on with them, what healthcare of tomorrow is going to be right? And so all of that experience will be laid on top of innovation and transformation and really what we have the chance to cultivate as healthcare is continuing to evolve. And so that actually excites me.
[22:05]
B
Could you take one moment, if you're okay with it, on the historic mission of nmf and today I know it's really focused on helping underprivileged people become. Doctors excel as physicians excel as clinicians. Give us a moment on the historical mission and how much has been done for that mission.
[22:22]
E
For sure. Thank you. My friend Willie will tell you you heard me mention the fact that it's our 80th anniversary. We were founded in 1946 at a time when, quite frankly, segregation made it really difficult for lots of individuals who were absolutely brilliant, but in different zip codes and different aspects of the country to literally have access to the opportunity to become a physician. And so over the course of that time, literally, NMF was the vehicle that provided a chance for those who were kept out of certain systems to literally obtain the education that their brilliance was already ready to receive. And so as a result of that, every U.S. surgeon general who happens to have been of an underrepresented demographic in medicine is literally an NMF alum. We have created astronauts and given them to the world because of the double down focus and making certain that those who were prevented from having access to opportunity were given a chance to have that access so that their brilliance would have that opportunity.
[23:23]
B
Thank you. We do something with Michelin every single day. We serve on a board. We're huge fans of what NMF does. The both historical mission, the current mission, and Michelin is a remarkably inspiring leader. Mark, take a second on what you're most focused on today. Is it growth, is it execution, is it trying to embed technology? Everything you do. Where is the biggest focus today? Mark?
[23:46]
D
Yeah, I, I mean, it's all that. I'm really excited about continuing to accelerate our growth through acquisitions. I think we just closed our 20th acquisition this week. And you know, that brings more talent, more services, strengthening our position. So excited to continue that journey again. Private equity helps fuel that from capital perspective and a partnership perspective. Technology. I said it earlier, we're investing a lot in infusing AI into our products, into our services, into our workflow. That's a critical part of what we need to get right. We need to execute on it and enhancing the way work gets done. And I'll tie this just quickly, Scott, to the last subject, which is as we progress through greater technology and acquisitions and growth, I need to always remember what got you here won't get you there. Right. So your question, about 30 people, 300 people, 3,000 people. I think that oftentimes there's a mistake made that people look and say, well, the way they were doing it or we were doing it before was wrong. I don't think that's the right way to look at it. I think it might have been the right way at that time, but things have now changed. You're bigger, you're larger, there's more technology. So how do you scale? How do you grow? What got you here won't get you there. You need to adapt and change to the circumstances.
[25:20]
B
Thank you so much. Tom. I'm asking you the same question. Now. We've got a handful of listener questions I'm going to try to address to each of you. Quickly, Tom, first, what are you most excited about and focused on?
[25:32]
C
Currently, we are just finishing up investing our first fund, which is a proof of concept fund, small fund, primarily individuals who we've done business with for many years. That fund has focused on basically three areas that the government has identified as critical to the country, national security, critical minerals and energy security. And because we're investing in those areas, we have the opportunity to apply for an SBIC license for our next fund, which should increase our capability of serving the market by two to three times what we raise as private capital. So that's going to start next year, most likely.
[26:23]
F
Thank you.
[26:23]
B
I'm going to ask each of your different questions that came from our listeners. Tom, this is actually specifically addressed to you. This person says that in your literature and your perspective, the Perpetuate Capital, you know, also has a perspective from a biblical perspective, seminars for financial literacy. And how do you sort of mix the biblical views with the financial views and some of your thoughts on that, because I know this is a deep part of who you are. If you don't mind, if you're comfortable with it, spend a moment on how those two things apply together, that you could be in business and be religious as well.
[27:09]
C
Well, when I was, when I was running Regent Surgical Health, I joined an organization called C12, which is similar to Vistage, which is a CEO roundtable organization organization, but it's primarily Christian business owners. And that organization, I was in it for seven years, had really helped me through the ups and downs of Obamacare and all the things that were happening in health care during the season that I was CEO of Regent, I believe that the best CEOs are the ones that continue to educate themselves. And if they're willing to sit down in a room with 12 other business owners for a day, a month, whether it be a Vistage meeting or a C12 meeting or a convene meeting, those are better people to invest in than the CEOs that know it all. And so that's the, that's the pond we fish in and it's a wonderful group of people. We invest in that those organizations every chance we get because they just seem to be better investments for us. And we are on the same page, we talk the same language. And they are very much in the mode of rewarding their employees through the ESOP conversion, more so than someone who just wants to get the maximum amount of dollars and walk away from their life's work.
[28:40]
B
Thank you. Mark, let me ask you this question that comes from a listener and thank you, Tom. This question comes from a listener. Middle managers, how do you make sure that you're dealing well with middle management? That they don't just become part of a big bureaucratic situation where things aren't. How do you deal with middle management, I guess is really the question.
[29:04]
D
Yeah, I think it's a really good question. A really hard challenge is again, how do you make sure that the team at various level is living the mission, the vision, but especially the values. And you know, one way we're doing that is we're just pushing this out now is an entire entirely new sort of meeting and communication structure where we are having meetings. I'm having meetings with different levels and different teams on a regular basis. Some are weekly, some are monthly, some are quarterly. But the whole goal is to connect the team. Again, I go back to alignment, to make sure everybody's aligned, understands the strategy, understands the mission, and have two way communication around the values and how it gets rolled out at different levels of the organization. And it really comes down to culture, right? Making sure you empower your people to do the right thing and to have that communication and those open channels. But it is, it is hard. It's a great question. It's hard.
[30:11]
B
Let me ask you this question. If you were advising somebody who's starting as a CEO or wants to be a CEO, what skills would you encourage them to develop? What skills are necessary to be an effective CEO? And would you encourage somebody who wants to be a leader to develop?
[30:30]
E
So I'd really encourage them to do two things. One, to make certain that they have a really great understanding of what it is that they are good in. Right? And the finite universe of all the things that they are not. And I say that because I thought that Tom just hit it right on the head. My goodness, right. You never want to be the kind of CEO, believe that you know it all. I am afraid of you. If that is in fact the case, that's one, two, right? To be really intellectually curious, to make certain that you are embracing the Opportunity to be an active listener and an active learner of everyone that you work with, the company that you are now going to be running, quite frankly, but also of your consumer. Right. And so I really think that it's a really great chance for you to double down in that space. Listen, you know what a CEO is supposed to be. You are setting strategy. You are the vision. You've got to communicate, communicate over, communicate and communicate again to Mark's exact point just a moment ago. One of the really important aspects of that, that mid level, right. Employees, to make certain that they feel like they are a part of everything else that you're doing. Where do they see themselves in your vision? What aspect of your strategic plan did you actually include them? And have they had an opportunity to feel like you built a big enough tent for them to now be able to see their own fingerprints and what it is that you're building together? I think that these are all the kinds of skills that you want to make certain that you have as you go forward into this new role and into this new realm. And then my friends, make certain that you get yourself a really great executive coach, mentor. There is no such thing as now I have arrived. So really making certain that you understand that being a CEO is just a great opportunity to serve more people on a bigger scale.
[32:15]
D
And Scott, can I jump in, Scott, and say something? I just want to tie a thread between what Tom's answer and mine and Micheline, which is, I think again, it's about leadership with conviction and values, whether it's, you know, through religion or through any other reason. It's, it's. What does one do when they don't have the big audience? When you're doing the right thing by your employees, the right thing by your clients, the right thing by your vision and mission and the integrity encouraged to stick with it, which includes openness. Right. Openness. To get it wrong too, and to be vulnerable. So I, I think that's a theme through all this.
[32:50]
C
And to be called out for it and be willing to listen.
[32:53]
G
Yeah, yeah.
[32:55]
E
And to actually right. Bring it back to them when you are wrong. Come back to your, to your employees and say, listen, we tried this. I was the biggest proponent of this. It was the wrong call.
[33:05]
C
One of the best features of Scott Becker as a, as a, as a counselor is his willingness to speak the truth, whether whether I wanted to hear it or not. And it was always appreciated. No.
[33:18]
B
Thank you so much. I want to thank all three of you. Micheline, there was a question here about does Your program also sponsor mid level providers, nurse practitioners, physician assistants. Could just really quickly address that because someone had that question.
[33:32]
E
Absolutely we do. Right. So I talk about the fact that we address the physician shortage because we were founded as an entity in order to propel more individuals into being physicians. But we absolutely. PhDs, pharm, DS, PAs. You got it. And so we really are attempting to address the entire workforce shortage across the board.
[33:55]
B
Thank you. I want to thank each of you. I've known all of you for a long time. I'm privileged to serve on the not for profit board that Michelin has. And it's really one of the great experiences of my life working with Michelin. I served on a board of Tom a long time ago. One of the best as well. And Mark Williams, I know him forever. Tom, Mark, Micheline. Fantastic. This will also be distributed as a podcast on the Becker Business series. But I want to thank each of you for sharing your thoughts, your time. It's a great privilege for our audience. A great pleasure for me. Thank you all very, very much. Thank you.
[34:26]
D
Thank you, Scott.
[34:27]
E
Thank you, Scott.
[34:29]
B
Our next session has three great panelists. Again, we've got with us Ben Lerner, Nancy Temple, who looks particularly well dressed today. She must be going to court too, as well as Jason Zinn. So we've got three brilliant panelists. I'll ask each of you, Jason, Ben and Nancy to take a moment to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your organizations and what you're building and what you're looking at. Ben, why don't I start with you? And I see an upper corner here, the upper middle of our, of our charts. Ben, can you take a moment and introduce yourself and tell us about what you do and the business that you've built.
[35:15]
H
Scott, great to see you again. Thank you for having me. I am the co founder of an executive search firm called Defined. We operate as holistic search partners to our clients. So we don't specialize in industry or functions. We work with senior leadership CEOs of the organizations as their leadership teams are in flux. We are spending a lot of time as a search firm investing in and leveraging technology to optimize our search delivery and really figure out as a small business the best way for us to sort of automate away from internal and administrative tasks. So I have two partners in the business and we run searches all across the U.S. europe and Asia.
[36:02]
B
And Ben, a typical search are you industry agnostic or focused on specific industries and what does the specific position or search that you're going after look like Great question.
[36:12]
H
So we are in diagnostic. We believe in the power of transferable skills and experiences. So our clients come to us often with critical and or confidential searches for CEO, cfo, cmo, heads of technology, heads of operations, where either a investment group has come in and is looking to transform the leadership team or a key hire is needed. And so we will come in often in a confidential way and manage those searches for our clients. And as an organization that does not specialize in a specific function, the benefit of that is our clients, after working with us, will often ask us to take on searches across their leadership team that allows us to better understand the culture and operating cadence of their organization and they view us as sort of their go to search partners.
[37:04]
B
Thank you. Jason, you spent a long time working with a close colleague of mine at Nancy's at skybridge Capital. You then started your own fund and I guess really a couple questions. First I'll ask you to introduce yourself and tell us about your fund and where you're investing and what you're excited about. Then I'll ask you the difficult question, are you confident in turning over searches to Ben's firm? And at what point would you have that type of confidence to turn over searches to Ben's firm? But Jason, first tell us what you do and you could take a pass or answer the question the second question as well as you'd like. Yeah, thanks.
[37:41]
I
Thank you, Scott. Great to always great to be with you. Thanks for, for having me. So as you mentioned, my name is Jason Zands. I'm the founder and managing partner of Nomi Capital. NOMI is a venture and growth equity investor focused on the defense and broader national security ecosystem. I founded the firm a little over two years ago. To your point. I spent the majority of my career at SkyBridge Capital and a few other larger financial institutions. Always wanted to build up, build something on my own. And so like I said, found a Nomi in May of 2024 similar to Ben, who's both building a business and working with others that are building a business, I am both building a business and investing in others that are building businesses. And so I think there's a lot of synergies back and forth and wisdom that I can impart on the founders that we invest in and likewise always learn from others building their businesses as well. Ben's the best in the business. That's all you're going to get from me for the benefit of the crowd here. Ben and I grew up together and have known each other for well over 30 years. So I would suggest no one other than the find for any of your search needs.
[39:00]
H
Good answer.
[39:01]
B
God bless. And that's a non sponsored moment. Well stated. Thank you Jason. Just fantastic.
[39:06]
I
See him next week on the golf course. And he's much bigger than me. He's much better at golf so I have to get that in there.
[39:12]
B
Well, let's hope you get some strokes in exchange for giving him that fine compliment and well deserved. But two of the very best people that we get a chance to visit with enjoy tremendously visiting with Ben and Jason. Nancy, tell us a little bit about your your career and what you do and we'll then follow up with a few questions for you.
[39:31]
J
Sure. I'm Nancy Temple. I'm a lawyer and people usually don't like to admit they are calling me because they usually have a problem that I need to solve somehow. Started a small law firm in 2008 so we celebrated our 16th year. We have about 15 people and Nancy
[39:51]
B
is a long term colleague and friend and quite frankly, whenever I have a legal issue that needs working on a refer to people, we refer to Nancy and her firms. You're also managing the firm. Take a moment on sort of managing the firm. Managing a professional services organization, advice for people, trying to build that, keep that moving in the right direction, taking care of clients, taking care of people. Give us a few thoughts on advice in building and managing that firm.
[40:21]
J
Well, you have to be able to juggle a lot of different activities. Quality legal services and solving the client's problems are first priority. But as a mom of three, I think I've learned three boys. I've learned a little bit how to juggle and integrate different things. And it does come down to the people. It's so important to have the right people on your team that I can rely on when I travel or or go off and watch my boys play hockey. I know I've got somebody that I can rely upon and trust to help serve our clients. But I also like being able to watch people develop and grow. And so that's what I'm working on right now is trying to build that team for the next generation at our firm.
[41:16]
B
Let me ask you this question. I was talking recently to a close colleague whose business is a client of yours and that person responded that Nancy's accessibility is second to none. Whether and they've got a business, they've got different issues, different challenges. How important is it as a professional service provider to have that type of responsiveness and accessibility? And how do you teach that to others. How do you, how do you teach that? So it permeates the organization. That type of responsiveness, that kind of presentness which you know, for those of us that know you, and there's few other on here, whether it's the Crawfords, Tom Malin or others that have worked with you over the years, we know you for that. How important is that to sort of make that part of the culture of your organization, that kind of responsiveness?
[42:03]
J
Well, it, I think it's really critical to client service and I'm always thinking about my clients problems and how to solve them, whether it's when I'm working out or making dinner or in the office. And the technology allows us to be very receptive and accessible at times. And how I teach that to others is I try to watch them, observe and hopefully and bring them along and include them in those conversations and consultations. It's a huge investment that we make at our firm in our team members and lawyers that we bring on board because we do not charge to have two people to go to meetings or go to court or handle a deposition unless it's absolutely necessary. But I include them for in almost every aspect of practicing law. That's the only way they're going to be able to pick it up and emulate and learn from others. Many, many mentors did that for me. And I think that we have the flexibility in a smaller practice where we can afford to do that. And it's important for us to invest in our people that way.
[43:29]
B
Thank you. Ben, let me ask you this question. You built a firm from scratch. An incredible thing to do in today's world. Tremendous entrepreneurial investment and effort. When you think about building your business and building a great business and you work so closely with clients, are building great businesses, what are a couple principles that you come back to again and again? What are things you think about in building your own business and watching your customers, your clients build their businesses that are critical to success?
[43:58]
H
Yeah, great, great question. I'll, I'll first echo what what Nancy said. I think as a service provider, albeit in sort of a different way, I think, I think availability for us, you know, urgency, you know, clients come to us with key people needs and one of the reasons they come back to work with us is they feel our passion and urgency as it relates to sort of delivering on that search. We're very thoughtful about managing workloads and that allows us to really put in the resources to deliver for our clients. And when our clients are reaching out to us there's an expectation on our end of urgency to respond and urgency to deliver. So I think as a service provider, 100% agree with Nancy there. The other piece I would say is we build our business on transparency and honesty. So I think when we're running search processes, we are incredibly open with our clients and our candidates about what's happening that provides sort of a platform to deliver. Right. You know, the biggest mistake you could have in a search process is getting to the end of the search process and being off, be it related to motivation or compensation. And so we're very deliberate about those conversations and we want to work with and invest in clients that sort of share those values. Finding those alignment is really important to us.
[45:23]
B
How important is it to work with clients that treat you side by side with them as a partner versus strictly a people vendor? In terms of getting to that alignment, in terms of getting that right for the client, it's critical.
[45:37]
H
Stakeholder alignment is absolutely critical in delivery. So you know, both the hiring manager and the operational HR teams that are on searches, there needs to be alignment and our role is to facilitate for them and ensuring that we are aligned on process in terms of the interview strategy, in our role being there to deliver for them. We're not adversarial, we're there to support them. And I think making sure they feel that early on, particularly by results and delivering great people into search process helps you build credibility. But the alignment is critical to delivering in a timely manner.
[46:20]
B
Thank you. And Jason, let me ask you this question. You're investing now in a number. I've taken founder driven companies. Maybe tell us a little bit about the types of companies you're investing in and what sort of leads you to think we should double down and really look closely at this company or this effort versus no, not, not something that we're going to put money into. How do you sort of look at that as to at least initial levers of yes, we should look more closely at this versus no, for whatever reason, we're not excited about it.
[46:54]
K
Yeah.
[46:54]
I
So we, as I mentioned, invest exclusively in defense, sort of broadly defined. So that can include everything from AI infrastructure to energy to space to drones. We happen to be most focused on sort of the rebuild of the US industrial base, so kind of manufacturing and supply chain as it relates to US defense and national security. And so, you know, I think with, with anything investment or otherwise, the people are critical, especially at these stages of these, of the businesses that we look at. We generally don't do early. Early stages are not pre seed or seed companies, but these are generally series A, series B, series C companies. So you know, they may have 10, 50, maybe 100 people at their organization, but they're almost always actually exclusively led. And so people are critical in whatever industry that you're in. In this space that I'm operating in, these are long term investments.
[47:56]
D
Right.
[47:57]
I
This is not a trading strategy. You're not flipping in and out of it, you know, in three or six months you're, you're married in many ways. And on top of that you have the sensitivity of the industry that they're operating in that we are operating in. Right. Being defense and national security. And so the integrity of the person that you're investing in or supporting in supporting is really paramount. And so for us, there's obviously a lot of metrics we look at before deciding to make an investment or even to continue with the diligence process. But if the person at the top is not someone that we believe in and trust and want to be on a journey in for five years, five plus years, the rest of it doesn't matter, you know, the process will just end right there. So I think people is really number one.
[48:44]
B
And how much is the defense and security investment changing? If you went back historically, you know, wars would go on over years. There was time to get the supply chain up to speed. Now it seems if that supply chain is not up to speed quickly, I mean, you hear rumors in D.C. about do we have enough missiles for stuff and so forth. How much is the business of investing in defense changing from what it was traditionally, I take it? Tremendously. But any insight there without getting us in trouble with the National Security Administration?
[49:15]
I
Yeah, I mean it's night and day for various reasons. One, defense was never really considered investable from private capital or venture capital. Some of that was politics, some of it was otherwise. That has changed over the last call it 10 plus years, but really accelerated in the last five. But more broadly and more directly to your point, we've known throughout the military and the industrial base that we face challenges and for a while just didn't matter. Right. And then Russia invaded Ukraine and we looked to support them and send millions of munitions and other materials over which depleted our stockpiles. We said, oh, you know, this could be a problem if something were to happen. And then more recently you have the conflict in the Middle east with Iran and that's sort of been the eye opener for us. That's gone from more theory into real world, you know, oh crap. We have this many Patriot missiles, we shot this many of them. What are we going to do? And the reality is that the existing industrial base and supply chain can't support the demand that exists both for ourselves and for our allies. A lot of that has been decades in the making. Post Cold War, we being the government, really forced consolidation within the defense ecosystem. We went from 50 plus prime contractors, as it's known, to just a handful today. That was government forced consolidation. And we're now dealing with the consequences of that. It's a supply chain that relies on overseas in various parts of it, including China. And that's dangerous for obvious reasons. So the rebuild of that is critically important.
[51:09]
B
One more question. From a defense perspective and an investment perspective, different sort of providers seem to be loved or hated by the particular administration. So if Pulitzer is loved by this administration or may or may not be, or Elon Musk is loved by this administration, how much concern is there as an investor that there's pushback or reaction to that with the next administration? When so much of the sort of ultimate customer is the government or national security, how important is it that you understand the politics in defense investing?
[51:47]
I
Yeah, it's an unfortunate reality of it. I think our hope, and there is some truth to it, that at the end of the day the national security of the country and our interests overseas can transcend politics. But I think to much extent that's wishful thinking, especially these days. So it definitely plays into it. It's a question we get often from our investors. What I typically say is I think the size of the budget is undoubtedly political. The current administration is proposing a one and a half trillion dollar budget. We're going to have a fight over that. We're going to have midterms coming up. And that is undoubtedly a political question. The rest of it to me, as far as reshoring our supply chains, making them more resilient, being able to produce the munitions and the systems that our military needs, for the most part that's bipartisan and you can see around the edges where things get politicized. But at its core I think that is broadly bipartisan. And a lot of the, a lot of the initiatives that are underway as far as embracing new technology, embracing Silicon Valley, moving away from the legacy defense contractors, a lot of that actually started under the Obama administration with the creation of what's called the Defense Intelligence Unit, which is the diu. And that has really grown rapidly to now have a multi billion dollar budget today. And you've seen throughout administrations, the Biden administration, the Trump administration, A lot of support getting behind these new entrants. So we think a lot of that continues. But undoubtedly politics filters into all of this and it's something to be aware of.
[53:27]
B
Thank you. I'm going to ask each of you the following question and then come back to a couple other questions. And Ben, I'll start with you here. You get the situation, and I'll adjust this question a little bit for Jason and Nancy. But you get a situation where somebody looks great on paper as a candidate, as an interviewee for a job. What's a friction point? What's a point where you say the person looks great on paper, but this person's probably not going to work because of what stands out to you. Once in a while when you see somebody that you're trying to add to an executive team, a leadership team. But what are red flags in? Nancy, I'll ask the same thing about you. And then Jason, I'll ask you the same question about investing in companies. What might be a red flag? Even though the business plan looks good, the people look good, what might be a red flag? Jason or Ben first. Sorry about that.
[54:15]
H
Yeah, that's right. So I would say when running a search process, I think you're assessing candidates against particular competencies and experiences that are relevant for whatever role. Depending on the industry or function, those, of course, will change. I think what we look for when we run search processes is one, we create behavioral interview questions where we're asking candidates to show examples in their backgrounds, through their experiences. So tell me about a time when. And what that does is it helps mitigate bias in interview processes because you're asking consistently the same sort of questions. And what you're looking for is consistency. Right. So as you work through interview processes and you meet candidates multiple times, when you're diving into both their backgrounds and motivations, you're looking for consistency. And if things shift throughout the process, it makes your ears perk a bit.
[55:15]
B
Right.
[55:15]
H
So that. That I would say is something that we're certainly looking for and gives a bit of a flag if something shifts dramatically as it relates to their motivation or compensation. Things like that give you pause.
[55:30]
B
One of the things that happens is in. We used to judge this poorly when somebody come in for a job and then ask for 20% higher compensation than we were. You're trying to give. Sometimes we would give that compensation, but then we'd have really high expectations for that person. They were almost penalized for asking for too much. How much? You get into these emotional situations between sort of hires and companies in the interview process that could set the stage poorly for the longer term fit or alignment.
[56:00]
H
Great, great question. It is unlike people may think the compensation and motivation question come up in the first call and then it's, it's reinforced throughout the process. So we're eager to understand why you're looking to make a move in our situation. You know, we're going to them so they, you know, they haven't applied for the job, but we've, we've gone to recruit them. But we want to understand the why One of the drivers, you know, is it, is it a new manager? Internally, were you mixed missed for a promotion? So we're asking all these questions at the beginning. Do you want to relocate for family reasons? These are questions we're asking at the beginning. And equally we're aligning on compensation expectations from the beginning as well. Because again I alluded to this previously. When you bring a candidate into a search process and you have a conversation initially about what compensation expectations are, of course there could be some nuance, but there's an expectation and understanding on both sides going back to transparency and honesty that that's the way in which we're operating. Right. So those conversations are front loaded and shared with our clients from the beginning. And any sort of big deterrent from that things changed.
[57:17]
B
Thank you. Nancy, let me ask you this question. So many people transition from being a professional into being a CEO, a leader, and you're the managing partner. Any advice in making that transition from being sort of a day to day practicing lawyer at the highest level to actually sort of running the firm, managing the partnership? Transitions and leadership. Any advice for people on transitions and leadership?
[57:45]
L
Sure.
[57:46]
J
I like to try to force myself and my own transition to always think about what kind of leader of the law practice did I want to see when I was a young associate or a young partner and what was it? What did I think was very positive in leaders that I served under. So I try to replicate that and remind myself of what it was like back many years ago. But I'm, and I'm also asking them what is it that you need? What do you think we should be doing? We, we do have regular meetings. Mark talked about regular cadence of communications. It's hard when you've got clients to serve and deadlines to stick with it. But we, we do try to do that and, and, and have people participate and that the other thing I do is, you know, I've had young lawyers come in and negotiate. I think they all feel like they need to negotiate A higher starting or initial compensation package. And so I usually respond by giving them as, as much as I can afford, but then also sit down and help them see the reality that it takes a long time for younger to mid level lawyers to generate the profits and the, the revenues to cover their expenses and so that they understand the economics that I'm personally investing in this individual and his or her professional career. And then they get, they get more buy in, I think if they see how they're contributing or not so much initially to the bottom line. And so I think sharing that sort of information and, and getting the feedback from the younger generation is, is kind of good for us older leaders.
[59:59]
B
I know that Nancy is actually quite young because I know she's two days younger than I am. So when she says older, I take offense at that. She's very, very young. Jason, let me ask you this question, Jason Ben, I'll ask you both this question. Both you started your own businesses, you're both founders. Talk a little bit about sort of any advice you would have to people starting a business and how anxiety provoking was it when you first got started or wasn't it? Jason
[60:28]
I
I think, I think the three of us have discussed this in the past. My biggest advice is to just go for it. I think think I had some kind of fits and starts over the years of things I thought I wanted to do and oh, is now the right time? The reality is it's never the right time and you'll always find an excuse as to why not to do it and you'll never be anywhere close to fully prepared to getting started. And so my advice, which over the years I should have taken my own advice on, is to just go for it. And, and the reality is you don't know what day one is going to look like, you don't know what year five is going to look like. And you're just going to have to figure it out along the way.
[61:12]
B
In terms of you raised a fund, what was it like to get your first couple commitments? How validating was that? How scary was that? How exciting was that? Just give us a moment on that.
[61:25]
I
Yeah, no, it was a rocky start for sure, for reasons that I won't go into too much detail on. But when I first started, started the business a little over two years ago, I thought I was being, you know, realistic in that I was not trying to raise a fund. I actually started for the first 12 or 18 months it was just me and I was doing deal by deal so I would source a deal and then bring it to my client base. And the first several were quite small. Fortunately, some of them have worked out to be potentially some of the best investments. All I've made, Xai, was the first investment that I ever did under Nomi and, and we're now exiting that through SpaceX. But yeah, that was, you know, there were, I think, five people or groups that invested into that deal. Some I had known, others I didn't. And you know, I'll be forever grateful and loyal and appreciative of those that supported me from day one and continue to support me to this day, including with the fund that we ultimately raised at the beginning of this year.
[62:30]
B
Fantastic. And Ben, a little bit of, just a moment on the anxiety, the excitement of starting your own firm. And what did that feel like?
[62:38]
H
Very real. I would say this. I think if you, as Jason said, you know, if you back yourself, if you believe in yourself, give it a go. Just give it, give it a shot. And I think what you'll be surprised about is how many people along the way are going to be eager to support you because it is a big transition, it's a big change. You're losing a lot of stability. But I would say that the anxiety that comes from starting the business is totally trumped by the excitement and pride that you have in terms of running your own business. And so, so give it a go and see where it takes you is sort of what I would say.
[63:28]
B
Nancy, one last question for you. The most satisfying piece of being a leader today, the thing that keeps your bucket full. What's the most satisfying part of leading the law firm and leading the three hockey sons? But let's sit with the law firm first because Nancy's got multiple full time jobs, but it's done an incredible job managing and driving the law firm. The most satisfying aspect of being a CEO, of being the managing partner.
[63:58]
J
Well, I like, I like the people, I like working with the people, I like them, trying to develop them professionally and watch them enjoy working with clients, achieving results for clients and working together as a team because it, you could win a case, but it's, it's only fun if you have somebody to turn to at the end of the day and go have a beer with and celebrate that win or, or commiserate on a loss if that's the case. And it all comes down to the relationships that, that we have and, and so trying to have of people be successful and enjoy what they do for a profession and want to come into the office and contribute, that, that's where it's at.
[64:55]
B
So no, I love that. I love that because everything done with a partner, with a colleague, with a team is so much more satisfying than solo. And so many people on the call today have built teams are part of teams and it really is what makes so much of the meaning in what we do. I want to thank each of you for joining us on this session again. All these sessions will also be released as an entire summit as well as individual sessions on the Becker podcast. But Jason, Ben, Nancy, always a pleasure to visit with the three of you. I love it because I get to hear more about what's going on in defense, what's going on in Ben's business, what's going on in Nancy's business. Really a great pleasure. I hope our audience enjoys it as much as I do. Thank you folks so much for joining us today. Thank you very, very much.
[65:44]
J
Thanks.
[65:44]
H
Thank you, Scott.
[65:45]
I
Thanks, Scott.
[65:46]
B
Thank you, folks. Fantastic. We're going to move on to our next session in just about 30 seconds. We've got a fantastic next panel. Again, we'll really be focusing on CEO questions. The agenda. We've got subtitles around efficiency, growth and resilience. But the reality is trying to get from our four panelists that are joining us next, we've got William Crawford, the CEO of a family office, Packlet Milken, Marion Crawford, founder, CEO and Crawford, one of the fastest growing branding marketing strategy groups in the country. Barry Tanner, been CEO of multiple different companies and I've had the chance over the years to serve on boards with Beary, one of the great CEOs and private equity sponsor CEOs of our time. And finally, Holly Buckley, who's the chair of the healthcare group at McGuire woods, who does this incredible job of working at the intersection of private equity and healthcare. I'm gonna ask each of you to take a moment as we get started. We've got got four great leaders joining us here. Let me start with Holly. Take a moment and introduce yourself and tell us about both the organization you lead and the biggest issue that's occupying your mind as a leader right now. And then William Miriam Berealski each do the same thing to tell us a little bit about your organization yourself and maybe the top issue you're thinking about currently. Holly, let me turn it to you.
[67:25]
M
Great. Thanks, Scott. And thanks to my fellow panelists. Very excited to be here today. I'm Holly Buckley. I chair the healthcare department of McGuire Woods. McGuire woods is an AmLaw 50 full service law firm. But we have was one of our flagship Departments, one of the oldest healthcare departments in the country with about 50 attorneys who are solely focused on healthcare. And we range from purely regulatory attorneys to, to transactional attorneys. We do a lot of work in private equity hospitals and health systems and various other players in the health care space. The biggest issue I would say I'm focused on right now is balancing growth with maintaining really high quality and equilibrium. Organizations that grow too fast can erode quality and culture and financial discipline. And so we, we very much want to grow, but continue to be great and really maintain and preserve our culture. So that's really where a lot of my time is focused right now.
[68:29]
B
Thank you. And I love that. And that's such a challenge that everybody faces if you're trying to grow and growing, maintaining the quality, particularly in whatever organization. But I see it particularly in that professional services organization, maintaining that quality, that responsiveness in how you operate. Marion, let me turn to you. Founder, CEO of Crawford. Talk a little bit about, introduce, tell us about Crawford. Tell us about the key issue that's occupying your mind. And don't worry about the fact that William Crawford is coming in and out of screen. We're just going to let that all go and not worry about it. Marianne, tell us about Crawford and what you do.
[69:12]
L
Well, thank you. It's great to be here and I've really enjoyed the first two panels. So I'm Marian Crawford, founded CE, founder and CEO of Crawford Agency. We are 16 years old and we have about 35 folks who are advertising and marketing based in Greenville, South Carolina. And we have worked since we opened the doors. We started out in healthcare. We have moved into higher ed, banking, tourism, retail. And it is never a dull moment. As far as what is kind of the biggest thing on my mind, it always is how do we get and keep the best people? And we want people who want, who love the work that we get to do and who are willing to really give their all for that. And then I would say, especially in our industry, AI is a big, has a big piece of my mind share at the moment because you can, pretty much anyone can go out and get some basic copywriting or basic design done on AI. So we are in a race to figure out how to leverage the right tools for the team to make us better at what we do. So it's, it's a lot, but it's exciting, never dull.
[70:37]
B
Let me ask you a question because you started this I don't know how many years ago exactly, but what's really remarkable, and Holly could say the same thing, about some of the clients that are served today. Today, some of the biggest clients are household names across the country from sort of a Greenville, South Carolina native agency. I know you work with nothing but Cakes, which is a national brand. That's every place Adidas ucb, which was a local bank that's become a huge regional bank. Talk a bit about the evolution of a firm from serving smaller clients to now serving brand name clients sort of across the country. And what does that look like and how do you think a strategy as you evolve from into larger and larger names and clients and customers and what you do for them. How do you sort of like as Holly said, keep up the quality as you grow like that. You're now 35 people. Give us a thought or two on that.
[71:37]
L
Well, it's, it's such a good question as we, it, it's really been very, very the Jim Collins flywheel. You, you got to push that flywheel continually. You cannot ever let up even if it starts to move. Because once you get these clients, if you want to grow and evolve and level up to a little bit larger client, more regional, more national in scale, you have to make sure you've got the talent. It comes back to the people, the talent that can do the jobs they need you to do. The jobs become more. The, the assignments become more specific in a way because for a large nothing Bundt cakes, they don't necessarily need us to be everything because they probably have several agencies that they're engaging across the marketing and advertising spectrum. Same with Adidas. But if we can get in and do a really good job and, and prove ourselves, be quick, be good, be, you know, better than good, deliver more than expected, then the door may open for us to have a little bit further and grow that relationship, which we're fortunate, has happened in many instances.
[72:53]
B
Thank you. And amazing to see what you've built and I've watched it from the inception. Really William, you're one of the smartest people that I know and a pleasure to visit with. Can you take a moment and tell us a little bit about yourself and your background? Because you've got this almost fascinating background, lawyer by background, Harvard graduate, you were actually an esteemed established musician at the highest level and combined all that to now run a very large, multi billion dollar family office. Tell us a bit about your background and some of the thoughts on what, what, where you spend the most your time focusing today. What makes you, what do you.
[73:35]
K
Well, thanks Scott. Glad to be here. And I'm also glad to know that if Even if I don't see myself up on the screen that you can still see me. So I'll make sure behave. Yeah. As Scott alluded to, I have a little bit of an odd background. I grew up in a small town in South Georgia, but I was a pianist, a classical pianist by background, went to undergrad and grad at the Jacobs School and then realized I'm not going to make much money as a classical pianist. I would guarantee that not many people on this podcast or this, this virtual presentation today have paid a lot for classical pianists lately. So I ended up going to law school. Fortunate to have, you know, you as a classmate and a roommate and a really close friend for the last 35 plus years. And you know, after being a lawyer working in a public company for the last dozen years or so, I've been at Packlett Milliken. We're a private investment firm, effectively a PE firm owned by the Milliken family. I would say we're like a PE firm with a couple of key differences. One, we are owned by a single family and perhaps more importantly, our capital allocation is permanent, meaning that we don't have to return our capital in seven or 10 or 12 years. We just pay dividends, much like a public company. A couple of percent of navigation per year. We're direct investors, meaning we don't make indirect passive investments or allocations to public markets. Usually we're 90% plus or wholly owned owner. Two divisions that don't really relate to each other at all. Energy and real estate. Energy has a really diversified group of assets. A small electric utility, a lot of different types of renewables, solar, hydro, wind, landfill gas, and most recently, really my favorite is woody biomass on the real estate side of the house. 50 assets across the US, California, Texas, Southeast, DC, New York focused on multifamily industrial, a little bit of self storage, last thing, maybe a couple hundred employees. The bulk of them are in our energy subs. And you know, this is somewhat related to the CEO point. I have to manage former Goldman bankers all the way indirectly down to people who work on electric lines. If I hop to your question about, you know, what issues I wrestle with, my wife would say I more than I would care to admit. But I guess really in my seven year tenure as CEO, there's one issue that's just kind of constantly at the top and that's optimizing my team, you know, so I got to make sure they play well in the same sandbox even though they're competing for the same pot of capital. You know, and everyone's got their own agenda, what they want to invest in, what they want their next job to be. And so you got to get them to subordinate that to the greater good. And so, you know, bottom line, my job is to make sure that the culture is good. CEOs, keeper of the culture. And that's what I think about every day.
[76:40]
B
Thank you. And I love that. And thank you for joining us. Barry, I've had a chance to see you work probably better than anybody I've known over the last 30 years as a CEO for probably several different one, several different private equity sponsored firms. Whether you like it or not, you keep on getting hired again and again. I saw you build one company from almost nothing, a founder owned company, into a billion dollar company that was sold to one of the largest companies in America. Talk a little bit about, talk about, about yourself. Give us an introduction and tell us what you're most focused on currently.
[77:22]
G
Well, Scott, thanks so much for having me. This is a great, this is a great opportunity and honor to be here with, with all of these great guests. I, to your, to your point, I guess I started my career as a cpa. I've been, I worked for KPMG for about six or seven years and then got bit by the entrepreneurial bug and really became more of an operator. Both almost always in healthcare, but early on in the finance side where you and I met, and then later on in the operating side. I love the healthcare field and I'm currently serving as CEO of a company called Respire Home Care Services. It is, it is a, is classified as a DME company, but within that huge DME space we are very much a niche operator delivering complex respiratory care to patients in their home. Think predominantly patients who are on ventilators, often tracheostomies, a lot of ALS patients, and a sort of a subspecialty, if you will, in the pediatric market. Of that. What I'm focused on, I would say mostly right now is trying to raise the bar in terms of what it means to deliver care to complex respiratory patients in their home and to do so by really differentiating ourselves, really raising the bar. I mean the standards are set by the typical regulators, Medicare being sort of one of the big ones, Medicare, Medicaid. But when I looked at this space, I thought to myself that that care doesn't feel sufficient and I want to really raise the bar. I'd have that be the differentiator for Respire. So that's what I, and that's what I'm really spending most of my time on right now and I'm trying to get there in a whole number of ways. Certainly, certainly cultural is where it all begins. Delivering care in the home, I think has a lot to do with a coordination of a large team of people who make it all happen.
[79:40]
B
Let me ask you this question, Barry, and I'm going to bring Holly and Marion a very similar question with a slightly different spin on it. But this question you talk about, about differentiating services in sort of an information overload world. How do you sort of both present and execute in a way where you could start to really differentiate, where people sort of recognize we should work with this company. And you've obviously done this. This is not a new thing. I, I knew you best in working with physicians endoscopy for a very long time. Then you worked with an oncology platform that I think was owned by Cardinal or bought by Cardinal. But, but how do you differentiate yourself in a very commoditized, very information overloaded world? How do you do that so your company sets apart and either gets premium pricing or is well recognized in the market and, and effective and successful at growing.
[80:34]
G
Yeah, it is a great question and I think it, it always like in many things, Scott, it boils down to people. I think especially in healthcare today, once you move outside of primary care and more into the specialty side, it's hard to really understand exactly for a consumer, the quality of care. But there's one thing I think every single one of us understands and that is the feeling of being cared for. And I think that is something that is delivered by people who have passion for what they're doing and who have compassion for the people that they're interacting with. And that is largely cultural driven. And I, and so when I said what is this all about? This is about creating a team of people who believes in what they're doing and who believes that their interactions with patients and with team members, because team members, it's sort of like a chain of events all the way from the people who are in house supporting the clinicians who go to see the patients. It's this chain reaction if everyone feels supported and passionate that will carry through to that, that being cared for, feeling at the patient level. And I hate to say it's got but that is a differentiator today in
[82:04]
B
today's market, that kind of response and that actually caring for the patient, for the people. And we see that at large health systems that really focus both culturally and you constantly hear it around the safety and taking care of the patient and others don't. And you really do feel it over time. Holly Marion, let me ask you this question. I'll start with Holly first is you've built this tremendous group and then also a practice in private equity and healthcare within that group. How do you think about how you go to market and attract clients? How much of that is niche centric, one on one marketing? How does that look in terms of going to market and building a client base?
[82:57]
M
Yeah, I'm gonna answer your question, but also a slightly different question because as you were speaking with Barry, it kind of got me thinking about, I kind of sell in two different ways, right? I sell to clients and prospective clients, but also to potential attorneys who may come and join, join the firm through our growth initiatives. And I recently had a conversation with five or six partners who have recently joined us, each individually from different places, so that I could better understand what our core differences are and what our selling points are and what's unique about us. So I've been at McGuire woods my entire legal career. I've just had my 17 year anniversary. So other than talking to people in the market, I don't truly know how we're different from others. I don't internally know that. Like I have to learn that. So I think kind of step one in terms of going to market is really knowing yourself and knowing who you are as a, as a business person, as a, as a company, as a culture, and how you're different from other people. And then how do you communicate that in a way that resonates with your audience? And I think that's true whether you're selling legal services or selling your firm is somewhere for a partner to come and join us. And so in terms of the niche centric thing, Scott, I mean, you've been kind of the teacher of all of us in terms of how to build a practice. And I think the niche approach has always worked incredibly well because too many people try to be all things to all people. But when you can go out and say, I am the person for this, and I know this better than anyone else, and I can add value because of my deep and specific knowledge that's so much more useful to people than when you just say, I can do anything for you and be a jack of all trades, it just doesn't have the same appeal. And so I think in terms of building my legal practice, I very much focused on the, the things that I uniquely can do better than other people. But I think in order to do that, you really have to Know yourself in order to take yourself Wealth 2 Market.
[85:09]
B
Thank you. And Marion, let me ask you this question and how you've built a premier team and a premier group. Marion, similarly you've built sort of the premier agency firm in the South Carolina region, the North Carolina region. You just built this great agency, 35 people now and very close customer relationships. I know the relationship with one of your clients goes back a very long time and you've ended up staying outside as leadership for that. That and that's the same with a lot of your clients. Very, very close client relationships. How do you continue to bring in client relationships and how do you brand yourself as a firm as to are we the, are we the. The best regional firm? Are we the best in banking? Are we best in. In. In. In food and beverage? And then how do you maintain the quality as you grow the firm from what it was originally mom and pop firm to now 35 full time professionals to continued growth? How do you both branch yourself as to what do you want to be? I mean I think if you now is sort of the highest end best firm in the region and really deep in certain areas, how do you think about that and how do you maintain that quality as you grow?
[86:29]
L
Well, we are currently and have been since the beginning a full service agency. So we are not a niche although we have developed deep expertise in potential in certain areas. So for example I would say when we are going to market ourselves we're looking at if we're talking depending on who we're talking talking with, are they the ideal client in that they match a couple of criteria. One, are they in an industry where we have expertise banking, health care, travel and tourism, retail, any of those kind of higher education? Are they, do they need a service where we really shine? I mean there, there are a lot of ad agencies out there. There are not as many that are really, really good at both advertising and communications on the PR side of the house. Because I come at it from a PR background and we've recruited people around the core to be really, really excellent at what they do. Media and creative and communications and all of the digital aspects because we've recruited that we have all of the services in house but we don't necessarily go to and nothing bundt cakes and try to be everything. We figure out what is their specific need and how do we match that need. So you're right. The other thing is we're very, very focused on the humanity of our business. I, at our staff meeting I'm, I'm always sort of a drumbeater of the fact is the people in our business, whether they're in this building or they're people that are in our clients clients offices, they are people and we need to know them as people and care about them because that way we'll do a better job.
[88:27]
B
Let me ask you this question about leadership, Mary, because you, you mentioned this, you came out of a specific background. Most people in business would immediately bias towards doubling down on that background and hiring more people like that. What was the realization, what was the light bulb? What drove you to say, I can't just have all PR people, we need to be broader than that. And obviously you're a really gifted person. But, but what was it that led you to think about we got to hire people that fill out the team, but we also can't be in 30 different areas, we got to be really deep in a few. What was that light bulb that led you to hire outside of your own expertise? Was it client driven? Was it something that you saw? How did that come about out it's opportunity?
[89:13]
L
When a client said to me, I need this. Can you do it? And this happened on a number of occasions. And William Crawford will definitely remember this. When the client asked me if we could produce an annual report in some ridiculously short amount of time, I said yes, we can. And, and we figured it out over the fourth of July holiday and set up shop because. Because we knew that it was important. So then I looked at him and said, because he's always been a really strong background advisor at Crawford, I said we've got to hire creative, we have to have a creative director. And he said are you sure? And I said absolutely. This is something that is gonna, it's gonna change the game for us as an agency. We have to have that. And that was really the start of it is because we needed that. I couldn't just go outsource that. I needed to have, have core competencies in a few areas, as you said, in house. And we can still freelance. But I love the fact that we have such a strong team under this roof with so many diverse capabilities and we're all down the hall from each other except for a couple of remote employees who happen to have our last name, but hopefully they'll be back here one day. But those, the team members, we are constantly in this office sharing ideas, bouncing ideas off of each other, which I think makes us a way better integrated agency than we would be otherwise.
[90:39]
B
Fantastic. Quite frankly. Perry, let me ask you this question because so many CEOs struggle with this issue of how much do they stick in their lane. Like Holly and I at McGuire woods are in several lanes, but then periodically a client comes in at a different lane. And almost like Marion said, we're going to figure it out. If we can put the right people on it, we feel like we could do it. And also expanding the other lanes as well. But at the same time drove a lot of the business development around private equity investors in healthcare and healthcare hospitals and health systems and so forth. But then some opportunities you've ran different businesses. Gastroenterology business, a oncology business, now a home care business. Talk a bit about that. Looking at different lanes while sting in the core lane that you're in, how do you think about that? Because that's something that all CEOs need to wrestle with. William we'll come back to in a second because they're in two core lanes, real estate and energy. But how do you think about do you touch other lanes or is your timeline with your private equity funds that you better stick to the core? How do you think about that, the diversification versus being in a core lane?
[91:50]
G
I think I'm not sure whether I've really thought about this in the academic sense, Scott, but I maybe, maybe it's even a lack of self confidence. But I always feel I can only juggle so many things at once. And once I zero in on sort of a vision for a company, I have to first sort of figure out in my own mind what can this company be? What is it that is going to make us special and differentiate us. And it could could, it could be a level of care, it could be a variety of different things. But then I usually within a certain sort of range of motion, so to speak. I stay with that vision. I don't try to be all things to all people. I don't try to, you know, within that lane, I might do M and A, I might do de novo. But generally I want to within that vision that I have, I've never, I think I've never wanted to be the biggest at something. I don't want this organization to claim to be the biggest, but I do want to lay claim to being the best at what we do. And I think so within that I'm always juggling, trying, experimenting, especially in the care area. What is it that is going to make someone say, wow, that was different. That got my attention. And if we can do that within the healthcare sector, I think you're on your way. And that's what I focus on.
[93:25]
B
And Barry, I'm going to ask you one more question. In watching you operate over the years, what I've always been struck by is not 10 person executive teams, but typically a handful of core leaders in the executive team. You know, you know, where you're really directly managing, you know, back in the day and growing a billion dollar company, it was a handful of leaders. How do you think about the spread of management team versus how many key leaders a CEO wants to work with or should work with in really executing and aligning a vision? And obviously it differs by type of company, but I've seen you working in a very distinct way. I feel like, like. Any thoughts there?
[94:08]
G
I think I've always felt like having a relatively small team where all of us can wear the same hats, we're all more or less just interchangeable, we all begin to speak the same language, we sound the same, the vision is the same. If I'm not there, the next person who steps in, you, you really won't be able to detect any difference in terms of if, if you ask the question of where we're headed or why we do what we do, how we manage people, how we take care of patients, you'll get the same feeling and the same answer. So usually it's a, it usually ends up being a team of about four really special people. And you could substitute any one of us on any given day and you would have the exact same feel within the organization or throughout the organization. So it's really, maybe, it's maybe you would say depth as opposed to breadth, but you know, a small core team of people who are very deep in what we're doing.
[95:12]
B
Thank you, William. I'm going to ask you one question and then come back to each of you on what you're most excited about today and then we'll wrap up this panel. William, you've done a tremendous job within Paco Milliken of building resilience. How important is that, that building of resilience, building out your leadership team, particularly as you span a couple huge areas and have lots of assets under management, building that resilience in your investment team and leadership team, how important has that been to sort of maintaining stability and keeping things moving in the right direction?
[95:48]
K
Yeah. You know, Scott, that was probably the most difficult of all the questions you proffered, and I had to think about it a bit. It's obviously critical because you want the organization to continue after you're gone. And you know, my retirement is in the. I can see it in the future. And so it's critically important that I continue to develop that team. And I also want the team to be resilient internally, even without me. You know, I guess when I think about the company and how it's resilient, I would really say, say three things from a business standpoint. First of all, you got to keep things in perspective. Marion's heard me say this a million times. Rarely are things as good as they appear or as bad as they seem. So try and take the long review and that'll help you with, you know, as you're dealing with uncertainty. Second, be flexible. You know, you're going to start with a plan, but things are going to start changing on day two. And so you want to be. You want to be flexible and understand what you're willing to compromise on and what you're not. And then the last thing you know, I don't know that we ever remembered much that we learned in law school, but there was one class that I took and probably you did, too. It was Roger Fisher's negotiation class. And the one thing I remember from it is that he was always talking about improving your batna, which was your best alternative to a negotiated agreement. And that's basically working very hard to create optionality so that if you find yourself in a. In a difficult situation, you can actually, you know, have options. Don't find yourself in a situation where you need three things to occur in order for everything to be okay.
[97:24]
B
No. And I love that concept of the best alternative to negotiated arrangement. I think that is so right on. I think I could. I could say for the record that William and I were both housemates at Harvard Law School, and neither of us were valedictorian or salutatorian. But did four.
[97:41]
D
Fine.
[97:42]
B
Billy, Let me ask you one more question. William. There's a question from the audience, and it truly is a question from the audience, and I will. It says, ask William the tough question, like you asked me. Is Indiana football the real thing or not?
[97:59]
K
It's not a tough question. That's actually an easy question. There's a sports writer from Sports Sporting News who I said, I think he said he's done picking against Indiana until they lose. I would answer that by saying I think what Indiana did in football is the most remarkable turnaround, if not in the history of sports, in the history of college football. I don't think number two is close.
[98:24]
B
Anyways, enough of that. Let's move forward. Let me ask each of you, Barry, Holly, Marion, William, what are you most focused on and excited about going forward this year. 30 seconds each.
[98:36]
G
Barry, what I'm excited about is we have an enormous opportunity right now with Respire to, to emerge from the pack and be that company that people point to and say, what is it that they're doing that makes them so special? To me, that would be, that would be a huge victory. And that's what I'm 100% focused on. And we have, we have the team to do it. So that's what, that's my goal.
[99:03]
B
Barry, one last question. Go with that. How many companies have you now run as CEO from private equity sponsored companies you've ran? I know one of them you ran for a very long time with several different sponsors and you went through six or seven different sponsors and this incredible run till an exit for nearly a billion dollars. But how many companies have you ran now with CEO sponsors, with, with private equity sponsors?
[99:24]
G
Eight.
[99:25]
B
Eight. That, that, that is remarkable. Hollywood, what are you most focused on and excited about going into the rest of this year? Next year?
[99:35]
M
Yeah, I'm really excited about AI and kind of the transformation in the legal industry. It's scary, it's exciting, it's a huge transformation. And just looking at where we've come from in the last year to now, things are so incredibly different. And I think personally it's just been incredibly fun and interesting and so there's a lot more change to come. There'll be winners and losers and we're really committed to being a winner in all this. And so I figured we have to talk about AI a little bit because you can't go through a panel without it. So there you have it.
[100:09]
B
Thank you. And Marion, we're watching tremendous growth in your client base, in your firm. What are you most focused on and excited about currently?
[100:17]
L
Well, I think when I think about the opportunity, I'm really excited. But what, what really drives that is right now we have in my mind, the team we have today is the best that we've ever had in terms of the talent. We have people who've come from really big name agencies and in the world of advertising, Dentsu and GSD and M, Martin ep, those are big names and we've attracted those kind of folks here. And our president has really done a great job. Bryant has done a great job job at deepening our bench strength so that we can really effectively present to these larger clients a real solution and bring the, the talent necessary to do the work. And I guess I would be remiss if I didn't say that we have been successful and William has helped me with this in recruiting all three of the Crawford adult children to work here at Crawford. And so as of the last one joined in June, so it's really exciting to have not only these phenomenal teammates who selected and volunteered to work with us, but also our family as well. It's really exciting.
[101:31]
B
It is really remarkable. I was expressing to one of the kids yesterday, I was reading the book House of Fidelity, that remained a family owned business over a very long time and had to balance that with taking care of fantastic partners and colleagues in the business really well, which you are doing and are doing and really fantastic. William, let me ask you the same question. What are you most focused on and excited about currently?
[101:56]
K
Scott, I'm really shocked the other three guys, people didn't get this right. The right answer's got to be reading your book and learning from that book. I mean, that's, that's got to be number one. But the number two, the number two thing for us, which is a bit mundane but very, very real, is the data center development. Not AI per se, but if you recall, we own, we own land and we own an electric utility. So we're able to, you know, marry those two things together to create powered land. And you can take land that's, you know, worth 75,000 bucks an acre in an industrial park and make it 10 to 20 times more valuable. So it's an enormous financial opportunity for our family that we really need to, to take advantage of. And this is kind of. In closing, Scott, let me pick up on one thing that Barry said because I thought it really resonated with me when he was talking about the personal relationships. I remembered something. I don't know who said this, but it really, what Barry said reminded me of. People don't ever remember what you said, but they remember how you made them feel. And I think that's something that we as CEOs can think about a lot, is that people won't ever remember exactly what we told them, but we can, we can. They'll remember whether we made them feel valued and, you know, a part of the team.
[103:12]
B
I, I love that. I want to thank the four of you. Each of you are fantastic and it's a great pleasure to visit with you. And thank you so much for joining us. Holly Buckley, Barry Tanner, Marion Crawford, William Crawford. I want to thank all of you for joining us. A real pleasure to get to visit with you and thank you so much. And we'll lead on to our next panel in just one moment. I'll do one simple housekeeping Note, I want to take special thanks to Rosa McKenzie who's helping manage today, Lauren Eskenazi who did a tremendous job with audience development for this effort. We had nearly 450, 475 people registered for this CEO summit as well as a special thank you to Michelle Byers Robson and team and Jessica Joliff and Cosette Benjamin. So, so thank you all for all of your efforts. Let's move on to our next panel. We'll go for about 30 to 35 minutes. We've got our, our last panel which is actually just a magnificent group of speakers and thinkers and so excited to have you on. Thank you so much. We've got four leaders with you. With us. I see Caitlin's eye. There we go. Kaitlin Zula, David Shull, Brian Parker as well as Julie Claf. Tremendous group. I'll ask each of you to introduce yourself. Caitlyn, I'll start with you if you could take a moment to both introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your organization. I've known you for a long time. You were a leader at SEO Health and Optum and just one of the great leaders I've had a chance to visit with over the years. Take a moment and introduce yourself. Then I'll ask Julie Claf who's brilliant, David Scholl is fantastic and Brian Parker along to partner introduce themselves as well. Caitlin, let me start with you.
[105:07]
A
Awesome. Yes, thank you Scott. So honored to be here today. Thank you for the invite. Caitlin Zula, I'm CEO of Lumexa Imaging. Lumexa is one of the country's largest outpatient diagnostic imaging companies. You know, for context, we have have approximately 185 centers, we're in 13 states and we have a growing number of health system joint venture partnerships. I've been in this role for 18 months and then as you mentioned previously, I was CEO of Surgical Care Affiliates or SCA Health and then CEO of Optum Health in the East. Really excited to talk about scale. Lumexa started as a private equity backed collection of strong local businesses and the journey over the last 18 months has to really create a truly national scaled organization. But of course, as we all know, healthcare is rooted in our local relationships, right? So it's all about also preserving the local relationships and the clinical excellence that's made the businesses successful in the communities we're honored to serve. Last year we entered the public markets in December and certainly we've been focusing on continuing to build out our footprint through new sites, de novos, acquisitions New health system partnerships. We just signed a joint venture with HSS Hospital for Special Surgery. And then of course, just continuing to focus on how do we scale technology partnerships to make high quality imaging accessible, affordable, and then always patient centered.
[106:38]
B
And Kaitlyn, take a second. On scale. You've had this tremendous growth in scale since you've been there and you've watched different things scale over the course of your career. What are a couple of the things because so many of us struggle to really scale organizations, we get to a certain spot and it's very hard to scale systems and people and so forth. What are, when you think about scaling, what are a couple things that a CEO that a leadership team has to do to scale correctly and to grow, you know, well, maintaining, you know, margin. You know, as the old adage goes, there's no margin without mission. But how do you scale effectively? What are a few of the thoughts on that?
[107:19]
A
Yeah, gosh, you know, there's this concept that we talk about a bunch at Lumexa and certainly did at sca around S curves, right. And the concept that as you continue to go up the curve, your leadership model has to change and the behaviors that, that create that early momentum, moving quickly, staying close to every decision, personally solving problems that can eventually become a constraint. And so as I think through at scale, the CEO's job, my job is to create clarity. It's all about building strong leaders. I very much think team is everything and then establish the systems that produce good decisions without you, that singular leader needing to be in every room. We talk a lot about trust. One concept that I think about and talk about to my team a lot is the concept of say, do ratio. If you say it, you need to do it. And that culture around doing what you say you're going to do, building trust, having that consistency that matters always. But I think even more during periods of high growth and change, when teams are looking for that clarity and stability.
[108:32]
B
Thank you very, very much. Julie, tell us a bit, introduce yourself and talk a bit about your journey. You're an investor in several different companies through a private equity fund versus a leader. But you see so much of leadership. Just for the record, there's several Harvard graduates on the call today. Julie is by, by far the smartest of all of those. But Julie, take a second and introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what you're most focused on this year and then we'll talk later on some of you know what you see in the leaders in the companies that you're building.
[109:10]
N
Sure. Nice to Meet everyone. I'm Julie Clath. I'm a partner at Origami Capital Partners, which is a Chicago based private equity firm. We focus on, on credit oriented investments. Really special fits across a variety of different industries and sectors and across the capital stack. But I like to think of it as we're providing creative liquidity solutions for other sponsors, so other private equity funds and their portfolio companies. My background, like Scott said, I'm a lawyer by training. I spent several years in the private funds division at Sidley Austin here in Chicago, which was great training for what I'm doing now, which is more investment side focused. And it was actually how I connected with the current firm that I'm at. I was one of their outside lawyers and after I'd worked for them for a number of years, they approached me about coming over in kind of a joint hybrid legal and investment side role, which over the last 12 years, I've been there since 2014, has really transitioned more to investment side. And I'm on the firm's executive committee in our investment committee and really running deal execution across our platform. But as Scott said, you know, on a look through basis, our portfolio, which is just over a billion dollars, has probably 50 plus different companies as part of that portfolio. And our level of involvement in each company ranges a lot. You know, some we are in control of, some we are just getting quarterly reporting on and kind of everything in between. But Scott, as you highlighted, it's been a great opportunity to see a lot of different leaders across a lot of different types of businesses at different points in scale. Right. Some earlier in the life cycle, some at scale and global companies and sort of understanding what it takes to get
[111:01]
B
there and take a moment on that. When you see companies that you're invested in or side by side with sponsors in and things are going right, what do you see that's going right? What are the hallmarks of companies where they're, where they're performing and it's going well?
[111:19]
N
Yeah, I mean, something that Caitlin said I think resonated a lot with me, which is that people are everything. Right. And I would much rather have a C company with a people than an A company with C people. And so I think where you see things going right is where you have, you know, good people. There's, there's no substitute for a bad person or someone that, you know, isn't going to do the right thing, but where you have the right people and the right spots and where you're willing to make a change, you know, if that's not the case. And I think a lot of times people wait too long. And we've been guilty of this both internally and externally, right? Both internally within our own private equity fund and both externally with, at the board level, making changes at certain portfolio companies. Because you know what Caitlin said is right. What you need going from 0 to 10 million of revenue is very different than what you need going from 10 to 25 and 25 to 50 and so on and so on. And so making sure you have the right people in the right places, I think is number one. And the processes and the systems that follow that are also an important piece of it. But I think nothing is more important
[112:29]
B
than the people and making a change in the CEO of a portfolio company. How hard is that for a private equity investor? How challenging is that situation and how unfun is that situation?
[112:43]
N
I would say it's hard and it's unfun. But I will say that whenever we have had the instinct that it needs to be done, at some point, it always becomes the thing that is done. And it often, in hindsight is a situation of why didn't we do this sooner and why did we wait so long? And we were not smart for waiting as long as we did. And so almost universally, regardless of industry, regardless of sector, regardless of where we sit in the capital structure, when you have that instinct that you need to make a change, and I'm not saying you don't give people a chance and it's like one and done and someone makes a mistake, right? Mistakes are part of life and they're meant to be learned from. But when you get that sense that, that the leader is not the right leader in the company, it can be very challenging. But it's often sort of a necessary
[113:36]
B
change and there's a lot of inertia there to want to make that change, there's a lot of conflict often when you make that change unless that leader is really ready to go. There is so much conflict and challenge there, but so needed. And I love your thought that once you instinctually think it probably has to happen, that thought process often doesn't reverse itself over time. It usually continues on. Brian, let me turn to you. I had a chance to work with you for a decade plus. Love getting a chance to visit with you and work with you, take a moment and talk a little bit about what you do and some of the roles that you fill today.
[114:12]
N
Brian.
[114:13]
F
Oh, definitely. Hey, first of all, Scott, thank you. It's always good to get back together with a good friend from A long time ago. I love some Scott Bob. Some Scott Becker. You know I'm a partner with Parker, Poe, Adams and Bernstein Southeastern super regional law firm. You know I've developed kind of like a trusted advisor practice where I work day in and day out with CEOs, CFOs and boards of directors across different industries. In terms of scaling, it goes back to, you know, my early days with Scott at McGuire woods and creating and building the first industry group which was the life science group at the firm. Then going to market as a law firm back in the early 2000s as an industry group sort of focused marketing effort was something was unheard of. We did things by practice groups, we did things by departments. And for a young 36 year old equity partner to go in front of the executive committee of 100am law firm and convince them to do things different and for it actually to work out was when I first started to scale organizations and to take that mentality out into the workplace. I think back then Scott, if you remember we took that industry group from 5 million to 30 million in revenue and then just replicated that throughout the the firm and different industry group focuses. Our focus was on life sciences back then. Mine was pharmaceutical company, medical device companies and biotech companies. Created great relationships of trust with key leaders in the industry. Transplanted that same sort of mentality to the firm I'm with now, Parker Poe and then I kind of coupled it with my desire to really engage in board service and impact investing and it became a conduit to working across different types of industries, not just life science industries. So things like sas, automation, vertical farming, integrated wealth management services, health care. So I get in my day to day I can be a business trusted advisor for the law firm at the same time be a leader within pre series A post series A and sometimes more mature corporations at the board level and an impact vestor working with senior executive leader teams and also founders. So it's a, it's a good mix of understanding sort of those key just not typical board issues beyond risk and regulatory and compensation but more scaling and commercialization. So that's what keeps me busy these, these days in, in terms of scaling and, and growing in this economy of our Scottish.
[117:00]
B
Thank you Brian and take one moment on if you had to point to one thing that you're most excited about currently. Where are you most focused and excited currently?
[117:08]
F
Every day I get to work with these, these young companies that are growing in different segments and it might sound a little cliche but it is really directed. It's so fascinating what these young leadership teams are doing. Enclosed LLM models coupled with like imagination and creativity. I've seen it in the vertical farming space, I've seen it in the SaaS space. I've seen it in integrated wealth management space. It's amazing what these tiny teams are doing and how they're changing sort of the culture and the platform of growth in our capital markets.
[117:47]
B
Thank you very, very much. David, you are nothing but a force of nature. You're president of Russo Partner. You're about the most connected person that I know. Give the audience a little bit of an intro. And you do so many things beyond what a traditional sort of what public relations firm does. I mean, you're involved in so many things as a deep institutional partner. Talk about what you do, what Russo Partners does.
[118:13]
O
Well, first off, I appreciate being in the cleanup spot here and following Brian Parker is an honor. I feel that's a Pittsburgh contact right there. You gotta love it. So Resale Partners, it's a boutique public relations firm and strategic consultancy. My team members, and we have 26 are primarily scientists, PhDs, we have PhD MDs playing off of Brian's talk of life Sciences. In your healthcare practice that you built in law, we did the same thanks to my business partner, Chairman Tony Russo. Our client roster is comprised mostly of emerging healthcare companies, biopharmaceuticals, medical devices, diagnostics and healthcare services. So I've crossed paths with Scott many times. Because of your publications as well as the work you do in providing counsel. The majority of our work is focused on creating the profiles to support corporate initiatives which are fundraising, business development, recruitment and retention. On occasion we have clients with marketed products and so you can call it sales support. But we're known for corporate reputation building, for multi pronged public relations and investor relations strategies. And because we've been doing this, the agency was born in 1988 with my partner with 40 plus years. I have 31 years of experience. We're well known and well connected in the industry.
[119:40]
B
Scott and T, at what point did you decide to be all in on sort of pharma biotech and so forth? Because I see you in those sectors. And is it entirely pharma biotech? I mean I see you with startup public companies, public companies all the way across that spectrum with really bright people and so many interesting different initiatives. I see you with Lee Steinberg recently, who's fascinating. I had a chance to interview with former NFL player that works with you. Solomon Wilcox, correct?
[120:14]
F
Yeah.
[120:14]
B
Talk a little bit about how did you End up in the niche. And are you entitled in the niche?
[120:20]
O
So let's talk about our focus. We are 95% focused on healthcare. We do some technology work because of relationships that we've established over the years with chief technology officers. One of my close friends, Rob Strickland, was the chief technology officer at a little company known as T Mobile. But it's primarily health care. The agency was born when Tony Russo, back in the 80s, was working at a large firm in New York City, and he and a partner, Susan Noonan, decided to focus exclusively on healthcare because of their passion for it. If you think about it, the connecting here is we're helping people. So by working in the healthcare industry, we know that we can indirectly and directly impact our own health, our future, and those of the generations after us. So it's very rewarding to work with individuals who are developing the new cancer treatments, the medical devices, those who are providing the health care services. Now, the industry has changed. The evolution since the beginning is obvious, but we are clearly focused on this space. And with that, we have a network that's extensive. Now, I'm one of the older statesmen in the industry and I'm proud of it because I was at a CEO conference for biotech executives in Napa Valley. You saw me there a few weeks ago with Lee Steinberg. That was all peer to peer learning. We're in a closed room. We could discuss challenges that the CEOs of public and private biotech companies address. And so that's our niche.
[121:55]
B
Let me ask you this question, David, because I've seen you do this over a long period of time. I mean, aside from raising fantastic children who I've had a chance to visit with, one of which is a pro pickleball player now, one of which is a financial person who's just fantastic. But you've also maintained this tremendous energy over a long period of time, which I think is so important for CEOs and leaders. How do you do that? How do you take care of yourself so that you're able to show off up in the way that you constantly show up? I have a high energy level. Your energy level intimidates me.
[122:29]
O
It comes from the sports background from 40 years ago. But anyway, first off, what the driving value for me and for my teammates is passion. And so if you look at the values that we have at Russo, and we hire against them and we evaluate against them as part of performance, performance reviews, one of the values that stands out is passion. I say it now, we do this because we care and because we enjoy it. I'm sure the majority of the individuals here, I've looked at your backgrounds, we do it for the same reason. And with that passion, we get excited about the opportunity to help. So how do we do it and sustain it? Again, there's no retirement in sight for me. Or maybe my business is partners in several years. But because we enjoy the opportunity to work with people in health care and to connect them to investors, to connect them to the media, to help them, we're more than a public relations consultancy. The network is extensive. The area that you see me in that's fun is sports health. So all of us know that the intersection of sports and health is one that's obvious. And when you look at who gets the best treatment, if Tom Brady is injured, then I'm sure that Caitlin up in New England back in the day would say, if Tom had that surgical procedure, I'm having the same. So through my classmate and teammate at University of Colorado, Solomon Wilcox, 10 years ago, we created a sports health alliance to support healthcare initiatives for multiple clients.
[124:01]
B
Scott, thank you very, very much. Let me move back to Caitlin and then Julie and then Brian and you. 30 seconds or a minute, Caitlin. Best advice for CEOs. When you think about giving advice to another CEO, and doubtless you talk to lots of other CEOs, plus you mentored lots of leaders in the organizations that you run. Best advice for CEOs.
[124:27]
A
Gosh. So I probably have two. The first one being honor what got you here, but don't idolize it. As Julie said, the concept of the successful company reaches a point where that strength that powered you to that first chapter aren't sufficient for the next one. And I think that awareness around
[124:48]
J
how
[124:49]
A
do you evolve the team, the systems, protect the culture before there's an obvious crisis. And then the second one, I think, is as you're leading organizations through those transformation times of transformation and, and growth, you have to lead with clarity and with empathy and with purpose. And then, you know, protecting that culture. You know, I think transformation brings uncertainty and, you know, people have different levels of excitement or anxiety around change. And so just the paramount of how do you make sure you're communicating with a clear vision and very importantly, explaining the why behind the, you know, the change. And then, you know, I think orienting in your mission, right? Individuals, you know, people, they don't, they don't necessarily need direction. They need to feel connected to the mission and they need to understand their role in shaping the future. And then, you know, through it all, never Losing sight of that culture. You know, the culture is the foundation that determines, you know, whether. Whether the transformation takes root and endures.
[125:56]
B
And talk about it a second. And Julie mentioned as well, the founder, the CEO of a $10 million company making that transition to a 50 to $100 million company. You know, there's this old adage, I think it was Marshall Goldsmith adage, what got you there won't get you here. What got you here won't get you there. Whatever the exact phrase is. But those are such different skill sets. That person that gruesomely to 10 million is very different than somebody who could systematically operationalize things. I mean, you know, Amber Walsh. Well, I had helped build the practice. Amber was so much better at sort of managing the people, growing it to scale and nurturing people and those kinds of things. You see different from one level to the next level. How do you think about that with CEOs, with leaders and getting rethinking, Think differently from firestarter to grower? How do you think about that?
[126:52]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a part where not every person is the right person for every chapter of a company. I am 18 months into Lumexa. Lumexa started with an investment from Welsh Carson in 2018. I am probably more like Amber. As I was leaving OptumHealth, obviously a gigantic enterprise, I was talking to different VC firms and private equity about what would come next. And I knew I wasn't the sort of person to start with something very small. But what I loved was taking something that had size and scale to it. LeMax is over a billion in revenue. And thinking through how do we take these pieces and optimize them for the next chapter? So I think it's very different skill set. And I think having that understanding of what, you know, intrinsically, what motivates you as a CEO, and then what are the skill sets you need around you? And of course, you know, honoring the amazing people who were able to get Lumexa from, you know, the first three chapters. But also having the, you know, understanding that they not might not be the next person or the right person to take it for the, you know, the next five chapters.
[128:04]
B
Thank you. And Julie, following up with the same question and best advice for founders and also with your different companies, as you see CEOs, founders or CEOs, best advice, as you see different CEOs that were great through one chapter, can they be coached to be great to the next chapter? Or is it at some point where there's a natural need for change in the company's leadership, or is it case by case?
[128:32]
N
I think it's case by case. And I'll come back to that. You know, I think some people can be coached and some people can't be coached. And often founders, I find, have a harder time being coached than someone who's been brought into the role. I think there's just less emotional attachment from someone who's brought in a CEO versus someone who started something from the get go. But I think advice I'd give to portfolio company CEOs and advice I think that we've kind of lived by at Origami is to hire people that are both smarter than you are or at a minimum, maybe balance you out in different ways. I have two partners at Origami, and we are very, very different. Right. And we serve very different kind of roles and personalities within our organizations and can balance each other out in terms of both the things that we're good at, but also just some of our personality traits around flexibility and, you know, kind of how we relate to other people. The other piece of advice, you know, I'd give to CEOs, and we've had to take this under advisement as well, is to kind of know the difference between having grit and determination and knowing when it's time to pivot. Right? And you have to find the right balance there. Right. As a CEO, you have to be relentless. And you can't just throw your hands up and give up. Up, Right. Just because something doesn't work the first time. But if you continue to run into a brick wall, like again and again and again, you gotta have the clarity at some point to say, all right, this isn't working.
[130:02]
M
Right?
[130:02]
N
And you know, we don't like at my own organization right now, in private equity, the mantra has always been bigger is better. Grow fund size, grow aum. And that's gotten a lot harder in the last five years, right. Ever since post Covid. And we can go down that rabbit hole if you want to, but I think at a certain point, we kind of had to look around and say, maybe bigger isn't better. Maybe being smaller and more nimble for a period of time is better. Turn inward, focus on asset management, find our biggest and most important platforms, and really give the time and attention to those and grow those. And maybe that's the future. And that wasn't for a lack of really trying for a period of time.
[130:44]
B
And, Julie, let me ask you this question. When you look across the 50 portfolio companies that you've invested in over time, without mentioning names of people. When you think about the characteristics of the best CEOs, the best leaders, I'm sure some come to mind. What were those things that they did differently, that they did really well that made them so successful?
[131:07]
N
I think the number one thing is being able to see someone else's perspective and to not be too dug in and convinced of like whatever you think is the only way, you know, you see people that are like, my way is the highway and if you don't get behind me, then you're no longer part of this. But I think that the CEOs that I've seen be the most successful can obviously have confidence in their decision making capabilities and the path that they're leading the organization around, but they're able to listen. And if someone around the table has an idea, whether it's at the board level or their CFO or their chief revenue officer, whoever it is can say something to them that may undermine an idea that they have. And the most successful CEOs are the ones that can sit there and, you know, tolerate some level of criticism, but use that constructively and use that to take them forward, down, you know, a slightly new path, or, you know, take it in a positive way. The people that have failed are the people that have very limited flexibility.
[132:17]
B
Love that and thank you. Brian. You've worked with a ton of different leaders and CEOs. Your best advice for founders and CEOs,
[132:26]
F
you know, I think to keep it simple, Keep close to your customer. Really, really know your customer. The things that I've seen through board, service, impact investing and being a trusted advisor is they lose their way because they, they've lost what they're doing. They don't know who they're really dealing with. They have an idea who their customer is. It changes, you know, it evolves over time. Stay close to the market, stay close to the product fit. I always really emphasize that. And then one of my pet peeves too, I always give like this stupid little speech when I sit down whenever, like first founder, whether I'm looking to make an investment or I'm looking and I've been asked to join the board, you know, I always ask them like, what is your decision making process? So the lawyer in me goes through, you know, the fiduciary duty of loyalty and care and well informed decisions, you know, after, you know, reasonable consultant with experts. But at the end of the day, a business is a series of processes, right? And everybody knows on this call, like a decision has to be made almost Every hour, hour or every other hour. And how you make those decisions, they always don't have to be the right ones, but they definitely do have to be the well informed ones for the time parameter and where the company sits, but even more importantly, the cadence of decisions. So I've seen the situation where, you know, you could have two very similar corporations on pathways in different industries, but you have a, a better decision making process with one leadership team or one founder as opposed to the other, and it can be detrimental to the health of the company. So those are some of the things that often come into mind when I talk about giving advice.
[134:09]
B
And Brian, let me ask the same question I asked Julie. You worked with lots of different CEOs, lots of different leaders. When you think about the best leaders you've worked with, or even thinking about one or two, what are the things you see that they're doing that are different than others? What do you see that they do particularly well?
[134:30]
F
You know, I think that beyond you, one of my favorite leaders is Jamie Dimon. And you know, he has this quote, you know, you never accomplish anything great alone. And the amount of time that a leader I think needs to put into team development, building resilient teams over time and being agile and how that that product or that service is delivered is, is the one thing I really think distinguishes great founders from good founders. Right. And helps them make that transition from a founder led corporation to an executive executive team with systems. Going forward, it's, it's always a selfless act, but it's always about building the best and the talented teams that in my opinion, separate one set of founders to great founders.
[135:22]
B
No, I love that. And I've had a chance to work with lots of different CEOs over the years. The only thing I could say that I love is like when I watch Barry Tanner was still on, I sort of know how he's going to lead and this is how he does it. And it's a real positive. We've seen Kaitlin Zula in several different roles and sort of see this is how Kalyn operates. And for people that are in those organizations, that kind of consistent, that kind of clarity is so helpful for an organization that I really admire it. Whereas other leaders, you have no idea which person showing up that day or what their leadership style is. And that's never a great thing. And I actually love Brian's reference to Jamie Dimon because I do think he's one of the best of this generation and has been steadfast and principled over A very long period of time. And I love that. David, you've worked with a lot of founders. You're a president yourself. Best advice for leaders, for CEOs, what advice do you give other CEOs and leaders?
[136:25]
O
I'm not going to talk about the core leadership traits because those are typically the obvious. But what's critical that we see is building the corporate culture. That's one of your most important responsibilities. And there are three areas in prepping for this that I took note notes on. Number one is talent matching, which means that think about it as the CEO of the Chicago Bears. Scott, if that were you or Beckers, you have to be the owner, the general manager and the coach combined. So putting the best people in the roles where they can succeed, where do they add the most value. But then you also have to act efficiently and make changes when things aren't working and those in decisions that are critical to the success of the team. Something that we talk about at Russo Partners is the term psychological safety. I know it sounds as it's a two words. It's a lot, but it's actually not. We want to create as leaders a safe space where the individuals on our team, they can question what we're doing, they can share bad news and we can learn from these mistakes together. There shouldn't be fear of making mistakes because we have to continue to innovate. And the most important trait that we find, and we see this in the good leaders who are mentors. Empathy. Empathy is critical. Listen to the team members. Treat them and everybody with whom we interact with respect. That's something critical to us. And you'll see it whether we're checking into the hotel in Chicago with a front desk clerk or if we're at a meeting with executives discussing the next financial the round of financing. So these are the things that we talk about in our meetings.
[138:11]
B
You mentioned that last one and I love that you see people in business or in personal life treat some people with the kind of like way that you would never want to see people treated. And there's and it reflects on them so poorly. And you think about them like that. Then like the person who treats the waiter poorly. The person who treats, you know, there was, you know, we played golf at some place and sometime this weekend somebody fired their caddy for making bad reads. I mean, are you kidding me? It's just horrible abhorrent behavior.
[138:44]
O
I have another example. So when I was at the meeting in Napa, we had a UN like roundtable set up with microphones among 65 of us and then a panel. We had a brilliant executive who contributed throughout the discussion. But when he lost a personal item, he got into an argument with the waitstaff which immediately reflected negatively on him and our perceptions of him for inviting him back. And I say we treat everybody with the greatest respect because they have their family members and more. And that's what we teach our teachers.
[139:18]
B
David, one other question, and I've seen this because I've been introducing them by you. You work with big biotech companies, small biotech companies, sometimes the sort of creators, drivers of these small biotech companies are really interesting people. Some of them are really sort of driven, insane smart and so forth. How do you then build the culture around someone like that? When you've got some of these people that are crazily brilliant entrepreneurs, but also, you know, can be really interesting to difficult people, how do you then build a culture around them and with them so that they don't become outsized in that. Well, their energy and intelligence is such a small, an important part of building that.
[140:04]
O
Well, we see this regularly, as you mentioned, and the reality is that we can provide counsel on a type of, of team structure and make recommendations of who can fit complementary teammates. That's what works best. We're not looking for somebody who's identical in personality and operating style to a scientific founder. And with our business, many of the individuals are scientific founders and they don't have any relevant and specific business leadership experience. So we look at building teams and making recommendations so we see fully complementary team structures and that's how it works. Also, training is key. I heard Brian and others bring it up. Our firm spent two and a half days, as we do every July in our off site. And what we say to the staffers, including those who are in their 30s, some who are in their 20s, is this is an opportunity to shape the future. In a big organization, you don't have that opportunity. What we do is handed down to us. So we're giving you the opportunity to buy in early because we value your input. These are the lessons. And I just want to say I know before we go, Scott, your book is phenomenal. It should be all of our pleasure to book Scott for book tour appearances, just as I'm helping Lee Steinberg, who's a personal friend. I need to schedule Scott Becker as a book presenter, an autograph signer, and I'm going to do that, Scott, because we love working with you, as does everybody on this call.
[141:37]
F
I totally agree with David. I finished the book over the weekend, sent Scott, a little note. It reminded me of the good old days at McGuire Woods. That is great.
[141:47]
B
I appreciate that so much and thankful for all of you joining us. I did have something that somebody had just asked the question about being a great leader. And, and I love this and I'll reference back to what I just said about Caitlin and Barry and I am more of an entrepreneur than a great leader. They're two very different things. But when I watch Caitlin and Barry, one of the things I love about their leadership style, somebody asked this reputation of being a great leader and how does somebody maintain that over a long time? And when I look at Caitlin and Barry in their roles and what they do and many other on this call would hit that same same spot. Tom Malwood would be very similar, you know, and others too. It's this constant consistency in how they approach things over a long period of time with a calmer temperament than I personally have. So I don't I look at myself as more entrepreneur than great leader. But I, but I look at people like Caitlin, Barry, Tom Marion, several others on the call that I really think of in that category, that ability to drive things forward and maintain that temperament, which I think is an incredible, incredible talent. And some of us are, we're just built. Others are built differently. So in building organizations, personally I was able to build organization certain spots and I had to turn over the role of CEO to other people by choice, not by somebody forcing me to do so because they were better at that next level of really maintaining that leadership and growing. And I think it's a fascinating thing to watch. So I really love watching different people, different types of leaders. I want to thank all of you. For me, it's a great pleasure. I know each of you closely from different avenues of life and professional life. Julie Claft, Brian Parker, Kaitlyn Zula, David Shull, what a pleasure to visit with all of you. I want to thank each of you for joining us. If people want to stay on the phone or on the webinar, we'll wrap up with 15 minutes on 10 key business and leadership concepts. Hopefully they won't put people to sleep, but we are so thankful we'll have our next sort of. We've got a webinar coming up September 10th based on the book you're welcome to On Leadership Business Concepts. People are welcome to register for that. More importantly, we'll have our next CEO and Founders Business Leadership Summit in February and we'll start putting together the agenda for that in not too long. But for me, a great Pleasure. No sponsors, no nothing. A great pleasure to visit with people and stay inspired. And I hope people come away with this. A little inspired, a little motivated, both our audience and we hope, our panelists as well. 14 great panelists, all of which I know well. So thankful to have you on. A great pleasure. Thank you so much.
[144:44]
O
Let's Brian, work on the US national tour of building great businesses. By the way, Beckers. When people, when we talk in healthcare circles about Beckers, we hear nothing but, you know Scott Becker. How do you know Becker? And I'm being honest with you, Scott, people love it. The respect for the brands that, that you've built as an entrepreneur in healthcare, they go a long way. So kudos to Scott for hosting us and everybody here. We look forward to connecting offline too.
[145:16]
B
Thank you. The real kudos go to my partner and CEO Jess Cole, who took what I started and Barry knows this because Barry Tanner used to sit on our board and built it into a much larger organization where she's able to maintain that culture that we want to have of responsiveness in doing things that audiences want, taking care of our sponsors and custom customers. So thank you so much. Thank you for the fine, nice comments. We'll let you all go if people want to stay on. We'll give people about 10, 15 minutes on building great businesses, leadership and business concepts. But, but thank you so much for joining us. What a pleasure to have all of you on. Just fantastic. Our next larger summit like this will be in February for founders, CEOs and entrepreneurs. I'm going to talk briefly through 10 business and leadership concepts that we talk about all the time, whether with CEOs, with companies that are starting up, with companies I serve on the board of and a lot more and things that we've watched over time. So let me go through 10 key concepts. First is the concept of this. We think about the five phases of a business. And for people that are doing startups or starting a business, we always think about there's this first phase is somebody has an idea. And again, I don't want to downplay the concept of an idea, but ideas are sort of like there are a billion different ideas out there. I don't view ideas as meaningless. And obviously some people come up with very big ideas. But, but at the end of the idea is the very starting point and if not meaningless, we view it as close to meaningless. The second concept we think about is someone that's taken an idea and this is more focused on founders, of course, as part of this discussion than it is on CEOs and leaders. But the next phase is someone that's taken an idea to product or service. And this jump that you've actually developed a product or service differentiates you down that funnel from literally thousands and thousands and thousands to hundreds of thousands of people. You've actually taken it to product or service. So you're beyond idea. The third phase, and this is the phase that starts to count. And I get approached constantly for people on investing or being an advisor, and this is really about the first question I ask them is where they're at on this sort of continuum of building a business. Have they actually got revenues? And revenues may be a dollar, they may be a million, they may be a hundred million. But the fact that you've started to get revenues, assuming you're not sort of the kids lemonade stand, is a huge differentiator to you have something that people might actually want or not that this isn't just a hobby, it's actually potentially a business. The next two phases we think about our profit and scale. In most businesses at some point, the next step is to go from idea to product to revenue to profits. And the idea being once you actually get the cash flow positive to profits, you could actually invest and grow a business. And that often means investing more in team members and growing out your team. The contrast is if you're venture capital funded and truly venture capital funded, the phases phase four and five are often going to be in reverse order that you're really trying to scale as much as you can, as quick as you can, profit secondary. And at some point when you plateau on scale, then you've got to look at, okay, how do you make this profitable? I've seen so many people criticize that a venture capital funded, oh, they grew to this amount of money, they stopped growing and they cut a lot of their team. Not good or bad. But that's often by design to get to a certain size and then right size to make sure you actually could be a profitable company. At that point we think about the five phases of a business. Idea to product or service to revenue to profit to scale. And again, huge differentiation from those companies that are just sort of an idea or a product or service to actual revenues. One of my favorite things to talk about is, is I'll give you two of them. One is don't ask your friends whether it's a good idea. So for example, so many people in building a business spend so much time talking to their friends, their colleagues, people that are family about is it a good idea or not. And what I find is that those people would be far better off actually talking to customers, do they want to buy the product or service or not? You could talk to 100 friends that tell you it's a great idea. And that to me is essentially meaningless. Actually getting out there and talking to customers and finding do they want what you're selling, can you get to revenues, can you get to sales, is far more important than talking to 100 different buddies, 100 different friends about is this a good idea? And we've come to the conclusion, we've come to almost a hardcore conclusion. Don't talk to your friends about your business idea, at least not for real guidance and real advice. Talk to your potential customers about your business ideas. That's one the five phases of business. And don't talk to your friends. The second concept we talk about in business is the evolution of the founder. And we talk about this again in three stages. The first phase of most founder owned businesses is the founders, essentially the coach, the bottle washer, they sort of do everything. They're the jack of all trades. That's the first stage of a business. The second stage of a business for a founder is he or she starts to hire people. But those people leverage the founder. They don't necessarily take the founder and the business further. And the big differentiation between stage two and stage three is often the quality of people that you're hiring, the quality of people that you're putting on your team. The first phase, you get to 2x, you've hired people and they're really leveraging you. You're still directing almost too much of what's going on. The third phase of a founder is you've hired people where, how we like to talk about this, everybody running a department, everybody running an area is better than you could run that area. And that's not false humility. That's where you stop being the limiting step in everything that you're doing in a business. That's what we think of as the third phase of a founder, the evolution of a founder, where you are no longer the limiting step. I remember years ago talking to a private equity fund. It was Thomas H. Lee at the time, a large fund. And they talked about the fact that I'd be sitting on my phone 10 years ago, signing off on every newsletter, going out every morning, and a very bright person at Thomas H. Lee said, this brilliant guy said, you can't run a business like that in the long run. And we already had 100 employees or so, but it's like, you got to get yourself out of being the limiting step on stuff. And when you really build the business, you really evolve as a founder. The really hard part about this is great businesses have a founder that is dispensable. You want to be dispensable as a founder over time, not indispensable. And this is something where I think about this. Dispensable versus indispensable. Being indispensable is really good for the ego. Being dispensable is really good for the business. I mean, the best things I ever did personally in businesses, I serve at a board now where I see a business has done a similar thing, they've turned over the CEO spot to somebody who's really the right person for that next level. For me, it was turning over the leadership of the law practice when we were a, you know, $50 million business to Amber Walsh. It was me a long time ago turning over the CEO spot at Becker's Healthcare to Jessica Cole. Barry Tanner was served on our board at that point. So he, he was very familiar with that evolution and, and how we did that. But those are very hard on the ego of the founder. But the whole goal is to make yourself dispensable as a, as a, as a founder. Indispensable is great for the ego. Dispensable is great for the business in two different things. The third concept we talk about in business is if you're going to really grow, you need a couple absolutely great leaders and great customers if you're going to accelerate. Great, great people, we call them ride or die people. You need to early on recognize who those people are. You need to be constantly in front of them and helping them thrive and thrive with you. And second is you need a couple great customers that sort of both you can grow with, that you could learn from and that the other parties in the industry look at and say you must be good at what you do if you're working really closely with this company in the healthcare business, the media business, this company, the legal business, or whatever business that you're in. So that's the third concept we think about. Fourth concept, and so many of these play together is the best leaders that I know are CEOs that really know their own business. They know what works. They constantly double down on what works. And this is not just customers, this is people. This is product line, service lines. The best people that I know in business, they really know their own business. I had sat down with a couple emerging leaders yesterday, brilliant young people. And the thing that I was taken away with. The best thing that I got from it was I asked them, who are your top 10 customers? They were able, without looking at spreadsheets to say, these are the top 10 customers. And that's what I look for in leaders and people. Do they know their business really well? Do they know their people really well? And then you spend a disproportionate amount of time with your best people, your best leaders, your best, your best service lines. The worst thing I see in business is you got this thing going incredibly well and you have somebody that wants to spend all their time on this thing out here. That's 5% of the business because they feel like they have to shore that up. They feel like they've got to grow that. And what I really look for in people that really know their business is that you're really doubling down on what's working. The right people, the right customers, the right service lines, and you're almost abandoning or forgetting about the other things. The most successful things that I do periodically are determine which initiatives to abandon, which ones to double down on. So that's the fourth concept is really know your business, really track what's working and what's not working and go from there. The fifth concept we think about great businesses are built around a handful of really elite people. Great, great leaders. Great. And then they've got a ton of people that are 90 percenters that are great at doing what they do. They do their job every day. They're highly reliable, they're very important. We call this love your 90 percenters. One of the worst things I've seen in business is managers, CEOs, leaders that take very good people. Think of them as your A minus, B plus people. I call them 90 percenters that are so that they spend so much time getting after the people about the 5% they don't do right. And what, what I want our managers, our leaders to do, I want them to be never gun shy in hiring. Some hires are going to go right, some are going to go wrong. But more importantly, if they've got people that are 90% or better at doing their job and what they do, we want to cherish and appreciate those people and almost abandon worrying about the 5% they don't do well unless that's something we really think they could fix or something that will make a difference in their career. But we almost want to ignore that. A similar concept we talk about, again, it's this mix of totally elite players plus 90 percenters. Another thing I talk about is I've served on several boards of directors of companies and, you know, in a couple of them that are with us today. And what I've seen in great companies is there are several a players in leadership at the company, several great leaders. So I know when I worked very closely with Tom or Barry on their boards, there were several people around them that were great leaders, not just them. The flip side, I've served on boards where there's a supernova in the organization, one supernova in the organization. And what I find in those organizations is they ultimately burn out because you can't have just one supernova Nova person. You need lots of great leaders around you. And it's this concept of building teams. It's this concept of having, you know, there's this old adage, sevens hire fives. And any leader, any CEO, has to reverse that adage. They need to hire people and have people around them that are as good as better as they are. And it's this concept of building deep leadership teams with lots of great people, not just one supernova. And I've seen both. The next concept we talk about in business is this concept of don't listen to the naysayers. Just like you can't listen to your friends about is an idea, a good idea, is a business, a good business. And the reason we say that is what you have to listen to is your customers, your potential customers. And in many businesses, we see many people, particularly in software businesses, technology businesses get very obsessed with building the product and not talking to customers. So when I've served on the boards or advisory boards of technology companies, we're very big on the concept of commercialize. Very early, very early on, you need to be testing things with customers, you need to be talking to customers. So just like you can't ask your best friends or your friends, is it a good business idea? You have to ask customers. You also can't do this. You can't listen to the naysayers. Any business that I've ever really got going in, ever really started, I've had really bright people tell me that it's a bad idea, that's too competitive, you can't do it. And again, I'm a huge believer, don't listen to your friends, don't listen to the naysayers, but test things and test them early. The next concept I'll talk about, and it really comes down to everything. One of my core business theories is you have to be niche centric, you have to be team centric, and you have to be Customer centric. Those are the three centrics we talk about and we'll add on to that product market fit. But if you're building anything significant, you better build a great team. So when we listen to people talk about venture fitness capital funded companies, the core is can those leaders build teams around them? Can they grow and build other great teammates so that you're not so reliant on that one person, those one people, because you just can't really build a serious organization without building a great team. When I watched Caitlyn build at Sea Health and Optum, what was amazing to me about Optum and Sea was the amount of great teammates around them, not just them that were all stars in their own right. And I'll use that to tie into a concept we think about in building any business that we've built or work with. We think of this concept as so building great teams. Don't listen to the naysayers. The next concept I'll touch on is this concept of what we call thrive thrive cultures. So in any business that you're in and growing, I view the huge. The example I had before me in business was a CEO leader who we used to joke a nickel for him was more important than $100 for me or for the people that worked for him. And that's the opposite of what we think of as a thrive thrive culture. The thrive thrive culture is the situation where we have a situation where in the law firm at some point the people that were driving and growing around me grew side by side with me, not subordinate to me that they thrive. I thrive. If I take great pride in the building of the legal practice is that several of those people now make a ton more money than I do at the law firm. They're in big leadership roles at the law firm. They thrived. They weren't sort of dependent upon me to thrive. It was a side by side thrive thrive culture. The same thing in the media business at Becker's Healthcare. The building of a thrive thrive culture where early on I saw the talent in the person who became CEO. She's now been CEO for 20 plus years and it sort of first she was president, then several years in I made her CEO and president and those were some of the best decisions I ever made. And the fact that from a economic perspective she makes more money than me side by side by me. The same thing by partners in the law firm firm. These are the best things that you can do is ultimately build these thrive thrive cultures where people are thriving side by side with you. Not subordinate with you. And we talk a lot about this Venn diagram. We'll come back to it at some point. Maybe not in this discussion today, but. But this concept of building thrive. Thrive cultures with your teams, your. Your. Your business colleagues, your. Your people next to you. The next concept, and only go through two or three more today, is this concept of.
[163:07]
J
Of.
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We call it the Greekist rule. And I hope he's not offended by it.
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This is.
[163:12]
B
There was an attorney that worked with me when I was a younger lawyer when I was building a practice called Lynn Gricus. And Lynn was a fantastic young lawyer and still a fantastic person. But I was so reliant on him that when he left the firm, I was in bad, bad shape. So the concept is, in building a business, building a company, you cannot be too reliant on any one great person. You've got to build teams. It's very similar with customer concentration. You can't be too reliant on any great customer. You've got to build multiple customers. And the key word here I think about when you have great people is the conjunctive word. And so you have great teammates, you want to add more great teammates. You have great customers, you want to add more great customers. One of the things I see in business is people. I see it in sports all the time. The Cubs get rid of one star, they bring in another star. That's not accretive. It's got to be. And we want multiple stars. And it's the same thing in business. We have multiple great people. We ended up calling it the Greekest rule in our book. Lynn is a fantastic person, great lawyer, but being reliant on any one person versus a team of lawyers was. Was no good. Another thing we think about, we ended up calling the Gordon rule also after somebody that worked for us, somebody needed a job very badly. We hired her at a wage that she was happy to take, but not a wage that was truly a living wage. And we thought it was a win win. This person needed a job. Her father asked me to find her a job. We found her a job. She was actually terrific. But within six, eight weeks of being with us, she left for what was a much better wage, even though we hired her when she was unemployed. It led me to the rule that I've got to pay people whatever area they're in at some place more than fair, because we never want people getting paid less than they're worth, even if they don't realize what they're worth. And I think that's something that just stuck with me. This concept that if you're going to hire people, we want everybody. I don't want organizations with thousands of people. I want organizations with less people. But everybody paid a little bit more than fair. It's a lot more than fair in how we view it and how we grow businesses. We called that the Gordon Rule. There are so many other thoughts we have about growing businesses. There's this concept that if you're going to be a founder or CEO, there's going to be some prolonged period of time. Ben Stein used to call it the ten year rule. But some significant period of time that you're going to have to be obsessed about building the business, building what you're doing, building. I don't think there's much way around it, particularly to get to a more mature business for a long period of time. For most of us that are founders, there's not guys nights out, there's not girls nights out. For some prolonged period of time, you're going to have to be truly focused heavily on building your career, building your business, whatever you're doing. And at the end of the day, like, you know, I didn't start golfing till I was 50 or so, and my golf game shows that. But for very. Because it's not very good. But for a very long period of time, it's focused on family and business, and that was about it. You couldn't be focused on too many things if you wanted to have a great career or build a great business. There are so many other things that we talk about. We'll do it in a longer webinar September 10th. I guess the only other thing I'll talk about is, well, is this concept of. There's this constant phrase of culture eat strategy for breakfast. And I have grown to hate this phrase. So I'm a believer in culture and strategy. Like, I've seen all these organizations that are beautiful places to work where nobody gets anything done. And one of the things I give great credit to, Jessica Cole, the CEO of Becker's Healthcare, is this mix of culture plus execution, culture plus strategy. You know, I do so many interviews on podcasts, and I literally joke with my producer that the next time somebody says culture eats strategy for breakfast, we're going to just cut the podcast right then. It's become such a common phrase, such a common concept, and I am a believer. Culture is very important. But it's culture plus execution. It's culture plus taking care of people. It's culture plus really smart people. It's culture plus strategy. It's not just culture eat strategy for breakfast. And I know anybody that's ever gone to a coaching class, a strategic coach class, any kind of class, comes out of this and says, culture eat strategy for breakfast. Like it's the it's the brightest thing they've ever heard in their life. And I for one, every time I hear it, I want to cut the person off and hit the gong like they used to on the Gong Show. And I'm aging myself by using the Gong show as an example. I know Julie Clapp won't know that reference because she's too young, but for the rest of us from my age, you might though the Gong Show. But whenever I hear somebody say culture eat strategy for breakfast, I literally want to hit that gong. And I know people object to me saying this, but I do believe it's true. Again, those are 10 business and leadership concepts that we think about in building businesses. I am much more thankful for our 14 panelists today joining us. I love it. I love it more than my golf foursome getting to visit with 14 people like these and hear their thoughts. It inspires me. It motivates me. I hope it does the same for our audience. Just a great pleasure for me. Our next big event like this for founders, CEOs and entrepreneurs will be in February. We do a similar virtual summit. We'll figure out if we ever motivate again to do live summits. Besides, outside of Becker's Healthcare, I don't know. But thank you so much for joining us today. What a great pleasure to be connected and to hear people. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining us for the CEO Summit. In this portion of the CEO Summit. Thank you for listening to the Becker Business and the Record Private Equity podcast. Thank you so much.
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A
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